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Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
This is evidence of the emperors true nature for you onething. The proximan betrayal. A group in insurgents tried to kill him, and he declared exterminatus on the “whole” planet. Nice and reasonable response.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Proximan_Betrayal

That was a rebellion where they tried to kill the Emperor (and of course fail). Not unprovoked.



And pretty much all of that comes from the Forgeworld books. Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld also says the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien overlords. The same book you were using.

Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.

I'm genuinely trying to help, here Onething, because I think you're missing pretty large swathes of dramatic irony in all of this. Your little flag doohickey says you're American. Maybe the whole 'American Irony Blindspot', thing has some merit!

Buy some old 2000ADs. 40k is from the same vintage and carries the same cynical attitude to authoritarianism. Here's a tip, if you read Judge Dredd and think he represents the good guys, you're missing something.

Yeah, I'm American. And the Imperium is feudal, not fascist.

Ah, okay. I see where some of the misunderstanding between you and some other posters is coming from. The Imperium is text book fascism/authoritarianism. In fact the idea for it sprang from a lot of stuff that was happening in Thatcher's Britain. Workers rights being trod on, to a large extent. Racism. Intolerance etc etc. The 80s was often socially rough over here in Europe.

Actually check out Strontium Dog The Final Solution. It's basically the Ecclesiarchy and how it deals with genetic divergence. One of the finest pieces of political satire ever written. I think Abnett wrote for 2000AD, didn't he?

Seriously, you can map Nazi Germany and elements of Stalinism and Italian Fascism straight onto the Imperium.

Where did your concept of it being feudal stem from? I'm genuinely curious.

If someone tries to kill you does that make it fair to punish someone literally on the other side of the planet? No it doesn't unless you're insane.

In the scheme of things that's not that many. A few billion in the entire galaxy.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000

One, please read the bit about Utilitarianism.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000

One, please read the bit about Utilitarianism.

The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long as they pay tithe.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000

One, please read the bit about Utilitarianism.

The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long as they pay tithe.

Which is an element of feudalism, yes. However, taken as a whole, it's extremely obvious that the Imperium is a fascist, totalitarian regime. So obvious I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000

One, please read the bit about Utilitarianism.

The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long as they pay tithe.

Which is an element of feudalism, yes. However, taken as a whole, it's extremely obvious that the Imperium is a fascist, totalitarian regime. So obvious I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.

The Imperium is more of a feudal empire than fascist. Totalitarian would mean it controls everything, and it does not. The Imperium would collapse if it functioned as a real totalitarian fascist regime at the galactic level.

Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Banville wrote:
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.


And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.

You seem to be missing the idea that to be fascist the central government must control every aspect of every planet. It doesn't. Please read the 14 signs of a fascism and please refute that any of them don't apply to the IOM as whole. The only one they don't check number 5, rampant sexism.

https://secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2710

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.


And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.

You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.

Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.


And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.

You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.

Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?

I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.

Nationalsocialism is a kind of fascism, it has all the same basics, the main difference is the holocaust, basically, making german fascism unique. Hitler copied most of Mussolinis strategies and tactics and derived his ideology from british and russian fascists.

How do you Godwin a thread about a character written to be an omnipotent Hitler?

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.


And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.

You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.

Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?

I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.

Same ideology, different name. Like the Carlists in Spain. They put a slightly different emphasis on culturally specific things but in general they were pretty interchangeable. Wherever you heard totalitarianism or fascism etc put a stop to private industry, it isn't accurate. The landlord class in Spain for instance universally backed Franco. Volkswagen prospered under Hitler. FIAT made money under Mussolini etc etc.

Does that help open your eyes a bit?

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Banville wrote:
Yippee! We've found the root of One's confusion. Your understanding of what the Imperium represents us a little off centre.

Totalitarianism is a dictatorial system, demanding complete subservience to the state and the subordination of individual rights in the face of some perceived 'good of the nation'.

The Imperium is absolutely fascist and totalitarian. Feudal systems were characterised by widespread tolerance and cultural cross-pollination. Because it added to the King's coffers. Feudalism was proto-capitalism.

The pursuit of capital is not the same as the Imperium's doctrine of genetic purity and 'death to xenos'.

Nope. The way the Imperium functions is literally how feudal regimes operated. The Imperium cannot control everything and is thus not fascist.


And there are many private companies in the Imperium. Traders operate outside of the Inquisition and Imperium.

You do know that's not how fascism works, right? There were plenty of private companies in Germany after the National Socialists came to power. The same on Franco's Spain. In fact, big business tended to back fascist coups because communism would mean the death of free trade.

Hang on, are you conflating fascism and communism?

I have heard a lot of times that fascism does not have private companies. And Nazy Germany was not fascist, it was national socialist. WW2 Italy was fascist.

Same ideology, different name. Like the Carlists in Spain. They put a slightly different emphasis on culturally specific things but in general they were pretty interchangeable. Wherever you heard totalitarianism or fascism etc put a stop to private industry, it isn't accurate. The landlord class in Spain for instance universally backed Franco. Volkswagen prospered under Hitler. FIAT made money under Mussolini etc etc.

Does that help open your eyes a bit?

Sure, but the Emperor is not really Hitler. He did make concentration camps, for one thing. And the Forgeworld books say the Crusade freed "enslaved billions" from alien overlords. And I understand why the Imperium is xenophobic since the Nephilim.

Bharring wrote:
How do you Godwin a thread about a character written to be an omnipotent Hitler?

This is why we need civics in school.

Onething123456 wrote:

And Nazy Germany was not fascist,

*headdesk*

Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Bharring wrote:
How do you Godwin a thread about a character written to be an omnipotent Hitler?

This is why we need civics in school.

So far I have seen only one example (and from Forgeworld books) of the Imperium crushing a planet, and that was rebel planet that tried to assassinate the Emperor (and failed of course). The Forgeworld books also say the Crusade freed "enslaved billions" from alien overlords and wiped out the alien slavemasters at the moons of Saturn and Jupiter.



When I was reading the Scions of the Storm short story from Tales of Heresy, I knew that Lorgar, Erebus and Kor were lying about the Emperor wanting to wipe out a planet for worshipping him, since one of the Word Bearers at the beginning off the book asked Lorgar, Erebus and Kor "is it not the duty of the Crusade to embrace all the strands of humanity, even its most wayward sons?" before it was revealed at the end that Lorgar, Rerebus anx Kor were Chaos corrupted the entire time.

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

And Nazy Germany was not fascist,

*headdesk*

Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.

Ah, I don't mind him. Correct me if I'm wrong, One, but I get the impression you've read a hell of a lot 40k stuff but not very much of the real world stuff that is its mirror. If you're still in school or college, take an afternoon to browse the history section of your library. Specifically WW2 and the societal changes leading up to it. You'll see a massive crossover.

Also, seriously, get your hands on that Strontium Dog series I mentioned earlier. You'll see the ideas behind early 40k.

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

And Nazy Germany was not fascist,

*headdesk*

Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.

I'm sorry. National socialism and Fascism are kind of the same thing. Sorry for my error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

And Nazy Germany was not fascist,

*headdesk*

Stop posting in the internet now. Go read a pile of history books. Being clueless about 40K is one thing, being this clueless about reality is quite another.

Ah, I don't mind him. Correct me if I'm wrong, One, but I get the impression you've read a hell of a lot 40k stuff but not very much of the real world stuff that is its mirror. If you're still in school or college, take an afternoon to browse the history section of your library. Specifically WW2 and the societal changes leading up to it. You'll see a massive crossover.

Also, seriously, get your hands on that Strontium Dog series I mentioned earlier. You'll see the ideas behind early 40k.

I have three books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader and a lot of Horus Heresy books (I haven't read the Forgeworld books or many books that are not Horus Heresy books. You got me there), but I certainly have not read everything about the Horus Heresy, whether it be from the HH books or Forgeworld.





If you are wondering, two of my books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader were Christmas presents and the other was a late birthday present.

That's cool. You've obviously dived head first into the setting. A lot of us here are veterans and have other nerdly interests like military history and stuff. To have stuff posted that seems obviously mistaken makes brows wrinkle. Don't worry about it.

Just take into account my previous post about how writers write and then read the more recent ones about the fundamentally fascist character of the Imperium. You'll realise that the writers are hinting at stuff below the surface of the words and that characters only tell their own truths.

Then sit back and bask in the epiphanic moment when you figure out there are zero good guys in 40k. Every single faction is filled with murderous, bloody-handed, xenophobic, sociopaths.

I think that's why they call it grimdark. What a stupid feckin adjective, by the way.

Banville wrote:
That's cool. You've obviously dived head first into the setting. A lot of us here are veterans and have other nerdly interests like military history and stuff. To have stuff posted that seems obviously mistaken makes brows wrinkle. Don't worry about it.

Just take into account my previous post about how writers write and then read the more recent ones about the fundamentally fascist character of the Imperium. You'll realise that the writers are hinting at stuff below the surface of the words and that characters only tell their own truths.

Then sit back and bask in the epiphanic moment when you figure out there are zero good guys in 40k. Every single faction is filled with murderous, bloody-handed, xenophobic, sociopaths.

I think that's why they call it grimdark. What a stupid feckin adjective, by the way.

First Psychopathy and secondary psychopathy get misrepresented in the media. Most psychopaths are not Ted Bundy. And psychopaths are probably not sadistic, since sadism requires empathy (undertstanding how their victims feel).



I love history as well, and military history. Fun fact: Adrian Cronauer is one of my relatives (the disc jokey Robin Williams played in Good Morning Vietnam.)



And check out this video to see how people use the term psychopath incorrectly (and use it far too much).




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4svhnIohyTc



And I have read about 20 Horus Heresy books. That is about half of all of them.

I never said anything about psychopaths.

Banville wrote:
I never said anything about psychopaths.

No, but you talked about sociopaths in a textbook sort of way. Psychopaths and sociopaths get misrepresented in the media and Hollywood.






And the Emperor is a lot better than most characters in 40k. He even was cool with Eldrad, as the Beast Arises books show they were buds.

Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.

Bharring wrote:
Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.

The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?



The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.

Onething123456 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.

The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?



The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.

True. Still a despot, though.

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Hillariously, all four meanings - both terms, in both the textbook and colloquial usage - are on display throughout 40k.

The Hollywood version of them and the real deal?



The Emperor displays characteristics of neither. He can be ruthless, but he does have empathy. In The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, he gave Uriah Olathire consolation for his family's murder by Scandian raiders, and knew how he felt.

True. Still a despot, though.

Despot and dictator mean the same thing as autocrat.

In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.