Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Mortal Pius was only in old fluff.

And that fluff has not vanished.

Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subredditAs for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

the ancient wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit
Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

Or 50k years worth of memories were already fracturing.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subredditAs for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

I think even they know that. Which is why theyve mostly been killed off.

But thats not to say he wasnt gene enhanced back in the doat. Or his Molech trip happened why back then.
I guess its more curious that people think that. But I guess they know more than we do.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead.

Dude, you made a a writing error. You forgot a question mark. Just a quick heads ups.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?

But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....

Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Perpetuals aren't some infallible source of facts, nothing is in 40k - thats part of the 40k universe, every possiblity can be correct one, if there even is one and not all information given is absolute.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?

But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....

Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

Voltstagge on reddit said why he thinks the Perpetuals are well written.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

Voltstagge on reddit said why he thinks the Perpetuals are well written.

I thought you said they weren't well written. I think they are well written. Regardless who is Voltstagge and why should I listen to his opinion?

Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.

1) The process doesn’t require an Exarch. 8E Codex makes that explicitly clear.
2) Perpetuals grow back. Phoenix Lords *must* die to do their respawning. They are *not* immortal. Given enough time a Phoenix Lord can die of old age.

If you can’t wrap your head around the difference between regrowing a limb and having to die, then steal another body, this conversation is over.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
This is from a subreddit so take it with a grain of salt:

" Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation."
Also this:
"Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them."

Take it for what it is, but Emps sure likes gold a lot - so whenever he's talking about his own past he could be lying, or he could just have false memories and doesn't know what he is himself.

As for Perpetuals - they are the absolutely worst bit of lore ever introduced to 40k, and so I for sure ain't gonna believe a single thing they say or is said about them.

Whatever the case, its more fun to speculate and theorise, rather than get some lame answer from GW that would just leave people unsatisfied. GW might not be that good at fluff in general, but it is good at creating fun mysteries that let the imagination run wild.

The Perpetuals disprove he was made in the DAOT. You are ignoring the Perpetuals? They are part of the lore, whether you want it to be or not. And that woman in Master of Mankind was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away from her by Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. of course she is going to say stuff such as that.

Perpetuals are a horrible idea - the worst bit of 40k lore ever. Absolutely horrible , Ollanius Pius is a Man, not some magic highlander bollocks - as such I'm going to draw the 'Unreliable narrator card' -card, and just ignore them - just like I'm ignoring Grey Knight killing Sisters to use their blood as psychic shield. Perpetuals are just some in-universe historians crazy theory, the same way "Orks aren't born but pop in to existence from a dimension made of Orks" is an in-universe theory(yes, that exists) or the cover art for Caiphas Cain novels with Cain as a brawny muscleman are in-universe posters for inaccurate movies made from his adventures.

Well the Emperor is a perpetual, he's immortal, so why would it be so hard for other humans to be perpetuals, why is that bad lore. Plus perpetuals can be created like the Cabal did to John Grammaticus, he had to rely on there technology to come back from the dead. You find perpetuals hard to deal with, then what about daemons, saying they are the worst lore ever is just absurd to me. Is this a 'I don't want to share my toys' thing, do you collect Eldar and only want the Phoenix lords to be perpetuals?

But the Phoenix Lords aren't Perpetuals.....

Perpetuals are bad lore because you're literally picking a character to be unkillable except plot. It's writing plot armour with less honesty.

The Phoenix lords are, as long as they have a exarch near them when they die, they can live forever. Perpetuals are not unkillable, they can all be killed with special weapons like anathame's, plus the Emperor was most likely a perpetual, he's pretty much dead. Vulken survived a blow from the fulgarite anathame but he's a Primarch, basically a super perpetual, but they are without doubt not unkillable, its written in plenty places that they are not unkillable.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Phoenix lords are as long as they have a axarch near them, when they die they can live forever.

That's not how Phoenix Lords work.

It is in path of the warrior. That's how Karandras came back after being killed by a SM dreadnought.

You misunderstand. The way Phoenix Lords “come back” is fundamentally different from the perpetuals. They don’t regenerate.

Instead, their souls go dormant in their armor till a compatible Eldar host puts it on. Then they consume that host and take over the body. They’re effectively parasites.

Destroy the spirit stones on Asurmen’s shiny hat and he ain’t coming back.

No I didn't, I said they come back using exarchs. its you that didn't know that. They are the same as perpetuals in that they are immortal, I never said they were the same in the way they become immortal or achieve immortality. All a perpetual means is an immortal. Some are born perpetuals but like John Grammaticus he was made a perpetual. There is nothing inherently special about them other than that they are immortal.

1) The process doesn’t require an Exarch. 8E Codex makes that explicitly clear.
2) Perpetuals grow back. Phoenix Lords *must* die to do their respawning. They are *not* immortal. Given enough time a Phoenix Lord can die of old age.

If you can’t wrap your head around the difference between regrowing a limb and having to die, then steal another body, this conversation is over.

pm713 wrote:
The Asurmen, Hand of Asuryan novel has a Black Guardian do it.

Andykp wrote:


These Horus heresy novels really are making a mess of the setting 10000 years after they are set. I’m happy to ignore them or take anything they say as rumour. And again. I’m allowed to.

It isn’t grim dark.