Company Commander Stays as-is, except instead of getting the Refractor for free, it's now an optional 10 point upgrade.
Tank Commander No changes yet.
Lord Commissars Refractor Field is now a 10 point upgrade. In addition, Summary Execution now halves Morale losses, rounding up.
Tempestor Prime Good as-is.
Primaris Psyker Good as-is.
Infantry Squad Mandatory Voxes, for 45 point guard squads.
Conscripts No grenades. 6+ armor. Auxilia unit, so no orders or regimental tactics. But back down to 3 points.
Scions Good as-is.
Master of Ordnance Good as-is.
Platoon Commander As with all other Refractor Field models, it is now a 10 point upgrade.
Command Squad Add a Veteran Bodyguard to the squad. Costs 6 points, has 2 attacks and comes with a Chainsword, Laspistol, and Frag Grenades. Can take damage from friendly Guard characters on a 4+ like an Ogryn Bodyguard can.
Special Weapons Squad Instead of "Three models must," make it "Three models may," so that way you can have more ablative wounds if you want.
Veterans Move to troops, Give a 4+ armor.
Tempestus Command Squad Good as-is. Might want to tweak plasma pricing though.
Minisotrum Priest Allow to be taken in twos, but deployed and acting separately, like Space Marine Lieutenants.
Crusaders Good as-is, or at least, I don't know what to do with them.
Enginseers For every two Servitors within 3" of this model, add one to the amount of wounds regained, to a max of +2 wounds regained (1d3+2 for Guard vehicles, 3 for Knights).
Servitors See Enginseer.
Commissar See Lord Commissar.
Officer Of The Fleet I don't even know where to start.
Wyrdvane Psykers Good enough as-is.
Astropath Good as-is.
Ogryn Bodyguard Good as-is.
Ogryns Make Ripper Guns AP-1 in shooting, and either AP-2 in CC or AP-1 and D2.
Bullgryns Good as-is.
Ratlings Find The Best Spot is now 12", not 18".
Hellhounds Hhllhounds are good as-is.
Devil Dogs get straight 3 shots on their cannon.
Banewolves get 3d3 shots and D2 with their main cannon.
Scout Sentinels Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.
Armored Sentinel Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.
Heavy Weapons Squad Good as-is, or at least, I don't know how to fix their incredible glass cannon nature.
Basilisks Minor price hike, probably.
Wyverns Price drop, AP-1 on the mortar, or both.
Hydras Maybe a price drop.
Manticore Minor price hike, probably.
Deathstrike Turn into an expensive stratagem. It does not belong on the table.
Leman Russes Exterminator gets 8 shots, not 4.
Price increase.
Chimera Allow up to two models to shoot out the top in addition to the arrays.
Allow officers to issue orders from within, treating themselves as if they had a Vox.
So, I haven't addressed the Baneblades or unique characters. But I feel this is a good start for an overhaul of IG. If anyone has suggestions (preferably simple ones, and not crazy complicated ones) I'm all ears.
Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with. If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well. Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
This does mean that Scions would need to be tweaked, but a big part of that could come into the form of allowing for them to have an Invulnerable Save or a FNP thanks to the automedic system the armor is fluffed as having.
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Not everyone else has two models pulled from the squad to form a single 2W model either. You'll note that if it gets treated as vehicle squadrons it would mean Rule of 3 comes into play and they can only be taken 3 times tops. Keep them limited to 3 Heavy Weapon Teams per Squad and flatout remove the option for HWTs from Infantry Squads and voila it's not as ridiculous as you think.
Also note that "unable to move" means that placement is key.
I’d say the only real problem with Guard is that infantry squads are 5 to 10 points undercosted, and everything else could probably use a 5% increase in cost.
Every codex could use some internal balance tweaks, but from a competitive standpoint some codices have caught up to being top tier quality with Guard. A small bump in pricing across the board would smooth the edges, I think.
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
Do you mean to say that these guys:
Spoiler:
and this guy:
Spoiler:
Have the same amount of armor?
Besides the fact that the skitarii are part robot, they also have a full torso armor plate, a groin plate, knee plates and thigh guards. And I'm pretty sure that is a helmet.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Marines are a whole 'nother can of worms.
But yeah, that'd be fine. Reivers need love.
Fluff-wise, things that are AP -2 include weapons with power fields both imperial and xenos in nature, inferno bolts that are basically magical, and various heavy weapons. Unless there's a lot more to a ripper gun's bayonet than I know, giving it significant AP seems a bit odd. Is there a mechanical argument for it? I was under the impression that ogryn were pretty decent as-is.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Marines are a whole 'nother can of worms.
But yeah, that'd be fine. Reivers need love.
Fluff-wise, things that are AP -2 include weapons with power fields both imperial and xenos in nature, inferno bolts that are basically magical, and various heavy weapons. Unless there's a lot more to a ripper gun's bayonet than I know, giving it significant AP seems a bit odd. Is there a mechanical argument for it? I was under the impression that ogryn were pretty decent as-is.
Bullgryns are good. Ogryns less so.
Maybe just stick to damage 2, but at AP-1? Or even damage d2.
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
This does mean that Scions would need to be tweaked, but a big part of that could come into the form of allowing for them to have an Invulnerable Save or a FNP thanks to the automedic system the armor is fluffed as having.
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Not everyone else has two models pulled from the squad to form a single 2W model either. You'll note that if it gets treated as vehicle squadrons it would mean Rule of 3 comes into play and they can only be taken 3 times tops. Keep them limited to 3 Heavy Weapon Teams per Squad and flatout remove the option for HWTs from Infantry Squads and voila it's not as ridiculous as you think.
Also note that "unable to move" means that placement is key.
I haven’t heard of this armor automedic thing? Where did you find that? All I was aware of was that Scion had a unique medpack with quick prosthetics.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
There are a LOT of giant knives in 40k and they don’t have ap-2. Ones with magic or power fields might. Basic ones, no. Basic CC weapons like big knives have no ap. so this is just trying to make a unit function better but ignoring the fluff of them. It’d be a bit like fly because they’d be better with it. (Silly comparison I know but it makes my point, sorry).
I haven’t heard of this armor automedic thing? Where did you find that? All I was aware of was that Scion had a unique medpack with quick prosthetics.
It's been floated in a few places like the Tempestus novella and was hinted at in the Tempestus codex.
The thing on their forearm that has the appearance of a dataslate is called the "slate monitron" and gives them instant access to their Tempestor's orders, intelligence, and it in exchange lets him monitor their vitals and activate dispensers in their armor for stimms and other combat drugs.
Besides the fact that the skitarii are part robot, they also have a full torso armor plate, a groin plate, knee plates and thigh guards. And I'm pretty sure that is a helmet.
Have you built any Rangers?
No, that is not a helmet. It's a gas mask. The Vanguard have a helmet though. They don't actually have a "full torso armor plate"--it's on the upper torso and the lower torso is bionics. The groin plate is part of those bionics. The knee plates are part of their bionic legs and the thigh guards are only covering the front.
The "part robot" bit is represented by their Bionics' 6+ Invulnerable Save.
Most of the things that are a problem with the Guard book aren't a problem with the Guard book, they're a cross-book balance problem with the Imperium in general. Primaris Psykers, for instance, may not be an actual problem but I find them annoying because I'm paying 3x their cost for a Marine Librarian to get +1 S, +1 T, +1 cast per turn, +2 armour, worse powers, and no Invulnerable save.
No, that is not a helmet. It's a gas mask. The Vanguard have a helmet though. They don't actually have a "full torso armor plate"--it's on the upper torso and the lower torso is bionics. The groin plate is part of those bionics. The knee plates are part of their bionic legs and the thigh guards are only covering the front.
The "part robot" bit is represented by their Bionics' 6+ Invulnerable Save.
I'm currently painting some. And the torso is a full armor plate and not just bionics. You can see the overlapping plates from the belt up. The groin plate is still a groin plate, the knee plates are not part of their bionic legs, they are over the fleshy knees, and even if they were over the bionics, it's still armor protecting the bionics and not the bionics itself. And thigh guards offer more than Scions have. Oh, they also have elbow pads, they're just usually under the cloak but you can see them on some.
So, no. I don't see them as having the same amount of armor as guardsmen.
Basilisks
- Point increase
- Slight drop in weapon stats, or ditch "2D6 pick highest"
Commissars
- Changes to Morale, "ignore casualties in the shooting phase" or "half number of casualties lost to Morale" would be good.
Infantry Squads
- Ability to take more than 10 in a squad without needing Strategems
- Give the Sergeant a Lasgun!
Conscripts
- Drop back to 3pts
- Lose <Regiment> keyword, but no problems for the rest of the detachment.
Leman Russ
- Vanquisher Cannon goes to S9, +1 to hit against Vehicles
Veterans
- Autogun becomes S4 Ap- Assault 2
- Shotgun becomes S3 Ap-1, S4 in half range
- Option to take 4+ armour or some sort of Infiltrate/move bonus.
This way, the Autoguns have an advantage over the Lasgun, but lose out on amount of firepower from FRFSRF. Shotgun gains a point of Ap so it doesn't become obsolete against the Autogun.
Autoguns going to S4 AP- changes Cultists and Genestealer Cultists. Nope. There is no reason to change the door prize for people converting crap into being better than the hallmark gun of the Guard.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Conscripts getting Auxilia has been suggested time and time again. That alone would be a huge deal; making it so they're not able to fulfill a Mandatory Troops Slot kills any potential CP battery nonsense with them going back to 3pts each...
And giving them a 6+ save and Autoguns is even better to pigeonhole them into the role they're supposed to have, which is untested recruits or pressganged civilians.
We don't need anything to allow for bigger squads. Nobody I know that isn't trying to play Guard as "Lulz WWII/WWI!" wants that.
Kanluwen wrote: Autoguns going to S4 AP- changes Cultists and Genestealer Cultists. Nope. There is no reason to change the door prize for people converting crap into being better than the hallmark gun of the Guard.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Conscripts getting Auxilia has been suggested time and time again. That alone would be a huge deal; making it so they're not able to fulfill a Mandatory Troops Slot kills any potential CP battery nonsense with them going back to 3pts each...
And giving them a 6+ save and Autoguns is even better to pigeonhole them into the role they're supposed to have, which is untested recruits or pressganged civilians.
We don't need anything to allow for bigger squads. Nobody I know that isn't trying to play Guard as "Lulz WWII/WWI!" wants that.
Conscripts are your "big" squads.
I agree with the majority of your statements, though personally I feel like Vets should NOT have access to hotshot lasguns. Giving them access to a 4+ save already steps on the Scions' toes a LOT. At this point, there's not much to differentiate them besides regimental traits and Scions being able to deep strike. Vets basically should be what they were before in 5th ed and choose between being Grenadiers (4+ save), Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare Mines, the Snare Mines being a rule that causes D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6 per enemy unit who charge the unit in cover) and Demolitions (Melta bombs for the unit and a demo charge).
I agree with the majority of your statements, though personally I feel like Vets should NOT have access to hotshot lasguns. Giving them access to a 4+ save already steps on the Scions' toes a LOT. At this point, there's not much to differentiate them besides regimental traits and Scions being able to deep strike.
They absolutely should get access to Hellguns. Grenadiers were an actual unit selection rather than a "Veteran loadout" before the Cruddace-ening of the Guard book. They were Stormtroopers without access to DS/Infiltrate. That alone makes it so they don't step too much on the Scions' toes--and let's be frank, Scions could use a bit of a reconcepting as well.
I've suggested before that Veterans(and basic Guard Infantry Squads) get access to some more interesting Heavy Weapons(note: not Heavy Weapons Teams) that would further allow for a differentiating. Since they've been so adamant to try to paint Hotshot Lasguns as their own thing compared to Hellguns now, we might as well just make the Hellguns for Veterans exactly that: a different weapon entirely.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Would it be better to simply introduce a unit called Grenadiers that do all that and just move veterans back to troops, and adjust their price relative to IS?
The Grenadiers could then be used as the more generic term for things like Karskin while also allowing the other regiments to use it.
The core difference between them and Scions would be no deepstrike, but access to some sweet grenades, basically super versions of frag and krak, and being incorporated into regiments. So while Scions are the lone wolves way up front, the grenadiers work with the other troops.
Also, I thought hellguns and hot-shot lasguns were still the same thing. My memory might be faulty, but I think hellguns are referenced under the scion background section in the codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?
Yes, but they've changed a bit. Waay back they were S4 lasguns, then they were just S3 AP5, then they became S3 AP3 which gave us the current version. Hellguns and Hot-shot lasguns have always been synonymous IIRC.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?
Yep, but Cruddace opened the door for some differentiation. They removed the text referring to the Scions' weaponry as "hellguns"(it took two editions! they missed a reference to it in the copy/paste for Stormtroopers from the Doctrines to first Cruddace book and copy/pasted the same bit from Stormtroopers to Scions) and removed it from the Krieg Grenadiers this edition.
I've been looking at Hellguns as an option that's a sidestep from Hotshots and standard Lasguns
Something like this:
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2
Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?
Yep, but Cruddace opened the door for some differentiation. They removed the text referring to the Scions' weaponry as "hellguns"(it took two editions! they missed a reference to it in the copy/paste for Stormtroopers from the Doctrines to first Cruddace book and copy/pasted the same bit from Stormtroopers to Scions) and removed it from the Krieg Grenadiers this edition.
I've been looking at Hellguns as an option that's a sidestep from Hotshots and standard Lasguns
Something like this:
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2
Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.
Check my Scion list in the army list page. Besides the 3 suicide plasma squads (plus arguable 4th suicide melta squad) its just super killy.
Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's NOT a sidestep as long as they would have S4. It's a straight upgrade.
Ehh...I'd say it's a sidestep when considering Rapid Fire and the additional AP.
Look at the two profiles side by side: S4 AP-1 Assault 2 S3 AP-2 Rapid Fire 1
Are you absolutely certain that's a sidestep?
Sidestep is the wrong term I guess. Sidegrade? Alternative PewPew?
In this case, the Veterans would have a point higher strength a point less of AP and are Assault weapons(meaning Advance+Fire is a possibility) offering a more mobile unit that can still put out decent fire while being able to tank it as well thanks to the 4+ saves.
The Scions on the other hand have higher AP but less Strength, can benefit from FRFSRF, and are Rapid Fire allowing for a bit more of a variable slide as to how many shots they put out(especially if someone runs them as pure Tempestus allowing for their Regimental Trait to be in play).
I realize you might disagree with me here, but I've actually put a decent amount of thinking and concepting into play on the stuff that I personally want done for Guard. It probably will come to nothing though since GW seems to want to just keep the status quo.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.
Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=2 shots at 9", with FRFSRF bumping the number of shots up. Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+. Scions can DS if you so choose to.
Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.
Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:
I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.
Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=
2 shots at 9"
FRFSRF doubles the number.
Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+.
Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.
Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:
I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.
And SM players would love see termies as remotely viable in ANY slot, even if it may be HQ or LoW.
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2 makes hotshot a "sidestep" to a master crafted boltguns available only to Hq's. That's a pretty big toe you're suggesting to step on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it makes more sense to give MT's a bit more model range and separate it as a standalone codex, much like how harlequins work.
Maybe a new flyer transport/variant of valkyrie and a new fast attack option.
skchsan wrote: And SM players would love see termies as remotely viable in ANY slot, even if it may be HQ or LoW.
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2 makes hotshot a "sidestep" to a master crafted boltguns available only to Hq's. That's a pretty big toe you're suggesting to step on.
Guard don't have master-crafted boltguns. Nothing I've said prevents Terminators from becoming viable. You want to talk about Terminators, there's a thread.
For the record? I've thought that an additional Wound and them treating multi-damage weapons as 1 damage and treating AP as being a point less than it is would be a good step.
I think it makes more sense to give MT's a bit more model range and separate it as a standalone codex, much like how harlequins work.
We had a standalone Codex. It was a farce, with every Formation requiring a Commissar and only having Squads available while the Guard proper fielded Scions in platoons.
And I mean really, if any faction "makes more sense" to get a Codex...it's the fricking Skitarii. The literal only thing they were missing was an HQ. That's it. They're a far more complete army than Cult Mechanicus is and yet like Scions, they got rolled in.
Maybe a new flyer transport/variant of valkyrie and a new fast attack option.
We don't need more Valkyrie variants.
Worth noting that I've suggested a Scions variant on the Sentinel and Scion Heavy Weapons Squads if we absolutely have to make them a thing.
But also we could just make Taurox Primes into FA options or HS options.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.
Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=2 shots at 9", with FRFSRF bumping the number of shots up.
Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+.
Scions can DS if you so choose to.
Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.
Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:
I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.
Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.
Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.
Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.
Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.
If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?
It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.
Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.
Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.
If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?
It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.
To be fair, SM's also have veterans that serve no purpose other than becoming ablative wounds with look-out-sir's.
AM having redundant entry in the form of veterans have no argumentative strength. If anything, they have the most useful 'veterans' in the game IMO - they're cheap carriers of special weapons at the tax of extra ablative wounds.
Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.
Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.
If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?
It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.
To be fair, SM's also have veterans that serve no purpose other than becoming ablative wounds with look-out-sir's.
I'm going to assume you're talking about Command Squads here. Right?
Because Command Squads, in general, are a different kettle of fish. It's an issue across quite a few books(including Guard amusingly enough...) right now that they don't do a whole lot.
AM having redundant entry in the form of veterans have no argumentative strength. If anything, they have the most useful 'veterans' in the game IMO - they're cheap carriers of special weapons at the tax of extra ablative wounds.
You're confusing a "redundant entry in the form of veterans" with something else entirely.
If you want "to be fair" then you need to factor in that you have access to Sternguard Squads, which are whole units made up of Veterans potentially able to carry Combi-Weapons for the whole squad to get a Special Weapon and their standard Boltgun.
Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.
Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.
If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?
It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.
Which is why you make their base weapon more worth taking. You'd basically double their range with my fix, which is pretty stellar if you ask me.
JNAProductions wrote: Company Commander Stays as-is, except instead of getting the Refractor for free, it's now an optional 10 point upgrade.
I would rather keep the free refactor field and have a 4+ save as a 5 pt upgrade.
JNAProductions wrote: Lord Commissars Refractor Field is now a 10 point upgrade. In addition, Summary Execution now halves Morale losses, rounding up.
I would rather keep the free refactor field. Comissar rule needs to be "on a failed morale test, execute one model and redo the morale test without adding the die roll" worst case scenario is you break even.
This is not a nerf, this is a sidegrade. Guard infantry needs to be 5ppm, sorry but it's true.
JNAProductions wrote: Conscripts No grenades. 6+ armor. Auxilia unit, so no orders or regimental tactics. But back down to 3 points.
They are fine at 4ppm if normal guardsmen are 5ppm. I would rather have them lose orders completely but get back their old unit size of 20-50, and retain regimental tag for traits. Valhallan conscripts should be hard to remove.
I would rather have them cheaper and lose the ability to deepstrike. Then they can buy 'grav chutes' to put them back at their old price if you want. It is pointless to take dedicated transports for stormtroopers when you are paying for their deepstrike abilities as part of their cost. I would also like them to be elites, with the option to take them as troops so long as your detachment is entirely militarum tempestus (apart from commissars/advisers).
JNAProductions wrote: Platoon Commander As with all other Refractor Field models, it is now a 10 point upgrade.
Platoon commanders shouldn't get refactor fields, but they should retrain the ability to buy carapace armor for 5 points. They should be moved to HQ and you should have to buy 3 for a single HQ choice.
JNAProductions wrote: Special Weapons Squad Instead of "Three models must," make it "Three models may," so that way you can have more ablative wounds if you want.
Agreed on the moving to troops, but stormtroopers have the +4 armor and it would be interfering with their niche. Veterans should stay as they are, but with the ability to upgrade with camo cloaks + snare mines for 10 points. This way, you can have an army of veterans for 6ppm, or make them a bit more specialist for 7ppm. Catachans would probably run whole armies of these.
JNAProductions wrote: Minisotrum Priest Allow to be taken in twos, but deployed and acting separately, like Space Marine Lieutenants.
They should also get a "skirmishers" rule that allows them to move and shoot their heavy weapons without the -1 penalty. It's a nice little buff without making them overpowered, and right now a plasma cannon armored sentinel is useless unless it is standing still.
JNAProductions wrote: Heavy Weapons Squad Good as-is, or at least, I don't know how to fix their incredible glass cannon nature.
They should be 15 points base (for a squad without weapons) with a special rule that gives them +1 armor save when in cover (like camo cloaks, but call it "sandbag empacements" or something). Missile Launchers should be 16 points per, there is no reason to take one when lascannons and mortars exist.
They need a 10 points price drop and lose the -1 to hit for shooting at ground units.
JNAProductions wrote: Chimera Allow up to two models to shoot out the top in addition to the arrays.
Allow officers to issue orders from within, treating themselves as if they had a Vox.
No on the first. We don't need drive by chimeras anymore, that was incredibly stupid.
Yes on the second, absolutely agreed.
They also need a points drop.
Everything else I either agreed with or felt no particular way about.
One more to add to the mix: Voxes should give your orders infinite range, not +12".
An Actual Englishman wrote: Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...
Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.
What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...
Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.
Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems. Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.
Its not going to happen and honestly it shouldn't.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...
Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.
What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...
Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.
...lol?
Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems.
That's nice. Good to know that you think Grots are going to be garbage no matter what.
Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.
What do you think Commissars do? Because they don't "halve morale losses". They don't put a cap into how many guys you can lose from Morale. They haven't done that since the beatstick that they received at the book's first FAQ. It took roughly a year for us to get this dumpsterfire ability:
Summary Execution:
The first time an Astra Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars, you can execute a model. If you do, one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model when re-rolling the Morale test)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...
Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.
What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...
Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.
...lol?
Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems.
That's nice. Good to know that you think Grots are going to be garbage no matter what.
Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.
What do you think Commissars do? Because they don't "halve morale losses". They don't put a cap into how many guys you can lose from Morale. They haven't done that since the beatstick that they received at the book's first FAQ. It took roughly a year for us to get this dumpsterfire ability:
Summary Execution:
The first time an Astra Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars, you can execute a model. If you do, one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model when re-rolling the Morale test)
Read* what I wrote again.
I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.
I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.
What you wrote is snark that attempts to pretend like Conscripts would become amazing.
I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.
Except they're not. The proposed Conscripts here lose access to Orders and Regimental Tactics by gaining the "Auxilia" keyword(which replaces <Regiment>, but you should know that right?) and also lose their Grenades.
Since Conscripts currently are BS5+ WS5+ T3 models with a 5+ save...they become BS5+ WS5+ T3 6+.
Gretchin still have higher BS and will likely retain their ability to get +1 to their hit rolls for being taken in large numbers.
I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.
Conscripts don't halve morale losses in either case, it's a Commissar ability.
What you wrote is snark that attempts to pretend like Conscripts would become amazing.
I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.
Except they're not. The proposed Conscripts here lose access to Orders and Regimental Tactics by gaining the "Auxilia" keyword(which replaces <Regiment>, but you should know that right?) and also lose their Grenades.
Since Conscripts currently are BS5+ WS5+ T3 models with a 5+ save...they become BS5+ WS5+ T3 6+.
Gretchin still have higher BS and will likely retain their ability to get +1 to their hit rolls for being taken in large numbers.
I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.
Conscripts don't halve morale losses in either case, it's a Commissar ability.
Yes I know what auxillia means, particularly since the OP posted the meaning in their post.
Wow, Conscripts lose a few abilities. They're still flat better than gretchin at 3ppm.
Post their proposed stats, including weaponry.
Post the gretchin stats including weaponry.
Compare and explain how you reason they aren't better.
Martel732 wrote: No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.
The fact that you can say this with a straight face proves that you have no interest in balance and won't be happy until guard have been nerfed into the ground.
You want a Primaris Psyker - who can cast a single spell per turn and is T3 with no save and no other meaningful abilities or weapons - to cost just 9pts less than a Psyker with better toughness, a 3++, Fly, the ability to heal off wounds caused, an aura buff for itself and similar units, an aura debuff for enemy psykers, and which can cast 2 powers per turn.
Get stuffed.
You have shown time and again that you don't want to see IG balanced, you just want to see them ruined. You won't be happy until every last model in the book is overcosted beyond all reason.
Yes I know what auxillia means, particularly since the OP posted the meaning in their post.
Wow, Conscripts lose a few abilities. They're still flat better than gretchin at 3ppm.
Post their proposed stats, including weaponry.
Post the gretchin stats including weaponry.
Compare and explain how you reason they aren't better.
Conscripts:
6" WS/BS 5+ S3 T3 1W 1A LD4 6+ save
Unit starts at 20 models, can have an additional 10 to max out at 30.
Lasgun(which would be their only weapon once Frag Grenades are removed) 24" Rapid Fire 1 S3 AP0 1D
Removing <Regiment> means Raw Recruits(receives Orders on a 4+) can be removed, since they can't have Officers with Auxilia.
Gretchin:
5" WS5+ BS4+ S2 T2 1W 1A LD4 6+
Unit starts at 10 models, can have an additional 20. Presumably retains "Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers"(unit including 20+ models adds 1 to their Hit rolls)
Grot Blasta 12" Pistol 1 S3 AP0 1D
<Clan>
Do you really need me to hold your hand through why having <Clan> is better than Auxilia? Do you really need me to explain that I've not said Gretchin are better than Conscripts, but rather I'm refuting your nonsensical stance that the changes suggested still make Conscripts somehow a ridiculously better choice?
Martel732 wrote: No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.
The fact that you can say this with a straight face proves that you have no interest in balance and won't be happy until guard have been nerfed into the ground.
You want a Primaris Psyker - who can cast a single spell per turn and is T3 with no save and no other meaningful abilities or weapons - to cost just 9pts less than a Psyker with better toughness, a 3++, Fly, the ability to heal off wounds caused, an aura buff for itself and similar units, an aura debuff for enemy psykers, and which can cast 2 powers per turn.
Get stuffed.
You have shown time and again that you don't want to see IG balanced, you just want to see them ruined. You won't be happy until every last model in the book is overcosted beyond all reason.
Well fact of the matter is that external balance (as in, between codex, game overall) is currently measured by the value of AM, CWE, DE & IK, and how they fair against each other. Anything in between (bar nids because they have the best internal balance so far in all the codex, maybe not so much best/OP units in the game). currently suffers from being overcosted & underperforming via special rules.
We either tone down the extremes to average or we make the average into extremes.
It's not a AM witch hunt - the external balance is severely broken and needs addressing, and guards, IK, and DE are the places to start.
skchsan wrote: Well fact of the matter is that external balance (as in, between codex, game overall) is currently measured by the value of AM, CWE, DE & IK, and how they fair against each other.
Except that it's actually measured by souped messes of armies which use IG as CP batteries. Or Eldar-soup armies based around Doom.
skchsan wrote: We either tone down the extremes to average or we make the average into extremes.
Except that no one wants to tone down the primary offender - which is the ally rules.
So instead people just pick random units, call them overpowered (because they're in one of the armies they gets used in Soup) and demand that they be nerfed. It doesn't matter if the unit clearly isn't overpowered, just pick random units and smack them with the nerf bat until they're worthless. That's the way to do balance.
skchsan wrote: the external balance is severely broken and needs addressing, and guards, IK, and DE are the places to start.
Why? Again, why aren't allies being fixed first? They are what is common to every winning tournament list, yet apparently they're som sort of sacred cow that must remain broken at the expense of everything else.
What's more, no one wants to address synergy in any way. For example, I notice Dark Eldar is on your list, but not Eldar. Why not? Where, in all this talk of fixing balance problems, is Doom? It should, at the very least, only apply to Eldar (not Dark Eldar or Harlequin) units attacking the target.
Nerfing Dark Eldar because Ravagers are too strong when you have Eldar allies to cast Doom just mandates that every Dark Eldar player bring an Eldar Farseer to cast Doom, since that will be the only way to make his Ravagers worth their cost.
This sort of thing is why I can demonstrably say that it is an AM witchhunt. Because the people purporting to want to address the balance, conveniently choose to "fix" (read: nerf into uselessness) every unit except the ones actually causing the issues.
If I were called in to help rewrite the IG book, I'd focus on the following things:
-Encourage mono-guard, while allowing them to ally meaningfully (No more CP batteries)
-Bring more units into the limelight
-tone down the handful of things that are too strong.
To that end, here would be my propsed changes:
A new army rule- Combined Arms: An Astra Miliatrum Battalion will give 0 CP unless it contains at least one selection from Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.
Bump Company commanders up to 35pts.
Give Lord Comissars a version of "get back in the fight" that can be stacked with other orders, bring back old summary execution, repoint accordingly
Conscripts: keep as is, but they will work well with original summary execution
Chimera: Drop 10pts or so
Sentinels: Make chainsaws +2 Attack, AP -1 D2 for +5pts
Devil Dog: Make melta cannon Assault 2 with reroll wounds
Banewolf: May fire cannon as a pistol
Commissar: bring back original summary execution
Ogryn: Drop cost 5ppm
Heavy Weapon Squads: Allow "platoons" of 1-3 per selection. Increase to 10pts per team, but are -1 to being hit unless they are the closest target, and cannot be targeted until they fire, unless they are the closest target.
Vanquisher: Increase main gun to Heavy 2, +10pts
Exterminator: Increase main gun to Heavy 8 +10pts
Eradicator: Increase main gun to Heavy 2d6, +20pts
Demolisher: -20 pts
Basilisk: +10pts
Manticore: +5pts
Wyvern: -15pts
Hydra: As long it does not move, the Hydra ignores all penalties to hit.
Think of it this way: ALL the books suffer from codex creep one way or another. In the order of release, their rough effectiveness in the competitiveness:
1. SM: Possibly competitive - maybe 1 or 2 possible builds for friendly competitive
2. CSM: Less than likely competitive - not sure after Forward operative nerf - the only thing CSM had going
3. GK: Who?
4. DG: Possibly competitive - rule of three crippled DG 5. AdMech: Less than likely competitive - few decent units; special rules & unit synergy is weak.
6. AM: Highly competitive - they have everything needed for a decent list - board-wide range no LOS weapons, CP farm, board control, expendable W
7. CWE: Competitive - effectiveness reduced by rule of three
8. Tyranids: Competitive - rule of three crippled certain win-all builds, but still highly competitive with no set cookie cutter army build. Players often get caught off guard rather that outplayed by nid player though.
9. BA: Possibly competitive - only thing they have going is smash captain. flying lib dread sounded cool pre-release.
10. DA: Possibly competitive - few decent builds revolving CT and rerolls, but otherwise severely limited in build - maybe 2 or 3 working lists
11. Daemons: I know not much so I won't comment.
12. Custodes: Competitive - the only true "elite" army in the game currently - great offense, great defense, built-in MW mitigation
13. Tsons: Possibly competitive - I've heard some good stuff about them but same as daemons.
14. Tau: Possibly competitive - very weak internal balance, handful of good units.
15. Necrons: Possibly competitive - workable synergy, limited amount of builds, overcosted
16. DE: Highly competitive - current codex structure makes it possible to combine three different armies with part being playing a solid part. Great internal balance, synergy, stratagems, special rules. Currently best mono-faction army.
17. Deathwatch: n/a
18. IK: Competitive - not so great as mono-faction but often the center piece of the standard AM+IK+Flavor of the month imperium. Deals alot of damage, best distraction carnifex in the game that actually kills stuff.
19. Harlequins- no comment.
20. SW: Possibly competitive - still not sold on the whole uber-priest on calvary thing.
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
Martel732 wrote: No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.
The fact that you can say this with a straight face proves that you have no interest in balance and won't be happy until guard have been nerfed into the ground.
You want a Primaris Psyker - who can cast a single spell per turn and is T3 with no save and no other meaningful abilities or weapons - to cost just 9pts less than a Psyker with better toughness, a 3++, Fly, the ability to heal off wounds caused, an aura buff for itself and similar units, an aura debuff for enemy psykers, and which can cast 2 powers per turn.
Get stuffed.
You have shown time and again that you don't want to see IG balanced, you just want to see them ruined. You won't be happy until every last model in the book is overcosted beyond all reason.
47 pts is too cheap for access to full powered smite, as well as +1 armor and -1 to hit spells. And that's from someone who uses them. I'm using these units now and I STILL think they should be nerfed signficantly. Because they are no-brainer choices, and no-brainer choices shouldn't exist. Defensive stats don't matter b/c of the magical character force barrier. And these bastards have force weapons. I've finished off plenty of T7 vehicles with them in CC. I'd never take a gakky ass librarian when I can get two of these guys. No brainer. More denies, more options, same casts, more wounds, can hold two objectives.
How about you get stuffed for not taking the absurdity of the IG codex seriously? 30 pts to double TWO squads firepower? Really? IG players are truly the Eldar players of 8th.
And, yes, it's getting to the point that I don't want to see an IG model for a long time. Because they are EVERYWHERE, including my own fething lists. By necessity.
Doctrines:
Cadia gives Born Soldiers ability to Mordia under, new rule is that any time a Cadian unit uses Voice of Command or Tank Commander, they may issue two orders to the same unit.
Catachan: Relic becomes D3, replace "vicious traps" with Catachan Devils: 1CP, target Catachan unit rerolls all hit and wound rolls in close combat. Change "Burn it out" to instead make all flamers or heavy flamers roll 2d6 for hits.
Tallarn: change Ambush to count units as having moved, but only slightly, drop cost to 2CP. Allow Claw of Desert Tiger's bearer to advance and charge.
Vostroyan: Add to "Repel the Enemy" that the squad gets +1 to hit with pistols and combat attacks.
Valhallan: Replace Grim Demeanor with Grim Toughness - All Valhallan units gain +1 toughness. Replace "Send in the Next wave" with "Ignore Wounds" - 5+++ FNP for an infantry squad (not conscripts).
Mordian: replace parade drill with born soldiers - reroll ones if you stand still.
Armageddon: add to industrial efficiency: Armageddon officers can issue orders while embarked in Chimeras, and Armageddon Infantry squads can fire out of Chimeras"
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
We know what it is. It's people complaining about CP batteries but refusing to admit it.
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
We know what it is. It's people complaining about CP batteries but refusing to admit it.
And yet none of the "mono-guard armies will be ruined if you make guardsmen 5 ppm" has yet to give us non-mono-guard players exactly how your army will be crippled if guardsmen go up to 5 ppm.
Let's not forget that super tough gak in this game is T8. But the IG has TWO platforms that fire indirectly with strength greater than 8 for less than each are less than 150 pts. WTF?
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
We know what it is. It's people complaining about CP batteries but refusing to admit it.
And yet none of the "mono-guard armies will be ruined if you make guardsmen 5 ppm" has yet to give us non-mono-guard players exactly how your army will be crippled if guardsmen go up to 5 ppm.
Sounds like all bark and no bite.
People HAVE explained it. You just refuse to listen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: Weapons:
Mortar: unchanged, but heavy weapon squads cost more for little help to the mortar
Just make it so it can't be taken by Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads and give it a rule where it can't be fired if the HWT moved.
Doctrines:
Cadia gives Born Soldiers ability to Mordia under, new rule is that any time a Cadian unit uses Voice of Command or Tank Commander, they may issue two orders to the same unit.
So you want to give them the same thing as a Relic, instead of a useful ability...and give their currently useful ability to one that already has a fairly decent one?
Armageddon: add to industrial efficiency: Armageddon officers can issue orders while embarked in Chimeras, and Armageddon Infantry squads can fire out of Chimeras"
No. Those just need to be made mandatory parts of the Chimera. The Chimera isn't really worth its points right now.
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
We know what it is. It's people complaining about CP batteries but refusing to admit it.
And yet none of the "mono-guard armies will be ruined if you make guardsmen 5 ppm" has yet to give us non-mono-guard players exactly how your army will be crippled if guardsmen go up to 5 ppm.
Sounds like all bark and no bite.
People HAVE explained it. You just refuse to listen.
Link please - or at least in the right direction. My search in Army List, General Discussion nor Proposed Rules aren't yielding anything/one giving an example of army lists that gets crippled by increase in 30~120 pt in their army.
Link please - or at least in the right direction. My search in Army List, General Discussion nor Proposed Rules aren't yielding anything/one giving an example of army lists that gets crippled by increase in 30~120 pt in their army.
Then you're not reading, because people have explained how doing this won't do gak to soup but will be detrimental to mono-Guard.
You can go on ignore like Martel from now on though.
In total of 20 codex and 15 codex after release, AM is still under fire of cry for nerfs. There has to be something about AM that people are overlooking/ignoring how broken DE and Xenos soup is right now.
We know what it is. It's people complaining about CP batteries but refusing to admit it.
And yet none of the "mono-guard armies will be ruined if you make guardsmen 5 ppm" has yet to give us non-mono-guard players exactly how your army will be crippled if guardsmen go up to 5 ppm.
Sounds like all bark and no bite.
People HAVE explained it. You just refuse to listen.
Link please - or at least in the right direction. My search in Army List, General Discussion nor Proposed Rules aren't yielding anything/one giving an example of army lists that gets crippled by increase in 30~120 pt in their army.
Link please - or at least in the right direction. My search in Army List, General Discussion nor Proposed Rules aren't yielding anything/one giving an example of army lists that gets crippled by increase in 30~120 pt in their army.
Then you're not reading, because people have explained how doing this won't do gak to soup but will be detrimental to mono-Guard.
You can go on ignore like Martel from now on though.
I know you get very sentimental when it comes to nerfing guard in anyway, but I'm not trying to be confrontational and demanding a proof of your statement. I'm actually genuinely curious as to the effect of changes that 30~120 pts increase has on an army to a point of crippling it.
I play primarily DA and the last CA nerf on the dark talons increased points on my army by 60 points. I had to take out a HB on the scouts and 1 less RBK and another toy, but I don't feel that my army is no longer playable because of the 60 pt increase.
My friend and I theorycraft with battlescribe - we draft up some nasty mono-guard lists and I just don't see how increase in few points will cripple it and make mono-guard unplayable.
I'd imagine increase in 60 pts in a guard brigade to be something like taking out a primaris psyker, crusader, swap one artemia with barebone scout sentinel, few less mortars on infantries, etc.
Conscripts:
6" WS/BS 5+ S3 T3 1W 1A LD4 6+ save
Unit starts at 20 models, can have an additional 10 to max out at 30.
Lasgun(which would be their only weapon once Frag Grenades are removed) 24" Rapid Fire 1 S3 AP0 1D
Removing <Regiment> means Raw Recruits(receives Orders on a 4+) can be removed, since they can't have Officers with Auxilia.
Gretchin:
5" WS5+ BS4+ S2 T2 1W 1A LD4 6+
Unit starts at 10 models, can have an additional 20. Presumably retains "Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers"(unit including 20+ models adds 1 to their Hit rolls)
Grot Blasta 12" Pistol 1 S3 AP0 1D
<Clan>
Do you really need me to hold your hand through why having <Clan> is better than Auxilia? Do you really need me to explain that I've not said Gretchin are better than Conscripts, but rather I'm refuting your nonsensical stance that the changes suggested still make Conscripts somehow a ridiculously better choice?
I'm really struggling to see how you can suggest that a 24" rapid fire weapon on a chassis with +1S, +1T and +1Move (but -1BS ) are in any way equal to the alternative. It's unfathomable. It's quite obvious that having <Clan> is better than not having the equivalent in your faction. But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant. Not sure why you've made bold the starting size of the squad either, like that's some big issue to be discussed and some reason that Conscripts are clearly not better than Gretchin at 3ppm.
I'm really struggling to see how you can suggest that a 24" rapid fire weapon on a chassis with +1S, +1T and +1Move (but -1BS ) are in any way equal to the alternative. It's unfathomable.
24" rapid fire weapon means nothing when you're locked in combat.
It's quite obvious that having <Clan> is better than not having the equivalent in your faction.
You would think so, but yet you kept insisting that the Conscripts with Auxilia are still leaps and bounds better.
But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant.
Not when your unit is quite literally meant to be a tarpit. That's what Conscripts are always argued by people like yourself to be, that's what people like yourself always suggest that Gretchin are.
Not sure why you've made bold the starting size of the squad either, like that's some big issue to be discussed and some reason that Conscripts are clearly not better than Gretchin at 3ppm.
Really? In yet another edition of MSUs you don't understand why I would bold the starting size of the squad?
Yes, the points are the same--the ability to field smaller versions of the same units is a Big Deal.
But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant.
Not when your unit is quite literally meant to be a tarpit. That's what Conscripts are always argued by people like yourself to be, that's what people like yourself always suggest that Gretchin are.
You can't see the importance of S3 T3 vs S2 T2 in a 'tarpit' unit? Really? I know you Guard players don't traditionally engage in melee but cmon.
You've assumed for the rest of your post very specific things that kind of vaguely suit your argument, which a)isn't objective and b) still proves Gretchin weaker.
I'm really struggling to see how you can suggest that a 24" rapid fire weapon on a chassis with +1S, +1T and +1Move (but -1BS ) are in any way equal to the alternative. It's unfathomable.
24" rapid fire weapon means nothing when you're locked in combat.
It's quite obvious that having <Clan> is better than not having the equivalent in your faction.
You would think so, but yet you kept insisting that the Conscripts with Auxilia are still leaps and bounds better.
But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant.
Not when your unit is quite literally meant to be a tarpit. That's what Conscripts are always argued by people like yourself to be, that's what people like yourself always suggest that Gretchin are.
Not sure why you've made bold the starting size of the squad either, like that's some big issue to be discussed and some reason that Conscripts are clearly not better than Gretchin at 3ppm.
Really? In yet another edition of MSUs you don't understand why I would bold the starting size of the squad?
Yes, the points are the same--the ability to field smaller versions of the same units is a Big Deal.
1) Why are you assuming that you are always in H2H combat, and if you are in combat did you not get to at least shoot in overwatch with your RF 1 weapons?
2)Lets assume that both gretchin and conscripts are only tarpits and for some reason you are locked in combat without getting to shoot at anything so conscripts having the better ranged weapon isn't relevant. Are you really arguing that having +1T and +1S compared to gretchen doesn't make conscripts better tarpits than them? T3 means you aren't going to be doubled out by S4 weapons so you are quite a bit more durable and you are going to hit back harder than the gretchin when you get to swing.
3) Sure, assuming you want a MSU unit to try and sit on an objective and are in a crunch for points then gretchin have the advantage.
But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant.
Not when your unit is quite literally meant to be a tarpit. That's what Conscripts are always argued by people like yourself to be, that's what people like yourself always suggest that Gretchin are.
You can't see the importance of S3 T3 vs S2 T2 in a 'tarpit' unit? Really? I know you Guard players don't traditionally engage in melee but cmon.
You've assumed for the rest of your post very specific things that kind of vaguely suit your argument, which a)isn't objective and b) still proves Gretchin weaker.
And you've done the same for your argument of why Gretchin are weaker than Conscripts.
Gretchin are backed up by Orks, an army that benefits from having a tarpit to charge into.
What happens when Conscripts in a mono-Guard army tarpit a unit?
The Conscripts have to Fall Back for anyone to follow up.
1) Why are you assuming that you are always in H2H combat, and if you are in combat did you not get to at least shoot in overwatch with your RF 1 weapons?
I'm "assuming that you are always in H2H combat" because that's why people took Conscripts. To park in front of everything else, take up space, and force the enemy to charge them.
That's what people like Martel constantly whined about, that he'd "charge and then get in, then they'd just fall back next turn" and shoot him off the table.
2)Lets assume that both gretchin and conscripts are only tarpits and for some reason you are locked in combat without getting to shoot at anything so conscripts having the better ranged weapon isn't relevant. Are you really arguing that having +1T and +1S compared to gretchen doesn't make conscripts better tarpits than them? T3 means you aren't going to be doubled out by S4 weapons so you are quite a bit more durable and you are going to hit back harder than the gretchin when you get to swing.
Being doubled out isn't as bad as it used to be. Yes, you get wounded on 2s but it's not guaranteeing a removal.
And WS5 has to be overcame in both cases, but Gretchin can get +1 to their Hit rolls by simply being a large unit.
3) Sure, assuming you want a MSU unit to try and sit on an objective and are in a crunch for points then gretchin have the advantage.
Also for screening characters...multiple units instead of a single unit opens up more blockage.
1) Why are you assuming that you are always in H2H combat, and if you are in combat did you not get to at least shoot in overwatch with your RF 1 weapons?
I'm "assuming that you are always in H2H combat" because that's why people took Conscripts. To park in front of everything else, take up space, and force the enemy to charge them.
That's what people like Martel constantly whined about, that he'd "charge and then get in, then they'd just fall back next turn" and shoot him off the table.
2)Lets assume that both gretchin and conscripts are only tarpits and for some reason you are locked in combat without getting to shoot at anything so conscripts having the better ranged weapon isn't relevant. Are you really arguing that having +1T and +1S compared to gretchen doesn't make conscripts better tarpits than them? T3 means you aren't going to be doubled out by S4 weapons so you are quite a bit more durable and you are going to hit back harder than the gretchin when you get to swing.
Being doubled out isn't as bad as it used to be. Yes, you get wounded on 2s but it's not guaranteeing a removal.
And WS5 has to be overcame in both cases, but Gretchin can get +1 to their Hit rolls by simply being a large unit.
3) Sure, assuming you want a MSU unit to try and sit on an objective and are in a crunch for points then gretchin have the advantage.
Also for screening characters...multiple units instead of a single unit opens up more blockage.
1) Again, it is their job to screen and eat the charge but you are really downplaying just how much better a 24" RF1 weapon is in overwatch compared to a 12" pistol.
2a) It is a 16% increase in durability, that is nothing to scoff at especially in a blob with 30 wounds.
2b) Yes they are WS5 but you still have longer range and when a unit is finally close enough to charge you get more shots to try deal with them. By my math (assuming you are 12" away so the grots can actually shoot at them) 30 conscripts shooting 30 grots would kill 11.11 grots vs 30 grots shooting at 30 conscripts only killing 8.33 . This is assuming you don't give the conscripts any orders either.
But when you have +1S, +1T and a way better weapon it all seems a little irrelevant.
Not when your unit is quite literally meant to be a tarpit. That's what Conscripts are always argued by people like yourself to be, that's what people like yourself always suggest that Gretchin are.
You can't see the importance of S3 T3 vs S2 T2 in a 'tarpit' unit? Really? I know you Guard players don't traditionally engage in melee but cmon.
You've assumed for the rest of your post very specific things that kind of vaguely suit your argument, which a)isn't objective and b) still proves Gretchin weaker.
And you've done the same for your argument of why Gretchin are weaker than Conscripts.
Gretchin are backed up by Orks, an army that benefits from having a tarpit to charge into.
What happens when Conscripts in a mono-Guard army tarpit a unit?
The Conscripts have to Fall Back for anyone to follow up.
What does this even mean? Firstly I haven't assumed anything outside of their stats/proposed stats. Secondly every army in the game benefits from a tarpit. Especially mono Guard. Conscripts fall back, and obliterate the enemy with a firing line. Nothing too unusual there?
You're the one who brought up CQC. I asked you to compare their stats and weapons, but for some reason that didn't sink in so you decided that Conscripts and Gretchin are always in combat because they're a "tarpit" unit. A place where Conscripts notably still fare better than Gretchin.
They are better at range because they have a better gun. They are more survivable because they have T3 instead of T2. They are better in melee because they have T3 and S3.
I'm struggling to see an argument for them not being better than Gretchin, unless we take bizarre, convoluted, nonsensical reasoning? This isn't an insult, I'm genuinely baffled by your stance on this...
The two units serve a variety of functions, "tarpit" is one of them, perhaps (depending on your army). Their primary role is cheap objective camper and screen. Gretchin are smaller models. I guess that makes them easier to hide? There's a benefit for them with their smaller starting numbers (which means you aren't getting the "Dangerous in large numbers" buff, by the way) I suppose. But I don't think it's worth a better gun, +1M, +1S and +1T?
1) Again, it is their job to screen and eat the charge but you are really downplaying just how much better a 24" RF1 weapon is in overwatch compared to a 12" pistol.
And you're downplaying(or more likely ignoring) the fact that a 12" pistol can still fire when enemy units are within 1" of them.
So while yes, those Conscripts are getting 2 shots each in Overwatch...they then are locked in combat and can't do anything next turn without Falling Back and waiting a turn to shoot again.
2a) It is a 16% increase in durability, that is nothing to scoff at especially in a blob with 30 wounds.
2b) Yes they are WS5 but you still have longer range and when a unit is finally close enough to charge you get more shots to try deal with them. By my math (assuming you are 12" away so the grots can actually shoot at them) 30 conscripts shooting 30 grots would kill 11.11 grots vs 30 grots shooting at 30 conscripts only killing 8.33 .
Yes, and part of the proposal in this thread brings the Conscripts into the same 6+ bracket as the Gretchin.
Gretchin, when in units of 20+, are BS3+/WS4+ vs Conscripts BS/WS5+. Gretchin are also able to swing in CCand shoot their Pistols giving them two rounds to inflict damage vs the Conscripts' single round.
This is assuming you don't give the conscripts any orders either.
This requires a roll of a 4+ on a D6 and the proposals in this thread are for them to be classified as "Auxilia" removing their ability to receive Orders entirely.
Conscripts should stay at 4 points and regular guardsmen should be 5. Take away orders from conscripts completely instead of half-donkeying it like it is now and you have a good, crunchy ( for it's points) unit that has a defined niche (to be cheap meatshields). Let them keep regimental tag for the traits.
1) Again, it is their job to screen and eat the charge but you are really downplaying just how much better a 24" RF1 weapon is in overwatch compared to a 12" pistol.
And you're downplaying(or more likely ignoring) the fact that a 12" pistol can still fire when enemy units are within 1" of them.
So while yes, those Conscripts are getting 2 shots each in Overwatch...they then are locked in combat and can't do anything next turn without Falling Back and waiting a turn to shoot again.
2a) It is a 16% increase in durability, that is nothing to scoff at especially in a blob with 30 wounds.
2b) Yes they are WS5 but you still have longer range and when a unit is finally close enough to charge you get more shots to try deal with them. By my math (assuming you are 12" away so the grots can actually shoot at them) 30 conscripts shooting 30 grots would kill 11.11 grots vs 30 grots shooting at 30 conscripts only killing 8.33 .
Yes, and part of the proposal in this thread brings the Conscripts into the same 6+ bracket as the Gretchin.
Gretchin, when in units of 20+, are BS3+/WS4+ vs Conscripts BS/WS5+. Gretchin are also able to swing in CCand shoot their Pistols giving them two rounds to inflict damage vs the Conscripts' single round.
This is assuming you don't give the conscripts any orders either.
This requires a roll of a 4+ on a D6 and the proposals in this thread are for them to be classified as "Auxilia" removing their ability to receive Orders entirely.
I'm sorry I didn't clarify in my earlier post but that was with a 6+ save for the conscripts, with a 5+ save the conscripts would only lose 6.67 when the grots shoot at them. And again that was WITHOUT attempting to give the conscripts any orders as if they lost "regiment". Even with the nerfs proposed in this thread they are just plain better than gretchin in most situations. They would still have have greater range, greater movement, greater strength, and greater toughness. I would gladly pay +1 ppm for grots if they got the same statline as a conscript. It just isn't a statline that a 3 point model should ever have and for good reason.
I mean this is a problem, we can't even balance properly or could balance properly since a lot of codices missed.
I suspect that this is one of the reasons why SM got toned down, in order to prevent or counter balance the souping issues. Or they just really were afraid like they sometimes were at the begining of a edition.
Frankly i'd like to see a pts and scalling range along the lines of this:
Grot 2pts
R&H militia /Mutants 3 pts
Cultists and R&H cultists 4 pts aswell as conscripts, altough you can argue that they can go back down to 3 pts.
Ig guardsmen 5 pts
Kabalite / veteran / R&H elites 6pts
I belive personally that skitarii and Firewarriors and the rest of the troop choices are kinda fine, albeit there could be a discussion about Hormagaunts.
Main outlier tho for really bad troops are marines, i'd cut their cost down 2pts. Probably also would not hurt to allow a marine army that is mono codex to get a additional CP for a full 10 man squad, CSM only for a full 20 man squad since cultist kinda fill that roll allready.
Not Online!!! wrote: I mean this is a problem, we can't even balance properly or could balance properly since a lot of codices missed.
We only have 2 codex left for main factions (orks & GSC) and 1 slated for overhaul (sisters of battle). Aside from that, we have 3 subfactions left (sisters of silence, assassins, inquisition) which could easily be released as 1 book under theme of "imperial agents"
I think the upcoming CA is going to be a good point in time since 8th ed launch to revisit the codex and balance them out.
Not Online!!! wrote: I suspect that this is one of the reasons why SM got toned down, in order to prevent or counter balance the souping issues. Or they just really were afraid like they sometimes were at the begining of a edition.
Even if this was the case, SM codex was nowhere near as strong as other codex on launch. It was only 'strong' in the comparative sense that they were essentially the only faction with full set of stratagems.
Not Online!!! wrote: Main outlier tho for really bad troops are marines, i'd cut their cost down 2pts. Probably also would not hurt to allow a marine army that is mono codex to get a additional CP for a full 10 man squad, CSM only for a full 20 man squad since cultist kinda fill that roll allready.
Much calculations have been presented in re-costing marines. 11 ppm are most suited cost for tac marines to bring them up to NEAR par (as in maybe quite possibly if I must use them) with other troop choices.
But this isn't a post about SM.
Currently, only few armies are capable of meeting all the criteria for a competitive army. It's either they get toned down or rest of the armies get a boost.
skchsan wrote: ...Currently, only few armies are capable of meeting all the criteria for a competitive army. It's either they get toned down or rest of the armies get a boost.
Normally I'm all for trying to fix things with minimal changes; the situation in 8e, however, feels like GW fundamentally doesn't understand how to-hit modifiers, AP-as-modifier, and the damage/wounds relationship work. The issue here is that there is a fundamental value to "having a wound" and to "having an attack", and the Guard are more in line with how the system wants to work than, say, Marines are. The Guard don't feel like they're 7e Wraithknights/scatterbikes, or 6e Mechdar, or a 5e Razorback parking lot, where they're massively undercosted and too killy/too durable for the demands of the system.
The really damning bit, to me, is that Guard v. Guard games are more interesting than Marine v. Marine games; Marines v. Marines is governed by degenerate mechanical relationships (expensive high-armour units v. massed good-AP weapons, smaller numbers of Command Points that have to be burned on more expensive stratagems, expensive melee units that don't have enough attacks to function as melee units, small numbers of anti-armour weapons governed by d6 damage, high-cost support models that make it nigh-impossible to include a full spectrum of support models in a game...), while Guard v. Guard involves generalist army builds, a flatter bell curve from more mid-value dice/wounds rather than fewer high-value dice/wounds, support models that are inexpensive enough to use and support abilities that make a reasonably significant difference to the game.
In practice I think taking the weaker armies and the ill-considered mechanical relationships as the norm just because there are more of them isn't going to improve games.
AnomanderRake wrote: In practice I think taking the weaker armies and the ill-considered mechanical relationships as the norm just because there are more of them isn't going to improve games.
Agreed. Also, if guard were more of a stand out codex it would probably be easier to just nerf 1 codex than to boost every single other one, but there are a few codices that are as good as or arguably even better than guard.
Do we nerf eldar, DE, Guard. Tau, and tyranid codices (which are considered stronger than average to various degrees)? Or do we buff marines, GK, necrons, and admech codices (which are considered weaker than average to varying degrees)? That becomes a much more complicated decision.
Not Online!!! wrote: I mean this is a problem, we can't even balance properly or could balance properly since a lot of codices missed.
We only have 2 codex left for main factions (orks & GSC) and 1 slated for overhaul (sisters of battle). Aside from that, we have 3 subfactions left (sisters of silence, assassins, inquisition) which could easily be released as 1 book under theme of "imperial agents"
I think the upcoming CA is going to be a good point in time since 8th ed launch to revisit the codex and balance them out.
Not Online!!! wrote: I suspect that this is one of the reasons why SM got toned down, in order to prevent or counter balance the souping issues. Or they just really were afraid like they sometimes were at the begining of a edition.
Even if this was the case, SM codex was nowhere near as strong as other codex on launch. It was only 'strong' in the comparative sense that they were essentially the only faction with full set of stratagems.
Not Online!!! wrote: Main outlier tho for really bad troops are marines, i'd cut their cost down 2pts. Probably also would not hurt to allow a marine army that is mono codex to get a additional CP for a full 10 man squad, CSM only for a full 20 man squad since cultist kinda fill that roll allready.
Much calculations have been presented in re-costing marines. 11 ppm are most suited cost for tac marines to bring them up to NEAR par (as in maybe quite possibly if I must use them) with other troop choices.
But this isn't a post about SM.
Currently, only few armies are capable of meeting all the criteria for a competitive army. It's either they get toned down or rest of the armies get a boost.
My point was, that the game got inherently imbalanced since every codex is an Upgrade over indexes and they realeased one after another. So basically I am saying that GW's release policy is not helpfull for an objective analysis since each codex / FAQ/ CA changed units aswell as other units were not even out then.
I also think Monofactions like Necrons, Tau and Orkz should get something either in exchange for the lack off allies or cheap enough and good enough troops in order to generate enough CP foor these armies to be run. Worst offender on that front are the Necrons which need to pay premium on warriors that are lackluster.
I'd also like an incentive to take mono subfactions, like all detachments are IW f.e. I think something like "common command Structures" would help. Basically for each detachment in the army that all share the same subfactions (F.E. An IW list that fields 2 battalions and a spearhead) It gains an additional CP per detachment. Granted that does not pull SM/CSM /Necrons out of the gutter, since their basic posterboy troops are lackluster and to expensive to mass battalions, they still could get more CP then now.
I want my Stormtrooper Sgts. to be able to carry a Hotshot Lasgun like the rest of the squad. Hate how he's forced to carry a Pistol and CCW.
Personally I wish the Stormtroopers had more that one weapons profile for their rifles, like the normal ap-2 and maybe a str3 assault 3 full auto with maybe a bit more range. I just want to see the Stormtroopers be less of a drop suicide squad (Which I admit they are very good at) a be a bit more versatile.
