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Bharring wrote:
In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.

Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.



And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.

I feel we have made some head way here while I was at dinner. But onething you need to accept that the emperor wasn’t a good guy. He would do anything to achieve his goal. Yes he believed his goal was to save humanity and give it the galaxy to rule. But he would do anything. When the thunder warriors were not needed they were destroyed, it’s hinted that marines were heading for the same fate, it’s said that he made deals with chaos to achieve his goals, killing an entire planets population for an attempted assassination ( it’s like the US nuking the entire world after 9/11). He exterminated perfectly pleasant and civilised races because they didn’t fit his idea of the master race.

Yes, some people gained from the crusade, many did not. Many were wiped out. In the ensuing civil war many more were killed, and there are arguemnets to lay the heresey at the emperors feet. His message was comply or be destroyed. After conquering a planet he would make them kneel to him and pledge allegiance to him.

After the heresey he sorted it that he would protect humanity from the trouble he had caused by sitting rotting on a throne having millions of people a year sacrificed to keep him alive. He is an unpleasant character responsible for the death of billions and billions of innocent happy souls.

What 1st edition books have you read?

Trump and Obama have both been called tyrants, among other terms. The vast majority of Americans only consider one of the two a tyrant (which one varies quite a bit).

Onething123456 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.

Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.



And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.

That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.

Andykp wrote:
I feel we have made some head way here while I was at dinner. But onething you need to accept that the emperor wasn’t a good guy. He would do anything to achieve his goal. Yes he believed his goal was to save humanity and give it the galaxy to rule. But he would do anything. When the thunder warriors were not needed they were destroyed, it’s hinted that marines were heading for the same fate, it’s said that he made deals with chaos to achieve his goals, killing an entire planets population for an attempted assassination ( it’s like the US nuking the entire world after 9/11). He exterminated perfectly pleasant and civilised races because they didn’t fit his idea of the master race.

Yes, some people gained from the crusade, many did not. Many were wiped out. In the ensuing civil war many more were killed, and there are arguemnets to lay the heresey at the emperors feet. His message was comply or be destroyed. After conquering a planet he would make them kneel to him and pledge allegiance to him.

After the heresey he sorted it that he would protect humanity from the trouble he had caused by sitting rotting on a throne having millions of people a year sacrificed to keep him alive. He is an unpleasant character responsible for the death of billions and billions of innocent happy souls.

What 1st edition books have you read?

Hello. I was a bit confused at first, but its been cleared up,


Most did gain from the Crusade since the Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that so many were enslaved by aliens. Did you know the Forgeworld books said the Crusade "freed enslaved billions" from alien slave masters and that aliens were enslaving humans on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter?

Billions isn’t that many. Forget the books. Look at the results of the crusade. The imperium as we know it. That is not great for most people. Yes a few have it cushy but the point of 40k is that there is only war. Everyone is fighting for survival and everything is trying to kill you. The great crusade and the imperium and the emperor created a system where people exist only to serve the state. They are a resource. Expendable and meaningless. The high lords have signed off on the deaths of many many billions and billions of people. They executed whole regiments for cowardice for not following orders when the orders got there after the war was over. They declared whole regiments traitors because they didn’t follow orders when they had been destroyed and an admin error lost that report.

*Except Orks. Orks fight for fun rather than survival. They're probably the only race in 40k that's happy in general.

They love it. And I them. They were literally made to enjoy the 41st/42nd millennium.

Andykp wrote:
Billions isn’t that many. Forget the books. Look at the results of the crusade. The imperium as we know it. That is not great for most people. Yes a few have it cushy but the point of 40k is that there is only war. Everyone is fighting for survival and everything is trying to kill you. The great crusade and the imperium and the emperor created a system where people exist only to serve the state. They are a resource. Expendable and meaningless. The high lords have signed off on the deaths of many many billions and billions of people. They executed whole regiments for cowardice for not following orders when the orders got there after the war was over. They declared whole regiments traitors because they didn’t follow orders when they had been destroyed and an admin error lost that report.

That happened during the Early days of the Crusade, when there were trillions and not quadrillions or quintillions. And it was from Horus Heresy book one in Forgeworld. You also have these. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nephilim


And the Laer show the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.

Here's a little anecdote. As part of the anniversary of the 1798 Rising (one of our many, many revolts against British rule until we achieved independence) there was a battle reenactment going on. A society was invited over from England and local lads dressed up as United Irishmen and it was all good fun.

I was invited to do a bit of a reading and a short talk about the whole 1798 thing.

Long story short. Beers were had, stories were swapped. But an interesting thing was said by one of the English reenactors. He sat there in his red coat and pipe clayed belts and he says, 'You know, it's nice to be the bad guys for once.'

Turns out, because he and crew were Napoleonic war reenactors, they were cheered by people in Spain and Belgium and Germany and Holland and Russia. Presumably not in France, though.

So while most of Europe looked on those red coats as saviours, we in Ireland viewed them as oppressors.

And that's because, in real life, there are no real goodies and baddies. It's the narratives we build around them that make them so.

"Everyone is a hero in their own story."

Bharring wrote:
"Everyone is a hero in their own story."

Most people think they are. Hitler thought he was.

And history is written by the victors.

So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?

Andykp wrote:
And history is written by the victors.

Haha, no. Are we to say the Holocaust did not happen because the allies won WW2 and wrote the history? (for the most part.)


Watch this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSyCn93CgM8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?

You said everyone thinks they are a hero in their own story.

But I'm not a reliable source. How do you know that what I said is true?

Bharring wrote:
But I'm not a reliable source. How do you know that what I said is true?

I have heard that quote many times before. Hitler was clearly racist and thought he was doing good. The Confederates believed in white supremacy.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
And history is written by the victors.

Haha, no. Are we to say the Holocaust did not happen because the allies won WW2 and wrote the history? (for the most part.)


Watch this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSyCn93CgM8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?

You said everyone thinks they are a hero in their own story.

U are a strange man with a strange mind. It’s an old saying attributed to Churchill but probs wasn’t him. He said history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. And I have all the volumes of his history of the war on my bookshelf and it is fantastic. And he comes out of it very well indeed.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
And history is written by the victors.

Haha, no. Are we to say the Holocaust did not happen because the allies won WW2 and wrote the history? (for the most part.)


Watch this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSyCn93CgM8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So why does the Empy thinking himself a hero - or Horus thinking it - make him a hero?

You said everyone thinks they are a hero in their own story.

U are a strange man with a strange mind. It’s an old saying attributed to Churchill but probs wasn’t him. He said history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. And I have all the volumes of his history of the war on my bookshelf and it is fantastic. And he comes out of it very well indeed.

If you say so.

Andykp wrote:
Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.

And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.

That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.

The Emperor clearly does have humanity's best interests at heart. He literally wants to save his species and he wants nothing for himself (otherwise he wouldn't have spent the last 10K years rotting on the Golden Throne).

Ironically, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Emperor probably wouldn't describe himself as "good" either. If pressed, he would probably say that he was necessary.

Yes he wants what he thinks is best for humanity but only what he thinks is best. Just like the tyrant of Dulan or hitler did for Germany. Good intentions aren’t the same as being good.

 Karhedron wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.

And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.

That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.

The Emperor clearly does have humanity's best interests at heart. He literally wants to save his species and he wants nothing for himself (otherwise he wouldn't have spent the last 10K years rotting on the Golden Throne).

Ironically, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Emperor probably wouldn't describe himself as "good" either. If pressed, he would probably say that he was necessary.

Hitler also thought he was doing good, but he was not.






Despot and Dictator the same thing as autocrat.

I’m sure he would’ve said that he was a nessecary evil but he never thought what he wanted wasn’t the right thing when it clearly wasn’t. As formrotting on the throne. His soul is long gone. He doesn’t mind that. He’s the star child. Waiting.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
In the same way that douchebag and jerk mean the same thing as person.

Despots and dictators are not inherently bad. The Egyptian Pharaohs were called despots, and Julius Caesar was appointed "dictator" for life,.



And Julius Caesar did not commit genocide. What he did was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemies of the Roman republic.

That’s a matter of perspective. If you were a slave in Egypt they weren’t very nice. If you were a Britton or Gaul occupied and subjugated by Caesar he was a right baddie. Despots and dictators tend not to have the people’s best interests at heart. Despite what they say.

Some of them did think they were doing good, such as Hitler, who was clearly racist and believed in Aryan supremacy.



And while Egypt did have slaves, it was not nearly as bad as other places. And woman were equal in Egypt.

Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

Andykp wrote:
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.



Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.



Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.

Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.



Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.

Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.

Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.



Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.

Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.

Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.

With that one quote I've come to the conclusion that this is one massive troll. And a good one at that. Kudos.

Banville wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Tell that to the slaves. “Don’t worry your are being whipped and worked to death, it’s worse elsewhere! And women slaves, you’re equal to the men ones!” Don’t talk daft. They were horrible. Lovely for a few. Rotten for most.

No, it wasn't. The Egyptian pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were permitted to go on strike.



Egypt was one of the few places in the ancient world where women had equality.

Who mentioned pyramids? I’m on about a society with privileged rulers, meanial underlings and slaves. Actual slaves. Any idea how horrible being a slave must be, I don’t thankfully I can only imagine and doubt that even comes close.

Egypt was a pretty nice place to live. And Egypt had slaves, but mostly only in certain occupations.

With that one quote I've come to the conclusion that this is one massive troll. And a good one at that. Kudos.

I'm not trolling. And have I learned this when studying real history about ancient Egypt. Slaves did not built the pyramids. That was a myth told by a Greek historian. The Pyramids were mostly built by paid workers who were able to strike if they were treated unfairly.


And women were treated pretty well in ancient Egypt, whereas most parts of the ancient world did not.