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pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.

Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.

Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.

The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.






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Andykp wrote:
Your quotes keep showing how horrible the great crusade was. And if you really believe all was lovely in the imperium around the time of the great crusade then you need to read more books. Twenty hasn’t taught you anything. Back to Cali an again, it was a nice, warptainted feudal civilisation, lush green forests and thanks to Lionel Johnson free of evil monsters. It was nice. After the emperor came along it was turned into a hive littered industrial complex feeding the emperors war machine being choked with pollution. Yay.

Your'e reading comprehension sucks. The quote from Age of Darkness showed that Remus (a Marine) was horrified at how barbaric Angron was. And it said that any civilized code of war would deem abhorrent what Angron did. Not the Emperor's doing, it was Angron. Everyone else in the Imperium condemned the World Eaters for what happened in my quote.

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.

Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.

Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.

The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.

Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.

Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.

Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.

The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.

Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.

The vast majority WERE saved from alien oppressors. Horus makes it terribly clear that every alien before the Interex was hostile. Can you prove I'm wrong? Why is that so many things I've heard about the Emperor tuned out to be not true after reading the Horus Heresy books? Almost all aliens were hostile. And the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens.



And did you know in the same book the Diasporex appeared in the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate? Strange. The Diasporex was entirely Ferrus' doing. The Emperor had nothing to do with it.

Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.


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Angron wise, yes remus didn’t like it but it happened in the emperors name and worse did too. And who designed angron, who was his commander? Who’s side was he fighting for?

The dominant empire in the galaxy had been destroyed just prior to the Great Crusade.

Reconsider this statement:
"Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens."

If believing they were comparable/equal to humans is a capitol offense, that's not some enlightened egalitarian mindset. That's a domineering racist mindset. Both "They're beneath us" and "They don't deserve to live" fit the model that the Imperium is the evil empire - neither paint the rosy picture you're trying to paint.

Andykp wrote:
Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.

The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.



That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.

There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.


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The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.

There are goodies. They're just seconds away from:
-Execution
-Demon possession
-Becoming food
-More execution
-Enslavement
-Torture
-...

Andykp wrote:
There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.

And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.





The Emperor seems to be an alright guy after reading about 20 Horus Heresy books myself. But he is arrogant and thinks he is right. Even in The Last Church, he came off as arrogant, but he was still an alright guy. Uriah belived what he said about the Emperor wanting to enlighten humanity under the Imperial Truth, but did want part in it.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.

The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.



That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.

you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The imperiums actions are utterly barbaric and only justifiable to the crazed zealots who run it. Even the emperor was Stalin with a bob hairdo. Humans lived without the imperium quite successfully. Not all of them. The whole issue with Luther turning traitor was because of what they had done to Cali an in the name of progress. (I know there was more to it but it was an issue). The exterminating all aliens, “all” is harsh. Some are nice. Same with mutants. It’s just extreme. Psykers is more understandable because they are dangerous. The treatment of normal humans isn’t understandable at all.

No, the Emperor is not. Stop meme-ing. And do you realize the Imperium is brutal because it lives in a brutal universe? You think we could do better? Take the Genestealers. Genestealers would bring down the Imperium if it wasn't for the xenophobia.

Not really. Humans did not live well without the Imperium. Some rose up, but the Age of Strife messed things up.

The Genestealers really wouldn't do that. The Imperium is one of the few places to suffer from Genestealer cults.

Post Age of Strife some humans lived very well, some were middle ground and some had it terribly. Now almost everyone has it terribly and a few lucky peeps get the middle ground.

The Emperor saved the vast majority of humans after the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books and Horus Heresy books show that life was horrible before that.

Eh. I wouldn't say saved in most cases. Some people got forced into a brutal dictatorship, some were genuinely saved from evil aliens, some were "saved" from the aliens protecting them and some were "saved" from their lovely coexistence with the people around them. The Heresy books are all from the point of view of the Imperium who are pretty culty about how right they are. Look at what the people being shot are like. One culture literally has "we just wanted to be left alone" as their final words. Doesn't sound like they were oppressed.

The vast majority WERE saved from alien oppressors. Horus makes it terribly clear that every alien before the Interex was hostile. Can you prove I'm wrong? Why is that so many things I've heard about the Emperor tuned out to be not true after reading the Horus Heresy books? Almost all aliens were hostile. And the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were aliens.

And did you know in the same book the Diasporex appeared in the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate? Strange. The Diasporex was entirely Ferrus' doing. The Emperor had nothing to do with it.

You're saying that the Emperor who established every goal and law of the Imperium had nothing to do with the campaign of "join or die"?

The dulan Leader was the copy of the emperor. So I are saying the emperor was an evil tyrant?

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.

And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.

Citation needed.

From lexicanium. U look it up.

The Faash believed themselves an enlightened civilisation, emerging from the barbarism of an 'age of horrors' under the guidance of Durath, whom the Imperium called the Tyrant of Dulan. They abhorred the alien, the mutant, and the heretic.[1c] sounds familiar.

Well, the Horus Heresy liberated countless lives from the tyranny of the Imperium. I'd still call most of the Traitor Legions evil.

(Their primary means of liberation was death, after all.)

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.

And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.

Citation needed.

The imperium called him the tyrant of dulan so he must be!

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.

The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.



That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.

you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.

I haven't debunked a thing? That one example of a human civilzation you named was being ruled by an evil tyrant, and was liberated by the Imperium. I'd day I debunked it when pointing that out.

Bharring wrote:
Well, the Horus Heresy liberated countless lives from the tyranny of the Imperium. I'd still call most of the Traitor Legions evil.

(Their primary means of liberation was death, after all.)

Very good. ^^^^^

You've only made a claim by fiat: he's called an evil tyrant by the empire that overthrew him and took his place. You haven't shown that a neutral party would consider him either evil or a tyrant. You also haven't shown how his empire was less evil and/or tyranical than Big E's.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Here you go. Names and places. The Dulan campaign. The faash were humans run by a bloke who had convinced them he was their saviour and had lead them out of barbarism. He was frail and week and sustained by his technology. They refused to join the empire as they had their own. They were destroyed. The leader had his head chopped off by Lionel Johnson after he sucker punched leman Russ. Even though he was pretty much a carbon copy of the emperor as we know him now. They had many planets and possibly systems. Were technologically advanced and not ruled by aliens. 870?.M30. One of many human civilisations destroyed by the great crusades.

The Dulan were ruled by a evil tyrant, and were freed.



That's one example. The other one you named was not legit. You guys are mostly making things up. Very few civilizations were destroyed. Try naming them. I'll debunk pretty much all of them.

you haven’t debunked a thing and can’t because you are so wrong it’s funny. It’s like the coalition freeing the Iraqi people. One delivery of freedom over there. The great crusade was a war to unite people under the emperors flag, regardless of weather they wanted to be or not.

I haven't debunked a thing? That one example of a human civilzation you named was being ruled by an evil tyrant, and was liberated by the Imperium. I'd day I debunked it when pointing that out.

I refer unto my point above about how the “tyrant” was a copy of the emperor. So you must be wrong. Either the emperor is a tyrant or the other fellow isn’t.

Bharring wrote:
You've only made a claim by fiat: he's called an evil tyrant by the empire that overthrew him and took his place. You haven't shown that a neutral party would consider him either evil or a tyrant. You also haven't shown how his empire was less evil and/or tyranical than Big E's.

There. You see the Imperium liberated it.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dulan

By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Andykp wrote:
By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?

I'm seeing no points presented in that link that discuss the relative evilness of that empire vs the IoM.

The closest reference to how enlightened or egalitarian that empire are are:
-THere's a throneworld - so a central world from which it's ruled (see: Holy Terra - so certainly no worse than IoM)
-It was ruled by an individual with a suggestion that they had complete power (see: Empy - again, certainly no worse than IoM)

So that link provides no evidence to your point.

Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?

Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.

Andykp wrote:
Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?

Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.

Really? I'd say I do since I showed lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There is so much more to the imperium than in the HH or FW books. They give you a snap shot. It’s a big galaxy. The thing is, there aren’t any goodies in 40k. It’s all baddies. Just different types. The emperor didn’t liberate humanity, he enslaved it to his idea of what was best. Now it’s a truly horrible place to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The leader of the faash people on dulan were ruled by a copy of the emperor.

And the Dulan leader was an evil tyrant (tyrant in the classical sense was the same thing as autocrat) who the Imperium liberated the place from.

Citation needed.

No problem.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dulan


Are you satisfied?

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?

Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.

Really? I'd say I do since I showed lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

That’s great but there is more to it than the books you’ve read. There are 30years of background and ideas that have gone into it. If you think the emperor was nice and liberated people you have missed the point and need to keep reading.


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Take the Keylekid for example. They sound quite nice and no threat to the imperium at all. Wiped out in a really underhand way. Nice policy of extermination there.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Humans living on a planet called earth who were lead by an old man who had led them from barbarism and who hated mutants, aliens and psykers. He had to be kept alive he was so old. Liberated by the imperium. Hmmmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
By their standards. The people weren’t happy about it. They were happy as they were.

Alright. But we are getting off topic. What did you think of my quotes and links when I put up this thread?

Utter rubbish. U dint seem to know much about the emperor as a concept at all.

Really? I'd say I do since I showed lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

That’s great but there is more to it than the books you’ve read. There are 30years of background and ideas that have gone into it. If you think the emperor was nice and liberated people you have missed the point and need to keep reading.

The Emperor mostly did do that. Of course he conquered some planets.

Honestly? No. I looked at Lexicanum before asking for citation and a summary is that the Imperium found a culture that wasn't subservient and immediately conquered them. Nothing in that suggests the ruler was a Tyrant. I had the impression they were a nice enough self sustaining world that was invaded because they were there.

Nothing but the Imperium's say so makes them seem harsh at all.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Galaspar Ooh. Liberated.