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Engrenages wrote:

It isn’t grim dark.

I'd argue it is quite grimdark.

Cyrene having her soul basically played with by demons for a year before being brought back to see what the Word Bearers have become.
Vulkan being tortured to the point of madness by Kurze.
Grammaticus being so jaded by his immortality that he commits suicide by sending himself to outerspace through an airlock in the hope that he will truly die. Because of his immortality he doesn't even allow himself to love, yet he yearns for it.

Being immortal in 40k is just as gakky as being mortal/dead. The doom of immortality can be found in many tragedies and stories.

It’s lazy writing really. Not being able to love is a long way feommgrim darkness. Your average imperial citizen wouldn’t have much sympathy for that. The guardsman facing an 8 foot ORK wouldn’t feelmyomsorry for him. It all very Hollywood and weak in comparison.

“I just want to live someone.” Gramaticus

“I have spent my entire short miserable life toiling in a hive, never seeing the light of day, getting so many work related diseases that my face fell off, seeing my children executed for having six fingers on one hand, eating only the recycled protein of my dead fellow hive dwellers, only to have the hive infested with demons who ate my soul and tormented me for enternity. But you didn’t get a cuddle! Bless.”

Grammaticus' biggest issue isn't being unable to love, it's having to help in the extermination of humanity.
And yeah the meaningless toil of infite billions is way worse.


OT: Master of Mankind does a relatively good job of showing how evil the Emperor/the custodians are when you start to look at it.

"Let no corner of humanity stand free?" ,The whole 13th scene, An eye for an eye as the purest concept of justice.

What's the 13th scene?

I wonder whether it isn't intentional and or better to ignore the origins of the emperor lorewise, to the extend that he is quite a mysterious being and that trait renforces his pseudo-divineness.

In any case he's not immortal since the throne machinery keeps him alive. If he were, he could eventually get along without it, if the perpetuals are supposed to regenerate. Well or maybe he will and age of the emprah will be a thing.

I personnally dislike immortal things in 40k. It really reads like a commonplace plot armour and even in 40k it tends to sometimes get truly silly to my taste. Partial immortality through warp, tehcnology and so on is already quite great and over the top, plus it's not that rare I believe.

Arkhan Land's flashback about Angron primarch of the thirteenth legion. The Emperor is a touch on the cold side.

You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

Because it takes away the peril. And that that’s the point of the grim dark future, everything is trying to kill you. It’s all scary. Unless you are immortal. In which case it’s just dull.

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.



Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.

Doesn’t matter what books you read it’s still dull. Deadpool the film to me was dull because he couldn’t be killed. The end fight between to unkillable characters was pointless. A rare one in a million chance to have your immortality removed isn’t the same as everything in the universe trying to kill u.

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.

Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.

The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.

Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.

The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.

Daemon Princes keep coming back.



And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.

Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.

The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.

Daemon Princes keep coming back.

And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.

Yes but they're forced out for thousands of years in some cases and face punishment for failing. Plus there are lots (compared to Perpetuals) of weapons to kill them.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
You have a problem with immortality in 40k? Why? Its a blend of sci fi and magic fantasy. The Emperor is indisputably immortal. So are the Perpetuals.

It's boring. There's no risk or anything. Vulkan fighting a giant lava beast is cool unless he can't possibly lose.

Perpetuals can have their immortality taken away. Perpetual Oll Persson was worried when being hunted by a Daemon because he would not come back.

Which doesn't really make sense. Why would a demon make it go away? Even with that they have to stop being immortal to be interesting.

Read Know No Fear and Mark of Calth. And Vulkan had his Perpetual power taken away.

Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once mortals.

The difference is a Demon Prince can be killed and there are consequences for them being defeated.

Daemon Princes keep coming back.

And I made that other thread showing the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power.

Yes but they're forced out for thousands of years in some cases and face punishment for failing. Plus there are lots (compared to Perpetuals) of weapons to kill them.

I did not know there were many ways to do that.


And the Imperium's actions are understandable. Its lives in a brutal universe. The Horus Heresy novels show almost all aliens were hostile (Horus in Horus Rising said the Interex was the first alien co-existence they came across, and thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex). Plus, the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.)

U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

Andykp wrote:
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.

The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.



Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.

A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.

Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.

What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.

A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.

Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.

What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.

The Age of Strife shows they were not doing well.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.



Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

Of course he is. He is a genocidal dictator who ran his empire through a cult of personality and brutal oppression. Anyone who disagreed with him was destroyed. Stalin or hitler? Take your pick. I think Stalin fits better and I’m right about the bob.

If the rule was don’t let dangerous aliens live if they could destroy us, fine. But it’s dont let any alien live. Ever. That’s a bit extreme. Stalinesque.

Not all planets met during the great crusade were liberated from alien overlords. Human worlds that were self governing were told to join the imperium or be made to. Nice. Not like Stalin at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.

A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.

Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.

What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.

The Age of Strife shows they not doing well.

What do you mean?

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.



Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

Of course he is. He is a genocidal dictator who ran his empire through a cult of personality and brutal oppression. Anyone who disagreed with him was destroyed. Stalin or hitler? Take your pick. I think Stalin fits better and I’m right about the bob.

If the rule was don’t let dangerous aliens live if they could destroy us, fine. But it’s dont let any alien live. Ever. That’s a bit extreme. Stalinesque.

Not all planets met during the great crusade were liberated from alien overlords. Human worlds that were self governing were told to join the imperium or be made to. Nice. Not like Stalin at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
U can’t compare demons to immortal mortals. Demons exist on a different plane from mortals and perpetuals. Their weakness is that they can’t exist in the maeterial universe without a host or summoning. So their existence in universe is very fragile. In the warp they are permenant but that means nothing in the warp as time is irrelevant. Not dull.

A human who if Killed will come back. Dull.

And the weakness of Perpetuals is that most of them are normal aside from Perpetual immortality. And you can take away a Perpetual's immortality.

A demon can be thrown out of the universe in any number of ways, there existence is fleeting at best. That affects all they do. They can’t conquor or hold territory or plan lengthy campaigns. They have to plot and plan how to be brought into being and then strike.

Perpetuals as the name says are around a long time. Die and come back again and again. It’s not easy for them to lose their powers. The whole point of the universe is that it is a horrible place to be human. I’m happy that space marines are “functionally” immortal but are killed like anyone else. They have real jeopardy. Perpetuals dint.

What I have never understood is why they were needed at all. The universe worked perfectly well without them and they add nothing to the game, so what is the point. Were they just invented by black library so the emperor had some friends from way back? It just seems silly to me and unnecessary. They add nothing to 40k. And that is the point to 30k stories. They set the scene for 40k the game.

The Age of Strife shows they not doing well.

What do you mean?

The Emperor did not put up brutal oppression. Prove it. Don't keep meme-ing. I have read roughly 20 Horus Heresy books, and he is mostly nothing of what you say.. Life in the 30k Imperium was pretty nice.




Take this quote from Horus Rising.



Horus smiled. 'At last, a thinking man.' He rose to his feet and, carrying his cup carefully, walked across to the right-hand wall of the stateroom, a section of which had been richly decorated with a mural. The painting showed the Emperor, ascendant above all, catching the spinning constellations in his outstretched hand. 'The stars,' Horus said. 'See, there? How he scoops them up? The zodiacs swirl into his grasp like fireflies. The stars are mankind's birthright. That's what he told me. That's one of the first things he told me when we met. I was like a child then, raised up from nothing. He set me at his side, and pointed to the heavens. Those points of light, he said, are what we have been waiting generations to master. Imagine, Horus, every one a human culture, every one a realm of beauty and magnificence, free from strife, free from war, free from bloodshed and the tyrannous oppression of alien overlords. Make no mistake, he said, and they will be ours.






And Tales of Heresy shows that life in the 30k Imperium was nice.




So the Emperor conquered planets that refused to join? That does not make him Stalin. Alexander the Great conquered, the Romans did it, the Persians did it, and so on. And did you that the Persian empire under Xerxes was closer to a modern western government than any place in Greece? They still conquered.

@Firstly I will point out the flaw in your quote. And say I don’t know what meme-ing is. But the quote. The emperor told horus that the stars were their birth right. They were the true race that should live in the universe. U say that to show that the emperor wasn’t a tyrant. Hitler said exactly the same thing about Eastern Europe. He claimed it was the birth right of the German people as the master race.

As for a quote i will get back to you shortly. Don’t have quotes at hand but won’t take me long to find a human world put to the sword by uncle joe the emperor for the greater good of humanity.

Andykp wrote:
@Firstly I will point out the flaw in your quote. And say I don’t know what meme-ing is. But the quote. The emperor told horus that the stars were their birth right. They were the true race that should live in the universe. U say that to show that the emperor wasn’t a tyrant. Hitler said exactly the same thing about Eastern Europe. He claimed it was the birth right of the German people as the master race.

As for a quote i will get back to you shortly. Don’t have quotes at hand but won’t take me long to find a human world put to the sword by uncle joe the emperor for the greater good of humanity.

No, the underlined part shows that there was prosperity in the Imperium, and was not a bad place to live. It was nice to live, not a hellhole.


And Hitler was clearly racist and believed in Aryan supremacy. The Confederates believed in white supremacy.


Go ahead if it is real. The Emperor is basically a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II from Dune.

The underlined part shows that the man in charge expressed to his right-hand man that there would propserity in the Imperium. Once they conquer everyone.

It's surprisingly remeniscent of Stalin. Wouldn't he make similar claims?

Bharring wrote:
The underlined part shows that the man in charge expressed to his right-hand man that there would propserity in the Imperium. Once they conquer everyone.

It's surprisingly remeniscent of Stalin. Wouldn't he make similar claims?

First, he 30k Imperium was a great place to live. Not horrible.


And second, the quote was happening near the end of the Crusade when Horus was Warmaster. There is already prosperity in the Imperium. The Emperor did reject religion and believed it held back humanity in Tales of Heresy



And what do you make of this quote below?


"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.

Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.

Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.

Your quotes keep showing how horrible the great crusade was. And if you really believe all was lovely in the imperium around the time of the great crusade then you need to read more books. Twenty hasn’t taught you anything. Back to Cali an again, it was a nice, warptainted feudal civilisation, lush green forests and thanks to Lionel Johnson free of evil monsters. It was nice. After the emperor came along it was turned into a hive littered industrial complex feeding the emperors war machine being choked with pollution. Yay.