The Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, since he talked with Oll Persson (one of the ancient Perpetuals) outside of Nineveh on Old Earth. He is probably human. But who could know the truth but the Emperor? And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth [u]
Oll takes out his compass, and checks the bearing as best he can. Thrascias. It still seems to be Thrascias. That used to be the word for the wind from the north-north-west, before the cardinal points of the compass rose were co-opted for other purposes and given more esoteric meanings. Thrascias. That's what the Grekans called it. That's what they called it when he sailed back across the sun-kissed waters to Thessaly in Iason's crew, with a witch and a sheep-skin to show for their efforts. The Romanii, they called it Circius. Down in the oardecks of the galleys, he hadn't much cared about the names of the winds they were rowing against. The Franks called it Nordvuestroni. - Know No Fear, pages 360 and 361.
You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
This is most certainly ON topic in the lore thread titled: 'Background' so kinda doesn't belong here. This is not a criticism but you would definitely get more traction in the background forum.
What is the point of your post? You've clearly done you research here which is awesome. Are you asking, What is the emperor?
Presumably Dark Age of Techology tech so basically idea that Emperor would be product from Dark Age of Technology age of 40k(was it around 20k?). So either artificially built life form or human that was artificially boosted by technology. At least that's what I thought reading it
BrianDavion wrote: You know there is a 40k lore subforum right? not trying to be a dick just not sure you know this seeing as you've posted at least 2 lore focused posts here
I learned that the General discussion is a place to post stuff that would be off-topic in other forums, and this looks to be the place to post it. But thanks.
This is most certainly ON topic in the lore thread titled: 'Background' so kinda doesn't belong here. This is not a criticism but you would definitely get more traction in the background forum.
What is the point of your post? You've clearly done you research here which is awesome. Are you asking, What is the emperor?
What is DAOT tech?
Alright. I'm new here and getting used to it, but this seemed to be the right place.
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want them to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
He is not lying. Dan Abnett's Perpetual Oll Persson alone proves it. Your'e ignoring the lore. And the Perpetuals are actually well-written.
There's a fun theory in the lore subthread about the Emperor being an Old One.
I also posted a counter-theory that the Emperor is actually Morag-Hai, but that's really just a fun theory that would explain things, but is almost certainly not wrong - in the same vein as "everyone you work with goes out for drinks on Friday, but they all agree not to tell you" - could be true, but probably isn't.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators. And the Perpetuals are well-written. I read the books with them.
What the hell are you babbling on about? The Perpetuals are not that at all. They are "official" as everything else is. By that logic, everything is the same. I know there is no such thing as canon, but that's not the point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: There's a fun theory in the lore subthread about the Emperor being an Old One.
I also posted a counter-theory that the Emperor is actually Morag-Hai, but that's really just a fun theory that would explain things, but is almost certainly not wrong - in the same vein as "everyone you work with goes out for drinks on Friday, but they all agree not to tell you" - could be true, but probably isn't.
If the Emperor is a Perpetual (as he said to Perpetual Oll Persson) then he is not an Old One. And we have his shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
What lore says that only humans can be Perpetuals (actual question)?
As for the shaman origin story, that could be a ruse - either to eliminate competition or witnesses as the Emperor arose, or to trick them into giving the Old One or Morag Hai all their power.
Bharring wrote: What lore says that only humans can be Perpetuals (actual question)?
As for the shaman origin story, that could be a ruse - either to eliminate competition or witnesses as the Emperor arose, or to trick them into giving the Old One or Morag Hai all their power.
Its not a ruse. But its lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
Everything is equally true.
Ok, this is a bit long, but its Aaron Dembski-Bowden reply for the criticisms he got for his portrayal of Emps in 'Master of Mankind'
Spoiler:
That's true, and I definitely wanted to bring out a better understanding of his vision and what he was up against, but that's also lore I'd wager anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting already had a handle on to some degree, whether explicitly or not. What I wanted to avoid was too much "new" stuff. You have to put in something new, and thankfully what little newness I do introduce in my work is seemingly well-regarded, but I've always said our job (as I see it) is to illustrate the setting and show what it's like to live there, not to set it in stone. As much as the fandom adores "advancing the storyline", it's not something that interests me, by and large. I try my best to show things from the perspectives of characters on the ground level, bring a few perceptions of the setting through the lens of my own imagination and the insight I'm lucky enough to get endlessly talking about the setting with its creators and inheritors, and then get out. Most of my books are, to some extent, not definitive. They're about Some Guy, not the entire faction.
Grimaldus in Helsreach has no bond to the wider war on Armageddon and hates that he's been left behind by the Black Templars, but he's (hopefully) a good example of what it feels like to be a Black Templar, and to think like one, and - crucially - what it feels like to be a human around them. Talos and the other characters of First Claw spend a trilogy unable to decide what the Night Lords Legion really was, and each of them remembers their glory days differently. I didn't want to speak for the whole Legion. Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift is a largely generic Grey Knight present in dire circumstances. HH-wise, I didn't want to show all of the Word Bearers and base a book around the expectations of Kor Phaeron, Lorgar, and Erebus, so I focused on the Serrated Sun in the middle of the changes taking place across the galaxy. Savage Weapons is largely about Corswain, not about Curze and the Lion. The Master of Mankind is about Ra, Zephon, Jaya, and Land in the heart of the Emperor's plans for the species, not about the Emperor himself. As much as I wrote about Angron and Lorgar, they get significantly less in-their-heads screen time than most other primarchs in most other books.
It's harder to do that with the Heresy, but - again - I do my best to present individual experiences and mindsets in characters like Khârn, Argel Tal, and Ra, rather than definitive looks at the entire Chapter/Legion/faction and setting its events in stone. I try to present a feel for how it is to live inside that culture and be part of the experiences they go through; it's about immersion into the Chapter or Legion, presenting them as believable and real, not definitively saying "All of Chapter X are like Y." So: I'm reluctant to talk about TMoM and the Emperor's perception in that book in any real detail, partly because the book is still new and there's a lot individual readers would do better discovering for themselves without my thoughts in public, and partly because everything I'd say is ultimately in the book. Anything I say will be taken out of context or weaponised one way or another somewhere, and used in a way that makes me sigh, cringe, or a dramatic melange of both that shall hereafter be called the sigh-cringe. (Plus, most of all, I have faith in readers. They don't need me defining anything, even if it might be interesting for a few peeps.)
So, I'll just say this. The Master of Mankind is entirely from the perspectives of people that meet the Emperor in pretty specific circumstances. There are, obviously, other circumstances to come. Nothing in it is definitive, even less so than my usual work. Any definitive statement you can make about how the Emperor sees something or does something is almost always contradicted in the book itself. That's not an escape clause or an excuse. It's the point. Writing him definitively would've been the easiest and most disappointing thing in the world. (And on that note, remember, everyone views 40K differently. What Person X is absolutely certain is the truth of the Emperor and the best way to present him would be laughed off by Persons A, B, and C. The flip side to that is that not every perspective is founded in fact or understanding. The earliest "I've not read this yet, but..." criticisms and misunderstandings of TMoM in, ah, certain reddit/chan-style locations was regarded by GW IP folks as, I quote: "These angry people seem to be beholden to a version of 40K that has never existed...") But in all seriousness, I don't want to delve too deeply into explaining the ways the Emperor's contradictions matter or don't matter. They're there, and they're definitely formative - totally agree - if not exactly definitive. With the Emperor, a lot of interaction is about getting out what you put in. You get what you give. Your perceptions and expectations are reflected back on you because that's how the human brain perceives everything (a fact that cannot be overstated; the science behind it is fascinating and all-important), especially when you're talking about someone who exists on that plane of power. At one point the Emperor makes mention of the notion that he's not even speaking, that being near to him allows the conveyance of meaning through psychic osmosis, and communication telepathically. He's not even talking. It's raw understanding filtering through a mind, or just the way the mortal mind comprehends the aura of what the Emperor intends, or, or, or... That's what I mean. TMoM is littered with that stuff. Does he only address the primarchs by number instead of name? Some characters will swear he does that, and doesn't that just perfectly match their perspectives of the primarchs as either emotionally-compromised "too-human" things that think they're sons (Ra), or genetic masterworks that have become galaxy-damning screw-ups that have literally let the galaxy burn and brought the Imperium to its knees, leading people to be exiled from their homeworlds (Land). Do you think Sanguinius will agree? Or care that's what mortals think? The Emperor's portrayal on that isn't even consistent between Ra and Diocletian, two of his Custodians - and on PAGE ONE, the only time he interacts with a primarch himself, and the one and only thing he says to Magnus the Red is...? "Magnus."
Like... that's a pretty strong indication that the interactions which follow are playing by different rules. Ra sees the Warlord of Humanity, just a man, but a great mean, weary and defiant, burdened by responsibility. Daemons see their annihilation, and go insane in his presence. One of the Knights, as they're marching through the Throne Room, is caught in religious rapture, unable to do anything but stare at the glorious halo of the Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne. One of the Sisters of Silence, in the same room, literally just sees a man in a chair. Another character, not Imperial, asks a Custodian if the Emperor even breathes. She believes he's a weapon left out of its box from the Dark Age of Technology. (With thanks to Alan Bligh for that one, he adores that theory.) So I don't think it's exactly a spoiler to say that if and when I get to write a character like Sanguinius in the Emperor's presence, or Malcador, they'd have entirely different experiences than Ra and Land. I'd loved to have had that in TMoM, but as much as it would've given wider context, these aren't rulebooks and essays; it would've been self-indulgent for the sake of 'hoping people get it', and cheapened the story being told, which was ultimately in a very narrow and confined set of circumstances. Breaking out of that narrative would be offering a sense of scope and freedom I was specifically trying to avoid in a claustrophobic siege story. Because theme and atmosphere is a thing.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: If all lore is equal then Ollaius Pius saying that the Emps is a Perpetual human is no more correct than other lore that says otherwise.
The Horus Heresy novels show that with Dan Abnett' Perpetual Oll Persson. And where does it say otherwise? The story with the old Pius Guardsman? Not good. Its not contradicted by anything except the lore about the old Pius Guardsman. And his name Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson.
Everything is equally true.
Ok, this is a bit long, but its Aaron Dembski-Bowden reply for the criticisms he got for his portrayal of Emps in 'Master of Mankind'
Spoiler:
That's true, and I definitely wanted to bring out a better understanding of his vision and what he was up against, but that's also lore I'd wager anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting already had a handle on to some degree, whether explicitly or not. What I wanted to avoid was too much "new" stuff. You have to put in something new, and thankfully what little newness I do introduce in my work is seemingly well-regarded, but I've always said our job (as I see it) is to illustrate the setting and show what it's like to live there, not to set it in stone. As much as the fandom adores "advancing the storyline", it's not something that interests me, by and large. I try my best to show things from the perspectives of characters on the ground level, bring a few perceptions of the setting through the lens of my own imagination and the insight I'm lucky enough to get endlessly talking about the setting with its creators and inheritors, and then get out. Most of my books are, to some extent, not definitive. They're about Some Guy, not the entire faction.
Grimaldus in Helsreach has no bond to the wider war on Armageddon and hates that he's been left behind by the Black Templars, but he's (hopefully) a good example of what it feels like to be a Black Templar, and to think like one, and - crucially - what it feels like to be a human around them. Talos and the other characters of First Claw spend a trilogy unable to decide what the Night Lords Legion really was, and each of them remembers their glory days differently. I didn't want to speak for the whole Legion. Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift is a largely generic Grey Knight present in dire circumstances. HH-wise, I didn't want to show all of the Word Bearers and base a book around the expectations of Kor Phaeron, Lorgar, and Erebus, so I focused on the Serrated Sun in the middle of the changes taking place across the galaxy. Savage Weapons is largely about Corswain, not about Curze and the Lion. The Master of Mankind is about Ra, Zephon, Jaya, and Land in the heart of the Emperor's plans for the species, not about the Emperor himself. As much as I wrote about Angron and Lorgar, they get significantly less in-their-heads screen time than most other primarchs in most other books.
It's harder to do that with the Heresy, but - again - I do my best to present individual experiences and mindsets in characters like Khârn, Argel Tal, and Ra, rather than definitive looks at the entire Chapter/Legion/faction and setting its events in stone. I try to present a feel for how it is to live inside that culture and be part of the experiences they go through; it's about immersion into the Chapter or Legion, presenting them as believable and real, not definitively saying "All of Chapter X are like Y." So: I'm reluctant to talk about TMoM and the Emperor's perception in that book in any real detail, partly because the book is still new and there's a lot individual readers would do better discovering for themselves without my thoughts in public, and partly because everything I'd say is ultimately in the book. Anything I say will be taken out of context or weaponised one way or another somewhere, and used in a way that makes me sigh, cringe, or a dramatic melange of both that shall hereafter be called the sigh-cringe. (Plus, most of all, I have faith in readers. They don't need me defining anything, even if it might be interesting for a few peeps.)
So, I'll just say this. The Master of Mankind is entirely from the perspectives of people that meet the Emperor in pretty specific circumstances. There are, obviously, other circumstances to come. Nothing in it is definitive, even less so than my usual work. Any definitive statement you can make about how the Emperor sees something or does something is almost always contradicted in the book itself. That's not an escape clause or an excuse. It's the point. Writing him definitively would've been the easiest and most disappointing thing in the world. (And on that note, remember, everyone views 40K differently. What Person X is absolutely certain is the truth of the Emperor and the best way to present him would be laughed off by Persons A, B, and C. The flip side to that is that not every perspective is founded in fact or understanding. The earliest "I've not read this yet, but..." criticisms and misunderstandings of TMoM in, ah, certain reddit/chan-style locations was regarded by GW IP folks as, I quote: "These angry people seem to be beholden to a version of 40K that has never existed...") But in all seriousness, I don't want to delve too deeply into explaining the ways the Emperor's contradictions matter or don't matter. They're there, and they're definitely formative - totally agree - if not exactly definitive. With the Emperor, a lot of interaction is about getting out what you put in. You get what you give. Your perceptions and expectations are reflected back on you because that's how the human brain perceives everything (a fact that cannot be overstated; the science behind it is fascinating and all-important), especially when you're talking about someone who exists on that plane of power. At one point the Emperor makes mention of the notion that he's not even speaking, that being near to him allows the conveyance of meaning through psychic osmosis, and communication telepathically. He's not even talking. It's raw understanding filtering through a mind, or just the way the mortal mind comprehends the aura of what the Emperor intends, or, or, or... That's what I mean. TMoM is littered with that stuff. Does he only address the primarchs by number instead of name? Some characters will swear he does that, and doesn't that just perfectly match their perspectives of the primarchs as either emotionally-compromised "too-human" things that think they're sons (Ra), or genetic masterworks that have become galaxy-damning screw-ups that have literally let the galaxy burn and brought the Imperium to its knees, leading people to be exiled from their homeworlds (Land). Do you think Sanguinius will agree? Or care that's what mortals think? The Emperor's portrayal on that isn't even consistent between Ra and Diocletian, two of his Custodians - and on PAGE ONE, the only time he interacts with a primarch himself, and the one and only thing he says to Magnus the Red is...? "Magnus."
Like... that's a pretty strong indication that the interactions which follow are playing by different rules. Ra sees the Warlord of Humanity, just a man, but a great mean, weary and defiant, burdened by responsibility. Daemons see their annihilation, and go insane in his presence. One of the Knights, as they're marching through the Throne Room, is caught in religious rapture, unable to do anything but stare at the glorious halo of the Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne. One of the Sisters of Silence, in the same room, literally just sees a man in a chair. Another character, not Imperial, asks a Custodian if the Emperor even breathes. She believes he's a weapon left out of its box from the Dark Age of Technology. (With thanks to Alan Bligh for that one, he adores that theory.) So I don't think it's exactly a spoiler to say that if and when I get to write a character like Sanguinius in the Emperor's presence, or Malcador, they'd have entirely different experiences than Ra and Land. I'd loved to have had that in TMoM, but as much as it would've given wider context, these aren't rulebooks and essays; it would've been self-indulgent for the sake of 'hoping people get it', and cheapened the story being told, which was ultimately in a very narrow and confined set of circumstances. Breaking out of that narrative would be offering a sense of scope and freedom I was specifically trying to avoid in a claustrophobic siege story. Because theme and atmosphere is a thing.
TL: DR GW leaves Emperors origin a mystery.
I talked with ADB on Reddit, and he said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. Plus, the shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it is there.
And you realize that character in Master of Mankind did know the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant? When you look at the Emperor, you see what he wants you to see. He is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. And she was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff like that.
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.
That's the whole point of 40k, so we can interpret the setting as we wish. But taking the books at face value, the Perpetuals prove it.
And what Zo about the Emperor in Master of Mankind is about as reliable as what Erebus said about the Emperor in False Gods (about him wanting to be a God). She was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
They're not well written. Black Library books generally aren't. They're at the best mediocre books. They're also full of utterly stupid nonsense, and often contradict the studio lore and each other. Then again, recently the studio fluff has gone to hell in a handbasked too, so I really don't care that much anymore.
But the bottom line is that 40K lore is not some coherent whole. It is just collection of stories which often contradict eac hother. Sure, certain basic facts are the same, but it is really not a single continuity. Trying to reconcile it all is like trying to reconcile Nolan's Batman Films, Burton's Batman films, the Gotham TV show and the Batman comics.
That's alright, but they prove my point about the Emperor, and are just as much as part of the lore as anything else. The Perpetuals are well-written after I read the Horus Heresy books.
They're not well written. Black Library books generally aren't. They're at the best mediocre books. They're also full of utterly stupid nonsense, and often contradict the studio lore and each other. Then again, recently the studio fluff has gone to hell in a handbasked too, so I really don't care that much anymore.
But the bottom line is that 40K lore is not some coherent whole. It is just collection of stories which often contradict eac hother. Sure, certain basic facts are the same, but it is really not a single continuity. Trying to reconcile it all is like trying to reconcile Nolan's Batman Films, Burton's Batman films, the Gotham TV show and the Batman comics.
There are many people have read the books that disagree with you. My friend (Gankom) on Reddit agrees. Its your opinion they aren't.
So, your headcanon is that the lore should be taken at face value, fine - but, trying to argue that that's somehow more correct than other people view is wrong. No interpretations is wrong.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
Yep, this.
It not bad taste. Its about opinions.
Have Games Workshop won literary awards?
Mortal Pius was only in old fluff.
There is no such thing as canon in 40k, but the Perpetuals are there.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: So, your headcanon is that the lore should be taken at face value, fine - but, trying to argue that that's somehow more correct than other people view is wrong. No interpretations is wrong.
There for, Ollanius the Pius can be ordinary human or he maybe a Perpetual named Oll Persson - neither is more or less correct, since all lore is equal and only thing that matters is what each of us chooses to believe in.
I never said it should be taken at face value, I'm saying there IF we do, then the Perpetuals prove it.
You all are crazy, he dead and there is no link to his mind and stoping chaos at all. Its all a lie to keep you fighting! And fighting is what is making the chaotic storms, why? b.c they are using it for themselves to make more money and become more powerful!
Voltstagge on reddit said this about Perpetual Oll Persson.
Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.
That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.
When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.
Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.
And stop taking what that woman in Master of Mankind said about the Emperor being DAOT tech seriously. She was an enemy of the Emperor (more or less the definition of an unreliable source, just as Erebus) having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that. She was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
ADB on reddit said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT tech after I talked with him.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: This is from a subreddit Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
Or 50k years worth of memories were already fracturing.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: This is from a subredditAs for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
I think even they know that. Which is why theyve mostly been killed off.
But thats not to say he wasnt gene enhanced back in the doat. Or his Molech trip happened why back then.
I guess its more curious that people think that. But I guess they know more than we do.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: This is from a subreddit Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
Or 50k years worth of memories were already fracturing.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: This is from a subredditAs for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
I think even they know that. Which is why theyve mostly been killed off.
But thats not to say he wasnt gene enhanced back in the doat. Or his Molech trip happened why back then.
I guess its more curious that people think that. But I guess they know more than we do.
The Perpetuals are well written. And he was making some baseless assumptions about the Emperor.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead.
Dude, you made a a writing error. You forgot a question mark. Just a quick heads ups.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead.
Dude, you made a a writing error. You forgot a question mark. Just a quick heads ups.
couldn't care less, thanks for letting me know though.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?
But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....
Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?
But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....
Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.
The Phoenix lords are, as long as they have a exarch near them when they die, they can live forever. Perpetuals are not unkillable, they can all be killed with special weapons like anathame's, plus the Emperor was most likely a perpetual, he's pretty much dead. Vulken survived a blow from the fulgarite anathame but he's a Primarch, basically a super perpetual, but they are without doubt not unkillable, its written in plenty places that they are not unkillable.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.
To my mind, the perpetually are proof of and a consequence of the shaman theory. The shamans were being reborn again and again, etc., like perpetuals. They combined to form the Emperor, the greatest perpetual. Later perpetuals would be shamans who were either born later or simply missed out on the party.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?
But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....
Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.
I did show a quote from Voltstagge on reddit on how the Perpetuals work.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
Voltstagge on reddit said why he thinks the Perpetuals are well written.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
Voltstagge on reddit said why he thinks the Perpetuals are well written.
I thought you said they weren't well written. I think they are well written. Regardless who is Voltstagge and why should I listen to his opinion?
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
Voltstagge on reddit said why he thinks the Perpetuals are well written.
I thought you said they weren't well written. I think they are well written. Regardless who is Voltstagge and why should I listen to his opinion?
I said they were well written, and so did he.
Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.
That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.
When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.
Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.
1) The process doesn’t require an Exarch. 8E Codex makes that explicitly clear.
2) Perpetuals grow back. Phoenix Lords *must* die to do their respawning. They are *not* immortal. Given enough time a Phoenix Lord can die of old age.
If you can’t wrap your head around the difference between regrowing a limb and having to die, then steal another body, this conversation is over.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.
1) The process doesn’t require an Exarch. 8E Codex makes that explicitly clear.
2) Perpetuals grow back. Phoenix Lords *must* die to do their respawning. They are *not* immortal. Given enough time a Phoenix Lord can die of old age.
If you can’t wrap your head around the difference between regrowing a limb and having to die, then steal another body, this conversation is over.
Really? I was not aware of that. The Phoenix Lords have not shown that in thousands of years. And the Emperor is indisputably immortal.
" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.
As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.
Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.
The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.
Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.
Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?
But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....
Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.
The Phoenix lords are, as long as they have a exarch near them when they die, they can live forever. Perpetuals are not unkillable, they can all be killed with special weapons like anathame's, plus the Emperor was most likely a perpetual, he's pretty much dead. Vulken survived a blow from the fulgarite anathame but he's a Primarch, basically a super perpetual, but they are without doubt not unkillable, its written in plenty places that they are not unkillable.
They really aren't. Perpetuals are completely unkillable bar some weapons specially made.
A Phoenix Lord can be killed by a spoon. You're confusing a limited reincarnation with an actual Perpetual who you could incinerate and have come back.
The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.
That's not how Phoenix Lords work.
It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.
You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.
Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.
Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.
No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.
1) The process doesn’t require an Exarch. 8E Codex makes that explicitly clear.
2) Perpetuals grow back. Phoenix Lords *must* die to do their respawning. They are *not* immortal. Given enough time a Phoenix Lord can die of old age.
If you can’t wrap your head around the difference between regrowing a limb and having to die, then steal another body, this conversation is over.
Can you quote where the process doesn't require an exarch.
Again just because they are different in achieving or having there immortality is irrelevant. All perpetuals are, are immortals. A Phoenix lord cannot die of old age, they live until they are dead and hopefully there purpose is fulfilled. They ARE immortal, just because something 'can' die does not mean they aren't immortal otherwise they'd be 'eternal', perpetuals can die as well. Immortality is just living forever not being indestructible.
"But the Phoenix lord was not dead. All Phoenix lords are immortal" p138 Doom of Mymeara.
Re: Phoenix Lord dying of old age - the current body could die, but there is no evidence that the Phoenix Lord / Exarch itself (as in, the armor with the souls) dies of old age.
Phoenix Lords "die" all the time. They're each nearly as old as the Imperium (almost certainly older if you sum up the age of each lifetime they've lived, but many of those lifetimes are likely to be concurrent). Dying just slows them down a bit.
In theory, you can destroy a Phoenix Lord or Exarch just like you could destroy any other Spirit Stone collection. In practice, it's a lot harder, but I don't think there is lore about it being impossible (beyond "fate", which is in-universe plot armor).
They're about as different from Perpetuals as Demons or Necron Warriors. Each live an absurdly long time. Each come back from nearly any damage.
I’m not even sure what this thread is about anymore but I’ll wade in anyway.
Perpetuals as a concept suck. It’s silly and lazy. Doesn’t matter if they are well written. The idea is bad. It isn’t grim dark. It doesn’t belong.
It is perfectly fine for me to think pius is a heroic guardsman who saves the emperor. That’s a good story. Who ever perrrson is has nothing to do with that. I believe the old story. Not the new one. I’m allowed. It’s in the rules.
The emperor is a shaman going to be reborn as the starchild. ⭐️
These Horus heresy novels really are making a mess of the setting 10000 years after they are set. I’m happy to ignore them or take anything they say as rumour. And again. I’m allowed to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for Phoenix lords they aren’t immortal. Their souls are bonded with their armour so strongly that the next soul to wear it becomes part of the same being, a joining of all the previous souls who have worn it. It’s about the immaterial continuing not the physical.
And perpetuals are silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And there is no “lore”. Just fluff. Fun interesting made up fluff that you can use as you like.
These Horus heresy novels really are making a mess of the setting 10000 years after they are set. I’m happy to ignore them or take anything they say as rumour. And again. I’m allowed to.
I treat them like Hollywood 'based on true events' versions of the history (directed by Michael Bay.)
My biggest problem with the HH series at this point is just the sheer bloat which leads to more bad fluff because you have more and more novels and something needs to fill the pages. The first couple of books were pretty good and even though I knew how Isstvan was going to end, it did a solid job of making me see how characters I connected with died betrayed in an unthinkable way. Then a decade and 50 plus books latter, things are a mess, with way to many authors, divergent ideas of what direction the story is going and way to much of the curtain pulled back. They seem to have end in sight and just keep spinning the wheels. Should have been 10 to 15 novels tops.
Cyrene having her soul basically played with by demons for a year before being brought back to see what the Word Bearers have become.
Vulkan being tortured to the point of madness by Kurze.
Grammaticus being so jaded by his immortality that he commits suicide by sending himself to outerspace through an airlock in the hope that he will truly die. Because of his immortality he doesn't even allow himself to love, yet he yearns for it.
Being immortal in 40k is just as gakky as being mortal/dead. The doom of immortality can be found in many tragedies and stories.
Cyrene having her soul basically played with by demons for a year before being brought back to see what the Word Bearers have become.
Vulkan being tortured to the point of madness by Kurze.
Grammaticus being so jaded by his immortality that he commits suicide by sending himself to outerspace through an airlock in the hope that he will truly die. Because of his immortality he doesn't even allow himself to love, yet he yearns for it.
Being immortal in 40k is just as gakky as being mortal/dead. The doom of immortality can be found in many tragedies and stories.
It’s lazy writing really. Not being able to love is a long way feommgrim darkness. Your average imperial citizen wouldn’t have much sympathy for that. The guardsman facing an 8 foot ORK wouldn’t feelmyomsorry for him. It all very Hollywood and weak in comparison.
“I just want to live someone.” Gramaticus
“I have spent my entire short miserable life toiling in a hive, never seeing the light of day, getting so many work related diseases that my face fell off, seeing my children executed for having six fingers on one hand, eating only the recycled protein of my dead fellow hive dwellers, only to have the hive infested with demons who ate my soul and tormented me for enternity. But you didn’t get a cuddle! Bless.”
Grammaticus' biggest issue isn't being unable to love, it's having to help in the extermination of humanity. And yeah the meaningless toil of infite billions is way worse.
OT: Master of Mankind does a relatively good job of showing how evil the Emperor/the custodians are when you start to look at it.
"Let no corner of humanity stand free?" ,The whole 13th scene, An eye for an eye as the purest concept of justice.
I wonder whether it isn't intentional and or better to ignore the origins of the emperor lorewise, to the extend that he is quite a mysterious being and that trait renforces his pseudo-divineness.
In any case he's not immortal since the throne machinery keeps him alive. If he were, he could eventually get along without it, if the perpetuals are supposed to regenerate. Well or maybe he will and age of the emprah will be a thing.
I personnally dislike immortal things in 40k. It really reads like a commonplace plot armour and even in 40k it tends to sometimes get truly silly to my taste. Partial immortality through warp, tehcnology and so on is already quite great and over the top, plus it's not that rare I believe.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
Because it takes away the peril. And that that’s the point of the grim dark future, everything is trying to kill you. It’s all scary. Unless you are immortal. In which case it’s just dull.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.
Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.
Doesn’t matter what books you read it’s still dull. Deadpool the film to me was dull because he couldn’t be killed. The end fight between to unkillable characters was pointless. A rare one in a million chance to have your immortality removed isn’t the same as everything in the universe trying to kill u.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.
Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.
The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.
Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.
The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.
Daemon Princes keep coming back.
And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.
Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.
The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.
Daemon Princes keep coming back.
And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.
Yes but they're forced out for thousands of years in some cases and face punishment for failing. Plus there are lots (compared to Perpetuals) of weapons to kill them.
Onething123456 wrote: You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.
It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.
Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.
Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.
Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.
Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.
The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.
Daemon Princes keep coming back.
And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.
Yes but they're forced out for thousands of years in some cases and face punishment for failing. Plus there are lots (compared to Perpetuals) of weapons to kill them.
I did not know there were many ways to do that.
And the Imperium's actions are understandable. Its lives in a brutal universe. The Horus Heresy novels show almost all aliens were hostile (Horus in Horus Rising said the Interex was the first alien co-existence they came across, and thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex). Plus, the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.)
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
Andykp wrote: U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.
And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
Andykp wrote: U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.
And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.
A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.
Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.
What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.
Andykp wrote: U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.
And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.
A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.
Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.
What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
Of course he is. He is a genocidal dictator who ran his empire through a cult of personality and brutal oppression. Anyone who disagreed with him was destroyed. Stalin or hitler? Take your pick. I think Stalin fits better and I’m right about the bob.
If the rule was don’t let dangerous aliens live if they could destroy us, fine. But it’s dont let any alien live. Ever. That’s a bit extreme. Stalinesque.
Not all planets met during the great crusade were liberated from alien overlords. Human worlds that were self governing were told to join the imperium or be made to. Nice. Not like Stalin at all.
Andykp wrote: U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.
And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.
A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.
Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.
What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
Of course he is. He is a genocidal dictator who ran his empire through a cult of personality and brutal oppression. Anyone who disagreed with him was destroyed. Stalin or hitler? Take your pick. I think Stalin fits better and I’m right about the bob.
If the rule was don’t let dangerous aliens live if they could destroy us, fine. But it’s dont let any alien live. Ever. That’s a bit extreme. Stalinesque.
Not all planets met during the great crusade were liberated from alien overlords. Human worlds that were self governing were told to join the imperium or be made to. Nice. Not like Stalin at all.
Andykp wrote: U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.
A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.
And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.
A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.
Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.
What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.
The Age of Strife shows they not doing well.
What do you mean?
The Emperor did not put up brutal oppression. Prove it. Don't keep meme-ing. I have read roughly 20 Horus Heresy books, and he is mostly nothing of what you say.. Life in the 30k Imperium was pretty nice.
Take this quote from Horus Rising.
Horus smiled. 'At last, a thinking man.' He rose to his feet and, carrying his cup carefully, walked across to the right-hand wall of the stateroom, a section of which had been richly decorated with a mural. The painting showed the Emperor, ascendant above all, catching the spinning constellations in his outstretched hand. 'The stars,' Horus said. 'See, there? How he scoops them up? The zodiacs swirl into his grasp like fireflies. The stars are mankind's birthright. That's what he told me. That's one of the first things he told me when we met. I was like a child then, raised up from nothing. He set me at his side, and pointed to the heavens. Those points of light, he said, are what we have been waiting generations to master. Imagine, Horus, every one a human culture, every one a realm of beauty and magnificence, free from strife, free from war, free from bloodshed and the tyrannous oppression of alien overlords. Make no mistake, he said, and they will be ours.
And Tales of Heresy shows that life in the 30k Imperium was nice.
So the Emperor conquered planets that refused to join? That does not make him Stalin. Alexander the Great conquered, the Romans did it, the Persians did it, and so on. And did you that the Persian empire under Xerxes was closer to a modern western government than any place in Greece? They still conquered.
@Firstly I will point out the flaw in your quote. And say I don’t know what meme-ing is. But the quote. The emperor told horus that the stars were their birth right. They were the true race that should live in the universe. U say that to show that the emperor wasn’t a tyrant. Hitler said exactly the same thing about Eastern Europe. He claimed it was the birth right of the German people as the master race.
As for a quote i will get back to you shortly. Don’t have quotes at hand but won’t take me long to find a human world put to the sword by uncle joe the emperor for the greater good of humanity.
Andykp wrote: @Firstly I will point out the flaw in your quote. And say I don’t know what meme-ing is. But the quote. The emperor told horus that the stars were their birth right. They were the true race that should live in the universe. U say that to show that the emperor wasn’t a tyrant. Hitler said exactly the same thing about Eastern Europe. He claimed it was the birth right of the German people as the master race.
As for a quote i will get back to you shortly. Don’t have quotes at hand but won’t take me long to find a human world put to the sword by uncle joe the emperor for the greater good of humanity.
No, the underlined part shows that there was prosperity in the Imperium, and was not a bad place to live. It was nice to live, not a hellhole.
And Hitler was clearly racist and believed in Aryan supremacy. The Confederates believed in white supremacy.
Go ahead if it is real. The Emperor is basically a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II from Dune.
The underlined part shows that the man in charge expressed to his right-hand man that there would propserity in the Imperium. Once they conquer everyone.
It's surprisingly remeniscent of Stalin. Wouldn't he make similar claims?
Bharring wrote: The underlined part shows that the man in charge expressed to his right-hand man that there would propserity in the Imperium. Once they conquer everyone.
It's surprisingly remeniscent of Stalin. Wouldn't he make similar claims?
First, he 30k Imperium was a great place to live. Not horrible.
And second, the quote was happening near the end of the Crusade when Horus was Warmaster. There is already prosperity in the Imperium. The Emperor did reject religion and believed it held back humanity in Tales of Heresy
And what do you make of this quote below?
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.
Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.
Your quotes keep showing how horrible the great crusade was. And if you really believe all was lovely in the imperium around the time of the great crusade then you need to read more books. Twenty hasn’t taught you anything. Back to Cali an again, it was a nice, warptainted feudal civilisation, lush green forests and thanks to Lionel Johnson free of evil monsters. It was nice. After the emperor came along it was turned into a hive littered industrial complex feeding the emperors war machine being choked with pollution. Yay.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.
Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.
The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: Your quotes keep showing how horrible the great crusade was. And if you really believe all was lovely in the imperium around the time of the great crusade then you need to read more books. Twenty hasn’t taught you anything. Back to Cali an again, it was a nice, warptainted feudal civilisation, lush green forests and thanks to Lionel Johnson free of evil monsters. It was nice. After the emperor came along it was turned into a hive littered industrial complex feeding the emperors war machine being choked with pollution. Yay.
Your'e reading comprehension sucks. The quote from Age of Darkness showed that Remus (a Marine) was horrified at how barbaric Angron was. And it said that any civilized code of war would deem abhorrent what Angron did. Not the Emperor's doing, it was Angron. Everyone else in the Imperium condemned the World Eaters for what happened in my quote.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.
Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.
The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.
Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.
Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.
The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.
Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.
The vast majority WERE saved from alien oppressors. Horus makes it terribly clear that every alien before the Interex was hostile. Can you prove I'm wrong? Why is that so many things I've heard about the Emperor tuned out to be not true after reading the Horus Heresy books? Almost all aliens were hostile. And the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens.
And did you know in the same book the Diasporex appeared in the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate? Strange. The Diasporex was entirely Ferrus' doing. The Emperor had nothing to do with it.
Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Angron wise, yes remus didn’t like it but it happened in the emperors name and worse did too. And who designed angron, who was his commander? Who’s side was he fighting for?
The dominant empire in the galaxy had been destroyed just prior to the Great Crusade.
Reconsider this statement:
"Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens."
If believing they were comparable/equal to humans is a capitol offense, that's not some enlightened egalitarian mindset. That's a domineering racist mindset. Both "They're beneath us" and "They don't deserve to live" fit the model that the Imperium is the evil empire - neither paint the rosy picture you're trying to paint.
Andykp wrote: Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.
The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.
That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.
There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.
Andykp wrote: There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.
And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.
The Emperor seems to be an alright guy after reading about 20 Horus Heresy books myself. But he is arrogant and thinks he is right. Even in The Last Church, he came off as arrogant, but he was still an alright guy. Uriah belived what he said about the Emperor wanting to enlighten humanity under the Imperial Truth, but did want part in it.
Andykp wrote: Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.
The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.
That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.
you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.
Andykp wrote: The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.
No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.
Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.
The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.
Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.
The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.
Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.
The vast majority WERE saved from alien oppressors. Horus makes it terribly clear that every alien before the Interex was hostile. Can you prove I'm wrong? Why is that so many things I've heard about the Emperor tuned out to be not true after reading the Horus Heresy books? Almost all aliens were hostile. And the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens.
And did you know in the same book the Diasporex appeared in the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate? Strange. The Diasporex was entirely Ferrus' doing. The Emperor had nothing to do with it.
You're saying that the Emperor who established every goal and law of the Imperium had nothing to do with the campaign of "join or die"?
Andykp wrote: There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.
And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.
The Faash believed themselves an enlightened civilisation, emerging from the barbarism of an 'age of horrors' under the guidance of Durath, whom the Imperium called the Tyrant of Dulan. They abhorred the alien, the mutant, and the heretic.[1c] sounds familiar.
Andykp wrote: There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.
And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.
Citation needed.
The imperium called him the tyrant of dulan so he must be!
Andykp wrote: Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.
The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.
That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.
you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.
I haven't debunked a thing? That one example of a human civilzation you named was being ruled by an evil tyrant, and was liberated by the Imperium. I'd day I debunked it when pointing that out.
You've only made a claim by fiat: he's called an evil tyrant by the empire that overthrew him and took his place. You haven't shown that a neutral party would consider him either evil or a tyrant. You also haven't shown how his empire was less evil and/or tyranical than Big E's.
Andykp wrote: Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.
The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.
That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.
you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.
I haven't debunked a thing? That one example of a human civilzation you named was being ruled by an evil tyrant, and was liberated by the Imperium. I'd day I debunked it when pointing that out.
I refer unto my point above about how the “tyrant” was a copy of the emperor. So you must be wrong. Either the emperor is a tyrant or the other fellow isn’t.
Bharring wrote: You've only made a claim by fiat: he's called an evil tyrant by the empire that overthrew him and took his place. You haven't shown that a neutral party would consider him either evil or a tyrant. You also haven't shown how his empire was less evil and/or tyranical than Big E's.
I'm seeing no points presented in that link that discuss the relative evilness of that empire vs the IoM.
The closest reference to how enlightened or egalitarian that empire are are:
-THere's a throneworld - so a central world from which it's ruled (see: Holy Terra - so certainly no worse than IoM)
-It was ruled by an individual with a suggestion that they had complete power (see: Empy - again, certainly no worse than IoM)
Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm
Andykp wrote: Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm
Andykp wrote: There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.
And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.
Andykp wrote: Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm
Andykp wrote: By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.
Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?
Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.
Really? I'd say I do since I showed lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
That’s great but there is more to it than the books you’ve read. There are 30years of background and ideas that have gone into it. If you think the emperor was nice and liberated people you have missed the point and need to keep reading.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Take the Keylekid for example. They sound quite nice and no threat to the imperium at all. Wiped out in a really underhand way. Nice policy of extermination there.
Andykp wrote: Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm
Andykp wrote: By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.
Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?
Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.
Really? I'd say I do since I showed lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
That’s great but there is more to it than the books you’ve read. There are 30years of background and ideas that have gone into it. If you think the emperor was nice and liberated people you have missed the point and need to keep reading.
The Emperor mostly did do that. Of course he conquered some planets.
Honestly? No. I looked at Lexicanum before asking for citation and a summary is that the Imperium found a culture that wasn't subservient and immediately conquered them. Nothing in that suggests the ruler was a Tyrant. I had the impression they were a nice enough self sustaining world that was invaded because they were there.
Nothing but the Imperium's say so makes them seem harsh at all.
pm713 wrote: Honestly? No. I looked at Lexicanum before asking for citation and a summary is that the Imperium found a culture that wasn't subservient and immediately conquered them. Nothing in that suggests the ruler was a Tyrant. I had the impression they were a nice enough self sustaining world that was invaded because they were there.
Nothing but the Imperium's say so makes them seem harsh at all.
Then you clearly did not read it.
"Dulan, meaning "Earth" in the local language, was the throneworld of the Faash civilisation which spanned a number of other star systems.[3a] It was ruled by the Tyrant Durath,[2] who refused to join the Imperium.[3a]
The Space Wolves and Dark Angels launched a joint assault on Dulan at the end of the Dulan Campaign. Lion El'Jonson executed the Tyrant in his throne room, angering Leman Russ who then struck his brother.[3b] The infamous duel between the Lion and the Wolf led to the tradition that whenever the two Legions (later Chapters) met, they would nominate champions to fight an honour duel. The tradition endures into M41.[1][2]"
It's Tyrant Durath, or Tyrant - as in the name the Imperium gave him. So it's only clear that the Imperium wants to label him a tyrant. If Lexicanum said tyrant - the term instead of a proper noun - that'd be different.
That said, the bar here is "worse than Empy" not "bad". Empy is described as a tyrant quite a bit.
As for the word "liberated", I'm not seeing it anywhere in that text.
That argument would mean neither Hitler nor Lenin were bad - because Hitler tried to liberate people from Lenin, and Lenin tried to liberate people from Hitler. Clearly, they were both bad - so, clearly, that argument doesn't stand.
Bharring wrote: It's Tyrant Durath, or Tyrant - as in the name the Imperium gave him. So it's only clear that the Imperium wants to label him a tyrant. If Lexicanum said tyrant - the term instead of a proper noun - that'd be different.
That said, the bar here is "worse than Empy" not "bad". Empy is described as a tyrant quite a bit.
As for the word "liberated", I'm not seeing it anywhere in that text.
If you must know then Dulan technically attacked the Imperium first as the ruler sent taunts to the Imperium and showed Imperial troops he captured.
Bharring wrote: It's Tyrant Durath, or Tyrant - as in the name the Imperium gave him. So it's only clear that the Imperium wants to label him a tyrant. If Lexicanum said tyrant - the term instead of a proper noun - that'd be different.
That said, the bar here is "worse than Empy" not "bad". Empy is described as a tyrant quite a bit.
As for the word "liberated", I'm not seeing it anywhere in that text.
If you must know then Dulan technically attacked the Imperium first as the ruler sent taunts to the Imperium and showed Imperial troops he captured.
And the Emperor? Not really.
And Great Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. Were they the baddies of WW2. And taunting and sending pictures isn’t attacking. That’s taunting. How did he capture imperial troops if they weren’t interfering in his planet anyway. How do you know the faash, the people of dulan were unhappy?
Bharring wrote: Your claim is that Empy never insulted anyone, and never captured or worse anyone?
Insulted? Of course he has insulted. He seemed to insult Uriah's religion in The Last Church, but apologized.
And Stalin? I'd say he was closer to Xerxes since he conquered.
U mean liberated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I doubt Durath introduced himself as “tyrant” or that he was known as the tyrant durath to his people. He was probably emperor or something like that.
Bharring wrote: Your claim is that Empy never insulted anyone, and never captured or worse anyone?
Insulted? Of course he has insulted. He seemed to insult Uriah's religion in The Last Church, but apologized.
And Stalin? I'd say he was closer to Xerxes since he conquered.
U mean liberated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I doubt Durath introduced himself as “tyrant” or that he was known as the tyrant durath to his people. He was probably emperor or something like that.
I did not say he never conquered. I said he liberated most of the time. Its no more evil than what Alexander the Great and Xerxes did.
Bharring wrote: Your claim is that Empy never insulted anyone, and never captured or worse anyone?
Insulted? Of course he has insulted. He seemed to insult Uriah's religion in The Last Church, but apologized.
And Stalin? I'd say he was closer to Xerxes since he conquered.
U mean liberated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I doubt Durath introduced himself as “tyrant” or that he was known as the tyrant durath to his people. He was probably emperor or something like that.
I did not say he never conquered. I said he liberated most of the time. Its no more evil than what Alexander the Great and Xerxes did.
To the people being “liberated” it’s pretty evil. It’s only nice if he replaced it with something better. He didn’t. He replaced it with the imperium.
Bharring wrote: It's Tyrant Durath, or Tyrant - as in the name the Imperium gave him. So it's only clear that the Imperium wants to label him a tyrant. If Lexicanum said tyrant - the term instead of a proper noun - that'd be different.
That said, the bar here is "worse than Empy" not "bad". Empy is described as a tyrant quite a bit.
As for the word "liberated", I'm not seeing it anywhere in that text.
If you must know then Dulan technically attacked the Imperium first as the ruler sent taunts to the Imperium and showed Imperial troops he captured.
And the Emperor? Not really.
And Great Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. Were they the baddies of WW2. And taunting and sending pictures isn’t attacking. That’s taunting. How did he capture imperial troops if they weren’t interfering in his planet anyway. How do you know the faash, the people of dulan were unhappy?
He provoked them. And you talk as if the 30k Imperium was a horrible place to live. It was not. I already showed the quote from Horus Rising (And do remember that Horus Rising took place near the end of the Crusade) that Horus was talking to his Marines about the Emperor's vision for a perfect society. He is telling his own Marines that, so its illogical he would lie since prosperity was already in the Imperium. And did you read my quote from Age of Darkness? Why is that quote there if the Emperor was a trigger-happy Patrick Bateman monarch? Age of Darkness showed Remus mused that what Angron did is something any civilized code of war would deem abhorrent. Remus and other Marines opposed Angron, as he was too extreme for the Emperor.
Bharring wrote: I dunno, Alexander and Xerxes weren't so full-throttle genocidal.
At least other people out there get it. Maybe onething will too if he opens his eyes and sees that he is wrong, not all of us. Night.
And so far you have provided no proof for anything of what you said. I even debunked Dulan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: I dunno, Alexander and Xerxes weren't so full-throttle genocidal.
Neither was the Emperor, from what I have read. Roughly 20 Horus Heresy books. I keep getting nothing.
And don't forget that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Fulgrim rejected it because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens. Shown in pg. 28 of the Fulgrim book.
I didn’t debunk dulan. U pointed out that the imperium calls him a tyrant. Nothing else. Your quotes don’t show what you think they do. The horus one shows that the emperor was a nazi. The other that he allowed savages to conduct his genocides. There were Germans who condemned what hitlers underlings did in his name, that doesn’t mean hitler was ok.
U show me where the Emperor tries and executes anyone in his command for war crimes and states a galaxy wide universal health care plan and I might believe u. He doesn’t. He advocates irradiation of entire races and civilisations. The deaths of untold billions in a bid to create an empire he imagined. If anyone doesn’t agree to be part of it they will die. If they disagree with it. They die. If they don’t fit it’s idea what is a normal person. They die.
Nowhere have you shown that there was prosperity or happiness in the wake of the great crusade. The example of caliban I have shown you proves the opposite. A general telling his troops that everyone will be happy joe isn’t proof of anything. The emperor killed his own troops when then stopped being useful. In a galaxy of billions of planets they were all happy to be rules by the emperor? Utter rubbish mate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I believe black library are bringing out a series of books that misrepresents the universe in the setting somehow because you are the second person I’ve argued with who had read these books and thought he knew it all and was way off the mark, not just according to me but everyone else on here. And he seemed sensible and reasonable compared to u.
Andykp wrote: I didn’t debunk dulan. U pointed out that the imperium calls him a tyrant. Nothing else. Your quotes don’t show what you think they do. The horus one shows that the emperor was a nazi. The other that he allowed savages to conduct his genocides. There were Germans who condemned what hitlers underlings did in his name, that doesn’t mean hitler was ok.
U show me where the Emperor tries and executes anyone in his command for war crimes and states a galaxy wide universal health care plan and I might believe u. He doesn’t. He advocates irradiation of entire races and civilisations. The deaths of untold billions in a bid to create an empire he imagined. If anyone doesn’t agree to be part of it they will die. If they disagree with it. They die. If they don’t fit it’s idea what is a normal person. They die.
Nowhere have you shown that there was prosperity or happiness in the wake of the great crusade. The example of caliban I have shown you proves the opposite. A general telling his troops that everyone will be happy joe isn’t proof of anything. The emperor killed his own troops when then stopped being useful. In a galaxy of billions of planets they were all happy to be rules by the emperor? Utter rubbish mate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I believe black library are bringing out a series of books that misrepresents the universe in the setting somehow because you are the second person I’ve argued with who had read these books and thought he knew it all and was way off the mark, not just according to me but everyone else on here. And he seemed sensible and reasonable compared to u.
The quote from Age of Darkness shows that Remus thought Angron was too extreme. And he was too extreme for the Emperor. And I did just show you a quote from Age of Darkness that shows unequivocally the Emperor and other Legions considered Angron too extreme. And the Emperor did censor Angron.
Really? Then explain the Laer. The Council of Terra voted to make them a protectorate. You keep saying a lot of things but have not shown proof. Prove the Emperor did what you said.
You say what you say about the Emperor, and the Horus Heresy books I read show you are wrong. Show me quotes.
If they disagree with the Emperor then they were mostly conquered.
Caliban does not show that.
At this point I believe the notion of the Emperor being a genocidal Patrick Bateman monarch is just fans spewing nonsense.
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Forgot to say that Galaspar attacked first when they attacked Imperial envoys. And the Imperium did not wipe them out, they killed the defenders and conquered it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: The battle of 63-19 is another example. Liberated them. No. Conquered them.
63-19 is the planet with a different Imperium that thought it was the real Terra and had a ruler called the Emperor.
And Horus thought the Emperor would have settled 63-19 peacefully. Below is a quote from Horus Rising.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
You know, Onething, all the quotes you're using to support your position are from the mouths of unreliable narrators and that there's such a thing as 'free indirect discourse'. This is a really common thing in writing and requires the reader to be very critical and discerning, otherwise they accept everything written as gospel. Writers often describe things as the characters involved see the world. So an event which seems to be incontrovertible and objective is actually the writer being a clever clogs.
Try it yourself. Write two short stories describing the same event, let's say a retreat from a Tyranid attack. In one your main character is a guardsman. The other is the same event but your main character is a Commissar. The adjectives you'll use and the interior thoughts of your characters will give a completely different impression of the same event.
This is what you're missing in your, obviously extensive, readings. It's like getting your news from certain news channels or newspapers. You have to assume there's an ideology at work, spinning the information you're getting.
Horus' regret in your above quote speaks to his feeling of inadequacy compared to the Emperor and the idea that he can never live up to his father. Typical undergrad psych schtick. You're supposed to read between the lines and realise that his pops would have done the exact same and that Horus is actually being hard on himself and revealing some psychological frailty.
The use of the word Tyrant, which you highlighted is the perfect example of all this. Who calls him Tyrant? And in what context? The word tyrant was originally, way back in ancient Greece, simply used to describe someone who ruled over a community or polity. Through the very use of this word, the author encourages you to peel back layers of implication and realise there's more than just the literal at work.
Banville wrote: You know, Onething, all the quotes you're using to support your position are from the mouths of unreliable narrators and that there's such a thing as 'free indirect discourse'. This is a really common thing in writing and requires the reader to be very critical and discerning, otherwise they accept everything written as gospel. Writers often describe things as the characters involved see the world. So an event which seems to be incontrovertible and objective is actually the writer being a clever clogs.
Try it yourself. Write two short stories describing the same event, let's say a retreat from a Tyranid attack. In one your main character is a guardsman. The other is the same event but your main character is a Commissar. The adjectives you'll use and the interior thoughts of your characters will give a completely different impression of the same event.
This is what you're missing in your, obviously extensive, readings. It's like getting your news from certain news channels or newspapers. You have to assume there's an ideology at work, spinning the information you're getting.
Horus' regret in your above quote speaks to his feeling of inadequacy compared to the Emperor and the idea that he can never live up to his father. Typical undergrad psych schtick. You're supposed to read between the lines and realise that his pops would have done the exact same and that Horus is actually being hard on himself and revealing some psychological frailty.
The use of the word Tyrant, which you highlighted is the perfect example of all this. Who calls him Tyrant? And in what context? The word tyrant was originally, way back in ancient Greece, simply used to describe someone who ruled over a community or polity. Through the very use of this word, the author encourages you to peel back layers of implication and realise there's more than just the literal at work.
Superbly put. I wish I could’ve said this as eloquently as u. It would have saved me a lot of time. Onething please read this and take it to heart. Your enjoyment of the hobby will increase many fold if you do. There are so many layers and nuances to the background that it is really very complex and interesting.
Banville wrote: You know, Onething, all the quotes you're using to support your position are from the mouths of unreliable narrators and that there's such a thing as 'free indirect discourse'. This is a really common thing in writing and requires the reader to be very critical and discerning, otherwise they accept everything written as gospel. Writers often describe things as the characters involved see the world. So an event which seems to be incontrovertible and objective is actually the writer being a clever clogs.
Try it yourself. Write two short stories describing the same event, let's say a retreat from a Tyranid attack. In one your main character is a guardsman. The other is the same event but your main character is a Commissar. The adjectives you'll use and the interior thoughts of your characters will give a completely different impression of the same event.
This is what you're missing in your, obviously extensive, readings. It's like getting your news from certain news channels or newspapers. You have to assume there's an ideology at work, spinning the information you're getting.
Horus' regret in your above quote speaks to his feeling of inadequacy compared to the Emperor and the idea that he can never live up to his father. Typical undergrad psych schtick. You're supposed to read between the lines and realise that his pops would have done the exact same and that Horus is actually being hard on himself and revealing some psychological frailty.
The use of the word Tyrant, which you highlighted is the perfect example of all this. Who calls him Tyrant? And in what context? The word tyrant was originally, way back in ancient Greece, simply used to describe someone who ruled over a community or polity. Through the very use of this word, the author encourages you to peel back layers of implication and realise there's more than just the literal at work.
Superbly put. I wish I could’ve said this as eloquently as u. It would have saved me a lot of time. Onething please read this and take it to heart. Your enjoyment of the hobby will increase many fold if you do. There are so many layers and nuances to the background that it is really very complex and interesting.
Agreed. the thing you gotta remember is not to take everything everyone says in a story as the truth, anymore then you'd take everything someone IRL says as truth.
as your mother told you "don't belive everything you read"
Yeep, like in Horus Rising when they conquer 63-19 the "emperor" asks. "Why couldn't you just leave us alone?"
If you just read the letter of Master of Mankind you won't see it but there is no other book in HH that villifies the emperor as much.
The Magnus novella comes close if the stormlord implication is correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Never mistake the imperium during the great crusade as anything but an absolutist monarchy. It's simply nicer about it than it's 40K counterpart.
Banville wrote: You know, Onething, all the quotes you're using to support your position are from the mouths of unreliable narrators and that there's such a thing as 'free indirect discourse'. This is a really common thing in writing and requires the reader to be very critical and discerning, otherwise they accept everything written as gospel. Writers often describe things as the characters involved see the world. So an event which seems to be incontrovertible and objective is actually the writer being a clever clogs.
Try it yourself. Write two short stories describing the same event, let's say a retreat from a Tyranid attack. In one your main character is a guardsman. The other is the same event but your main character is a Commissar. The adjectives you'll use and the interior thoughts of your characters will give a completely different impression of the same event.
This is what you're missing in your, obviously extensive, readings. It's like getting your news from certain news channels or newspapers. You have to assume there's an ideology at work, spinning the information you're getting.
Horus' regret in your above quote speaks to his feeling of inadequacy compared to the Emperor and the idea that he can never live up to his father. Typical undergrad psych schtick. You're supposed to read between the lines and realise that his pops would have done the exact same and that Horus is actually being hard on himself and revealing some psychological frailty.
The use of the word Tyrant, which you highlighted is the perfect example of all this. Who calls him Tyrant? And in what context? The word tyrant was originally, way back in ancient Greece, simply used to describe someone who ruled over a community or polity. Through the very use of this word, the author encourages you to peel back layers of implication and realise there's more than just the literal at work.
63-19 was Horus making rash decisions, and Horus thought the Emperor would have settled it peacefully. I showed that with the quote. And yes, the word tyrant is from ancient Greece, but the Horus Heresy books mostly use to describe someone evil. And thanks for talking with me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Earth127 wrote: Yeep, like in Horus Rising when they conquer 63-19 the "emperor" asks. "Why couldn't you just leave us alone?"
If you just read the letter of Master of Mankind you won't see it but there is no other book in HH that villifies the emperor as much.
The Magnus novella comes close if the stormlord implication is correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Never mistake the imperium during the great crusade as anything but an absolutist monarchy. It's simply nicer about it than it's 40K counterpart.
Did you not read my quote from Horus Rising?
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
Did you miss the part where Horus says the Emperor would have settled it peacefully?
There must be something about the background forum that makes intractable people post large walls of quotes while simultaneously misunderstanding them. Is it contagious? Will I catch it too?
Whether the Emperor would have handled one specific case differently isn't really the point. It's clear from the various interactions we know of during the Crusade that the Emperor was absolutely fine with forcibly inducting planets into the Imperium. He viewed it as for the greater good but all his supposedly noble talk about reclaiming mankind's birthright kind of pales next to the genocide of the Crusade.
Horus “thinks” the emperor could’ve settled it peacefully. That in no way means he could of. It shows that horus believes him beneath his fathers level and inferior to him. Through his eyes with that belief he thinks he made a mistake his father wouldn’t have. There is no eveidemce that that is the case. In fact loken contradicts him and reassures him it was unavoidable. Again, is this true or is he just trying to be nice to his friend and superior?
That small passage in no way proves your argument. For we know the emperor would’ve done a big exterminatus on the whole planet you are reading the words and interpreting it literally and taking horuss word as the truth. U need to be able to pick up the nuances in the text and the context. Even on its own that quote shows only how two characters feel about something. Nothing of the emperor. Please stop trying use it as proof of your arguemnet. It doesn’t work. Try again or accept you are wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: There must be something about the background forum that makes intractable people post large walls of quotes while simultaneously misunderstanding them. Is it contagious? Will I catch it too?
Whether the Emperor would have handled one specific case differently isn't really the point. It's clear from the various interactions we know of during the Crusade that the Emperor was absolutely fine with forcibly inducting planets into the Imperium. He viewed it as for the greater good but all his supposedly noble talk about reclaiming mankind's birthright kind of pales next to the genocide of the Crusade.
And it always seems to stem from people who have read a lot of HH books. It may be some kind of mind control subliminal message in the text. It seems to make the, think they know something no one else does.
This is evidence of the emperors true nature for you onething. The proximan betrayal. A group in insurgents tried to kill him, and he declared exterminatus on the “whole” planet. Nice and reasonable response.
Yes, but just because Horus says it, doesn't mean it's true. The author puts those words into Horus' mouth in order to show how insecure and filled with self-doubt he is. I've had a couple of novels published and what Abnett is doing is typical of what any writer would do when trying to create a character with 'daddy issues'. Horus is saying his father would have done a better job because he feels he can never match his father. Its straight out of Freud 101.
Basically everything a character says us either exposition or designed to reveal personality. What the quote you're using does is expose how frail Horus' sense of self is and how incapable he feels in comparison to his dad. It doesn't actually give any real info on what the Emperor would or would not have done because you can only judge characters by their actions, not what another character says about them.
I think you need to take a step back and distance yourself from these characters. You can't take anything they say as unvarnished truth. I'm sure I could pull a quote from Lorgar extolling the virtues of Erebus and describing Kor Pheron as a stand up guy. Doesn't mean they are.
Andykp wrote: This is evidence of the emperors true nature for you onething. The proximan betrayal. A group in insurgents tried to kill him, and he declared exterminatus on the “whole” planet. Nice and reasonable response.
That was a rebellion where they tried to kill the Emperor (and of course fail). Not unprovoked.
And pretty much all of that comes from the Forgeworld books. Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld also says the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien overlords. The same book you were using.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Banville wrote: Yes, but just because Horus says it, doesn't mean it's true. The author puts those words into Horus' mouth in order to show how insecure and filled with self-doubt he is. I've had a couple of novels published and what Abnett is doing is typical of what any writer would do when trying to create a character with 'daddy issues'. Horus is saying his father would have done a better job because he feels he can never match his father. Its straight out of Freud 101.
Basically everything a character says us either exposition or designed to reveal personality. What the quote you're using does is expose how frail Horus' sense of self is and how incapable he feels in comparison to his dad. It doesn't actually give any real info on what the Emperor would or would not have done because you can only judge characters by their actions, not what another character says about them.
I think you need to take a step back and distance yourself from these characters. You can't take anything they say as unvarnished truth. I'm sure I could pull a quote from Lorgar extolling the virtues of Erebus and describing Kor Pheron as a stand up guy. Doesn't mean they are.
No, but Horus believed it. And it was clearly his mistake, not the Emperor's fault.
Andykp wrote: This is evidence of the emperors true nature for you onething. The proximan betrayal. A group in insurgents tried to kill him, and he declared exterminatus on the “whole” planet. Nice and reasonable response.
That was a rebellion where they tried to kill the Emperor (and of course fail). Not unprovoked.
And pretty much all of that comes from the Forgeworld books. Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld also says the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien overlords. The same book you were using.
Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.
I'm genuinely trying to help, here Onething, because I think you're missing pretty large swathes of dramatic irony in all of this. Your little flag doohickey says you're American. Maybe the whole 'American Irony Blindspot', thing has some merit!
Buy some old 2000ADs. 40k is from the same vintage and carries the same cynical attitude to authoritarianism. Here's a tip, if you read Judge Dredd and think he represents the good guys, you're missing something.
Andykp wrote: This is evidence of the emperors true nature for you onething. The proximan betrayal. A group in insurgents tried to kill him, and he declared exterminatus on the “whole” planet. Nice and reasonable response.
That was a rebellion where they tried to kill the Emperor (and of course fail). Not unprovoked.
And pretty much all of that comes from the Forgeworld books. Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld also says the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien overlords. The same book you were using.
Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.
I'm genuinely trying to help, here Onething, because I think you're missing pretty large swathes of dramatic irony in all of this. Your little flag doohickey says you're American. Maybe the whole 'American Irony Blindspot', thing has some merit!
Buy some old 2000ADs. 40k is from the same vintage and carries the same cynical attitude to authoritarianism. Here's a tip, if you read Judge Dredd and think he represents the good guys, you're missing something.
Yeah, I'm American. And the Imperium is feudal, not fascist.
Ah, okay. I see where some of the misunderstanding between you and some other posters is coming from. The Imperium is text book fascism/authoritarianism. In fact the idea for it sprang from a lot of stuff that was happening in Thatcher's Britain. Workers rights being trod on, to a large extent. Racism. Intolerance etc etc. The 80s was often socially rough over here in Europe.
Actually check out Strontium Dog The Final Solution. It's basically the Ecclesiarchy and how it deals with genetic divergence. One of the finest pieces of political satire ever written. I think Abnett wrote for 2000AD, didn't he?
Seriously, you can map Nazi Germany and elements of Stalinism and Italian Fascism straight onto the Imperium.
Where did your concept of it being feudal stem from? I'm genuinely curious.
The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long as they pay tithe.
Which is an element of feudalism, yes. However, taken as a whole, it's extremely obvious that the Imperium is a fascist, totalitarian regime. So obvious I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.
The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long as they pay tithe.
Which is an element of feudalism, yes. However, taken as a whole, it's extremely obvious that the Imperium is a fascist, totalitarian regime. So obvious I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.
The Imperium is more of a feudal empire than fascist. Totalitarian would mean it controls everything, and it does not. The Imperium would collapse if it functioned as a real totalitarian fascist regime at the galactic level.
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Banville wrote: Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.
And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.
You seem to be missing the idea that to be fascist the central government must control every aspect of every planet. It doesn't. Please read the 14 signs of a fascism and please refute that any of them don't apply to the IOM as whole. The only one they don't check number 5, rampant sexism.
Banville wrote: Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.
And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.
You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.
Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?
Banville wrote: Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.
And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.
You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.
Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?
I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.
Nationalsocialism is a kind of fascism, it has all the same basics, the main difference is the holocaust, basically, making german fascism unique. Hitler copied most of Mussolinis strategies and tactics and derived his ideology from british and russian fascists.
Banville wrote: Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.
And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.
You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.
Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?
I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.
Same ideology, different name. Like the Carlists in Spain. They put a slightly different emphasis on culturally specific things but in general they were pretty interchangeable. Wherever you heard totalitarianism or fascism etc put a stop to private industry, it isn't accurate. The landlord class in Spain for instance universally backed Franco. Volkswagen prospered under Hitler. FIAT made money under Mussolini etc etc.
Banville wrote: Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.
Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.
The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.
The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.
Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.
And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.
You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.
Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?
I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.
Same ideology, different name. Like the Carlists in Spain. They put a slightly different emphasis on culturally specific things but in general they were pretty interchangeable. Wherever you heard totalitarianism or fascism etc put a stop to private industry, it isn't accurate. The landlord class in Spain for instance universally backed Franco. Volkswagen prospered under Hitler. FIAT made money under Mussolini etc etc.
Does that help open your eyes a bit?
Sure, but the Emperor is not really Hitler. He did make concentration camps, for one thing. And the Forgeworld books say the Crusade freed "enslaved billions" from alien overlords. And I understand why the Imperium is xenophobic since the Nephilim.
Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.
Bharring wrote: How do you Godwin a thread about a character written to be an omnipotent Hitler?
This is why we need civics in school.
So far I have seen only one example (and from Forgeworld books) of the Imperium crushing a planet, and that was rebel planet that tried to assassinate the Emperor (and failed of course). The Forgeworld books also say the Crusade freed "enslaved billions" from alien overlords and wiped out the alien slavemasters at the moons of Saturn and Jupiter.
When I was reading the Scions of the Storm short story from Tales of Heresy, I knew that Lorgar, Erebus and Kor were lying about the Emperor wanting to wipe out a planet for worshipping him, since one of the Word Bearers at the beginning off the book asked Lorgar, Erebus and Kor "is it not the duty of the Crusade to embrace all the strands of humanity, even its most wayward sons?" before it was revealed at the end that Lorgar, Rerebus anx Kor were Chaos corrupted the entire time.
Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.
Ah, I don't mind him. Correct me if I'm wrong, One, but I get the impression you've read a hell of a lot 40k stuff but not very much of the real world stuff that is its mirror. If you're still in school or college, take an afternoon to browse the history section of your library. Specifically WW2 and the societal changes leading up to it. You'll see a massive crossover.
Also, seriously, get your hands on that Strontium Dog series I mentioned earlier. You'll see the ideas behind early 40k.
Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.
I'm sorry. National socialism and Fascism are kind of the same thing. Sorry for my error.
Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.
Ah, I don't mind him. Correct me if I'm wrong, One, but I get the impression you've read a hell of a lot 40k stuff but not very much of the real world stuff that is its mirror. If you're still in school or college, take an afternoon to browse the history section of your library. Specifically WW2 and the societal changes leading up to it. You'll see a massive crossover.
Also, seriously, get your hands on that Strontium Dog series I mentioned earlier. You'll see the ideas behind early 40k.
I have three books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader and a lot of Horus Heresy books (I haven't read the Forgeworld books or many books that are not Horus Heresy books. You got me there), but I certainly have not read everything about the Horus Heresy, whether it be from the HH books or Forgeworld.
If you are wondering, two of my books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader were Christmas presents and the other was a late birthday present.
That's cool. You've obviously dived head first into the setting. A lot of us here are veterans and have other nerdly interests like military history and stuff. To have stuff posted that seems obviously mistaken makes brows wrinkle. Don't worry about it.
Just take into account my previous post about how writers write and then read the more recent ones about the fundamentally fascist character of the Imperium. You'll realise that the writers are hinting at stuff below the surface of the words and that characters only tell their own truths.
Then sit back and bask in the epiphanic moment when you figure out there are zero good guys in 40k. Every single faction is filled with murderous, bloody-handed, xenophobic, sociopaths.
I think that's why they call it grimdark. What a stupid feckin adjective, by the way.
Banville wrote: That's cool. You've obviously dived head first into the setting. A lot of us here are veterans and have other nerdly interests like military history and stuff. To have stuff posted that seems obviously mistaken makes brows wrinkle. Don't worry about it.
Just take into account my previous post about how writers write and then read the more recent ones about the fundamentally fascist character of the Imperium. You'll realise that the writers are hinting at stuff below the surface of the words and that characters only tell their own truths.
Then sit back and bask in the epiphanic moment when you figure out there are zero good guys in 40k. Every single faction is filled with murderous, bloody-handed, xenophobic, sociopaths.
I think that's why they call it grimdark. What a stupid feckin adjective, by the way.
First Psychopathy and secondary psychopathy get misrepresented in the media. Most psychopaths are not Ted Bundy. And psychopaths are probably not sadistic, since sadism requires empathy (undertstanding how their victims feel).
I love history as well, and military history. Fun fact: Adrian Cronauer is one of my relatives (the disc jokey Robin Williams played in Good Morning Vietnam.)
And check out this video to see how people use the term psychopath incorrectly (and use it far too much).
Bharring wrote: Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.
The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?
The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.
Bharring wrote: Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.
The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?
The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.
Bharring wrote: Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.
The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?
The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.
True. Still a despot, though.
Despot and dictator mean the same thing as autocrat.
Bharring wrote: In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.
Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.
And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.
I feel we have made some head way here while I was at dinner. But onething you need to accept that the emperor wasn’t a good guy. He would do anything to achieve his goal. Yes he believed his goal was to save humanity and give it the galaxy to rule. But he would do anything. When the thunder warriors were not needed they were destroyed, it’s hinted that marines were heading for the same fate, it’s said that he made deals with chaos to achieve his goals, killing an entire planets population for an attempted assassination ( it’s like the US nuking the entire world after 9/11). He exterminated perfectly pleasant and civilised races because they didn’t fit his idea of the master race.
Yes, some people gained from the crusade, many did not. Many were wiped out. In the ensuing civil war many more were killed, and there are arguemnets to lay the heresey at the emperors feet. His message was comply or be destroyed. After conquering a planet he would make them kneel to him and pledge allegiance to him.
After the heresey he sorted it that he would protect humanity from the trouble he had caused by sitting rotting on a throne having millions of people a year sacrificed to keep him alive. He is an unpleasant character responsible for the death of billions and billions of innocent happy souls.
Trump and Obama have both been called tyrants, among other terms. The vast majority of Americans only consider one of the two a tyrant (which one varies quite a bit).
Bharring wrote: In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.
Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.
And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.
That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.
Andykp wrote: I feel we have made some head way here while I was at dinner. But onething you need to accept that the emperor wasn’t a good guy. He would do anything to achieve his goal. Yes he believed his goal was to save humanity and give it the galaxy to rule. But he would do anything. When the thunder warriors were not needed they were destroyed, it’s hinted that marines were heading for the same fate, it’s said that he made deals with chaos to achieve his goals, killing an entire planets population for an attempted assassination ( it’s like the US nuking the entire world after 9/11). He exterminated perfectly pleasant and civilised races because they didn’t fit his idea of the master race.
Yes, some people gained from the crusade, many did not. Many were wiped out. In the ensuing civil war many more were killed, and there are arguemnets to lay the heresey at the emperors feet. His message was comply or be destroyed. After conquering a planet he would make them kneel to him and pledge allegiance to him.
After the heresey he sorted it that he would protect humanity from the trouble he had caused by sitting rotting on a throne having millions of people a year sacrificed to keep him alive. He is an unpleasant character responsible for the death of billions and billions of innocent happy souls.
What 1st edition books have you read?
Hello. I was a bit confused at first, but its been cleared up,
Most did gain from the Crusade since the Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that so many were enslaved by aliens. Did you know the Forgeworld books said the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien slave masters and that aliens were enslaving humans on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter?
Billions isn’t that many. Forget the books. Look at the results of the crusade. The imperium as we know it. That is not great for most people. Yes a few have it cushy but the point of 40k is that there is only war. Everyone is fighting for survival and everything is trying to kill you. The great crusade and the imperium and the emperor created a system where people exist only to serve the state. They are a resource. Expendable and meaningless. The high lords have signed off on the deaths of many many billions and billions of people. They executed whole regiments for cowardice for not following orders when the orders got there after the war was over. They declared whole regiments traitors because they didn’t follow orders when they had been destroyed and an admin error lost that report.
Andykp wrote: Billions isn’t that many. Forget the books. Look at the results of the crusade. The imperium as we know it. That is not great for most people. Yes a few have it cushy but the point of 40k is that there is only war. Everyone is fighting for survival and everything is trying to kill you. The great crusade and the imperium and the emperor created a system where people exist only to serve the state. They are a resource. Expendable and meaningless. The high lords have signed off on the deaths of many many billions and billions of people. They executed whole regiments for cowardice for not following orders when the orders got there after the war was over. They declared whole regiments traitors because they didn’t follow orders when they had been destroyed and an admin error lost that report.
That happened during the Early days of the Crusade, when there were trillions and not quadrillions or quintillions. And it was from Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld. You also have these. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nephilim
And the Laer show the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.
Here's a little anecdote. As part of the anniversary of the 1798 Rising (one of our many, many revolts against British rule until we achieved independence) there was a battle reenactment going on. A society was invited over from England and local lads dressed up as United Irishmen and it was all good fun.
I was invited to do a bit of a reading and a short talk about the whole 1798 thing.
Long story short. Beers were had, stories were swapped. But an interesting thing was said by one of the English reenactors. He sat there in his red coat and pipe clayed belts and he says, 'You know, it's nice to be the bad guys for once.'
Turns out, because he and crew were Napoleonic war reenactors, they were cheered by people in Spain and Belgium and Germany and Holland and Russia. Presumably not in France, though.
So while most of Europe looked on those red coats as saviours, we in Ireland viewed them as oppressors.
And that's because, in real life, there are no real goodies and baddies. It's the narratives we build around them that make them so.
Bharring wrote: So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?
You said everyone thinks they are a hero in their own story.
U are a strange man with a strange mind. It’s an old saying attributed to Churchill but probs wasn’t him. He said history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. And I have all the volumes of his history of the war on my bookshelf and it is fantastic. And he comes out of it very well indeed.
Bharring wrote: So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?
You said everyone thinks they are a hero in their own story.
U are a strange man with a strange mind. It’s an old saying attributed to Churchill but probs wasn’t him. He said history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. And I have all the volumes of his history of the war on my bookshelf and it is fantastic. And he comes out of it very well indeed.
Andykp wrote: Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.
And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.
That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.
The Emperor clearly does have humanity's best interests at heart. He literally wants to save his species and he wants nothing for himself (otherwise he wouldn't have spent the last 10K years rotting on the Golden Throne).
Ironically, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Emperor probably wouldn't describe himself as "good" either. If pressed, he would probably say that he was necessary.
Yes he wants what he thinks is best for humanity but only what he thinks is best. Just like the tyrant of Dulan or hitler did for Germany. Good intentions aren’t the same as being good.
Andykp wrote: Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.
And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.
That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.
The Emperor clearly does have humanity's best interests at heart. He literally wants to save his species and he wants nothing for himself (otherwise he wouldn't have spent the last 10K years rotting on the Golden Throne).
Ironically, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Emperor probably wouldn't describe himself as "good" either. If pressed, he would probably say that he was necessary.
Hitler also thought he was doing good, but he was not.
I’m sure he would’ve said that he was a nessecary evil but he never thought what he wanted wasn’t the right thing when it clearly wasn’t. As formrotting on the throne. His soul is long gone. He doesn’t mind that. He’s the star child. Waiting.
Bharring wrote: In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.
Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.
And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.
That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.
Some of them did think they were doing good, such as Hitler, who was clearly racist and believed in Aryan supremacy.
And while Egypt did have slaves, it was not nearly as bad as other places. And woman were equal in Egypt.
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
Andykp wrote: Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.
Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.
Andykp wrote: Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.
Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.
Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.
Andykp wrote: Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.
Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.
Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.
Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.
Andykp wrote: Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.
Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.
Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.
Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.
With that one quote I've come to the conclusion that this is one massive troll. And a good one at that. Kudos.
Andykp wrote: Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.
No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.
Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.
Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.
Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.
With that one quote I've come to the conclusion that this is one massive troll. And a good one at that. Kudos.
I'm not trolling. And have I learned this when studying real history about ancient Egypt. Slaves did not built the pyramids. That was a myth told by a Greek historian. The Pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were able to strike if they were treated unfairly.
And women were treated pretty well in ancient Egypt, whereas most parts of the ancient world did not.
He is a human with Godlike power, but he is not omnipotent. Dark Imperium even says he is "a human with the power of a god." And have you seen my quote for the Emperor forcing the Word Bearers to kneel? The underlined parts show he clearly did it with his power. And his voice sent the Word Bearers flying.
I think god like is a bit much. He had extreme powers that humans hadn’t had before but he wasn’t a patch on the gods that exist in this setting. If he was godlike he wouldn’t have had to steal from the “real” gods or have been beaten down as he was.
Andykp wrote: I think god like is a bit much. He had extreme powers that humans hadn’t had before but he wasn’t a patch on the gods that exist in this setting. If he was godlike he wouldn’t have had to steal from the “real” gods or have been beaten down as he was.
He has resurrected some Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.
Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.
He can grant immortality as shown in Mechanicum.
And he is the most powerful psychic ever.
We can see that light. Those of us within the Empire of the Eye can actually see it. The Astronomican reaches even to our purgatorial exile, and to us it is no mere mystical radiance illuminating the warp. It is pain, it is fire, and it plunges entire Neverborn worlds into war.
It would be a mistake to believe the Emperor’s power battles the Four Gods’ forces, here. It is not order against chaos, nor anything as crude as ‘good’ against ‘evil’. It is all psychic energy, crashing together in volatile torment.
Most of the Radiant Worlds are uninhabitable, lost in the lethal crash of conflicting psychic energies. Armies of fire angels and flame-wrought projections wage war against everything in their path. We call this region the Firetide. What made the Avernus Breach so valuable was its path, not its destination. It cut through the systems forever bleached bare of life by the Firetide, and into the calmer Radiant Worlds beyond. These are the star systems bathed in psychic light without burning in it.
Entire centuries will pass without a single vessel sailing the region, for it offers little to us beyond yet another example of soul energies manifesting in ways mortals can barely control. On more than one occasion the Mechanicum has sought to use Neverborn spirits bound within arcane flesh-machinery to record the Radiant Worlds in an ever-shifting, evolving map. Such attempts have fared as poorly as you might imagine.
“The spear. My duty.I mustered my strength one last time on the immense weight out there in the void. First I raked back the concealing shroud of Aetheria hiding the spear from sight. The enemy fleet immediately turned their guns upon it.‘Faster, Khayon. Faster.’‘You. Are not. Helping.’‘Launch the spear!’I wrapped it with a strangling grip, feeling every cold contour with the touch of my mind. And then, with every iota of concentration I possessed, I hurled the spear at the world called Harmony.“The Canticle City was prepared to repel assaults, with its skyline of armoured bastions aiming defence turrets and flak cannons towards the heavens. But while fighting back an invasion is one thing, resisting a cataclysm is another. Even in my weakened state I could not resist watching the spear fall, seeing it through the thoughts of the doomed souls on the surface.Daylight died above the Canticle City. Through the wide, upturned eyes of worker menials, pleasure slaves, and III Legion warriors, I saw the gun-battlements light up in helpless rage as a shadow grew in place of the sun. The shrieking hymns broadcast from vox-towers were drowned out by the metal-hammering of defence batteries lighting up the darkening sky. The black shape that swallowed the sun burned as it fell, first aflame with atmospheric entry, then on fire from the rage of the Canticle City’s guns.A crack of thunder split the sky as the falling spear broke the sound barrier. It was no longer falling straight – it rolled as it plummeted, its hull streaming black smoke and its spinal battlements screaming with fire.Less than a minute passed from the moment it entered Harmony’satmosphere to the second it struck the ground. Long enough to let the population see death falling towards them. Not long enough to do anything about it.It smashed into the earth with the force of the War God’s axe. Every eye I had been looking through suddenly went blind. Every sense I had been sharing went dark and cold. From orbit, all we could see was the spreading blackness of choking smoke blooming over the city. Our sensors recorded tectonic unrest grave enough to send tremors rippling across the other side of the world. Harmony itself was heaving with torment.”
-Talon of Horus.
Khayon throwing a starship at a planet so hard it shook the planet and caused tectonic unrest all over Harmony. Before that, he was protecting the ship from the warp with his own power for months on end.
Not sure how he'd stack up against the likes of Asuryan. Or Tzeench. And we have no real idea of how powerful individual Old Ones were.
Such power made Lhaerial’s mind reel, and for a moment her contempt for the creatures of Terra wavered. The mind of the Emperor was a mountain in the surging madness of the Othersea, blinding in its brilliance. The Great Powers circled this place like razorshark waiting out the death throes of a void-whale. That terrible presence held them back, and all His little servants were ignorant of it! Unease gripped her, that she would be noticed by the Dark Gods or their defier, and the fragile flame of her being snuffed out.
The feeling passed. The regard of the things of the Othersea was ossified, so long had they fixed their gaze on the Earth. The Emperor did not shift His regard. His attention was elsewhere, upon the blinding pyre of souls, navigation beacon of the mon-keigh. She had no indication she was seen. There was little relief in that. She had laughed in the face of She Who Thirsts, but the Corpse Emperor filled her with a sense of dread.
He is stronger than the Eldar gods, as this Harlequin was around during the fall and knew what her gods were able to do.
There is no mention in that quote of the Eldar gods - except maybe Cegorath (is the defier of the Dark Gods a reference to him or the Emperor - probably the Emperor).
Also, the Eldar god Harlequins follow (Cegorath) escaped the Fall, and is still alive in present 40k.
This shows the Emperor focusing on a navigation beacon, but that beacon is actually powered by other souls. It's impressive that the navigation beacon can be *seen* from just about anywhere in the galaxy. However, Slanesh is so powerful he/she can *eat souls* anywhere in the galaxy, simultaneously.
Bharring wrote: There is no mention in that quote of the Eldar gods - except maybe Cegorath (is the defier of the Dark Gods a reference to him or the Emperor - probably the Emperor).
Also, the Eldar god Harlequins follow (Cegorath) escaped the Fall, and is still alive in present 40k.
This shows the Emperor focusing on a navigation beacon, but that beacon is actually powered by other souls. It's impressive that the navigation beacon can be *seen* from just about anywhere in the galaxy. However, Slanesh is so powerful he/she can *eat souls* anywhere in the galaxy, simultaneously.
I meant that the Harlequin knew what her gods able to do, as she was there during the fall. And she was scared of the Emperor, but laughed at Slaanesh.
And Daemons do comical things in the warp and Eye of Terror.
Andykp wrote: We really know nothing of the eldar gods so that’s a ridiculous statement. You will be saying he was smarter than an old on next.
The Eldar Gods were eaten by Slaanesh. And the Eldar Gods at their height were as powerful as the Chaos Gods. And the Harlequin was scared of the Emperor, but laughed at the Chaos Gods.
It's been 10,000 years since she "laughed at Slanesh".
All the examples of Empy's super powers are laughably small compared to the Big Four chaos gods. Empy is a much weaker Chaos God than them.
Asuryan was able to seal the Gods away from the Materium. Empy has shown no similar ability.
A single member of the Big Four defeated Asuryan's whole court.
Empy is strong, but he's one of the weaker Chaos Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I laugh at the idea that a comet could destroy Earth itself with astonishingly little notice. But I'm scared of some random nutter driving crazy near me. That nutter isn't stronger than a comet.
Bharring wrote: It's been 10,000 years since she "laughed at Slanesh".
All the examples of Empy's super powers are laughably small compared to the Big Four chaos gods. Empy is a much weaker Chaos God than them.
Asuryan was able to seal the Gods away from the Materium. Empy has shown no similar ability.
A single member of the Big Four defeated Asuryan's whole court.
Empy is strong, but he's one of the weaker Chaos Gods.
When did Asuryan do that? And the quote would show the Emperor is stronger than the Chaos Gods, since the Halrequin.
But you are right. The Emperor doing this-
"'I know who it is,' Argel Tal exhaled the words through clenched teeth. And that's when the voice hit him, hit them all, in a wave of invisible force.
+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it."
And here his voice sends them flying.
"+LORGAR+
The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.
'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'
The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.
'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'
The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.
I am listening, father,' he said."
- Is nothing to Tzeentch doing this.
(Tzeentch has just summoned his most powerful servants to the Warp-trapped planet of Thalossocres)
When Tzeentch spoke, the planet shook. Its crust and mantle were torn off and to theis day, they say, Thalossocres is not one planet but a shoal of drifting continents surrounding a single core. Those not strong enough to hear the wordls of Tzeentch were thrown off into the warp, but the strongest stayed, their courts remaining glorious on the floating shelves of melting stone.Tzeentch spoke to them of impossible things, of the tangled threads of fate that ran through the universe like threads of a tapestry, of the immense shifting components of reality - time, space, the massed minds of humanity and the dozens of alien species that had yet to play their parts, the mindless hordes of predators teeming in the warp, the powers of Chaos themselves. The Greatest of Tzeentch's followers could divine meaning from the stream of concepts the voice of Tzeentch conveyed. Some found intricate plots for them to enact on reality. Others saw glimpses of a future they could alter, or bring to pass. Some saw only desolation and hatred, and revelled in it, for they were the most savage agents of the Change.Some were destroyed, unable to comprehend the majesty of the Change God's vision....Fore days on end, measured in the strange timescale of the warp, Ghargatuloth recieved the revelation of Tzeentch. The other daemon princes looked on in awe, hatred and jelousy. Some were certain that Ghargatuloth would be destroyed. The daemons at his feet were swept aside by the tide of revelations. The substance of Thalassocres was further fractured by the sheer power of Tzeentch. There was a permanent scar left on the warp, a dark barren shadow, but Ghargatuloth remained.
When he got pissed his court were acting like a bunch of drunk teenagers. Back long before apes walked the earth. I believe after the War in Heaven.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Slanesh birthed the Eye of Terror, defeated the entire Eldar pantheon, and completely destroyed the military superpower that ruled the galaxy. And that was just *waking up*.
Empy is likely less than Eldar gods, but is certainly less than the Big Four.
Bharring wrote: When he got pissed his court were acting like a bunch of hooligans. Back long before apes walked the earth. I believe after the War in Heaven.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Slanesh birthed the Eye of Terror, defeated the entire Eldar pantheon, and completely destroyed the military superpower that ruled the galaxy. And that was just *waking up*.
Empy is likely less than Eldar gods, but is certainly less than the Big Four.
And the Eldar Gods at their prime are about as powerful as the Chaos Gods.
I'm not sure where you're seeing that. Nurgle/Tzeench/Khorne aren't talked about much, if at all, during the War in Heaven. Do you have some justification for being so much more powerful during 'their prime', when a single one of the Big Four beat them all easily?
Now, there are far more than 4 Chaos Gods - the Eldar gods were Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork are, and even the Empy might be. But everyone is familiar with the Big Four.
Do you think there was some big change in how strong they were?
Yes, because the Eldar Codex and Dark Eldar Codex say the Eldar Gods were starving over millions of years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: I'm not sure where you're seeing that. Nurgle/Tzeench/Khorne aren't talked about much, if at all, during the War in Heaven. Do you have some justification for being so much more powerful during 'their prime', when a single one of the Big Four beat them all easily?
Now, there are far more than 4 Chaos Gods - the Eldar gods were Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork are, and even the Empy might be. But everyone is familiar with the Big Four.
Do you think there was some big change in how strong they were?
And would you say this is clearly the Emperor forcing the Word Bearers to kneel with his power?
"'I know who it is,' Argel Tal exhaled the words through clenched teeth. And that's when the voice hit him, hit them all, in a wave of invisible force.
+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it."
And here his voice sends them flying.
"+LORGAR+
The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.
'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'
The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.
'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'
The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.
