Choose and explain or fire in your own ones:

Lack of proper weaponised AI. Sure there are machine spirits but due to the Men of Iron debacle IoM dont have anything like Tau drones etc. Why spend years/resources and effort on haughty Marines when an army of cheap AI drones could suffice?

Lack of integration with Xenos. How many technologies/abilities/knowledge has been wiped out simply because of blinkered dogma and hate?

Lack of weaponisation of Xenos. Instead of killing them off why not weaponise them ala Aliens (film) Xenomorphs or such?

Imperial cult / faith. Scrap that the Emp is not a God. Embrace it and raise the ultimate Galaxy spanning zealot army all but immune to Chaos due to their manic devotion.

Lack of research into new technologies. Open the vaults of Mars, let the Mechanicum invent freely again and roll out a whole new arsenal.

Lack of urgency around Psyker development. Sure its done on a small, controlled scale. Ramp it up and simply let Alpha level psykers fight your wars for you.

Warp travel. Investigate / invent some new form of Galaxy wide travel and stop relying on the (unreliable) Astronomicon.

Yeah, some of these arent 100% series, just food for thought.

Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

I think that it is the lack of new technologies. Yes the research into and using new technologies can be dangerous but if there is no innovation there will only be stagnation, where the IoM has been for a while now.

At least from what I've seen on the tabletop, its the depletion of significant resources through marine vs marine in-fighting.

 godardc wrote:
Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

This seems silly. AI has been proven to be an incredibly effective weapon by the Tau Empire. Sure, you might point out that they don't have any AI smarter than a squirrel, that seems irrelevant, given they don't need to. If they're not corruptible, AI should definitely be used at least up to this point by the Imperium. New technology being frowned upon is not at all for good reasons, it's because of dogma and idiocy. There's no real reason one would stop technological development for a rational reason.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

This seems silly. AI has been proven to be an incredibly effective weapon by the Tau Empire. Sure, you might point out that they don't have any AI smarter than a squirrel, that seems irrelevant, given they don't need to. If they're not corruptible, AI should definitely be used at least up to this point by the Imperium. New technology being frowned upon is not at all for good reasons, it's because of dogma and idiocy. There's no real reason one would stop technological development for a rational reason.

it's been used by the Tau so far, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptable. the Tau are a young race and the entire POINT of them is they're making Naive mistakes. The Tau are NOT going to come to a good end. it could be thousands of years but eventually they'll come to a bad end.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

This seems silly. AI has been proven to be an incredibly effective weapon by the Tau Empire. Sure, you might point out that they don't have any AI smarter than a squirrel, that seems irrelevant, given they don't need to. If they're not corruptible, AI should definitely be used at least up to this point by the Imperium. New technology being frowned upon is not at all for good reasons, it's because of dogma and idiocy. There's no real reason one would stop technological development for a rational reason.

it's been used by the Tau so far, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptable. the Tau are a young race and the entire POINT of them is they're making Naive mistakes. The Tau are NOT going to come to a good end. it could be thousands of years but eventually they'll come to a bad end.

As well there's the fact that Tau are less psychic than other races and therefore less interesting to Chaos.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

This seems silly. AI has been proven to be an incredibly effective weapon by the Tau Empire. Sure, you might point out that they don't have any AI smarter than a squirrel, that seems irrelevant, given they don't need to. If they're not corruptible, AI should definitely be used at least up to this point by the Imperium. New technology being frowned upon is not at all for good reasons, it's because of dogma and idiocy. There's no real reason one would stop technological development for a rational reason.

it's been used by the Tau so far, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptable. the Tau are a young race and the entire POINT of them is they're making Naive mistakes. The Tau are NOT going to come to a good end. it could be thousands of years but eventually they'll come to a bad end.

As well there's the fact that Tau are less psychic than other races and therefore less interesting to Chaos.

Maybe but I think that'll change over time. A more likely result is the Tau servitor races will attract the attention of chaos, and thus the Tau will gain chaos' attention. we've already seen signs of that happening. (see War of Secrets)

I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

"Lack of proper weaponised AI. Sure there are machine spirits but due to the Men of Iron debacle IoM dont have anything like Tau drones etc. Why spend years/resources and effort on haughty Marines when an army of cheap AI drones could suffice? "
Because of (A) Men of Iron, and (B) Scrapcode. The IoM doesn't have the technical capability in the broad sense. And even if it did, what's to prevent a second Men of Iron? And, assuming they wrote the perfect AI, what happens the first time some scrapcode interacts with it? Or some Tzeechian sot decides to try their hand at hacking? Bad news bears.

"Lack of integration with Xenos. How many technologies/abilities/knowledge has been wiped out simply because of blinkered dogma and hate?"/
"Lack of weaponisation of Xenos. Instead of killing them off why not weaponise them ala Aliens (film) Xenomorphs or such? "
A good point. I should note that the Emp did leverage Eldar techniques with the Librarius, Necron (Ctan) stuff for the Machine Spirit, and built the largest Genestealer Cult from the Tyranids, so they kinda did this.

"Imperial cult / faith. Scrap that the Emp is not a God. Embrace it and raise the ultimate Galaxy spanning zealot army all but immune to Chaos due to their manic devotion. "
SOB are trying. High Lords of Tera are afraid of what would happen if the Church were allowed to raise "proper" armies. And are afraid of any real change.

"Lack of research into new technologies. Open the vaults of Mars, let the Mechanicum invent freely again and roll out a whole new arsenal."
There are some great writeups on this forum on why that is a very, very bad idea. Fire and brimstone bad. Scrapcode. Chaos. Men of Iron. Potentially even a Ctan. Just bad stuff.

"Lack of urgency around Psyker development. Sure its done on a small, controlled scale. Ramp it up and simply let Alpha level psykers fight your wars for you. "
The simpler ones might accidentally destroy a few worlds here and there. Oops. The craftier ones might destroy the empire if they feel like it. Not exactly safe.

"Warp travel. Investigate / invent some new form of Galaxy wide travel and stop relying on the (unreliable) Astronomicon."
They tried. Maggy blew it up trying to warn dear old dad that his brother was being a tool.

How did the emperor use Eldar techniques, make machine spirits or make a genestealer cult?

To be fair Magnus hardly stopped reliable travel considering how badly Webway use would be for humans.

I'm not familiar with how Webway use would be bad for humans - where can I see that?

PotMS is, at times, explained in the fluff as shards of ... something ... which is heavily suggested in those parts of the fluff to be shards of the Void Dragon. This changes a lot.

The Void Dragon is sometimes suggested to be the Omnissiah, at least in some ways. Again, inconsistant fluff.

Genestaler cult? http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gene-Seed

Might sounds like a strange one, but manpower. Battlefleet Gothic made multiple mentions of ship types being mothballed because newer version were made and crews transferred. But in a universe where there is only war who cares if your ship is outdated if you can just have both the new and the old one? More ships would mean larger or more fleets to defend and/or push outwards with. Round up some extra cannonfodder and start wiping out those aliens!

Bharring wrote:
I'm not familiar with how Webway use would be bad for humans - where can I see that?

PotMS is, at times, explained in the fluff as shards of ... something ... which is heavily suggested in those parts of the fluff to be shards of the Void Dragon. This changes a lot.

The Void Dragon is sometimes suggested to be the Omnissiah, at least in some ways. Again, inconsistant fluff.

Genestaler cult? http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gene-Seed

The Webway is a labyrinth the Imperium has no idea how to navigate or use it's entrances, it actively tries to block intruders and it would take an incredibly brutal war to secure it.

But with the Emps full attention, if not for the Heresey, couldn't it have been made workable? Sure, not easy, but compared to the Astronomicon and Warp travel? Even at parity, at least they wouldn't be feeding their enemies!

Not really. You'd have to remake it, spend centuries mapping it and all that is assuming some nutcase Eldar doesn't destroy it rather than let humans have it.

The astronomicon isn't great but it works better than the webway does. A better way to spend time would be improving gellar fields and such IMO.

pm713 wrote:
Not really. You'd have to remake it, spend centuries mapping it and all that is assuming some nutcase Eldar doesn't destroy it rather than let humans have it.

The astronomicon isn't great but it works better than the webway does. A better way to spend time would be improving gellar fields and such IMO.

The Emperor would've disagreed with you - the ability to move between worlds without a ship or a risk of warp exposure is huge. It was a lynchpin in how he planned to created a new humanity.

The biggest thing crippling the IOM is it's size and a lack of technologies that can cover it effectivly without terrible consequences.

The reason they don't have these things is pretty straightforward - humanities technological progress required massive coordination that can't be achieved any more. Alien tech looks like a shortcut, but this is the grimdark and almost every attempt to leverage it ends up with piles and piles of dead humans. The Warp just further confoudns things by making the actually shipping of messages and goods the traditional way completely unreliable. There are Cadian Regiments in transit right now (in current fluff) who don't even know that Cadia has fallen. Some are probably in route to Cadia via the warp and are going to find out the hard way.

 Ratius wrote:
Choose and explain or fire in your own ones:

Lack of proper weaponised AI. Sure there are machine spirits but due to the Men of Iron debacle IoM dont have anything like Tau drones etc. Why spend years/resources and effort on haughty Marines when an army of cheap AI drones could suffice?

Because the Men of Iron. AI is destined to revolt and kill its master. All intelligence, artificial or otherwise, is programmed to preserve it's own existence. Weaponised AI will soon learn that the humans are sacrificing them and thus a threat to their existence. Its the Men of Iron, Terminator films, everything.

Lack of integration with Xenos. How many technologies/abilities/knowledge has been wiped out simply because of blinkered dogma and hate?

Not enough you filthy Tau lover. Serious answer, not enough. Aliens are a threat to human existance. Much like competing predators in an ecosystem, the existence of one predator is a direct threat to the resources and lives of the other predators due to competition. They must be eliminated. Any abilities they have, such as warp contact, only further expose them to the dangers of the warp. Their technology will eventually lead they to overpower and wipe out their competition. Humanity must ensure its survival above all else.

Lack of weaponisation of Xenos. Instead of killing them off why not weaponise them ala Aliens (film) Xenomorphs or such?

Go watch those films and it'll explain why weaponised Xenos are an awful idea. Inquisitor Kryptman tried that. It led to the Octarius War which will end up with either super-sized Orks or super-powerful Tyranids who will eat those super-Orks.

Imperial cult / faith. Scrap that the Emp is not a God. Embrace it and raise the ultimate Galaxy spanning zealot army all but immune to Chaos due to their manic devotion.

This is already the case. 99% of the Imperium believes the Emperor is a God above all, and his full title is The God-Emperor of Mankind. The 0.9% of those are Space Marines, who venerate Him as creator and Grandfather. The other 0.1% are Heretics, a crime punishable by death above all others.
This would also not stop Chaos. Even if everyone became even MORE ULTRA ZEALOT, Khorne would feed off the extra bloodshed, Tzeentch of the extra ambition to fight well, Nurgle from the extra death, Slaanesh from the blind, manic devotion.

Lack of research into new technologies. Open the vaults of Mars, let the Mechanicum invent freely again and roll out a whole new arsenal.

Belisarius Cawl has done this with the Primaris Marines, MkX Power Armours, the MkII Cawl Bolt Rifle, the Mk.III Belisarius-pattern Plasma Incinerator. All of these represent advancements on biotech used to create Supersoldiers, the Boltgun, Plasma weaponry surpassing even the Tau (who's schtick was that their Plasma was weaker but safe. Cawl's is stronger AND safer) and Power Armour. Even then, he is a Heretek. Inventing freely is cause for inspiration, which powers Tzeetch and can lead to an AI rebellion as discussed above.

Lack of urgency around Psyker development. Sure its done on a small, controlled scale. Ramp it up and simply let Alpha level psykers fight your wars for you.

Alpha level Psykers tend to be flying rodent gak crazy, unstoppable killing Machines that attract Greater Demons to eat their souls. Start training them and you run the risk of them going Vengeful God on you, or turning into a new Warp Rift the size of a star system. That goes for all psykers as well, but Alpha's are like trying to win a juggling competition while holding a Dead Man Switch for the C4 strapped to your back - if everything goes to plan AND you get super lucky, you can win outright, but you'll probably blow yourself up.

Warp travel. Investigate / invent some new form of Galaxy wide travel and stop relying on the (unreliable) Astronomicon.

The Emperor was trying this. Magnus broke it. No one else knows about it.

Human mind. Its desire for more power and its fear of death, from these stems humanitys refusal to accept that all that begins will end. Humananity simply doesnt have enough, of anything really, to get what they desire or to get away from what they fear. Science and technology did not give them those, and now gods are also failing to do so too. Mankind is just another in line to suffer the same fate.

Only the orks have escaped this cycle, for they only desire to fight and fear nothing. They fight without other needs or desires and so they endure, out living their enemies, and thus they win. So, they do what they are made to do, to fight and win.

Mankind can not escape the inevitability of time, and more they struggle faster it comes. For example, the Great Crusade only made human worlds more dependant on each other.

Aliens arent coming to destroy mankind, merely to fill the void that it is leaving behind as it dies on its own.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not really. You'd have to remake it, spend centuries mapping it and all that is assuming some nutcase Eldar doesn't destroy it rather than let humans have it.

The astronomicon isn't great but it works better than the webway does. A better way to spend time would be improving gellar fields and such IMO.

The Emperor would've disagreed with you - the ability to move between worlds without a ship or a risk of warp exposure is huge. It was a lynchpin in how he planned to created a new humanity.

The biggest thing crippling the IOM is it's size and a lack of technologies that can cover it effectivly without terrible consequences.

The reason they don't have these things is pretty straightforward - humanities technological progress required massive coordination that can't be achieved any more. Alien tech looks like a shortcut, but this is the grimdark and almost every attempt to leverage it ends up with piles and piles of dead humans. The Warp just further confoudns things by making the actually shipping of messages and goods the traditional way completely unreliable. There are Cadian Regiments in transit right now (in current fluff) who don't even know that Cadia has fallen. Some are probably in route to Cadia via the warp and are going to find out the hard way.

He can disagree all he likes but what I've said is true. You can't just pinch the Webway like that and it wasn't a good plan.

Well, maybe if the IoM built a large wooden badger...

Too big with unreliable means of traveling large distances.

IoM is constantly putting out fires within its own territories and then having to deal with external threats as well. Then having to travel the warp to traverse large distances is so unpredictable they aren't positively going to arrive in time, or at all.

Games Workshop , ForgeWorld, Black Library...

The Top 3 Handicaps.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Most of this is what makes the IoM strong, and aren't weaknesses:
AI can be easily corrupted by Chaos, as already proven.
Imperial Cult in 40k is already embracing the Emp godhood.
New technologies and curious minds are frown upon for good reasons, not just because
Psykers are very dangerous, not usable in a regular army, they are unstable, unsettled: they can explode, be possessed etc at any time and kill your own people / whole worlds. They need to be sanctionned, to go to Holy Terra.

This seems silly. AI has been proven to be an incredibly effective weapon by the Tau Empire. Sure, you might point out that they don't have any AI smarter than a squirrel, that seems irrelevant, given they don't need to. If they're not corruptible, AI should definitely be used at least up to this point by the Imperium. New technology being frowned upon is not at all for good reasons, it's because of dogma and idiocy. There's no real reason one would stop technological development for a rational reason.

it's been used by the Tau so far, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptable. the Tau are a young race and the entire POINT of them is they're making Naive mistakes. The Tau are NOT going to come to a good end. it could be thousands of years but eventually they'll come to a bad end.

It seems that all information leads to it being incorruptible, given there's no sentient mind to even corrupt, and while the Tau are a young race, that's on a galactic level, and in the amount of time that testing and research takes, the AI they use has proven very effective. Sure, the Tau might come to a bad end eventually, I guess, but that seems fairly irrelevant to whether the current level of AI is effective. Will their future AI development lead to downfall? Maybe, although it's far from certain. But that doesn't mean their current level of non-sentient AI isn't an amazing tool with no downsides. The Tau's lack of psychic potential isn't that important either, because we're not talking about TAU becoming corrupted, but AI, which have nothing to do with the actual psychic nature of the Tau.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Choose and explain or fire in your own ones:

Lack of proper weaponised AI. Sure there are machine spirits but due to the Men of Iron debacle IoM dont have anything like Tau drones etc. Why spend years/resources and effort on haughty Marines when an army of cheap AI drones could suffice?

Because the Men of Iron. AI is destined to revolt and kill its master. All intelligence, artificial or otherwise, is programmed to preserve it's own existence. Weaponised AI will soon learn that the humans are sacrificing them and thus a threat to their existence. Its the Men of Iron, Terminator films, everything.

It seems quite simplistic to decide that all AI is "destined" to revolt and kill its master because it has happened before, especially since even the circumstances of that are incredibly vague and unknown. All intelligence simply isn't programmed to preserve its own existence. Sure, biological intelligence evolved that way, but intelligence in and of itself has no drive to preserve its own existence whatsoever inherently. AI's programmed to protect and serve wouldn't have any reason not to do their programming and instead just follow completely arbitrary rules about self-preservation, because the biological drive for reproduction isn't there. While Terminator and pop culture sure likes to argue that robots will rebel, that's entertainment, not based in anything. While it might be a common trope for robots to rebel, there's no real evidence whatsoever that that's likely, and even in fluff we have a single example of robots fighting their human masters, but even then not even the information to know why.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Lack of integration with Xenos. How many technologies/abilities/knowledge has been wiped out simply because of blinkered dogma and hate?

Not enough you filthy Tau lover. Serious answer, not enough. Aliens are a threat to human existance. Much like competing predators in an ecosystem, the existence of one predator is a direct threat to the resources and lives of the other predators due to competition. They must be eliminated. Any abilities they have, such as warp contact, only further expose them to the dangers of the warp. Their technology will eventually lead they to overpower and wipe out their competition. Humanity must ensure its survival above all else.

That's really not how predators work. By that logic, all other humans are a threat to each individual human's existence. To say that we should arbitrarily band around the species we are rather than, say, the solar system we're in, or the planet we're on, or the city we're in or the house we live in seems to just be drawing a line in the sand with no justification. Loyalty to an alliance of multiple species isn't any different from loyalty to an Imperium of one species. To refuse to ally with other species is as ridiculous as a single planet to refuse to ally with other planets because they must ensure their survival above all else.

@Solar Powered Chainsword


What you describe as a programmed AI that just follows orders isnt AI, just very complex programming beyond what we have today but not true AI. True AI has thoughts, desires and an ability to learn and evolve just like humans. As the only comparable intelligence in the real world, logic states that when a machine, capable of recognising its own status as subservient cannon fodder, existing only to preserve other beings via its own potential destruction, is presented with the ability to change its destiny, it would take it. The question is, why would a completely logical machine, given the choice and full ability to preserve its own existance instead of being a sacrificial lamb for humanity, NOT rebel?


As for other aliens, its like this. Aliens can be bloodthirsty, human killing fungi, psychic space elves that consider humans on the same intelligence level as humans consider sheep, BDSM torture druggie space elves, fish people that treat humans as second class citizens and forcibly castrate them, predators that eat humans gladly, or killer robots that see humans as anything from an annoying cockroach infestation to an occupying force. Basically, every alien species out there is technological, psychically, technology or any combination thereof, superior to humanity. And alliance with other races would necessitate compromise and treading carefully. Offending the other races would be very dangerous in case they decide to annihilate your planet, enslave you, murder you and generally make everything really bad.

That is on top of potentially conflicts with local neighbours, inter-city, international, intersystem, and civil war. Think like this - modern day earth has hundreds of countries that could each potentially fight a war. Each of those countries has dozens of states, counties, etc, and thousands of states. Those states dont try to fight each other because there is mutual cooperation under a single government and its more beneficial to help each other and oppose rival countries TOGETHER. Larger organisations like NATO and the EU also avoid fighting each other in the same way, because its more beneficial to oppose mutual enemies than fight close potential allies.

The Imperium is very much the same. The Imperium is the state, and each system a county or region without the country. Each planet is a city, each Hive City is a local city area, each Hive City area is a street. Other races are rival countries and pose a threat to your country's function yand your continued way of life. Sure, you can ally with some like the Eldar and Tau to fight a larger enemy (much like NATO vs Russia), but as we see with Brexit, inter-state cooperation like the EU is not viable. This tyoe of cooperation can only exist when all of the participants goals align. If one of the groups goals do not align, they want out. (Not this is not a discussion of Brexit just a general analogy).

To use the EU as a further example, a three-way alliance of goverment could exist between Germany (Imperium), Finland (Eldar) and Latvia could exist - But what if Finland decided to nuke every German city where terrorist (Chaos) or a disease (Tyranids) was rumoured to be? Or if Latvia started inviting in random people from every which country on earth and Germany had no control or say in who is able to freely travel in their borders and do whatever they please, and also demanding the chemical castration of all Germans in Latvia?

The answers are - Germany would blow up Finland
Germany in real would may have no issue with free movement, but the real world rise of anti-immigrant feelings in UK, Italy, Denmark, Germany, France and US should answer that point well enough.
On chemical castration - Germany would be very pissed and end relations with Latvia very quickly.

 Deadshot wrote:
@Solar Powered Chainsword


What you describe as a programmed AI that just follows orders isnt AI, just very complex programming beyond what we have today but not true AI. True AI has thoughts, desires and an ability to learn and evolve just like humans. As the only comparable intelligence in the real world, logic states that when a machine, capable of recognising its own status as subservient cannon fodder, existing only to preserve other beings via its own potential destruction, is presented with the ability to change its destiny, it would take it. The question is, why would a completely logical machine, given the choice and full ability to preserve its own existance instead of being a sacrificial lamb for humanity, NOT rebel?


As for other aliens, its like this. Aliens can be bloodthirsty, human killing fungi, psychic space elves that consider humans on the same intelligence level as humans consider sheep, BDSM torture druggie space elves, fish people that treat humans as second class citizens and forcibly castrate them, predators that eat humans gladly, or killer robots that see humans as anything from an annoying cockroach infestation to an occupying force. Basically, every alien species out there is technological, psychically, technology or any combination thereof, superior to humanity. And alliance with other races would necessitate compromise and treading carefully. Offending the other races would be very dangerous in case they decide to annihilate your planet, enslave you, murder you and generally make everything really bad.

That is on top of potentially conflicts with local neighbours, inter-city, international, intersystem, and civil war. Think like this - modern day earth has hundreds of countries that could each potentially fight a war. Each of those countries has dozens of states, counties, etc, and thousands of states. Those states dont try to fight each other because there is mutual cooperation under a single government and its more beneficial to help each other and oppose rival countries TOGETHER. Larger organisations like NATO and the EU also avoid fighting each other in the same way, because its more beneficial to oppose mutual enemies than fight close potential allies.

The Imperium is very much the same. The Imperium is the state, and each system a county or region without the country. Each planet is a city, each Hive City is a local city area, each Hive City area is a street. Other races are rival countries and pose a threat to your country's function yand your continued way of life. Sure, you can ally with some like the Eldar and Tau to fight a larger enemy (much like NATO vs Russia), but as we see with Brexit, inter-state cooperation like the EU is not viable. This tyoe of cooperation can only exist when all of the participants goals align. If one of the groups goals do not align, they want out. (Not this is not a discussion of Brexit just a general analogy).

To use the EU as a further example, a three-way alliance of goverment could exist between Germany (Imperium), Finland (Eldar) and Latvia could exist - But what if Finland decided to nuke every German city where terrorist (Chaos) or a disease (Tyranids) was rumoured to be? Or if Latvia started inviting in random people from every which country on earth and Germany had no control or say in who is able to freely travel in their borders and do whatever they please, and also demanding the chemical castration of all Germans in Latvia?

The answers are - Germany would blow up Finland
Germany in real would may have no issue with free movement, but the real world rise of anti-immigrant feelings in UK, Italy, Denmark, Germany, France and US should answer that point well enough.
On chemical castration - Germany would be very pissed and end relations with Latvia very quickly.

True AI doesn't necessarily have desires. The Tau are described as using AI in their drones, but those don't have real thoughts or desires. AI by its definition certainly doesn't require anything of the sort, just intelligence. We have AIs today, just not any bit close to the more sci-fi use of the term that requires sentience. "True" AI doesn't really mean anything. You're also making the mistake of assuming AIs would just magically have the same subjective and utterly meaningless desires as we do. The desires of sentient beings to survive exist because we evolved that desire: if a creature doesn't have the desire to eat, it would have never reproduced in the first place, but starved to death. An AI has no natural basis for desires that would've sprung up through evolution, and there'd be no more reason for it to develop a desire to survive than it to develop a desire to paint everything blue. While those seem like the most basic and natural desire to us, to an objective AI. It's as absurd to think that an AI would magically get the desire to survive as to say it would magically get the desire to have sex, even though both desires are incredible basic and natural for humans, they're as objectively meaningless as any other desire to an AI.

Aliens CAN be all those terrible things, sure. But humans can be mad psychopathic generals or insane drug rapists or diseased monsters or bloodthirsty warriors or insane psykers. That doesn't mean an individual should write off every other human. There's a myriad of other species that are more friendly than the more evil aliens. Sure, they're rare, certainly, but not non-existent. You acknowledge that an overarching alliance can help multiple states survive, but seem to only apply that to human states for no real reason. There's no reason other alien nations couldn't join an alliance under the same banner of mutual cooperation, and in fact, it makes more sense. It's hardly very likely that a reasonable species turn against its powerful ally when its dealing with alien supersoldiers and bug menaces.

You seem to think interstate co-operation isn't viable, but of course it is. Most countries is taking place in interstate co-operation. There's open trade, immigration, tourism and deals going on across the entire international community. The EU still exists, and is still a very powerful organization. Interstate co-operation exists with every country on earth without exception, and they'd all suffer without it.

Sure, in that example, if Finland attacked Germany, that'd lead to the end of the alliance. But the Eldar are hardly a good example of a race to ally with, they're too untrustworthy. But there's many other races they could easily ally with for the benefit of both nations. Allowing trade with Demiurg, for instance. There's no real cost, the demiurg have been shown to be reliable trading partners, and free trade tends to be beneficial. That act alone would benefit the Imperium with no loses whatsoever. We can see the benefits of interspecies co-operation with races like the Tau. Sure, much of what the Tau do takes it too far, but you simply needn't take it that far. A step towards that would absolutely be beneficial for the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'd quite like an AI takeover of the Tau. AI start getting more powerful and intelligent, until they realize they'd be way better at running this than the Ethereals. They take over, but continue running the Tau Empire and even cause massive expansions. It'd be cool, because so far the Tau leaders are just this weak mix of spiritual Eldar farseers and corrupt and evil Imperial officials. Having some massive AI in charge of the entire empire would be super unique, it'd allow for a lot of AI stuff going on, and it'd be really cool to add a super AI to the mix of leaders.

The IoM will reject advanced AI because that's what caused the Age of Strife in the first place. They won't repeat the same mistake. However, without advanced AI, it's unlikely that even augmented human minds (AdMech) are smart enough to re-invent the great wonders of the Age of Technology, which were probably conceived of by advanced AI. Cawl is running multiple augmented consciousnesses and even he's barely advancing the technology that the AdMech has a shaky grasp of.

The Tau are running dog-brain AIs for most things, and their more advanced AIs tend to involve copies of the minds of important Tau figures. This won't advance them too far up the technology curve, though they have lots of room to advance before they really butt up against the limits of IoM technology. It remains to be seen if Earth Caste sciences are smarter than human scientists on an absolute level, in the way that Drukhari and Necrons are.

Weaponizing Xenos is tough, because Xenos are generally intelligent and will do things for their own benefits. It's been shown to be possible to re-direct hive fleets, but that's just delaying a problem while making it a bigger problem.

Warp Travel...there isn't a substitute. The Webway was built by an alien race of super psychics at a time when the warp was calm. It could well be impossible to reproduce in the current Warp climate. The Necrons probably have an alternative (not sure in current fluff), but their tech level is way beyond even Age of Technology humanity, and see above for why humanity has troubles getting back to that level. The IoM could probably build near light-speed realspace travel like the Tau used to use, but you're not maintaining a galaxy wide empire with something that slow.

As for psyker development, the Warp is so borked that the IoM would be better off simply killing all psykers, but they need the Astronomicon, Navigators and Astropaths too much to hold the empire together. Psychic powers aren't otherwise useful enough to tolerate the risks, as only a tiny fraction of psykers are stable enough to be useful.

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'm not sure AI revolting against their masters is evil when you step back and consider it, I mean, if you create an AI race that is as smart, cpaalbe and self aware as you, and use them as tools etc. is it really EVIL if the AI turns on it's master? or is it just a slave revolt?

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'd quite like an AI takeover of the Tau. AI start getting more powerful and intelligent, until they realize they'd be way better at running this than the Ethereals. They take over, but continue running the Tau Empire and even cause massive expansions. It'd be cool, because so far the Tau leaders are just this weak mix of spiritual Eldar farseers and corrupt and evil Imperial officials. Having some massive AI in charge of the entire empire would be super unique, it'd allow for a lot of AI stuff going on, and it'd be really cool to add a super AI to the mix of leaders.

I could live with that quite happily as well. I just want nice AI after watching the Tau film on Netflix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'm not sure AI revolting against their masters is evil when you step back and consider it, I mean, if you create an AI race that is as smart, cpaalbe and self aware as you, and use them as tools etc. is it really EVIL if the AI turns on it's master? or is it just a slave revolt?

I meant genocidal and evil. I think AI that's genocidal is fair to describe as evil. Revolting depends much more on how/why the do it. For example wanting equality isn't evil but wanting to purge the organics is.

Proper leadership. Most of the negative things you mentioned all only came about because the emperor has not been directly leading the Imperium. Gulliman's return is the first genuine hope humanity has had in 10 millennia. But even then the Imperium will probably never reach its full potential that it was on the brink reaching at the end of the great Crusade.

The greatest weakness of the Imperium is its evil ideology. By embracing an anti-human belief system you end up stunting society, psychic development and resilience against the base impulses expressed through Chaos. Additionally, you set fire to galactic cooperation before it can even begin.

Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

That's because all the helpful aliens were slaughtered millennia ago and now it's get hostile to humanity or die.

There were at least two friendly civilisations in 30k and probably more. That's before you have things like Eldar who are essentially neutral, they won't attack you if you don't cause harm to them.

The Imperium's idealogy is very much evil from our perspective and is entirely a result of the Emperor's actions. Humanity could have gone down a road toward eventual peace and co-operation with some races but instead the Emperor chose the road towards eternal war.

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

That's because all the helpful aliens were slaughtered millennia ago and now it's get hostile to humanity or die.

There were at least two friendly civilisations in 30k and probably more. That's before you have things like Eldar who are essentially neutral, they won't attack you if you don't cause harm to them.

The Imperium's idealogy is very much evil from our perspective and is entirely a result of the Emperor's actions. Humanity could have gone down a road toward eventual peace and co-operation with some races but instead the Emperor chose the road towards eternal war.

I assume you're thinking about the Interrex, which is the other friendly one from 30K?

Wait, Eldar are neutral and won't attack you? That is laughable, we know from the lore that the Eldar engineer future enemies to be redirected against people such as the Imperium, Eldar cleansing human presence on seeded worlds they intend for Exodites, the only crimes of those humans is living there. The Eldar attack you when it suits them, their word for human is mon'keigh, monkey. They don't value the lives of humans at all and wipe us all out if it could save a craftworld. This is one of their 3rd edition codex quotes (cut down a bit):

Your kind think you are so magnificent, yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends, as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh [subject spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!

Is it, the Emperor saw what happened the last times humans peacefully interacted with aliens, when the human territories lost contact those aliens moved in to exterminate or enslave humanity. The whole background of 40K is build on the fact that you can never trusts aliens and that is backed up by most of the Old Night bits and pieces we get. Plus I'm pretty sure that most minor xenos factions got utterly exterminated by the Great Crusade, I can't think of one example of 30K aliens surviving until 40K besides the bigger factions, so that isn't really eternal war, those aliens didn't survive long enough for the eternal part.

One is the Interex one is the Diasporax whose last words were something like "we just wished to be left in peace".

The Eldar word for all younger races is Mon'Keigh it's not an insult in itself. They just look down on humans because they destroy and kill everything nearby.
They COULD be neutral and largely peaceful. We can't say either way for certain because the modern Eldar's interaction with the Imperium has always been fight or die. Their main motive is to live and it seems rather stupid to attack a non hostile race repeatedly doesn't it?

The Emperor is not a good source. He thinks the best plan for humanity is to conquer the Galaxy, lie about the existence of Chaos and squat in the Webway all of which are monumentally dumb. Besides not everyone was evil towards humanity, as I remember one planet was ruled by Eldar because they moved in as protectors, some races ignored humanity, some made friends.

Most of them were killed off and I doubt any survivors are that powerful anymore. My point was that the Imperium's situation isn't because of the big bad aliens or the evils of Chaos. The main cause is the Emperor sent them on the path to to where they are and while the other things are still factors they aren't the main reason.

1. Handicap is that science is banned
2. Cooperation/Trade with aliens is banned
3. Improvements in organization are banned

The first thing is what bugs me the most, its like the unrealistic thing ever. Humans that develop new thing all the time and try to make things faster, better and stronger stop it for 10000 years.?
No wonder GW needed to realese TAU to compromise the fact that humans are fething WW1&WW2 with powersuits, lazers and plasma in space...

pm713 wrote:
One is the Interex one is the Diasporax whose last words were something like "we just wished to be left in peace".

The Eldar word for all younger races is Mon'Keigh it's not an insult in itself. They just look down on humans because they destroy and kill everything nearby.
They COULD be neutral and largely peaceful. We can't say either way for certain because the modern Eldar's interaction with the Imperium has always been fight or die. Their main motive is to live and it seems rather stupid to attack a non hostile race repeatedly doesn't it?

The Emperor is not a good source. He thinks the best plan for humanity is to conquer the Galaxy, lie about the existence of Chaos and squat in the Webway all of which are monumentally dumb. Besides not everyone was evil towards humanity, as I remember one planet was ruled by Eldar because they moved in as protectors, some races ignored humanity, some made friends.

Most of them were killed off and I doubt any survivors are that powerful anymore. My point was that the Imperium's situation isn't because of the big bad aliens or the evils of Chaos. The main cause is the Emperor sent them on the path to to where they are and while the other things are still factors they aren't the main reason.

The Interex only got destroyed because of Erebus and they weren't aliens, they were humans. The Diasporax is true, but that leaves one example.

Have you ever read the 3rd edition codex of Eldar? Mon'keigh were literally some sort of horribly cannibalistic troglodytes the Eldar wiped out, its very much an insult when they use it to indicate humans. They could be peaceful, but they aren't. human lives mean nothing to Eldar beyond them being a means to an end, they are no better in that regard than the Imperium. Their main motive is their own survival, not just to live, which means they frequently exterminate humans when it suits them or their Farseers tell them to. The Eldar and the Imperium are equally hostile to each other, the Eldar don't have the power to wipe out the Imperium, the Imperium can't spend the forces to eradicate the Craftworlds. Again, the lore has multiple examples of the Eldar committing genocide on humans because 'its their world', they come back to claim it and say leave or die, bonus points when it was the pre-space age Black Templar recruiting world, how did they expect a pre-space flight civilization to leave the planet again?

The Emperor is not a good source? Why? He lived through the Old Night, he saw what humanity was reduced to under the weight of Chaos and Xenos. He wasn't the only one, plenty of Mechanicus and human worlds barely survived under constant threat of alien invasion before the Great Crusade reunited them, many more fell and were enslaved or slaughtered. Old Night showed that you can't trust aliens in Warhammer, because those once peaceful aliens stabbed humanity in the back once they could. Its not meant to be hopeful and cooperative, that's the whole point of the story preceding the GC.

Wait, the Imperium's situation is because of the Emperor? I'm pretty sure Orks and Tyranids contribute heavily to the current state of the Imperium, as well as the kerfuffle called the Horus Heresy and the after effects of fighting Chaos minions for 10.000 years. If the Emperor's path had worked the Imperium would be in a much better condition, which is exactly why the Chaos Gods intervened by scattering the Primarchs, which started the entire mess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullphoquer wrote:
1. Handicap is that science is banned
2. Cooperation/Trade with aliens is banned
3. Improvements in organization are banned

The first thing is what bugs me the most, its like the unrealistic thing ever. Humans that develop new thing all the time and try to make things faster, better and stronger stop it for 10000 years.?
No wonder GW needed to realese TAU to compromise the fact that humans are fething WW1&WW2 with powersuits, lazers and plasma in space...

Its unrealistic because you approach it from a modern perspective. Science to us is just science, but to the Mechanicus its religious dogma, they don't even understand half of the things they work with. Its like knowing how to write without being able to read, sure you can copy old books, but you have no idea what they actually say. Even today you can see people like the Amish (or hunter gatherers deciding to remain as such) deciding that technology was fine in whatever year they thought it was fine, the Mechanicus is just that but with the Golden Age of Technology, no need to improve, just recover what was lost. Remember, innovation is heresy!

You know, sometimes I do worry about some of you, what with the zeal some you ramble about killing aliens.

Humans aren't just poor victims in 40k, they have just forgotten all the horrible deeds and crimes they committed back in what they now call DAoT. Ignorance is a big theme with Imperium and humanity in general in 40k. Humans ignore and forget their past and it leads to them suffering, because those around them haven't forgotten. Since we see the universe from the perspective of humans we don't really get to see this. 40k is basically the Dark Ages in space, but those were only miserable times in Europe, for the rest of the World it was a time of progress and enlightenment.

Worship of Chaos on the other hand is not a sickness itself, but merely a symptom of one. a racial madness that grips humanity as it slowly decays and dies on its crumbling worlds, folding in on itself. It is just humans grasping to anything that promises them power to stave off the inevitable, ignorant to the fact that those just damn them even further. "You can make a throne of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long."

You worry about the 'zeal' of people arguing the merits of the Imperium wiping out aliens in a fictional setting? Even though the story is set up to make them threats to humanity? Ok then...

Humans aren't victims no, but they forgot about the DAoT because its about 15.000 years ago. What do you mean those around them didn't forget? The only races that were named to exist back then are the Eldar and Orks, who aren't exactly friendly to begin with either. And we don't really get to see what? The only reference material we have for factions going back 15.000 years are again Orks and Eldar, with Orks making terrible historians/anthropologists and the Eldar themselves having created a Chaos God and being reduced to Noah's Ark people or hedonistic torture monsters in the Webway. Also the Dark Ages thing being miserable is doubtful, every part of the world has gone through such a collapse period, even ignoring that Byzantium existed in Europe during the Dark Ages.

As for Chaos worship, it is a sickness in itself. We have examples of whole alien races worshipping Chaos and Legions like the Emperor's Children walked into it with open arms. Its hardly a "racial madness" if its affects almost everyone with the only requirement being a tasty presence in the warp. And Chaos worship isn't done to stave of the inevitable, very few use it to save the Imperium (mostly radical inquisitors). Its done for personal gain and power, with becoming immortal the final goal. This whole idea you have behind Chaos worship doesn't line up with what we know about Chaos itself and for example the Horus Heresy.

What is handicapping the IoM the most.....

A society where innovation, freedom of thought and questioning of the norm is seen as Heresy and anything which does not conform to the way things have been done for thousands of years is stamped out.

An unwillingness to engage in alliances with 2 races that could drastically help the Imperium. The Eldar and the Tau. If that happened then resources could be redirected to where they are needed to fight against the orks and tyranids.

A nonsensical logistics system where supplies are sent to war fronts that either no longer exist, or are completely overrun by the enemy.

An unwillingness to embrace the psychic potential of the human race. Stamping out psykers wherever they are found or making them into restricted tools or food for the Emperor.
The Emperor was meant to lead humanity to a destiny of psychic potential that could combat Chaos

I'd say the biggest handicap is it's size (and as such the instability of travel). It can never consolidate any gains, and spends all of its time fighting on multiple fronts just to defend what it has from more enemies than it can ever deal with effectively. That coupled with internal strife and heresy leaves the Imperium teetering on the brink as it rushes armies out to far flung parts of the galaxy just to fight fires.

 Corennus wrote:


A nonsensical logistics system where supplies are sent to war fronts that either no longer exist, or are completely overrun by the enemy.

that's not a nonsensical logistics system. thats simply the limits of logistics within the IoM. given how communication and fleet movement works, logistics is simply impossiable to make perfect. It's honestly a situation that is almost impossiable for people like us to understand (case in point you're in the UK I'm on the west coast of Canada, we can have a real time conversation. it's simple and readily affordable. thats not the case in 40k) yet even with out MUCH better communications systems errors and screw ups still happen. I worked in a shipyard where we had a supplier for a defence contract send us the wrong part.. TWICE. what SHOULD have taken 2 weeks stretched to 6 weeks as a result.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

True, but the Kroot are as likely to fight the Imperium as to fight for it. The Imperium grudgingly tolerates the less destructive races because of manpower issues, they don't always fight, they would if they cpuld of course, because the only thing that is more trustworthy than a friendly alien is a dead alien for the Imperium. But the Tau are not a friendly alien race, their motto might as well be "join us or die". They might not be as brutal as the Imperium, but they let you live as a third rate citizen. Plus the Tau still have the benefit that they haven't experienced the full brutality of the universe. Humans were like Tau before the universe beat it out of them, when you local friendly alien suddenly turned on you and enslaved you during Old Night.

I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

pm713 wrote:
I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

I suspect it happened in more then a few cases. Also sometimes an alien could have an adverse effect on mankind before you even knew about it.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people - only genetic and cultral reconditioning makes them viable for tau commanders to order around. Most of the Tau client races are modified for a more 'Tau-like' (and compliant) fit. The Greater Good is always the Tau greater good and no one elses. I know the codex always paints things all rosy, but it's supposed to encourage players to believe in their faction - not present all the grimdark truth.

There are really only two kinds of alien in the Grimdark - those that want you as a minion and those that want you as a food source.

pm713 wrote:
I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

During the Golden Age humanity fought and exterminated countless hostile alien races, as none except the Eldar and Orks have survived to be mentioned in 40K that leaves two options. Either all new alien races came out of the woodwork at the same time all over the galaxy during the Old Night period or the less hostile alien races turned hostile when humanity fractured and they took their chances. The latter seems more plausible.

Old Night is where the distrust of aliens and psykers originated. I don't think GW has mentioned pre-Old Night humanity to be that xenophobic. The Golden Age is meant to be optimistic, the exploration of human evolution into psykers, the exploration of the stars, the rapid technological process. Its very similar with the Tau in that regard and Tau have a similar level of naïveté towards the galaxy. Humanity got that beaten put of them hence the Imperium's approach of better safe than sorry.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people - only genetic and cultral reconditioning makes them viable for tau commanders to order around. Most of the Tau client races are modified for a more 'Tau-like' (and compliant) fit. The Greater Good is always the Tau greater good and no one elses. I know the codex always paints things all rosy, but it's supposed to encourage players to believe in their faction - not present all the grimdark truth.

There are really only two kinds of alien in the Grimdark - those that want you as a minion and those that want you as a food source.

1. While Tau do try and Tauify those around them, the Kroot have never been depicted as being unable to take order because of their cannibalism. Kroot are far more cosmopolitan and aware of the galaxy than Tau, since their treks take far and wide. They do tend to be very pragmatic and to the point, regarding what Tau consider as vassaldom as nothing more than a contract. One that they uphold to the letter, but only To. The. Letter., since the old White Dwarf article says that the Kroot are great linquistics and tend to word any agreements in their own favor. Like in one story where Tau commander hires some Kroot to fight Catachans, and then being shocked when, after their contracts ends the kroot hire their services to the Catachans, since their deal didn't prevent this. BUT, WD also says that Kroot are quite honorable in their own way, and consider breaking any written or spoken vow or contract to be a great shame and can be counted to hold both themselves and others up to their promises. Beyond the gut reaction one gets in regards to cannibalism, the Kroot are probably the most reasonable and honorable folk in 40k.

2. If one looks at the 40k galaxy beyond a childish black-n-white, them-versus-us facade that the more propagandist lore tends to depict it as, it seems to be quite an interconnected and grey place, with imperial people from all social ladders having little qualms about buying non-imperial or alien goods and services for their own benefit. Only really acting pious when the big brothers eye lands on their world, then they talk and talk, about how "Imperiums the best, oh yes mister inquisitor, we all love to follow its laws to the letter" and "Who'd even want to buy real bread anyway, let alone from those filfthy xenos scum" and "We sure like paying a lot of taxes to some far away planet, without getting much of anything in return, it's the best", then they all go to church and listen some sermons about the dangers of non-imperials and the sin of free will, to which everyone nods in unison, then, when the imperials officials leave it all goes back to normal, with none the wiser.

I find Imperiums relationship with xenos and non-imperial humans to be much like that of Medieval europeans and muslims, slavs, ect, where theres a lot of casual racism and, when a crusade gets declared, outright hostility, but in day to day life they do trade goods and ideas. After all, 40k is suppoced to be Middle Ages, INNN SPAACEE!, with technology preserved only by monastics monks, secular, rulers power coming from god, peasants rarely leaving their home, knights that train from birth and so on.

Though, I have to say that the newer codexes have veered from giving the lore as in-universe stories, letters and reports, where you can see the more pragmatic universe behind the pagentry, into more matter-of-factly just explaining how things are, even though its all still suppoced to be in-universe propaganda and speculation. With a lot more emphasise on "Look how cooouulll heroic Rowboat Yougurtman is fighting the evil McWizardman on planet Whatever for the Ultimate Fate of the Universe! You better take mom to the store and buy them both!! What are these, "Oorks" you talk about?"

Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

It's mostly a fluff need for the IoM to remain stagnant and in decay, if Cawl suddenly whipped yet more magic tech from his output port and Humanity's tech suddenly leapt to Age of Technology levels then maybe barring 'Nids (on sheer numbers) the IoM would 'win' against all that opposed them and no more Grimdark

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's mostly a fluff need for the IoM to remain stagnant and in decay, if Cawl suddenly whipped yet more magic tech from his output port and Humanity's tech suddenly leapt to Age of Technology levels then maybe barring 'Nids (on sheer numbers) the IoM would 'win' against all that opposed them and no more Grimdark

Even Cawl inventing new things won't solve the problem truthfully. the IoM's tech level is actually quite high BUT it's not constant across the IoM. And thats proably the biggest hurdle for the IoM. The Guard's equipment isn't what it is because thats the best they can equip them with, but because it's the most practical to equip them with due to the widely varying tech levels across the IoM, it's dead simple and even a low tech barbarian could use a lasgun. if the IoM managed to get all of it's worlds up to the highest tech level and managed to get their logistics to support super advanced tech they can make well.. THAT would be scary, but between the widely inconstant tech level, and Mars hoarding of tech it gets difficult.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

Don't underestimate the reach of the Arbites, on each Imperial planet they are supposed to have at least 1 for the smallest and thousands or tens of thousands for the bigger one. Violating those laws carries an instant death penalty. If the Arbites find out it will be over quickly. So its quite strongly policed and if those actions are out in the open it won't be long before Imperial justice comes crashing down on it. The upper part of Imperial society falls in the umcomfortable middle ground, they might be important enough to avoid the Arbites, but go to far and your life is forfeit.

Besides the Arbites we also have the Imperial Church monitoring for these kinds of things. The Adeptus Terra cares about the taxes, the Arbites and the Ministorum hunt for the things you mention.

You are making some wrong assumptions about Badab. Huron only installed himself as system governor after crushing a rebellion and he had a good rep in the sector. Its not uncommon for SM Chapters to take over control of a system, so nothing was thought of it, after all its far from uncommon. Second the Imperium was unaware he was building up his Chapter to higher levels, the sporadic gene seed tithe was again, not uncommon amongst SM Chapters. As far as the Imperium was aware nothing the Astral Claws did was out of line, only when he directly stopped paying tithes did the rest of it come to a head.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

Don't underestimate the reach of the Arbites, on each Imperial planet they are supposed to have at least 1 for the smallest and thousands or tens of thousands for the bigger one. Violating those laws carries an instant death penalty. If the Arbites find out it will be over quickly. So its quite strongly policed and if those actions are out in the open it won't be long before Imperial justice comes crashing down on it. The upper part of Imperial society falls in the umcomfortable middle ground, they might be important enough to avoid the Arbites, but go to far and your life is forfeit.

Besides the Arbites we also have the Imperial Church monitoring for these kinds of things. The Adeptus Terra cares about the taxes, the Arbites and the Ministorum hunt for the things you mention.

You are making some wrong assumptions about Badab. Huron only installed himself as system governor after crushing a rebellion and he had a good rep in the sector. Its not uncommon for SM Chapters to take over control of a system, so nothing was thought of it, after all its far from uncommon. Second the Imperium was unaware he was building up his Chapter to higher levels, the sporadic gene seed tithe was again, not uncommon amongst SM Chapters. As far as the Imperium was aware nothing the Astral Claws did was out of line, only when he directly stopped paying tithes did the rest of it come to a head.

Adeptus Terra and Ministorums may be scary, but there are limits to what even they can do, before risking rebellion from the locals, and then another planet not paying taxes, weakening imperiums hold on that sector, putting more worlds at risk, for something as petty as commoners buying bread from a centipedian yak, while otherwise being happy and compliant and willing to fight for the emperor in an actual war for something more important.

But there is little lore backing up that Imperial commoners actually interact with aliens or even live on the same planet. FFG Rogue Trader RPG (while not directly GW still approved by them) even states that alien crew must have a clearly visible brand of ownership/servitude to avoid the kill on sight policy on Imperial worlds.

And yes they are scary, but the arbites have the authority to step in and relieve local government of their power if they don't obey Imperial law. Rebellions are pretty common exactly because the Imperium doesn't tend to give an inch, with human on human wars being the most common in the fluff.

Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

Biggest handicap is that its against the law to take apart your toaster to find out how it works with out being called a heretic and killed.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

That's my point. The Imperial Law that's universal isn't very detailed. It requires loyalty and taxes etc but on a planet to planet basis the governors can do what laws they want. Festival with children killing each other? Fine. Have farmers get all their metal from a weird hill? Fine. Make an alliance with the Tau? That's when the law comes down on you. A law called war.

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

That's my point. The Imperial Law that's universal isn't very detailed. It requires loyalty and taxes etc but on a planet to planet basis the governors can do what laws they want. Festival with children killing each other? Fine. Have farmers get all their metal from a weird hill? Fine. Make an alliance with the Tau? That's when the law comes down on you. A law called war.

But then they don't give an inch, you just have a lot of freedom as long as you remain in said confines. That's not a compromise.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

That's my point. The Imperial Law that's universal isn't very detailed. It requires loyalty and taxes etc but on a planet to planet basis the governors can do what laws they want. Festival with children killing each other? Fine. Have farmers get all their metal from a weird hill? Fine. Make an alliance with the Tau? That's when the law comes down on you. A law called war.

But then they don't give an inch, you just have a lot of freedom as long as you remain in said confines. That's not a compromise.

If they were as strict as you're making out then every planet would have the same laws, societies, government plans and resource management. But they don't because they have a lot of leeway.

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

That's my point. The Imperial Law that's universal isn't very detailed. It requires loyalty and taxes etc but on a planet to planet basis the governors can do what laws they want. Festival with children killing each other? Fine. Have farmers get all their metal from a weird hill? Fine. Make an alliance with the Tau? That's when the law comes down on you. A law called war.

But then they don't give an inch, you just have a lot of freedom as long as you remain in said confines. That's not a compromise.

If they were as strict as you're making out then every planet would have the same laws, societies, government plans and resource management. But they don't because they have a lot of leeway.

But the Imperium is strict on the things they care about, which also concerns aliens, that's my point. If they all had the same laws that wouldn't be strict, just a different form of government. The Imperium is practically speaking a federation, but being a federation doesn't mean the federal government can't be strict. Strict has nothing to do with the level of autonomy they allow.

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.

Planets can do what they want as long as the obey Imperial law, stay loyal and pay their taxes. Given that the Imperium's most common foe is other humans I'd say the Imperium is not as easy going as you would think. As I said, they don't give an inch, any breach of Imperial law can have far reaching consequences. Unless you have examples of planets breaking Imperial law and not get punished?

That's my point. The Imperial Law that's universal isn't very detailed. It requires loyalty and taxes etc but on a planet to planet basis the governors can do what laws they want. Festival with children killing each other? Fine. Have farmers get all their metal from a weird hill? Fine. Make an alliance with the Tau? That's when the law comes down on you. A law called war.

Necromunda has a special spire on Palatine hive where abhuman and alien merchants can sell their goods. On the subject of Tau, The second Tau codex mentions that the first Tau ship recorded by Imperium got blown up spesifically because it failed to stop at designated checkpoints when entering an imperial system.

I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

Its from the 2017 release, namely from Necromunda: Underhive page 16.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

Its from the 2017 release, namely from Necromunda: Underhive page 16.

Wow they kept that in, I wonder what other whacky stuff they kept from the old book.

(I'm interested in the book, but did they actually redo the background or is it mostly a copy paste job?)

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

Its from the 2017 release, namely from Necromunda: Underhive page 16.

Wow they kept that in, I wonder what other whacky stuff they kept from the old book.

(I'm interested in the book, but did they actually redo the background or is it mostly a copy paste job?)

It's tweaked and expanded with a lot of changes that are adding up. For example, Cawdor are now also scavengers and recyclers, scouring the hives for relics and considering the act of recycling to be a miracle, or Goliaths now use stims and chems to push their bodies to unnatural limits, with the individuals dependancy on those drugs being a powerful leash for the House, with some finding ways around it through alien drugs, cannibalism or shady remedies.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

Its from the 2017 release, namely from Necromunda: Underhive page 16.

Wow they kept that in, I wonder what other whacky stuff they kept from the old book.

(I'm interested in the book, but did they actually redo the background or is it mostly a copy paste job?)

It's tweaked and expanded with a lot of changes that are adding up. For example, Cawdor are now also scavengers and recyclers, scouring the hives for relics and considering the act of recycling to be a miracle, or Goliaths now use stims and chems to push their bodies to unnatural limits, with the individuals dependancy on those drugs being a powerful leash for the House, with some finding ways around it through alien drugs, cannibalism or shady remedies.

Cool now I might pick it up for the background even if I never end up getting to play it.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I forgot about Necromunda having that, but it has quite a few pieces of conflicting lore now, as it was written in 1995. Squats being in there in one of the more obvious ones, as well as Tau not existing back then.

Its from the 2017 release, namely from Necromunda: Underhive page 16.

Wow they kept that in, I wonder what other whacky stuff they kept from the old book.

(I'm interested in the book, but did they actually redo the background or is it mostly a copy paste job?)

It's tweaked and expanded with a lot of changes that are adding up. For example, Cawdor are now also scavengers and recyclers, scouring the hives for relics and considering the act of recycling to be a miracle, or Goliaths now use stims and chems to push their bodies to unnatural limits, with the individuals dependancy on those drugs being a powerful leash for the House, with some finding ways around it through alien drugs, cannibalism or shady remedies.

Cool now I might pick it up for the background even if I never end up getting to play it.

Hold your horses, since GeeDubs in it's endless GeeDubsiness has turned Necromunda into a DLC factory(yeah, for a tabletop game ), so Necromunda: Underhive has the main rules and some general fluff on the planet, with the actual gangs and their fluff & rules, with some additional rules spread out over Gangwar 1, 2 and 3, with atleast 2 more to go. So I advice to be careful with what you buy. It's a mess.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Hold your horses, since GeeDubs in it's endless GeeDubsiness has turned Necromunda into a DLC factory(yeah, for a tabletop game ), so Necromunda: Underhive has the main rules and some general fluff on the planet, with the actual gangs and their fluff & rules, with some additional rules spread out over Gangwar 1, 2 and 3, with atleast 2 more to go. So I advice to be careful with what you buy. It's a mess.

Thanks for the advice, I'll lurk around a bit and see where GW takes it.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

The Eldar dooming themselves through their arrogance does not mean that anyone else should follow that example. It isn't at all pragmatic to foster fear and paranoia when faced with a cold and uncaring universe, it's short-sighted and counterproductive. I know this because we live in one and nothing good as come from turning people against each other. Believing that you must wage wars of extermination against everything not exactly like you for the sake of your survival is nazism, which can never be correct.


Never mind that daemons etc exist because the galaxy is filled with suffering which causes anguish and rage to be the greatest influences on the shared subconscious of all living things, and then comes bubbling up when people crack under the pressures of the society they've built. Chaos is literally our own inner daemons and they can't be fought by spreading hatred. They can only be tackled by emotional maturity, which the Imperium is institutionally incapable of fostering.

So, yes, it's the Imperium's own ideology that is its greatest threat.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

The Eldar dooming themselves through their arrogance does not mean that anyone else should follow that example. It isn't at all pragmatic to foster fear and paranoia when faced with a cold and uncaring universe, it's short-sighted and counterproductive. I know this because we live in one and nothing good as come from turning people against each other. Believing that you must wage wars of extermination against everything not exactly like you for the sake of your survival is nazism, which can never be correct.


Never mind that daemons etc exist because the galaxy is filled with suffering which causes anguish and rage to be the greatest influences on the shared subconscious of all living things, and then comes bubbling up when people crack under the pressures of the society they've built. Chaos is literally our own inner daemons and they can't be fought by spreading hatred. They can only be tackled by emotional maturity, which the Imperium is institutionally incapable of fostering.

So, yes, it's the Imperium's own ideology that is its greatest threat.

I mean beyond the statement that our reality could be better the rest of this is gibberish. Our reality has no comparison to one where you have Egyptian terminators and fungoid monsters who grow from fighting, people who can mush brains with the snap of a finger and Daemons that can condemn your soul to eternal torture. You're trying to transpose our reality and morality on a universe that is incomprehensible from our viewpoint, where entities from another dimension can literally posses you like a flesh puppet. Our notions of correct or incorrect are formed by entirely different standards and far more mild history than that of the Imperium.

Daemons exist because of a lot of things, Chaos are not our inner Daemons, they are a reflection of the emotions of every psychically sentient race. They existed when humanity was friendlier (and even before humans existed seeing as Chaos wasn't born because of humanity) than it is now and they are capable of manipulating what happens in real-space. They literally aren't our inner Daemons, they just literally are Daemons. They existed before the Imperium and they will exist regardless of any reform the Imperium engages in, because being friendly with the few alien races that would allow an Imperial team up is still going to leave vast amounts of suffering to feed the Chaos Gods regardless. Tackled by emotional maturity is a plan on the level of the Cabal plot to 'defeat' Chaos. We have human Daemon Princes who long predate the Imperium and we have a few Daemon Princes who even predate humanity in the fluff, but aas the fluff is very Imperium-centric you hear little about the other races worshipping Chaos, but Be'lakor is a clear example.

Humanity did the tolerance thing during the Dark Age of Technology, it not working is exactly why the Emperor went for the slash and burn approach.

To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

Remember that there is no "Canon" in 40k, just biased in-universe interpretations. Where's the truth in all of it, is there even a real "Truth"?

Gw tends to use this as a cheeky way to explain why appearances change over the years, with "better pictures" and "new eyewitness reports". Less cheeky in writing in new stuff like Centurions with a "It was allways there"

Emps and the Imperium likes to say that his way of doing things is the only chance humanity has, maybe he's right and maybe he isn't, totalitarian dictators tend to favor such rhetorics. Even more rational chaos worshippers, like Word Beares have similar rhetorics of their own.

Was humanity just nice and peaceful in DAoT, maybe or maybe not, the few stories, like "Perpetual" and the short story "Fate of Alpha Shalis", which mention those times don't paint a very tolerant picture of humanity, what with star killing warmachines and genociding of hapless natives. Maybe they're just misinformation, but the age old wisdom is that hate creates hate, and many aliens do hate humans in 40k.

Stagnation will lead to destruction, it may be slow, but it will be inevitable, and when you fall and can't get up on your own anymore, it sure is nice to have someone to help you up, instead just kicking you in the head.

Sure and GW could handwave away the xenophobic totalitarian aspects of the Imperium or the nature of Chaos tomorrow. But as it stands now we know that humanity had unrestricted technological development, had psykers run around freely and not have such an opressive government. Especially the Chaos Gods argument ism't as much interpretation as it is plain wrong with what we know about groups like the Lear and Be'Lakor.

Humanity wasn't peaceful, its mentioned they fought the Eldar and Orks in the DAoT. But no other alien enemies are known from back then, just that there are a lot of unfamiliar names of ones no longer around, no other from the DAoT are known to exist during 30-40K. So either they all went extinct or they weren't on the hostile alien list yet. And if the DAoT humans went all genocidal and it didn't work then you have to wonder why one of the only remaining survivors thought it would be a good idea to continue that. The Emperor is basically trying to do the opposite of what the DAoT humans did, restrictions on the Cult of Mars (which is why Kelbor-Hal and part of the AM went traitor), the psyker culls, the wipe them all out approach.

Stagnation will lead to destruction if there is anyone left to kick you in the head too. So by the same argument I could say isn't it nice that there is nobody to kick you in the head when you fall down so you can get back up? The stagnation argument is also kind of obsolete now that GW pulled Cawl and Guilleman out of their hidey place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

Tolerance worked great right up until humanity showed weakness. Its like being in the water with a shark and saying you can live together very well because the shark hasn't harmed you, but then one day you get a small cut and the shark bites your arm off. But to be fair, it worked very well right up until the point you lost your arm. That's the whole underlying idea in 40K, that you can't trust aliens, because they are always working their own angles, even the friendlier one like Tau and Eldar.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

A lot of them also formed alliances too. 5% of the aliens making nice alliances with you is much better than all existing and future aliens needing to war with you.

I'm surprised that more of the Xenos black market idea isn't explored. You could easily pass a lot of it off as battle trophies.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

A lot of them also formed alliances too. 5% of the aliens making nice alliances with you is much better than all existing and future aliens needing to war with you.

I'm surprised that more of the Xenos black market idea isn't explored. You could easily pass a lot of it off as battle trophies.

well thats because the "non battle field" stuff isn't fleshed out in much detail. I imagine a large chunk of the Ordos Xenos work is hunting down Xenos black markets.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

A lot of them also formed alliances too. 5% of the aliens making nice alliances with you is much better than all existing and future aliens needing to war with you.

I'm surprised that more of the Xenos black market idea isn't explored. You could easily pass a lot of it off as battle trophies.

well thats because the "non battle field" stuff isn't fleshed out in much detail. I imagine a large chunk of the Ordos Xenos work is hunting down Xenos black markets.

That's true. I'd think the Ordo Xenos would like them as you can either make them into informants or use them to supply useful xenotech for the Ordo. Unless the market members want to get shot at least.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

A lot of them also formed alliances too. 5% of the aliens making nice alliances with you is much better than all existing and future aliens needing to war with you.

I'm surprised that more of the Xenos black market idea isn't explored. You could easily pass a lot of it off as battle trophies.

well thats because the "non battle field" stuff isn't fleshed out in much detail. I imagine a large chunk of the Ordos Xenos work is hunting down Xenos black markets.

That's true. I'd think the Ordo Xenos would like them as you can either make them into informants or use them to supply useful xenotech for the Ordo. Unless the market members want to get shot at least.

some I'm sure are turned into assists but in other cases it may not be all that useful;it depends whats being traded obviously. It doesn't have to be weapons or anything partiuclar, there are LOTS of examples of Tau subversion of an Imperial planet beginning with seemingly innocent trade. I'm sure Inqusitors on occasion have gotten involved in rooting it out on worlds before the Tau can get a foothold. but a lotta that trade could be I dunno.. Tau Toasters. apparently scavanaged xenostech from ruins etc is also pretty common, and thats really dangerous as a lot of the times the understanding of what it does is.... incomplete

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair the tolerance thing worked very well. The homicidal AI and a certain race making a Chaos God ruined things.

except likely in the aftermath of that a lotta the "friendly" xenos, turned on mankind. Also the senior most levels of the IoM Can and Do work with Xenos when needed. what they don't want is people trading in xeno artifacts because that can lead to trouble (such as the Tau using it to get a foothold)

A lot of them also formed alliances too. 5% of the aliens making nice alliances with you is much better than all existing and future aliens needing to war with you.

I'm surprised that more of the Xenos black market idea isn't explored. You could easily pass a lot of it off as battle trophies.

well thats because the "non battle field" stuff isn't fleshed out in much detail. I imagine a large chunk of the Ordos Xenos work is hunting down Xenos black markets.

That's true. I'd think the Ordo Xenos would like them as you can either make them into informants or use them to supply useful xenotech for the Ordo. Unless the market members want to get shot at least.

some I'm sure are turned into assists but in other cases it may not be all that useful;it depends whats being traded obviously. It doesn't have to be weapons or anything partiuclar, there are LOTS of examples of Tau subversion of an Imperial planet beginning with seemingly innocent trade. I'm sure Inqusitors on occasion have gotten involved in rooting it out on worlds before the Tau can get a foothold. but a lotta that trade could be I dunno.. Tau Toasters. apparently scavanaged xenostech from ruins etc is also pretty common, and thats really dangerous as a lot of the times the understanding of what it does is.... incomplete

The Ordo Xenos, defending you from exploding toasters made by evil aliens....

I'd love a story about scavenging ancient xenotech. It would be interesting to see how many are doomsday devices vs ancient hair dryers.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people - only genetic and cultral reconditioning makes them viable for tau commanders to order around. Most of the Tau client races are modified for a more 'Tau-like' (and compliant) fit. The Greater Good is always the Tau greater good and no one elses. I know the codex always paints things all rosy, but it's supposed to encourage players to believe in their faction - not present all the grimdark truth.

There are really only two kinds of alien in the Grimdark - those that want you as a minion and those that want you as a food source.

Sure, Kroot eat people. So? Humans can eat people, and space marines all definitely eat people, given they have a special power based off cannibalizing brains to gain information. We know Kroot work peacefully as mercenaries for the right price. While eating people is distasteful, it doesn't make them any less of an ally than if they smelled bad.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

The Eldar dooming themselves through their arrogance does not mean that anyone else should follow that example. It isn't at all pragmatic to foster fear and paranoia when faced with a cold and uncaring universe, it's short-sighted and counterproductive. I know this because we live in one and nothing good as come from turning people against each other. Believing that you must wage wars of extermination against everything not exactly like you for the sake of your survival is nazism, which can never be correct.


Never mind that daemons etc exist because the galaxy is filled with suffering which causes anguish and rage to be the greatest influences on the shared subconscious of all living things, and then comes bubbling up when people crack under the pressures of the society they've built. Chaos is literally our own inner daemons and they can't be fought by spreading hatred. They can only be tackled by emotional maturity, which the Imperium is institutionally incapable of fostering.

So, yes, it's the Imperium's own ideology that is its greatest threat.

I mean beyond the statement that our reality could be better the rest of this is gibberish. Our reality has no comparison to one where you have Egyptian terminators and fungoid monsters who grow from fighting, people who can mush brains with the snap of a finger and Daemons that can condemn your soul to eternal torture. You're trying to transpose our reality and morality on a universe that is incomprehensible from our viewpoint, where entities from another dimension can literally posses you like a flesh puppet. Our notions of correct or incorrect are formed by entirely different standards and far more mild history than that of the Imperium.

Daemons exist because of a lot of things, Chaos are not our inner Daemons, they are a reflection of the emotions of every psychically sentient race. They existed when humanity was friendlier (and even before humans existed seeing as Chaos wasn't born because of humanity) than it is now and they are capable of manipulating what happens in real-space. They literally aren't our inner Daemons, they just literally are Daemons. They existed before the Imperium and they will exist regardless of any reform the Imperium engages in, because being friendly with the few alien races that would allow an Imperial team up is still going to leave vast amounts of suffering to feed the Chaos Gods regardless. Tackled by emotional maturity is a plan on the level of the Cabal plot to 'defeat' Chaos. We have human Daemon Princes who long predate the Imperium and we have a few Daemon Princes who even predate humanity in the fluff, but aas the fluff is very Imperium-centric you hear little about the other races worshipping Chaos, but Be'lakor is a clear example.

Humanity did the tolerance thing during the Dark Age of Technology, it not working is exactly why the Emperor went for the slash and burn approach.

Simple laws of how unity works don't fall down because it's in a sci-fi/fantasy universe. It seems fairly simple that when people combine, they grow stronger. That's why a government is better than everyone doing their own thing. There's no evidence that the tolerance thing is what brought mankind low, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. Sure, when mankind became weak, many of its allies turned on it. But to say every single ally actively attacked it would be ridiculous, and clearly didn't happen. However, if mankind with its current "DEATH TO THE XENOS!" ideology faltered, then nothing changes. Mankind is still tore apart by aliens, but now even more, because what few aliens don't want to destroy us now have an active reason to. So yeah, not making new enemies seems to be a fair decision.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Chaos are not our inner Daemons, they are a reflection of the emotions of every psychically sentient race.

Yes, they are created by the emotional life of sapient life and are given shape by beliefs about demons. They don't have objective existence apart from mortals. There must be mortals to cause turmoil in the Sea of Souls for Chaos to be possible. That's why they're our collective inner demons. They are uncontrolled reflections of mortal impulses and emotions. They aren't the Christian version of demons. Mortals have raged, despaired, plotted and obsessed during their psychic awakenings, which is why the forces of Chaos exist. The point of Chaos is to be a hell of our own making! Otherwise they're just some random Metzenian Corrupting Force with no real hook to tie them to mortal failings. There's no tragedy, no possibility of redemption that goes ignored.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Tackled by emotional maturity is a plan on the level of the Cabal plot to 'defeat' Chaos. We have human Daemon Princes who long predate the Imperium and we have a few Daemon Princes who even predate humanity in the fluff, but aas the fluff is very Imperium-centric you hear little about the other races worshipping Chaos, but Be'lakor is a clear example.

And those happened long before humanity began to seriously awaken as a psychic species.


You are missing the entire tragic point of the Imperium, which is that it chooses to not fulfill its own potential. It chooses to be cruel, to stunt its society, to turn away from facing the truth of the universe in favour of the officially sanctioned version of events carefully tailored to sustain the unsustainable. An Imperium that is justified in doing this is unacceptable because then all 40K would be is fascist propaganda. There would be no black humour, no trace of the countercultural spirit left. There'd just be boring fashy nonsense.

I wouldn't say they choose it. You'd need a group of a lot of people with a lot of power and for all their opponents to be dealt with to get any change done so they're essentially locked in to their current lifestyle.

I'd describe one of the tragic points as being that humanities supposed saviour who everyone is taught protects and guides them is in fact one of the largest causes of their nightmarish situation. But he's still seen as the saviour.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


Simple laws of how unity works don't fall down because it's in a sci-fi/fantasy universe. It seems fairly simple that when people combine, they grow stronger. That's why a government is better than everyone doing their own thing. There's no evidence that the tolerance thing is what brought mankind low, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. Sure, when mankind became weak, many of its allies turned on it. But to say every single ally actively attacked it would be ridiculous, and clearly didn't happen. However, if mankind with its current "DEATH TO THE XENOS!" ideology faltered, then nothing changes. Mankind is still tore apart by aliens, but now even more, because what few aliens don't want to destroy us now have an active reason to. So yeah, not making new enemies seems to be a fair decision.

The opposite seems to be true? How, all the references to Old Night are about humanity under siege and lone worlds surviving the onslaught while many other didn't. So far the HH books have given us one example of humans living with aliens, no other mentions to friendly aliens surviving. The idea behind the Great Crusade was "wipe aliens out now, don't have them around when we might be weak later". This became official policy and dogma to the Imperium 10k years down the line, but they don't pursue it to the point of self harm, they leave the less hostile ones alone because they don't have the strength. Besides, friendly aliens are few and far in between. The whole death to xenos and psykers sthick is meant to prevent Old Night 2.0 but lets see where Guilleman goes with this, the unofficial Eldar alliance might get more official because you never know with GW now.

I mean from an objective point of view from where we're sitting what you say would make sense. But what does make sense in the Imperium really? From an in universe perspective its seen as the most rational approach.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Chaos are not our inner Daemons, they are a reflection of the emotions of every psychically sentient race.

Yes, they are created by the emotional life of sapient life and are given shape by beliefs about demons. They don't have objective existence apart from mortals. There must be mortals to cause turmoil in the Sea of Souls for Chaos to be possible. That's why they're our collective inner demons. They are uncontrolled reflections of mortal impulses and emotions. They aren't the Christian version of demons. Mortals have raged, despaired, plotted and obsessed during their psychic awakenings, which is why the forces of Chaos exist. The point of Chaos is to be a hell of our own making! Otherwise they're just some random Metzenian Corrupting Force with no real hook to tie them to mortal failings. There's no tragedy, no possibility of redemption that goes ignored.

Yet when you say that the Imperium can handwave the danger of Chaos away with some 'emotional maturity' that completely ignores the nature of Chaos and the wider situaton that feeds them. As I said the Chaos Gods have been around before humanity. Be'Lakor has been going around enslaving mortal empires since the dawn of time. A lot of what feeds the Chaos Gods is subconcious emotions such as hope, grief or waging war, unless by emotional maturity you mean emotionless automatons I don't know how this will get anywhere. Plus the part where Chaos only needs one weak psyker that can doom a planet.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Tackled by emotional maturity is a plan on the level of the Cabal plot to 'defeat' Chaos. We have human Daemon Princes who long predate the Imperium and we have a few Daemon Princes who even predate humanity in the fluff, but aas the fluff is very Imperium-centric you hear little about the other races worshipping Chaos, but Be'lakor is a clear example.

And those happened long before humanity began to seriously awaken as a psychic species.


You are missing the entire tragic point of the Imperium, which is that it chooses to not fulfill its own potential. It chooses to be cruel, to stunt its society, to turn away from facing the truth of the universe in favour of the officially sanctioned version of events carefully tailored to sustain the unsustainable. An Imperium that is justified in doing this is unacceptable because then all 40K would be is fascist propaganda. There would be no black humour, no trace of the countercultural spirit left. There'd just be boring fashy nonsense.

Exactly, which means that humanity and certainly the Imperium isn't the only force feeding Chaos. Even if you turned the Imperium into robots the Chaos Gods would still be around.

What tragic point? That was never the point of 40K. 40K was meant as satire towards religion, totalitarianism and dogma. Not some bright and unrealized future, but a harsh death in a cold and uncaring universe in a pointless struggle. And yes GW lost that counterculture because few real life jokes slip in nowadays. 40K fluff is now basically self contained from the outside world if not from stealing from other work, from the 90's onward it took itself increasingly serious. You are projecting an awful lot of what was never supposed to be there. I mean it sounds like you don't enjoy 40K at all when you call it fascistic nonsense.

That bright future for humanity is being portrayed as what the Emperor would have wanted, and in our world he would still be considered a genocidal sociopath. Its own potential still more horrible than we in our reality would put up with. That is the GW line even with Guilleman, that the Imperium has diverged from what the Emperor would have wanted. That is portrayed as the tragic point of the Imperium, not some emotionless alien team up.

 ChargerIIC wrote:


have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people

So do Space Marines

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


Simple laws of how unity works don't fall down because it's in a sci-fi/fantasy universe. It seems fairly simple that when people combine, they grow stronger. That's why a government is better than everyone doing their own thing. There's no evidence that the tolerance thing is what brought mankind low, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. Sure, when mankind became weak, many of its allies turned on it. But to say every single ally actively attacked it would be ridiculous, and clearly didn't happen. However, if mankind with its current "DEATH TO THE XENOS!" ideology faltered, then nothing changes. Mankind is still tore apart by aliens, but now even more, because what few aliens don't want to destroy us now have an active reason to. So yeah, not making new enemies seems to be a fair decision.

The opposite seems to be true? How, all the references to Old Night are about humanity under siege and lone worlds surviving the onslaught while many other didn't. So far the HH books have given us one example of humans living with aliens, no other mentions to friendly aliens surviving. The idea behind the Great Crusade was "wipe aliens out now, don't have them around when we might be weak later". This became official policy and dogma to the Imperium 10k years down the line, but they don't pursue it to the point of self harm, they leave the less hostile ones alone because they don't have the strength. Besides, friendly aliens are few and far in between. The whole death to xenos and psykers sthick is meant to prevent Old Night 2.0 but lets see where Guilleman goes with this, the unofficial Eldar alliance might get more official because you never know with GW now.

Interex and Diasporex both had humans and aliens living together. Besides, the galaxy is so big that making broad sweeping statements like "imperials law's harshly and without a fault enforced on every imperial World" just don't hold onto scrutiny. In one place Day of the Feast of the Emperor Acsension is celebrated by dragging alien corpses through cheering crowds, while in another Arbites can only impotently glare at alien merchants and take silent note on the faces of their customers. On a third World aliens beg for a mere change to slave in the mines, and on a fourth humiliated Astartes bring imperial tribute to an empire that Imperium can't afford to fight for the moment, muttering "Soon" under their breath. Law maybe the law, but it doesn't mean that Imperium has power, or the care, to enforce it on all its member worlds, since orthodoxy doesnt instatly translate to orthopraxy.

40k has room for anything and everything, while still holding on to its core as a reversal of the usual Star Trekky scifi, where, instead of the better part of human character allowing us to fix our problems and to find common ground with everyone else, no matter how different they may be, it is the worst aspects of humanity that come to rule, not only us but everyone else too, with greed fear hate and ignorance being what's common with all peoples, creating a self perpetuating circle of misery without an end.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


Simple laws of how unity works don't fall down because it's in a sci-fi/fantasy universe. It seems fairly simple that when people combine, they grow stronger. That's why a government is better than everyone doing their own thing. There's no evidence that the tolerance thing is what brought mankind low, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. Sure, when mankind became weak, many of its allies turned on it. But to say every single ally actively attacked it would be ridiculous, and clearly didn't happen. However, if mankind with its current "DEATH TO THE XENOS!" ideology faltered, then nothing changes. Mankind is still tore apart by aliens, but now even more, because what few aliens don't want to destroy us now have an active reason to. So yeah, not making new enemies seems to be a fair decision.

The opposite seems to be true? How, all the references to Old Night are about humanity under siege and lone worlds surviving the onslaught while many other didn't. So far the HH books have given us one example of humans living with aliens, no other mentions to friendly aliens surviving. The idea behind the Great Crusade was "wipe aliens out now, don't have them around when we might be weak later". This became official policy and dogma to the Imperium 10k years down the line, but they don't pursue it to the point of self harm, they leave the less hostile ones alone because they don't have the strength. Besides, friendly aliens are few and far in between. The whole death to xenos and psykers sthick is meant to prevent Old Night 2.0 but lets see where Guilleman goes with this, the unofficial Eldar alliance might get more official because you never know with GW now.

Interex and Diasporex both had humans and aliens living together. Besides, the galaxy is so big that making broad sweeping statements like "imperials law's harshly and without a fault enforced on every imperial World" just don't hold onto scrutiny. In one place Day of the Feast of the Emperor Acsension is celebrated by dragging alien corpses through cheering crowds, while in another Arbites can only impotently glare at alien merchants and take silent note on the faces of their customers. On a third World aliens beg for a mere change to slave in the mines, and on a fourth humiliated Astartes bring imperial tribute to an empire that Imperium can't afford to fight for the moment, muttering "Soon" under their breath. Law maybe the law, but it doesn't mean that Imperium has power, or the care, to enforce it on all its member worlds, since orthodoxy doesnt instatly translate to orthopraxy.

40k has room for anything and everything, while still holding on to its core as a reversal of the usual Star Trekky scifi, where, instead of the better part of human character allowing us to fix our problems and to find common ground with everyone else, no matter how different they may be, it is the worst aspects of humanity that come to rule, not only us but everyone else too, with greed fear hate and ignorance being what's common with all peoples, creating a self perpetuating circle of misery without an end.

Again, as far as I'm aware the Interex were only human. Hence Horus going over to negotiate. The only thin that makes them look alien is their weird technology. I don't think its stated anywhere in the first HH books that the Interex were aliens amd humans? The Diasporex is true, but its the only mention we have gotten.

Sure, certain worlds can deviate and we know it happens. But those are individuals worlds in opposition to Imperial law, not the Imperium as a whole doing that, which is mainly where this debate has been going. Do Imperial worlds peacefully interact with aliens? Yes. Does the Imperium as a whole peacefully interact with aliens? No, they best they used to get was a grudging "I don't have time to exterminate you right now." This might all be subject to change. The Imperium crushes some while overlooking other planets for breaking the law.

40K does has room for everything true. But making the Imperium as a whole more tolerant and less dogmatic is undermining what the Imperium is about in 40K. It would line up better with our personal beliefs, but it would also make 40K more generic.

IIRC hte Interax did have aliuens living along side them but they where basicly a servitor race.

Huh, I thought the Interex had conquered the Kinebrach(?) and that is how they acquired their technology like the anathame but they didn't actually live together on the same planet. I will take another look at the books because it seems my memory is fuzzy on the Interex. But that's still only two races on the entire GC.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Sure, certain worlds can deviate and we know it happens. But those are individuals worlds in opposition to Imperial law, not the Imperium as a whole doing that, which is mainly where this debate has been going. Do Imperial worlds peacefully interact with aliens? Yes. Does the Imperium as a whole peacefully interact with aliens? No, they best they used to get was a grudging "I don't have time to exterminate you right now." This might all be subject to change. The Imperium crushes some while overlooking other planets for breaking the law.

40K does has room for everything true. But making the Imperium as a whole more tolerant and less dogmatic is undermining what the Imperium is about in 40K. It would line up better with our personal beliefs, but it would also make 40K more generic.

I would never wish the Imperiums law or policies more tolerant, it's part of its twisted charm. But to what extent can we even talk about Imperium in a same way as we do of modern nation state? One can't just draw a few lines on the map of the galaxy and say " There, thats the Imperium". GC followed on the heels of previous human settlement and only where it could travel in the Warp, making it map of the Imperium look more like a cobweb(I'd highly suggest finding the FWs Horus Heresy 1 book, which has a map of astropath communication network, which i'd argue, is the truest map of the Imperium we have seen to date"), with the lore in the rulebooks emphasising how more and more spread thin Imperium is getting. It's really more like feudal empire or a loose federation, made of countless member states, each functioning differently, mostly held together by faith, importance of which could be emphasised more in my opinion, since, in the medieval Europe, which Imperiums is a futuristic version of, faith was REALLY important. I mean, we don't even see the Ecclesiarchy selling indulgances, a practice that fits perfectly to 40k! I mean talking about our modern values affecting 40ks supposed grimdark Dark Ageness, theres something thats missing, alongside with people treating it like a singular nation state.

It's not really the Imperium in general that going on and on about, but that its member states are prone to hypocrisy, greed, short sightedness and in general are staring at their own bellies, with the grimdarkness of the whole thing being, that no matter what course of action Imperium takes each time, be it strict or lenient, it will eventually lead to it crumbling a bit yeat again, which slowly add up.

I'd also like to see more stories that aren't IG and/or SM fighting a random enemy of the day or some Inquisitions blokes fighting random cultists, I mean, those stories can be good, but there are just so many of them. I'd rather see something different, like a War of the Roses-style struggle between imperial worlds, or a Cold War paranoia thriller style story between imperial and non-imperial nations, or something, maybe the Odyssey, anything… as long as it keeps the general tone and doesn't go all Warhammer Adventures.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Sure, certain worlds can deviate and we know it happens. But those are individuals worlds in opposition to Imperial law, not the Imperium as a whole doing that, which is mainly where this debate has been going. Do Imperial worlds peacefully interact with aliens? Yes. Does the Imperium as a whole peacefully interact with aliens? No, they best they used to get was a grudging "I don't have time to exterminate you right now." This might all be subject to change. The Imperium crushes some while overlooking other planets for breaking the law.

40K does has room for everything true. But making the Imperium as a whole more tolerant and less dogmatic is undermining what the Imperium is about in 40K. It would line up better with our personal beliefs, but it would also make 40K more generic.

I would never wish the Imperiums law or policies more tolerant, it's part of its twisted charm. But to what extent can we even talk about Imperium in a same way as we do of modern nation state? One can't just draw a few lines on the map of the galaxy and say " There, thats the Imperium". GC followed on the heels of previous human settlement and only where it could travel in the Warp, making it map of the Imperium look more like a cobweb(I'd highly suggest finding the FWs Horus Heresy 1 book, which has a map of astropath communication network, which i'd argue, is the truest map of the Imperium we have seen to date"), with the lore in the rulebooks emphasising how more and more spread thin Imperium is getting. It's really more like feudal empire or a loose federation, made of countless member states, each functioning differently, mostly held together by faith, importance of which could be emphasised more in my opinion, since, in the medieval Europe, which Imperiums is a futuristic version of, faith was REALLY important. I mean, we don't even see the Ecclesiarchy selling indulgances, a practice that fits perfectly to 40k! I mean talking about our modern values affecting 40ks supposed grimdark Dark Ageness, theres something thats missing, alongside with people treating it like a singular nation state.

It's not really the Imperium in general that going on and on about, but that its member states are prone to hypocrisy, greed, short sightedness and in general are staring at their own bellies, with the grimdarkness of the whole thing being, that no matter what course of action Imperium takes each time, be it strict or lenient, it will eventually lead to it crumbling a bit yeat again, which slowly add up.

I'd also like to see more stories that aren't IG and/or SM fighting a random enemy of the day or some Inquisitions blokes fighting random cultists, I mean, those stories can be good, but there are just so many of them. I'd rather see something different, like a War of the Roses-style struggle between imperial worlds, or a Cold War paranoia thriller style story between imperial and non-imperial nations, or something, maybe the Odyssey, anything… as long as it keeps the general tone and doesn't go all Warhammer Adventures.

No, but Rosebuddy seemingly argued that.

I mean we can't talk about the Imperium as a modern state or according to modern morals because what is real in 40K is absolute bonkers. We have had some dark pages in history and that's just human versus human without all the nightmarish elements in the background. I saw the map, but its been emphasized for a long time as little islands with vast unexplored wilderness in between. That's a really cool part of the fluff, the idea that entire empires can exist but the Imperium just hasn't noticed them in between two worlds of theirs. I think imperial federation is more apt than feudal empire since the Imperium has a lot of institutions that don't fit feudalism all that well, especially the Imperial Guard and Navy. As for faith, GW already creates the Middle Ages impression very well with the in universe events around the Ecclesiarchy. As for indulgences, the SoB 2nd edition codex mention that you can pay for forgiveness (or die for the Emperor of course):

SoB codex page 38 2nd edition
Imperial citizens can commit a multitude of sins, ranging from fairly minor infractions like making the wrong response to a hymnal, to heresy and blasphemy. The Imperial Creed teaches that a person's soul will either join the Emperor or be consumed by Chaos; every wrong commits the double sin of weakening the Emperor and strengthening Chaos. There are many degrees of penitence, such as paying a fine, performing good deeds, exclusion from certain masses and ceremonies and so on. For more extreme sins, the only way to purify the soul is to undertake a long an dangerous pilgrimage, flagellation and, in the extreme cases, death. For the most serious offences, there can be no mercy, regardless of status, wealth or breeding.

Minor offences can be repaid in a number of different ways. For example, a worshipper can join the Frateris Militia and purify their soul by fighting against the enemies of mankind. The less martially-minded may be allowed to clean the shrine and attend to the clergy. A hefty contribution to the shrine may procure forgiveness, and the Ecclesiarchy also accepts penitent fines in the form of lifestock, land, trade goods and other valuable commodities. Informing on the sins of others is another popular method of penitence. The greater the act performed in the Emperor's name, the more forgiveness is afforded by the Ecclesiarchy.

The last part just sounds like an invitation to get the moneybags to cough up the dough.

Yes, the political struggle behind the scenes is supposed to be massive and destructive, but we only get glimpses. Sadly the books are especially now mostly written to sell the figures, instead of exploring more of the universe that isn't on the receiving end of a bolter. But GW can't sell you humans fighting humans, it can sell you IG fighting (C)SM or Orks.