So this came up in my ongoing fanfic and it is one of those thing that's bugged me for a long time, why are marines riding around in Rhinos?

They're less well armored and armed than Chimeras, only carry 10 men, and generally don't seem worth hauling halfway around the galaxy to serve as a stable for the Emperor's elite. Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?

The real reason of course is they were the first plastic vehicle kit and have remained more or less the same over 30 years even while GW has rolled out bigger better kits. But that's not a good in universe explanation.

I've always been a fan of Marvel Comic's No Prize, a prize fans could win, not for pointing out errors but for coming up with a clever handwave to show there never was an error at all.

So...

Space Bradleys - Rhinos are light and poorly armored because they need to be transported by Thunderhawks (which function as Space C-130s+Space B-52s). The lack of firepower is easily explained by the fact the the ten marine on board are the firepower,the Rhino is just a taxi to get them there. Similarly the variants like the Predator, Vindicator etc are still light enough for air dropping while the Leman Russ etc are not.


(Props to Ironhands.com for the image and the scratch build)

Essential - The humble Rhino may play essential roles that its game stats do not reflect. For example Marines are logistically demanding. Sure you can drop a Marine naked on a planet and he'd be able to survive and fight using whatever local resources are available. But if want them at peak effectiveness in full armor you need to feed them their drugs, battlefield data, power, parts and everything else. I imagine Marines riding in a Rhino standing silently at attention, cables and tethers plugged into their armor feeding them everything from orbital images to drugs and medication, playing sacred hymns in their ears, to running simulations of the coming battle. All the while servo skulls, mechanical arms and those small robed servants we see in art scurry around their feet tending the armor, checking ammo levels etc. It would be tight quarters but this is an APC not a luxury limo.





Replaceable - Canonically Rhinos are a simple design that can be made on almost any Imperial world. So Marines can acquire Rhinos locally to replace battlefield loses. This is of course the opposite of the 'Essential' point but they can both work, just imagine there's a continuum, from bare metal boxes hastily painted in Chapter colors, to revered relic rhinos that can serve as a Marine's home from home. Game-wise it would make no difference just fluff and modeling.

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.



Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.

Tradition - Similarly Marine doctrines were laid down at the end of the Heresy a different time. Fliers and heavier armor may have been in critically short supply, and once the Rhino (and variants) were codified it was hard to change things.

So that's my little list, personally the Bradley theory is my favorite. The need to airlift tanks is why the US has an aluminum APC and it would make sense for the Imperium.

You want an honest answer.
Abundance, Maintenance and Reliability

nearly all imperial armies technically use the Rhino.
Even the Arbites use it.
The Chimera is more difficult to maintain, therefore a bigger manpowerpool of engineers is required, contrary to the Rhino which is portrayed as extremely forgiving.
There is one thing that space marine chapters lack, and that is manpower, well specialist manpower, since Techmarines are relatively rare.
Also often times a Chapter has no homeworld and relies on it's barges for transportation, therefore equipment that is easy to fix and "good enough" takes precedence.

Reliability and adaptability is the mainstay of the rhino, it does exactly what it’s meant to do and that is deliver troops to where they are needed, the main firepower of marines is in there infantry (tabletop doesn’t show this well).

Also when you consider the original chassis was designed as a standard template to be adapted to anything from a farm vehicle to a tank, it’s pretty impressive.

the Rhino and Chimera aren't really things that can be compared, the Rhino is an APC, the Chimeria is an IFV, differant tools for differant jobs. The rhino is a cheap reliable platform to haul troops into the field with min imal cost and fuss, the Chimeria meanwhile is intended as a mobile fireplatform. the Chimeria is better compared to the Razorback.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?

Two reasons:

1) Airborne is great, until your enemy puts up a modern integrated air defense network and SAM batteries shoot down all of your aircraft before they get anywhere near their targets. Space marines don't have the sheer numbers of the IG/Navy and can't fight a war of attrition to get a strike through, even a single pod being shot down would be a huge blow to a chapter. The Rhino allows a marine force to land over the horizon and move in on the ground, maintaining relevance even when the target has AA defenses.

2) Airborne forces struggle with endurance in combat. Pods are a one-shot weapon, and transport aircraft can't stay with a squad for long before they run out of fuel. A Rhino can provide mobility out of combat and haul around extra ammunition, repair kits, etc, to keep a squad fighting for a much longer time.

This focus on out-of-combat roles is why the Rhino is so basic. It doesn't need guns or heavy armor or anything like that, adding them would just reduce its ability to perform its main tasks. See the Razorback as an example, it carries a support weapon for the squad but it's still poorly armored compared to a real tank and sacrifices considerable transport capacity to do it. This makes it a compromise design that is not effective at either role (and only good on the tabletop because GW screwed up the point costs).

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away. Fluff-wise it has paper armor like other aircraft, and its weapons probably suffer from limited ammunition supply like real-world gunships. Out of universe the answer is that GW never should have made these models in the first place, and it's best to consider them non-canon.

And of course the flyers have the problems mentioned above. A Storm Raven sounds great until you realize it has no ability to hide while it's flying high above the ground and a flight of Barracudas is inbound on an intercept course. At best your "tank" had to run away and leave the infantry without support, and the most likely outcome is that the Storm Raven is shot down and a whole squad of marines (plus a priceless relic of the chapter if it's carrying a dreadnought) is now dead.

Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.

This is probably part of it too. Rhinos aren't bad at their job, so it's not like they're being crippled with a trash unit, but they don't get to have units that are better at different roles. Space marines have to have transport vehicles, but they don't have to have tanks that can go up against a LRBT squadron and expect to win. The Rhino fills the required transport role without creating the danger of a space marine chapter winning a tank battle without support from IG allies.

Also something to consider is that rhino's aren't marines primary ways of getting around. Thunderhawks and drop pods are. And in HH period stormbirds(which were favoured over cruder thunderhawks)

The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.

Well it certainly would need a drop in the price department to around 40 ish? Also what about the diverse variants, for Guard i would love one with bs 4+ and a Heavy stubber instead of a stormbolter

 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.

Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.

Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.

If it's Marines driving then why can't the driver get out? Surely another 700lb dude in power armor would be more useful than a guy running the tape deck while he waits for his buddies to come back.

Someone needs to operate the one or 2 storm bolters on the roof

If it's Marines driving then why can't the driver get out? Surely another 700lb dude in power armor would be more useful than a guy running the tape deck while he waits for his buddies to come back.

It has to be not just a marine but a regular infantry member of a tactical squad who happens to also drive a rhino on the occasions they use armored vehicles instead of aircraft. It’s because all they are used for is marine delivery systems.

You answered your own question. It would be pointless to have an armored company of marines in tanks or a navy inflatables in strike cruisers. They might be a little bit better trained and a bit higher tech than the guard armored companies and navy squadrons, but not the same way a marine is better than a guardsman or storm trooper. So for marines, a ship or tank is just an infantry tool the same way a hand held lascannon is, or a drop pod. You could have a tactical squad in some kind of predicament, pinned down and trying to rush some well defended position, and Lars with the lascannon just can’t get it done. Well, Jim from tactical squad 4 happens to have a lascannon that can shoot while moving 55km/h and makes him immune to shoota fire. It has to be infantry all the time, to the extent that the armor and space ships are integrated right into the infantry squads. It’s not enough to be a specialist in supporting marines, the crew have to be specialist knowing marines, and as infantry marines they have special equipment. Some have meltabombs, some have an suspected, some have a battery of planetary bombardment cannons.

What’s more yes the 700 lb guy inside probably does get out and fight a fair amount, because it’s not like they’re in a tank company where if something goes wrong there are a wall of 20 other tanks around to keep up the cavalry charge and sweep past, or a stable of support vehicles and personnel to come save the crew and recover the tank. It’s literally a few inches of duralloy between the crew and the battle with no rear area depot to retire to.

They are canonically marines operating the vehicles, members of tactical squads according to 2e codex: ultramarines and all the subsequent sources that support same are kind of window dressing. The rules for Space Marine the original 6mm titanicus game also gave them nine normal squads, one command squad, and ten rhinos, just the same amount as the missing ten tactical marines.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.

Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.

There are some restrictions, mostly on spaceships and heavier equipment. During the GC SM had all ship types, now they are no longer supposed to have ships specialized in void combat, with BFG having a few SM frigate entries were it is noted that the Imperial Navy complains that the design is infringing on their role. Of course we have the special 'cool' exceptions like the Space Wolves who can somehow operate an entire GC level battlefleet crewed by a chapter only slightly larger than the rule with low pop feral world serfs.

Also SM fleets may be strong, but pound for pound Imperial Navy ships are much stronger as they were designed with void combat in mind. Although because its a game, this isn't always shown very well.

the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

They have around 40 cruiser level ships and up iirc. That is on the level of the Primarch led expeditionary fleets in the HH series. That's what I meant by GC level. Its at least 3-4 times the size of a regular Chapter's fleet, approaching smaller Legion level.

Yeah besides it being stupid because if every ship has at least 1 Marine on board it means with frigates included like 1/5th of the Chapter is likely always stuck on crew duty. But just the fact that an almost Deathworld like Fenris can sustain such amounts of crews and serfs is just silly. The Ultramarines would indeed be more believable as they have a significant base to draw from.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

They have around 40 cruiser level ships and up iirc. That is on the level of the Primarch led expeditionary fleets in the HH series. That's what I meant by GC level. Its at least 3-4 times the size of a regular Chapter's fleet, approaching smaller Legion level.

Yeah besides it being stupid because if every ship has at least 1 Marine on board it means with frigates included like 1/5th of the Chapter is likely always stuck on crew duty. But just the fact that an almost Deathworld like Fenris can sustain such amounts of crews and serfs is just silly. The Ultramarines would indeed be more believable as they have a significant base to draw from.

on the other hand, the fleet listings for other chapters seemed under strength in some ways, I know that they listed thunderhawk gunship numbers that just seemed too low.

I notice the 8th edition codices seem to not give fleet numbers, proably a smart move.

Yes, numbers was never really the strong suit of GW. But the standard fleet size seems to be 1-3 battle barges and a strike cruiser for each company. In plenty Black Library books the existence of SM frigates seems all but forgotten.

Always thought the Rhino was ok, heavier frontal armour than a Chimera, weaker flank armour - its not meant to fight and survive up close, it offers protection on the way in with the frontal armour - marines get out, rhino backs off to lurk nearby.

On the chapter numbers.. I always took it as 1,000 battle brothers, there are likely three times that in addition in the chapter in non-direct combat roles, they have the augmentation and basic training to be able to handle garrison duties, lead the various auxiliary forces, vehicle crews, maintenance crews, pilots etc

The simplest reason for the ubiquity of the Rhino would be supply chain.

The Rhino chassis is also used for Razorbacks, Predators and other vehicles in use by Space Marines. The fact they have a chassis that can be used for transport, support and weapons platforms sets it apart from other vehicles. You need less machinery to maintain it, you need less specialized knowledge about different chassis to operate it.

There's an economy to operating any military enterprise and Space Marine chapters are no different. Sure, they could invest in larger vehicles with better weapons, but they are monks. They aren't always going to make decisions based on efficiency, there are some decisions that will come down to faith. They have a book that says use a Rhino, so they are going to use a Rhino.

Let's call this the dumb marine theory of chapter logistics. If every chapter in the Imperium uses the same vehicles, the cost to maintain all of those vehicles in aggregate goes down. This means the Fringe Marines chapter gets the same toys as the Ultramarines even though they fight on backwards planet on the extreme fringes of the Universe.

The fact that vehicle is sub-optimal is besides the point. The Imperium is a bureaucracy and certain considerations must be made for the bureaucracy to survive. If you've ever read Catch-22, remember Minderbinder and his chocolate covered cotton balls?

That's what the Rhino is in 40k. A chocolate cover cotton ball everyone loves because they are told to love it.

I think the shape of the Rhino is what makes it useful. Narrow enough to go most places (unlike a Land Raider), small enough to fit inside landing craft and use cover to best advantage on the way to the target. Aircraft make dodgy transports if the enemy has enough Anti-Air or Air-to-Air defenses.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So this came up in my ongoing fanfic and it is one of those thing that's bugged me for a long time, why are marines riding around in Rhinos?

They're less well armored and armed than Chimeras, only carry 10 men, and generally don't seem worth hauling halfway around the galaxy to serve as a stable for the Emperor's elite. Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?

The real reason of course is they were the first plastic vehicle kit and have remained more or less the same over 30 years even while GW has rolled out bigger better kits. But that's not a good in universe explanation.

I've always been a fan of Marvel Comic's No Prize, a prize fans could win, not for pointing out errors but for coming up with a clever handwave to show there never was an error at all.

So...

Space Bradleys - Rhinos are light and poorly armored because they need to be transported by Thunderhawks (which function as Space C-130s+Space B-52s). The lack of firepower is easily explained by the fact the the ten marine on board are the firepower,the Rhino is just a taxi to get them there. Similarly the variants like the Predator, Vindicator etc are still light enough for air dropping while the Leman Russ etc are not.


(Props to Ironhands.com for the image and the scratch build)

Essential - The humble Rhino may play essential roles that its game stats do not reflect. For example Marines are logistically demanding. Sure you can drop a Marine naked on a planet and he'd be able to survive and fight using whatever local resources are available. But if want them at peak effectiveness in full armor you need to feed them their drugs, battlefield data, power, parts and everything else. I imagine Marines riding in a Rhino standing silently at attention, cables and tethers plugged into their armor feeding them everything from orbital images to drugs and medication, playing sacred hymns in their ears, to running simulations of the coming battle. All the while servo skulls, mechanical arms and those small robed servants we see in art scurry around their feet tending the armor, checking ammo levels etc. It would be tight quarters but this is an APC not a luxury limo.





Replaceable - Canonically Rhinos are a simple design that can be made on almost any Imperial world. So Marines can acquire Rhinos locally to replace battlefield loses. This is of course the opposite of the 'Essential' point but they can both work, just imagine there's a continuum, from bare metal boxes hastily painted in Chapter colors, to revered relic rhinos that can serve as a Marine's home from home. Game-wise it would make no difference just fluff and modeling.

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.



Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.

Tradition - Similarly Marine doctrines were laid down at the end of the Heresy a different time. Fliers and heavier armor may have been in critically short supply, and once the Rhino (and variants) were codified it was hard to change things.

So that's my little list, personally the Bradley theory is my favorite. The need to airlift tanks is why the US has an aluminum APC and it would make sense for the Imperium.

You can't send drop pods into a siege war, unless the defences are close to being broken and you want marines in the fortress. They will fight on many parts of a world, are they to drop pod, go back up to be drop podded again on another battle on the world... they can all go into thunderhawks, there aren't enough. Marines are already armoured like tanks, they don't need as much protection as guardsmen, but chimeras are only tougher in the game, rhinos are made out of ceremite. They are an STC construct and therefore extremely reliable and can be adapted into many other types of tanks. They are also easier to make and more can be made than land raiders. Nor does every tactical situation warrant extreme armoured protection. Not all transports are transporting models in the heat of battle either, many are used to drive between already conquered battle fields, many are probably also used for scouting, or for dropping marines off for surveillance of battle fields or fortified positions etc. like special forces do, you aren't going to risk a valuable land raider getting destroyed on a scouting mission. A land speeder has bad armour, does that make that bad...

Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.

Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.

Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.

much of that SM astuff they don't use is new. the rhino dates back to the great crusade. "it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us" don't assume a chapter that isn't codex compliant isn't equally dogmatic in it's own way. there's also logistics to take in mind. sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.

Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.

much of that SM astuff they don't use is new. the rhino dates back to the great crusade. "it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us" don't assume a chapter that isn't codex compliant isn't equally dogmatic in it's own way. there's also logistics to take in mind. sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders.

And much of it is not new, so that point is irrelevant. ""it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us"" that is just your opinion. Space Wolves don't use many things that 30k wolves did and of which they still have access to. Yes they are dogmatic in their own way but you were saying they take rhinos because of the codex astarted, their dogmatism in other ways is irrelevant to taking rhinos. "sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders." this just proves my point. You are saying the only reason they take them is dogmatism, but you just repeated my original point which you contradicted in your reply to me.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum.

Machines are often quite a bit sacred to the Marines, though not always just because of the machine but also because of who used it to do what where. They pray to their guns and armors so they'll not fail in battle. Ancient armors and weapons are refurbished and used again, gifted to marines that earn the right to use this or that hero's gauntlets, breast plate or chain sword. Good marines risk their lives to recover a wrecked Rhino because it's theirs and has been for ten thousand years, transporting countless squads into glorious battle.

The design itself might not be "sacred" to them but they will react like violent religious fanatics if you scratch the Rhino that carried Captain Facesmasher's Command Squad into the legendary battle where he died!

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum.

Machines are often quite a bit sacred to the Marines, though not always just because of the machine but also because of who used it to do what where. They pray to their guns and armors so they'll not fail in battle. Ancient armors and weapons are refurbished and used again, gifted to marines that earn the right to use this or that hero's gauntlets, breast plate or chain sword. Good marines risk their lives to recover a wrecked Rhino because it's theirs and has been for ten thousand years, transporting countless squads into glorious battle.

The design itself might not be "sacred" to them but they will react like violent religious fanatics if you scratch the Rhino that carried Captain Facesmasher's Command Squad into the legendary battle where he died!

Yeah personal machines they do, not machines as a whole. Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Mobility (that means speed but also terrain-crossing-ability) is important factor of SM warfare. Strike fast and hard. Without fast ground vehicle they have a very limited operating range once they where deployed from orbit.

Relying on air support is dangerous and a nightmare logistically (fuel efficiency is poor, also weather conditions can force a stop to it, you just cant land everywhere). Thunderhawks dont go to places underground, or in the streets of some city or factory complex.
Rhino provides mobility right there and then, without waiting 20min for a lift. And also provides carrying capacity for weapons and ammo and whatever else they need.
How do you fight a numerical superior enemy? By lots of ammunition for starters. Where does this ammo come from? Well, it needs to be transported to the ground and from there to where it's actually needed at the time. The only other solution is that marines have to be employed as super-human mules for rear echelon duties... not very efficient use of manpower i say.

The only thing that needs serious handwaving (or is outright impossible) is how 10 marines actually can fit inside a Rhino and yet regular people also beeing able to use it. I tried fitting marine 3D models into 3D Rhinos scaled to FW size dimensions... 6 in the cargo compartment is already a tight fit (they have to hunch down). To fit 10 marines into the design we got, it has to be quite a bit larger than what FW gives us. That means for humans trying to use it, it would be like a 8-10 yo child trying to drive a normal car. And conversely-maybe 16-20 normal humans would fit inside because of how spacious marines are with their armor and backpack. Still trying to find a good solution for scale there. I'm considering settling on the explanation that there must be 2 versions: 1 Rhino for astartes, 1 Rhino for regular humans. Just like Dark Heresy came up with the Bolter existing in different types - "human bolter" and "astartes bolter".

This differentiation between astartes and human Rhino also makes it more paletable that some Rhinos in SM hands have survived 10.000 years of constant use without getting blown up at some point. They are just better armored than your average human rhino or chimera and therefore survive enemy fire better.

From realistic standpoint - Rhino is much much more mobile over a Chimera in rough terrain because the suspension has more travel. In a Chimera as passenger/ crew you would be shaken like crazy and the drive train would capitulate eventually from driving too fast in rought terrain because of poor suspension design. And the crew would be exausted from beeing jerked and bumped around all the time (possibly even with back injuries after short time).

The actual reason why Rhino looks bad - because it performs a lot of roles that don't have rules on tabletop. It has a lot of stuff going for it in fluff, and is in fact better in that respect than most modern vehicles.

Out of universe, the reason why it's garbage is simple - M113, its real life equivalent, is colossal PoS on wheels so terrible anything based on it sucks, no matter how much lipstick you'll put on it

BrianDavion wrote:
the Rhino and Chimera aren't really things that can be compared, the Rhino is an APC, the Chimeria is an IFV, differant tools for differant jobs. The rhino is a cheap reliable platform to haul troops into the field with min imal cost and fuss, the Chimeria meanwhile is intended as a mobile fireplatform. the Chimeria is better compared to the Razorback.

Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 (and better than Rhino because BTRs were far superior vehicles to anything USA produced at the time, making its fictional equivalent better design too). It can transport a full squad, for one. IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

 Peregrine wrote:
This is probably part of it too. Rhinos aren't bad at their job, so it's not like they're being crippled with a trash unit, but they don't get to have units that are better at different roles. Space marines have to have transport vehicles, but they don't have to have tanks that can go up against a LRBT squadron and expect to win. The Rhino fills the required transport role without creating the danger of a space marine chapter winning a tank battle without support from IG allies.

Heh. Maybe that was fluff once, but have you read Angels of Death? Specifically, the page describing how a SM company took on thousands of IG vehicles and won?

I always thought a Chimera was a BMP (all it needs is a hunter-killer missile over the gun), which is a IFV.

Since the Chimera was introduced after the heresy, maybe the effort to modify it for SM use and the logistical cost of another hull type made it more logical to keep the Rhino. As the Rhino shares the same hull as most of the SM support vehicles.

Irbis wrote:Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 [...] IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

The definition of a IFV does not include that it has to have half a squad. That's only in your head, i guess, because the Bradley can only manage to fit half a squad...
APC - armored (against small arms fire at least) and usually has self defense weaponry against light threats, task is to transport infantry and supplies.
IFV - armored and weaponry for a wider threat range. BMP and BRDM are IFV. Task is to transport infantry and stay with them in the fire fight for support. Chimera is exactly that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle
Also, why can only autocannon provide fire support? That's silly. Even a vehicle mounted Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer (with the ammunition for long salvos) is a considerable force multiplier to a bunch of men carrying flashlights and the odd special or heavy weapon, that has very limited ammo because its carried on foot.

Tygre wrote:
I always thought a Chimera was a BMP (all it needs is a hunter-killer missile over the gun), which is a IFV.

Word

Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

Where do you got the figure of 8" penetration of Heavy bolters from?
I dont disagree about "not small arms" but i disagree about "19mm autocannon". If Bolters would be like autocannons, there would be no need for autocannons. Bolters are famously short barreled and in no way hypersonic, their limited range compared to autocannons is a good indication of that.
Bolters are more like a cross between automatic grenade launcher and Heavy machine gun in terms of use, and cross between projectile weapon and rocket propelled grenade in terms of technology. Higher velocity and lower arcing than grenade launcher, but lower payload than that - so they require hitting the target directly for their damage, instead of relying on fragmentation like grenadelaunchers do.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

 Irbis wrote:
Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 (and better than Rhino because BTRs were far superior vehicles to anything USA produced at the time, making its fictional equivalent better design too). It can transport a full squad, for one. IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

So the Razorback is an IFV with twin heavy bolters, while the Chimera and its twin heavy bolters (or HB + AC, HB + multilaser, etc) and 6x lasguns is only an APC because it doesn't have enough firepower. Makes complete sense.

Heh. Maybe that was fluff once, but have you read Angels of Death? Specifically, the page describing how a SM company took on thousands of IG vehicles and won?

I think it's pretty clear that idiocy of that magnitude is not canon.

 Keep wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

Where do you got the figure of 8" penetration of Heavy bolters from?
I dont disagree about "not small arms" but i disagree about "19mm autocannon". If Bolters would be like autocannons, there would be no need for autocannons. Bolters are famously short barreled and in no way hypersonic, their limited range compared to autocannons is a good indication of that.
Bolters are more like a cross between automatic grenade launcher and Heavy machine gun in terms of use, and cross between projectile weapon and rocket propelled grenade in terms of technology. Higher velocity and lower arcing than grenade launcher, but lower payload than that - so they require hitting the target directly for their damage, instead of relying on fragmentation like grenadelaunchers do.

Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

Also while we don't know how durable plasteel is, we at least know that it's tensile strength is ~260 times superior to normal conventional steel. Wraithbone is put at being 1,000 times stronger than steel, and 8mm of Wraithbone is equivalent level of protection to 30mm of Plasteel. That gives us the result of of Plasteel being over 200x+ "stronger" than your normal RL steel. Which makes sense that it has some crazy performance levels seeing as Plasteel armored tanks can survive getting hit with multi-meltas.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Just to point out that in IRL definitions a gun has to be 20mm or bigger to be called a cannon.

So bolters might not be, but heavy bolters would be.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Are you seriously trying to imply only the new 40k fluff is over the top and unrealistic? might wanna take off the rose coloured glasses man

Hrm.

I remember the day when inconsistencies in the fluff were regarded as ironic, in-universe propaganda and 40k players knew better than to "trust the author" or "expect common sense" with regard to how things actually worked in the game.

It makes complete sense that bolters would be described as the most powerful weapons in the universe, considering the reverence with which the IG treats their lasguns.

What Peregrine calls idiocy is what many used to call the reason to play 40k. It's not like the models on the table have ever lived up to the canon established in the fluff.

Ignoring the ballistics and penetration argument (which will never be solved), the Rhino makes sense to me. A quasi-modular, simple, robust, and reliable(?) transport vehicle. If you're simply moving Marines around you won't be wasting a Thunderhawk or a Land Raider, or anything fast and crazy and super-fighty. You just need a tin box to stop the occasional bullets...and you need to shuttle infantry long distances.

If we're to believe the Horus Heresy books it's entirely possible for Space Marines to be on a planet for months at a time, so you're not going to burn precious fuel in a Thunderhawk to move a couple squads 20-200 kilometers away. Also a Rhino could be used in the field to carry additional supplies, extra ammunition, probably has a stronger communications system than the suits, etc.

A lot of your assumptions are correct (See Imperial Armour II0. As a box to sit in and be driven about a battlefield, and gun platform, a chimera is superior.

As a combat vehicle, the rhino is superior because of a lot of things not featured in a relatively simplified 6-turn tabletop wargame.

Chimera has a thicker glacis plate on the front but the side armor of a Rhino is better, it has better smart comms, gear for recharging powered plate, more on board weapon and ammo space, a much better ability to cope with hostile environments (not as in 'a river' but as in 'a planet with an acid atmosphere'...)

Basically, it's a better mobile base of operations for 10 marines, who are the primary fighting power.

It's also easy to build and maintain, despite being 'astartes tech level', which is why chapters can easily build and maintain them themselves, even newly established chapters, those short of resources and chapters not on good terms with mars.

Essentially akin to why the lasgun is so awesome. Try using one in the 40k RPGs or necromunda, where the 60 round magazine/reliable rule/2+ ammo role applies, and you understand why an army which needs simple logistics and weight of numbers has basically worshipped the 'flashlight' for ten millenia....


Rhino crew aren't part of the squad - in the original fluff (Codex: Ultramarines!) crewing battle company rhinos is one of the jobs the reserve companies do. Remember that the actual 'deployed' force of a chapter is those 4 battle companys, with the odd bolt-on bit of armory tanks, reserve, scout or veteran squads.

Hence most company-scale expeditons can manage a battle barge, because there's rarely more than 2-3 at once.


The astartes fleet is powerful, but it is supposed to be limited in tactical design (hence, as noted, the Nova-class frigate causes much ruction with the navy as it in no way fits the 'planetary assault' role of the astartes), but there are exceptions.

The nova-class is one, whilst the ultramarines seditio opprimere (a battle barge) is essentially a naval capitalship (re)built by whoever came up with the terminus ultra land raider (we'll replace those wepons with lances, and those, and those...)

The wolves do have an oversize fleet. but they have an oversize chapter, too. They're not an old-style legion, but fenris is home to something equivalent to up to half a dozen 'proper' chapters (great companies are distinctly bigger than normal companies and there are twelve of them, not ten) so a fleet ~ 3 times a codex chapters is hardly out of place.

locarno24 wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are correct (See Imperial Armour II0. As a box to sit in and be driven about a battlefield, and gun platform, a chimera is superior.

As a combat vehicle, the rhino is superior because of a lot of things not featured in a relatively simplified 6-turn tabletop wargame.

Chimera has a thicker glacis plate on the front but the side armor of a Rhino is better, it has better smart comms, gear for recharging powered plate, more on board weapon and ammo space, a much better ability to cope with hostile environments (not as in 'a river' but as in 'a planet with an acid atmosphere'...)

Basically, it's a better mobile base of operations for 10 marines, who are the primary fighting power.

It's also easy to build and maintain, despite being 'astartes tech level', which is why chapters can easily build and maintain them themselves, even newly established chapters, those short of resources and chapters not on good terms with mars.

Essentially akin to why the lasgun is so awesome. Try using one in the 40k RPGs or necromunda, where the 60 round magazine/reliable rule/2+ ammo role applies, and you understand why an army which needs simple logistics and weight of numbers has basically worshipped the 'flashlight' for ten millenia....


Rhino crew aren't part of the squad - in the original fluff (Codex: Ultramarines!) crewing battle company rhinos is one of the jobs the reserve companies do. Remember that the actual 'deployed' force of a chapter is those 4 battle companys, with the odd bolt-on bit of armory tanks, reserve, scout or veteran squads.

Hence most company-scale expeditons can manage a battle barge, because there's rarely more than 2-3 at once.


The astartes fleet is powerful, but it is supposed to be limited in tactical design (hence, as noted, the Nova-class frigate causes much ruction with the navy as it in no way fits the 'planetary assault' role of the astartes), but there are exceptions.

The nova-class is one, whilst the ultramarines seditio opprimere (a battle barge) is essentially a naval capitalship (re)built by whoever came up with the terminus ultra land raider (we'll replace those wepons with lances, and those, and those...)

The wolves do have an oversize fleet. but they have an oversize chapter, too. They're not an old-style legion, but fenris is home to something equivalent to up to half a dozen 'proper' chapters (great companies are distinctly bigger than normal companies and there are twelve of them, not ten) so a fleet ~ 3 times a codex chapters is hardly out of place.

the Space Wolves aren;t that big. we have some hard numbers on the space wolves now, We have the number of members of both the second largest, the blackmanes, and the largest the champions of fenris.
We can thus estimate a Maximum size of the space wolves. Using the numbers for the champions of Fenris which lists a streangth of 214 Space Wolves (I am generously counting a dreadnought as a space wolf here) we can estimate a estimated max size of 2544 Marines for the space wolves. it's big sure but a far cry from "a half dozen proper chapters"

Codex ultramarines is not original fluff. It’s second edition fluff. And first edition changes massively as it went along. In the first marine army lists you had to buy tech marines to crew vehicles.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Bolter speed is mentioned in several newer 40k books, while the exact bolt speed of the 2.5 kilometer shot comes from Siege of Castellax where an Iron Warrior pops a rebel who lept off the back of a truck while they were falling from 2.5 kilometers out. Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article.

Also another thing to bring up is stealth. It comes up occaisionally, but some authors have run with the idea that as Ceramite is extremely good at absorbing energy - it logically also would dampen the thermal signature of the target. Thus the Rhino, being covered in Ceramite, would prove trickier to lock onto with guided missiles and require a direct "dumbfired" shot to hit it.

Thanks. I wouldn’t put too much weight into any of those figures myself then, things have a way of getting exaggerated in those novels and also stuff changes from edition to edition, not to mention the variables of atmospheres and gravity and construction. Real world science doesn’t matter much in 40k.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

I've never heard of that, you'd be able to at least say what book it was from, so I don't think that is cannon.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Marines pray but the majority of Astartes do not believe that the Emperor is actually a god, they do it for tradition and to focus themselves etc. It hasn't changed in 10,000 years because its an STC construct, made in the golden age of technology, the mechanicus cannot make it better, their technology is primitive in comparison.

I figure it’s because the Astartes are supposed to be the Imperium’s special forces; in and out to cripple a specific strategic target in a lightning attack. AFAIK real world special forces rarely use heavy armour vehicles, too slow and cumbersome. They’re running round in light helicopters and up-armoured 4x4s.

It may not be represented in the tabletop rules, but the Rhino may be much faster and longer ranged than the Chimera. In fact it’s very likely, given all the extra armour and weapons the Chimera carries.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

I've never heard of that, you'd be able to at least say what book it was from, so I don't think that is cannon.

To be fair to Spetuhlu, I too remember reading about Rhino recovery along that stretch. It might have been the 5th edition SM codex but I'm not sure.

Chapters do treat their vehicles with a certain reverence. The Salamanders accoring to an old WD article had an 8000 year old Rhino that had its own exclusive techmarine and could only be driven by the most experienced crews.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Marines pray but the majority of Astartes do not believe that the Emperor is actually a god, they do it for tradition and to focus themselves etc. It hasn't changed in 10,000 years because its an STC construct, made in the golden age of technology, the mechanicus cannot make it better, their technology is primitive in comparison.

Improvement is banned. To say you can make an STC better is tech heresey.

If marines pray but don’t believe the emperor is god and things aren’t holy, who are they praying too. I remember a WD article laying out a marines day and it was very like a monks. Prayers every 5 mins. Not all treat the emperor as god and things as holy but many do. U Seem to think all marines are the same.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Except bolter rounds are 2 stage, they don't exit the barrel at hypersonic speeds. Launched by a small propellant, they are self contained rockets that then accelerate to that after leaving the barrel, hence the low recoil, but high velocity. Kind of like a much more advanced Gyrojet weapon, but with an explosive warhead. Which would theoretically make them less effective at point blank range that at longer ranges - though that'd be hard to represent in game.

Exactly. You don't really need additional firepower when your entire 10 man is carrying rapid fire RPG's.

It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

It makes sense for an IG special weapons team of vetrens. Where almost every guy has a special weapon and the 2 or 3 guys that don't man the guns on the chimera.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Exactly. You don't really need additional firepower when your entire 10 man is carrying rapid fire RPG's.

It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

It makes sense for an IG special weapons team of vetrens. Where almost every guy has a special weapon and the 2 or 3 guys that don't man the guns on the chimera.

You always need additional firepower!
First rule of dakka. - There is never enough dakka!

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

Because it's the ops base for the ten guys that carry the firepower? A marine's power armor can keep him alive in most environments, sure, what with all the systems keeping bad stuff out, little med-unit giving him drugs, the armor itself stopping attacks. But if hurt bad enough the squad still needs a workplace where they can take his suit off and give him some stitches. They also need some place to store ammo and supply reserves - ammo is always spent and while the PA recycling systems can keep them alive for a long time fresh stuff is probably always the better option. Marines CAN work behind enemy lines without support for a long time but they're going to be a whole lot more effective if they have support. The squad Rhino is that support.

And even on the table it is useful - someone has to shoot it to get the guys to disembark where they can be shot. Oh, and it moves faster than a marine on foot so more background stuff.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.

The Imperial Army was a big time user of the Rhino and Predator. The ridiculous fluff answer is that the Mechanicus had a hard time building them by the 41st Millennium, so they are super duper special and entrusted to only the most trusted of Imperial Adepta (Astartes, Sororitas, Arbites, Inquisition, rich Rogue Traders). The better answer is that with Rawbutt's reforms, and restructuring of the Imperial Army's ground forces, an IFV like the Chimera (which replaced the unloved Testudo IFV) made more sense rather than a simple battle taxi (APC). The real world answer is that GW wanted to sell more models, and segregated the Marines and Guard in terms of vehicles (with the exception of the Space Wolves limited use of the Leman Russ Exterminator) to do that very thing.


The canon fluff regarding the status of the Rhino makes no damned sense. The Rhino was originally a comparitively simple security and exploration vehicle for hard scrabble colony worlds. Supposedly, any planet with half-way decent industry and access to the STC blueprints could build them. The Chimera is a more expensive and complex vehicle in comparison, in addition to being more capable in combat. The only real advantages of a Rhino over a Chimera are fairly minor and situational. It's use of an adaptive thermic combustion reactor (allowing it to operate in a vaccuum and other extreme environments if necessarily), slightly better speed/mobility, better materials in it's construction on average (but it can still be built out of most metals, like the Leman Russ), and it's superior redunancies in case of damage. It's also a simple vehicle to maintain (so easy, a Guardsman could do it!) That's pretty much it.

The truth is that certain Guard regiments and PDFs should have access to the Rhino. PDFs becuase it's cheap and simple to upkeep. And certain Guard units that could benefit from the Rhino's advantages (regiments that operate as highly mobile forces or extreme environments). So, I agree that it would be nice to see it as a choice in a future Guard book. But don't count on it. GW/FW doesn't see fit to add more stuff to the Guard's TO&E. Especially stuff that even bog standard, third line militia was entrusted with during the Great Crusade, and in a supposedly new age of military reforms with the return of Gorillaman. They've doubled down on the "ALL SPHESS MUHREENZ, ALL T.EH TYME".

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.

The Imperial Army was a big time user of the Rhino and Predator. The ridiculous fluff answer is that the Mechanicus had a hard time building them by the 41st Millennium, so they are super duper special and entrusted to only the most trusted of Imperial Adepta (Astartes, Sororitas, Arbites, Inquisition, rich Rogue Traders). The better answer is that with Rawbutt's reforms, and restructuring of the Imperial Army's ground forces, an IFV like the Chimera (which replaced the unloved Testudo IFV) made more sense rather than a simple battle taxi (APC). The real world answer is that GW wanted to sell more models, and segregated the Marines and Guard in terms of vehicles (with the exception of the Space Wolves limited use of the Leman Russ Exterminator) to do that very thing.


The canon fluff regarding the status of the Rhino makes no damned sense. The Rhino was originally a comparitively simple security and exploration vehicle for hard scrabble colony worlds. Supposedly, any planet with half-way decent industry and access to the STC blueprints could build them. The Chimera is a more expensive and complex vehicle in comparison, in addition to being more capable in combat. The only real advantages of a Rhino over a Chimera are fairly minor and situational. It's use of an adaptive thermic combustion reactor (allowing it to operate in a vaccuum and other extreme environments if necessarily), slightly better speed/mobility, better materials in it's construction on average (but it can still be built out of most metals, like the Leman Russ), and it's superior redunancies in case of damage. It's also a simple vehicle to maintain (so easy, a Guardsman could do it!) That's pretty much it.

The truth is that certain Guard regiments and PDFs should have access to the Rhino. PDFs becuase it's cheap and simple to upkeep. And certain Guard units that could benefit from the Rhino's advantages (regiments that operate as highly mobile forces or extreme environments). So, I agree that it would be nice to see it as a choice in a future Guard book. But don't count on it. GW/FW doesn't see fit to add more stuff to the Guard's TO&E. Especially stuff that even bog standard, third line militia was entrusted with during the Great Crusade, and in a supposedly new age of military reforms with the return of Gorillaman. They've doubled down on the "ALL SPHESS MUHREENZ, ALL T.EH TYME".

Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.

And the lore can be (and has been) changed when they need it to, to sell more models.

eg Space Marines are the ultimate warriors of the galaxy and the Emperor's personally created finest warriors..........oh no they aren't we've got the all new and improved Primaris Marines created by a mere Magos.....

 Kcalehc wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.

And the lore can be (and has been) changed when they need it to, to sell more models.

Yeah but they are always going to change the lore to sell more models.

Rhinos are easy to maintain and deploy, plus a number of other vehicles are based on the chassis making the vehicle fleet easier to maintain. I think the older stats for the Rhino (like Epic and 2nd Ed.) had the Rhino as faster than a Chimera too.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article

That bullet speed makes it on the level of modern railguns... if the Bolt projectiles would be that fast as claimed in that novel they could pluck any flier out of the air with ease. Why would SM need Anti-Air if that was the case? If Bolters can penetrate 8" plasteel, then they can punch through Leman Russ and Chimera from the front because they have < 200mm in the front (FW Tank Data sheets). And i have not seen mentions of novels where the author is powerfantasizing that much ... It simply doesn't add up - which is why i'm ignoring "facts" of some author who very likely has miniscule knowledge of weaponry and spends 0 efford into considering if that makes any sense in univers and simply tosses this stuff out there to make something appear more awesome.

Not to mention the bullet design known from bolt rounds would very unlikely be stable at all (short and stubby) at those speeds. If it would be as fast as claimed it would be also pretty pointless to use explosives, because a projectile penetrating with so much kinetic energy would already be like an explosive on its own...

 Keep wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article

That bullet speed makes it on the level of modern railguns... if the Bolt projectiles would be that fast as claimed in that novel they could pluck any flier out of the air with ease. Why would SM need Anti-Air if that was the case? If Bolters can penetrate 8" plasteel, then they can punch through Leman Russ and Chimera from the front because they have < 200mm in the front. And i have not seen mentions of novels where the author is powerfantasizing that much ... It simply doesn't add up - which is why i'm ignoring "facts" of some author who very likely has miniscule knowledge of weaponry and spends 0 efford into considering if that makes any sense in univers and simply tosses this stuff out there to make something appear more awesome.

Not to mention the bullet design known from bolt rounds would very unlikely be stable at all (short and stubby) at those speeds. If it would be as fast as claimed it would be also pretty pointless to use explosives, because a projectile penetrating with so much kinetic energy would already be like an explosive on its own...

Well duh? It's quite obvious that the "armor thickness" values in the Forge World books and prior magazines are complete bs considering they don't line up with literally any of the novels. Leman Russes don't just have 200mm of armor, or else they wouldn't be able to survive multi meltas pumping out literal gigajoules of energy or survive getting shot by battle cannons imparting hundreds of megajoules of energy with connecting shots sending Leman Russes scooting meters across the ground without scoring penetration. They're ludicrously durable and most importantly, like all Imperial vehicles, not standardized. There is no such thing as a default Leman Russ as each world that produces them makes them to their own parameters, as we know that Leman Russes can be made out of really nonsensical stuff. It's also part of the reason they the Leman Russ can be run by dumping just about anything into the fuel tank.

Likewise this goes for Rhinos too. There is no such thing as a standard Rhino. While ones made by the same Forge World might start out the same, after service (especially in a Chapter) they will be modified by Tech Priests, their psychic presence in the warp will change, and they might get rebuilt from being scrapped half a dozen times.

 Corennus wrote:
eg Space Marines are the ultimate warriors of the galaxy and the Emperor's personally created finest warriors..........oh no they aren't we've got the all new and improved Primaris Marines created by a mere Magos.....

we've known for some time the space marines AREN'T the best of what the emperor could do, given the existance of custodes and primarchs

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well duh? It's quite obvious that the "armor thickness" values in the Forge World books and prior magazines are complete bs [...]

You happily quoted inferno as source for wraithbone vs. plasteel. The Origin of 200mm for leman russ is just as old as the conversion rates you told us for wraithbone. Forgeworld just made differential values for turret hull and superstructure off of that.
Know what is also from Inferno?

Lascannon effective range 2km. Plasmacannon 1.5km ... Boltround - way above 2.5km apparently !?

 Wyzilla wrote:
[...]considering they don't line up with literally any of the novels. Leman Russes don't just have 200mm of armor, or else they wouldn't be able to survive multi meltas pumping out literal gigajoules of energy or survive getting shot by battle cannons imparting hundreds of megajoules of energy with connecting shots sending Leman Russes scooting meters across the ground without scoring penetration.

Has it crossed your mind that inconsistency may be because the novels that send leman russ "meters across the field" when receiving a battle canon round are just bs ? If the 62ton leman russ would do that, not only would the crew be dead from blunt trauma (its like a car crash to them... without airbags), but also would the leman russ shooting that round be send "scooting meters across the ground" when shooting it... Which means when it is facing it's turrets sideways it is actually rather likely to topple over, because the tracks provide considerable friction on a 62ton vehicle. And all that with just a 120mm projectile Tanks beeing shoved meters across the ground by weapon impact is some anime level supersaiyan nonsense.
Melters may jave a gabillion of jules of energy... but for it to vaporize a hole through 200mm "supersteel" with it's high heat conductivity, or worse, ceramic materials, can take megabajillion jules of energy. It takes insane amount of energy to vaporize something.

Now back to our "totally reasonable" Boltgun that can penetrate 200mm of plasteel:
Land raider armor is 3.75" thick (95mm) and this is equivalent to 12" (300mm) of plasteel (from index astartes or inferno if memory serves right). Makes a conversion rate of 3.14. This would make the Predator vulnerable to Bolter fire from the front as well, because it has between 65 and 55mm "SM armor" which is between 173 and 204mm plasteel according to that conversion.
Not only that... Bolters could then also shoot through Power Armour like butter (because SM armor certainly isn't better armored than a Predator from the front) - which makes me wonder why during the Heresy Power Armour still offered adequate protection against Boltrounds that where not specifically designed to krak power armor.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's also part of the reason they the Leman Russ can be run by dumping just about anything into the fuel tank.

The reason it can burn almost anything burnable in liquid form is that it's a multi-fuel engine, which exist since years IRL. It even says so on the inferno page... "multi-fuel engine". Fancy astartes have thermic reactors in their Rhons, which is just a fancy/dated name for combustion engine.

 Formosa wrote:
Reliability and adaptability is the mainstay of the rhino, it does exactly what it’s meant to do and that is deliver troops to where they are needed, the main firepower of marines is in there infantry (tabletop doesn’t show this well).

Also when you consider the original chassis was designed as a standard template to be adapted to anything from a farm vehicle to a tank, it’s pretty impressive.

Very much this. The rhino is a direct STC production - the blueprints for the tank came out of an STC machine. This differs from other imperial tech like chimeras, which are designed by the admech and composed of components from STC's and recovered knowledge. The blueprint was explicitly for SPACE! colonists to have something to support their SPACE! exploration and colony building. In space.

As a tracked exploration/defense/multi-role vehicle that can be adapted on the fly, it also would have supported space suits and been sealed, so as to traverse hostile alien environments. As such it will be compatible with powered armour - providing recahging, interface with cameras, gun turrets etc. Unlike a machine like the Chimera- which is designed by magi to perform the function of shuttling fleshy meatbags around, the rhino is OG tech from the dark ages.

Because it is 'understood' tech, in that the blueprints are there in full, and is STC, it can be constructed by people with average technical knowledge. This means that a chapter forge can churn them out without forgeworld assistance, aiding Space Marine autonomy. A battle-company can then produce most of the gear they need to support them on the ground- rhinos and variant tanks and all they need petition the mechanicus for are ships and delivery mechanisms like drop ships.

The stand rhino's front armour being lower than the chimera (based on armour values from 3rd-7th ed) shows a difference in intended use. Standard rhinos are armoured lightly on three facings, protecting against attacks to the front and side- implying their use is to push into the enemy lines where they will be surrounded. They are not designed nto withstand heavy fire- thats whats landraiders are for. Instead they are impervious to small arms fire up to bolter calibre, reflecting the role of the space marine squads within as infantry killers.

The Rhino variants that are designed to fight as the Chimera does- as part of a battle line, facing the enemy lines, are heavily armoured at the front. The predator tank is a good example of this, a fire support platform to support the Astartes. Still, the Predator retains the side armour, reflecting the fact that Marine tactics are more fluid and aggressive than the standoff tactics of the guard.

It's worth noting that the Adeptus Arbites use both rhino and chimera variants, (the repressor started out as an arbites vehicle, with a water cannon instead of a flamethrower) so scarcity seems unlikely. The factions that use rhinos instead of chimera have access to both but opt to use the rhino.

In the movie Pentagon Wars it gives a run-down on how requirement creep turned the Bradley into an IFV when it was originally just supposed to be a troop transport, and how every bell and whistle they tacked on turned it into a lesser and lesser effective troop transport. Maybe that's all there is to it? The chimera can get in close, fire, and protect guardsman actively, and it provides cover even after it gets wrecked. Power armored troops don't need that. They need their transport to drop them off, step back, and be in good enough condition to pick them up and run them to the next hot spot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

This is actually addressed in fluff the '1000 battle brothers' figure is strictly accounting for the ten squads of ten brothers in each of the ten companies. This notably includes the scouts, but does not include the chaplains, librarians, tech marines, captains and their retinues (lieutenants, ancients, dreadnoughts...)

Rhinos, razorbacks, landspeeders and bikes belong to their respective companies, but they're piloted by techmarines from the armoury, bigger badder vehicles like the vindicator or storm raven belong to the armoury and are dolled out as the mission requires it.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
It's worth noting that the Adeptus Arbites use both rhino and chimera variants, (the repressor started out as an arbites vehicle, with a water cannon instead of a flamethrower) so scarcity seems unlikely. The factions that use rhinos instead of chimera have access to both but opt to use the rhino.

In the movie Pentagon Wars it gives a run-down on how requirement creep turned the Bradley into an IFV when it was originally just supposed to be a troop transport, and how every bell and whistle they tacked on turned it into a lesser and lesser effective troop transport. Maybe that's all there is to it? The chimera can get in close, fire, and protect guardsman actively, and it provides cover even after it gets wrecked. Power armored troops don't need that. They need their transport to drop them off, step back, and be in good enough condition to pick them up and run them to the next hot spot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

This is actually addressed in fluff the '1000 battle brothers' figure is strictly accounting for the ten squads of ten brothers in each of the ten companies. This notably includes the scouts, but does not include the chaplains, librarians, tech marines, captains and their retinues (lieutenants, ancients, dreadnoughts...)

Rhinos, razorbacks, landspeeders and bikes belong to their respective companies, but they're piloted by techmarines from the armoury, bigger badder vehicles like the vindicator or storm raven belong to the armoury and are dolled out as the mission requires it.

actually the 6th or 7th edition marine codex said that the scout company isn't actually limited via the codex astartes eaither and some chapters have over sized 10th companies

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

This is my headcanon as well. I basically figure that all the severely injured marines can be stuck inside almost all of the vehicles on a permanent basis similar to Dreadnoughts. Get blown up and lose all four limbs but still alive, no problem! Depending on the situation the chapter can attempt to regrow them, throw on four cyberlimbs, stick you in a dreadnought, or put you as a driver/pilot of a vehicle or use you as a brain in a jar trainer for aspirants to teach them things when they are not in the field (like a live in drill sergeant/spy/motivational speaker 24/7). I don't think the marines would be wasteful of any resource they are able to keep, and it is a nice way for them to get around that 1000 person cap, so they don't really count...

As for why the Rhino...the purpose of the vehicle is to get troops from point A to point B quickly, not to fight from. They are used when other forms of transport won't work, so it has to cross some really rough terrain. The Rhino is also easily repairable, tough enough to push through artillery, but not dedicated AT weapons to make sure the drivers/commanders don't try to play mini-tank, and can carry all sorts of things, not just troops. I think of it like the technicals in the MENA or the Ford Rangers of the ANA...really good for fast motorized ops, turns infantry into dragoons (ride into battle, fight dismounted), but they are NOT IFVs of AFVs...

-STS

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population on the other hand a few death worlds are able to supply a fair number of guard regiments, catcha I'm looking at you,. so maybe not.

It's also likely that the Space Wolves have a number of alied worlds with interlocking commitments and responsabilities dating back to the great crusade. I tend to suspect most first founding chapters do, and the real big differance between the ultramarines and everything is formalization.

Idk why but I remember something about Catachan having about 10 million people on it living in the human enclaves. With guard regiments numbering a kinda silly number that might be as low as a 1000, its not hard to see how even a world like Catachan can raise a few dozen regiments. But the manpower requirements to crew such a large fleet would be much higher. If say the SW have 50 capital ships (as their fleet is the size of multiple chapters and each chapter has at least 10 capitals, 1 per company) that would require about 10.000 crew each to pull out a random number (which seems low given that plenty of Imperial ships have manual reload crews) couple that to a few times that number in escorts and you're looking at crew requirements possibly in the millions. While the SW might draw this from other worlds, I don't think I have ever seen mention of SW serfs in the fluff that aren't Fenrisian.

As for the 1000 number, its a stupid number and GW should really just overhaul it with an extra 0 taped on. Because now you have to headcannon a 1000 plus the guys crewing vehicles/the guys crewing chapter warships/the guys in the fortress monastries on each planet they own etc. You would roughly need another 1000 just to be able to fulfill all the off screen tasks.

To go back to the SW fleet and the 1000~ number. We know the SW might number about 2400~ if at max for the 12 companies. But then you realize that they have a story of a SW escort on patrol being boarded by Red Corsairs with a squad of SW on board. Being generous and say the squad was 5 dudes, it still means they might have over at least 500 marines on space ships at all times (50 capital ships plus at least 1 escort per capital, with 5 being a terribly low amount on a capital ship). That's at least a fifth of their combat strength sucked up on non vital SM duties.

The 1000 limit is one of those things that would have required 5 minutes of thought to tape a 0 to when it comes to the fluff to make some more sense, which shows how silly GW sometimes gets.

well SM warships HAVE been noted as having lower numbers of physical crew then imperial navy, relying heavily on servitors. but yeah it's a bit odd for sure

Has weight-bearing come up?

As noted, the Rh1n0 base model was intended to be capable of everything, including being a tractor.

Marines in power armour (according to some books, anyway) can weigh around a ton. So, you need a transport vehicle that can transport 11 tons of Space Marine rapidly over all-terrain.

I'm not sure a Chimera would be able to do that.

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.

6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.

6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.

If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.

6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.

If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

To be honest any kind of sustainability is questionable after the mess of Siege of Fenris. I don't think anyone really thought about that in the writing department.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.

6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.

If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

To be honest any kind of sustainability is questionable after the mess of Siege of Fenris. I don't think anyone really thought about that in the writing department.

I bet they did. *eyes Gulliman and the Primaris Marines* seems conveniant no?

People have pointed out how cheap and cheerful the rhino is, but i don't think that fits in with the rest of the marine aesthetic, they use bolters which require regular maintenance etc.
I don't buy the argument that the marines are the firepower either, what happens when there rushing forward into the attack? etc. there massively under-manned as is, going by what i have
read about special forces they use overwhelming and accurate firepower to win, more firepower would never be turned down.
I think the idea that they are reliable and adaptable has legs but that's what the marines will be using when there enemy turns anything equal to or stronger then a H.bolter at them!
going by G.W. logic there are about 10 per company. (sic. I'm a bit out of date on background fluff) one getting knocked out by a mine or hit at long range could split or slow there attack
massively that is not good for what is essentially 150 ish men. It however appears there stuck with it for reasons others have pointed out.

I have always had the idea (personal fluff warning) that the marines don't use 10 rhinos per company but 100.
That way in an attack they can combat squad and still have a 1 in 5 chance of them shooting a different rhino (might explain how 10 marines and there equipment fit, they don't!)
Its ablative armour at its finest.
what do the other rhinos do?
bring up ammunition and extra gear (different weapons for when the marines mission or the terrain requires a different gun flamer for bunker assault plasma for long range anti armour)
Extra battle taxis if there's gets hit. Ambulances, there extremely valuable you wouldn't want them lying on the field and you might not be able to get flyers close to the front.
Q ships or fire ships pack 'em full of explosives or even smoke producing equipment. loads of reasons really you can prob. come up with your own.
I have always wondered why the OLD predator had av 13 but used the same piece as the rhino, maybe a "TRUE" rhino, the one used by the marines, actually has that extra armour.

Honestly the Chimera is more Akin to a Razorback in function. A Light fighting vehicle able to support infantry, and transport infantry into combat. (IFV)

The rhino is an honest to god APC - Armored Personnel Carrier. It carries people from A-B quickly on the ground when an aerial pickup is unfeasible. Any weaponry on it is secondary.

I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Has weight-bearing come up?

As noted, the Rh1n0 base model was intended to be capable of everything, including being a tractor.

Marines in power armour (according to some books, anyway) can weigh around a ton. So, you need a transport vehicle that can transport 11 tons of Space Marine rapidly over all-terrain.

I'm not sure a Chimera would be able to do that.

If I remember right the same forgeworld stuff that mentioned armour thickness mentioned the rhino has a steeper climbing angle than the chimera as well, which I guess would suggest it has more torque; which I guess makes sense given its four engines. I don't remember the details exactly at the moment, so this is just off the top of my head.

 KTG17 wrote:
I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

It really shouldnt. A chimera goes againts all the spacemarine design cues and their ethos.

You fight from within a chimera, using its lasgun points and multilaser to attack the foe, then leave the tank to enter buildings or other ground impassable to the chimera(under covering fire from the multilaser).
A rhino brings you up to the enemy so you can dismount and bolter them to death, then race across their cooling corpses to assault your objective.

A spacemarine wants to be outside his transport, facing his foes. He only uses a transport to get him closer, or to make him temporarily immune to sniper fire.
A guardsman wants to be behind armour plate, plugging away with a reactor fed lasgun and he would stay there all battle unless the sergeant told him otherwise.

A rhino looks futuristic and brutal and is surrounded by access points.
A chimera looks archaic and has one access point.

I agree the marines would be more effective if chapters were 100,000 strong and they fought using heavily armed transports like chimeras and batteries of basilisks but then they would be Iron Warriors, and that's already a thing.

 =Angel= wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

It really shouldnt. A chimera goes againts all the spacemarine design cues and their ethos.

You fight from within a chimera, using its lasgun points and multilaser to attack the foe, then leave the tank to enter buildings or other ground impassable to the chimera(under covering fire from the multilaser).
A rhino brings you up to the enemy so you can dismount and bolter them to death, then race across their cooling corpses to assault your objective.

A spacemarine wants to be outside his transport, facing his foes. He only uses a transport to get him closer, or to make him temporarily immune to sniper fire.
A guardsman wants to be behind armour plate, plugging away with a reactor fed lasgun and he would stay there all battle unless the sergeant told him otherwise.

A rhino looks futuristic and brutal and is surrounded by access points.
A chimera looks archaic and has one access point.

I agree the marines would be more effective if chapters were 100,000 strong and they fought using heavily armed transports like chimeras and batteries of basilisks but then they would be Iron Warriors, and that's already a thing.

I think this is more GW not knowing much about the military.
From what i have read (though anyone with any experience please correct me) you dont want to fight in an IFV. You look like a tank, you shoot almost like a tank but you have nowhere near the armour and when they shoot you there going to treat you like a tank.
The chimera was just a BMP design, they had ports so you could fire out but it was ridiculously inaccurate (i read once there idea was to dismount fire a mag. full auto then just charge, so perfect for guard)
It was never meant for fighting in.
The western approach is much more deploy the troops and support them, that could work with both probably the marines even more providing accurate fire whilst they keep advancing.

The BMP and vehicles similar to it are armed enough to support an infantry advance, but are not intended to "attack" armour, or heavily defended installations. Just some MG's and autocannons to put some enemy heads down, tackle some bunkers and generally assist in a light infantry action. Many have defensive anti-tank weapons which can be used in a pinch, but they're not going out and hunting down enemy armour. It's more of a "oh gak, a tank appeared!" kind of thing.

A BMP approaching might not be a threat to a tank, but to an entrenched infantry unit, or a light reconnaissance vehicle, a couple of sandbag bunkers, etc....the BMP is a threat.

Something like a Rhino is more about moving faster than walking, and carrying extra ammo, water, and food with you in the process...and if it stops some small arms fire or shrapnel? Bonus. Two entirely different concepts. Hence why the Rhino does precisely what it does. Does it have a place on the 40K tabletop? Not terribly, no. It would have realistically dropped its marines off half a kilometer behind the engagement, but it's a cool model kit and is oddly survivable in the game.

Jazzpot1707 wrote:


I think this is more GW not knowing much about the military.
From what i have read (though anyone with any experience please correct me) you dont want to fight in an IFV. You look like a tank, you shoot almost like a tank but you have nowhere near the armour and when they shoot you there going to treat you like a tank.

Guard deployment usually means that if the enemy have the AT to trouble the chimera's front, there will be a battletank somewhere near you to draw fire. Enemy gunners will be trying to stop the battlecannons, siege guns and 11 barrels of hell. Any AT they waste one the chimera is a bonus- the Russes and holy Baneblades will be that more survivable.

If the guard are deploying on such a small scale that an armoured platoon is heading in unsupported, its likely the enemy don't have long range antitank.

 Elbows wrote:
The BMP and vehicles similar to it are armed enough to support an infantry advance, but are not intended to "attack" armour, or heavily defended installations. Just some MG's and autocannons to put some enemy heads down, tackle some bunkers and generally assist in a light infantry action. Many have defensive anti-tank weapons which can be used in a pinch, but they're not going out and hunting down enemy armour. It's more of a "oh gak, a tank appeared!" kind of thing.

A BMP approaching might not be a threat to a tank, but to an entrenched infantry unit, or a light reconnaissance vehicle, a couple of sandbag bunkers, etc....the BMP is a threat.

Something like a Rhino is more about moving faster than walking, and carrying extra ammo, water, and food with you in the process...and if it stops some small arms fire or shrapnel? Bonus. Two entirely different concepts. Hence why the Rhino does precisely what it does. Does it have a place on the 40K tabletop? Not terribly, no. It would have realistically dropped its marines off half a kilometer behind the engagement, but it's a cool model kit and is oddly survivable in the game.

Agreed but marines are meant to be independent try telling the marine that a tank appearing is ok the preds will deal with it. What preds? oh those ones that are supprting the advance and are vastly outnumbered by the enemy.
I get what your saying but the enemy is going to deploy there AT all over the place, there not going to deploy it specifically to counter the tank threat.
I.E. Oh look a rh1n0 and all we have is this AT missile should we shoot?
Nah lets wait till those guys in really tough armour with exploding bullets get out then we'll shoot, because you know missiles cost money , and we don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

Jazzpot1707 wrote:


I think this is more GW not knowing much about the military.
From what i have read (though anyone with any experience please correct me) you dont want to fight in an IFV. You look like a tank, you shoot almost like a tank but you have nowhere near the armour and when they shoot you there going to treat you like a tank.

Guard deployment usually means that if the enemy have the AT to trouble the chimera's front, there will be a battletank somewhere near you to draw fire. Enemy gunners will be trying to stop the battlecannons, siege guns and 11 barrels of hell. Any AT they waste one the chimera is a bonus- the Russes and holy Baneblades will be that more survivable.

If the guard are deploying on such a small scale that an armoured platoon is heading in unsupported, its likely the enemy don't have long range antitank.

The marines don't deploy with the guard there independent. The marines would deploy like a barely supported armoured platoon. (what 10 Rh1nos, 3-5 preds, a few vinds. and whrilwinds if there lucky a landraider or 2)

I agree that you will shoot at the biggest threat but when the only threat is an IFV (as it was in iraq) or a poorly armoured APC (one that could be holed by a H.bolter or an autocannon which wont make a dent in a pred.)
You will shoot.
This all says to me it doesn't matter if you can get to the battlefield but if you can't survive that initial salvo without losing 1K of battlefield experience your a poor transport
To be fair neither fit the marines bill. That's why i said they use 100 instead of 10
They have the capacity just change everything 1 company to 1 legion company (1000 marines i think on average)
My point is there enemys know about the marine is spread all over the propaganda ETC.
so why wouldn't they shoot those guys in there paper armour vehicle that shoot EXPLODING BOLTS and deal with the armoured threat that really couldn't deal with A simple guided
missile team (no explosive round) later.

I'm not sure what your response meant...but, okay? Either it was an unrelated tangent, or you misunderstood my post.

My apologies i wasn't very clear. I think that the main confusion I'm putting out is that marines shouldn't really be using either. They shouldn't be portrayed as an armoured force, they just don't have the forces for it.
armoured infantry yes, but they don't have the tanks for armoured assaults.

What i am trying to say is that marines need to move fast get to grips with the enemy break through and keep advancing. They can't afford to be pinned down as they will
always be outnumbered. As such i think they need the equipment to do this. They can't rely on a tank to take out an enemy tank, or to deploy to take out that AT team hidden in a sandbag bunker. They might not be intended to attack tanks but that doesn't mean that a tank isn't going to attack them and the marines have very little armoured support to take that heat of them.
The marines are also intended to attack heavily defended installations not very good if your in a paper armoured transport.

I agree that the rhino should drop its forces off a mile away (it's just too vulnerable) the M113 was designed and intended for use like this.
The BMP was designed to drive straight at the enemy shooting to pin and then dumping the troops point blank (sounds alot like how marines are pictured in the literature)

But here we are so... the only way i can see the rhino fitting the marine fighting style is if they use them to zerg rush providing too many vehicles for the enemy to kill before the marines can deploy.