I always thought they were human. Because I never read anywhere that they were selected from some space marine chapter. Yet, some inquisitors can wear power armor and use a thunderhammer. And somehow, I don't think a normal Human can wear power armor or swing a thunderhammer. Also, I was reading Siege of Vraks and that Inquisitor lord Hector Rex in Vraks was capable of some amazing feats. He literally beat one of the Khorne Daemon Lords. And that's after sad Daemon Lord killed all the grey knights attacking it. Somehow, I find it difficult to believe a human can stand toe to toe with a Bloodthirster.
Yes, humans can wear power armor and wield thunder hammers.
There's different models of power armor and weapons.
Marines have their own series of weapons and armor that takes their physiology into account.
Sisters are normal humans in Power Armour(Though not Terminator Armour) and I suspect there are some humans with Thunder hammers...
In the case of the Ordo Malleus, they may have Grey Knights that have joined the Inquisition, but otherwise Inquisitors are normal humans.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mrrhm... looks like Terminator Malleus are human too, so they all are.
Rex isn't perhaps the best example - he's a powerful psyker who has also been gene-enhanced for increased physical capabilities so that he's larger and stronger than your average space marine.
But a regular human can use power armor too, and it does enhance what weapons he can comfortably carry. Most normal humans use heavy bolters as a crew-served support weapon, Sisters of Battle carry them alone (just like marines). When you get to an Inquisitor in power armor he's likely to be well trained, heavily enhanced and ofc so well connected that he can get his hands on almost any weapon in the arsenal.
Inquisitors are exclusively human. They can wear power armor which gives them some enhancements though not to the same extent as a space marine since they lack the black carapace a marine has to fully integrate with the armor. That said, they have access to almost everything the IOM can forge, so an individual inquisitor with enough experience and influence can potentially have/use almost anything humanity has to offer.
Just to clarify, Inquisitors CAN be former Space Marines, but that is incredibly rare. Anyone who wishes to be an Inquisitor needs the recommendation of either 3 other Inquisitors or a Lord Inquisitor.
Marines generally don't have the best relations with the Inquisition, so it doesn't happen often.
But there is a Marine Inquisitor mentioned in some book somewhere, I just don't know which.
And as other have mentions, you don't have to be a Marine to wear Power armour and wield a Thunder Hammer.
Galef wrote: Just to clarify, Inquisitors CAN be former Space Marines, but that is incredibly rare. Anyone who wishes to be an Inquisitor needs the recommendation of either 3 other Inquisitors or a Lord Inquisitor.
Marines generally don't have the best relations with the Inquisition, so it doesn't happen often.
But there is a Marine Inquisitor mentioned in some book somewhere, I just don't know which.
And as other have mentions, you don't have to be a Marine to wear Power armour and wield a Thunder Hammer.
-
I'm gonna dispute the above. The closest an Astartes could get to being an Inquisitor is deciding to be a deathwatch lifer and linking up with an Inquisitor as part of his retinue. A quick google search came up with nothing about a marine being an inquisitor and no fluff that I know of has ever mentioned that. Inquisitors are investigators and watchers. Not really what a marine was made for.
Mental conditioning and being geared up for war tends to make AM/SM not a likely candidate.
I know when I read the Grey Knight series one Grey Knight was being recommended for becoming an Inquisitor.
It would be a good fit for Maleus, especially if he tends to think more outside of his protective dogma.
I honestly have not come across anything that specifically states they cannot be an Inquisitor and they do join the occasional Inquisitor's retinue.
Like how other people have mentioned I "know" I had read of a Space Marine Inquisitor somewhere but I cannot get my hands on it.
Yup, Alaric was that Grey Knight that was brought into the folds of the Inquisition.
Also, most of the predecessors to the Inquisition were space marines known as Knight Errants. We do not know for sure if any of them became inquisitors during its official inception, or if they ended up as part of the Grey Knights instead.
In general though, Inquisitors are all human, but the extremely rare Astartes inquisitor is indeed a possibility.
Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.
They can't connect directly with it like the Space Marines, they have to use a special undersuit like those of hte SoB. Also, you will notice that Sisters of Battle armor do have a power pack too. They don't have quite the same kinks like autosense, magboots or other subfunctions thow.
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
Yes, but that is because normal human tools are designed with a certain variety of size in mind. Space Marine equipment is purposely designed for people who are three metres tall while wearing bulky power armour. Even if you are a very tall human at two metres, you are still going to struggle with comfortably getting your hand comfortably around the massive grip of that bolter and reaching the trigger. It would be very awkward to hold. And that is before the recoil tears your arm off, since the weapon was designed for the superhuman strength of a Space Marine. Same thing with thunder hammers. Yeah, you could pick one up and swing it, but it would be so heavy you'd hurt yourself. So it depends on your definition of "use". If by "use" you mean "I can carry it around and do something with it", then you could use Space Marine weapons. If by "use" you mean "I could actually fight effectively with this weapon", then no, you can't use Space Marine weapons.
edit: got unit conversions messed up in my head. The size difference is not that big, so a tall Human could probably hold a Space Marine bolter (or hammer) just fine (though probably still not very comfortably). The recoil and weight of the weapons would still be an issue though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I thought marines were 7 feet tall, 8 in powered armor?
How would the armour add a full feet? Eight feet has always been BL exaggeration.
Space Marines seem vary in height from 7 to 8 feet, which are the two most common heights given in the fluff. I don't think the armour makes them much taller than that, especially since they are rarely encountered outside of it so most of those given heights are for Marines in full armour.
Galef wrote: Just to clarify, Inquisitors CAN be former Space Marines, but that is incredibly rare. Anyone who wishes to be an Inquisitor needs the recommendation of either 3 other Inquisitors or a Lord Inquisitor.
Marines generally don't have the best relations with the Inquisition, so it doesn't happen often.
But there is a Marine Inquisitor mentioned in some book somewhere, I just don't know which.
And as other have mentions, you don't have to be a Marine to wear Power armour and wield a Thunder Hammer.
-
Addendum: Given the initiation requirements the most likely path if you're writing a Marine Inquisitor is through the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or through a Chapter like the Exorcists that works closely with the Inquisition already, and in any of those cases the Inquisitor you end up with is probably going to be of the brute-force wave-the-sigil-around march-in-and-purge-things school rather than any kind of covert plotter or subtle operative.
(I don't recall any names off the top of my head but I know there's reference in the Deathwatch RPG book to Inquisitors that are "retired" Deathwatch Marines.)
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
Yes, but that is because normal human tools are designed with a certain variety of size in mind. Space Marine equipment is purposely designed for people who are three metres tall while wearing bulky power armour. Even if you are a very tall human at two metres, you are still going to struggle with comfortably getting your hand comfortably around the massive grip of that bolter and reaching the trigger. It would be very awkward to hold. And that is before the recoil tears your arm off, since the weapon was designed for the superhuman strength of a Space Marine. Same thing with thunder hammers. Yeah, you could pick one up and swing it, but it would be so heavy you'd hurt yourself.
So it depends on your definition of "use". If by "use" you mean "I can carry it around and do something with it", then you could use Space Marine weapons. If by "use" you mean "I could actually fight effectively with this weapon", then no, you can't use Space Marine weapons.
Addendum: I will note that "power armour" or "a boltgun" aren't things that have an absolutely defined size; Battle Sisters and normal humans both have smaller patterns of both from the Marine ones that are indistinguishable at the granularity level of the 40k statline but have different stats in the RPGs. Human-sized boltguns don't even require power armour to make use of, as seen in Necromunda and the Guard book.
It's also worth noting that the reactor is a question of the quality of the armour rather than one of weight; Battle Sisters' armour in the RPG books does have the onboard reactor while lower-quality human power armour has a battery with limited duration instead.
So, yeah, if a human tried to use an Astartes boltgun they'd definitely blow their own arm off, so they use boltguns sized for humans instead.
If you want an idea of what happens when a normal human tries to use a Marine's power weapon (a Crozius Arcanum in this case) have a read of the short story 'Argent'.
Iron_Captain wrote: edit: got unit conversions messed up in my head. The size difference is not that big, so a tall Human could probably hold a Space Marine bolter (or hammer) just fine (though probably still not very comfortably). The recoil and weight of the weapons would still be an issue though.
That's probably not a big issue since bolters are rather compact weapons and considering that everything in 40K seems to be made of plasteel (thus extremely light) it's probably not that heavy. Recoil on a bolter isn't all that great since some space marines can fire stormbolters with one hand (Grey Knights) or old school space wolf. It probably require a very strong human thow or possess a power armor to absorb recoil. Sisters of Battle and most Inquisitors are both very stron humans and have access to power armors so they are probaly just fine with their bolters.
The RL tech that bolters are based on don't have much recoil for there size initially since it's going to gain speed on the way to it's target. Granted a Bolt round is much larger than what we ever produced in real life so that would probably be a factor.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The RL tech that bolters are based on don't have much recoil for there size initially since it's going to gain speed on the way to it's target. Granted a Bolt round is much larger than what we ever produced in real life so that would probably be a factor.
Bolters aren't directly based on any real-life tech. They fire a armour-piercing high-explosive round like a normal bullet (to give it a very high initial speed) which then starts to behave as a gyrojet and accelerates to gain even more speed. There isn't anything like that in real life. The idea was probably inspired by gyrojets and rocket/grenade launchers though.
Iron_Captain wrote: edit: got unit conversions messed up in my head. The size difference is not that big, so a tall Human could probably hold a Space Marine bolter (or hammer) just fine (though probably still not very comfortably). The recoil and weight of the weapons would still be an issue though.
That's probably not a big issue since bolters are rather compact weapons and considering that everything in 40K seems to be made of plasteel (thus extremely light) it's probably not that heavy. Recoil on a bolter isn't all that great since some space marines can fire stormbolters with one hand (Grey Knights) or old school space wolf. It probably require a very strong human thow or possess a power armor to absorb recoil. Sisters of Battle and most Inquisitors are both very stron humans and have access to power armors so they are probaly just fine with their bolters.
Fluff has unaugmented humans risking severe injury or death firing an Astartes pattern bolter. Sororitas / Inquisitorial bolters are specially designed to not maim their users.
Crimson wrote: Sounds like nonsense. They're the same bolters (outside the Primaris Bolt rifles.)
Maybe they have different internal mechanisms and use a different sized explosive charge? That's how real guns work. An M16 and an AR15 are related and look similar, but they have different internal mechanisms and performance.
My memory could be wrong but I do recall that human sized bolters were weaker in the FFGRPGs compared to marine ones to represent that human sized ones used a smaller round. 40k doesn't have enough granularity to represent that though.
Also to be fair that's a catachan, whose average soldier is the size of a body builder.
Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
HoundsofDemos wrote: My memory could be wrong but I do recall that human sized bolters were weaker in the FFGRPGs compared to marine ones to represent that human sized ones used a smaller round. 40k doesn't have enough granularity to represent that though.
That's just FFG being silly though. Their version of the setting is even less comparable with the studio fluff than BL's and it is licenced material, not GW stuff so can be safely ignored. Of course now it is the case that marines use bigger bolters, but that's only a primaris thing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I thought marines were 7 feet tall, 8 in powered armor?
How would the armour add a full foot? Eight feet has always been BL exaggeration.
Whilst I've only read a handful of BL books they do rather seem to take the manly tales of manly deeds in a manly galaxy a tad literally rather than the unreliable narrative / IoM propaganda of earlier editions
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
Or maybe it just looks similar to a Godwyn pattern bolter, but its a different model.
The AK 47 looks like an AK 74 or a Type 56, but they are different guns.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
Actually the Godwy-Daez pattern (the one used by the Sisterhood) is the same caliber than a Godwyn pattern bolter of the Adeptus Astartes and is apparently more reliable and performant since it's an improved model (according to the 3rd eddition Witch Hunter codex).
The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.
Crimson wrote: The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.
If by just fine you mean "the heavy stubber and heavy bolter needs to be braced on the ground rather than fired standing, like the marines can, and requires an additional soldier to help with set up and loading" then yeah, sure, just fine. There is that one Catachan guy, but he's an exception, not the rule. Like Marbo. There are also Astartes patterns of grenade launchers that are used by them. Imperial Guard have their own versions.
Crimson wrote: The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.
If by just fine you mean "the heavy stubber and heavy bolter needs to be braced on the ground rather than fired standing, like the marines can, and requires an additional soldier to help with set up and loading" then yeah, sure, just fine.
There is that one Catachan guy, but he's an exception, not the rule. Like Marbo.
There are also Astartes patterns of grenade launchers that are used by them. Imperial Guard have their own versions.
Yeah, I really doubt these guys would have a problem handling a bolter!
its space fantasy dude. if the writers need a human who can face a demon, then theyre going to make it so. like the dragon fighting bodybuilders of 80s fantasy.
Also, when facing something like a greater daemon, I don't think any space marine enhancements are gonna do much. Sure, you're somewhat stronger than tougher, but that house-sized warp monster is gonna crush you like a bug anyway. Daemon fighting probably requires tactics, knowledge and gear that rely on something else than raw strength to begin with.
Yeah, I really doubt these guys would have a problem handling a bolter!
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.
Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
So you've done the math on a .75 cal godwyn pattern gyrojet shell versus, say, a .50 cal FMJ round? Cause I'd love to see that data.
I'd also like to know where you source your M20-M30 dark age tech specifications.
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.
Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.
Same as Ad Mech.
By the point they can use a bodyglove with neurolinks (which is essentially what Space Marine power armour functions like) they are about as augmented as a Space Marine or Techpriest though, so that falls outside of the spectrum of "normal human".
Iron_Captain wrote: Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.
Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.
It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.
Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.
Same as Ad Mech.
By the point they can use a bodyglove with neurolinks (which is essentially what Space Marine power armour functions like) they are about as augmented as a Space Marine or Techpriest though, so that falls outside of the spectrum of "normal human".
Nope - Amberley Vail and others are mainly base line humans. The Bodyglove works fine for them.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.
That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.
That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.
There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.
That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.
Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?
There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.
It is not even GW stuff, it is licenced material like the computer games and the warhammer leggings. They took a lot of liberties with the lore.
Crimson wrote: But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.
The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.
That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.
dude, the studio fluff barely mentions anything about how ANYTHING works. the studio fluff is basicly all figurative masturbation about how great the army whose codex you happen to hold in your hands is. If the ONLY thing you take into account is studio fluff you must have a laughably simplistic view of 40k.
BTW, the thing about Marines Boltguns being bigger then normal human bolt guns also appers in Emperor's Last Gift. It's subtle though so it's easy to miss. the Inqusitor in question has a Boltgun reckongized as an Astartes model, that she has to have a supensor disc near the front end of it so she can wield it easily.
One thing to keep in mind Crimson, the guy you posted wielding a heavy bolter by himself, is a catachan. who are all famed for being partiuclarly big and strong for base line humans. (to the point that in their faction rules in Codex IG 8th, they have STR 4) maaaaaybe not an ideal solution?
The idea that Space Marines would have special weaponry designed to take advantage of their unique psyology simply makes sense,
Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?
But in 40K normal people can run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, as evidenced by heavy stubber! And they can carry and fire a heavy bolter too! Are you going to argue that marines use bolters that are heavier and have bigger recoil than heavy bolters that normal humans use?
There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.
It is not even GW stuff, it is licenced material like the computer games and the warhammer leggings. They took a lot of liberties with the lore.
It is just as canon as other GW stuff though, according to GW's official canon policy of "everything and nothing is canon, decide for yourself".
Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?
But in 40K normal people can run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, as evidenced by heavy stubber! And they can carry and fire a heavy bolter too! Are you going to argue that marines use bolters that are heavier and have bigger recoil than heavy bolters that normal humans use?
Yes, but nothing different from the real world. That guy with a heavy stubber is larger than average, and the model doesn't show how he fires the gun (he'd have to use the ground or something else to stabilise it if he wants any sort of accuracy). He reminds me a lot of this ISIS guy actually:
Spoiler:
The only person not a Space Marine who wields a dismounted heavy bolter meanwhile is 1. a Catachan (so hardly a normal human) and 2. heavily augmented specifically to allow him to wield a heavy bolter (so not a normal human at all).
One thing to keep in mind Crimson, the guy you posted wielding a heavy bolter by himself, is a catachan. who are all famed for being partiuclarly big and strong for base line humans. (to the point that in their faction rules in Codex IG 8th, they have STR 4) maaaaaybe not an ideal solution?
No, he was an Orlock ganger from Necromunda (not a Goliath!) Normal human gangers from Necromunda can use heavy bolters.
It is though, and it gives some of the best details about how a lot of equipment works in the 40k universe that the Codexes don't touch on. Also logically it makes sense that human rounds would be smaller, they are not space marines and wouldn't be able to use the weapon the same way a marine would.
Do you understand what licenced material means? It is not produced by GW.
GW's Inquisition (54mm semi-RPG) that has far more detailed rules than 40K has four different types of bolters (not counting pistols, storm bolters et.c) and various different types of bolt ammunition. It makes no difference between boltguns wielded by marines and normal humans either in the rules or in the description of equipment. In this level of detail the difference would absolutely be present were it intended to exist.
I would use FFS weapon stats as a good example of Space Marines guns being too big and to heavy for normal human. In fact, those stats are purely number crunch. They vary from game to game even in the same eddition (example Dak Eldar weapons in Rogue Trader vs Only War, Kroots in Only War vs Rogue Trader vs Deathwatch) and sometime runs opposite to the fluff (or common sense) of other GW books like bolter being stronger than pulse rifle or necron weapons. I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.
I'm with Crimson on this one. There isn't any logical reason that humans capable of carrying heavy stubbers (weapons with basically the same statline, but a considerably higher fire rate) cannot fire Marine bolters. Heavy stubbers should logically have a higher recoil, because they essentially hit harder at the other end despite not firing explosive bolts (3 S4 bursts in the same time as 2 S4 bursts). Guardsmen tend to work in weapons teams because they use oversized weapons and need to carry the ammunition in addition to the weapon (something power armoured-Marines can do easily). Compare a Cadian heavy bolter to a Marine heavy bolter- the Cadian one is much larger (presumably for improved sustained fire in defensive positions or something).
Are there multiple patterns of Godwyn-pattern bolters, which are outwardly the same, but different in calibre? Quite possibly, this is the Imperium after all. However, they clearly all fire approximately the same "burst weight", because they have broadly equal efficacy (identical efficacy based on Crimson's info about the Inquisition RPG).
I think that within the original context of Inquisitors in power armour, there is also absolutely no issue with firing bolters, as the armour is capable of absorbing much of the recoil.
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
Wyzilla wrote: Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself.
Good think that we know from the Inquisitor game then that marines use the exact same bolt ammunition types than everybody else!
Seriously, if GW wanted marines to have bigger, better bolters then everybody else, then they would make a different model to represent them and give them better rules. And this is exactly what they did with Cawl pattern weapons! But the previous bolters are same as everybody else's.
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
We know approximately how hard these weapons hit. If Marine bolters fire rounds with so much more recoil than heavy stubbers, then why do heavy stubbers hit just as hard as Marine bolter rounds (actually harder overall)? That would suggest that the bolters are super inefficient and lose much of their velocity before striking the target, which is not supported by any of the fluff.
GW gives us relatively well defined quanta of gun power in 40k, and bolters are not ridiculously powerful for ballistic infantry small-arms wielded by humans. Could there be small differences between Marine and "human" bolters? Maybe, but they are still broadly equivalent to each other, and less powerful than a heavy stubber (which fires three S4 "shots" in the time a bolter fires 2 "shots"). Also less powerful than the heavy bolters being wielded by underhive gangers (not just Goliaths).
Wyzilla wrote: Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself.
Good think that we know from the Inquisitor game then that marines use the exact same bolt ammunition types than everybody else!
Seriously, if GW wanted marines to have bigger, better bolters then everybody else, then they would make a different model to represent them and give them better rules. And this is exactly what they did with Cawl pattern weapons! But the previous bolters are same as everybody else's.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
We know approximately how hard these weapons hit. If Marine bolters fire rounds with so much more recoil than heavy stubbers, then why do heavy stubbers hit just as hard as Marine bolter rounds (actually harder overall)? That would suggest that the bolters are super inefficient and lose much of their velocity before striking the target, which is not supported by any of the fluff.
GW gives us relatively well defined quanta of gun power in 40k, and bolters are not ridiculously powerful for ballistic infantry small-arms wielded by humans. Could there be small differences between Marine and "human" bolters? Maybe, but they are still broadly equivalent to each other, and less powerful than a heavy stubber (which fires three S4 "shots" in the time a bolter fires 2 "shots"). Also less powerful than the heavy bolters being wielded by underhive gangers (not just Goliaths).
Stats mean nothing because of game balance. Bolters are weak because if they were up to their true strength, ork and guard armies would suffer horribly. Nevermind the general stupidity of game stats in the first place that allow naked S3 models to survive getting hit by a krak missile, or that heavy stubbers are anywhere near the strength of boltguns and gauss. Using them as an indication of anything but GW's attempts to balance the system is absurd.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
Ultimately though this gets to why 40k is a setting not a story. It's like a painting, people are going to interpret it differently and that interpretation may change if addition information about the painting and artist are provided.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game. The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
And were one of those for marines and another for non marines?
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game.
Most of the time they aren't. And FFG team was of course completely different.
The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
Yes, these different bolts exist in the Inquisitor RPG too. And everyone can use them, just like everyone can use the different bolters. It quite precise game, it is not just an abstraction there.
Oh, and in 40KDW have rules for different bolter ammo, so it is something that is represented in rules. If they think that an adamantium tip is a thing that requires writing different rules, then sure as hell massive difference in calibre would too!
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
40k is larger than the codices you know. And all of it is canon. At this point I am starting to think you are just trolling here. You jump into threads on 40k background only to contradict the most basic aspects of 40k background? 1. The larger than normal size of Space Marine weapons has been a part of the fluff since like forever and has been mentioned numerous times and never contradicted. 2. Models and rules are not indicative of the fluff. Because according to the rules and models Space Marines would be smaller than normal humans, Cadians would be deformed gorilla-like creatures instead of humans and intercontinental missiles in 40k would have a range of no more than a few metres. The rules are their own reality and while they are inspired by 40k fluff they are meant to reflect game balance rather than the "reality" of the 40k universe. Models are just models, they are meant to look nice, not realistic. They aren't even consistently scaled or proportioned.
At this point I'm going to agree to disagree. We are both backed by written sources and there is no clear indication that any book or median is more canon than the others from GW. So it comes down to personal interpretation. To me it makes sense that a Marine/anyone in power armor would fire a larger caliber than an un enhanced human. Your don't agree and that's fine.
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
And were one of those for marines and another for non marines?
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game.
Most of the time they aren't. And FFG team was of course completely different.
The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
Yes, these different bolts exist in the Inquisitor RPG too. And everyone can use them, just like everyone can use the different bolters. It quite precise game, it is not just an abstraction there.
Oh, and in 40KDW have rules for different bolter ammo, so it is something that is represented in rules. If they think that an adamantium tip is a thing that requires writing different rules, then sure as hell massive difference in calibre would too!
Which is again irrelevant because rules exist for balance and thus aren't sources for anything. Space Marines can't have boltguns rifing S6 ammunition because it would completely invalidate the cost and purposes of other weapon choices along with providing an absolute headache to balance. It's why Deathwatch rounds got folded into generic 'special issue ammo' and master crafted bolters just became -1 ap, because what existed before was even then too complex and needlessly tedious for an efficient game.
DW do have rules forxseparste ammo types. Rules are abstraction but still offer an apprximation, a weapon with higher stats in the game is a more powerful weapon in the setting too. As for Marines generally carrying bigger weapons than normal humans, they do. It is highly unusual for a normal human to carry a bolter at all, it is a rarity as it is predominantly a marine weapon. But they don't make different mini bolters for those rare occasions.
I don't understand where this debate could go. The only time a "human sized" bolter that had it's caliber clearly stated as far as I'm aware, it was the Sister of Battle bolter and it fires the same caliber than the Space Marine one. In fact, it clearly mentions that the Sister of Battle bolter is actually even better than the ones most commonly used by Space Marines (maybe this superior quality comes in the shape of lighter weight and lower recoil which would make sense). Thus, the "human sized" bolter is just as powerful if not even more thanks to superior quality. Sisters can use their bolters without their power armors as it has been done in Faith and Fire. Considering that the Inquisition can have access to the very best equipment, they can have access to mastercrafted version of the Sister's bolter or even personaly customised bolters built according to their own preferences. Arguing with rules is rather difficult for they are indeed bound by gameplay and balance instead of narrative consistency or "rule of cool". It's good to note that GW makes fluff for it's rules and not the other way around. In the same fashion, they make fluff for models and armies not models and armies for fluff. They are a game company first and foremost afterall.
In the Horus Heresy Rules, Imperialis Militia Grenadiers (unagmented veteran humans) are all able to be equipped with Bolters. I don’t really see a problem with unagmented humans using them, they may just not be able to snap fire as well as Astartes, or fire from the hip accurately. I would imagine they would need to brace themselves, Fire a few rounds semi-auto, the move again. Definetly no full auto
Bolt weapons do come in different caliber, they’re talked about in one of the Caiphus Cain novels when somebody offers him a bolt weapon to replace his Las weapon, he turns down the extra power for his Las Pistol’s reliability.
Different caliber is mentioned again in the Ragnar Blackmane series when the difference between a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun is explained. Mentioned, mostly they talk about the Bolt Pistol’s insane kickback, kickback that even a Space Marine in Power Armour struggles with.
There are plenty of examples of big power gaps not being represented on the tabletop.
Canis Wolfborn had the strength to put down Space Marines before getting his Space Marine upgrade, he is Strength 4 just like almost every other Space Marine.
Harold Deathwolf’s thunderwolf Icefang is bigger and stronger than normal thunderwolves but he still has the normal thunderwolf statline.
The tabletop game simply doesn’t have the ability to express the differences so they go on averages.
Special Issue Ammunition has to be different no matter how minute the differences are - they’re kind of half the Deathwatch’s selling point.
You cant post pictures of high ranking Catachans as evidence of what a typical human is capable of.
These guys are bigger and stronger than Attitude Era WWE wrestlers, Schwarzenegger and the like. They are almost space marine in scale and proportion, but missing the augmentations.
Just because one of the best Catachans can apparently use a space marine mark bolt gun doesn't mean other humans could.
We have seen scalability in imperial tech where the same weapon is available in different sizes (e.g infantry vs vehicle models), so I would not be so fast to dismiss smaller 'low kickback' bolt guns for 'lesser' infantry.
Remember, each Astartes bolter is a lovingly handcrafted artefact. I'm sure a lesser wielder will use a gun with a proportionally lesser amount of artifice / production.
All the FFG material (and the new RPGs, for that matter) may be licences, but they're also approved; to think that the material was published without someone at GW looking over it first is laughable. Add to that that some of the FFG books were contributed to by Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh (and others), so there's a fairly close relationship there.
"but that Catachan officer has the same pattern of boltgun as a Space Marine"
Possibly, possibly not. There's plenty of evidence of visually-identical equipment being of different patterns (see the Imperial Armour books from Forge World). A different internal mechanism or being made of different materials would make it a different pattern too.
nareik wrote: You cant post pictures of high ranking Catachans as evidence of what a typical human is capable of.
These guys are bigger and stronger than Attitude Era WWE wrestlers, Schwarzenegger and the like. They are almost space marine in scale and proportion, but missing the augmentations.
Just because one of the best Catachans can apparently use a space marine mark bolt gun doesn't mean other humans could.
We have seen scalability in imperial tech where the same weapon is available in different sizes (e.g infantry vs vehicle models), so I would not be so fast to dismiss smaller 'low kickback' bolt guns for 'lesser' infantry.
Remember, each Astartes bolter is a lovingly handcrafted artefact. I'm sure a lesser wielder will use a gun with a proportionally lesser amount of artifice / production.
agreed, using catachans as examples of "typical" is like using the olympic weight lifting record (which right now is just under 1043 pounds) as what an average person can lift
Seriously though, moving back to the original question I don't think there's any rule that says "a space marine can't be an inqusitor" but I suspect a space marine, by their very anture are ill suited for the kind of, oft subtle work, of an Inqusitor.
agreed, using catachans as examples of "typical" is like using the olympic weight lifting record (which right now is just under 1043 pounds) as what an average person can lift
'Typical' humans do not use bolters. They're rare ans precious weapons outside Adeptus Astartes. Inquisitors or even veteran guardsemen are normal humans but not typical humans, they're hardened warriors and have physical abilities far above the average.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote: I don't understand where this debate could go. The only time a "human sized" bolter that had it's caliber clearly stated as far as I'm aware, it was the Sister of Battle bolter and it fires the same caliber than the Space Marine one. In fact, it clearly mentions that the Sister of Battle bolter is actually even better than the ones most commonly used by Space Marines (maybe this superior quality comes in the shape of lighter weight and lower recoil which would make sense). Thus, the "human sized" bolter is just as powerful if not even more thanks to superior quality. Sisters can use their bolters without their power armors as it has been done in Faith and Fire. Considering that the Inquisition can have access to the very best equipment, they can have access to mastercrafted version of the Sister's bolter or even personaly customised bolters built according to their own preferences. Arguing with rules is rather difficult for they are indeed bound by gameplay and balance instead of narrative consistency or "rule of cool". It's good to note that GW makes fluff for it's rules and not the other way around. In the same fashion, they make fluff for models and armies not models and armies for fluff. They are a game company first and foremost afterall.
epronovost wrote: I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.
This would be a pretty good argument if it weren't for a different problem. It's good because marines could benefit from having relatively light and compact relative to their size because they are assault troops operating in tight spaces so they use a carbine sized weapon for the same reasons anyone does.
So the argument is that a light marine weapon would be a heavy human weapon for a strong human.
The issue is that the argument rests on the premise that marines are only slightly larger humans. Up-thread, Volt said that marines are 7'6", which would be 30% bigger than a fairly average human man. So for the argument to work you need to convince everyone that instead marines are 16% bigger than a human man.
Do you understand what licenced material means? It is not produced by GW.
also, what do you mean by implying that GW is different from licensed material? I understand that you mean what GW studio writes is true or better verified, but fundamentally it's still derivative merchandising. The original work is completely separate from what they do now. It's not like it's Priestly & co doing the work today, and even if it were, it's not like what an artist does afterward has any effect. Plenty of authors and artists have made brilliant work and gone on to make bizarre twaddle as a followup, using the same setting and characters. They have to pay their bills, after all.
epronovost wrote: I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.
The issue is that the argument rests on the premise that marines are only slightly larger humans. Up-thread, Volt said that marines are 7'6", which would be 30% bigger than a fairly average human man. So for the argument to work you need to convince everyone that instead marines are 16% bigger than a human man.
Well the premise is true, Space Marines are not really 7 and a half foot tall, they are 7 foot tall, in armor, on average. An average sized elite soldiers will probably be above the six foot mark making the difference in size of about 15%, maybe even less. A six foot and half muscular Catashan is only a little smaller than a Space Marine. Considering that bolters are basically pretty much the size of light rifle for a Space Marine, that 15% isn't a big issue. A heavy bolter is too big for a normal human who isn't wearing a power armor, but a regular bolter is probably not a big issue.
You don't have to convince me of that that's fine. For the argument to work though you have to convince everyone else, and according to lots of people a marine is 8' tall or more.
Then this is a thread about inquisitors, so they might not be elite soldiers, there will be more average size people and more of them will be women, so realistically they'll be moderately tall if they're even 5'10", and of course there are lots of men who could become inquisitors who are 5'6"
That means someone in this thread is comparing, in their mind, a bone average size human, under six feet tall, to the cockamamie notion that marines are 8 feet tall.
To my mind, the short pattern weapon used by a marine who is an inch or two under the marine average of 210cm makes a pretty good game rifle for a 6'2" 230lb navy seal. Like I said though, you don't have to convince me.
Actually, I don't even need to convince those who believe Space Marne are significantly larger than what is commonly stated about them. Humans do have access to bolters and use them with and without armors. The most avid humans using bolters are Sisters, all women, and their specific boltgun fires projectiles of the same caliber than theSpace Marines one's. It's probable that Space Marines bolters are indeed uncomfortable even impossible to use for many humen, but that's probably mostly due for ergonomic reason not practical one's. As guns can be adjusted for size difference between small and large adults without impacting their performances to a significant degree, the same probably hold true for boltguns. They are adaptable weapons afterall.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Bolt weapons do come in different caliber, they’re talked about in one of the Caiphus Cain novels when somebody offers him a bolt weapon to replace his Las weapon, he turns down the extra power for his Las Pistol’s reliability.
Different caliber is mentioned again in the Ragnar Blackmane series when the difference between a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun is explained. Mentioned, mostly they talk about the Bolt Pistol’s insane kickback, kickback that even a Space Marine in Power Armour struggles with.
There are plenty of examples of big power gaps not being represented on the tabletop.
Canis Wolfborn had the strength to put down Space Marines before getting his Space Marine upgrade, he is Strength 4 just like almost every other Space Marine.
Harold Deathwolf’s thunderwolf Icefang is bigger and stronger than normal thunderwolves but he still has the normal thunderwolf statline.
The tabletop game simply doesn’t have the ability to express the differences so they go on averages.
Special Issue Ammunition has to be different no matter how minute the differences are - they’re kind of half the Deathwatch’s selling point.
Agreed. There will be difference between even different lasgun patterns, they're just not big enough to show up in the tabletop game - but do in rpgs. The differences between various power armour marks is another case in point.
In the rpgs and black library books (including those written by current or ex design studio types like gav thorpe) a difference in power in favour of astartes weapons is not an uncommon theme. I'm not convinced the difference needed to be as pronounced as FFG made it - marine bolters being closer to heavy bolters than everyone else's weapons - but it does make sense. Stepping outside ideas of rules: the astartes legions are quite a bit bigger and much stronger than normal humans: not giving them a more powerful standard weapon which took advantage of that would be an odd choice
The imperium being as huge as it is and a patchwork of exceptions like it is (if you're "one in a million" there's an entire planet full of people better than you...) I'd be hesitant to say that a space marine inquisitor wouldn't exist, just that they'd be an odd exception, not the rule.
the astartes legions are quite a bit bigger and much stronger than normal humans: not giving them a more powerful standard weapon which took advantage of that would be an odd choice
But they did. That's the bolter. They're not armed with lasguns or autoguns. It just happens that some, quite rare, normal humans can use those bolters too. There are not regiments of bolter-armed guardsmen that need weaker toy bolters. Closest is the SoB, but their bolters explicitly have the same calibre than the marine bolters. No one is arguing that private Perkins could just grab a bolter and shoot with it without dislodging his shoulder; but no one is gonna give private Perkins a bolter in the first place. It is a prestigious weapon for heroes. However, sergeant Armstrong and Inquisitor Stahlman can handle the bolter just fine, being hard as nails experienced veterans and way above average man in their physical capabilities.
pelicaniforce wrote: That's right. A marine can fire a bolter one handed while running, even though it's a very big weapon. For them it's a very small weapon.
A muscular human can fire a bolter with both hands if they're standing still to brace themselves. For them it's a large weapon.
Just to add some RW examples:
.50 cal Kord MG fired on the move:
Kord firing properly:
So while _trained_to_do_so_ person can get away with firing _some_ too heavy weapon - it's neither efficient nor easy. And UNTRAINED person most probably will be injured.
Just for comparision and some prettiness : average-sized* girl firing 50 cal sniper rifle** and Kord MG (1:37)
(* 50 KG - 110 pounds)
(** same ammo - 12.7x108).
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
Yeah I like to think humans use less powerful rounds in their SM equivalent weapons. I don't game so the rules make no difference in my imagination. I just paint and read the books, so in my world I'm all good.
Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
Flinty wrote: Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
They're still capable of deep penetration at point blank range (as boltguns are often used for close range shooting anyway, such as space hulks) and the books mention the rounds going well over supersonic speed just from the kicker charge alone (unless they're firing subsonic bolts meant for soft targets). A boltgun typically isn't firing a small kicker charge just to get it out of the barrel, but to accelerate it to what's more or less the normal speed of the round. The rocket engine just keeps it going at that speed for a greater distance. A boltgun that didn't accelerate to around the peak velocity from the kicker charge would be useless in close combat and be incapable of piercing things such as carapace armor or tyranid chitin.
Flinty wrote: Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
OTOH 'little' is relative after all bolters are regularly used point-blank with bolts often failing to detonate due to detonator not activating - but not totaly impotent acting as slugs. And some rounds, like Krakens, have heavier propellant charges. Not to mention that Bolters are often fired in 3-4-shell bursts.
Flinty wrote: Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
Nah, they still have an initial charge like a modern firearm. More than enough for the round to be lethal at close range, and give a good amount of recoil.
But the reason Bolter recoil is difficult for humans to handle is because the weapon is awkward to use for a human, at least one that was designed for Space Marines. Marine bolters will have space marine hand sized grips. Any firearm that isn't held properly can injure its user when it fires. Which is probably where the rumor that humans will injure themselves when shooting a bolter comes from, because it can happen, but a human who is trained in its use can use it without hurting themselves. And as most humans are NOT trained to use Bolters, well its not a myth that they could hurt themselves.
The rocket just adds to the lethal force of the Bolter at longer ranges, but its still plenty powerful up close.
regarding the RPG rules, it's worth noting that the figures in the Deathwatch book is wrong and they errata'd it, the actual damage differance between a boltgun and the Astartes boltgun is about 4 points of damage differance, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't translates into an effective differance in Table top stats.
Even in the errata, a godwyn's mass-reactive round (1D0+9, Tearing) is superior to a 'mundane' non-astartes heavy bolter (1D10+8, Tearing), making it more akin to the assorted horus heresy custodes bolter patterns (lastrum?) which essentially fire heavy bolter calibre shells.
Flinty wrote: Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
Nah, they still have an initial charge like a modern firearm. More than enough for the round to be lethal at close range, and give a good amount of recoil.
But the reason Bolter recoil is difficult for humans to handle is because the weapon is awkward to use for a human, at least one that was designed for Space Marines. Marine bolters will have space marine hand sized grips. Any firearm that isn't held properly can injure its user when it fires. Which is probably where the rumor that humans will injure themselves when shooting a bolter comes from, because it can happen, but a human who is trained in its use can use it without hurting themselves. And as most humans are NOT trained to use Bolters, well its not a myth that they could hurt themselves.
The rocket just adds to the lethal force of the Bolter at longer ranges, but its still plenty powerful up close.
Also not surprising when considering they rarely have stocks. Not a problem in power armour where the armour can be locked as a stock. Quite an issue for someone trying to shoulder the thing. They are basically stuck as overpowered SMGs for most users.
Flinty wrote: Usefully, bolters fire bipropellant rounds though. So there should be little recoil as all the oomph in the round should come from the rocket motor. All the cased propellant needs to do is kick it clear of the muzzle
Nah, they still have an initial charge like a modern firearm. More than enough for the round to be lethal at close range, and give a good amount of recoil.
But the reason Bolter recoil is difficult for humans to handle is because the weapon is awkward to use for a human, at least one that was designed for Space Marines. Marine bolters will have space marine hand sized grips. Any firearm that isn't held properly can injure its user when it fires. Which is probably where the rumor that humans will injure themselves when shooting a bolter comes from, because it can happen, but a human who is trained in its use can use it without hurting themselves. And as most humans are NOT trained to use Bolters, well its not a myth that they could hurt themselves.
The rocket just adds to the lethal force of the Bolter at longer ranges, but its still plenty powerful up close.
Also not surprising when considering they rarely have stocks. Not a problem in power armour where the armour can be locked as a stock. Quite an issue for someone trying to shoulder the thing. They are basically stuck as overpowered SMGs for most users.
it's definatly worth noting that the Primaris bolt carbine basicly looks like a godwyn pattern boltgun
One thing that would really hurt a normal human (or anyone technically) firing a standard boltgun of any caliber is it's lack of a real stock on most standard models. That would make it much harder to control since you really can't shoulder the thing properly.
The plastic bolter from 2nd edition (and one or two metal models) had a stock, and a few bolters used by non-Marine humans have them (the Escher combi-bolter, for example).
