So we’re still more than a year away from the culmination of the sequel triolgy. And I’m actually looking forward to a full on home cinema binge of every film and series to date over Chrimbo.
No, I don’t care what you think about any of it, and you shouldn’t concern yourself with my own opinion. Because none of that actually matters in the run of things. Or in other words derail this thread with the same stuff you’ve been saying about Episode VIII, and we’ll have a falling ouf.
But....Episode IX, eh?
I’m very intrigued to see how the plot strings are pulled together.
But.....butl.....i for one have single item upon my wish list. It seems inevitable that Ben/Kylo and Rey are going to have a proper scrap. With lightsabers. And the one thing I want from that is for it to be set to the very best thing out of the prequel Trilogy. And that’s John Williams’ Duel of the Fates.
What a beautiful way to tie the three trilogies together. And what a genuinely top notch piece of music.
Right. Off you go. But remember. No nonsense about the previous films. Because ultimately, they all made money, and nobody really cares all that much.
Can the Spirit Level effect of Solo outweigh the Chives effect of TLJ and drag me back in ?
I'm really not sure I'm all that bothered, we live in a peak geek world and theres now so many flavours of nerd available that whilst Star Wars is still one of bigger players there's entertainment to be had elsewhere
plus it'll be admitting the Princess is really gone
It's really hard to discuss Episode IX without talking about Episode VIII and how absolutely horrific it is. I'm not excited at all to watch it but will probably end up seeing it because I love the theater experience and will seize just about any opportunity to go. My theory for IX is that Matt Smith joined the cast to turn it into a Doctor Who spinoff where he goes back in time and undoes the entirety of VIII.
creeping-deth87 wrote: My theory for IX is that Matt Smith joined the cast to turn it into a Doctor Who spinoff where he goes back in time and undoes the entirety of VIII.
A completely wacky prediction:
Spoiler:
Matt Smith shows up at the end of the film as Ezra Bridger, arrived after all is right with the universe (because showing up sooner would be like way too convenient) to announce he'll help Rey complete her training.
I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
For IX I am trying to stay away from as many rumours and theories this time because they are all just ridiculous. I have faith in JJ Abrams to make a good movie , hopefully he figures out a good way to incorporate the huge cast as there are a lot of characters going to be involved.
Commander Cain wrote: I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
I had a similar reaction. I mean, there's still some really stupid gak in there, but I found that I enjoyed the better bits more and was irritated by the gak bits less.
I have faith in JJ as a director and producer, but his track record as a writer is... meh. It's hard to tell at times how much of his work is JJ making a bad or mediocre script functional and how much is JJ just not knowing what to do with a bad or mediocre script.
That said my faith was broken when Chris Terrio was identified as working on the script.
Who the hell watches Batman vs Superman Dawn of Justice and Justice Leage, and decides the guy who wrote those stories needs more work?
I hope there is a scene where Rey and Ben sit down, milk an alien walrus, and drink its milk together to hash out their differences. The Benicio Del Toro's character shows up and tells us all how nothing matters and the two Jedi kill him with a Bondian quip.
Commander Cain wrote: I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
I had a similar reaction. I mean, there's still some really stupid gak in there, but I found that I enjoyed the better bits more and was irritated by the gak bits less.
I've watched it three times now(cinema, second watch out of fairness to see if it improved, third time torture session thanks to a friend's kids), and it hasn't improved with additional viewings IMO. If anything it's worse, because now the issues are less Fridge Logic experienced after the fact, and more just things I've already spotted and find annoying/disappointing playing out in real time.
Still, given they're flipping back to JJ I don't know how much VIII can really tell us about IX beyond the barest of frameworks for the setup. He may be an overrated hack with a massive over reliance on "woooo mystery boooooox!" guff and who's idea of "plot" consists of whatever bare minimum is necessary to staple his set-pieces together, but it's rare he produces anything that goes all the way to bad, and he doesn't seem to actively take pride in the idea his work might disappoint half the audience, so I expect the worst we could have to look forward to is another TFA - watchable, bit uninspiring, bit too reliant on callbacks, standard JJ problems with pacing and unearned(and thus, flat) emotional moments. Either way, I won't be bothering to see it in the cinema.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It seems inevitable that Ben/Kylo and Rey are going to have a proper scrap. With lightsabers.
Doc ... I shortened your text for my own nefarious purposes ...
I agree with you ... but I also see them (subsequently) getting it on ... (obviously not on screen ... after all, this is Star Wars!) ... But I could really see that happening.
I'd not seen an OP requesting conversation about the final instalment of a trilogy not include conversation about its immediate predecessor before now.
I predict phasma will turn up alive but a horrible evil burned cyborg a'la Vader that Finn and his nee squeeze have to fight while Rey settles with with kylo and we find out what really happened in snoke's throneroon.
Earth127 wrote: I have no clue VIII made predicting hard/ impossible untill we get a trailer or something.
Agreed. Last Jedi ended exactly where it started (rebels fleeing a planet), so there isn't any indication of what Abrams wants to do. They could go the Return of the Jedi route, do a side mission, then hook up with a sudden fleet and have a giant space battle that randomly decides everything, or they could futz around with B plots for 2.5 hours and resolve nothing. Or anything in between. Or something else entirely. Rey's parents could show up from the Outer Dark, kill Kyle and the first order, and establish peace and justice in the universe. Or we could see the effect of Thanos' fingersnap on the Star Wars universe. It's seriously whatever.
I'd argue Luke and Snoke being dead is kind of a big change in the situation.
Not sure that really needs a spoiler tag, by this stage in the piece...
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creeping-deth87 wrote: It's really hard to discuss Episode IX without talking about Episode VIII and how absolutely horrific it is. I'm not excited at all to watch it but will probably end up seeing it because I love the theater experience and will seize just about any opportunity to go. My theory for IX is that Matt Smith joined the cast to turn it into a Doctor Who spinoff where he goes back in time and undoes the entirety of VIII.
However you may feel about how it got there, TLJ left off in a perfect jump-off position for the next movie, IMO, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where JJ goes with it... For all it's flaws, TFA was a hell of a lot of fun to watch, and I expect the same from EP IX.
Commander Cain wrote: I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
For IX I am trying to stay away from as many rumours and theories this time because they are all just ridiculous. I have faith in JJ Abrams to make a good movie , hopefully he figures out a good way to incorporate the huge cast as there are a lot of characters going to be involved.
I also recently watched Jedi again for the first time since seeing it in the theater. However, I ended up disliking it even more so. It just confirmed all my thoughts regarding it.
I can’t get exited about IX, because at best it’ll just seem like damage limitation to me. I’ve become more interested in the Story series, but I don’t know where they are now production wise. Solo paid the price in part for Jedi.
I'd argue Luke and Snoke being dead is kind of a big change in the situation.
You'd be wrong. The first had no presence in the overall story of the new trilogy beyond a mythical figure. The second was set up in TLJ to be complete interchangeable with Kyle. It doesn't matter which one of them is in charge, and had no impact on the First Order's apparently infinite resources.
Lance845 wrote:Empire ALSO ended where it started. The rebels fleeing from a planet with the superior empire forces having delivered a blow.
You'd also be wrong.
Empire opens with the Rebels escaping Hoth intact, and ends with the rebels coming together in a fleet. The meat of that film centered around the psychological journeys, travails and growth of the main characters, which actually mattered.
8 mirrors 6 far more than it does 5, except for the failure to assign any meaning or consequence to the confrontations.
I can’t get excited for IX because all the potential story threads started by VII have been so badly butchered by VIII. I feel like if they do anything to try and correct Jedi’s mistakes, it’ll just feel like a cop out.
Well will be going to see it more of out of duty to see how the trainwreck ends but without even Luke to entertain like in VIII not expecting even passable movie out of it.
So we’re still more than a year away from the culmination of the sequel triolgy. And I’m actually looking forward to a full on home cinema binge of every film and series to date over Chrimbo.
No, I don’t care what you think about any of it, and you shouldn’t concern yourself with my own opinion. Because none of that actually matters in the run of things. Or in other words derail this thread with the same stuff you’ve been saying about Episode VIII, and we’ll have a falling ouf.
But....Episode IX, eh?
I’m very intrigued to see how the plot strings are pulled together.
But.....butl.....i for one have single item upon my wish list. It seems inevitable that Ben/Kylo and Rey are going to have a proper scrap. With lightsabers. And the one thing I want from that is for it to be set to the very best thing out of the prequel Trilogy. And that’s John Williams’ Duel of the Fates.
What a beautiful way to tie the three trilogies together. And what a genuinely top notch piece of music.
Right. Off you go. But remember. No nonsense about the previous films. Because ultimately, they all made money, and nobody really cares all that much.
Crack on.
So you donlt want to go one about the last terrible POS film because "no one cares" - yeah your not biased at all.
Answering you actual question. Wish list: They start from the end of episode 7 and pretend the torrent of pure unadultered excretment that was episode 8 never existed.
IF the show lurches on after the shitstorm of the last film it jumps twenty years sor more so we can have a whole new cast. Or Kylo wakes up and realises that it was all a dream, and then shoots himself.
I'll watch it if it gets to sky but wioll not spend any more money on it in the cinema.
Ren and Ben having a lightsaber fight is so obvious its not worth even wising for it.
Still, given they're flipping back to JJ I don't know how much VIII can really tell us about IX beyond the barest of frameworks for the setup. He may be an overrated hack with a massive over reliance on "woooo mystery boooooox!" guff and who's idea of "plot" consists of whatever bare minimum is necessary to staple his set-pieces together, but it's rare he produces anything that goes all the way to bad, and he doesn't seem to actively take pride in the idea his work might disappoint half the audience, so I expect the worst we could have to look forward to is another TFA - watchable, bit uninspiring, bit too reliant on callbacks, standard JJ problems with pacing and unearned(and thus, flat) emotional moments.
I think the whole 'mystery box' -angle is massively overhyped. There were Mystery Boxes in 'Lost' but I am not sure they were his doing. His Star Trek movies really had no mystery boxes, neither did TFA, it was mostly just fans making stuff up in their heads because of the bad examples set by earlier Star Wars lore.
Problem with JJAb really is that he doesn't see the scripts as a movie but rather a framework for series of cool scenes. He even admitted as much regarding 'Into Darkness' which even he wasn't very satisfied about.
There were rumours that EpIX would be released in two parts. That is not very encouraging and hints that the script is a mess - if it is true, that is.
Any way, it is not hard to think up where they can go with EpIX plot. While Resistance itself is essentially DOA, there are other factions in the Galaxy which could fight First Order, if they choose to do so. They mentioned that in EpVIII, after all. So the plot could be about Resistance trying to organize and convince rest of the Galaxy to fight FO before they get too strong, and it would climax in a massive fleet battle. What's not to like! What I am afraid, however, is that they will do yet another 'Evil Empire Superweapon plotline' and we will end up with lame remake of EpVI. Because it is a Star Wars movie, we need to have something really big getting blown up as a result of super daring infiltration mission.
What? TFA was all mystery boxes. Where's Luke? Rey's parents? Rey's powers? Snoke? How did Ren turn? Knights of Ren? How First Order? How Republic? How no Empire? How saber? How Falcon? How red arm? How Han such loser? Why Leia cold to Chewie? How Starkiller? Why Luke run? How Maz know? Why nothing make sense everything crap galaxy broken scale shot to hell all OT payoffs end in bitter ashes wtfJJ?
But at least we both agree JJ has no idea how to make a coherent movie.
Well SW9 has a big problem, I. E. No Carrie fisher.
The last trilogy was meant to finish the stories of he 3 main characters from the first trilogy, Han, luke, Leia.
7 was the finish of Hands story, 8 was the finish if lukecs story.
9 was going to finish Leai's story. Without carrie fisher to play leia that's shot. Whole new movie has to be dine now that will be out of sync with the last 2.
Oh wells maybe JJA will get to introduce a new super weapon, the lensflare star, the biggest lensflare effect in he universe! A lensflare capable of destroying the entire galaxy in a single shot.
Still, given they're flipping back to JJ I don't know how much VIII can really tell us about IX beyond the barest of frameworks for the setup. He may be an overrated hack with a massive over reliance on "woooo mystery boooooox!" guff and who's idea of "plot" consists of whatever bare minimum is necessary to staple his set-pieces together, but it's rare he produces anything that goes all the way to bad, and he doesn't seem to actively take pride in the idea his work might disappoint half the audience, so I expect the worst we could have to look forward to is another TFA - watchable, bit uninspiring, bit too reliant on callbacks, standard JJ problems with pacing and unearned(and thus, flat) emotional moments.
I think the whole 'mystery box' -angle is massively overhyped. There were Mystery Boxes in 'Lost' but I am not sure they were his doing. His Star Trek movies really had no mystery boxes, neither did TFA, it was mostly just fans making stuff up in their heads because of the bad examples set by earlier Star Wars lore.
Problem with JJAb really is that he doesn't see the scripts as a movie but rather a framework for series of cool scenes. He even admitted as much regarding 'Into Darkness' which even he wasn't very satisfied about.
There were rumours that EpIX would be released in two parts. That is not very encouraging and hints that the script is a mess - if it is true, that is.
Any way, it is not hard to think up where they can go with EpIX plot. While Resistance itself is essentially DOA, there are other factions in the Galaxy which could fight First Order, if they choose to do so. They mentioned that in EpVIII, after all. So the plot could be about Resistance trying to organize and convince rest of the Galaxy to fight FO before they get too strong, and it would climax in a massive fleet battle. What's not to like!.
A lot. Because currently, none of those factions exist. They'd have to name and flesh out literally all of them, explain why they weren't there in 7 or 8, and why they're suddenly capable of doing something now.
The First Order is already too strong, with fleets and super weapons and 'fleet destroyer' ships (that shouldn't be destroyed because reasons) and seemingly infinite personnel and resources and the New New Republic was already decapitated and lost its single conveniently parked fleet to a super weapon blast.
Techpriestsupport wrote:
Well SW9 has a big problem, I. E. No Carrie fisher.
Honestly, lack of Leia isn't really a problem. Lack of Carrie Fisher is sad, but the lack of the character is kinda whatever. She waffled between not doing anything and terrible, contradictory and hypocritical command advice, then spontaneously manifested Superman's powers for no reason and no purpose beyond saving herself. And since Luke and Han's story finish was 'became terrible people between trilogies and get summarily killed off,' I don't think we're lacking anything by not getting to see how they'll maltreat the end of Leia's story arc.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I hope he has Ewoks. But not your dad's Ewoks. These Ewoks are twice as big.
Oh. Suddenly I can't unsee the possibility that Abrams will just use Lucas' old script with Wookies helping defeat the Empire instead of Ewoks, totally missing the fact that it was discarded because Chewie made the Wookies seem like they'd not be primitive enough for the theme Lucas wanted to convey.
Lance845 wrote: Empire ALSO ended where it started. The rebels fleeing from a planet with the superior empire forces having delivered a blow.
Empire opens hoth. Their fethed run.
Empire ends cloud city. Everyone barely escapes and luke looses ahand. Their fethed run.
And where to they run to? The Rebel Fleet, confirming the Rebellion is still in the fight and still has a lot of resources to call on.
Where does VIII end? A dozen survivors on an old, beat up, maintenance-intensive hunk of junk. Granted, it's a fast, heavily armed hunk of junk with a pretty glorious history in the Rebellion, but it's not taking on even an ancient Victory class Star Destroyer, much less a First Order Resurgent class Star Destroyer (much less a couple dozen of them!). And what else do they have? Some vague allies who couldn't even be bothered to come help them in their darkest hour.
Twelve people vs. the First Order war machine. At best, you're looking at a decade of rebuilding capabilities, and even then that will depend heavily on the goodwill of someone to finance it... and judging by the resources shown thus far by the Resistance, I don't think they've got anyone that wealthy now that Leia is gone.
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Earth127 wrote: I thought we aren't supposed to discuss the merits of TLJ int this thread.
How do you discuss a sequel without discussing what came before? All the more because there's exactly ZERO official information about episode IX to discuss in the first place...
I expect a remake of VI. TFA felt like such a rip off, and then I was astonished that they went and did the same thing for TLJ. DIsney SW is a modern, woke remake of the OT. I know how pathetic it sounds, but I honestly feel let down and betrayed by Star Wars. I hope to god a big budget 40k movie never gets made
On a more specific level, I expect another planet killer weapon that gets destroyed at the end, Rey's compassion for Kylo Ren leading to her attempting to bring him back, and him sacrificing himself after their fight to save the good guys. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a Jabba equivalent at the start, possibly an actual relation to Jabba himself. At this point I wouldn't even be that shocked if it turned out Jabba had survived somehow...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What? TFA was all mystery boxes. Where's Luke? Rey's parents? Rey's powers? Snoke? How did Ren turn? Knights of Ren? How First Order? How Republic? How no Empire? How saber? How Falcon? How red arm? How Han such loser? Why Leia cold to Chewie? How Starkiller? Why Luke run? How Maz know? Why nothing make sense everything crap galaxy broken scale shot to hell all OT payoffs end in bitter ashes wtfJJ?
"Where's Luke" is not a mystery box, simply a 'mystery' which was resolved during the course of the movie. As to why he left, it was already explained in the movie, though Luke elaborated it in TLJ.
Rey's parentage was not a mystery. It was part of Rey's character that she was orphaned and didn't remember her parents and daydreamed about them maybe coming back and everything having a reason. Others paid no attention to that, and Maz flat out told her to get over it. I was 100% sure that her parents were nobodies, or at very least somebody not connected to previous SW lore. She had Force powers because sometimes young people living in desert planets are strong in Force. You see, it's like poetry, it rhymes...
Snoke had no mystery around him. Nobody talked about him like he was some kind of mysterious character. They seemed to know who he was. He was not a Sith so he couldn't have been Darth Plagieous (sp?) or whatever. People came up with (bad) fan theories because he was not that well set up (JJ just chose him from a lineup of visuals designed by studio) and "The Leader" is not self-explanatory in same way as "The Emperor".
OP wrote:Dakka, please. Don't derail this thread complaining about VIII and turn it into another garbage fire.
Dakka wrote:Its ok! I brought the bins from the last nine threads!
In fact, there's plenty to speculate on:
Loose threads from TFA not touched by TLJ - things like the other republic worlds, its (limited) standing army, what other remnants not immediately tied to the Resistance might factor into the later story - things that people thought might feature in TLJ but didn't on account of it taking place hours after the last movie ended. Many of these things are still in play, and some things that would fall in this category have been added to since (through the new cartoon and Inferno Squad from Battlefront 2, which also killed off all its OT era characters to keep with the ST theme).
Narrative trajectory post TLJ - There really is a lot to talk about here: between the 'next trillogy' rumors and the 'nobody came' bit from TLJ the Resistance/Light Side/All Encompassing Forces of Good actually seem to be on their way to defeat here - thereby leading to a bad-guy status quo for whatever comes after, but the question is what that status quo is going to look like?
So long as Snoke was in charge Kylo and Hux could only really snipe at each other verbally, but now that he's dead (and you KNOW Hux knows why) those cracks are going to get worse and worse - Hux himself is emblematic of the First Order at large: a true believer in the higher cause, loyal through-and-through to Snoke, and more than willing to lash out recklessly at whatever he can justify calling his enemy. That is something that's going to have to be addressed - and the consequence of it could mean that either Kylo or the First Order will ultimately win out, but not both.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But.....butl.....i for one have single item upon my wish list. It seems inevitable that Ben/Kylo and Rey are going to have a proper scrap. With lightsabers. And the one thing I want from that is for it to be set to the very best thing out of the prequel Trilogy. And that’s John Williams’ Duel of the Fates.
What a beautiful way to tie the three trilogies together. And what a genuinely top notch piece of music.
You know how in the first Hobbit movie, Thorin walks towards this fateful battle he's going to have with that CGI orc and it plays the ringwraith theme for no reason? For me, Duel of the Fates was always about the battle of the old Jedi order against a resurgent Sith threat, once the Sith win... it doesn't appear again, not even in RoTJ with the new Sith order fighting a resurgent Jedi threat.
If the idea was to be revisited though... maybe a new version using a different part of the Cad Goddeu?
I’m very apprehensive about IX, it’s not like post force awakens and after rogue one came out where I was telling my mates they did a good job with rogue one and episode VIII should be good, since episode VIII and solo it’s really hard to defend Disney wars, they are so awful.
JJ makes me nervous about IX certainly, but I'm still looking forward to it. My big concern is that it will retreat to the safety of VII rather than build on VIII. I like JJ as a question man but now its time for answers and that's just never been is strong suit.
Solo was good imo. Both the Anthology movies are good. I’m actually looking forward to those much more than the main trilogy. Though after Solo’s performance, I’m worried about where they are at present.
And yeah, that’s a big issue with JJ isn’t it? He faffs about too much with his mystery boxes and doesn’t pay attention to the little details...or even the resolution to said mystery boxes. Still, I will praise him for returning to puppetry. That and the designs. The aesthetics of the new movies are the one thing I definitely can’t fault.
Solo is a decent B-movie, which would have put in a passable, if slightly lower than expectation, return if not for internal fupwittery with reshoots, regigs and wotnot, its 'failure' is totally on Disney management rather than the 'wrong' kind of fans
1) Rey's lightstaff. Seriously, this needs to happen. Preferably one side green, one side blue.
2) Force Ghosts. Preferably Anakin and Obi-wan to tie the saga together, but Force Ghost Luke is an absolute MUST at this point.
3) Some kind of retcons to "fix" VIII. Don't get me wrong, I like VIII, but it subverted expectations just to subvert them. If things get a bit retconned to fit JJs original plans, it would make VIII more palatable for many people.
Rey being a "nobody" for example, can easily be a lie Snoke planted in Kylo's vision.
Not holding my breath, but I'd lose my mind if Rey turned out to be both a SKywalker (Luke's daughter) AND a Kenobi (Obi-wan's Granddaughter). Afterall, Obi-wan's had plenty of time to have a daughter that could have grown up and married Luke.
Rey as Luke's long-lost daughter and kin to Obi-Wan???? I would puke if that is how they explained Rey's existence. A lazy bunch of writing from unimaginative dolts, if that's what happens ... if you ask me.
And making Rey discover she's a long lost Dumbledore is a trope that was ridiculous before Cartman's Mom. At this point I just hope we meet Rey's long lost evil twin, with the eyepatch and pinky rings.
MDSW wrote: Rey as Luke's long-lost daughter and kin to Obi-Wan???? I would puke if that is how they explained Rey's existence. A lazy bunch of writing from unimaginative dolts, if that's what happens ... if you ask me.
Icd like to have explained Rey as a genetic experiment palatine commissioned to create a new apprentice using DNA from several force users including luke and Vader. He might bave had met made female hoping a female apprentice would be less likely to rebel.
A rebellion force rescuer her as a small child from an imperial genetics lab and left her later to lead imperial pursuit away. That might have explained her better.
tneva82 wrote: Well will be going to see it more of out of duty to see how the trainwreck ends but without even Luke to entertain like in VIII not expecting even passable movie out of it.
Hamill is cast for 9, although presumably his parts would be limited to flashbacks and/or ghostly apparitions...
9 was going to finish Leai's story. Without carrie fisher to play leia that's shot. Whole new movie has to be dine now that will be out of sync with the last 2.
The obvious thing to do would be to mirror RotJ and suddenly announce that Leia has a sister that we didn't know about until just now.
Ah, I've got it! Phasma isn't dead, just badly wounded. She recovers, hears that her estranged sister has died, goes mad with grief and defects. Steals Leia's face, and takes over leadership of the Resistance!
Duel of the Fates was 1 gallon of ice cream that was mixed with 9 gallons of manure that was the PT. You know what you get when you mix 1 gallon of ice cream with 9 gallons of manure? 10 gallons of manure.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:"Nobody really cares all that much."
Citation needed.
Anyway, I look forward to any more "a Star Wars Story" films, but episode IX might as well be Showgirls for how seriously I'll take it.
Okay, now I really want to see crazy Elizabeth Berkeley as a Sith Lord or something. *flips lunch tray*
Be fair, Showgirls is great to watch on mute.
Commander Cain wrote:I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
For IX I am trying to stay away from as many rumours and theories this time because they are all just ridiculous. I have faith in JJ Abrams to make a good movie , hopefully he figures out a good way to incorporate the huge cast as there are a lot of characters going to be involved.
Azreal13 wrote:
Commander Cain wrote: I actually rewatched VIII the other day for the first time since being disappointed with it in the theaters and I really enjoyed it! Everything just seemed so much better a second time round and all the issues I had with it seemed tiny and insignificant. I would recommend giving it another watch if you didn't like it the first time.
I had a similar reaction. I mean, there's still some really stupid gak in there, but I found that I enjoyed the better bits more and was irritated by the gak bits less.
This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".
3) Some kind of retcons to "fix" VIII. Don't get me wrong, I like VIII, but it subverted expectations just to subvert them. If things get a bit retconned to fit JJs original plans, it would make VIII more palatable for many people.
Rey being a "nobody" for example, can easily be a lie Snoke planted in Kylo's vision.
Not holding my breath, but I'd lose my mind if Rey turned out to be both a SKywalker (Luke's daughter) AND a Kenobi (Obi-wan's Granddaughter). Afterall, Obi-wan's had plenty of time to have a daughter that could have grown up and married Luke.
-
I'd lose my mind too and not in a good sense. Rey being revealed a nobody was GREAT character moment for her. "Secret special background" would only make her even more of a special snowflake and she sure doesn't need any more of that. When they had such a messianic character in the prequels it went over like a wet sock. Now she actually has a touch of "character who rises to occasion and beats the crap odds given at birth" swagger at her. Furthermore, Star Wars trope "everyone is related or somehow connected to other characters" got old already by RotJ, to say nothing about later movies and EU.
I dunno, I feel like there was an important line in the middle film of the trilogy, maybe something that turned the whole story on its head (for the protagonist at least). A truly epic line, destined to be repeated as a hallmark of the series for decades.
tneva82 wrote: Well will be going to see it more of out of duty to see how the trainwreck ends but without even Luke to entertain like in VIII not expecting even passable movie out of it.
Hamill is cast for 9, although presumably his parts would be limited to flashbacks and/or ghostly apparitions...
Well yeah the VIII made sure he isn't likely to have near as big role as he had in VIII and for me pretty much only scenes he appeared were worth watching. Of course it's possible he appears as force ghost all the time but then again...
He appeared in cast of VII as well. Role was rather tiny though ;-)
Backfire wrote: I'd lose my mind too and not in a good sense. Rey being revealed a nobody was GREAT character moment for her. "Secret special background" would only make her even more of a special snowflake and she sure doesn't need any more of that. When they had such a messianic character in the prequels it went over like a wet sock. Now she actually has a touch of "character who rises to occasion and beats the crap odds given at birth" swagger at her. Furthermore, Star Wars trope "everyone is related or somehow connected to other characters" got old already by RotJ, to say nothing about later movies and EU.
That’s a good point actually. I never really thought of it that way. If they hadn’t made her so OP and instead gave her a more realistic training curve, they’d have had a perfect set up there.
That’s the story of Star Wars isn’t it? Good ideas poorly executed.
This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".
IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.
This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".
IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.
Yes, I too cease to see any point in discussing something when everyone doesn't agree with me.
This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".
IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.
Yes, I too cease to see any point in discussing something when everyone doesn't agree with me.
Yeah odd that......
Perhaps if the OP had not been so dismissive of anyone who was not in love with the TLJ it might have helped.
Those who dare to disagree with the sainted professional critics often suffer abuse for daring to do so - they are normally described as idiots, racists, sexist, ill informed etc etc,
No one here has accused those few who liked the film of any such thing.
Lance845 wrote: Discussion implies an exchange of ideas. The sw threads all literal retreds of the same discussion from last year.
Well if some people are going to defend the TLJ to the death, then I don;t see why people are not allowed to express in contrast their specific critcism or how that will impact on future productions for good or ill.
Lance845 wrote: Discussion implies an exchange of ideas. The sw threads all literal retreds of the same discussion from last year.
Well if some people are going to defend the TLJ to the death, then I don;t see why people are not allowed to express in contrast their specific critcism or how that will impact on future productions for good or ill.
I didnt say not allowed. I said all the sw discusions are the same. Supporting how pointless it is.
Kilkrazy wrote: Alternatively, in terms of producing a spectacular space opera, simple ideas executed spectacularly.
Oh don't get me wrong, Star Wars is brilliant. I think that episodes 4 & 5 are two of the greatest movies ever made, and episode 6 plus Rogue One & Solo are excellent too. But even these all have their flaws within the plot. But I don't mind that. I drive an Alfa Romeo, a car riddled with design flaws. Yet I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know what I mean?
Back on point, I just can't imagine where they'll take the story next, purely because VIII derailed the narratives started by VII so much. And now that so much of it (Rey's parents, Snoke, The Knights Of Ren) apparently don't matter, I just feel like, why should I care what happens next then? Many bits of VIII felt like an end of a trilogy rather than a middle. Scuppered a lot of it imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?
I was hoping it would improve the second time around. That was my mistake.
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?
I wouldn't and I have't - I don't have the time to waste on such gak
We are in the same boat partner. I'll see a movie that people tell me is bad so I can see for myself. Never though have I watched a movie which I hated - twice.
Kilkrazy wrote: Alternatively, in terms of producing a spectacular space opera, simple ideas executed spectacularly.
Oh don't get me wrong, Star Wars is brilliant. I think that episodes 4 & 5 are two of the greatest movies ever made, and episode 6 plus Rogue One & Solo are excellent too. But even these all have their flaws within the plot. But I don't mind that. I drive an Alfa Romeo, a car riddled with design flaws. Yet I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know what I mean?
Back on point, I just can't imagine where they'll take the story next, purely because VIII derailed the narratives started by VII so much. And now that so much of it (Rey's parents, Snoke, The Knights Of Ren) apparently don't matter, I just feel like, why should I care what happens next then? Many bits of VIII felt like an end of a trilogy rather than a middle. Scuppered a lot of it imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?
I was hoping it would improve the second time around. That was my mistake.
Haha - fair enough. Lesson learned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: I thought it was okay and I haven't watched it a second time XD
If I'm going to watch a Star Wars movie over and over it's going to be Rogue One, or Empire Strikes back. I find they have the most replay value
For me it's RotJ - Nostalgia and was the first SW movie I saw. Really though even the prequels are worth re-watching. It's jsut Vll and Vlll I have no desire to watch again. R1 - seen it 3-4 times. Solo I've seen twice and I thought it was just an average movie.
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?
I usually give films I didn't like or was unsure about a second chance, seeing things in bad mood, tired, etc can impact ones opinion, admittedly this hasn't been the case with anything recent (BR2049 got close but that's a good film but so different from BR its a stretch to be tagged as a sequel)
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?
Because people I normally find to have similar tastes to mine in films kept telling me it was a good film that gets better on repeat viewings, and contrary to the common portrayal of People Who Didn't Care For TLJ I am actually capable of realising that a first impression isn't necessarily an accurate impression, so I gave it a fair shake. It was still guff(IMO), and I still found the same things bothersome/annoying/laughable, but it was still a valuable experience because now I know for certain not to trust the opinions of the aforementioned people about films ever ever again
I'm not a huge fan of JJ Abrams because at this point he's become pretty predictable, but for those who were disappointed with TLJ it should be a small comfort that Abrams is continuing the franchise rather than Rian Johnson. The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders, and it's not because he didn't try or want to do a good job, it's because even he had no idea what kind of movie he wanted to make. Is it a crime caper? A serious deconstruction of Star Wars? A comedy? If you watch making of footage it's pretty clear that not even he knew. Pretty hard to end up in port when the captain has no idea where the ship is going.
Backfire wrote: I'd lose my mind too and not in a good sense. Rey being revealed a nobody was GREAT character moment for her. "Secret special background" would only make her even more of a special snowflake and she sure doesn't need any more of that. When they had such a messianic character in the prequels it went over like a wet sock. Now she actually has a touch of "character who rises to occasion and beats the crap odds given at birth" swagger at her. Furthermore, Star Wars trope "everyone is related or somehow connected to other characters" got old already by RotJ, to say nothing about later movies and EU.
That’s a good point actually. I never really thought of it that way. If they hadn’t made her so OP and instead gave her a more realistic training curve, they’d have had a perfect set up there.
Lack of foreshadowing with her Force ability is the real problem. I don't think she is 'overpowered', much less 'Mary-Sue' in other respects, her abilities are roughly on par with Luke. She's skilled fighter (believable), skilled gearhead (also believable), decent pilot (slightly less so but borderline acceptable), can't shoot and is somewhat naive. But suddenly becoming very powerful Force user without any previous hints of abilities to that direction is simply bad writing. Luke needed 2 movies to become skilled with Force, Rey needed like 10 minutes. Even with Anakin, they had some buildup (his 'Jedi reflexes' which allowed him to compete in podracing).
They should have given her at least something to hint to that direction, like demonstration of Jedi prescience (dodges a blaster shot - Finn is all "How did you do that? -Did what?") or very least some kind of prophetic dreams.
Luciferian wrote: The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..
Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.
Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.
Luciferian wrote: The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..
Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.
Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.
Nah nah nah nah nah. You don't get to play the "preconceptions" card when the director has explicitly and repeatedly stated that their intent was to "subvert expectations", and that they believe if they don't piss off half the audience of a film they've not made a good film. People went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got a peach floating in absinthe served in a bowler hat with a wookie pelt draped over it, they are perfectly entitled to feel cheated. Also - "so many"? Is there some grand shift in opinion going on? Because that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see the rabidly pro-TLJ segment of the nerd media crowing about, and they don't appear to be.
I dunno, I feel like there was an important line in the middle film of the trilogy, maybe something that turned the whole story on its head (for the protagonist at least). A truly epic line, destined to be repeated as a hallmark of the series for decades.
Luciferian wrote: The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..
Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.
Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.
Funny becuase the vitirol directed at the people who dared disagree with the so called professional critics was part of the problem, being told that you are racist, sexist or similar just becuase you think a film is not very good is out of order.
And again you go for the "Ohh but superfans" - Actually some of us just went into it hoping for a bit of entertainment like Star Wars films used to be, for some of us they were never deep or a special life experience - just a bit of fun - but they killed stone dead with tedious plots and worse characters before a trip to magical casino world to release some slave horses
Instead we go bored by a lazy pathetic attempt at making a film, with no worth as entertainment and certaily nothing deeper - why would I waste another 3 hours of m life watching total gak like that?
It made plenty of money becuase the critics lied about it up front for whatever reason (pressure, lack of interest, bribery, incompetance) and also lots of people went to watch the new Star Wars film.
See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.
Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.
Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.
In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?
And so forth.
Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.
Nah nah nah nah nah. You don't get to play the "preconceptions" card when the director has explicitly and repeatedly stated that their intent was to "subvert expectations", and that they believe if they don't piss off half the audience of a film they've not made a good film.
Er... wouldn't that be exactly the time to play the preconceptions card...? On account of it being, as you say, the specific goal of the director?
People went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got a peach floating in absinthe served in a bowler hat with a wookie pelt draped over it, they are perfectly entitled to feel cheated.
Meh, if people got that, it's because they were over-analysing the whole thing. I went in expecting a Star Wars movie, and got something with space battles, lightsabers, amusing one-liners and a kicker soundtrack. Left happy.
Clearly, YMMV.
Also - "so many"? Is there some grand shift in opinion going on? Because that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see the rabidly pro-TLJ segment of the nerd media crowing about, and they don't appear to be.
Speaking of over-analysing... I wasn't making some grand statement based on statistics, I was mentioning a common theme that I've seen, on this forum and elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disliked it the first time and didn't like it any better the second... but I've also seen a lot of people saying they enjoyed it more the second time through.
I don't recall mentioning 'superfans'... If I did, it would have been to point out that I was one, and have been since I was about 5.
I never suggested that people didn't like it because they were superfans. I simply suggested that some people were put off by it not being what they expected... which Yodhrin subsequently pointed out was exactly what the director intended, so I'm not sure what there is to take exception with in that statement.
Luciferian wrote: I'm not a huge fan of JJ Abrams because at this point he's become pretty predictable, but for those who were disappointed with TLJ it should be a small comfort that Abrams is continuing the franchise rather than Rian Johnson. The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders, and it's not because he didn't try or want to do a good job, it's because even he had no idea what kind of movie he wanted to make. Is it a crime caper? A serious deconstruction of Star Wars? A comedy? If you watch making of footage it's pretty clear that not even he knew. Pretty hard to end up in port when the captain has no idea where the ship is going.
I would honestly prefer Rian Johnson to direct IX rather than Abrams. I'd rather see discuss an ambitious catastrophe than a low-fruit embarrassment.
Backfire wrote: [She had Force powers because sometimes young people living in desert planets are strong in Force. You see, it's like poetry, it rhymes...
The trick being, Luke was quite strong in the Force, yet STILL needed to be trained by Yoda before he could do the stuff Rey does even in the FIRST movie. Little Anakin was VERY strong in the force, and again needed years of training to USE that strength in a practical way.
Rey just downloads the skill from the matrix in five seconds whenever she needs it, apparently. I guess the franchises are connected somehow. Who knew?
Luciferian wrote: The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..
Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.
Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.
I think you're both right and wrong. People were very upset it wasn't the movie they were expecting....because it wasn't really a Star Wars movie. The best analogy I can think of is TLJ is to Star Wars as Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is to Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Many fans hated it initially for being untrue to Heinlein SST, especially since it was a criticism of the earlier work, but eventually most came around after the shock or could compartmentalize and enjoy VSST for the different thing that it is. However, no one can realistically point to the two works and reconcile them into a coherent unity. It would be madness to try. Unless, of course, you've got $4 billion in sunken costs.
Lance845 wrote: See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.
Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.
Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.
In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?
And so forth.
Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.
Yeah lets - you didn't listen or care the first time - you didn't this time.
IMO its not fun, clever, subversive or any of the other crap made up about it - its lazy, badly writen, terribly paced, overlong, boring, and full of awfully portrayed characters - I cetaintly don't have a hidden motive, I don't consider Star Wars a sacred text or similar, I did like the Force Awakens - nothing special but hey we still have the same boring arguments put forward by people to explain why they didn;t like a film becuase it can't be the films fault it must be the viewers.
"Oh but you just went expecting X Y Z" And Mr Rian Johnson is such a clever clever man that he did something different," "Look all these critics said so - no one can argue with them!"
Nope I went in to the cinema to be entertained, I spent my money and got gak for it, it was a complete waste of my time and money and then I get told
"Nah you probably didn'tt understand it" or "what is the hidden reason that you feel you have to say these horrible things about such a special snowflake of a film. What is wrong with you?."
Same old crap dished out about it.
I don't care if people like it or dislike it - what makes me angry is people telling ME what I "really" mean or why I "really" don't like something. We all like different things for different reasons.
I think you're both right and wrong. People were very upset it wasn't the movie they were expecting....because it wasn't really a Star Wars movie. .
Compared to what?
Episodes 4, 5 and 6 were all very different movies from each other. The prequels were different again. Rogue 1 felt very similar to Empire, while Solo, for me, felt much more like one of the Prequels (but with better dialogue). Likewise, TFA, for me, felt much like a Prequel movie, while TLJ felt a lot like Empire. I would expect with Abrams back at the helm that we'll be back to Prequel tone for Ep9.
I certainly get what you're saying - for me as a kid, RotJ never felt quite like it belonged with the other two. But I don't see that with TLJ, and I don't really have the same problem I used to have with RotJ, maybe because since RotJ we've had the prequels, TFA and the Story spinoffs, several TV series, and more books than you can poke a stick at, all with very different focus, tone, pacing and depth. So these days, 'Star Wars' covers an awful lot of ground for me. If somebody mentions 'the Force' somewhere in there, that's probably enough to tie it in.
Compared to the OT, or each person's personal Star Wars. I have a friend who only recognizes two Star Wars films, and he certainly doesn't call Star Wars "A New Hope". Some people have a more inclusive view of Star Wars and some far less. Pretty much everyone has a line where a film would no longer feel like part of Star Wars. I passed mine with the first Prequel, and only Rogue One and Solo have really come close to recapturing the feeling of Star Wars for me. (Well, Solo was more like West End Star Wars RPG: the movie.)
I'm on the opposite side of the Star Wars issue in that I don't understand how people enjoyed TFA, thought it felt authentic, wanted more just like it, or expected the next installment to be any good in the first place. But I understand that they did and were disappointed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thematically, and in terms of plot elements and macguffin so, TLJ seemed to trip over a lot of people's No Star Wars threshold.
Lance845 wrote: See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.
Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.
Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.
In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?
And so forth.
Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.
Yeah lets - you didn't listen or care the first time - you didn't this time.
IMO its not fun, clever, subversive or any of the other crap made up about it - its lazy, badly writen, terribly paced, overlong, boring, and full of awfully portrayed characters - I cetaintly don't have a hidden motive, I don't consider Star Wars a sacred text or similar, I did like the Force Awakens - nothing special but hey we still have the same boring arguments put forward by people to explain why they didn;t like a film becuase it can't be the films fault it must be the viewers.
"Oh but you just went expecting X Y Z" And Mr Rian Johnson is such a clever clever man that he did something different," "Look all these critics said so - no one can argue with them!"
Nope I went in to the cinema to be entertained, I spent my money and got gak for it, it was a complete waste of my time and money and then I get told
"Nah you probably didn'tt understand it" or "what is the hidden reason that you feel you have to say these horrible things about such a special snowflake of a film. What is wrong with you?."
Same old crap dished out about it.
I don't care if people like it or dislike it - what makes me angry is people telling ME what I "really" mean or why I "really" don't like something. We all like different things for different reasons.
I am looking but can't seem to find any example of someone telling you how you feel or why you feel it. I just see a lot of you lumping yourself in with some disenfranchised group of people who disliked a movie and apparently get gak for it. But nobody screams more about it then you and nobody is lumping you in with any group but yourself.
The entire (presumably paid for) coverage of the film after release on social media/geek media sites were making the claims Morden references which have since been parroted in online arguments.
It was also said quite a bit in the former topics on this discussion as well. There were a few that really were into telling people how they were "really feeling" and "really thinking"
Luciferian wrote: I'm not a huge fan of JJ Abrams because at this point he's become pretty predictable, but for those who were disappointed with TLJ it should be a small comfort that Abrams is continuing the franchise rather than Rian Johnson. The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders, and it's not because he didn't try or want to do a good job, it's because even he had no idea what kind of movie he wanted to make. Is it a crime caper? A serious deconstruction of Star Wars? A comedy? If you watch making of footage it's pretty clear that not even he knew. Pretty hard to end up in port when the captain has no idea where the ship is going.
How much direct input director has regarding the script? Does he have much input on plot line and lines?
Nah nah nah nah nah. You don't get to play the "preconceptions" card when the director has explicitly and repeatedly stated that their intent was to "subvert expectations", and that they believe if they don't piss off half the audience of a film they've not made a good film.
Er... wouldn't that be exactly the time to play the preconceptions card...? On account of it being, as you say, the specific goal of the director?
Well, no, because you're deploying it to make people seem less reasonable for being disappointed by what they saw, when the reality is the director's - entirely uncommunicated prior to release - intent was to disappoint them. If someone went in with a detailed and specific theory about Snoke hashed out of a period of years in the darkest corners of Reddit, didn't get exactly that, and proceeded to trash the movie then sure, their preconceptions are the problem. If someone went in with a general expectation, based on nothing more than prior experience of the IP's cinematic outings, that the film and characters would hit certain beats as part of a plot with a certain level of coherence and tonal consistency, and instead got the product of a pretentious twonkish artiste who's on record as having a hipsterish attitude towards mass market entertainment that very much comes through in said product, the audience is not the problem in that scenario.
People went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got a peach floating in absinthe served in a bowler hat with a wookie pelt draped over it, they are perfectly entitled to feel cheated.
Meh, if people got that, it's because they were over-analysing the whole thing. I went in expecting a Star Wars movie, and got something with space battles, lightsabers, amusing one-liners and a kicker soundtrack. Left happy.
Clearly, YMMV.
Clearly, since I went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got something else entirely wrapped in a superficial layer of vaguely Star Warsy Lookin' stuff. But I won't go so far as to suggest that people who were satisfied with that are just easily pleased.
Also - "so many"? Is there some grand shift in opinion going on? Because that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see the rabidly pro-TLJ segment of the nerd media crowing about, and they don't appear to be.
Speaking of over-analysing... I wasn't making some grand statement based on statistics, I was mentioning a common theme that I've seen, on this forum and elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disliked it the first time and didn't like it any better the second... but I've also seen a lot of people saying they enjoyed it more the second time through.
Again, YMMV.
Ah, so just a personal opinion dressed up as something more. If we're doing anecdotes, personally I've seen far more people catching Solo on home release saying they enjoyed it afterall(despite not having bothered with it in the cinema) than I have people recanting unfavourable views of TLJ.
EDIT: Oh, and as an aside - I do love how mutable TLJ is. Criticise the film for being shlocky well beyond the norm for Star Wars and someone will be right along to hold forth at length on how cerebral and avant garde and deconstructionist it is. Criticise the tonal inconsistency, plot holes, or other technical aspects, and someone will pop up to inform you you're "over analysing". And of course you can never win, because if you ever engage with either defence long enough for it to begin unravelling, you magically transform into a crypto-bigot motivated by some deep seated atavistic hatred of somebody or something.
Lance845 wrote: See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.
Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.
Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.
In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?
And so forth.
Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.
Yeah lets - you didn't listen or care the first time - you didn't this time.
IMO its not fun, clever, subversive or any of the other crap made up about it - its lazy, badly writen, terribly paced, overlong, boring, and full of awfully portrayed characters - I cetaintly don't have a hidden motive, I don't consider Star Wars a sacred text or similar, I did like the Force Awakens - nothing special but hey we still have the same boring arguments put forward by people to explain why they didn;t like a film becuase it can't be the films fault it must be the viewers.
"Oh but you just went expecting X Y Z" And Mr Rian Johnson is such a clever clever man that he did something different," "Look all these critics said so - no one can argue with them!"
Nope I went in to the cinema to be entertained, I spent my money and got gak for it, it was a complete waste of my time and money and then I get told
"Nah you probably didn'tt understand it" or "what is the hidden reason that you feel you have to say these horrible things about such a special snowflake of a film. What is wrong with you?."
Same old crap dished out about it.
I don't care if people like it or dislike it - what makes me angry is people telling ME what I "really" mean or why I "really" don't like something. We all like different things for different reasons.
I am looking but can't seem to find any example of someone telling you how you feel or why you feel it. I just see a lot of you lumping yourself in with some disenfranchised group of people who disliked a movie and apparently get gak for it. But nobody screams more about it then you and nobody is lumping you in with any group but yourself.
Maybe just maybe looking at people saying its becuase of the viewers precoceptions and nothing to do with the film .
Like you, some people prefer to attack the viewer rather than defend the film. Sad really but I guess you have to get your kicks somehow
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It was also said quite a bit in the former topics on this discussion as well. There were a few that really were into telling people how they were "really feeling" and "really thinking"
Guess we all must be imagining and should just agree with whatever Lance says. We are terrible people.
EDIT: Oh, and as an aside - I do love how mutable TLJ is. Criticise the film for being shlocky well beyond the norm for Star Wars and someone will be right along to hold forth at length on how cerebral and avant garde and deconstructionist it is. Criticise the tonal inconsistency, plot holes, or other technical aspects, and someone will pop up to inform you you're "over analysing". And of course you can never win, because if you ever engage with either defence long enough for it to begin unravelling, you magically transform into a crypto-bigot motivated by some deep seated atavistic hatred of somebody or something.
I am not attacking you. Nobody in here has been attacking anyone. You just seem to be in a constant state of defensiveness over this dumb movie so anything anyone says becomes an attack. I didn't call you or anyone else terrible. stop catastrophising
Lance845 wrote: I am not attacking you. Nobody in here has been attacking anyone. You just seem to be in a constant state of defensiveness over this dumb movie so anything anyone says becomes an attack. I didn't call you or anyone else terrible. stop catastrophising
How dare you say what everyone who has ever been in one of the dozen or so by now TLJ threads has been quietly thinking. Shame on you!
We should have Rian Johnson do the next Star Wars, but he should simply re-cast and modify the movie Brick and film it as the next episode of the trilogy.
Lance845 wrote: I am not attacking you. Nobody in here has been attacking anyone. You just seem to be in a constant state of defensiveness over this dumb movie so anything anyone says becomes an attack. I didn't call you or anyone else terrible. stop catastrophising
Funny how I am not the only one who talked about the shield around The Last Jedi - maybe you are wrong - ever consider that - doubt it.
How dare you say what everyone who has ever been in one of the dozen or so by now TLJ threads has been quietly thinking. Shame on you!
Yeah wierd how other people are saying the same thing as I did - maybe we have a point.
Maybe people should realise that when I attack that gak FILM I am not attacking those people who for whatever reason like it.
I am not talking about you disliking the film. I am talking about YOU lumping YOURSELF into a group of people who are being called racist and sexist and then lashing out at all the people who say racism and sexism happened because you think its unfair to be called that for disliking the film.
There is no universal conspiracy where there are only 2 sides. Those who dislike the movie and are paragons of virtue and those who liked it and sink to dehumanizing the other side through name calling and dismissive patronizing.
That doesnt exist.
Some people who disliked the movie are scum racist sexists. And some who like the movie are patronizing snobish douches. And most people have their own opinions and dont give a feth what anyone else thinks.
I am not lumping you in with racists and sexists. I AM thinking your pretty fething petty at this point for carrying this crazy torch for this long. For all your hate of being patronized to and being lumped in with other douches you sure do love to patronize and lump yourself. But that has nothing to do with sides in a battle over opinions about a movie. It just has to do with you and your words you cant stop spewing in every sw thread.
Lance845 wrote: I am not talking about you disliking the film. I am talking about YOU lumping YOURSELF into a group of people who are being called racist and sexist and then lashing out at all the people who say racism and sexism happened because you think its unfair to be called that for disliking the film.
There is no universal conspiracy where there are only 2 sides. Those who dislike the movie and are paragons of virtue and those who liked it and sink to dehumanizing the other side through name calling and dismissive patronizing.
That doesnt exist.
Some people who disliked the movie are scum racist sexists. And some who like the movie are patronizing snobish douches. And most people have their own opinions and dont give a feth what anyone else thinks.
I am not lumping you in with racists and sexists. I AM thinking your pretty fething petty at this point for carrying this crazy torch for this long. For all your hate of being patronized to and being lumped in with other douches you sure do love to patronize and lump yourself. But that has nothing to do with sides in a battle over opinions about a movie. It just has to do with you and your words you cant stop spewing in every sw thread.
Calm down you do youself an injury.
Ah back to the insults - well played , well played - perhaps you should go back to telling me "what I really mean"
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah wierd how other people are saying the same thing as I did - maybe we have a point.
You (singular you, as in you) also might have a raging victim complex and it gets old watching it get waved and thrown around wildly at people who are doing none of the things you complain about.
Maybe people should realise that when I attack that gak FILM I am not attacking those people who for whatever reason like it.
I think you're both right and wrong. People were very upset it wasn't the movie they were expecting....because it wasn't really a Star Wars movie. .
Compared to what?
Episodes 4, 5 and 6 were all very different movies from each other. The prequels were different again. Rogue 1 felt very similar to Empire, while Solo, for me, felt much more like one of the Prequels (but with better dialogue). Likewise, TFA, for me, felt much like a Prequel movie, while TLJ felt a lot like Empire. I would expect with Abrams back at the helm that we'll be back to Prequel tone for Ep9.
I certainly get what you're saying - for me as a kid, RotJ never felt quite like it belonged with the other two. But I don't see that with TLJ, and I don't really have the same problem I used to have with RotJ, maybe because since RotJ we've had the prequels, TFA and the Story spinoffs, several TV series, and more books than you can poke a stick at, all with very different focus, tone, pacing and depth. So these days, 'Star Wars' covers an awful lot of ground for me. If somebody mentions 'the Force' somewhere in there, that's probably enough to tie it in.
I'm not in complete lockstep with you here, but I think we're strolling in the same direction.
I think there's an underlying...silliness?...to the prequels and Solo. They obviously aren't slapstick, but there's something "bubblegum" about the tone. Even when they try to go dark and set the stakes high like in ROTS, it somehow lacks the emotional heft that it should have. In contrast, I think TESB, R1, and TLJ have an underlying emotional edge or bite to them, even as they're different movies.
I agree with you 100% that ROTJ doesn't fit well with ANH or TESB. Time revealed it to be a preview of the prequels. I can remember being a young teen walking out of the theater and feeling disappointed somehow. So I suppose I can understand the feeling some had with TLJ. No matter how much anyone might claim otherwise, the notion of 'expectations' seem to a central and unavoidable component of the whole TLJ debate.
Perhaps the SW franchise has gotten so expansive and diverse that it's becoming hard to please a majority of the fans. Getting back on topic, I fully expect JJ to be conservative with IX and give us something much closer to TFA. Sure, it'll be another whipsaw, but Disney will want people back in the fold. And taking some risks like they did with TLJ was contrary to Disney's nature in the first place.
I think there's an underlying...silliness?...to the prequels and Solo. They obviously aren't slapstick, but there's something "bubblegum" about the tone. Even when they try to go dark and set the stakes high like in ROTS, it somehow lacks the emotional heft that it should have. In contrast, I think TESB, R1, and TLJ have an underlying emotional edge or bite to them, even as they're different movies.
The prequels were action figure marketing campaigns aimed directly at children. TFA was a rehash of old material with extra lens flare (as Abrams is wont to do). Even the original trilogy was a series of happy accidents and people saving Lucas from himself. If I'm being honest I grew disenchanted by the franchise long ago and never expected much from the new trilogy anyway, but I still think that TLJ is a pretty bad movie all on its own.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah wierd how other people are saying the same thing as I did - maybe we have a point.
You (singular you, as in you) also might have a raging victim complex and it gets old watching it get waved and thrown around wildly at people who are doing none of the things you complain about.
Maybe people should realise that when I attack that gak FILM I am not attacking those people who for whatever reason like it.
Like this.
Hmm Victim complex - well must be being called petty, self patronzing etc etc. Gets quite boring reading that sort of crap too.
" And taking some risks like they did with TLJ was contrary to Disney's nature in the first place."
I think you are confusing making garbage plots and poor writing with taking risks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - heres a tip - If you don't like RotJ. You probably don't actually like star-wars. RotJ is the friggen climax of the story. LOL.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah wierd how other people are saying the same thing as I did - maybe we have a point.
You (singular you, as in you) also might have a raging victim complex and it gets old watching it get waved and thrown around wildly at people who are doing none of the things you complain about.
Maybe people should realise that when I attack that gak FILM I am not attacking those people who for whatever reason like it.
Like this.
Hmm Victim complex - well must be being called petty, self patronzing etc etc. Gets quite boring reading that sort of crap too.
Still avoids talking about the subject I guess.
Hilarious coming from someone who dodged every point made so they could play the victim again.
And with that im done. I restate my original point. Pointless. Because this again.
It gets quite boring watching you beat this dead horse too, especially since its only purpose seems to be derailing threads by taking anyone who doesn't agree with you and accusing them of insulting you for disagree.
Also - heres a tip - If you don't like RotJ. You probably don't actually like star-wars. RotJ is the friggen climax of the story. LOL.
What an odd thing to say. Being the 'climax' of the story doesn't make it automatically good, or any less tonally different to the two preceding movies.
I grew up with Star Wars. As a kid, I could recite the dialogue from Empire verbatim. But RotJ always just felt slightly off, and I largely only liked it because it was Star Wars, without particularly enjoying watching it. I don't mind it as much now, but even so if I'm just grabbing a Star Wars DVD to watch, rather than watching them in order, it's the last one I reach for.
