What do you think? There are definitely far too many overcosted (and undercosted) units at the minute, what are the most blaringly obvious units that need changes?


Please don't turn this thread into an argument about marines.

I hope guardsmen go up a point or two. They are simply too spamable.

Monolith, LR need points reductions.
Drop Pods just need.....well not sure what they need tbh.
Tervigon probably a points drop too.

Terminators across all flavours of marine.

Crisis suits.

Gitdakka wrote:
I hope guardsmen go up a point or two. They are simply too spamable.

Same could be said about Kabalites.


Overall , Hellturkey is to expensive.
I pricedrop for transports that are groundbound (Chimeras, Landraiders, Rhinos, etc of all flavours including Orkz)

Militia Squads and Mutantrabble could go down in points to 3 ppm.

The dinobot is too expensive.
Terminators of all colours are too expensive.
Maybee a slight pricdrop for regular marines overall (1-2pts)? That one is up for debate in one of the other threads though.

Most FW units in the chaos index.

Imho for necrons:

Monolith , Anni Barge , Scythes , nearly every Inf Unit by some points since RP is straight up garbage.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

heck the whole DKoK line could live comfortably well with a point reduction.

Most of the inquisition.

They missed the last chapter approved and are still paying old index marine prices on wargear - 25pts for a S6 WS5+ hammer for instance.

Also some of the ministorum. Both they and the inquisition are persona non grata as far as stratagems, relics, and chapter approved in general are concerned.

Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

They need to bring in a blanket rule that the -1 to hit doesn't stack (so the maximum modifier you have is -1).
A lot of other things tbh need more than a points adjustment.
I'd like to see the old Drop Pod Assault rule, maybe for tac squads only, so you can have a fluffy SM 1st-turn pod in?
That'd increase SM playability. But you'd have to have some careful limitations.

zerosignal wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

They need to bring in a blanket rule that the -1 to hit doesn't stack (so the maximum modifier you have is -1).
A lot of other things tbh need more than a points adjustment.
I'd like to see the old Drop Pod Assault rule, maybe for tac squads only, so you can have a fluffy SM 1st-turn pod in?
That'd increase SM playability. But you'd have to have some careful limitations.

Highly depends on what SM we are talking. Normal Tac marines would be no problem to deal with, just charge them with a chaff unit and watch them doing nothing for the rest of the game or getting out attritioned pts wise.
Elite marines would be really annnoying to deal with, and primaris DA with hellblasters would be certainly broken.

They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

Custodes Vertus Praetors need a price increase of 5-10 points per model. Custodes Terminators need a similar decrease. The Custodes Venerable Land Raider could drop by 15 points and still only be OK.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

How about... Yes!

Seriously though, whatever happens a 6 should always be a hit. Low BS armies need that bone thrown to them as a minimum.

Wraithknights need a significant point drop and/or reworking. Crisis suits should drop a little. Grey knights need...a lot of help.

 Asmodai wrote:
Custodes Vertus Praetors need a price increase of 5-10 points per model. Custodes Terminators need a similar decrease. The Custodes Venerable Land Raider could drop by 15 points and still only be OK.

Land Raiders in general are overpriced. They should all get a decrease.

Regular Custodes bikes aren't too bad, but the Captain could certainly do with a nudge up.

For Tyranids:

Tervigon: Id say over by 10ish pts at least

Tyranid prime: 20-30 pts over he should be about 70 pts b4 wargear plus give him access to MRC(at a cost of about 10 pts, Venom Cannon and barbed strangler at regular costs.

Brood lord: drop at least 12 pts to 150pts. He is good but The GSC (Paterarch is 150pts and is all around better)

Old one eye: drop 20 pts to 180pts He's beefy but with no inv he dies too easily.

Tyranid warriors: 2 ppm from 20 base to 18. This would make these the centerpiece uit they were always ment to be.

Hormigaunts down to 1ppm to match termigaunts. Yes they are faster and stabbier but no AP and shooting and 4+ WS with 6+ tshirt save is not as good as termagaunts. Also there should be a Tervigon option to birth hormagaunts

Lictors need better stats/rules or a 5-10pts reduction

Tyrannocytes need to drop about 10 pts.

Hive crone and harpy both need better rules or a points drop by 10-15pts at least.

Spore mines need to drop to 5 ppm but if this happens they must have a rule where they do not count as a unit deployed during the deployment phase.

Stux wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

How about... Yes!

Seriously though, whatever happens a 6 should always be a hit. Low BS armies need that bone thrown to them as a minimum.

That i can agree on.
I still don't understand why that mechanic was even introduced, as it stands it is completely uninteractive and in some cases denies counterplay completely for the shooting phase.
If they really want to keep the mechanic, atleast give it to specific units/equipment and then price accordingly.

-Titans. Not enough to bring them into normal size games, but they tend to be ludicrously overcosted if you play apoc with points instead of PL.

-Basically all standard battle-brother marines. Having pitiful offense in a game where killing something early negates their damage output by 5-7 times over is horrible, and their mediocre defense doesn’t save them.

-land raiders. They’re quite hard to justify when a tad more points gets you a knight. It doesn’t help that marines don’t have great options to transport in them.

-Lord Commander Dante. Apparently being the regent of half the imperium makes him hyper expensive to field while giving him no additional benefit in battle.

-terminators. I dream of the day when terminators actually have something to do with someone placing well in a big event.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-Titans. Not enough to bring them into normal size games, but they tend to be ludicrously overcosted if you play apoc with points instead of PL.

-Basically all standard battle-brother marines. Having pitiful offense in a game where killing something early negates their damage output by 5-7 times over is horrible, and their mediocre defense doesn’t save them.

-land raiders. They’re quite hard to justify when a tad more points gets you a knight. It doesn’t help that marines don’t have great options to transport in them.

-Lord Commander Dante. Apparently being the regent of half the imperium makes him hyper expensive to field while giving him no additional benefit in battle.

-terminators. I dream of the day when terminators actually have something to do with someone placing well in a big event.

you can get a full amiriger Hellverin and most of a second one. They still outperform the landraider, and since it is not an assult tank anymore it can't even be justified above rhinos for CC units

Custodes
- Terminators need a drop.
- The FW tanks need a drop. (albeit the rules are only Beta at the moment)
- Land Raider needs a drop.
- I can see Vertus Praetors going up a bit in the next CA.

Most of the larger FW stuff needs a huge drop. For some of the smaller supers like Warhounds, an increase was expected, but not to the extent they've done. Warhound and Reavers have almost tripled in points, all the Daemon Lords are way overcosted, Stompas are laughable how overpriced they are.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

I will third this. That rediculous points hike on lots of the armor and the low daemons was insane. Plus I want to see the Dreadclaw and blood slaughterers go down.

Terminators and WKs for sure need about 25% points drops at minimum, or some sort of rework.

Windriders and Shining Spears also need points adjustments.
Given the rules for them, you should be able to get 2 basic WRs for the cost of 1 Spear.
However, Spears DO NOT NEED a large points increase. 3-4ppm max. Keep in mind that the majority of what makes them "OP" are the affects from OTHER UNITS. I am not a huge advocate for making a unit pay for the abilities from other units *might* use on them.
Units should pay for what they can do with no buffs. The units that can buff should pay for being able to buff.

So bump the Spears up *a tiny bit* and drop the points of WR so that 2 WRs (w/ twincats) are equal to or less than 1 Spear.
Ideally, a single Spear should be 35-36pp, and a WR should be 16-17ppm after basic wargear
2 WRs with Shuricannon or Scatter laser can cost more than 1 Spear, however. Say 21-22ppm

If this is not done, there will continue to be ZERO reason to ever take WRs over Spears, or even Vypers.

-

Just about every main line SM unit needs a point reduction.

From the 2-3 armies I have 8th experience with:

Death Guard

Terminators need a price reduction of roughly 8 points, 3rd wound would be nice

Terminator weapon options (looking at you combi weapons) need a drastic price drop

Land Raider points need to be halved.

Rhino halved as well

DeathShroud need a t1 closer deepstrike, or a points decrease still

Foetid Bloat Drones melee weapon (probe thing) should be free

Typhus down a few points

BLood Angels:

Cheaper terminators, cheaper land raider


Adeptus Custodes:

The FW stuff is a bit overpriced for all the random shots and damage

Allarus come down in points a bit

Bikes should be more expensive, or the captain at least like said above

First off, I would increase the cost of ALL units by 20%. Doing this would allow GW to keep the points cost of tournaments and such at 2000 points, allow more space to fine-tune the "inbetween" spaces of units (with a 20% points increase, a 1 point difference between a Guardsman and a Conscript becomes less of a difference). The constant dropping of points costs across the game has started to show the strain that the system is under. Basic Tactical marines used to cost 15 points per model, with no grenades or pistols. The same model now goes for 13 points per model, and comes with all the trimmings.

Once all models cost more, then I would start trimming the cost of some units, and increasing the cost of others. I'm most familiar with my Heretic Astartes, so here's my thoughts on them:

#1 - Morty needs to cost more; Yes, he can die swiftly in the right circumstance, but he will literally win the game by himself if he isn't taken out. Plus, he's got synergies out the wazoo with all the other Heretic Astartes books, and the Daemons books.

#2 - Make Cult troops cost less; make it that if you take the God's number of model sin the squad, the models cost less per unit. It's often better for these units to either be large size for stratagem/buff abilities, or small size for resistance to morale, or just not be taken at all. A points discount when you take the Favoured Number of the god would be thematic, and make these units cost a more appropriate amount.

#3 - Daemon Princes should cost a little more, but only when they have wings; There's a huge difference in their effectiveness between having wings and not having wings. Make that difference in points wider.

#4 - Heldrakes should cost less; They have a single gun, few attacks, and don't even get the "-1 to being hit" that every other flyer has. Why the heck do they cost so much?

#5 - Chaos Terminators should cost less'; As should all Terminators. Of course, doesn't need to be much less, because as with every model with a 2+ save, it can quickly go from underpowered to overpowered quickly. If you lack any AP/multi-damage weapons, Terminators still are hard as rocks.

Everything else... could use some tweaks (Raptors/Warp Talons/Bikers/Land Raider, etc.), but these 5 are the ones that stand out for me.

Yeah, in order of priority for me, what I'd like to see out of CA:

-Space Marine mini-rework. Pretty much across-the-board we need to see points retooling, for everybody. Chaos Marines, DG, Tsons, SM, BA, DA, DW, and GK. I'd even go so far as to release new datasheets for common shared vehicles (Drop pods, Rhinos, vindys, preds, Land Raiders) that have been a major stain on every marine codex to come out. Pretty much everything that's been good out of the codexes that have had decent competitive showings (Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Chaos Marines, Death Guard and Tsons) has relied on totally bypassing the shared units that are total crap and if we want overall faction parity, we have to bring the power armored stuff up. Priority #1 for CA above all else.

Priority 2: Bring the worst offenders down a peg.

Units like

-Guard infantry bodies +1pt
-Basilisks, mortars, LR battlecannons, Baneblade weapons of various types
-Kabalite bodies +1pt
-Venoms, Raiders, Ravagers, Disintegrators
-Shining spears, Dark Reapers, Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks
-Nurgle daemon stuff, daemon princes, Ahriman

Priority 3: beta rules to approach systemic imbalances

Priority 1 and 2 are first because 2 is easy money, comparatively the easiest balance lever GW has is unit level point adjustment, and priority 1 is getting stupidly glaring and needs a blanket fix. If Games Workshop is unwilling to fix marines on an individual basis because that would be "unfair" to have say, blood angels and onward having functional shared units/chapter tactics etc...well then you've gotta fix it all at once.

Priority 3 gets tricky. You want to fix stuff like soup CP generation, issues with the cover system, and issues with turn 1 being this massive priority, but it's equally as easy to screw over armies that aren't overly powerful with hamfisted blanket rules.

I'm hoping to see more than just points changes but I'm not counting on it.

CP regeneration abilities shouldn't stack no rolling 2 dice for each CP spent.

But the most common issues and hence needed points changes are

-Guard to loose acess to grand strategist warlord trait/kurov's aquila.

-Guard infantry squad statline models need +1pt infantry squads HWsquads etc.
-Basilisks, mortars, LR battlecannons, Baneblade weapons of various types all need points increased.
-Custodes Bikes need serious points increased
-Basic custodes need minor points drops
-Any Aldari unit with -1 to hit natively needs a points increase or something as it's auto -2 or more to hit.
-units with acess to -1to hit buffs need atleast points double checked. 
-Demon princes wings need to cost more
-Most Forgeworld models need points drops
- Crisis suits and Ghostkeels needs points drops.
-Terminators, landraiders all need points reductions
-Centurions need stupidly large points drops
-psychic powers could do with a balance across the factions.

*Orks need a codex before we can see where they are before anyone has a fit

Guard infantry +1 point per model please.

Dire Avenger: -1ppm
Dire Avenger Exarch: +7ppm

A handful of often-offenders in the CWE book need to go up a little:
-Reapers
-Spears
-Hemlock
-CH
-Serpent

Many things, though, should go down a least a little:
-Banshees
-Scorpions
-Wraithlord
-Asurman
-Falcon
-Night Spinner
-Firestorm

Some need to go down a lot:
-All other Phoenix Lords
-Avatar
-Wraithknight
-Storm Guardians
-Windriders

Just give Space Marines Chapter Tactics on all of their units. Same goes for their Chaos variants.

Biasn wrote:
Imho for necrons:

Monolith , Anni Barge , Scythes , nearly every Inf Unit by some points since RP is straight up garbage.

I'm not sure I agree with the doom scythes. Their effectiveness is not good but they have the most OP strategem when running 3 of them. However the strategem is useless is 1 dies so I don't know how to judge this. I tabled a guard player basically turn 1 since I went first and was able to get the strategem off. With the way eh was castled up I completely destroyed so many units.

Let me see... it might be easier to list Ork units that don't need a point adjustment.*

Boyz

*Of course, this is if we don't get a codex before CA. Which we might not. Also, sarcasm, but only somewhat.

Ice_can wrote:
I'm hoping to see more than just points changes but I'm not counting on it.

CP regeneration abilities shouldn't stack no rolling 2 dice for each CP spent.

But the most common issues and hence needed points changes are

-Guard to loose acess to grand strategist warlord trait/kurov's aquila.

-Guard infantry squad statline models need +1pt infantry squads HWsquads etc.
-Basilisks, mortars, LR battlecannons, Baneblade weapons of various types all need points increased.
-Custodes Bikes need serious points increased
-Basic custodes need minor points drops
-Any Aldari unit with -1 to hit natively needs a points increase or something as it's auto -2 or more to hit.
-units with acess to -1to hit buffs need atleast points double checked. 
-Demon princes wings need to cost more
-Most Forgeworld models need points drops
- Crisis suits and Ghostkeels needs points drops.
-Terminators, landraiders all need points reductions
-Centurions need stupidly large points drops
-psychic powers could do with a balance across the factions.

*Orks need a codex before we can see where they are before anyone has a fit

Woah that's exactly my opinion too, I think we all agree here on these changes to happen as soon as possible

From my perspective the following units need updated points cost;

Forge World:
Renegades and Heretics need to be cheaper. a Militia should be worth less than a guardsmen. He has worse armor, worse accuracy, worse leadership, and worse special rules. This can be fixed by Militia going to 3 points or Guard going to 5 points, but not both.
Hellforged Scorpius needs to be more expensive
Leviathan Dread needs to be more expensive

Obliterators either need to be 3 shots, or have a price increase. We can all agree that they were worthless with Assault 2 guns, and I think we can all agree that they are too good with Assault 4 guns. I feel that 3 will be the sweet spot but since CA would likely just adjust points, they could use a bump.

Otherwse, I agree that CSM's other units can ride along with a Space Marine rework and be fine. Otherwise minor point drops for Power Armored Marines and a large point drop for Terminators would help bring other troop options aside from Cultists to the forefront. Cult Marines are closer, but not quite there, as it is telling that Plague Marines and Rubric Marines are not really fielded in large numbers even in their own codexes.

I agree that Eldar could probably use further tweaks to Reapers, Shining Spears, and Hemlocks. However generally Eldar are only really a huge problem when stacking negative hit modifiers. Alaitoc needs to have its army trait removed, or Eldar need to lose access to Lightning Fast Reflexes and Conceal. Its currently too easy to stack negative to hit modifiers and it makes the game unfun to play. Its not fair to players of other craftworlds to reprice everything to make Alaitoc "fair", and far better to just change the Alaitoc trait to something else (something like enemy units subtract 6 inches from the range of their attack). A potent ability but easier to work around.

Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

He also had some ghost looking guys with a ton of shots that were able to walk around at a -3 to hit. Don't get me started on the flyers...

Speaking of eldar soup, Doom needs a fix. It should only apply to units with the same faction or even craftworld as the jerk who casts it. Ynarri dark reapers are still too strong.

Shining spears need a cost boost and along with re-balancing the eldar powers/casters it should help fighting against them feeling like such an up-hill battle.

The no deepstrike until 2nd turn needs to go, that or reduce the price of units that can deepstrike significantly. This rule basically cuts their offensive out-put by 20% (most games reaching a conclusion by turn 5, missing out on turn 1 = 20% reduction in firepower) Inceptors are really hurt by this rule as they are too squishy to have on the table turn 1 but if they can't land until turn 2 their fire-power is significantly reduced.

Power armor for marines goes to 2+, termies to 1+ AND offensive output gets looked at. I'm not for across the board point reductions, I'd rather have buffs (or GW can nerf the 60% of over-performing units but I don't think that will happen.)

Charging mechanic needs a look. Someone suggested movement +d6. Sounds good to me (after failing 9" charges on 3d6 4 times, twice with re-rolls, in one game and 2 times the next anything that makes getting in more reliable I'm a fan of)

Kill command points gained by detachments. Each army gets 10-12 for being battle-forged.

No command point regens. Removing stacking re-gen re-rolls should be a no-brainier but I'd like them to go one step further and get rid of the mechanic all together.

Space marines need a lot of help. I never see bikers, centurians, termanators, assault guys, non-fw dreads, preds, vindis, land raiders...pretty much anything that isn't a scout or a character needs a re-write (including strats and tactics). Probably not going to happen but after trying to put together an army that can fight knights and eldar I'm not seeing a way out (outside of new primarchs...) with the way space marines are currently constructed.

Grey knights need a new codex.

Second the +1 point per guard infantry. I'd also like to see their HQs get more expensive, pay even more for their bs 3+ guns, mortars need an increase, manticores and basies could go up 5-10 points.

Dark eldar. Blow it up and try again. Disi-cannons are crazy. Vect should only be use once per game turn. Ravagers are too cheap, hell everything you see on a table is too cheap (grots, witches, kabalites, lances, blasters, the sail boats and the flyers).

That relic knight cannon is too good. The CqC one is too cheap. Rotate ion shields is dumb. 28 wounds with a 3++ is broken (cap it at a 4++).

I disagree that the bike captains are overpriced unless we start bumping similar units (tau commanders, nid flyrants and chaos winged demon princes, especially the Tzeentch ones). The regular bikers probably should see a 2-5 point increase though. The rest of the book needs to come down 10%ish. All termies need re-balancing.

Speaking of nids. The fire twice for hive guard makes them broken. Get rid of the strat, boost its cost or deal with the hive-guard.

VoTLW shouldn't apply to cultists and abaddon shouldn't make them fearless. Didn't we already go through this with conscripts? Ahriman needs more points. Demons with wings need more points. Power armor needs help, termies need help (but are better than loyalists due to special weapon saturation)

Tesseract vaults need a look. Destroyers are really good. The rest of the codex probably needs some point reductions.

Hell take a look through the 2018 etc lists. If it is on more than 5-6 teams it needs a hike. If it is on 3 or less it needs a reduction.

That turned into quite a rant. I could keep going but I don't think any of it will be done or if it is will be undone by the introduction of orcs and space wolves. Hopefully 9th edition is more balanced and this edition was just to put the framework up.

Did GW ever fix a codex with a CA, or do people always have to wait for a new codex first for fixs?

Because from what I feel, point drops alone would either make GK cost less then normal marines to make them good, or would be to small, and GK would be less efficient custodes.

Eldar

-Avatar needs a reduction, he's pretty horrible.
-Wraithknight looks...almost unfixable via CA it's so bad.
-Shining Spears need to go up a small amount.
-Windriders need to go down a small amount.
-Phoenix Lords need a slight drop, if only because of their lack of invuln saves.
-Vypers sit in a kind of pointless spot and may need some kind fo adjustment, but I'm not sure their points are off.
-Dark Reapers could stand to go up a few more points, though they're better pointed now than before.
-Warlocks need to go back down in points. They're complete garbage for their cost, but are being pointed into the stratosphere because of their spell access.

Chaos

-Terminators in desperate need of reduction.
-Land Raider needs a small 10-15% reduction to make it properly viable
-Predator could do with a minor drop simply because they don't match up at all vs. IG tanks for similar cost (or give the Predator a double-fire at half move turret, etc.)
-Generic Space Marines and their Chaos buddies could easily drop to 10-11 points per model instead of 13. They're not awful, but tough to justify.
-If 'Raptors' don't get a rules boost they need a points drop or something to make them remotely viable.

Reduce the cost of Vox Casters. Or has that been done already? I don’t remember.

bananathug wrote:
Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

This is the kind of rules exploit I hate, because it relies on people not knowing the choices that they have.

You have to fight with all models who are eligible to fight.

You don't have to pile in, meaning you don't have to make models eligible to fight.

Just pick one model to be the sacrifice that's in base to base with him, and take the casualties he causes away from other models within 1". Then, choose not to pile in on your turn. The only model that will be forced to fight him will be the one directly next to him, and then if (when) the unit takes at least one mortal wound from the suit, you remove that model.

The solitaire doesn't get to pile in (it's your fight phase now, not his) so he's stuck out of combat, and he's burned 2 psychic powers and 2CPs just to cause 1-2 mortal wounds. Incidentally, -4 is not right, the max you can get to is -3, by debuffing the unit you're going to charge, buffing him, and spending the stratagem for that phase.

Then you just shoot him. The one unit he charged will be at -2 to hit, but everyone else will be at -1 to hit. He dies on average to 2 FRFSRF'd guard squads the following turn.

bananathug wrote:
Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

He also had some ghost looking guys with a ton of shots that were able to walk around at a -3 to hit. Don't get me started on the flyers...

I'm trying to think through this, let me see if I got this right.
Harlequin Psychic Power: Veil of Tears (attacks made vs unit are -1 to hit)
Harlequin Psychic Power: Fog of Dreams (your unit must -1 to hit)
Craftworld Psychic Power: Drain (your unit must -1 to hit in fight phase)
Strategem- 2 CP: Lightning Fast Reflexes (attacks made vs unit are -1 to hit for phase)

Grand total of -4 to hit. Hilariously, you would only actually be able to hit him on a 7 if your unit was WS3. Which means technically you are just rolling to hurt yourself :(. Still the full combo requires 3 psychic powers (which cannot be cast on any other units) as well as a 2 CP strategem. So their is some counter play, but it is absurdly brutal, and I agree that it would be unfun to play against. What needs to happen is GW needs to either cap negative hit modifiers at -1 or -2, and/or release a rule stating that natural rolls of a 6 are always successful. Either way, negative hit modifiers are a cancer on the game.

 akaean wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

He also had some ghost looking guys with a ton of shots that were able to walk around at a -3 to hit. Don't get me started on the flyers...

I'm trying to think through this, let me see if I got this right.
Harlequin Psychic Power: Veil of Tears (attacks made vs unit are -1 to hit)
Harlequin Psychic Power: Fog of Dreams (your unit must -1 to hit)
Craftworld Psychic Power: Drain (your unit must -1 to hit in fight phase)
Strategem- 2 CP: Lightning Fast Reflexes (attacks made vs unit are -1 to hit for phase)

Grand total of -4 to hit. Hilariously, you would only actually be able to hit him on a 7 if your unit was WS3. Which means technically you are just rolling to hurt yourself :(. Still the full combo requires 3 psychic powers (which cannot be cast on any other units) as well as a 2 CP strategem. So their is some counter play, but it is absurdly brutal, and I agree that it would be unfun to play against. What needs to happen is GW needs to either cap negative hit modifiers at -1 or -2, and/or release a rule stating that natural rolls of a 6 are always successful. Either way, negative hit modifiers are a cancer on the game.

See my explanation. Beyond the casualties caused by the solitaire attacking, there is no reason for an opponent to take more than the mortal wounds that would be caused by one of his models' attacks.

At risk of sounding flippant

stop hittin' yourself.

Solid advice Scots! Thanks. Would you shoot me a PM regarding how exactly it is a -3 maximum. I swear the guy had a native -1, a spell on my unit for another -1, a spell on him? for a -1 and another strat on him for a fourth -1. I don't own any eldar codexes so I kind of just took his word for it. [never mind, already answered]

Problem is I was using a unit of mixed primaris and the aggressors bases are soo big that he charged into two that were within 1" of 4 models each. He chose to fight with his fists so his attacks didn't kill anything in my unit and then I had to fight back with the aggressors and the aggressors on either side and the 3 inceptors behind them (they were all piled up because they were in cover and the terrain made them all wobbly model so I clumped them up so that they wouldn't fall down). So thats 20 attacks, no sixes and then he only failed to proc one, re-rolled that with a command point so 20 mortal wounds or 10 dead primaris (I did shoot the hell out of him the next turn though) but it was still stupid that I couldn't hit him if I had wanted to. Thank god he couldn't pile into anything after that...

It's one of my problems with 40k at the moment is I'm supposed to place my models exactly 1.25" apart but then I have to do it ontop of terrain that isn't level. It would take me so long to precisely space out each of my models but unless I can get my opponent to agree that the spacing is exactly that then I'm open to these types of shenanigans.

Also with his tiny base and flip belt if I'm not spaced exactly right he can squeeze in between and then I'm fully screwed. The orc guy may have it better because he might actually lose some models when he gets charged.

The need to micro measure models in order to prevent this type of junk is why games between highly competitive players shouldn't have time-clocks and could easily last 4-5 hours. I was happy to play all of my games to completion but in doing so opened myself up to these types of problems.

Definitely need to cap modifier stacking to one instance per player.

I'd be curious what would happen if Grey Knights were able to ignore the one cast per power rule along with some point changes.

Bike captains are too cheap. No clue how much. I think Guard themselves are probably fine; they could go up, but I feel like its the cheap HQs that make them stand out more than they should.

There are others if I really think about it, but honestly, the two big outliers seem to be modifier stacking and Grey Knight's just being hilariously underpowered. Before I spent too much time tweaking points, I'd want to do something about those and see what happens.

EDIT: Bonus rule. I'd be curious to see AoS's 30" denial range in 40k.

Need to go up:

Dissy cannons.
Talos.
All DE jets.
Grotesques.
Kabalites.

Farseer jetbikes.
Dark reapers.

Leviathan dreads.
Venerable dreads.

Shield drones.
Fire warriors.
Tau FW flyer.
FW Riptide.

Necron destroyers.
Doomsday arks.
Destroyer lords.
C'tan Shards.

Guardsmen.
Primaris psykers.
Leman Russes.
Manticores.
Mortar teams.
Basilisks.
Hell hounds.
Scions.
Any source of IG orders.
Master of ordinance. "
Volcano Cannon.

All FW Impierial Knights.

Demon princes.
Slannesh havocs.
Ahriman.
Vortex beasts.
Chaos leviathan dread
Alpha legion berserkers.

All babycarriers.

Battle sisters.
Canoness.
FW Sister transport.

Put me in the camp as mainly wanting to see power armor marines get a buff or point decrease. I'd also love to see marine factions finally get chapter tactics on their vehicles.

As for general rules:
Cap of -1 to hit modifiers (outside of heavy which would stack for a -2),
Command points only work for the faction that generated them. So a guard battalion gives you 5CP to use on guard stratagems only.

the_scotsman wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

This is the kind of rules exploit I hate, because it relies on people not knowing the choices that they have.

You have to fight with all models who are eligible to fight.

You don't have to pile in, meaning you don't have to make models eligible to fight.

Just pick one model to be the sacrifice that's in base to base with him, and take the casualties he causes away from other models within 1". Then, choose not to pile in on your turn. The only model that will be forced to fight him will be the one directly next to him, and then if (when) the unit takes at least one mortal wound from the suit, you remove that model.

The solitaire doesn't get to pile in (it's your fight phase now, not his) so he's stuck out of combat, and he's burned 2 psychic powers and 2CPs just to cause 1-2 mortal wounds. Incidentally, -4 is not right, the max you can get to is -3, by debuffing the unit you're going to charge, buffing him, and spending the stratagem for that phase.

Then you just shoot him. The one unit he charged will be at -2 to hit, but everyone else will be at -1 to hit. He dies on average to 2 FRFSRF'd guard squads the following turn.

This is a really good example of the type of thing that's really not as overpowered as it sounds, but because people (a) don't know how to handle it and (b) don't know what the actual rules are, other players get away with pushing the bounds. I really think the whole -1 to hit - even stacked - isn't nearly as bad as people think it is.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Can I be another voice for the getting rid of stacking negs to hit.

Played against an eldar soup army this weekend and got charged by a harlequin HQ. After strats and spells this dude was -4 to hit in melee. That's right -4.

Oh and he had that stupid suit of knives meaning that any attack I rolled that wasn't a 6 proc'ed mortal wounds on my unit on a 2. And just for some more insult to injury GW FAQ'd I HAD to attack with my unit (I couldn't just decline to fight him because I couldn't hit him...). I felt really bad for the orc player that went against him the next round.

This is the kind of rules exploit I hate, because it relies on people not knowing the choices that they have.

You have to fight with all models who are eligible to fight.

You don't have to pile in, meaning you don't have to make models eligible to fight.

Just pick one model to be the sacrifice that's in base to base with him, and take the casualties he causes away from other models within 1". Then, choose not to pile in on your turn. The only model that will be forced to fight him will be the one directly next to him, and then if (when) the unit takes at least one mortal wound from the suit, you remove that model.

The solitaire doesn't get to pile in (it's your fight phase now, not his) so he's stuck out of combat, and he's burned 2 psychic powers and 2CPs just to cause 1-2 mortal wounds. Incidentally, -4 is not right, the max you can get to is -3, by debuffing the unit you're going to charge, buffing him, and spending the stratagem for that phase.

Then you just shoot him. The one unit he charged will be at -2 to hit, but everyone else will be at -1 to hit. He dies on average to 2 FRFSRF'd guard squads the following turn.

This is a really good example of the type of thing that's really not as overpowered as it sounds, but because people (a) don't know how to handle it and (b) don't know what the actual rules are, so other players get away with pushing the bounds. I really think the whole -1 to hit - even stacked - isn't nearly as bad as people think it is.

No, stacking - to hit can get really goofy, I'm 100% in agreement that we need to bring back the 6 being autohit and I also advocate that they reverse the stupid ruling where you can hyper-punish "bad things on a roll of 1" type rules.

I have a suspicion that that ruling was put out early in the edition as a spider to swallow the fly of plasma spam. And now that everyone has traits and strats and psychic powers and - to hit are flying around everywhere, it's gotten really stupid.

The solitaire thing is essentially an exploit, though. Or..whatever you call a thing designed to take advantage of someone not knowing what they can and can't do? A noob trap? You just have to compare the damage that it usually does versus the damage that the solitaire would do with his regular melee weapon + the damage that three smites would have done to the unit instead of the three powers required to be cast on them to see that it's not actually that good.

Martel732 wrote:


Need to go up:

Necron destroyers.
Doomsday arks.
Destroyer lords.
C'tan Shards

If DDA and Shards go up you might aswell remove them from the codex.

Biasn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Need to go up:

Necron destroyers.
Doomsday arks.
Destroyer lords.
C'tan Shards

If DDA and Shards go up you might aswell remove them from the codex.

I think they're considerably too effective for their cost.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I really think the whole -1 to hit - even stacked - isn't nearly as bad as people think it is.

The problem is just that a D6 has a miserably small viable curve. 1+ and 7+ are problematic for fairly obvious reasons, so you're left with 2-6. Even then, 2 and 6 are huge shifts from 3 and 5, making those pretty harsh cutoffs for the dice curve. A single hit modifier is a pretty substantial change in expected output. Two is dramatic, particularly without much in the way of positive modifiers to counteract it beyond just having better stats to begin with.

 LunarSol wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I really think the whole -1 to hit - even stacked - isn't nearly as bad as people think it is.

The problem is just that a D6 has a miserably small viable curve. 1+ and 7+ are problematic for fairly obvious reasons, so you're left with 2-6. Even then, 2 and 6 are huge shifts from 3 and 5, making those pretty harsh cutoffs for the dice curve. A single hit modifier is a pretty substantial change in expected output. Two is dramatic, particularly without much in the way of positive modifiers to counteract it beyond just having better stats to begin with.

Math is a harsh mistress.

The effectiveness of destroyers has nothing to do with the unit itself and everything to do with Extermination Protocols... If you're going to adjust something, it should be the cost of that stratagem, not the cost of destroyers.

Still, giving across the board nerfs to every good unit for what has turned out to be one of the worst major factions in the game is... questionable.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The effectiveness of destroyers has nothing to do with the unit itself and everything to do with Extermination Protocols... If you're going to adjust something, it should be the cost of that stratagem, not the cost of destroyers.

Still, giving across the board nerfs to every good unit for what has turned out to be one of the worst major factions in the game is... questionable.

I tried to hit all the spammed gak. Also "go up" could mean very little. Or, like for FW IKs, could mean a LOT.

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The effectiveness of destroyers has nothing to do with the unit itself and everything to do with Extermination Protocols... If you're going to adjust something, it should be the cost of that stratagem, not the cost of destroyers.

Still, giving across the board nerfs to every good unit for what has turned out to be one of the worst major factions in the game is... questionable.

I tried to hit all the spammed gak. Also "go up" could mean very little. Or, like for FW IKs, could mean a LOT.

"Spammed gak"

"FW IKs"

Alright bud.

/facepalm

Spamming is not a necessary condition; spammed units have a tendency to be too good. FW IKs are blatant outliers compared to the codex IKs.

The CSM codex as a whole is about 10 percent overcosted IMO.

Some units are ok, like most cult marines, some should cost a bit more, like Obliterators and Cultists if similar units in other codices go up as well.

And some units are terribly overcosted. Even if Plasma and Disintegrator Cannons were not spammable like they are now, Terminators would suck hard.
Predators and Vindicators are some really bad tanks, as well as the Forgefiend.
Comparing a Helldrake to an IG Hellhounds, the Helldrake should probably cost 130 points at most.

Special weapons need a complete revamp costwise. That would help bikers, melters, chosen and Havocs a lot.
Most melee weapons are overcosted as well given how poorly anything that is not a Khorne Berzerker or a Dprince performs
in melee.

And finally, give all units in the codex access to the Chapter Tactics.

Price drops require a lot more thought, since there are hundreds and hundreds of unused units currently. Some might come back into play just from increases on others.

Martel732 wrote:
/facepalm

Spamming is not a necessary condition; spammed units have a tendency to be too good. FW IKs are blatant outliers compared to the codex IKs.

You can tell by all the Imperial Knight lists at tournaments which use Forge World Kni- oh wait.

 akaean wrote:
From my perspective the following units need updated points cost;

Forge World:
Renegades and Heretics need to be cheaper. a Militia should be worth less than a guardsmen. He has worse armor, worse accuracy, worse leadership, and worse special rules. This can be fixed by Militia going to 3 points or Guard going to 5 points, but not both.
Hellforged Scorpius needs to be more expensive
Leviathan Dread needs to be more expensive

I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The effectiveness of destroyers has nothing to do with the unit itself and everything to do with Extermination Protocols... If you're going to adjust something, it should be the cost of that stratagem, not the cost of destroyers.

Still, giving across the board nerfs to every good unit for what has turned out to be one of the worst major factions in the game is... questionable.

I tried to hit all the spammed gak. Also "go up" could mean very little. Or, like for FW IKs, could mean a LOT.

"Spammed gak"

"FW IKs"

Alright bud.

I have to agree.

It's also telling that bloof angles captain smash is spammed but missing. As are dawneagle dbags
But FW units that arn't exactlly common in top lists get hit.

Forgot BA jump capt I guess.

OH, and Bobby G. Again.

It would be nice to use some other BA character again.

The damage being done wasn't really the bad part. It was being literally forced to hurt myself against a target that was invulnerable.

The smite thing would have been one thing (although the second and third smite would have been his 4th and 5th of the turn leading to at least some negatives) and getting charged would have been another. But needing 7s to hit is just crazy. Especially to a space marine player who's best psychic power removes an enemies invuln only w/in 6 inches or might of heroes which only buffs one MODEL.

To watch a 300+ point unit kill itself with no recourse because I couldn't properly space my models 1.0001"s apart since I was on actual terrain instead of a piece of cardboard and didn't want to spend 10 minutes per unit measuring quarter of an inch variants seems silly.

The math I was shown was 9.3 mortals wounds with the smites (no increased negs for multiple smites or ability of a culexus to eat them) and solitares attacks vs the 20 mortals that I ended up taking (terrible rolling, probably should have been closer to 16 but whatever).

With all that being said, I think we can agree that nothing in the game should be at -4 to hit, ever.

Martel732 wrote:
Need to go up:



Demon princes.
Slannesh havocs.
Ahriman.
Vortex beasts.
Chaos leviathan dread
Alpha legion berserkers.

All babycarriers.

Battle sisters.
Canoness.
FW Sister transport.

Not sure they'll ever do legion or Mark specific points increase. They'll likely nerf the bajesus out of the strategem for AL and the shoot twice one.

Martel732 wrote:
Forgot BA jump capt I guess.

It's okay. I don't blame you that your entirely random, haphazard, and unjustified collection of units that you apparently picked by belomancy or something has no actual correlation with reality any better than chance would.

 chimeara wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Need to go up:



Demon princes.
Slannesh havocs.
Ahriman.
Vortex beasts.
Chaos leviathan dread
Alpha legion berserkers.

All babycarriers.

Battle sisters.
Canoness.
FW Sister transport.

Not sure they'll ever do legion or Mark specific points increase. They'll likely nerf the bajesus out of the strategem for AL and the shoot twice one.

They should, but I get you.

I'd hesitate on the BA capt because abuse of CP is what makes him work.

Without the infinite CP guard battery he loses a lot of what makes him good after one round (I think it's like 7-8 cp to make him good, 1 death visions, 2 3d6 charge, 1 extra relic, 1 d3 extra attacks, 2/3 fight again) so halfish of a "regular" armies cp.

It's the CP abuse that makes this possible more than once. But it maybe that I ran two of them and failed to get into CC for the first two games (failing 3d6 re-rollable charges of 9" twice in one game and once in the other...)

I don't think they're that good, but the spamming demands attention.

 chimeara wrote:


I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

Scorpius is a master of all trades type unit. The ability to double tap (for 6d3 shots), with a good profile (s6 Ap-2 2d) all while not requiring line of sight makes it a very difficult unit to counter play- especially if the user isn't brain dead and uses a screen. Even if the enemy manages to close, the Scorpius can still fight and possibly heal itself with a respectable melee attack. Its currently just a bit too cheap for the damage it can cause reliably and outside of line of sight.

the Leviathan is likewise just a bit too bulky and its wargear is a bit too good. The Grav Flux is an insane weapon, and even the Butcher Cannons are very strong. I will agree that the Leviathan is very pricey currently, but either it, or its war gear need to be hiked a little bit to more accurately represent what it is capable of. I think the space marine leviathan is in for the same treatment. The truth is, if you have a Leviathan, and you have the points, you will almost always field it instead of two or even three smaller dreads. Because the leviathan is both more durable (thanks to the invulnerable save), and has access to far superior weapons. Its probably the most overcentralized forgeworld unit currently. Leviathan (alongside Fire Raptor) is right now the poster boy for the Forgeworld still OP crowds, and it is so for a reason.

That said, lots of stuff in Forgeworld could use a serious point decrease. Titans and other super heavies are horrible after Chapter Approved 2017. a 2000 point Warhound Titan is a joke. 666 points for Zarakynel is about 100 points overpriced. Hellwright on Dark Abeyant should cost roughly 130 points (as opposed to 170 or so). Forgeworld in general needs a lot of work in price re balancing, mostly points decreases but I stand by Leviathan and Scorpius needing at least a small increase..

Upping leviathan is just a tax on the insanely good weapons.

bananathug wrote:
I'd hesitate on the BA capt because abuse of CP is what makes him work.

Without the infinite CP guard battery he loses a lot of what makes him good after one round (I think it's like 7-8 cp to make him good, 1 death visions, 2 3d6 charge, 1 extra relic, 1 d3 extra attacks, 2/3 fight again) so halfish of a "regular" armies cp.

It's the CP abuse that makes this possible more than once. But it maybe that I ran two of them and failed to get into CC for the first two games (failing 3d6 re-rollable charges of 9" twice in one game and once in the other...)

Statistics say you should make 9inchs charges almost everytime with a that level of assistance.
The CP abuse takes them to silly levels of good, but the other tactic I have seen is 3 of them and hunting in a pack 3 of them charging in with no overwatch, yeah really fun game that looked.

They always just die after one charge, but sure.

Captain smash is really good. Just remove the ignore overwatch. Ignore overwatch is the real problem - because it lets him charge things that would get him gibbed 30-40% of the time.

I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

By paying more, I'd probably never use the guy again, but I went 20 years and never used a captain before 8th. I'm used to it. If you took away ignore overwatch, I'd still never use him more than likely.

bananathug wrote:
The damage being done wasn't really the bad part. It was being literally forced to hurt myself against a target that was invulnerable.

To watch a 300+ point unit kill itself with no recourse because I couldn't properly space my models 1.0001"s apart since I was on actual terrain instead of a piece of cardboard and didn't want to spend 10 minutes per unit measuring quarter of an inch variants seems silly.

You not understanding the rules of the game or how to play around them does not mean that the rules are unfair or unbalanced. You got hit by a model that required significant support in the form of relics, command points, and psychic powers, which is a massive commitment of resources. Sure, it sucks, it doesn't feel good, but it happens. But I don't think that's reason to sit and complain about it, let alone advocate for changing the rules of the game around it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

Realistically - what would you charge more for? He is overcosted to begin with - the thing is - all the strats and relics/warlord traits combine for a perfect storm of destruction.

Overwatch is the one thing that could make you think twice about taking him - because for just about every other army - charging titans with 5 wound characters doesn't work out that well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

Realistically - what would you charge more for? He is overcosted to begin with - the thing is - all the strats and relics/warlord traits combine for a perfect storm of destruction.

Overwatch is the one thing that could make you think twice about taking him - because for just about every other army - charging titans with 5 wound characters doesn't work out that well.

Either change, and he's out anyway probably. It sucks throwing away a marine character or multiple marine characters because the actual assault units in the book can't do anything.

Charge more for "captain with jump pack". Leave the useless foot captain alone.

The part that I'm advocating a change for is the -4 to hit part, not the part where my guys killed themselves. In my huge list of nerfs I don't think solitare or suit of knives was on there...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Captain smash is really good. Just remove the ignore overwatch. Ignore overwatch is the real problem - because it lets him charge things that would get him gibbed 30-40% of the time.

Ignore Overwatch is the entire reason for the relic. You might as well have Alaitoc's trait become "Your army is yellow and blue" if you are going to remove relics from the game. Ignore Overwatch is why this relic exists. The charge reroll is what should go.

Guess the entirety of Slaanesh Daemons should get a 20-30% reduction in points, like they did with Wych Cult stuff. Chariots, Fiends and Seekers are a joke compared to other similiar units.

bananathug wrote:
The part that I'm advocating a change for is the -4 to hit part, not the part where my guys killed themselves. In my huge list of nerfs I don't think solitare or suit of knives was on there...

I can see a nerf to Lightning Reactions if they don't nerf - to hit in general and cap it off at -1. Lightning Reactions could be limited to just the attack that's targeting you, rather than last the entire phase.

Or, the stratagem itself could be hard-capped, like the Daemons' current +invuln save thing which can't get them to 2++. Maybe make it a maximum of -2 to hit or something so it can't be wombo-combo'd.

that -4 to hit is kind of a perfect storm though. You have to:

-Spend 2CP (a buff lasting for one phase)
-Cast a WC6 power from a psyker within 18" of your unit (this - to hit is a debuff affecting only the target unit)
-Cast a WC7 power from a psyker within 18" of the solitaire (this - to hit is a buff affecting only an Infantry unit)
-Bring in an allied craftworld detachment and succeed a WC7 18" range power (this - to hit is limited to only hit rolls in close combat made by the target unit)

Bare minimum, the combo requires the dedicated use of about 200 points of psykers, who must select all their powers essentially only for pulling off the combo (Fog of Dreams, Enhance/Drain and Veil of Tears are all considered pretty weak otherwise). Even if he succeeds at casting all the powers, and spends the strat (24.5% chance of success) then at maximum in your following shooting phase he's at -1 to hit vs any other unit that is not the one he targeted with the combo.

Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Basically everything in the Ork Index needs to be reduced in points, except maybe boyz. Boyz are fine

 Billagio wrote:
Basically everything in the Ork Index needs to be reduced in points, except maybe boyz. Boyz are fine

Pfft come on just look at the deffkopta. Tell me that thing is not OP.

HA! that gave me a good chuckle

Are you saying that the -4 to hit is okay because it is hard to get or are you just pointing out that it is a rather niche case? Even an imposed -3 (not taking into account -1 to hit in melee weapons or moving and firing heavy weapons) seems like it is too much.

Reading the rest of the post it seems like we are in agreement that imposed negatives to hit should cap at -2 and should be relatively hard to get (no more than a couple units per turn/phase)?

I'd say the army wide -1 to hits should be changed to a strat. Bonuses from strats do not stack (so only 1 bonus from a strat) no stacking bonuses from powers (although they would stack with strats) and cap max neg to hit at a -2 (before attacker imposed mods like moving or unwieldy weapons)?

So you could invest strats/powers to get units to -2 and could probably do several a turn but couldn't pump all of them into one unit making it impossible to hit? Would still make that stupid solitare a -3 (-2 from him and an imposed -1, not sure if I like it but it is what it is).

If we only allowed powers to work on/with units from the same faction/keyword it would help the stacking problem (no more eldar buffs on dark eldar/harlies) but this seems like a general step to resolve a specific problem (I'm not aware of other armies where this is a problem).

Any unit that has to suffer my dice luck should receive a stiff discount lol

Cinderspirit wrote:
Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Thinking about it, points decrease is probably the best way. I would love a durability buff, but with stratagems, relics, and daemon traits, it starts to get into OP territory real fast. Though T7 across the board is pretty bland.

For those in favour of a guardsmen price increase:
This will just lead to conscripts beeing picked again.
A better solution would be to just implement the platoon again,
Either make it min 2 or 3-5 guardsmen squads per troop choice Slot. Additionally add expendable to conscripts which disallows them to fill troop taxes.
That way you have doubled or trippled cost for cp bateries whilest pure IG still is playable.
Ofcourse the same would be needed for R&h aswell as other fw guardregiments.
Additional to hit modifiers are exponentially worse to deal with with low hit chance units.
Take the regular -1 bs.
An ork loses half his shots, whilest a space marine with bs 3+ only loses 25% of his shooting.

Models with 5+ armor should still cost 5 ppm.

Martel732 wrote:
Models with 5+ armor should still cost 5 ppm.

on what basis? Do explain that to me?
I'd like the full summary of why and how.
Additionally i'd like to point out that faction traits and relics are badly implemented respectively not costed according to their power.
IG guardsmen are not the problem, their trait and relic are.

Blood Angels Slamguinius needs some kind of price increase, as the Custodes Shield-Captains on jetbikes.

On DA: reduce Dark Talon's price to 180. 160 was too cheap, but 200 is too expensive (nears the Eldar aircraft, and those are better than it)

bananathug wrote:
Are you saying that the -4 to hit is okay because it is hard to get or are you just pointing out that it is a rather niche case? Even an imposed -3 (not taking into account -1 to hit in melee weapons or moving and firing heavy weapons) seems like it is too much.

Reading the rest of the post it seems like we are in agreement that imposed negatives to hit should cap at -2 and should be relatively hard to get (no more than a couple units per turn/phase)?

I'd say the army wide -1 to hits should be changed to a strat. Bonuses from strats do not stack (so only 1 bonus from a strat) no stacking bonuses from powers (although they would stack with strats) and cap max neg to hit at a -2 (before attacker imposed mods like moving or unwieldy weapons)?

So you could invest strats/powers to get units to -2 and could probably do several a turn but couldn't pump all of them into one unit making it impossible to hit? Would still make that stupid solitare a -3 (-2 from him and an imposed -1, not sure if I like it but it is what it is).

If we only allowed powers to work on/with units from the same faction/keyword it would help the stacking problem (no more eldar buffs on dark eldar/harlies) but this seems like a general step to resolve a specific problem (I'm not aware of other armies where this is a problem).

This is an incredibly niche case. Modifiers of -4 are so few and far between, that its really not a huge issue. Does it suck when you run into one? Yeah, but with a little planning you can beat them:
Alaitoc? Move within 12"
Lightning Fast Reactions? Shoot something else
Conceal? Only works on infantry/bikes and it can be denied
Rangers? Punch them
Shadow Specters? Okay, this one is pretty good, but at 33pts a model, they are a bit cost prohibitive.

Most of the time I read about people deriding negative hit modifiers, it usually involves the Aeldari player doing something incorrectly. Ask questions and demand to read the rules! Honestly, sometimes the Aeldari player can just make an innocent mistake themselves.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Thinking about it, points decrease is probably the best way. I would love a durability buff, but with stratagems, relics, and daemon traits, it starts to get into OP territory real fast. Though T7 across the board is pretty bland.

Well I would love too see a 4++ on all Greater Daemons and 3++ on Lords of Change, so it wouldn't be a must to take the Armor of Scorn or Impossible Robe on them. But even with a 4++ I wouldn't see them worth their points right now. A Hive Tyrant with wings kinda is a Lord of Change with 4 Wounds less and costs 100 point less (Twin linked Devourers + Scything Talons). 4 Wounds can never be worth 100 points, also the Hive Tyrant has Deep Strike built in, ranged weapons, a 3+ armor, is faster, has a better morale boost rule, annoys enemy psykers and draws it's powers from a better table.

 akaean wrote:

 chimeara wrote:


I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

Scorpius is a master of all trades type unit. The ability to double tap (for 6d3 shots), with a good profile (s6 Ap-2 2d) all while not requiring line of sight makes it a very difficult unit to counter play- especially if the user isn't brain dead and uses a screen. Even if the enemy manages to close, the Scorpius can still fight and possibly heal itself with a respectable melee attack. Its currently just a bit too cheap for the damage it can cause reliably and outside of line of sight.

the Leviathan is likewise just a bit too bulky and its wargear is a bit too good. The Grav Flux is an insane weapon, and even the Butcher Cannons are very strong. I will agree that the Leviathan is very pricey currently, but either it, or its war gear need to be hiked a little bit to more accurately represent what it is capable of. I think the space marine leviathan is in for the same treatment. The truth is, if you have a Leviathan, and you have the points, you will almost always field it instead of two or even three smaller dreads. Because the leviathan is both more durable (thanks to the invulnerable save), and has access to far superior weapons. Its probably the most overcentralized forgeworld unit currently. Leviathan (alongside Fire Raptor) is right now the poster boy for the Forgeworld still OP crowds, and it is so for a reason.

That said, lots of stuff in Forgeworld could use a serious point decrease. Titans and other super heavies are horrible after Chapter Approved 2017. a 2000 point Warhound Titan is a joke. 666 points for Zarakynel is about 100 points overpriced. Hellwright on Dark Abeyant should cost roughly 130 points (as opposed to 170 or so). Forgeworld in general needs a lot of work in price re balancing, mostly points decreases but I stand by Leviathan and Scorpius needing at least a small increase..

Solid argument! Well said. I will however agree to disagree. I think Scorpius is good don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's that good. 217 points is a bunch.

I will agree that the Leviathan might need a second look.

Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Precisely. He REQUIRES no less than 4 CP (Visions, Wings of Fire, Descent of Angels) to even do what he does. Sure, if you have ANOTHER Character running around with Veritas Vitae (one more CP down the drain), you might save on a couple CP, but the fact the Captain is one build that costs a ton to function already is a good enough reason to leave him alone.

You're discussing a fundamental problem with people trying to apply mathhammer to a system involving relics, stratagems, etc.

You can make a lot of units do some filthy stuff, and people will decry the unit - not the spell that was cast on them, the two heroes nearby putting out an aura, the command points spent on a stratagem etc. That stuff is never factored into the math, just the base points cost of the unit.

And I'm speaking as a narrative player - I understand there are some really powerful, potent combinations in the game, but many of them are tying up 500-600 points of models on the table just to do X, Y or Z. That definitely needs consideration when condemning the receiving unit.

Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

I belive the main problem is within the faction traits.
They don't cost points but they can have massive impacts on the balance:
Alpha Legionares, compared to other CSM get through their trait an additional 1/6th durability atleast. (Depending on their opponents BS they get more durability.)
Alaitoc Guardians get the same etc.
Yet they cost the same as other Counterparts, even if they got a rule that is massively superior to other faction traits.
Additionally certain Warlord Traits are massive compared to others but still don't affect the pricetag, leading to a disparity between price and effectiveness of the unit on the field.
Worse are Stratagems,they range from:
Mehh,
Bad,
Extra equipment options that got cut

to
Doubleshooting on slaaneshmodels, inherently strenghtening mark of slaanesh at no additional price
additional Movement
Infiltration
etc.

Again those Stratagems are not costed accordingly and aslong as certain armies get acess to CP's on the cheap or the infamous CP farm of IG doesn't get nerfed they will inherently unbalance any attempt at balance before we even beginn to change pts, simlpy because they lost their pricetag.

And if said CP' Farm get's nerfed via regular price increase for Guardsmen that will only lead to the problem that mono IG get's punished for the problem soup causes.
Granted CP should not be farmable, but that is another debate, because literally half the Stratagems could be additional equipment. (AA rockets for rocketlaunchers for exemple, Grenadiers as an upgrade for IG Veterans, etc.)

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

You’re overlooking the possibility that he’s run because he is well costed and the other options need to get boosted, or that some units could be comparatively balanced but not channel CP as well as he can.

Seems like pretty much every army has at least a few units that need serious work, due to poor internal balance.

As for Necrons, well.... we need a moderate price drop across the board really. The amount we can currently put on the board compared to other armies is disheartening

For me the main ones to look at are:

- Monolith and Obelisk, both need significant point drops or buffs
- Flyers, again both need large point drops but even that won't save them, they're truly awful
- Flayed Ones need a 2-3 point reduction
- Wraiths need a 5-10 point reduction
- Spyders need a 10 point reduction at LEAST. I haven't seen a single person use one in 8th
- Every FW model needs a 10% point reduction

Martel732 wrote:

Need to go up:

Necron destroyers.
Doomsday arks.
Destroyer lords.
C'tan Shards.

Difficult to take this seriously. Especially Destroyer Lords... As for the others, they are literally our only decent units, which will be why you see them a lot. It doesn't mean they are undercosted. 50 points for a Destroyer is more than enough

Ice_can wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

And if everything was OP nothing would be.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Sure? Most of the units people complain about are tournament staples. Of which I would guess, the people complaining don't attend. Also we are talking about 20+ units spread over 8 codexs? Seems like a pretty diverse field. So yea, let's nerf all that and inevitably miss something, so we have one army crushing things. That makes much more sense than buffing some underperforming units and making the field even more diverse in tournaments.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

This is so true. Played against Necrons a lot lately with my Death Guard and the level of killyness is about perfect. After 6 turns, both of us had about 50% of our units left. The game should not end with one of the players tabled in most cases.

Literally 3/4ths of all the units in the game need a boost. Since you're stuck with only 3 of each unit now it's absolutely necessary that GW go completely against type and give each faction MULTIPLE units that aren't trash.

Points tweeks....

* Reduce Greater Demon points across the board (they all cost too much)
* Slight reduction in all Marine Chassis troops (Plague Marines, Rubrics, Tacs, etc.) to make them more viable
* Slight points increase in Guardsmen, cultists, ya know... all the horde units that people mando-pick because everything else is too costly for what it does.
* Slight points decrease in Gnarlmaw; I think a 35 point hike was a bit much
* Maulerfields and Forgefiend price decreases, same with Soul Grinder (all are extremely expensive for what they do)
* Tweeks to Ynarri... their tricks are still pretty OP comparitively, but I don't see this happening until Ynarri dex
* Points increase in Captains, or at least some captain options. Smash captains are really, REALLY powerful for how cheap they are. Either tweek captain points across the board, or tweek the cost of some options (even 5-10 points means a bit)
* Warp Bolter added as an option to all demon princes for 3 points (as opposed to 9 points, and its only usable by certain codexes)
* Necron options getting a pretty universal points cut, except vaults need to be increased or limited to being 1 per army. Vault spam, while expensive costwise, is extremely powerful.
* Speaking of which... I think Lords of War should be limited to 1 per army unless utilizing certain codexes (IK, Renegade Knights). I love Magnus and Mortarian, but it shouldn't be a "thing" to have multiple primarchs in the same army.

Just a few ideas

 spacewolved wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Sure? Most of the units people complain about are tournament staples. Of which I would guess, the people complaining don't attend. Also we are talking about 20+ units spread over 8 codexs? Seems like a pretty diverse field. So yea, let's nerf all that and inevitably miss something, so we have one army crushing things. That makes much more sense than buffing some underperforming units and making the field even more diverse in tournaments.

I agree with your overall point but I do have to say that that's not at all a diverse field relative the actual number of units/books in the game. There are 20ish codexes out now and about a half dozen index factions with what...500, 600 total units in the game? 40% of codexes is at least mediocre but 3-4% of units is super weak(and the exact same level of diversity we saw pre rule of 3 as well, that rule proves itself more useless every event that comes out.)

Deathwing get there own detachment of 6 elite and 5 cp, same with ravenwing, so basically they are the same as standard detachments, this will allow pure ravenwing and Deathwing armies to have a decent amount of Cp.

Price drop on all terminators.

Price drop on most ravenwing units bar the flyers.

Removal or change of most of the leadership rules dark angels have, the redundancy is overwhelming.

Price increase on the dark shroud specifically.

Large price drop on all FW Marine super heavies

Chapter tactics affect all units in the army except flyers.

Drop All Land raiders back down to 250pts OR give them the same super heavy rule that allows them to pull out of combat and fire.

Controversial part here.

All space marine vehicles and infantry ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, this reinforces the fast hard hitting nature of marines, without giving them the pure speed of eldar.

Rework ATSKNF, in its current state it’s pointless, not sure how to fix it.

Lower non primaris marines to 10pts OR buff them to be worth the current cost/damage/survival ratio

 Formosa wrote:
Deathwing get there own detachment of 6 elite and 5 cp, same with ravenwing, so basically they are the same as standard detachments, this will allow pure ravenwing and Deathwing armies to have a decent amount of Cp.

Price drop on all terminators.

Price drop on most ravenwing units bar the flyers.

Removal or change of most of the leadership rules dark angels have, the redundancy is overwhelming.

Price increase on the dark shroud specifically.

Large price drop on all FW Marine super heavies

Chapter tactics affect all units in the army except flyers.

Drop All Land raiders back down to 250pts OR give them the same super heavy rule that allows them to pull out of combat and fire.

Controversial part here.

All space marine vehicles and infantry ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, this reinforces the fast hard hitting nature of marines, without giving them the pure speed of eldar.

Rework ATSKNF, in its current state it’s pointless, not sure how to fix it.

Lower non primaris marines to 10pts OR buff them to be worth the current cost/damage/survival ratio

I agree with most of this, definitely not the -1 to hit though (especially for vehicles); I play Chaos Space Marines, and I think removing that would be... really bad for balance.

Yeah that’s why I said its controversial, thing is it doesn’t make too much difference, all of our heavy weapons can reach out and touch people turn 1 anyway, the only time it comes into play is when the enemy gets close, I want it to encourage actual movement, there is zero point to moving preds, dreads, Land speeders etc. Right now... especially Land speeders.

All units need to double in points.

(Ducks)

Then some need to be reduced. Currently, the pressure to reduce points as a balancing mechanism leads to packed tables & less tactical play.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

And if everything was OP nothing would be.

Yeah but it would also make the game very boring if whoever got first turn automatically won.

Really units shouldn't be expecting to get 40% of their points back in a turn, but I fear that ship has sailed.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

But then you also raise cost of captains without those.


Thanks gw for going non-scalable arsed system of relics and strategems


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moriarty wrote:
All units need to double in points.

(Ducks)

Then some need to be reduced. Currently, the pressure to reduce points as a balancing mechanism leads to packed tables & less tactical play.

Would also give more room to tweak points.

But gw would also triple point level

While I wouldn't mind making the good stuff more expensive as a method of balancing I do think that approach would take much longer until we achieve a good balance between most stuff. The really bad stuff would sit around being bad forever, as it would still be out classed by everything else. In other words: The number of known bad models is much greater than the number of OP models. The ideal way would be going both directions, so we achieve balance somewhere in the middle. I do hope we see points adjustments to atleast 50% of all units next CA, but I guess that will not happen. My previous mentions are just units I know to be overpriced by my experience.

Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

tneva82 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

But then you also raise cost of captains without those.


Thanks gw for going non-scalable arsed system of relics and strategems

How about they make it so relics ALWAYS cost Command Points, but you start with more for being Battleforged. Relics would have a CP cost attached to them from 1-4 CP. That way, there is some form of an opportunity cost for them. Want a super-powerful relic, well it runs you 4 CP.

I really wish Relics had a cost. I'd prefer points, but CP could do it too. How can you make the Shard of Anaris be what it should be, and have it cost as much as a pistol that... fires twice?

I want both the Fireblade and Shard of Anaris to be in the game. Fireblade should be a little better than a Power Sword. Shard of Anaris should be some instant-death ubersword that everyone should fear. There's no way to make both be viable at the same cost without ruining one of them.

Bharring wrote:
I really wish Relics had a cost. I'd prefer points, but CP could do it too. How can you make the Shard of Anaris be what it should be, and have it cost as much as a pistol that... fires twice?

I want both the Fireblade and Shard of Anaris to be in the game. Fireblade should be a little better than a Power Sword. Shard of Anaris should be some instant-death ubersword that everyone should fear. There's no way to make both be viable at the same cost without ruining one of them.

I can sort of get behind this thinking.

There should be some "cost/reward" type thinking of picking relics. Honestly, there are so many sub-par choices (even if you want to play "fluffy"), especially in the older codices, that certain ones are shoe horned in. I would also like to see additional relics introduced in CA for older codices, or reworking of crappy ones to make them usable.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

It's likely that I play an assault army, so proper tactics are needed otherwise they tear me up. All the DG players out here always run 3 and they always use them as front line screens knowing I have to go to them to do any damage. Other than the ridiculous flamer, I think they have a total package that makes them super hard to deal with. 12 wounds, 3+/5+++, T8 is a hard nut to crack in melee when they spit 2D6 S7 flamers. It's a lot to deal with for something that costs cheaper than a Predator.

Then again, it might just be salt flowing.

I think in terms of upping costs things aren't necessarily bad, just being exploited. So a lot of people who don't like Guard generating CPs in soup armies want their basic stuff to be more expensive. A bloke with a lasgun isn't that good however.

i think the way round that is to make more of the optional upgrades costed into squads. So for a guard infantry squad the cost of a vox should be included. So now a squad costs 48 points, but the vox upgrade is just 1 point. And so on.

Other areas for unattractive units isn't always a straight point basis. Take Chimera's - they cost more than the infantry they transport and in practice the infantry support the IFV not the other way round. In an ideal world it would be worth less than the squad. Something like some sort of combination of perhaps BS5+, toughness 6 and/or save 4+ to make it the light skinned fighting vehicle such things our in our world that could be costed at a lot less.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think in terms of upping costs things aren't necessarily bad, just being exploited. So a lot of people who don't like Guard generating CPs in soup armies want their basic stuff to be more expensive. A bloke with a lasgun isn't that good however.

i think the way round that is to make more of the optional upgrades costed into squads. So for a guard infantry squad the cost of a vox should be included. So now a squad costs 48 points, but the vox upgrade is just 1 point. And so on.

Other areas for unattractive units isn't always a straight point basis. Take Chimera's - they cost more than the infantry they transport and in practice the infantry support the IFV not the other way round. In an ideal world it would be worth less than the squad. Something like some sort of combination of perhaps BS5+, toughness 6 and/or save 4+ to make it the light skinned fighting vehicle such things our in our world that could be costed at a lot less.

A bloke with a lasgun is not that killy. That does not mean he's not that good.

 Zid wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

Demon princes can function without relic and cp support. And are psykers. They are way better than a ba capt.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

Demon princes can function without relic and cp support. And are psykers. They are way better than a ba capt.

I can see that point. But is 180 too little, or just right? I run 3 every game and none of my opponents have struggled to kill them all (Unless I completely thwomp stuff first)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

It's likely that I play an assault army, so proper tactics are needed otherwise they tear me up. All the DG players out here always run 3 and they always use them as front line screens knowing I have to go to them to do any damage. Other than the ridiculous flamer, I think they have a total package that makes them super hard to deal with. 12 wounds, 3+/5+++, T8 is a hard nut to crack in melee when they spit 2D6 S7 flamers. It's a lot to deal with for something that costs cheaper than a Predator.

Then again, it might just be salt flowing.

Yes, PBC's definitely are strong against assault oriented armies because they pack flamers. But thats more or less a rock to your scissors. Against a balanced archetype (or gunline) PBC's struggle much more to do anything more than block line of right, or maybe kill some frontline dudes or plink some wounds off something.

I think 180 is close honestly. Princes are strong, but not ravager squadron strong.

Martel732 wrote:
I think 180 is close honestly. Princes are strong, but not ravager squadron strong.

I agree. I do think the whole "data sheet" debacle needs sorted though, even if you never see it, its kind of cheesy that someone could run 9 demon princes if they wanted

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

I cannot speak from experience since i have no DG in my area, but usually when something is 3x in every list, you have a problem.

Princes are largely about right - Thousand Sons princes could do with being bumped up though, as they're straight up better than all the others.
What makes the DG ones good are Relics and Traits - 2+/5++/4+++ Is pretty great, and Arch Contaminator is a great force multiplier. But that's one or two - not all of them.
Plagueburst Crawlers are almost fine - but they aren't being used as intended. They could do with a points bump and BS3+ - but increase the Plaguespitters cost too, so that build wastes the better BS and really pays for the counter-assault capability. Let them actually kill tanks with Entropy Cannons instead of failing to hit the broad side of a barn. Make them a pricey, durable Predator alternative instead of a Bloat Drone that's cheaper and significantly more durable.

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Princes are largely about right - Thousand Sons princes could do with being bumped up though, as they're straight up better than all the others.
What makes the DG ones good are Relics and Traits - 2+/5++/4+++ Is pretty great, and Arch Contaminator is a great force multiplier. But that's one or two - not all of them.
Plagueburst Crawlers are almost fine - but they aren't being used as intended. They could do with a points bump and BS3+ - but increase the Plaguespitters cost too, so that build wastes the better BS and really pays for the counter-assault capability. Let them actually kill tanks with Entropy Cannons instead of failing to hit the broad side of a barn. Make them a pricey, durable Predator alternative instead of a Bloat Drone that's cheaper and significantly more durable.

Crappy part is BS5+ is kind of a "thing" with Demon tanks... If they would bump the BS I think you would see a huge shift toward mortar batteries.

Its BS 4+. I kinda like using it with Entropy Canons, it still does its job that way. The spitter variant could need a little nerf maybe. I dont see them putting BF 3+ on a Daemon Engine, but they could make Entropy Canons d3 shots or something like that and increase the base cost of the model.

All Daemon Engines should be WS/BS 3+ IMO. You can only play one of the CSM ones in a list effectively because you need the reroll everything stratagem to make them work.

I would like more attacks/shots on Daemon Engines much more than better BS/WS. They are raging metal beasts at the end of the day, which just go on a wild rampage on the battlefield. Big amount of unprecise dakka and flailing fits them better.

Cinderspirit wrote:
I would like more attacks/shots on Daemon Engines much more than better BS/WS. They are raging metal beasts at the end of the day, which just go on a wild rampage on the battlefield. Big amount of unprecise dakka and flailing fits them better.

That highly depends on the deamon within and the type of deamon engine.
Decimators are far more methodic in their approach then a defiler. A hellturkey behaves more like a eagle or owl then a forgefiend.