I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
r/threadkillers.
Wait this isn't Reddit... But still- there's your answer right there folks. Apparently 10,000 years of history, which is greater than recorded human history so far on a galactic scale was "stale and boring" for some people. You've made this bed, now you've gotta lie in it.
Previous plot/timeline advancements didn't result in the galaxy getting split in two, the birth of new gods, the return of primarchs etc. ect. Nor did/do they need to.
The timeline advanced in fits and starts for years - and moved well into M42 - before any of the Gathering Storm stuff happened.
Timeline advancement doesn't automatically equate to massive upheavals.
The issue is the advancements GW make are ridiculous. New better Marine armies popping up from nowhere with hoards of gear, Primarchs popping back up, the Galaxy being split in half, odd death cult Eldar, the Imperium is split in two but also doesn't seem to change much and it just goes on.
Timeline advances are fine if you aren't dumb about it. But GW aren't capable of doing them well. Not to mention 5000 years of empty story space they could use.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?
That at least one of them still exists in the present.
More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?
That at least one of them still exists in the present.
Sure. But a few suvivng a galactic spanning war dosent really seems that far-fetched to me.
Having Cadia fall is far better than Cadia being a second away from falling indefinitely, in my opinion. Having the Eldar actually advance and have some kind of shaking up of their goals and identity was refreshing to me. The rift creates good and organic reasons for Vigilus existing, and also actually acts as concrete evidence of Chaos as a threat (again, Cadia standing indefinitely didn't look good for Chaos). I have nothing wrong with a Man of Iron showing up. Abnett did it in one of the first BL books, and people haven't seemed to care that much. It's a single Man of Iron, a whole army would be surprising, but a single one is hardly a massive change.
There's only so far you can set everything in M.41 and still attempt to make changes. Maybe going back to something like M35 or something would have been just as fine, but that's not too far different to things like the Horus Heresy and War of the Beast, and a lot of the people who complain about the M42 stuff ALSO complain about those areas too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamwulf wrote: More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.
I welcome the changes and hope it will continue.
Agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: The issue is the advancements GW make are ridiculous. New better Marine armies popping up from nowhere with hoards of gear, Primarchs popping back up, the Galaxy being split in half, odd death cult Eldar,
I don't really have an issue with that. They make sense, but some of them could have had more build-up (Cawl mostly - if he'd been established for longer, he would be just fine IMO)
the Imperium is split in two but also doesn't seem to change much and it just goes on.
Isn't that the most Imperial things I've heard of?
Also, things have changed, just mostly for those beyond the Rift.
Timeline advances are fine if you aren't dumb about it. But GW aren't capable of doing them well. Not to mention 5000 years of empty story space they could use.
I agree that the empty space could have been used, but seeing as how when the War of the Beast and 30k started getting fleshed out more, we also had people complaining (and a good portion of them are people who also oppose the setting being advanced), it seems more like people just had an issue with things other than M41 being fleshed out.
Advancing the story doesn't render anyone's personal armies irrelevant. Changing the unknown has the risk of invalidating certain people's "Your Dudes" - such as someone with an Imperial Fist army with history dating back to the Horus Heresy now having to rewrite their army's lore because the IF all died out in M32.
I dig the advancement, I do think some of it is bad; however just the fact stuff is happening is so refreshing. Big things don't have to happen, but having new names potentially enter the universe is great.
Grimtuff wrote: at least one of them still exists in the present.
Meh, in the very first Gaunt's Ghost novel, they stumble upon a Men of Iron factory corrupted by the power of Chaos. Gaunt duel one such machine and destroys it. While the navy did blew up the factory, it wouldn't have been that surprising for a few models to survive the blast. I wouldn't call that a "big change".
On the subject of setting changes, advancing the story line was bound to radically change the setting of 40K. The battle of Armageddon, the largest Ork invasion since the War of the Beast started two years prior and was yet to be resolved despite Ghazkull departure to get reinforcement. The 13th Black Crusade of Abbadon, his master plan, was impeding/just began. the war or Octarius was at its height and whoever would win would become a menace like no other. Necros were awakening left and right, more Tyranid fleets were comming and a tendril of Leviathan was heading toward Terra and another attacked Baal and its sector. If you move the setting forward of let's say a century, massive changes were inevitable.
They don't really make good writing though. They literally said oh here's an army of Marines+1 for everyone. One God gets all the Eldar love and others get nothing. The Rift doesn't change much, the faraway governments who aren't that helpful are the same.
They introduced a lot of dramatic things that aren't massively contradictory to what came before but they also don't make sense and feel shoehorned in. Like if Game of Thrones suddenly had an army of Dragons appear from a previously unknown country and kill the white walkers and take over everything. Nothing makes it impossible but it's still awful.
Tamwulf wrote: More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.
Stuff and nonsense. Off the top of my head:
Craftworld Eldar- Aspects and Paths (and basically any real sense of eldar culture and history)
Dark Eldar & Comorroragh
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids (and genestealers- random alien from some moon changed to a harbinger/targeting organism)
Even basic marine fluff changed- they started life as drugged out, indoctrinated criminals. Space Wolves were presented as a standard chapter in RT with all sorts of details embedded in the map of their fortress-monastery (which was on a completely different planet)
Chaos and warp threats were fleshed out and taken in a completely different direction (when was the last time they even mentioned Vampires? [that weren't Blood Angels]). The Big Four weren't in RT itself.
Slann were effectively written out and replaced with the generic 'Old Ones'
Even ork klans happened after 1987 (Waargh the Orks was published in 1990, Ere We Go and Freebooters followed that fluff book, and that kicked off Da Lost Race [brainboyz] and all the lore that followed)
The list of things that changed lore-wise from 1987 to 2016 is absurdly long.
Tamwulf wrote: More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.
Stuff and nonsense. Off the top of my head:
Craftworld Eldar- Aspects and Paths (and basically any real sense of eldar culture and history)
Dark Eldar & Comorroragh
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids (and genestealers- random alien from some moon changed to a harbinger/targeting organism)
Even basic marine fluff changed- they started life as drugged out, indoctrinated criminals. Space Wolves were presented as a standard chapter in RT with all sorts of details embedded in the map of their fortress-monastery (which was on a completely different planet)
Chaos and warp threats were fleshed out and taken in a completely different direction (when was the last time they even mentioned Vampires? [that weren't Blood Angels]). The Big Four weren't in RT itself.
Slann were effectively written out and replaced with the generic 'Old Ones'
Even ork klans happened after 1987 (Waargh the Orks was published in 1990, Ere We Go and Freebooters followed that fluff book, and that kicked off Da Lost Race [brainboyz] and all the lore that followed)
The list of things that changed lore-wise from 1987 to 2016 is absurdly long.
What they are doing with the 40k setting is much better than the abomination that is the horus heresey series from BL. That’s ruining the history of the setting. At least moving the story forward they can introduce new stuff without having to explain where’s it’s been for the last 10000 years.
That series has changed more about the setting than the 8th story line has. Bring in the new stuff. So far it’s all great. Models are amazing and the “lore” or fluff as it should be called is fine. Can’t wait to see more behind the rift stuff. It’s done wonders for the setting of our narrative games. Opened up new possibilities and given a bit of the rogue trader style lawlessness back into it.
I think they have already damaged the setting to a significant degree. The only GW games that haven't had their lore crapped on is basically blood bowl and necromunda. Necromunda is lucky cause its isolated to that planet.
Imo40k was meant to be a setting and backdrop for games and models not an advancing story. Some of the new lore is just comical.
Lord Damocles wrote: Previous plot/timeline advancements didn't result in the galaxy getting split in two, the birth of new gods, the return of primarchs etc. ect. Nor did/do they need to.
The timeline advanced in fits and starts for years - and moved well into M42 - before any of the Gathering Storm stuff happened.
Timeline advancement doesn't automatically equate to massive upheavals.
Those sound like my old points from Warseer 10 years ago.
You missed one:
Not every faction has a 10k history of activity to play with. These include Tau, Tyranids, and to some degree Necrons. The Tau and Tyranids only appeared on the scene recently, and the Necrons were mostly inactive before. Even if by some plot handwaving, an advance Tyranid force or a lone Necron dynasty waking were shoehorned into the past, there would need to be equal handwaving to justify why they haven't accomplished anything or went back to sleep/dormancy again.
The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.
And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...
Andersp90 wrote: The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.
And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...
Andersp90 wrote: The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.
And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...
Can you spoil me what happened in resumé?
Here you go:
Spoiler:
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
I have nothing wrong with a Man of Iron showing up.
Or even an Old One. What's the point of having background lore if it just stays in the background? Mind you, I'd expect any Old Ones to have fled the galaxy millions of years gone and never looked back, as they could rebuild somewhere where the warp wasn't completely fethed up. But the Necrons might have an Old One or two locked up in a stasis vault.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Audustum wrote: I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
I don't think the Emperor was ever described as anything else but a tyrant (sometime in sheep's clothing) and an idealist. I don't think he ever loved anything beside his vision of mankind. I don't see him as a good person let alone a good father. He plays favorite with his kids all the time. He leaves them without reasons, lie to them all the time, in other words a classical deadbeat dad.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I think more Imperium VS Imperium conflicts should be a thing... Hopefully the new Sisters or a returning Primarch will stir things up on that front.
Did anyone else notice on the trailer for the new campaign book, it looked like AM vs Mechanicus fighting eachother?
Do you mean tensions or outright war? There are definitely some good plot hooks for political drama between the main powers of the Imperium but it'd be tricky to take it all the way to shooting each other without being unsatisfying.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.
Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
Spoiler:
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
Then you were either not reading DakkaDakka, weren't paying attention, or have a very bad memory.
Don't take that the wrong way, I promise I am not trying to wind you up, but there were lots of people saying everything was too stagnant and it was frustrating and/or dumb to be constantly stuck in the same status quo. I was not necessarily one of them, but I fully understood their point of view, and they were numerous.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.
Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models
Except that these things didn't happen in two years. The fall of cadia was built up since at least the Black Legion supplement in 6th edition where we learned that the 4th black crusade was already directed against the Necron defences of Cadia. The 12th black crusade gathered the Blackstone fortresses to destroy Cadia, which was part of the Lore since Battlefleet Gothic.
I admit I would have liked the Primaris Marines to not appear out of nothing - after all Fabius Bile created Primaris Marines before it was cool, just not that stable.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.
Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models
Except that these things didn't happen in two years. The fall of cadia was built up since at least the Black Legion supplement in 6th edition where we learned that the 4th black crusade was already directed against the Necron defences of Cadia. The 12th black crusade gathered the Blackstone fortresses to destroy Cadia, which was part of the Lore since Battlefleet Gothic.
I admit I would have liked the Primaris Marines to not appear out of nothing - after all Fabius Bile created Primaris Marines before it was cool, just not that stable.
There was always going to be a 13th black crusade against the cadian gate so yeah it wasn't developed, it was the only logical start off for an advancement in the lore. The 13th crusade has been a permanent fixture but thats not my gripe, I like the fall of cadia lore wise its all the other stuff along with that, none of which was developed, it came straight bang out of nowhere and was bundled together. I mean right when Chaos actually became proper nemesis' rather than scooby doo villains, bam Primaris and Guilliman come back and the Eldar get a fancy new god, its all too convenient.
Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.
Grimtuff wrote: Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.
Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.
Grimtuff wrote: Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.
Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.
Grimtuff wrote: Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.
Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.
Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models
I said COMPARED to Centurions and similar BS it was Inspired and it was.
There have been numerous posts showing how mnay changes (good and bad) that have occurred over the decades that you seem to have missed or hare ignoring.
Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.
Andykp wrote: Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.
I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.
Andykp wrote: Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.
I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.
Well sell ten good books when fifty plus cruddy ones will do the job!
I was all for advancing the setting, but I don't think it's been handled well. Splitting the galaxy is good, Cadia falling was necessary and I support bringing back Guilliman too, but primaris marines really feel like a mistake. Simply phasing out the smaller existing marine models would have been fine.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose. 2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start. Master of Mankind, like the rest of the Horus Heresy, is nothing more than literal hack work pumped out to meet deadlines and has as much claim to being quality literature as a comic book. You can't have a tragedy with constant, needless twists serving purely to string things along longer that undermine the entire point of tragedy itself. If the Emperor is an emotionless robot the Horus Heresy itself is worthless because the story lacks any value if there is no personal connection between him and the Primarchs that prevents him from outright killing them. It also calls into question of the Emperor as, if he did not love his sons, there is no reason to leave half of them alive when they are drooling incompetent lunatics (at least as presented in the Horus Heresy) that shouldn't be let anywhere near the Legions.
Of all the lore changes, the worst has been the Horus Heresy as it's a subject that should have only been executed by the most carefully planned and highest quality control ever shown by GW. And done by the smallest team of authors as possible to ensure consistent character arcs instead of infuriating "personal takes" that result in borderline bipolar personalities for characters as they change authors. As-is, it butchers the vestiges of good writing there was with the old Horus Heresy mythos while replacing it with something that doesn't even make coherent sense. It then throws in random twists to keep you reading and prevent you from realizing you are paying through the nose for hundreds of pages of mindless bolter fire that is little different from the previous book which mostly consisted of mindless bolter fire.
Snake Tortoise wrote: I was all for advancing the setting, but I don't think it's been handled well. Splitting the galaxy is good, Cadia falling was necessary and I support bringing back Guilliman too, but primaris marines really feel like a mistake. Simply phasing out the smaller existing marine models would have been fine.
There would have been riots if they got rid of tacticals for intercessors, even if they said "you can still use your tactical models, but we are switching over to the true scale marines". They are doing it slowly instead of all at once, there will be no more old scale marines produced, and im betting the next codex will be purely primaris stuff once the line has bulked up big enough.
In my opinion, the Horus Heresy books were not the tragedy of Horus, his brothers and the Emperor. It was the tragedy of Loken and his friends. The Primarchs were only accessories to the real tragedy, that of a bunch of Space Marines and humans who lose their friends, their heroes and their hope of a bright future.
Andykp wrote: Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.
I haven't said anything about the HH. I have a lot of problems about the HH, like how there is no direction, that writers can write whatever they want, I even went on a rant about the ruinstorm, so can you not make strawman arguments.
Andykp wrote: Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.
I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.
Agreed. I think if you keep to the main story arc, theyre mostly fairly decent reads. I avoid the compilations of short stories usually, and focus on the main story elements.
40k. It's kind of all or nothing when you want to advance it.
Stuff has been retconned since the get-go. If you've got access to a copy of Rogue Trader, have a read through. Little of it has survived to the present day intact.
And when the background was originally being developed (over a number of years), it was all very 'two minutes to midnight', with the balance of power being a very fine thing. It's hard to deal a dolorous background blow to one faction, without letting the others run rampant in the power vacuum.
The Rift achieves advancement for all quite nicely. Because it's threat to every faction. For Chaos, they've got battle mad Orks making straight for it to find The Best Fights. For The Imperium, it's split their Turf in two. For the Eldar? Who knows what it's done to The WebWay. Nids? No actual biomass, and no way around it. Necrons? Job of waking and uniting the Tomb Worlds just got a lot, lot harder.
And remember, we're already a couple of hundred years into Guilliman's Ressurection. Whilst I feel they could've worked with that a bit better on the clarity front, it's still a significant period of time.
Because otherwise it becomes about everyone fighting That One Thing. That's a difficult position to pull back from.
You can shift the balance in such a way that everyone remains challenged, and nobody has a free run at things. And that's what they've gone for in my opinion.
Stuff has been retconned since the get-go. If you've got access to a copy of Rogue Trader, have a read through. Little of it has survived to the present day intact.
And when the background was originally being developed (over a number of years), it was all very 'two minutes to midnight', with the balance of power being a very fine thing. It's hard to deal a dolorous background blow to one faction, without letting the others run rampant in the power vacuum.
The Rift achieves advancement for all quite nicely. Because it's threat to every faction. For Chaos, they've got battle mad Orks making straight for it to find The Best Fights. For The Imperium, it's split their Turf in two. For the Eldar? Who knows what it's done to The WebWay. Nids? No actual biomass, and no way around it. Necrons? Job of waking and uniting the Tomb Worlds just got a lot, lot harder.
And remember, we're already a couple of hundred years into Guilliman's Ressurection. Whilst I feel they could've worked with that a bit better on the clarity front, it's still a significant period of time.
Its not just the amount, its the amount in such a small period of time and wanting them to lay ground work and not be lazy writers, I mean the amount of ex-machinas in the dark Imperium is ridiculous, most of which are all tied together. I mean anyone that says the new lore was well thought out and written are out of their minds.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Be fair dude. You're entitled not to like it, but to suggest it's inherently awful isn't exactly true.
Here, we've seen a build up over two or three years, culminating in a galactic calamity which affects all the races.
That's not a small period of time at all.
not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because otherwise it becomes about everyone fighting That One Thing. That's a difficult position to pull back from.
You can shift the balance in such a way that everyone remains challenged, and nobody has a free run at things. And that's what they've gone for in my opinion.
Not really. The Imperium being weakened without a huge galactic event that hampers everybody can still result in other races ending up fighting each other, not just the Imperium.
Races taking advantage of the Imperium's weakness will lead to clashing with other races trying to do the same thing. Necrons seeking to reclaim and awaken tomb worlds which were occupied by the Imperium can get into conflict with the imperial defenders, Chaos forces trying to acquire a demonic relic hidden on the planet, Eldar trying to keep the demonic relic sealed away, a Tau force seeking to bring the planet into the Tau empire and Orks looking for a scrap.
Then these inter-species wars detract from each races attempts to press the Imperium, giving it time to shore up defences deeper in its territory and marshal forces to try and retake the lost worlds and systems.
It's simply not true that all of it is new. Cadia was always about to fall for 20 years, and it finally did.
The Eldar Codex from 4th edition already hints at the resurrection of Ynnead.
Mortarion and other Daemon Primarchs always featured in the background, some more active than others.
The Loyalist primarchs were always in stasis/ hidden in the rock/ somewhere in the warp/ imprisoned by DE/Necrons - so obviously many of them were in a state of "Yeah, gone, but at the right time they might come back."
The only thing actually coming out of nowhere are the Primaris/Cawl (and all the new technology connected to them) and I agree that they're not very original as a concept. With Fabius Bile working on the same thing as Primaris even they aren't exactly new. Seems like Cawl just won the arms race.
So far the only thing I dislike about the new lore is how easily everybody in the Imperium seems to accept Guilliman and his vast changes. Yes I read Dark Imperium but it only made it even more unbelievable to me. Suddenly everybody is mostly cool with inventing new stuff and somehow the Imperium, despite being literally split in half, has the ressources to create new Legions of Space Marines. Why did no one bother to do that in the last... 9000 years?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
Sorry, I'm struggling to see your point.
What recent lore hasn't been set up in advance?
Men of Iron being a thing "in the wild" has been a potential since First and Only, over a decade ago.
The Ynnari/Birth of Ynnead has been set up since Death Masque.
The Necron pylons on Cadia has been set up for years, as has Trayzn's habit of being a rather neutral force and collecting certain individuals.
The idea of the Great Rift was set up with 6th/7th edition fluff about Abaddon's Crimson Path.
Guilliman being alive and the potential of him coming back has been around since at least since 5th.
The Primaris Marines and Cawl, while new, are hardly completely out of the blue - experiments on Space Marine geneseed such as the Tempering, Cursed Founding, and suchlike are hardly unheard of, and the creation of new equipment such as Mark 8 Errant armour and Centurion suits sets precedent for the various new items.
The only real reason I think people dislike the new lore, and say it was unfounded, was because it moved so quickly compared to the utter stagnancy we'd had beforehand. I would feel confident in saying that, had the events of the last few years been spread out over twice that time (and no other changes made), people would not have cared as much.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
Sorry, I'm struggling to see your point.
What recent lore hasn't been set up in advance?
Men of Iron being a thing "in the wild" has been a potential since First and Only, over a decade ago.
The Ynnari/Birth of Ynnead has been set up since Death Masque.
The Necron pylons on Cadia has been set up for years, as has Trayzn's habit of being a rather neutral force and collecting certain individuals.
The idea of the Great Rift was set up with 6th/7th edition fluff about Abaddon's Crimson Path.
Guilliman being alive and the potential of him coming back has been around since at least since 5th.
The Primaris Marines and Cawl, while new, are hardly completely out of the blue - experiments on Space Marine geneseed such as the Tempering, Cursed Founding, and suchlike are hardly unheard of, and the creation of new equipment such as Mark 8 Errant armour and Centurion suits sets precedent for the various new items.
The only real reason I think people dislike the new lore, and say it was unfounded, was because it moved so quickly compared to the utter stagnancy we'd had beforehand. I would feel confident in saying that, had the events of the last few years been spread out over twice that time (and no other changes made), people would not have cared as much.
Death Masque was right before it, Cadia was fine which I already stated. The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra. Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
And? Does something need a year to ferment in the fluff to suddenly make it fine?
If Death Masque had been around since 5th, would that have changed anything?
The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra.
Actually, the Crimson Path IS Abaddon's idea. Don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 6th Edition CSM book, and it's not about Kharn at all.
Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
And again, that's all just further proving my point that, if all of this stuff had been stretched out over a longer period, it would hardly be an issue.
If the time it took to be released is the main issue, then that probably means the fluff itself isn't the problem.
And? Does something need a year to ferment in the fluff to suddenly make it fine?
If Death Masque had been around since 5th, would that have changed anything?
The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra.
Actually, the Crimson Path IS Abaddon's idea. Don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 6th Edition CSM book, and it's not about Kharn at all.
Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
And again, that's all just further proving my point that, if all of this stuff had been stretched out over a longer period, it would hardly be an issue.
If the time it took to be released is the main issue, then that probably means the fluff itself isn't the problem.
How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
Are you sure you're not talking about the Red Path or Eightfold Path, and not the Crimson Path? They're very different things.
Like, literally just type in "Crimson Path 40k" into your preferred search engine, if you don't have the 6th Edition CSM book. Every result comes up for Abaddon, not Kharn.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Path
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
I don't think I am. I'm asking you a question here, one you're not answering.
The question being: If the lore developments from the last few years (let's say, starting from Death Masque) had been spread out over a longer time, would the same lore have been equally bad? Because I honestly don't think it was. The only points of issue I can see are that Cawl seems to have been able to do seemingly everything (which I admit, probably could have done with a novel of his own, set in something like M35 or something, or tying him to the involvement of the Cursed Founding), and that the Primaris came out of nowhere in great numbers (again, a Cawl novel hinting at them would have sufficed).
Other than that, everything that has happened makes sense, and doesn't jump the shark. The problem is that it all happened in a very short amount of time (compared to how slow the story advanced beforehand), which removed things like fan theories and speculation.
Think of it this way - imagine if the Ynnead/Ynnari ability to reanimate the dead had been shown off in GS2, and then there's AGES until GS3 is released. In that time, we're given a whole new faction, and we as a community can hypothesise on maybe what the Ynnari could do next in the setting. By the time Guilliman gets revived, it has been well established and known about for a while what the Ynnari can do, and so Guilliman suddenly being revived seems more like a "oh, look, a faction doing what we expect it to be able to do!" than a "wait, who are these guys and how did they do that??".
There’s some very sensible arguments here against your points del. it seems really to be that Primaris Marines and crawl are he only “new” thing that you can’t reconcile. All the others have been hinted at or about to happen for a few editions.
My comments about the HH were based on our previous arguments where you were defending the shoddy rewriting of the setting purely to sell stuff and I was saying how much it irked me. Now our roles are reversed but I still believe what was done to the heresey by BL is a worse travesty than the Primaris Marines.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
Are you sure you're not talking about the Red Path or Eightfold Path, and not the Crimson Path? They're very different things.
Like, literally just type in "Crimson Path 40k" into your preferred search engine, if you don't have the 6th Edition CSM book. Every result comes up for Abaddon, not Kharn.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Path
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
I don't think I am. I'm asking you a question here, one you're not answering.
The question being: If the lore developments from the last few years (let's say, starting from Death Masque) had been spread out over a longer time, would the same lore have been equally bad? Because I honestly don't think it was. The only points of issue I can see are that Cawl seems to have been able to do seemingly everything (which I admit, probably could have done with a novel of his own, set in something like M35 or something, or tying him to the involvement of the Cursed Founding), and that the Primaris came out of nowhere in great numbers (again, a Cawl novel hinting at them would have sufficed).
Other than that, everything that has happened makes sense, and doesn't jump the shark. The problem is that it all happened in a very short amount of time (compared to how slow the story advanced beforehand), which removed things like fan theories and speculation.
Think of it this way - imagine if the Ynnead/Ynnari ability to reanimate the dead had been shown off in GS2, and then there's AGES until GS3 is released. In that time, we're given a whole new faction, and we as a community can hypothesise on maybe what the Ynnari could do next in the setting. By the time Guilliman gets revived, it has been well established and known about for a while what the Ynnari can do, and so Guilliman suddenly being revived seems more like a "oh, look, a faction doing what we expect it to be able to do!" than a "wait, who are these guys and how did they do that??".
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
You understand how militant the editing of Wikis are, right? Wikis are pretty much as infallible as it gets as any info deemed inaccurate (whether they are correct in that is another discussion) is removed PDQ.
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
You understand how militant the editing of Wikis are, right? Wikis are pretty much as infallible as it gets as any info deemed inaccurate (whether they are correct in that is another discussion) is removed PDQ.
Also, boneappletea, Mrs Malaprop.
They are great sources but you are acting like they have every single piece of information throughout every novel. Just not true or realistic. There are no degrees to infallibility.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
Yes - which is what ABADDON'S trying to do, not Kharn.
Look, I've given my sources, and they corroborate what Lexicanum is saying. It is also supported by nearly every other source on the internet.
Please, if you're so certain Kharn is the architect of the Crimson Path, please, show me your source with a text quotation.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
How have I missed the point? All I'm seeing is you actively dodging mine. At least I'm asking you what I'm missing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:They are great sources but you are acting like they have every single piece of information throughout every novel. Just not true or realistic. There are no degrees to infallibility.
I've cited more sources than you have, and that's what, how many people supporting that the Crimson Path is by Abbaddon, not Kharn?
I mean, we have:
Myself, citing the 6th Edition Codex
Lexicanum, citing the 6th Edition and 8th Edition Codex
40k Wikia (as unreliable as it is), citing the 6th Edition Codex and 8th Edition too.
1d4chan (again, unreliable), citing 6th Edition
40klore subreddit, no source, but supporting Abaddon as the architect
Does that not throw just the tiniest bit of doubt that actually, maybe the 6th edition Codex does state Abaddon is the guy who is going the Crimson Path?
Now, I can find lots of references to Kharn following a Red path and an Eightfold path, but I can only see one reference to a Crimson Path, and that it is in the book called Kharn: The Eightfold Path, which:
A, isn't the same Crimson Path that Abaddon is referring to
B, it outright says that the World Eaters are STRAYING from that crimson path, and instead following the Eightfold Path.
Please, show me evidence to the contrary, that states Abaddon is not doing a Crimson Path.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I actually agree to this. My big problem with todays 40k is that it's not the setting I grew to study and love anymore. The new setting is... More of a relationship drama with actors to me. I feel like my dudes are increasingly unimportant in a story where others have the main stage.
Nerak wrote: The new setting is... More of a relationship drama with actors to me. I feel like my dudes are increasingly unimportant in a story where others have the main stage.
I have to admit that if you are a Guard, a Tyranid or even and Ork player, it's easy to feel like you have been left in the dust of recent events.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
also, kharn is the 'eightfold path' at least during the heresy. its what he says to loken on isstvan 3, his first sign of chaos taint. it then sparks recognition in his head when argel tal mentions it on armatura in betrayer. argel tal is killed by erebus to prevent him preventing kharns eventual embrace of khorne. the latest novel suggests he is on the red path, and from what i gather, trying to resist abaddon and his summons.
Concerning the Emperor and Guilliman scene I honestly don't understand why people are so surprised by the whole "the Emperor did not love the primarchs" thing. A couple of years back I wrote a few pages on the Emperors endeavors before the HH but decided on scrapping it due to far to little fluff being available. It ended up being mostly speculative. Here's a small taste of that paper though: What we do know about the Emperor is that at the point of engaging Horus he's about 50.000years old. He's seen humanity conquer the stars and get wrecked by their own creations (men of iron), their own evolution (psykers) and their own feelings (chaos/deamons). He has guided humanity through ideas on how the stars can be claimed for them and how he can protect his species. Already he's committed countless genocides (most famous is the murders of the thunder warriors) and witnessed his own errors cause deaths on scales no one has ever understood. He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
Now here's where I hate the retcon of the story. It should go like this: Horus has murdered Sanguinius. The Emperor is broken in body. All seems lost. And yet, against the impossible odds, against death and damnation and the ruination of the Imperium someone steps up against Horus. A single man steps between Horus and the Emperor. A regular soldier. A man that faces down a demigod. A man fully aware that he will die horribly but who will curse, fight and spit through fear that will kill him. His intentions, thoughts and drive are all unknown. A soldier that will be known as Ollanius the Pious. Horus smites the soldier without effort before he turns back to the Emperor. The man is a metaphor, for humanity as a whole, for the Imperium as a whole. The Emperor realizes that he can't abandon humanity now. He murders Horus, obliterates him and is then locked into the throne for eternity.
Did he love his sons? Did he love all of humanity? Does it even matter? When what he does is to give 10.000 years of constant suffering to guard his species. Did he love his sons? As much as he loved all of humanity. As much as he struggled longer then any other has done for any race (with the possible exception of Isha). The Emperor gave so much more to his species then anyone will ever know, and he will be scorned for his lack of love for it.
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
I guess I wasn't clear. What I ment with "safeguard" was that something like the Men of Iron rebellion or the Age of strife would never come again because the primarchs where supposed to be immune to such things. They where beings that could fight and conquer without psychic powers (with the exception of Magnus but that deserves its own thread) and they where beings that didn't need machines to do thinking for them. He uses a new tool because the previous two things that where used to conquer the galaxy in the first place had backfired. that's what I mean with "safeguard against previous wrongs".
I read the thread, it doesn't in any way disprove my theory. All it says is that visions of heresy is outdated and that the Emperors actions makes no sense. In my opinions his actions make perfect sense, people just fail to grasp his character. Mostly because people look at him from the Primarchs perspective. The Emperor would undoubtedly murder the primarchs after they where done, probably the space marines legions as well. That doesn't mean apathy doesn't hit the Emperor when he faces Horus, for reasons given above (in my previous thread).
The thing I found so intresting about the Emperor is why does he bother? Why does he embark on the monumental effort to build an imperium? The answer must be to protect mankind (he says as much in the last church). Why would he protect mankind if he doesn't care about anything?
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
I read the thread, it doesn't in any way disprove my theory. All it says is that visions of heresy is outdated and that the Emperors actions makes no sense.
It does.
Read the whole thread. Laurie (former lead editior) explains everything.
The answer to your last question is also found in the thread (or read master of mankind).
Ah, I thought you had the thread url be at the relevant page. I’m not going to bother reading 22pages of discussion, just post the relevant one here under “spoilers” or direct me to the correct one. Or just write the answers here with the proper references.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
I dont really think it changes anything. The HH series has always been a drama/tragedy unfolding among brothers (and those close to them). The emperor has played a very minior role up until master of mankind came out.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
Not particularly. Sons choosing a different path than their father is rather normal. The tragedy is in turning against each other and ripping humanity apart in the process. And in terms of the HH novels, not having any particular reason for doing so.
w1zard wrote: I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
No, I like the fact that the Emperor thought of his sons as tools more than people, and absolutely thought of them as more of "experiments" than children. But I always thought the emperor let Horus kick the crap out of him because Horus was his favorite tool, and thought that while his tool was damaged, that it might ultimately be repairable.
Horus being able to 1v1 with the emperor while the emperor was going "full out" seems contradictory to what we know about the emperor's power level was, and what we know Horus' power level was (even hopped up on chaos juice). It is also contradictory with the fact that the emperor was able to psychically oneshot Horus later on in the fight while mortally wounded and laying in a pool of his own blood.
The emperor didn't let Horus kick the crap out of him because he "loved" Horus (as we as humans might know love between a father and son), but rather because he was arrogant enough to think that Horus wasn't a big enough of a danger to him to warrant going "full out" and that he could "fix this situation" without resorting to destroying his favorite tool.
w1zard wrote: I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
No, I like the fact that the Emperor thought of his sons as tools more than people, and absolutely thought of them as more of "experiments" than children. But I always thought the emperor let Horus kick the crap out of him because Horus was his favorite tool, and thought that while his tool was damaged, that it might ultimately be repairable.
Horus being able to 1v1 with the emperor while the emperor was going "full out" seems contradictory to what we know about the emperor's power level was, and what we know Horus' power level was (even hopped up on chaos juice). It is also contradictory with the fact that the emperor was able to psychically oneshot Horus later on in the fight while mortally wounded and laying in a pool of his own blood.
The emperor didn't let Horus kick the crap out of him because he "loved" Horus (as we as humans might know love between a father and son), but rather because he was arrogant enough to think that Horus wasn't a big enough of a danger to him to warrant going "full out" and that he could "fix this situation" without resorting to destroying his favorite tool.
The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
Andersp90 wrote: The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
You may be right, but I refuse to believe that Horus (even at the height of his power) was as powerful as the emperor. That just doesn't mesh with the established lore at all. The emperor could have trashed all 18 primarchs coming at him at once.
Andersp90 wrote: The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
You may be right, but I refuse to believe that Horus (even at the height of his power) was as powerful as the emperor. That just doesn't mesh with the established lore at all. The emperor could have trashed all 18 primarchs coming at him at once.
You have to remember that the emperor got a huge powerboost on Molech after entering the chaos gate and making his pact with the dark gods (he arrived in a rocket but did not leave in it..).
Horus also went through the same gate - mabye they gave him an extra shot of juice to make sure that he could beat the emperor (or so they thought)?
Andersp90 wrote: The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
You may be right, but I refuse to believe that Horus (even at the height of his power) was as powerful as the emperor. That just doesn't mesh with the established lore at all. The emperor could have trashed all 18 primarchs coming at him at once.
You have to remember that the emperor got a huge powerboost on Molech after entering the chaos gate and making his pact with the dark gods (he arrived in a rocket but did not leave in it..).
Horus also went through the same gate - mabye they gave him an extra shot of juice to make sure that he could beat the emperor (or so they thought)?
no he didnt, this keeps coming up and having read vengful spirit all we know is the emp went in..... and thats it, we dont know what happened on the other side of the door, no pact was made with the dark gods.
Andersp90 wrote: The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
You may be right, but I refuse to believe that Horus (even at the height of his power) was as powerful as the emperor. That just doesn't mesh with the established lore at all. The emperor could have trashed all 18 primarchs coming at him at once.
You have to remember that the emperor got a huge powerboost on Molech after entering the chaos gate and making his pact with the dark gods (he arrived in a rocket but did not leave in it..).
Horus also went through the same gate - mabye they gave him an extra shot of juice to make sure that he could beat the emperor (or so they thought)?
no he didnt, this keeps coming up and having read vengful spirit all we know is the emp went in..... and thats it, we dont know what happened on the other side of the door, no pact was made with the dark gods.
No, we dont know what happent on the other side (well, we kinda do). Whether he stole his new powers or made a pact doesn't matter. We just know he came out more powerfull than ever.
"He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception."
I am pretty sure he got his powers in exchange for his "sons". Just look up the word Molech, and the meaning behind it.
I personally still interpret that line of thinking from Horus as another chaos based lie that Horus lapped up. Of Course the Emperor had to have stolen his powers from Chaos and of course Horus totally earned them the right way. I think what he got on Molach was the warp juice needed to bring his Primarchs to life, which explains why he could only make such a small number of them.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I personally still interpret that line of thinking from Horus as another chaos based lie that Horus lapped up. Of Course the Emperor had to have stolen his powers from Chaos and of course Horus totally earned them the right way. I think what he got on Molach was the warp juice needed to bring his Primarchs to life, which explains why he could only make such a small number of them.
The chaos gods never really lie in the HH series. They just present the truth in a manner that serves their end. The vision they gave magnus is a good example.
Regarding horus:
""‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here [to Molech] in humble guise and found the gateway to a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation.""
I personally believe that the Emperor got power from whatever he did past the gate on Molech. But that if he used the power to empower himself (seems like a bad idea, corruption and all that) or to create the primarchs or something else is unknown for us.
This (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/God-Emperor_of_Mankind#ADB_on_the_Emperor_in_Master_of_Mankind) gives some insight on what ADB was thinking about the emperor when writing him and I like some points made. Especially about the emperors duplicity. That he never calls them (the primarchs) by their name but he literally says Magnus as the first words in the book.
More generally about the lore changes, I think they should have gone slower. Make cadia fall + having a war for cadia (and not just the fall itself) . Months later eldar releases and the fall of biel-tan. Simply more space between the events and release models relevant to this while it happens.
EDIT:
This could be the primarchs. Superhuman beings with connection to the warp. Would also explain why he created no more after having lost them all, he simply could not.
""‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here [to Molech] in humble guise and found the gateway to a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation.""
HoundsofDemos wrote: I personally still interpret that line of thinking from Horus as another chaos based lie that Horus lapped up. Of Course the Emperor had to have stolen his powers from Chaos and of course Horus totally earned them the right way. I think what he got on Molach was the warp juice needed to bring his Primarchs to life, which explains why he could only make such a small number of them.
The chaos gods never really lie in the HH series. They just present the truth in a manner that serves their end. The vision they gave magnus is a good example.
Regarding horus:
""‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here [to Molech] in humble guise and found the gateway to a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation.""
I dont think that is a lie.
That quote could support either of our positions though. Either it boosted his power directly or it gave him the missing ingredient to make the primarchs. Given that all of them had latent psychic potential and how Fenrus Manus's death was described, I inteprete what he got was the 20 (21) warp charges/souls he needed to bring his kids to life.
The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
Jesus, Black Library, what the crap??
"You know those vignettes that made you fall so in love with the Heresy that we were able to sell you fifty books that barely held a whiff of the old magic? We're gakcanning them in favor of the new crap."
That is the most heartbreaking thing GW have done with one of their settings since the death of the Old World. Do they really think their edgelord Psychopath Emperor is as compelling as the old well-meaning but ruthless and ultimately flawed Emperor?
It's like watching Robocop turn into Remake Robocop. I ...I...
Andersp90 wrote: The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
You may be right, but I refuse to believe that Horus (even at the height of his power) was as powerful as the emperor. That just doesn't mesh with the established lore at all. The emperor could have trashed all 18 primarchs coming at him at once.
You have to remember that the emperor got a huge powerboost on Molech after entering the chaos gate and making his pact with the dark gods (he arrived in a rocket but did not leave in it..).
Horus also went through the same gate - mabye they gave him an extra shot of juice to make sure that he could beat the emperor (or so they thought)?
Damn does that sound stupid. Using bad fluff to defend bad fluff. BL really gakked the bed.
The Emperor, as he had been portrayed for decades before the revisionism, was beyond a match for Horus, and even the Chaos Gods feared his direct wrath. Nerfing him, making him some petty sociopath, and removing any hint of moral ambiguity in favor of his vision, have all made the Remake Emperor grating and bland. They've taken the humor, the humanity and the spark of hope out of the setting, leaving us with some empty Snyderverse hellscape that isn't worth reading about.
I don't understand why anyone would think the fight would be better with all of the emotional stakes replaced by power levels.
w1zard wrote: I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
No, I like the fact that the Emperor thought of his sons as tools more than people, and absolutely thought of them as more of "experiments" than children. But I always thought the emperor let Horus kick the crap out of him because Horus was his favorite tool, and thought that while his tool was damaged, that it might ultimately be repairable.
Horus being able to 1v1 with the emperor while the emperor was going "full out" seems contradictory to what we know about the emperor's power level was, and what we know Horus' power level was (even hopped up on chaos juice). It is also contradictory with the fact that the emperor was able to psychically oneshot Horus later on in the fight while mortally wounded and laying in a pool of his own blood.
The emperor didn't let Horus kick the crap out of him because he "loved" Horus (as we as humans might know love between a father and son), but rather because he was arrogant enough to think that Horus wasn't a big enough of a danger to him to warrant going "full out" and that he could "fix this situation" without resorting to destroying his favorite tool.
The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
The response to Laurie of course is that the reason people cling to William King's work is because unlike Laurie he isn't a hack who completely fails to comprehend Greek tragic structure, or is simply a sellout focused on making money off of a needlessly bloated and artistically bankrupt book series.
The lead editor may get to choose the canon, but that doesn't prevent the editor from being a godawful writer.
If Horus could fight his father equally with the Emperor giving it his, that's a massive retcon to how strong the Emperor was versus Horus. I much prefer the version that Horus even with all Four Chaos Gods giving him some juice still would not have not had a chance if the he had gone all out initially. The Emperor when he let go should be that powerful, otherwise why would chaos be that freaked out by him.
Russ in the new time line fought Horus to a near loss with a spear that the Emperor bless with a bit of his power. The idea that the same guy at full power who could create a star on command had problems fighting Horus is just ridiculous
w1zard wrote: I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
No, I like the fact that the Emperor thought of his sons as tools more than people, and absolutely thought of them as more of "experiments" than children. But I always thought the emperor let Horus kick the crap out of him because Horus was his favorite tool, and thought that while his tool was damaged, that it might ultimately be repairable.
Horus being able to 1v1 with the emperor while the emperor was going "full out" seems contradictory to what we know about the emperor's power level was, and what we know Horus' power level was (even hopped up on chaos juice). It is also contradictory with the fact that the emperor was able to psychically oneshot Horus later on in the fight while mortally wounded and laying in a pool of his own blood.
The emperor didn't let Horus kick the crap out of him because he "loved" Horus (as we as humans might know love between a father and son), but rather because he was arrogant enough to think that Horus wasn't a big enough of a danger to him to warrant going "full out" and that he could "fix this situation" without resorting to destroying his favorite tool.
The whole "holding back" thing is going the way of the dodo.
"Don't for one minute think that William King's HH text will not be completely retconned at the first opportunity. I can give you a peek behind the curtain - I wanted to have Alan Merrett completely overwrite that really outdated passage for 'Visions of Heresy', and Alan wanted to do it... but we simply didn't have time before the deadline. We'll get to that task at some future point.
But William King's original HH text is no more canon than 'Space Marine' by Ian Watson. It's painful to see people clinging to it like it's the word of god, when everything else has been correctly, authentically and appropriately re-told since then."
Quote from the former lead editor of the HH series.
The response to Laurie of course is that the reason people cling to William King's work is because unlike Laurie he isn't a hack who completely fails to comprehend Greek tragic structure, or is simply a sellout focused on making money off of a needlessly bloated and artistically bankrupt book series.
Remember, the quote is from the FORMER lead editor and that story isn't written yet. It could very well change now.
The lead editor may get to choose the canon, but that doesn't prevent the editor from being a godawful writer.
Remember, the quote is from the FORMER lead editor and that story isn't written yet. It could very well change now.
Hopefully it does change. While the Horus Heresy is too late to salvage (literally because it's ending), the Battle of Terra series could preserve some of the emotion of the original story instead of soulless action and M.N.Shyamalan style twists.
HoundsofDemos wrote: If Horus could fight his father equally with the Emperor giving it his, that's a massive retcon to how strong the Emperor was versus Horus. I much prefer the version that Horus even with all Four Chaos Gods giving him some juice still would not have not had a chance if the he had gone all out initially. The Emperor when he let go should be that powerful, otherwise why would chaos be that freaked out by him.
Russ in the new time line fought Horus to a near loss with a spear that the Emperor bless with a bit of his power. The idea that the same guy at full power who could create a star on command had problems fighting Horus is just ridiculous
I don't mind if Deamon Horus is on a level with the Emperor in personal combat.
I figure the Gods abandon Horus, leaving him weak enough for the Emperor to make his delete attack.
If we cast our mind back to Wolf of Fire and Ash, we can see the Emperor's delete attack requires a decent blow with his sword, being a jumped up Force Weapon attack, and it is initially very draining.
That said, after the attack is done, shouldn't the Emperor receive a terrific boost in power, including restoring his physical form? Something must have gone wrong, or he used a different delete attack to the one he used against the aforementioned mega mek.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What is Wolf of Fire and Ash, and why should we settle for that lame precedent instead of the iconic original material that launched the franchise?
I believe it's a short story, as part of the Horus Heresy - the new Horus Heresy that is being regarded as canon by BL.
It is, by that regard, more valid as to it's canonicity.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What is Wolf of Fire and Ash, and why should we settle for that lame precedent instead of the iconic original material that launched the franchise?
I believe it's a short story, as part of the Horus Heresy - the new Horus Heresy that is being regarded as canon by BL.
It is, by that regard, more valid as to it's canonicity.
Which again, even in the new time line makes no sense. The few times we've seen the Emperor lose it and flex his muscle he well out classed anyone else. Again, Russ nearly managed to kill Horus in his most corrupt/powerful form. GW needs to hand over the novel that covers their fight to a very good author to try and pull the climax of climaxes in 40k make sense in both versions of his characterizations.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What is Wolf of Fire and Ash, and why should we settle for that lame precedent instead of the iconic original material that launched the franchise?
I believe it's a short story, as part of the Horus Heresy - the new Horus Heresy that is being regarded as canon by BL.
It is, by that regard, more valid as to it's canonicity.
It may be regarded as canon by GW. That doesn't mean the fans will accept it as such.
Remember, the quote is from the FORMER lead editor and that story isn't written yet. It could very well change now.
Hopefully it does change. While the Horus Heresy is too late to salvage (literally because it's ending), the Battle of Terra series could preserve some of the emotion of the original story instead of soulless action and M.N.Shyamalan style twists.
I really dont think it will. And Dark Imperium all but confirms it.
But lets see. The fans wanted ADB's head on a stake after Master of mankind came out.
This is what Laurie Goulding has to say on the matter:
"I'm failing to see how this book has changed anything. The Imperium has NEVER been a nice place to live, and whoever rules from Terra, they do so in a harsh and uncaring way.
Does no one else remember all the old stories in the HH series where people who weren't part of the Imperium thought the Emperor was nothing more than a cold, unfeeling tyrant?
THAT'S BECAUSE HE IS.
We're now seeing those same traits from the POV of individuals closest to him. It's harder to deny something to the guy who has carried out your orders, etc.
Literally NOTHING has changed in the setting. This is what the Emperor always was, and always will be in Warhammer 40,000. The thing is, to deify someone and worship them for 10,000 years means that you will literally only ever see them with a halo. We've had John Grammaticus thinking the Emperor was a dangerous, duplicitous douchebag since Book 7, and 'The Last Church' in Book 10 showed just how horrible he could be to those who disagreed with him.
Warhammer 40,000 is not Halo, or Star Wars, or any of the other optimistic sci-fi settings. It's always been 100% dark. The clue has been on the first page of every edition of Warhammer 40,000 since Rogue Trader. :rolleyes:"
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
they made calgar a primaris while the mini looks badass but lore wise dumb af.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.
they made calgar a primaris while the mini looks badass but lore wise dumb af.
Why dumb af? It’s no more dumb than the making of marines in the first place. If it’s the primaris thing then marines getting new stuff isn’t new either. Every edition new kits came out and we were supposed to accept they had always been there we just didn’t here about them so it didn’t break the no new tech idea. I don’t get the hate.
Remember, the quote is from the FORMER lead editor and that story isn't written yet. It could very well change now.
Hopefully it does change. While the Horus Heresy is too late to salvage (literally because it's ending), the Battle of Terra series could preserve some of the emotion of the original story instead of soulless action and M.N.Shyamalan style twists.
I really dont think it will. And Dark Imperium all but confirms it.
But lets see. The fans wanted ADB's head on a stake after Master of mankind came out.
This is what Laurie Goulding has to say on the matter:
"I'm failing to see how this book has changed anything. The Imperium has NEVER been a nice place to live, and whoever rules from Terra, they do so in a harsh and uncaring way.
Does no one else remember all the old stories in the HH series where people who weren't part of the Imperium thought the Emperor was nothing more than a cold, unfeeling tyrant?
THAT'S BECAUSE HE IS.
We're now seeing those same traits from the POV of individuals closest to him. It's harder to deny something to the guy who has carried out your orders, etc.
Literally NOTHING has changed in the setting. This is what the Emperor always was, and always will be in Warhammer 40,000. The thing is, to deify someone and worship them for 10,000 years means that you will literally only ever see them with a halo. We've had John Grammaticus thinking the Emperor was a dangerous, duplicitous douchebag since Book 7, and 'The Last Church' in Book 10 showed just how horrible he could be to those who disagreed with him.
Warhammer 40,000 is not Halo, or Star Wars, or any of the other optimistic sci-fi settings. It's always been 100% dark. The clue has been on the first page of every edition of Warhammer 40,000 since Rogue Trader. :rolleyes:"
Pretty much this.
The Emperor sought to save mankind. That doesn't mean he cares about you, or even your planet. He's thinking on a scale few could ever contemplate. Individual lives are nothing. Individual planets likewise. Step out of line, and he'll send in his Sons to stomp you flat, wiping you out entirely if needs be.
He is not nice. He is not kind. He is not wonderful. He is necessity.
If the Imperium would have been exactly as bad with the emperor as without, it reduces the tragedy. If Horus is no longer the Emperor's favorite son, but an object malfunctioning in His eyes, it reduces the tragedy. The Horus Heresy worked as a legendary tragedy, but not so much as a brawl between just-as-bad sociopaths.
PS: This is why Chaos fanboys shouldn't write Imperial background. Now the whole setting sucks. Thanks, guys.
