Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
"Hate" is a strong word. The only thing that the Emperor clearly hates is Chaos, since his end goal is based around defeating/starving them. Curze and Angron were basically just tools, so long as they did their job, the Emperor didn't care. Angron even notes how the Emperor never bothered to spend time with him prepping him for the Crusade like he did with the other Primarchs. If the Emperor really did care (or hate, as you mentioned) then he would have actually sanctioned him like he did to Lorgar.
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
"Hate" is a strong word. The only thing that the Emperor clearly hates is Chaos, since his end goal is based around defeating/starving them. Curze and Angron were basically just tools, so long as they did their job, the Emperor didn't care. Angron even notes how the Emperor never bothered to spend time with him prepping him for the Crusade like he did with the other Primarchs. If the Emperor really did care (or hate, as you mentioned) then he would have actually sanctioned him like he did to Lorgar.
But he did reprimand Kurze and Angron, and Angron and Kurze clashed with their brothers because of their extreme way of doing things. (this would imply what Angron and Kurze did was mostly exclusive to them).
If the Emperor actually gave a crap about what Angron was doing he would have removed him from power, and either locked him up or executed him. He did neither, which meant he tolerated his behavior. Prior to the Heresy we have three examples of the Emperor (possibly ) coming down on a legion/primarch for their behavior
What ever happened to the missing two. (Highly hinted that Russ and his Wolves killed at least one).
Lorgar getting sanctioned in an over the top manner because he wouldn't obey the Imperial Truth.
Magnus for breaking the webway project and not obeying his previous sanction of cut back on the warp dust.
This makes it very clear, the Emperor didn't care if his sons committed over the top genocide or even attack/ fought each other. As long as his long game plan wasn't messed with go wild. As another example, if I remember the time line right Curze freaked out on Dorn, nearly killed him and blew up his home world a good decade or two before the HH started and the most he got for punishment was, well he's kinda a lost cause but that's the futures Emperor's problem.
HoundsofDemos wrote: If the Emperor actually gave a crap about what Angron was doing he would have removed him from power, and either locked him up or executed him. He did neither, which meant he tolerated his behavior. Prior to the Heresy we have three examples of the Emperor (possibly ) coming down on a legion/primarch for their behavior
What ever happened to the missing two. (Highly hinted that Russ and his Wolves killed at least one).
Lorgar getting sanctioned in an over the top manner because he wouldn't obey the Imperial Truth.
Magnus for breaking the webway project and not obeying his previous sanction of cut back on the warp dust.
This makes it very clear, the Emperor didn't care if his sons committed over the top genocide or even attack/ fought each other. As long as his long game plan wasn't messed with go wild. As another example, if I remember the time line right Curze freaked out on Dorn, nearly killed him and blew up his home world a good decade or two before the HH started and the most he got for punishment was, well he's kinda a lost cause but that's the futures Emperor's problem.
He did chastise them for what they did.
He tolerated them. The Emperor chastising Angron and Kurze, and Angron and Kurze clashing with their brothers implies what they did was mostly exclusive to themselves.
Repeating the same thing a again and again doesn't make it more true. A slap on the wrist and a telling off is not an appropriate chastisement for genocide. As Hounds said the Emps really didn't give a gak unless his plans were being messed with. Furthermore it is not only those two Primarchs and legions that committed such deeds but all of them, that was the point of the GC, to bring all of humanity under the Emperors thrall and kill anything that was a threat.
ingtaer wrote: Repeating the same thing a again and again doesn't make it more true. A slap on the wrist and a telling off is not an appropriate chastisement for genocide. As Hounds said the Emps really didn't give a gak unless his plans were being messed with. Furthermore it is not only those two Primarchs and legions that committed such deeds but all of them, that was the point of the GC, to bring all of humanity under the Emperors thrall and kill anything that was a threat.
Yes, kill anything that was a threat.
and I have my doubts about that, since Age of Darkness says what Angron did horrified his brothers and was not something they did, and the Emperor conveniently chastised Angron, but never any of his brothers (outside of Kurze. And if they all did do it)
Because he didn't care, at all. The only times he was shown to actually care were Magnus and Lorgar both because they were messing with his plans. The 2 missing primarchs as well probably but we don't know that for a fact.
And by a threat, during the GC that meant anything that wasn't human or didn't instantly bend the knee. Isolationist systems and polities were seen as a threat not because they could materially harm the IOM but because they did not want to be part of it.
I just explained my quote from Age of Darkness. And the Emperor chastising Angron and Kurze, but not their brothers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
ingtaer wrote: Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
I understand completely.
Sanguinius?
Since the Emperor chastised Angron and Kurze, and Age of Darkness says that what Angron did was something most of his brothers did not do, I think it was exclusive mostly to Angron and Kurze. But the Emperor did not do anything to stop them.
His reasons for conquering the galaxy were so that humanity can psychically evolve. His plans have always been to save humanity as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader). Dark Imperium confirm this.
The point being is that the Laer shows the Imperium is not completely xenophobic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ingtaer wrote: Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
Do you even know the hell psychopathy/ASPD is? The Emperor is not a psychopath. A psychopath is born a psychopath. And they do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire (https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821) consolation for his family's murder at the hands of raiders.
And psychopathy/ASPD is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
The fact that they all died does kind of suggest that and the fact that Fulgrim decided he was going to slaughter them and did not get a telling off says that his decision was whole heartily approved of.
You say that he planned to save humanity, that's not really true. He wanted to mould humanity in his image with himself in control.
So we have established that Emps didn't give a gak, so can the thread be closed? The question is answered.
Of a more interesting point, have you (not specifically you, Onething) ever considered what moral strictures the IOM had during the GC? other than disobedience/defiance against Emps or IOM its never really discussed.
ingtaer wrote: Do you even know the hell psychopathy/ASPD is? The Emperor is not a psychopath. A psychopath is born a psychopath. And they do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire (https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821) consolation for his family's murder at the hands of raiders.
And psychopathy/ASPD is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
Yeah I do, do you? Cause someone who advocates genocide totally unabashed (let alone carries it through) is by definition a psychopath. Murdering billions or trillions of people does not show very great empathy. You cherry picked one example where he says sorry and think that makes him alright. That suggests that you have reading comprehension issues, are a troll or are really not very bright.
ingtaer wrote: The fact that they all died does kind of suggest that and the fact that Fulgrim decided he was going to slaughter them and did not get a telling off says that his decision was whole heartily approved of.
You say that he planned to save humanity, that's not really true. He wanted to mould humanity in his image with himself in control.
So we have established that Emps didn't give a gak, so can the thread be closed? The question is answered.
Of a more interesting point, have you (not specifically you, Onething) ever considered what moral strictures the IOM had during the GC? other than disobedience/defiance against Emps or IOM its never really discussed.
And do you have proof he wanted himself in control? Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Its a fact ever since 1st Edition Rogue Trader the Emperor wants to save humanity. And Dark Imperium also confirms this.
No, I am not. You just assume that. Don't assume things.
Prove what you said. Prove the Emperor does not want to save humanity. Its always been a fact as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader that he wants to.
And nothing suggests the Laer would have ever been destroyed for being aliens. They were on page 28 in the Fulgrim book.
And the Emperor is not a literal psychopath. Go learn what psychopathy/ASPD actually is before spouting it.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
Yeah, the Emperor did send Russ after him. But in the Forgeworld books, he only chastised Angron and nothing else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I mean the Emperor.
Yeah the main reason why Angron and Kurze got "slaps on the wrist" compared to Lorgar & the Word Bearers getting publicly humiliated and have their greatest achievement turned to dust is because Angron and Kurze were conquering systems at a rapid rate, while Lorgar took his time and was lagging behind the other Primarchs in terms of expansive progress.
That and wanton murder in war isn't as bad as god-worship in the eyes of the Emperor, because of the Imperial Truth and all that (where "all that" is the Chaos Gods and accepting that gods exist might make one more open to worshipping them).
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah the main reason why Angron and Kurze got "slaps on the wrist" compared to Lorgar & the Word Bearers getting publicly humiliated and have their greatest achievement turned to dust is because Angron and Kurze were conquering systems at a rapid rate, while Lorgar took his time and was lagging behind the other Primarchs in terms of expansive progress.
That and wanton murder in war isn't as bad as god-worship in the eyes of the Emperor, because of the Imperial Truth and all that (where "all that" is the Chaos Gods and accepting that gods exist might make one more open to worshipping them).
Were you being serious when you called the Emperor a psychopath? He is not a literal psychopath. And for your information, psychopathy is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders and knew how he felt.
And you still haven't proven crap. Dark Imperium confirms the Emperor wants to save humanity. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader as well confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but there you have it). The Emperor wants humanity to psychically evolve.
And the Emperor only took charge when humanity needed during the Age of Strife. He only came out after 40,000 years because of that.
Like when he talked with Perpetual Oll Persson.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
Yeah, the Emperor did send Russ after him. But in the Forgeworld books, he only chastised Angron and nothing else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I mean the Emperor.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
Psychopaths have empathy.
Alright, but Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) says the Emperor wants to save humanity.
Hitler wanted to save the aryan race but that doesn’t make him a hero. Just a dick with a cause. Like the emperor. He didn’t punish them because he didn’t really care. As said above it was all about results. He was ok with mass murder and use of force against civilian populations. (Human and alien). Regardless of his good intentions he was as guilty of genocide as any of them.
epronovost wrote: The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.
People who go 'the Emperor is just a Stalinesque tyrant' are missing the point that we know that there was a viable alternative to, say, Stalinist Russia. In the 40k setting, there is no alternative to The Imperium, because without it and The Emperor daemons would eat everyone's brains. Which means you can't really look the morals involved the same way.
I tend to believe what 99% of the background setting puts out there in almost every case, in both 30k and 40k - that the Emperor is really on a mission to save humanity from being eaten by Chaos, and after 25,000 years of hanging around in the background he finally sees his chance to defeat Chaos once and for all, but doing so requires building an authoritarian empire to stop all the worshipping and psykering.
To answer the OP:
The Emperor doesn't punish Angron because, at the point he finds him, he really doesn't have the time. He took power from Chaos to create the Primarchs and he's in the middle of a ridiculously audacious plan to turn that power back against Chaos by using them and their Legions stop all Chaos-worshipping in the galaxy while HE goes back and creates a way of getting humanity into the web way. If he can do those two things, humanity is safe from Chaos.
But he knows that Chaos will realise and fight back and so he's chosen to do this just as the warp is reeling from the birth of Slaanesh. He knows he has maybe a couple of hundred years AT MOST to achieve this.
And then Chaos goes and sends Argel Til back in time and his perfect Imperial Generals get scattered all over the galaxy and he has to spend the first 100 years of that time finding them instead of building webway gates. Plus, they're all (obviously) now tainted by Chaos. Plus, they all now think of him as some sort of father and all have different expectations of what he's meant to be and do. The first few Primarchs he finds spend years on Terra being re-Imperialised, but by the time he gets to Angron he really doesn't have time for that. It's the same reason Lorgar's worship or Nikaea are dealt with so heavy-handedly - they're all silly little sideshows to the Emperor, who's trying to attempt something way, way more important on a ridiculous time limit!!
That's obvious. Hitler was a maniac who was a WW1 veteran who loathed Germany's defeat in WW1. And the Emperor chastised Angron for committing an atrocity, but that's it.
epronovost wrote: The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.
People who go 'the Emperor is just a Stalinesque tyrant' are missing the point that we know that there was a viable alternative to, say, Stalinist Russia. In the 40k setting, there is no alternative to The Imperium, because without it and The Emperor daemons would eat everyone's brains. Which means you can't really look the morals involved the same way.
I tend to believe what 99% of the background setting puts out there in almost every case, in both 30k and 40k - that the Emperor is really on a mission to save humanity from being eaten by Chaos, and after 25,000 years of hanging around in the background he finally sees his chance to defeat Chaos once and for all, but doing so requires building an authoritarian empire to stop all the worshipping and psykering.
To answer the OP:
The Emperor doesn't punish Angron because, at the point he finds him, he really doesn't have the time. He took power from Chaos to create the Primarchs and he's in the middle of a ridiculously audacious plan to turn that power back against Chaos by using them and their Legions stop all Chaos-worshipping in the galaxy while HE goes back and creates a way of getting humanity into the web way. If he can do those two things, humanity is safe from Chaos.
But he knows that Chaos will realise and fight back and so he's chosen to do this just as the warp is reeling from the birth of Slaanesh. He knows he has maybe a couple of hundred years AT MOST to achieve this.
And then Chaos goes and sends Argel Til back in time and his perfect Imperial Generals get scattered all over the galaxy and he has to spend the first 100 years of that time finding them instead of building webway gates. Plus, they're all (obviously) now tainted by Chaos. Plus, they all now think of him as some sort of father and all have different expectations of what he's meant to be and do. The first few Primarchs he finds spend years on Terra being re-Imperialised, but by the time he gets to Angron he really doesn't have time for that. It's the same reason Lorgar's worship or Nikaea are dealt with so heavy-handedly - they're all silly little sideshows to the Emperor, who's trying to attempt something way, way more important on a ridiculous time limit!!
You know that is literally what Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader)? Its always been a fact the Emperor wants to save humanity as far back as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind just reintroduce it.
Andykp wrote: Hitler wanted to save the aryan race but that doesn’t make him a hero. Just a dick with a cause. Like the emperor. He didn’t punish them because he didn’t really care. As said above it was all about results. He was ok with mass murder and use of force against civilian populations. (Human and alien). Regardless of his good intentions he was as guilty of genocide as any of them.
And you can not justify genocide. End of.
The Emperor knows he commits atrocities, that's why he suffers so much with mankinds anguish. The Emperor does everything and anything to save and secure mankind's existence, so the end justifies the means. In a universe where there are daemons, orks and tyranids you aren't going to be successful protecting humanity as a jesus figure. Genocide can be justified, just like if a person is going to kill you then its kill or be killed, the Emperor also pre-empts dangers but people need to grow up when it comes to the Emperor 'but he's a meanie' so what, if he was a nice guy he'd never have united terra, nevermind the galaxy. He doesn't just kill and commit genocide for the fun of it.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
just becausze someone SAYS "I feel sympathy and know how you feel" doesn't mean he really DOES. the Emperor's ACTIONS suggest a LACK of empathy. As the saying goes, "Actions speak louder then words"
While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Someone else brought up the idea that the Emperor just sees the survival of humanity as a whole as his end goal. That means individual lives, and even worlds lives matter little in the “big picture”. So what if Angron and his legion slaughtered a whole population here and there? It’s not ideal, but in the long run it’s efficient and they can move on to conquering the next world faster and new colonists can always be brought in to reinhabit the shattered cities!
So basically, Angron was a bastard but he was the Emperors bastard and really the worst he did was spill a bit to much blood. Compared to Lorgar and Magnus who were dabbling in ideas that the Emperor was trying to suppress because it would hinder the success of the “big picture” (spread of religion, dealing in sorcery) they go censured hard. Hence the disparity between Angron’s and also Curz’s punishments vs the other two.
pm713 wrote: The Emperor's incompetent and couldn't see the obvious really. That's the result of writing around vague lore though.
I don’t see why he would be obviously incompetent for not censuring Angron as harshly as the others. The World Eaters were conquering worlds quickly, their fleets were moving the borders of the imperium further, and much faster than say Lorgar. So what if a few billion here or there died, perhaps unnecessarily, when Angron showed up? If there is one thing the Imperium never suffered it was a shortage of humans. The Emperor was trying to get the Galaxy to come to heel as quickly as possible, as long as Angron didn’t turn and bit his masters hand I think the Emperor could have cared less. The big picture was still working even with Angron running around.
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
And the Council was first going to make conquer, not destroy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Oh, so you are saying Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are wrong about the Emperor wanting to save humanity? The Emperor absolutely wants to save humanity. Its an irrefutable fact. Its a fact of the lore, so stop babbling about it.
And he only took charge after 40,000 years during the Age of Strife when he had no choice.
This is Warhammmer 40k. It ain't Star Trek.
EDIT: And bud, its not the Emperor claiming that, its the lore itself. You are just ignoring the facts. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm that. He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
And the Council was first going to make conquer, not destroy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Oh, so you are saying Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are wrong about the Emperor wanting to save humanity? The Emperor absolutely wants to save humanity. Its an irrefutable fact.
No, I'm saying his definition of "save" is indistinguishable from the same usage of the word employed by tyrants and dictators since time immemorial. I even believe he's sincere about wanting to save humanity, I just don't think he's necessarily actually doing that. He certainly isn't from the point of view of all the human civilisations his armies wipe out during the Crusade. That's a nuance you seem to be completely missing. The Emperor saying something, and even believing it, doesn't mean that's the result he gets.
Here's an example directly from the BL novels. I'm currently re-reading First Heretic and after the Monarchia debacle, the Word Bearers eventually go back out on the Crusade and utterly destroy an advanced human civilisation. No questions asked, they just straight up wipe out 200 million people and their culture along with them. They, and presumably the Emperor, view it as a necessary step on the path to saving humanity, because the humans refused to integrate with the Imperial Truth. Do you think the humans of that civilisation saw things the same way? How can anyone be sure their destruction was required in order to "save" humanity?
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
And the Council was first going to make conquer, not destroy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Oh, so you are saying Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are wrong about the Emperor wanting to save humanity? The Emperor absolutely wants to save humanity. Its an irrefutable fact.
No, I'm saying his definition of "save" is indistinguishable from the same usage of the word employed by tyrants and dictators since time immemorial. I even believe he's sincere about wanting to save humanity, I just don't think he's necessarily actually doing that. He certainly isn't from the point of view of all the human civilisations his armies wipe out during the Crusade. That's a nuance you seem to be completely missing. The Emperor saying something, and even believing it, doesn't mean that's the result he gets.
Here's an example directly from the BL novels. I'm currently re-reading First Heretic and after the Monarchia debacle, the Word Bearers eventually go back out on the Crusade and utterly destroy an advanced human civilisation. No questions asked, they just straight up wipe out 200 million people and their culture along with them. They, and presumably the Emperor, view it as a necessary step on the path to saving humanity, because the humans refused to integrate with the Imperial Truth. Do you think the humans of that civilisation saw things the same way? How can anyone be sure their destruction was required in order to "save" humanity?
EDIT: And bud, its not the Emperor claiming that, its the lore itself. You are just ignoring the facts. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm that. He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The entire crusade is about as big of an atrocity as it gets. The empire was basically a xenophobic, racist, religion and culture intolerant machine geared for conquest that purged everything and anything in it's path. In light of that the individual actions of how the primarchs went about doing their thing is a bit small in scale.
Now the thing is that in the setting this is ok since the crusade may be the only viable way to save humanity from chaos. Or to put it differently in the 30k universe what Lorgar and Magnus did could have much much worse long term consequences than a small bit of genocide here or there. Small potatoes more or less...
axxiomatic wrote: The entire crusade is about as big of an atrocity as it gets. The empire was basically a xenophobic, racist, religion and culture intolerant machine geared for conquest that purged everything and anything in it's path. In light of that the individual actions of how the primarchs went about doing their thing is a bit small in scale.
Now the thing is that in the setting this is ok since the crusade may be the only viable way to save humanity from chaos. Or to put it differently in the 30k universe what Lorgar and Magnus did could have much much worse long term consequences than a small bit of genocide here or there. Small potatoes more or less...
The Emperor's chastisement of Lorgar and Angron, and my quote from Age of Darkness (other Legions being horrified at what Kurze and Angron do) would indicate that what Angron and Kurze did was mostly exclusive to themselves.
Slipspace, I don't think using anything after Monarchia is really pro/against the Emperor as by the time the Word Bearers go back on Crusade Kor Phaeron and Erebus have done their work on Lorgar and he has now found the Chaos Gods.
EDIT: And bud, its not the Emperor claiming that, its the lore itself. You are just ignoring the facts. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm that. He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
That's not salvation. That's control.
He wants humanity to psychically evolve so they will not need him anymore, and so they will be safe from Chaos.
The lore has always said as far back as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader that the Emperor did not want to take control. And Malcador said he disagreed with the Emperor in wanting to leave humanity after it can take care of itself. Malcador thinks that humanity will never be at that point while the Emperor does think so.
The lore has always said as far back as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader that the Emperor did not want to take control. And Malcador said he disagreed with the Emperor in wanting to leave humanity after it can take care of itself. Malcador thinks that humanity will never be at that point while the Emperor does think so.
Big E so desperately didn't want to take control...that he launched a genocidal crusade to wipe out anyone who wouldn't do what he told them.
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
And the Council was first going to make conquer, not destroy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Oh, so you are saying Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are wrong about the Emperor wanting to save humanity? The Emperor absolutely wants to save humanity. Its an irrefutable fact.
No, I'm saying his definition of "save" is indistinguishable from the same usage of the word employed by tyrants and dictators since time immemorial. I even believe he's sincere about wanting to save humanity, I just don't think he's necessarily actually doing that. He certainly isn't from the point of view of all the human civilisations his armies wipe out during the Crusade. That's a nuance you seem to be completely missing. The Emperor saying something, and even believing it, doesn't mean that's the result he gets.
Here's an example directly from the BL novels. I'm currently re-reading First Heretic and after the Monarchia debacle, the Word Bearers eventually go back out on the Crusade and utterly destroy an advanced human civilisation. No questions asked, they just straight up wipe out 200 million people and their culture along with them. They, and presumably the Emperor, view it as a necessary step on the path to saving humanity, because the humans refused to integrate with the Imperial Truth. Do you think the humans of that civilisation saw things the same way? How can anyone be sure their destruction was required in order to "save" humanity?
Was it that one human civilization that had AI?
Yes, that's the one. Presumably you'll now point out that AI was outlawed and dangerous? Again, according to the Imperial Truth. It's not an inviolate fact all AI is dangerous, even if there was an AI uprising in humanity's history.
Pilau Rice wrote:Slipspace, I don't think using anything after Monarchia is really pro/against the Emperor as by the time the Word Bearers go back on Crusade Kor Phaeron and Erebus have done their work on Lorgar and he has now found the Chaos Gods.
Possibly not, but at the time the Word Bearers were still trying to at least give the outward appearance of following the Imperial Truth and nobody from the Legion questions the decision to wipe out the civilisation. Argel Tal even justifies it using the Imperial Truth as support for his reasoning. Regardless, it's just an example of the sort of campaigns that were commonplace during the Crusade. There are plenty of others from earlier in the Crusade or from loyalist Legions. This just happened to be the freshest in my memory.
BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This was only considered due to the cost and estimated time taken to resolve the conflict. Not because they wanted to actually protect them.
IA: Emperors Children. The Cleansing of Laeran
Observers from the Adeptus Administratum wondered if perhaps the Laer might be made a protectorate of the Imperium as conquering such an efficient race could prove to be a long and costly endeavour.
And the Council was first going to make conquer, not destroy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not. What matters are his actions. Speaking of which, that's why the example of the Laer that Onething keeps bringing up is completely useless. It's irrelevant what the dissenting voices wanted to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we don't know whether these proposals were serious and seriously considered, or just one opinion voiced among many that's only mentioned in order to highlight not absolutely everyone is a genocidal maniac during the Crusade. Secondly, and most importantly, the Laer were completely wiped out. Regardless of any hand-wringing or second-guessing that happened before the campaign, the Imperium annihilated them and for all we know, even if the dissenting opinions had initially been listened to, the Emperor may well have come along later and decreed they were all to be slaughtered anyway. So yeah, can we stop mentioning the Laer as any sort of example of how the Imperium wasn't completely xenophobic?
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting. He's hardly being selfless about it. The guy appoints himself the Emperor, ruler over all of humanity. He may claim it's all out of a selfless desire to protect humanity but, again, that's what tyrants always say. If you look at his actions and methods, the Emperor is a textbook tyrant. The fact those acitons and methods may be the only way to save humanity is what makes the setting interesting.
As for Angron, the answer is pretty simple. He needed him. While the Legions were pretty much just the most effective fighting forces the Emperor could command, most of them were pretty similar in their methods, but the Emperor clearly valued the abilities of some of the Legions enough to overlook their methods. In Angron's case, it was the ability to take planets quickly, regardless of the cost in lives on either side. For Legions like the Iron Warriors he valued their siegecraft. I don't think the Emperor saw much difference between the two - they're both just slightly different tools to use and the effects of the World Eaters' way of warfare didn't bother him. There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged? Even if he wasn't lying, he could easily have ended the Legion's atrocities there and then. He didn't. For a being with the power of the Emperor, anything short of the destruction of the World Eaters is an acceptance of their methods, regardless of what he might have said publicly.
Is he a psychopath? Quite possibly, though it's more the case that he's not really human in the first place so perhaps applying human definitions to the Emperor doesn't quite work. He may or may not have shown empathy in the past. One thing a lot of high-functioning psychopaths and sociopaths learn to do very effectively is mimic emotions. So when the Emperor shows emapthy it could just be him going through the motions because that's what you're supposed to do. The real question is whether he feels the emotion, or simply says he does.
Oh, so you are saying Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are wrong about the Emperor wanting to save humanity? The Emperor absolutely wants to save humanity. Its an irrefutable fact.
No, I'm saying his definition of "save" is indistinguishable from the same usage of the word employed by tyrants and dictators since time immemorial. I even believe he's sincere about wanting to save humanity, I just don't think he's necessarily actually doing that. He certainly isn't from the point of view of all the human civilisations his armies wipe out during the Crusade. That's a nuance you seem to be completely missing. The Emperor saying something, and even believing it, doesn't mean that's the result he gets.
Here's an example directly from the BL novels. I'm currently re-reading First Heretic and after the Monarchia debacle, the Word Bearers eventually go back out on the Crusade and utterly destroy an advanced human civilisation. No questions asked, they just straight up wipe out 200 million people and their culture along with them. They, and presumably the Emperor, view it as a necessary step on the path to saving humanity, because the humans refused to integrate with the Imperial Truth. Do you think the humans of that civilisation saw things the same way? How can anyone be sure their destruction was required in order to "save" humanity?
Was it that one human civilization that had AI?
Yes, that's the one. Presumably you'll now point out that AI was outlawed and dangerous? Again, according to the Imperial Truth. It's not an inviolate fact all AI is dangerous, even if there was an AI uprising in humanity's history.
Pilau Rice wrote:Slipspace, I don't think using anything after Monarchia is really pro/against the Emperor as by the time the Word Bearers go back on Crusade Kor Phaeron and Erebus have done their work on Lorgar and he has now found the Chaos Gods.
Possibly not, but at the time the Word Bearers were still trying to at least give the outward appearance of following the Imperial Truth and nobody from the Legion questions the decision to wipe out the civilisation. Argel Tal even justifies it using the Imperial Truth as support for his reasoning. Regardless, it's just an example of the sort of campaigns that were commonplace during the Crusade. There are plenty of others from earlier in the Crusade or from loyalist Legions. This just happened to be the freshest in my memory.
But the reason the Imprium then and now hates AI is because they turned on humanity.
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not.
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting.
I agree that, by today's standards, the Emperor is a tyrant. And the 40k setting is a nightmare of religion and bureaucracy, and it's a satire of current-day religions and bureaucratic systems. But, as said elsewhere, the entire setting, GW themselves, all the books HEAVILY IMPLY that the Emperor was correct in his belief that the Imperium is necessary to save humanity.
If you throw that bit out, you catastrophically miss the point of the setting. The tragedy of the 40k setting rests on the idea that the Emperors' plan WAS a noble one, even if it was harsh, and that the Great Crusade of 30k was necessary to save humanity.
This gives texture and grey areas to 30k because it's a true 'necessary tyranny' in opposition to the ones in our world, something commented on and questioned in-universe by characters in the books. Primarchs wring hands about if the Crusade is just, if it's right to do, and regret it when they have to fight. Even Lorgar's actions post-Monarchia (that you point out earlier) are deliberately shown to be BAD, because those humans would have joined and Larger just went straight to the fighting. Primarchs who really do think the Emperor is just a tyrant are mostly shown to be naive or short-sighted. All this if dependent on the idea that the Crusade IS ultimately a noble cause, but involved horrible things.
But, more importantly, it also makes 40k the tragedy it is - a noble idea in an uncaring universe, that has been twisted into the opposite. If the Emperor was a lying tyrant all along, a huge part of the setting is lost.
EDIT - rewritten and rearranged for clarity (but not before it got quoted dammit!)
Slipspace wrote: While an argument could be made to say we can't judge the Emperor's actions based on the morals and standards of today, the setting was designed as a semi-satirical dystopian society (with much of the satire now sadly having been expunged), so part of the point is to view it in terms of today's society. On that basis the Emperor is a tyrant. All this talk about him wanting to "save" humanity is exactly how other tyrants and despots justify their actions. It doesn't matter whether the Emperor truly, genuinely believes he's trying to do that or not.
Basically, if you believe the Emperor is trying to save humanity, and that makes everything alright, I think you may have catastrophically missed the point of the setting.
As said elsewhere, the entire setting, GW themselves, all the books HEAVILY IMPLY that the Emperor is correct in his belief that the Imperium is necessary to save humanity. Even the events post-Heresy kinda prove that. There are plenty of example in the HH series of Primarchs handwringing because they realise that the Crusade is a really harsh necessity. It's talked about constantly. Even the one example you give of the Word Bearers (post-monarchic) going out and trashing a civilisation is specifically shown as a bad thing because they didn't even give them a chance to join.
The Primarchs who do think of the Emperor as a tyrant are mostly shown to be incredibly short-sighted.
Of course, you could infer from all this that those Primarchs are right, it's all a massive conspiracy, that the Emperor is secretly just a tyrant - either well-meaning but wrong, or lying so he can hold on to power (despite being able to do that for 25000 years previous and...not) and that humanity would be absolutely fine without him.
But then I think you'd be missing the point of the setting. If you think that, then it's no longer a story about cosmic horror and being stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the tragedy of hubris ruining the only chance to change things. It's just a story about an evil ruler tricking people.
I thought its a known fact the Emperor wants to save humanity? Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm this. Its an irrefutable fact. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the from 1st Edition Rogue Trader show this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the Emperor wants to save humanity. Haven't I already said that Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind, and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm this? Its irrefutable.
The "lore" from 1st edition also says that the Emperor still communicates with his followers and that Astropaths, Navigatgors and half-Eldar can be Space Marines; things have changed since then.
Back to the point; what are you arguing against here? No-one's saying the Emperor didn't want to "save" humanity - they're saying that his definition of "save" is textbook tyranny - humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so; any competition is crushed before it can be held up as a counterexample. There were a couple of moustachioed gentlemen in the 1920s and 30s who thought the same way. The thing that gives 40k its texture is that, distasteful as it my be, the Emperor appears to be right.
pm713 wrote: The Emperor's incompetent and couldn't see the obvious really. That's the result of writing around vague lore though.
I don’t see why he would be obviously incompetent for not censuring Angron as harshly as the others. The World Eaters were conquering worlds quickly, their fleets were moving the borders of the imperium further, and much faster than say Lorgar. So what if a few billion here or there died, perhaps unnecessarily, when Angron showed up? If there is one thing the Imperium never suffered it was a shortage of humans. The Emperor was trying to get the Galaxy to come to heel as quickly as possible, as long as Angron didn’t turn and bit his masters hand I think the Emperor could have cared less. The big picture was still working even with Angron running around.
Angron was motivated purely by a desire to kill the enemy and was almost definitely going to be against the Emperor at some point given how badly he got shafted. Angron was essentially guaranteed to turn on the Imperium, he was an active detriment to his Legion and was an awful commander.
The World Eaters were better off before Angron, served better as an army and were more loyal to boot.
AndrewGPaul wrote: humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so;
Ding ding ding.
It's why the Farsight Enclaves are of so much interest to me, because they're a 40k example of the status quo being shown to be one giant self-fulfilling lie.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "lore" from 1st edition also says that the Emperor still communicates with his followers and that Astropaths, Navigatgors and half-Eldar can be Space Marines; things have changed since then.
Back to the point; what are you arguing against here? No-one's saying the Emperor didn't want to "save" humanity - they're saying that his definition of "save" is textbook tyranny - humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so; any competition is crushed before it can be held up as a counterexample. There were a couple of moustachioed gentlemen in the 1920s and 30s who thought the same way. The thing that gives 40k its texture is that, distasteful as it my be, the Emperor appears to be right.
And because Games Workshop says so. Do you have proof any other way or faction would have worked?
EDIT: Put it this way, the Interex was undone was Erebus stealing a Chaos artifact from their museum. If those factions could not hold off the Imperium, then they are not suitable for replacements.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "lore" from 1st edition also says that the Emperor still communicates with his followers and that Astropaths, Navigatgors and half-Eldar can be Space Marines; things have changed since then.
Back to the point; what are you arguing against here? No-one's saying the Emperor didn't want to "save" humanity - they're saying that his definition of "save" is textbook tyranny - humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so; any competition is crushed before it can be held up as a counterexample. There were a couple of moustachioed gentlemen in the 1920s and 30s who thought the same way. The thing that gives 40k its texture is that, distasteful as it my be, the Emperor appears to be right.
And because Games Workshop says so. Do you have proof any other way or faction would have worked?
EDIT: Put it this way, the Interex was undone was Erebus stealing a Chaos artifact from their museum. If those factions could not hold off the Imperium, then they are not suitable for replacements.
Spoken like a true tyrant. Might makes right, yes?
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders and knew how he felt.
Psychopaths can and do do things like this. They may not internally understand it or actually mean it, but lots of psychopaths have charmed the pants off people in many ways throughout history if it achieves their goals, whatever they may be.
Lets also be real, 40k has no strict canon, what the Emperor (or really almost any character) actually is, can and does shift and morph between different authors and books and editions.
I really don't think that the narrative or themes of 40K require that the Emperor has to be right. Sure, they require that a better way does not succeed, but they don't require that it fundamentally could not succeed. Emperor thinks he is right and that he is doing all these horrible things for a greater cause. That's what tyrants always do.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "lore" from 1st edition also says that the Emperor still communicates with his followers and that Astropaths, Navigatgors and half-Eldar can be Space Marines; things have changed since then.
Back to the point; what are you arguing against here? No-one's saying the Emperor didn't want to "save" humanity - they're saying that his definition of "save" is textbook tyranny - humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so; any competition is crushed before it can be held up as a counterexample. There were a couple of moustachioed gentlemen in the 1920s and 30s who thought the same way. The thing that gives 40k its texture is that, distasteful as it my be, the Emperor appears to be right.
And because Games Workshop says so. Do you have proof any other way or faction would have worked?
EDIT: Put it this way, the Interex was undone when Erebus stole a Chaos artifact from their museum. If those factions could not hold off the Imperium, then they are not suitable for replacements.
Spoken like a true tyrant. Might makes right, yes?
It basically proves the Imperium was the only way to fight off Chaos.
If the Interex can't even stop Erebus from undoing them when he stole a Chaos artifact, then why should we think they could possibly replace the Imperium?
And I already said that Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (Yes, I know 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity (though it looks like no one was denying that, so I'll drop it). And Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm it, for people who want recent lore.
And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?
Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".
And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?
Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".
The Imperium won because they are so much stronger than those other factions.
Its not possible any of those factions, including the Interex, could have handled what the Imperium did.
And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?
Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".
The Imperium won because they are so much stronger than those other factions.
Its not possible any of those factions, including the Interex, could have handled what the Imperium did.
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
This is the 40k universe, where basically everything is up to whatever author is writing it at the time. So much of this is fluff made up literally decades after the original stuff was written down (often with no thought given to, or any intent of ever getting into, the details of how it got there), by different authors with different views of the 40k universe. Most of the 40k universe falls apart and stops making sense at the briefest of contemplation
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
When did xenos intervene?
And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
When did xenos intervene?
And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
When did xenos intervene?
And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.
ArbitorIan wrote: Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.
Ialways thought this explanation to be weak and not well thought out. The Emperor wanted to defeat the god of war and slaughter by massacring everybody who sood in his way and conquering millions of worlds. He wanted to trick the god o of deceit. He wanted to terrorise fear into submission and smoehow that was supposed to be such a humble plan that pride itself would vanish. Of course, you don't kill war with war, you kill it with kindness and gentleness. You don't kill fear (especially fear of death and disease) by virus bombing planets full of people or threatening them to do so. You don't stop lying by lying yourself and building your entire ideology on deceit. You don't defeat extremism by building an extremist society and you certainly don't defeat pride and arrogance by thinking that you are the savior of an entire race. Violence, fear, deceit and vanity are the very essence of the gods of chaos. The Emperor's entire plan rests upon them. The Gods of Chaos never had a better enemy. One that would fuel them to ludicrous height and whose solution to the inferno would be to build an even bigger fire. The Emperor is a madman, but humanity saw in him its greatest genius and leader because that's the joke, humans are ridiculously stupid and easily swayed toward their most brutal instincts. That's the dystopian part, if a man presented himself with a plan as ridiculous as the Emperor's people would follow him. Humans love the concept of "the war that will end all wars". Sadly, we did, many times, and we will keep doing it for centuries to come in my opinion. The 40K univers is simply a grotesque caricature of that reality in my opinion.
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
When did xenos intervene?
And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.
The Eldar throwing in their lot with the Imperium has been crucial during Black Crusades and in frustrating the designs and plans of the forces of Chaos in many instances. We don't know what those other early factions could or could not handle (and none of the authors ever intended to ponder that) or what would have developed in the subsequent ten thousand years of history, most of which would be radically different without the Imperium and half its armies going over to the forces of Chaos at the start.
Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.
Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.
Necrons also helped quite a bit in defeating the forces of Chaos several times. Their technology is uniquely designed to defeat the forces of the Warp.
Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.
The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.
And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.
The Necrons have reality warping technology. And the C'tan can create black holes and destroy solar systems as shown in the 8th Edition Necron Codex on page 9. Page 9 in the 8th Edition Necron Codex. And they are not a human faction.
Vaktathi wrote: Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.
Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.
When did xenos intervene?
And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.
You're not right.
So prove it.
Why? You never do, and any attempt at an actual discussion with you seems to be an exercise in futility, so I thought I'd take a leaf out of your book instead.
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway. [
It looks like you literally answered your own question immediately after someone replied. Don't ask asinine questions if you already know the answer and just want to argue/recite quotes like some sort of MLA citation bot.
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway. [
It looks like you literally answered your own question immediately after someone replied. Don't ask asinine questions if you already know the answer and just want to argue/recite quotes like some sort of MLA citation bot.
We don't know what would have happened without the Emperor. Perhaps Chaos would have eaten the galaxy, perhaps the Eldar would have re-established their empire, perhaps the varying xeno species and human realms would have come together and formed a Star Trek style federation.
Crimson wrote: We don't know what would have happened without the Emperor. Perhaps Chaos would have eaten the galaxy, perhaps the Eldar would have re-established their empire, perhaps the varying xeno species and human realms would have come together and formed a Star Trek style federation.
Kind of like how they formed a Star Trek style Federation in the DAOT, and then most of the aliens turned on them in the Age of Strife.
Its safe to say humanity would have died without the Emperor, as humanity came close to extinction in the Age of Strife.
Crimson wrote: DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.
And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.
Crimson wrote: DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.
And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.
Humans turned against humans at the same time. Following your logic that means all humans should be exterminated too since they pose a threat to humans.
Crimson wrote: DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.
And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.
Actually it's a supposition. It's just as likely humans turned on them, or they got tired of taking collateral damage in human conflicts.
But its a much better narrative for the Emperor's and the Imperium's purposes if the filthy xenos were the wrongdoers and humanity the victims.
You're mistaking 'fact' for 'point of view' again.
Crimson wrote: DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.
And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.
Actually it's a supposition. It's just as likely humans turned on them, or they got tired of taking collateral damage in human conflicts.
But its a much better narrative for the Emperor's and the Imperium's purposes if the filthy xenos were the wrongdoers and humanity the victims.
You're mistaking 'fact' for 'point of view' again.
It was noted that humanity was at peace with aliens in the DAOT, and that the aliens turned on them, or at least hostile ones swooped in.
Crimson wrote: DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.
And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.
Humans turned against humans at the same time. Following your logic that means all humans should be exterminated too since they pose a threat to humans.
In the Emperor's mind, the Age of Strife proves most if not all aliens are evil and should be destroyed. He is not going to destroy all humans for being hostile to each other because he wants humanity to psychically evolve and become the dominant species of the cosmos. He is a human supremacist. Even if he tolerated aliens, he would have humans on top.
Sterling191 wrote: And now we're back to "a little bit of genocide is ok, as long as the right people are getting exterminated".
I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.
I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.
While simultaneously ignoring and justifying the slaughter of countless non-compliant human populations because "hey, you gotta break some eggs to make a psychically evolved omelette".
I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.
While simultaneously ignoring and justifying the slaughter of countless non-compliant human populations because "hey, you gotta break some eggs to make a psychically evolved omelette".
I would not say there were "countless" non-complaint humans slaughtered, as it would make more sense to just conquer them (and that is mostly what the Emperor did). Besides, most of that comes from the Forgeworld books.
regarding the Emperor's intent, that is utterly IRRELEVANT. History lesson time guys, When Stalin came to power, Communist Russia was, economicly speaking, a basket case. Russia was NOT a modern nation and it's infanmstructure was essentially incapable of building as modern war machine, Stalin belived that in 10-20 years the west would invade and try to crush the Communist government (BTW he was right, Hitler invaded in 1941) so Stalin belived he needed to strengthen the USSR and do it fast, too fast to worry about anything like human rights etc. This is the reason for his 5 year plans his purges etc. You could make an arguement that a LOT of what he did was nesscary... it's irrelevant the man is remembered as one of the great monsters of the 20th century.
I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.
Onething123456 wrote: And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.
You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?
Alrighty then.
I said other factions cannot handle Chaos since they cannot handle the Imperium
Well that's because the Imperium is the main character and are plot armoured. Eldar can conceivably kill them off as can Dark Eldar. Tyranids and Orks are outright stated to be strong enough apart from their 'buts'. The Necrons can do it too.
The Imperium can't handle Chaos itself either hence why they need other races to keep existing.
I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.
Onething123456 wrote: And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.
You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?
Alrighty then.
I said other factions cannot handle Chaos since they cannot handle the Imperium
Well that's because the Imperium is the main character and are plot armoured. Eldar can conceivably kill them off as can Dark Eldar. Tyranids and Orks are outright stated to be strong enough apart from their 'buts'. The Necrons can do it too.
The Imperium can't handle Chaos itself either hence why they need other races to keep existing.
No one can. Chaos is almost Lovecraftian. Chaos is nigh-omnipotent within the warp.
Slipspace wrote: There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged?
The ability to create something is not the same as the ability to repair it. A glass blower can make a beautiful vase but if you drop it and smash it, they can't put it back together the way it was. At best they might re-use the raw material but it is hinted that the creation of the Primarchs was a one-off endevour based on the Emperor stealing a portion of the Chaos Gods' power (although this claim is made by a daemon so is rather suspect).
We also know that Angron was dying. It was only a matter of time before the Nails killed him. This is another reason for not bothering to sanction him harder. He was a dead man walking, even if he didn't know it yet. There was no point into trying to redeem or reform Angron if he was just going to die anyway. Best to get the mileage out of him while he was still alive and kicking. As others have said, while not ideal, he did get the job done (provided you didn't care too much about the collateral damage).
Whilst the World Eaters indulged their massacre habit more than most, it's implied the Wolves were more prevalant in their use of planet-wide genocide - ref Gulliman's commentary on the terms 'Totality' and 'Skira Vordrotta' (System Kill) in Betrayer
Ultimately the Emperor is an absolute pragmatist. He has/had a vision of the future he was trying to achieve. As far as he was concerned:
1 - It was the only way Humanity as a species could survive long term. (I'm not arguing whether this is true or not; simply that the Emperor believed it was true and that's basically all that matters)
2 - Therefore (to him) any act was pre-justified in pursuing it up to an including creating religions, chaos sorcery, use of xenos technology and exterminating a non-trivial proportion of the emergent psyker gene population as a disposable asset
3 - Therefore (to him) anything which was useful was tolerated and anything which moved from not actively useful to actively inconvenient was pretty quickly destroyed
I'm not saying he didn't feel empathy or didn't care that Angron's astartes massacred the population of hive so-and-so. I'm saying he didn't care enough because as long as the XII were still a directable weapon results mattered more than ethics.
Note that Russ' intervention against the World Eaters was 'self-authorised', not with Imperial Authority - a bluff which Angron calls him on shortly before it all goes to hell.
locarno24 wrote: Whilst the World Eaters indulged their massacre habit more than most, it's implied the Wolves were more prevalant in their use of planet-wide genocide - ref Gulliman's commentary on the terms 'Totality' and 'Skira Vordrotta' (System Kill) in Betrayer
Ultimately the Emperor is an absolute pragmatist. He has/had a vision of the future he was trying to achieve. As far as he was concerned:
1 - It was the only way Humanity as a species could survive long term. (I'm not arguing whether this is true or not; simply that the Emperor believed it was true and that's basically all that matters)
2 - Therefore (to him) any act was pre-justified in pursuing it up to an including creating religions, chaos sorcery, use of xenos technology and exterminating a non-trivial proportion of the emergent psyker gene population as a disposable asset
3 - Therefore (to him) anything which was useful was tolerated and anything which moved from not actively useful to actively inconvenient was pretty quickly destroyed
I'm not saying he didn't feel empathy or didn't care that Angron's astartes massacred the population of hive so-and-so. I'm saying he didn't care enough because as long as the XII were still a directable weapon results mattered more than ethics.
Note that Russ' intervention against the World Eaters was 'self-authorised', not with Imperial Authority - a bluff which Angron calls him on shortly before it all goes to hell.
The Emperor basically only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity. He did send Russ after him to make him face justice, but that was near the end of the Crusade during the Horus Heresy.
The Emperor created a legion like the Space Wolves as a Terror Force.
Hairy, fanged, animal eyed and completely ruthless. Russ actually reigned in some of these features, in particular the complete ruthlessness.
So Angron comes along and the World Eaters with the Butcher’s Nails take the Space Wolves original role, what does the Emperor care? He made a Legion for that role, they went in a different path but kept conquering worlds at a great rate. The World Eaters are now the terror force spreading fear of the consequences of refusing to bend the knee to the Emperor.
Russ goes to confront Angron but as Angron questions we the audience never actually see/hear/read any part where the Emperor actually sends Russ, we just get Russ saying it’s his job.
There is a video on YouTube claiming that the Rebels are actually the bad guys in Star Wars, they do a really bang up job of pointing out how the Rebels are little more than terrorists attacking a stable leadership.
There are two names that blow this story out of the water and the video quite happily points them out at the end - Death Star and Alderaan.
This is the only example in IV, V and VI of the Empire’s evil but it is the only one needed, blowing apart a peaceful planet to show they’re not to be screwed with.
The Space Wolves are the Death Star, the World Eaters are the Death Star mkii and there are enough Alderaans that the authors don’t even bother naming them.
Dakka Wolf wrote: The Emperor created a legion like the Space Wolves as a Terror Force.
Hairy, fanged, animal eyed and completely ruthless. Russ actually reigned in some of these features, in particular the complete ruthlessness.
So Angron comes along and the World Eaters with the Butcher’s Nails take the Space Wolves original role, what does the Emperor care? He made a Legion for that role, they went in a different path but kept conquering worlds at a great rate. The World Eaters are now the terror force spreading fear of the consequences of refusing to bend the knee to the Emperor.
Russ goes to confront Angron but as Angron questions we the audience never actually see/hear/read any part where the Emperor actually sends Russ, we just get Russ saying it’s his job.
There is a video on YouTube claiming that the Rebels are actually the bad guys in Star Wars, they do a really bang up job of pointing out how the Rebels are little more than terrorists attacking a stable leadership.
There are two names that blow this story out of the water and the video quite happily points them out at the end - Death Star and Alderaan.
This is the only example in IV, V and VI of the Empire’s evil but it is the only one needed, blowing apart a peaceful planet to show they’re not to be screwed with.
The Space Wolves are the Death Star, the World Eaters are the Death Star mkii and there are enough Alderaans that the authors don’t even bother naming them.
And YouTube videos aren't always accurate/
Many of the EU books show how brutal and evil the empire was. The empire oppressed the galaxy as it shows in the EU books.
And the fact it blew up a planet just for testing with billions of people proves the empire was the bad guys.
pm713 wrote: How was Angron of all people NEEDED...
Interstellar tyrants need their tools of mass murder.
Yeah with off buttons. Russ, Horus, Lion, Corax and basically most Primarchs were good at mass murder but they also didn't have everyone they cared about killed by the Emperor and have torture devices in their brains. Angron is not a good tool, he is not a good soldier, he isn't a good anything unless you count liabilities as good. He should have been left on his planet.
pm713 wrote: How was Angron of all people NEEDED...
Interstellar tyrants need their tools of mass murder.
Yeah with off buttons. Russ, Horus, Lion, Corax and basically most Primarchs were good at mass murder but they also didn't have everyone they cared about killed by the Emperor and have torture devices in their brains. Angron is not a good tool, he is not a good soldier, he isn't a good anything unless you count liabilities as good. He should have been left on his planet.
Not really. The way Angron's and Kurze's brothers are horrified at their actions suggests that their behavior is exclusive mostly to them.
He really didn't. A Primarch is ultimately one person and Legions functioned well before them. World Eaters went from an actual army to a wasteful horde.
That's just wrong. If you don't think all the Primarchs count as mass murderers at times then you need a better dictionary.
pm713 wrote: He really didn't. A Primarch is ultimately one person and Legions functioned well before them. World Eaters went from an actual army to a wasteful horde.
That's just wrong. If you don't think all the Primarchs count as mass murderers at times then you need a better dictionary.
If that's the case, how do you explain the quote below?
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
This would imply what Angron and Kurze did was mostly exclusive to themselves. But I have been wrong before.
