This has the potential with IG providing enough CP to put pain on the popular lists out there.

It can light up RG or a Vexilus given enough CP for damage rerolls...if it hits, which might be the saving grace here.

So what do you think? Is this going to force people back to lascannons and proper gunlines?

Vect says No.

Can't really see how it would change the meta if it's saddled on a heavier and a more expensive knight since you can't bring too many of those. The statline of a bit punchier lascannon isn't bad, but also not the end of he world as most characters you might want to snipe out with that will survive one and hitting with more requires a hefty portion of the available guns pointed in that spot.

Knights haven't been doing too good thus far, getting a bit more oompf that doesn't really feel too overpowering is just fine.

If the barrier to entry for this weapon weren't so high, points-wise, I think it'd definitely affect the meta. Otherwise...meh.

It's not going to be a meta breaker. It's going to be a fairly pricey (in CP and likely points) way to either lay some wounds on a 9 wound character like Bobby or a Demon Price, but those missiles are going to be gold against real hard targets as well.

Even against T3 support characters, you will need to hit, wound, and then roll at 4 for damage. Even assuming a re-roll for damage, BS3+, and wounding on a 2+, you splat a four wound character 5/12 of the time, or 41%. You might bump that up with re-rolls to hit/wound, but you're not going to get to even a 50% chance.

It is 1d6 in a meta where the scary characters are above 7 wounds, and -4 AP when all the scary characters have AT LEAST 5++, with some like mort and gulliman going further. No, this doesnt change much.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Can't really see how it would change the meta if it's saddled on a heavier and a more expensive knight since you can't bring too many of those. The statline of a bit punchier lascannon isn't bad, but also not the end of he world as most characters you might want to snipe out with that will survive one and hitting with more requires a hefty portion of the available guns pointed in that spot.

Knights haven't been doing too good thus far, getting a bit more oompf that doesn't really feel too overpowering is just fine.

Sniper Kurov's Aquila, Magnifica, etc.

I don't think it's over powering, but it changes a lot of dynamics.

So... it's a lascannon that costs 2cp [so one per round] and ignores invulnerable saves?

Most characters can survive a punch from one of these; and even the ones that can't - you have to get lucky to deal enough damage.

Have to hit (66% chance success), have to wound (83% chance success), and have to roll really high damage to take out characters (17/33/50% chance success; 0% 7+ wounds). If the character has a 2+ armor save, have to get past a 6+ armor save (17% failure). Have to get past FNP (17% failure) if they have it too. -- On top of all that, you also have to deal with any relevant stratagems (-1 to hit, other defensive strategems, etc).

Yeah - that's a lot of things that have to happen to take out a character. Also, you can only target characters once per round, so... good luck.

Nevermind if the opponent just goes first and nukes any models carrying a Shieldbreaker Missile before you have a chance to fire.

These one-shot missiles will change nothing. Perhaps a game here or there, but certainly not the meta.

 vaklor4 wrote:
It is 1d6 in a meta where the scary characters are above 7 wounds, and -4 AP when all the scary characters have AT LEAST 5++, with some like mort and gulliman going further. No, this doesnt change much.

It bypasses the invu saves

fe40k wrote:

Nevermind if the opponent just goes first and nukes any models carrying a Shieldbreaker Missile before you have a chance to fire.

So it will force more gunlines?

This sounds like a broken very bad idea to shoe horn in a counter to the everything gets an invulnerable saves game that GW have been playing for the last 6 months.

Hopefully they keep it confirmed to the very biggest knights at a points cost that doesn't see them being spammed or its going to remove what little non infantry spam units remaining from the meta.

"We really hate cowards who hide instead of fearlessly facing their foes! Get out here and fight like a man!"

-Tubby guy sitting in an armchair eating cheetos in the center of a giant 500 ton robot

Man, if the IK fluff included more goofy, making fun of Battletech stuff like this I would definitely like them better

Impact on the meta? Eh. Maybe. I can see soup lists throwing one of these guys in. The big problem with them is the lack of pretty much any kind of synergy - you can't buff them with psychic powers or use strats on them like you can with a baneblade. Maybe the freeblade rules they hinted at fix that?

Sadly, even if one of those big suckers uses Rotate Ion Shields, a normal 2k point army's worth of Dark Reapers with Doom on it one-rounds it.

Yes, I see this as a Meta Changer for sure. A slightly lucky roll, and your opponent's support characters are gone, while yours are still alive. I guess it depends on how expensive a Shieldbreaker Missile is. If it's 50 points or less, it'll be a meta-changer, as then it'll be killing things worth around equal or potentially double its points cost. If it's 100 or more points, it's unlikely to be a meta-changer, because you'll need multiple to reliably take down a character, and then you're sometimes spending 4 times the points of the character to deal with them. Anywhere inbetween there and it's going to be extremely annoying for casual gamers who build lists around support characters and can't afford to shift gears, but will still see enough play that they will be told they have to learn deal with it in a bunch of their games if they want to be "good".

Even if it doesn't kill it places characters like Ahriman in peril of perils. I'm interested to see how this develops.

Not a game-breaker, but a massive consideration for the meta. Sniping sorcerers, buffing characters, characters who have a CP-recovery function, etc. Taking care of pesky assassins, killing supremely weak characters like Eldar ones, or - as stated, targeting powerful characters hiding behind invulns, etc.

If Dark Eldar try to Vect it...they'll eventually lose, since the Imperials could farm far more CP and spend it cheaper/easier in most situations. Likewise the Dark Eldar having a 2+ invulnerable would hate this weapon if successful. Tie it to a damage re-roll and you're making some good use of it.

I do think this is a stratagem you'd see fired every turn when available.

What keeps this in check is 1 missile per turn. Otherwise it would be nasty

First of all. RG isn't meta - so scratch that out. About the only thing this is going to be good against is killing spirit seers turn 1. Which are probably going to have vect protection and probably be in a wave serpent. It will at least be a good way to run through eldar command points.

I think from what I read you are going to have to sacrifice a predator auto cannon with d3 damage instead of flat 3 (literally the same profile with d3 instead of flat 3) Yeah...no way I'm giving that up for a 1 use weapon.

I think the real meta changer is the 3d6 auto hit range 18" ap-2 flat 2 damage weapon. -1 to hit modifiers aren't going to be nearly as useful with this bad boy running around.

Orks hate that. Weirdboy's are essential and so are kff/painboys. Cp farm is pretty common so that's out. Thing with support stuff are killing them is often more than points indicate

Still has to hit, still has to wound. And, even after all of that, still has a 1/3 chance to deal 1 or 2 damage.

We already have the Vindicare Assassin, and you can bring 3 of them, and they don't see play.

Has an 11% chance to hit, wound, and then roll a 6. Worth noting some characters in cover will still get a save with -4 AP, and any rolls to ignore wounds..


A neat option, but not meta changing. Unliky to one shot any character. A t3 4 wound character would have a 35% chance to kill in one shot with this, considering low CPs will likely be a thing for armies with knights- it's really not meta changing.

It's a one shot weapon. It's not even up to Deathstrike levels of evil, but has the same limitation. They could take 2 deathstrikes and have twice the firing rate for fewer points.

One thing I do like about this missile is that it completely invalidates impenetrable forcefields, sunders the mightiest armor, and completely ignores everything...except for the 1/6 chance per wound for my Dark Eldar to take that missile and like it.

kinky space elf masochism conquers all.

I think it will see play.

I agree the odds are not great - even with a reroll - so I was initially in the "this kind of sucks" department. (It still might suck if it costs a fortune and the other guns are better for their points.)

But that time you get turn 1 warlord, and/or shut down your opponent's CP farming ability? Going to feel pretty nice.

Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

I might be missing something, there are probably perks and stratagems - but 700 points doesn't buy you the defensive stats of 2.5 Predators with a moderate invul.

Cards on the table - I don't like knights, I kind of like the fact they suck and so don't tend to appear on tables - but I can't believe GW would do that.
Leaving aside a calculation on damage, what is a loaded out Storm Surge? Around 400 points? I guess you can say 8 more wounds, one point more toughness, but I am not seeing it.

 Marmatag wrote:
Still has to hit, still has to wound. And, even after all of that, still has a 1/3 chance to deal 1 or 2 damage.

We already have the Vindicare Assassin, and you can bring 3 of them, and they don't see play.

Hit is issue but remember rerolls. If hit and wounded weirdboy is 75% insta gibbed and frankly even 2 wounds put him on risky spot. IG warlord with regeneration CP is also pretty likely gibbled if hit and wounded.

It's not broken but some support characters are very vulnerable and some of those are crutches for army. Orks without da jump will be lot worse suddenly.

Remember people there is a whole book of strategems, warlord traits, and relics just for a handful of knight models.

I am quite sure knights will be cp hogs. But I full expect to see Guard catachan leman Russ armies with a castalan model in the center.
Get first turn move knight up with your tanks or infantry as an assault screen. Kill off support chacters not RG but psykers, company commanders the 3-4 wound or less buffers. Opponents turn give all those support units a 5++ or use the obvious strategems that will make this knight a 3++ or 4++ unit. Once your opponent is done focusing on this monstrousity and it survives a turn. Get it right inside your opponents deployment so it bloes up by his units. This knight just needs to survive 1-2 turns to do what you need it to do. Which is be the focus of your opponent. Heck even the plasma gun is useful to explode the model when and where you want.

Rather expensive platform and one trick pony spring to mind.

That is not going to be breaking much, let alone the meta.

Nice to have in order to finish pesky sub 10 wound dudes, but really, for the points this thing will cost?

Tyel wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

I might be missing something, there are probably perks and stratagems - but 700 points doesn't buy you the defensive stats of 2.5 Predators with a moderate invul.

Cards on the table - I don't like knights, I kind of like the fact they suck and so don't tend to appear on tables - but I can't believe GW would do that.
Leaving aside a calculation on damage, what is a loaded out Storm Surge? Around 400 points? I guess you can say 8 more wounds, one point more toughness, but I am not seeing it.

This new super knight is going to cost at least 700 points. Storm surges cost 400ish depending on build but it has no where near the firepower of this knight - it's only t7 with 0 close combat ability too.

I think the preferred build for the super knight with be 4 mini battle cannons super flamer and super plasma.

My guess is that this may be an attempt to make an all-knight list at least somewhat viable, giving Knights access to play with certain mechanics normally left to distinct specialists (like assassins) for the couple of instances where they'd need *something* in order to be viable. It's potentially very powerful, but practically its value is more psychological I think with the high variability involved, especially depending on the type of opponent you're facing, they may not have any big important juicy targets for something like this.

*laughs in T'au*

 Vaktathi wrote:
My guess is that this may be an attempt to make an all-knight list at least somewhat viable, giving Knights access to play with certain mechanics normally left to distinct specialists (like assassins) for the couple of instances where they'd need *something* in order to be viable.

Not something I'd considered but totally makes sense with them getting their own codex and all. Even if they're a little pricey it would be an idea to maybe give some to one of your knights for a 'just in case'.

another thing to consider is a pure IK army lacks psykers, thge missile isn't that much better then a smite in many cases

This could change some things at the FLGS level. From an ITC competitive standpoint most tables should have ruins so you can easily block LoS without losing too much character utility. Psykers would have it worse but ruins should let you have at least one turn in before you even have the risk of losing one to this stratagem.

I'd also add that looking at this weapon in isolation is problematic. Missiles and monster flamer and harpoon gun and stratagems and a buffed version of the stomp attacks and it will be a game changer imho. Let's wait and see the whole picture. Of course speculation is still fun though :-) I GW are not going to release a new model at this price point and it be a dud. It will probably be marginally overpowered with stats so that it sells well.

It's a slightly better Medusa Siege Cannon from the looks of it

Alpharius Walks wrote:
This could change some things at the FLGS level. From an ITC competitive standpoint most tables should have ruins so you can easily block LoS without losing too much character utility. Psykers would have it worse but ruins should let you have at least one turn in before you even have the risk of losing one to this stratagem.

Strat ignores los too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

I might be missing something, there are probably perks and stratagems - but 700 points doesn't buy you the defensive stats of 2.5 Predators with a moderate invul.

Cards on the table - I don't like knights, I kind of like the fact they suck and so don't tend to appear on tables - but I can't believe GW would do that.
Leaving aside a calculation on damage, what is a loaded out Storm Surge? Around 400 points? I guess you can say 8 more wounds, one point more toughness, but I am not seeing it.

This new super knight is going to cost at least 700 points. Storm surges cost 400ish depending on build but it has no where near the firepower of this knight - it's only t7 with 0 close combat ability too.

I think the preferred build for the super knight with be 4 mini battle cannons super flamer and super plasma.

Rumours say you can field 3 of those barely in 1850.


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BrianDavion wrote:
another thing to consider is a pure IK army lacks psykers, thge missile isn't that much better then a smite in many cases

You mean apart from being long range, ignore LOS, and shoot what you want rather than closest?-)


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Alpharius Walks wrote:
This could change some things at the FLGS level. From an ITC competitive standpoint most tables should have ruins so you can easily block LoS without losing too much character utility. Psykers would have it worse but ruins should let you have at least one turn in before you even have the risk of losing one to this stratagem.

That strategem means it ignores not only character rule but LOS so ruin is useless. Only way to give 100% protection is be inside transport. Which means also no CP recycling or casting until you come out.

i dont see how this will change anything.

problem whit mono IK is the hefty price tag of the knights meaning you cant bring many of them and they dont require alot of effort to take down whit the huge amount of anti tank units every army has.
plus how is a mono IK list even fun to play agasint if you bring it to the FLGS for some drop in games?

IK belongs in apocalypse games, not standard 1750-2000p games IMO.

Well they are getting point drops. 12% for crusader for example. 3 knights plus ig isn't impossible.

As for fun...old dated view. You yourself said they aren't that tough. One could ask with more valid reasons what fun is facing eldars

 Daedalus81 wrote:
This has the potential with IG providing enough CP to put pain on the popular lists out there.

It can light up RG or a Vexilus given enough CP for damage rerolls...if it hits, which might be the saving grace here.

So what do you think? Is this going to force people back to lascannons and proper gunlines?

Guillamen still gets a 5+ in cover.


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 TommyBoy13 wrote:

I'd also add that looking at this weapon in isolation is problematic. Missiles and monster flamer and harpoon gun and stratagems and a buffed version of the stomp attacks and it will be a game changer imho. Let's wait and see the whole picture. Of course speculation is still fun though :-) I GW are not going to release a new model at this price point and it be a dud. It will probably be marginally overpowered with stats so that it sells well.

GW doesn't know enough about the game to release something deliberately over or underpowered. At least not without getting a unanimous 'yeah, that's op' from the community.

My immediate thought was that this is horrifically overpowered, since it’s broadly ‘Flip a coin. If heads, your opponent’s Warlord dies.’

On further consideration though, I think I’m looking at it through the lens of my own army. Black Templars are utterly dependent on 4-6 Wound support characters to operate even in a friendly environment. Being able to bypass character targeting protection, 2+, 3++/4++ and line of sight to snipe out a character from a horde and (with a CP reroll backup) have a not inconsiderable chance of one-shotting the crutch holding up the entire army just feels unfair.

My faction being a garbage fire shouldn’t mean that other factions can’t have nice things, though. So good for Knights that they got something scary. I don’t think it’ll make a huge impact on the meta - since there isn’t really anything that can counter it easily so just hoping for the best seems the best strategy - but it’ll certainly mess up some casual games the world over.

kombatwombat wrote:
My immediate thought was that this is horrifically overpowered, since it’s broadly ‘Flip a coin. If heads, your opponent’s Warlord dies.’

On further consideration though, I think I’m looking at it through the lens of my own army. Black Templars are utterly dependent on 4-6 Wound support characters to operate even in a friendly environment. Being able to bypass character targeting protection, 2+, 3++/4++ and line of sight to snipe out a character from a horde and (with a CP reroll backup) have a not inconsiderable chance of one-shotting the crutch holding up the entire army just feels unfair.

My faction being a garbage fire shouldn’t mean that other factions can’t have nice things, though. So good for Knights that they got something scary. I don’t think it’ll make a huge impact on the meta - since there isn’t really anything that can counter it easily so just hoping for the best seems the best strategy - but it’ll certainly mess up some casual games the world over.

Yeah orks are in similar boat as without several of our support characters orks gets decked.

OTOH knights looks to be rather vulnerable against hordes which orks currently are(they don't have even close of viable non-horde build) so maybe that evens out? Plus of course orks still are to get their own codex so new codex maybe reduces their dependance on holy trio of da jump/kff/painboy.

Depends if Barons let us reroll, how many other modifiers there are, etc.

You can only fire it once per game. Also, why not just pick the sniepr who has the exsact same weapon basically?

Better AP, D6 rather than D3 Damage and no LoS required maybe?

Also, this basically makes Orks the only faction with no sniper now. XD


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kombatwombat wrote:
Better AP, D6 rather than D3 Damage and no LoS required maybe?

But I can likely feild 5 of them for every single knight and also get the odd d6 when you role a 6. Also hits and wound on a 2 basically and at -3 ap ignoring invulnerables a lot of units are going to auto die. Remember, a knight could still role ac1 on that d6.

Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

But you still got that 80" weapon on yah, or those 3d3 auto hiting 2d flamers or maybe that thing that can do like 50 wounds. Xd

 lolman1c wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

But you still got that 80" weapon on yah, or those 3d3 auto hiting 2d flamers or maybe that thing that can do like 50 wounds. Xd

Yes, but this is not about the knight, we are talking about this missile.

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

You know that's really disingenuous to day 600 points to kill a charictor as if thats all your doing what are both arm weapons, carapace autocannons and multimeltas? Doing?

Ok the harpoon is short range but S16 -6AP D11-13, that's enough to one shot a predator or leman russ so 160+ points back from one weapon, a 3D6 shot S7 -2Ap 2D weapon won't have a hard time finding targets that will bring back over 100 points worth, you, still have 2 multimelta and carpace autocannons to push the points killed to over 300 from a single round of shooting before you play charictor assasin.

And you can bet even with the IG CP farm knights lists will be in the 8-9 drop zone so have a good chance of going first.

 p5freak wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

But you still got that 80" weapon on yah, or those 3d3 auto hiting 2d flamers or maybe that thing that can do like 50 wounds. Xd

Yes, but this is not about the knight, we are talking about this missile.

But you're not only going to fire the missile and then never use any of its other weapons. So saying something is 700pts but only kills a 100pts model is ignoring the other hundred or so points it will also kill alongside the character. If anything this is a bonus to an already strong unit.

I mean 1 if it's weapons has a chance to fire twice if you use a strat and straight up do 10 damage. That's basically an auto delte of most tank hnits like rhinos.

 lolman1c wrote:
You can only fire it once per game. Also, why not just pick the sniepr who has the exsact same weapon basically?

Apart from that sniper being one model which isn't as tough it also doesn't cause d6 wounds. Oh and you need special detachment that costs CP or multiples of them. This one slots among other knights nicely.

Not to mention that vindicare has mini volcano cannon, boosted up plasma gun, boasts T8/3+/5++ and 28 wounds since when? It's not like those missiles are even primary weapons of that knight but secondaries...


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 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

Ah yes that 600-700 pts obviously is not doing anything else. Not like 11.666 wounds against most T7 stuff per turn plus what you can do 2d6 S8 -3 D2 shots and that's not even through weapon list.

Yep yep. 600-700 just for one missile. Obviously. How have I been so blind!


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 p5freak wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty much useless. Spend ~600-700 pts. and probably 3 CP (1 for re-roll) for a ~25% chance to kill a 100-200 pts. character ? Ridiculous.

But you still got that 80" weapon on yah, or those 3d3 auto hiting 2d flamers or maybe that thing that can do like 50 wounds. Xd

Yes, but this is not about the knight, we are talking about this missile.

So apart from a) you need to look package b) why you are then looking at price of non-missile to talk about missile? You are doing double standard. Take price of knight and complain missile suck because you pay for stuff you don't use.

Well gee. I complain Guillimann's shooting attack is too weak because it's not worth the 400 pts or so he costs.

 godardc wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
It is 1d6 in a meta where the scary characters are above 7 wounds, and -4 AP when all the scary characters have AT LEAST 5++, with some like mort and gulliman going further. No, this doesnt change much.

It bypasses the invu saves

I think he's referring to FnP and it's equivalents.

Big question though... will the ork stompa get a huge upgrade to equal him out with this new knight?

Well with points he needs to be better. But that's for ork codex. Now impossible to tell. GW might just as well nerf it.

This thread is about the missile, not the knight. If you want to discuss the knight do it somewhere else. In order to use that missile you have to spend something like 600-700 pts.

 lolman1c wrote:
Big question though... will the ork stompa get a huge upgrade to equal him out with this new knight?

Or the Wraithknight?

Hahahah...moh man! I super want GW to nerf the stompa (a 1k points model that often dies turn 1 XD) just to see the look on everyones face!


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 p5freak wrote:
This thread is about the missile, not the knight. If you want to discuss the knight do it somewhere else. In order to use that missile you have to spend something like 600-700 pts.

I order to use a tact marines squad in a 2k tournament you have to bring 2k points. Doesn't mean a single tact marine squad should be worth 2k points.

 p5freak wrote:
This thread is about the missile, not the knight. If you want to discuss the knight do it somewhere else. In order to use that missile you have to spend something like 600-700 pts.

If you want to dismiss missile because of 600-700 pts you MUST factor in knight. End of story.

"Heavy bolter on shadowsword sucks! I need to pay 400 pts for it!"

You either don't bring knight into talk including point cost of knight or you look at the unit. No arqument about that.

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This thread is about the missile, not the knight. If you want to discuss the knight do it somewhere else. In order to use that missile you have to spend something like 600-700 pts.

If you want to dismiss missile because of 600-700 pts you MUST factor in knight. End of story.

"Heavy bolter on shadowsword sucks! I need to pay 400 pts for it!"

You either don't bring knight into talk including point cost of knight or you look at the unit. No arqument about that.

Damn man! My baneblades cc attack sucks! Can't believe I paid half my armies points for this!

You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes, but at the same time you can't call it worthless if it also has the ability to meta change in other ways. For example, he 1 shots your Ork character Mek with kff and then with his other weapons, decimates your entire battle wagon force that has now lost its 5+invuln. Therefore, this weapon has changed the meta by working together with the other 700pts worth of weapons.

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes. And then you need to factor in what ELSE it provides. You don't take those big knights for the missile. They aren't even primaries of the knight! Secondaries. Read that. S.e.c.o.n.d.a.r.y. It's support weapon of the knight.

So you can't go "600-650 pts(supposedly you can field 3 of those big knights in 1850 pts list), missile sucks!". Missile might suck but it's not because it's 600-700 which it isn't. That 600-650 gives you tons of other use. Snipe the weirdboy with da jump that orks live by. Then blow up that battlewagon with mini volcano cannon. And plasma pays world of hurt to something else while other secondaries thin infantry while being invulnerable to ork shooting. If orks comes close...Well still likely tossing 12 attacks that will kill boyz on hit on 2+ while stepping out of combats and still shoot&charge. Orks won't like any of that and losing weirdboys really hurt. If those knights comes common orks are forced to max out on 3 weirdboys fast.

If the knight is worth taking as a package then you'll see missiles and if they are common enough and do something they are changing meta. Not because missile is worth 600-650 pts but because the knight with missile is worth it.

Otherwise I complain my heavy bolter on shadowsword sucks because I need to pay 400 pts for it. Give me assault 10 S10 -4 D6 stats for them! Surely I deserve that for 400 pts!

Looking at missile without point cost is dishonest but equally dishonest if not even more is looking point cost without looking at everything it gives for you.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah orks are in similar boat as without several of our support characters orks gets decked.

OTOH knights looks to be rather vulnerable against hordes which orks currently are(they don't have even close of viable non-horde build) so maybe that evens out? Plus of course orks still are to get their own codex so new codex maybe reduces their dependance on holy trio of da jump/kff/painboy.

This isn't new though, at least not for me. Tzeench daemons and TS can already snipe 4W support characters at will, many craftworld players have three units of snipers for their battalion and then there is that eldar warlord trait which allows an autarch with a reaper launcher to target characters at will.

Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah orks are in similar boat as without several of our support characters orks gets decked.

OTOH knights looks to be rather vulnerable against hordes which orks currently are(they don't have even close of viable non-horde build) so maybe that evens out? Plus of course orks still are to get their own codex so new codex maybe reduces their dependance on holy trio of da jump/kff/painboy.

This isn't new though, at least not for me. Tzeench daemons and TS can already snipe 4W support characters at will, many craftworld players have three units of snipers for their battalion and then there is that eldar warlord trait which allows an autarch with a reaper launcher to target characters at will.

Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

Don't know about tzeentch. For eldars yeah snipers are annoying but they aren't automatic death dealer(how many you need to kill in average?) and crucially they need LOS. Terrain here often allows hiding one character from LOS if I'm carefull. This one I'm 100% at the mercy of the opponent's dices period.

Not to mention snipers are bit easier to take out for orks than that knight. Yesterday had space wolf snipers. I actually got them killed so had to survive 8 sniper shots which I did. This knight? Only way to do that is basically get into close combat with enough stuff that I tear it apart. Frankly not confident I CAN do that so ork best bet might be ignore it.

It's 2 missiles. That's 2 turn. Most games don't really go on further than 3 turns especially meaningfully. 8th ed is alpha strike game. 2 batteries of guns, 1 battery of missiles.

 Jidmah wrote:


Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

This is exactly it. The strength of the missile can be judged in context of what it might replace. But the OP is suggesting (or asking) that the existence of its rules changes the meta. This being that character sniping is valuable due to the impact that characters have. I think it is a meta changer but its impact is probably insignificant to the major competitive armies (Vect). I'm already thinking of list ideas with this and a vindicare or two which will really be dangerous. Not that you're even guaranteed to take out characters but that combo will do it well.

Any tournament list thats capable of taking out a Primarch in one turn will be dangerous to this knight and it probably won't survive 4 turns to really be impactful with shieldbreakers so the other options are probably better for dealing with the threats to the knight.

Definitely not a meta changer. It's a one shot weapon on a model that will not appear in the vast majority of games of 40k.

^^^ exactly - though it looks like the super knight might have the option to take the 1 use missles over the top missle launcher (I think it's a heavy 3 missle) It might be better off to save points as a 3 shot crack missile isn't that great when you already have 6 other heavy weapons. Keeping cost low might be preferable.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

This is exactly it. The strength of the missile can be judged in context of what it might replace. But the OP is suggesting (or asking) that the existence of its rules changes the meta. This being that character sniping is valuable due to the impact that characters have. I think it is a meta changer but its impact is probably insignificant to the major competitive armies (Vect). I'm already thinking of list ideas with this and a vindicare or two which will really be dangerous. Not that you're even guaranteed to take out characters but that combo will do it well.

Any tournament list thats capable of taking out a Primarch in one turn will be dangerous to this knight and it probably won't survive 4 turns to really be impactful with shieldbreakers so the other options are probably better for dealing with the threats to the knight.

4 turns? Games are over by turn 4. Doesn't need to survive 4 turns. You don't even bring 4+ missiles for it. If you plan on spending more than 2 turns killing with something or killing something it's flawed plan to begin with.

Two and Autocannons might be the best bet, since either it or your prime targets will be dead, and a knight army wont have more than 6-9 cp.

Yeah I figure that's going to be be my default loadout for knights. Though magnets ensure I can field any if I so choose. But frankly if I feel like I need more missiles I might be looking at second knight first. Alpha, alpha, alpha. 4 turns is 2 turns too much minimum in 8th ed.

Assuming your playing a 2k game you have the inevitable guard CP farm for 195 points, 2 of these at 600 and a mini knight ar 160 leaves just shy of 450 for dawneagle dbags.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Definitely not a meta changer. It's a one shot weapon on a model that will not appear in the vast majority of games of 40k.

If anything I am constantly impressed at the ability for tournament players to afford these things. Locally it might not be an issue, but if it shakes out we'll see a bunch of these at the next GT.

Not to mention that the terrain presumably gives it max shots for ~200 points.

tneva82 wrote:
For eldars yeah snipers are annoying but they aren't automatic death dealer(how many you need to kill in average?)

15 path finders will kill one warphead each turn. Add in the sniping autarch and they can reliably kill KFF meks and pain boyz as well.

and crucially they need LOS. Terrain here often allows hiding one character from LOS if I'm carefull.

Sure, then they just kill another one. Especially the KFF is not going to be out of LOS a whole lot, and warpheads can't smite without LOS. And even if you do hide them out of LOS, a hemlock jumps next to the character and just kills it. Eldar have absolutely no problem wiping two support characters per turn.

This one I'm 100% at the mercy of the opponent's dices period.

This one is complete garbage compared to TS psychic powers. Magnus (or any combination of TS psykers) can Infernal Gaze/Bolt of Change/Firestorm of Tzeench any character of their choice at 24" and cause an average of six mortal wounds to it.
Two vindicares also vastly outperform that missile and yet see no play whatsoever.
Both for exactly zero CP and at least 200 points less than the knight.

Not to mention snipers are bit easier to take out for orks than that knight. Yesterday had space wolf snipers. I actually got them killed so had to survive 8 sniper shots which I did. This knight? Only way to do that is basically get into close combat with enough stuff that I tear it apart. Frankly not confident I CAN do that so ork best bet might be ignore it.

It's 2 missiles. That's 2 turn. Most games don't really go on further than 3 turns especially meaningfully. 8th ed is alpha strike game. 2 batteries of guns, 1 battery of missiles.

You really need to decide. Either the game ends after turn 2, then orks can never kill anything that's not sitting out front, or losing a weapon system by turn 3 matters.
If games end by turn 2, then you cannot handle properly wrapped snipers either.

You're really making mountains out of molehills here. The thing you are afraid of is already all over the game.

There's the rumour the "knight terrain" lets you "reload" these missles. So if you have a Castellan you can just sit back and set up a kill zone and let the other knights cover the blind spots

No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

 vipoid wrote:
No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

It will eat CP really fast. Especially when you'll want to rotate ion shields, etc. Of course there are easy ways around that problem, too.

 vipoid wrote:
No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Too random to be a meta warping weapon IMO, but it sure seems like a huge NPE tool.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes, but at the same time you can't call it worthless if it also has the ability to meta change in other ways. For example, he 1 shots your Ork character Mek with kff and then with his other weapons, decimates your entire battle wagon force that has now lost its 5+invuln. Therefore, this weapon has changed the meta by working together with the other 700pts worth of weapons.

That's not meta changing because statistically it won't one shot anything with 4 or more wounds. Given that tournaments span 4+ games the chance that it happens once or twice over 6 games is not meta changing. Things that change the meta are reliable. This is like building an army where if you go first you likely win, but if you go second you likely lose, which over 4+ games is bad. However the odds of one shotting a character are worse than the odds of going firstm

 lolman1c wrote:
You can only fire it once per game. Also, why not just pick the sniepr who has the exsact same weapon basically?

It comes with 4.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Tau have basically unlimited HS slots. 3 battalions is standard at 2000. They are T4 with -1 to hit. Not exactly easy to kill off.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

I might be missing something, there are probably perks and stratagems - but 700 points doesn't buy you the defensive stats of 2.5 Predators with a moderate invul.

Cards on the table - I don't like knights, I kind of like the fact they suck and so don't tend to appear on tables - but I can't believe GW would do that.
Leaving aside a calculation on damage, what is a loaded out Storm Surge? Around 400 points? I guess you can say 8 more wounds, one point more toughness, but I am not seeing it.

This new super knight is going to cost at least 700 points. Storm surges cost 400ish depending on build but it has no where near the firepower of this knight - it's only t7 with 0 close combat ability too.

I think the preferred build for the super knight with be 4 mini battle cannons super flamer and super plasma.

Current rumors say the super knight will be about 615, not 700. See News and Rumor thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Tau have basically unlimited HS slots. 3 battalions is standard at 2000. They are T4 with -1 to hit. Not exactly easy to kill off.

I dunno, my Storm Shield Custodian Guard seem pretty easy to clean up with T5 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to Hit. T4 with -1 doesn't seem so bad.

On topic with the missile, I think it'll adjust the meta, but I don't think it oes so far as to break it or anything.

Ugh. 8th edition rules are just face palm after face palm.

The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

Nope this wont change anything, reason being.
A) you can only shoot one a turn
B) it does D6 damage. D6 damage weapons are way to unreliable. you have a 33% chance to 1 shot a character, but a a66% chance to only scare him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only way the knight codex is going to be worth even looking at is if knights drop by 100 points. Other wise, they are gonna be gak

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

The knights codex isn't bad, it's got some seriously powerful units and point's drops across the board.

The armiger's having some clauses for their use in detachments is an odd decision.

But no imperial army is struggling for CP with the IG CP farm battalion exsisting.

8th edition is the soup edition, and GW main studio keeps making game desigb decisions to drive that hope.
If they force people into needing to own IG battalions and shield captains they can make mono armies in 9th edition to restart the buy new units to be competitive cycle.

Ice_can wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

The knights codex isn't bad, it's got some seriously powerful units and point's drops across the board.

The armiger's having some clauses for their use in detachments is an odd decision.

But no imperial army is struggling for CP with the IG CP farm battalion exsisting.

8th edition is the soup edition, and GW main studio keeps making game desigb decisions to drive that hope.
If they force people into needing to own IG battalions and shield captains they can make mono armies in 9th edition to restart the buy new units to be competitive cycle.

Again, unless base knights drop by 100 points, they are not going to be worth taking
A renegade knight with 2 rapid file battle cannons, 3 heavy stubbers cost 532 points
2 tank commanders who can issue orders to one another, and take regiment bonues which let them do gak like reroll the total number of hits, costs 500 for the same amount of shots, same T, iirc same wounds, same BS, the only thing they dont get is a 5++ which ooooooo most things are saving on a 5++ anyway now a days.
or hell a shadowsword is about the same cost and can remove a basic knight from the table each turn.

Knights are just crap right now especially with their degrading profile. The second a knight gets dropped a profile it looses so much of its power.

It can only fire one missile a turn. For 600+ points. And it will eat all your CP's to be effective.

Could be a meta changer if we see more character sniping style rules in the future, but right now, this is a pretty "meh" missile. You still have to roll to hit, and you still have to roll to wound, and you do d6 wounds, which on average, will be a 3 that can just as easily be a 1 or a 6. That's 2-3 CP right there, not to mention the 2 CP to use the Stratagem in the first place. Things that come to mind: "Hope you take out that key model that you just wasted all your CP on", "Better make it count because I'm only going to get one shot at this" and "That one model is the linchpin for my opponent's entire army! If I use all my CP's to take him out, I'll definitely win the game!"

Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

I’d rather have another autocannon turret than the Missiles, even at 2d3 shots it’s still more reliable.

SJ

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

Why take it though, i can take 2 vindicare assassins for cheaper and have them be more effective at character popping.

The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

no base shadow sword is 404 points. Im hearing everywhere the big boy knights are 600 points. The shadow sword does not need to do 28 wounds, just needs to do 14 to drop it a profile then its gimped not to metion as i said, i can easy fit 2 shadow swords into a list, and drop knights. Getting it to a 3++ is great but look how many of your CP you will be spending to do that.

I want knights to be good, but they are just to expensive for what they bring to the table.

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

People keep saying this, and it's the wrong way to look at it. How many points must you field before you have the OPTION of paying for two of these missiles? 600+ points. Once you break that threshold, then for another X amount of points, you can replace the TL Battle Cannons with two of these missiles that can only be fired once per turn, no matter how many you buy. I have no idea why you would ever purchase more than six, but apparently you can in the codex. And rumors say you can bring along a 200 point terrain piece that will allow you to reload the missiles as long as you don't move or shoot for the previous turn.

No, it's not 600 points. It's probably something like 50 points that you will spend ALL your Command Points in one turn to make it effective. 8th edition makes no distinction between "Primary Weapon" and "Secondary Weapon". If the model has multiple weapons, it can shoot ALL OF THEM unless some other rule says otherwise. So which is better? A one shot wonder missile that costs extra points and will burn all your CP's and still have a chance of failure, or a TL Battle Cannon that can fire every turn and requires no CP's to use?

"Nice to have" is a Power fist on a Character model. Or Melta Bombs, or upgrading a heavy bolter to an assault cannon. A Hunter-Killer missile is a nice to have. Nice to have doesn't require you to spend more points on an already expensive model and then spend 2-4 Command Points and a stratagem on top of it to make it work. The player has to make the determination that the TL Battle Cannons > One Shot Wonder Missile for X more points. Hint: It's not.

If I'm playing a 2,000 point game and the best I can do is 1900 points due to the way the army construction works out for a Knight list, then I might consider taking one of these Missile Launchers as a threat to my opponent, with no intention of ever using it to snipe his Warlord. I'd use it on a unit that is about to engage a key friendly unit. Maybe a tank low on HP. Even then, it would be more of a throw away gesture then anything else, and I wouldn't expect it to do anything. I especially would not take a Stratagem for it unless there was nothing else worth taking, or spend more than 1 Command Point on it with as few CP's as it's looking like the Knights will get.

I would advance the idea that any army that relies on a single model with less then six wounds to carry the whole army is a very poorly made army.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

no base shadow sword is 404 points. Im hearing everywhere the big boy knights are 600 points. The shadow sword does not need to do 28 wounds, just needs to do 14 to drop it a profile then its gimped not to metion as i said, i can easy fit 2 shadow swords into a list, and drop knights. Getting it to a 3++ is great but look how many of your CP you will be spending to do that.

I want knights to be good, but they are just to expensive for what they bring to the table.

depends on which way the knight player does it and videos with points are saying sub 600pts for the most expensive version of big knight cheapest config is supposedly 530ish.

In a pure Knight list you are not going to have the CP to spam missiles - and the probability of it going off even with a reroll is low anyway. I thought they might doll out the CP (like, 3 CP per big knight or something) but its clear they don't.

But off the top of my head cheapest IG Brigade with CP farm, 3 Custodes Bike Captains & a Valiant is going to be very close to 1750 points will have plenty of CP to burn. Could potentially be an interesting army if you wanted to go that route. 2 CP to potentially get first turn warlord is almost certainly worth a go.

Agree that the flamer relic is possibly an auto-take. Its good versus everything and borders on making you unchargeable.

Not really seeing why the Shadowsword is the terror of the earth.
6*2/3*35/36*1/2*7=13.6 wounds.
Good chance of doing worse than this - and the Knight is almost certainly going to be Hawkshroud, so not degraded until its on 6 wounds (I think?).

I mean sure you can take 3 and more or less guarantee killing a Knight a turn. Problem is your next game is going to be against a guy with nothing worth shooting a volcano cannon at. Enjoy killing 3 Orks a turn for 404 points.

Tbh I'm so not convinced on these missiles that I'm kind of sad to see the boxes will each contain 2 turret and 2 missiles, meaning you can't take 3 turrets if you buy only one.

Shadowssord has 6 shots, on average, hitting on 3s. 4 hits, wounding on 2s rerolling, for 35/9. 5+ save makes that 70/27, times 7 for damage, or 490/27. Decimals, that is 18.15.

No idea where you got 13.6 from.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Shadowssord has 6 shots, on average, hitting on 3s. 4 hits, wounding on 2s rerolling, for 35/9. 5+ save makes that 70/27, times 7 for damage, or 490/27. Decimals, that is 18.15.

No idea where you got 13.6 from.

Because the Knight player is definitely going to use rotate ion shields when you target him with a volcano cannon to get a 4++. At least in the first couple of turns.
6*2/3*35/36*1/2=35/18. Times 7=13.61.

Sure you can play games with this, targeting one knight with the volcano cannon, and one knight with another - or loads of lascannons/basilisks/whatever - but I am not convinced you can do that and have an especially competitive army. Its just an anti-Knight skew of your own.

And there is a good chance they will have ion bulkwark for a natural 4++ so they will get a 3++. Now you are only doing 9.07 wounds.
This is possibly an abuse of statistics - since there is clearly upside too - but if you suffer 4 wounds you have a 20% chance not to fail a single 3++. I might be murdering the maths - but I think this increases to 45%~ if you burn another CP to reroll one failure (obviously the Shadowsword player could burn a CP to get more shots/hits.)

In a pure knight build you are going to run out of CPs fast doing all this - but I don't think this scenario is unreasonable in an Imperial soup list where CPs are plentiful, recharging and you are going to defend that castellan/valiant.