Points are not the reason GK are bottom tier right now, it's their rules.

1. Weak special rules. Compared to +1 to hit, +1 to wound, or falling back and shooting, baby smite and +1 to psychic tests isn't great, especially considering most of their powers aren't that terrific

2. Their "best" units are still sub standard. A GMDK is only T6, S6, which is dismal when you compare it to other Army's big hitting options

3. Even with a points reduction, GK still lack RELIABLE ways of getting into CC. And once they are there, at 2 attacks base they aren't stellar to begin with.



I'm a huge GK fan, my first terminators were back in the DAEMONHUNTER days, but I have low expectations for the points drop.

I disagree. The amount of mass dakka that a GK can put out is a great meta counter - being mass hordes.

Nearly every unit has -3AP force weapons and you get and a psychic phase that wrecks daemons.

They have their weaknesses, yeah absolutely, but a mass 20-30% (assuming) decrease across the board will go a long way.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I disagree. The amount of mass dakka that a GK can put out is a great meta counter - being mass hordes.

Nearly every unit has -3AP force weapons and you get and a psychic phase that wrecks daemons.

They have their weaknesses, yeah absolutely, but a mass 20-30% (assuming) decrease across the board will go a long way.

GK is now the worst faction to fight against Daemon after Daemon got their codex. You just killed a spoky troblesome Daemon units (Bloodletter Bomb, large squad of Flamers, that huge Daemon Prince, etc.) with all your shining smite, stormbolter and force weapon melee attack? Feeling good? Just watch them come back at full strength 9" away from you!!! How is that feel??

And remember, each GK unit is massively over costed compared to Daemon units. And those Daemon units' psychic, high volume of shooting and close combat attacks will wreck havoc on any Space Marine units, GK is no exception and die in the same way. Yet any Daemon units destroyed by them will just come back at full strength.

The entire premise of the thread is wrong. There is no separating balance issues into "points problems" and "rules problems", as if there are underpowered units that can't be made viable with a point reduction. GK at 1 ppm would be utterly broken even without any other rule changes, so the only question is just how much of a point reduction is required to make them competitive.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I disagree. The amount of mass dakka that a GK can put out is a great meta counter - being mass hordes.

Nearly every unit has -3AP force weapons and you get and a psychic phase that wrecks daemons.

They have their weaknesses, yeah absolutely, but a mass 20-30% (assuming) decrease across the board will go a long way.

GK is now the worst faction to fight against Daemon after Daemon got their codex. You just killed a spoky troblesome Daemon units (Bloodletter Bomb, large squad of Flamers, that huge Daemon Prince, etc.) with all your shining smite, stormbolter and force weapon melee attack? Feeling good? Just watch them come back at full strength 9" away from you!!! How is that feel??

And remember, each GK unit is massively over costed compared to Daemon units. And those Daemon units' psychic, high volume of shooting and close combat attacks will wreck havoc on any Space Marine units, GK is no exception and die in the same way. Yet any Daemon units destroyed by them will just come back at full strength.

You mean that one stratagem they can only use once a turn, to bring back 1 unit a turn, twice/maybe a third time if they don't use any other stratagems during the game with no ability to farm CP when GK can easily pump out 20+ MW each turn before they even shoot?

GK are bottom tier, but not because they are playing against Daemons.

Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

GK need both point and rule changes. Stuff like Strikes, Terminators, Stormravens, Purgators can be fixed just by point drop. Sometimes, heavy point drop. Even psycannon at, say, 6 pts doesn't look that bad. And incinerator is one of the best flamers stat-wise. However, no point fixes will save librarian or NDK.

I see the main problems of GK are lack of durability, not enough damage to take out main threats in time and inability to get full force into 24" where they shine. Heavy point drops will resolve these to some extent. But to fix internal balance and make army interesting to play, and to make it competitive, rule changes are obligatory. Most current matched play rules strikes exactly GK (1 psyhic power per turn, deep stike limitations, etc.), so without new codex, there is no hope for making them proper army. Point drops will make them viable at friendly games, but I doubt CA will change anything beyond that.

Don't think it matters much to be honest. If GW just makes GK undercosted the army will work. Powerful rules would be better, because they wouldn't require buying more models. But as long as everyones cost go up and GK, costs go down a lot, there is bound to be some sort of unit that ends up being worth spamed. If out of now here a GK termintor costs around 30 or less points, the army maybe playing a lot smoother.

CorvusFortis wrote:
However, no point fixes will save librarian or NDK.

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I disagree. The amount of mass dakka that a GK can put out is a great meta counter - being mass hordes.

Nearly every unit has -3AP force weapons and you get and a psychic phase that wrecks daemons.

They have their weaknesses, yeah absolutely, but a mass 20-30% (assuming) decrease across the board will go a long way.

GK is now the worst faction to fight against Daemon after Daemon got their codex. You just killed a spoky troblesome Daemon units (Bloodletter Bomb, large squad of Flamers, that huge Daemon Prince, etc.) with all your shining smite, stormbolter and force weapon melee attack? Feeling good? Just watch them come back at full strength 9" away from you!!! How is that feel??

And remember, each GK unit is massively over costed compared to Daemon units. And those Daemon units' psychic, high volume of shooting and close combat attacks will wreck havoc on any Space Marine units, GK is no exception and die in the same way. Yet any Daemon units destroyed by them will just come back at full strength.

Gotta say as a LONG old time Daemon player, back in 5th ed Grey Knights had a power which nullified all Daemonic gifts/equipment in B2B with the caster. Seriously, they actually destroyed your WARGEAR you payed points for, and there was no way to stop the stupid power on a 2d6 LD 10 test.

Also amusingly it technically removed bloodthirsters wings, dunno how that works.

CorvusFortis wrote:
GK need both point and rule changes. Stuff like Strikes, Terminators, Stormravens, Purgators can be fixed just by point drop. Sometimes, heavy point drop. Even psycannon at, say, 6 pts doesn't look that bad. And incinerator is one of the best flamers stat-wise. However, no point fixes will save librarian or NDK.

I see the main problems of GK are lack of durability, not enough damage to take out main threats in time and inability to get full force into 24" where they shine. Heavy point drops will resolve these to some extent. But to fix internal balance and make army interesting to play, and to make it competitive, rule changes are obligatory. Most current matched play rules strikes exactly GK (1 psyhic power per turn, deep stike limitations, etc.), so without new codex, there is no hope for making them proper army. Point drops will make them viable at friendly games, but I doubt CA will change anything beyond that.

Sure 6 pts psycannon wouldn't be bad. For 1 pts you would have extra shot, 2 point of strenght, extra AP and 2 points better BS compared to ork big shoota.

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

CorvusFortis wrote:

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

The point is that there is clearly a cost at which they would be massively overpowered, and clearly a cost (the current one) where they are weak. Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

Interesting topic. The problems people complain about with Grey Knights break down into 3 areas:

- Points
- Stratagems / Psychic Powers
- Special Weapons (which could be taken to mean rules)

Points is probably the best place to start fixing them. Just filling out a single Battalion is very expensive and the lack of CPs makes it almost impossible to use of any of their Stratagems in a typical game. You end up with too few bodies on the field, those CPs get used in low-reward rerolls trying to salvage your army against mediocre lists. You really can't even soup them, they're too expensive to run with Guard.

That said... changing the rules to give Grey Knights normal smite would be a very good thing. The bonus against Daemons doesn't mean much and the penalty against everything else cripples them.

 Peregrine wrote:

CorvusFortis wrote:

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

The point is that there is clearly a cost at which they would be massively overpowered, and clearly a cost (the current one) where they are weak. Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

I really don't understand why more people don't get this. GK could be made into the new top tier army via points alone if needed. It's not like they weren't top tier in the past.

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

CorvusFortis wrote:

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

The point is that there is clearly a cost at which they would be massively overpowered, and clearly a cost (the current one) where they are weak. Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

I really don't understand why more people don't get this. GK could be made into the new top tier army via points alone if needed. It's not like they weren't top tier in the past.

One issue though is that with current rules being rather unscalable...As it is GK's work better in smaller points and go worse as points go up. If you reduce points so that they are good at one point level they still will be worse at higher point level and will become absolute broken in lower levels.

So rules are problem in being very unscalable. GW can't get their rules scale even if the existance of earth dependent on it.

 Peregrine wrote:
The entire premise of the thread is wrong. There is no separating balance issues into "points problems" and "rules problems", as if there are underpowered units that can't be made viable with a point reduction. GK at 1 ppm would be utterly broken even without any other rule changes, so the only question is just how much of a point reduction is required to make them competitive.

Not always true. Points don't exist in a vacuum and 'viable' doesn't inherently mean 'healthy'. It's possible to lower one units cost enough that it has a knock-on effect that accidentally breaks another unit in the book. You also have weird breakpoints for units with poor damage output. Sometimes you lower a units cost 1 point and it's still worthless because it doesn't have very significant output. Then you lower it another point and it's still worthless. Then another and another and another until it's still totally worthless offensively but becomes a completely unshiftable horde option. Raise back up one point and now it's terrible again. These breakpoints make some units that are extremely low damage very difficult to deal with because once they're cheap enough to not be held back by their poor damage, you can take enough of them to create meat walls that can't be killed.

The best example I ever saw of this was in AoS. There was a unit called black knights that were skeletal horseman. Dealt basically 0 damage in combat but were 12" move and 10 wounds across 5 models with a 6+ 6++(a usable statline in Sigmar) and could regenerate models every turn for 80 points. At 80pts they were completely useless, skeletons were a superior option. At 60pts you still probably wouldn't take them. Same at 59-51. At 50pts though you'd take 100 of them in big units to completely shut down your opponents ability to do anything because that's 200 wounds they'd have to cut through BEFORE regeneration and it would still leave you 1000pts for heavy hitters. The warscroll was so difficult to balance that GW just completely rewrote it to give them better damage output, and while they're still not great, they could actually be balanced by point changes now.

 Peregrine wrote:

CorvusFortis wrote:

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

The point is that there is clearly a cost at which they would be massively overpowered, and clearly a cost (the current one) where they are weak. Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

That is all nice and good, but lets say the librarians cost is glued to what other marines have to pay for their and the termintor armor cost. GW would have to point options different for different factions, depending on stuff inside the codex to balance it. And then there would be an uproar that someone playing black templars has to take a librarian from the GK codex, because he is 5 pts less then the vanila codex one.

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

CorvusFortis wrote:

Oh really? If they were 1 ppm each you honestly think nobody would take them?

But they never will, won't they? I was talking about realistic scenarios. If cost balance in the codex will be left pretty much the same, other units will outclass these ones. This was a problem since the start of the codex and only GK problem.

The point is that there is clearly a cost at which they would be massively overpowered, and clearly a cost (the current one) where they are weak. Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

I really don't understand why more people don't get this. GK could be made into the new top tier army via points alone if needed. It's not like they weren't top tier in the past.

A monkey could make a top tier army. Making a balanced army is much more complicated.

It's not necessarily that there's a magic golden number between their current cost and 0 that will make them 'balanced' partly because of the whole 'defensive power gets weird on cheap units' thing I touched on earlier, but also because the nature of the game means that every time you change the points of a unit, what constitutes a 'balanced' state changes with it. That's what a 'meta' is.

The question is not if GK could be uber powerful being undercosted, but what has a higher chance of happning. GW making a unit too powerful by giving it good rules. Or GW playing around with points for GK, which are glued to other imperial armies and other marines points costs, and GW somehow giving GK top discounts that make them top tier.

IMO the BA example shows us that the chance of getting very powerful rules, by mistake or not, is much higher, then GW pointing at a strike and saying he is 14pts.

While you can technically fix any underpowered units with points, the main problem is retaining the character and feel of the army. If GK are supposed to be elite, then even if they are balanced at, say, 6ppm, that's not a desirable cost for them so you'd want to adjust their power level up using rules changes rather than just lowering their points. That said, I'm pretty sure the balance point for GK in their current form would still retain at least something of an elite feel to them.

Well, luckily it seems at least some rules content is changing in CA (rumor about GK getting full smite which IMO makes total sense, even a bare minimum sized strike squad is the cost of another army's basic psyker character. Just give them full smite and subject them to the smite degradation rule).

Therefore somewhere on the scale is a point cost where they would be balanced and the problem can be fixed by point changes alone.

To make something overpowered by cost, you need it to be stupiditly cheap. GK Librarian will never be cheaper than a Brotherhood Champion. And if it is, this will render Brotherhood Champion useless, because Librarian is a better HQ-slot filler. If cost balance in internal codex will be the same, no one will ever take Librarian over Voldus or Grand Master for effectiveness. And no one ever will take him over Brotherhood Champion for Cheap HQ. Lirbarian is a unit, that doesn't give anything to an army. It doesn't fight better, doesn't cast better, isn't more survivable, doesn't empower other units in a way other units don't.

Same is true for NDK. GMNDK is better, Paladins are better. It doesn't kill, it isn't protected. And if it is very cheap, than Paladins becomes useless, but not because NDK is strong - simpy because one can spam it.

Making Grey Knights cost as much as guardsman won't make them good army - just broken.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, luckily it seems at least some rules content is changing in CA (rumor about GK getting full smite which IMO makes total sense, even a bare minimum sized strike squad is the cost of another army's basic psyker character. Just give them full smite and subject them to the smite degradation rule).

I like the idea of GK getting full Smite back but if it's getting subjected to degradation I'd like to see GK get a +2 to cast Smite, instead of their flat +1 to cast. I think that would give them a little better chance to be the psyker elites they are in the newest lore.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Also amusingly it technically removed bloodthirsters wings, dunno how that works.

They could be weakened by "anti-warp-stuff" enough that they no longer have the strength to fly.

I hate to say it, but the combination of Soup, GW's basic imbalance of Horde forces being more durable than elite forces,makes a back and forth problem GW doesn't seem to want to solve.

GK can't be dropped enough to cost correctly as then they will be the soup de jure, and they can't be made durable enough to meet their point cost as it stands, as than they would invalidate Custodes.

the_scotsman wrote:
(rumor about GK getting full smite which IMO makes total sense

I disagree.
I know it's not going to happen, but I'd have rather GKs lose Smite across the board (except Purifiers/ Librarians)

And each unit gains a "signature buff" power instead to further their role
Strikes help reduce distance for Deep Striking GK units
Interceptors get Warp Quake to further the distance enemy units can deep strike
Etc.

I worry that GK getting full smite just turns us into Loyal Thousand Sons.

I've always seen it as GKs using Psychic Powers internally (to buff themselves) while Thousand Sons use Psychic Powers externally (to cast magic missiles, aka Smite)

 Trickstick wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Also amusingly it technically removed bloodthirsters wings, dunno how that works.

They could be weakened by "anti-warp-stuff" enough that they no longer have the strength to fly.

Sisters and imperial saints do stuff like desoloving demons, by looking at them. And most of them are no where as pure, or knowladgable about chaos as a single GK.
The sole existance of GK should make demons blink out of existance when faced by GK.

Karol wrote:
Sisters and imperial saints do stuff like desoloving demons, by looking at them. And most of them are no where as pure, or knowladgable about chaos as a single GK.
The sole existance of GK should make demons blink out of existance when faced by GK.

GKs only get sent against the worst daemon incursions though. The effects of the warp spilling into the materium in such large amounts probably anchors the daemons somewhat, counteracting the effect of the GKs.

Loafing wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
(rumor about GK getting full smite which IMO makes total sense

I disagree.
I know it's not going to happen, but I'd have rather GKs lose Smite across the board (except Purifiers/ Librarians)

And each unit gains a "signature buff" power instead to further their role
Strikes help reduce distance for Deep Striking GK units
Interceptors get Warp Quake to further the distance enemy units can deep strike
Etc.

I worry that GK getting full smite just turns us into Loyal Thousand Sons.

I've always seen it as GKs using Psychic Powers internally (to buff themselves) while Thousand Sons use Psychic Powers externally (to cast magic missiles, aka Smite)

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

Which makes sense and fits, it helps further the damage potential between PAGKs being support and TDAGKs being the heavy hitters. GW would probably rename the power.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Holocaust has been a Psychic power for GKs since at least 3e with Codex Daemonhunters.

Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”.

GK need to bottom to top overhaul. Their rules need to be fix, and then adjust points. GKs have 2 Troops choices that are not balanced against each other, unlike regular Astartes that are. We don’t select Strikes as a cheaper/less survivable option that has this special rule we can build a list around; no, we take Strikes because 40 Bolter shots at 12” is cheaper than 20 shots from a still more expensive GKT squad. Yes, the GKT are vaguely more survivable, but not by much. Double firepower for roughly the same survivability wins out. Not a special rule to build an arm on, just firepower over survivability. Bad design.

The GMDK was the worst unit GW ever added to an army. It invalidates the NDK because it’s too good not to take. It does not have a kit, which makes it counter to GW’s own policy of discouraging kitbashes. It’s so good, the people only choice in a HQ unit not a GMDK is the Brotherhood Captain, because he’s cheap AND has a special rule. Again, bad design.

One box set of GKT builds all TDA units except for Draigo. One box set of Strikes builds all PA units. What you build is based solely on what is “good this time” rather than what is interesting to build an army off of. Another bad design choice.

Rule of One is unscalable with the GK army design.

Deep Strike restriction is counter to the GK army design.

Astartes units across the game are not correctly stat’d.

Adjusting points only shifts the problem, it doesn’t even come close to fixing it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

GKs are hard to balance because their units have too much overlap in role. Points will go a long way to fix some issues, but you realistically reach a point in which you shouldn't go any cheaper.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

Death Guard are interesting because they don't exactly have a lot of builds to use.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

You can make the connection to the real world event in the same way one may refer to Operation Overlord as D-Day. D-Day is the big name most people use, but in reality there are many d-days. Same with Holocaust, as that is just slaughter on a mass scale.

 Apple Peel wrote:
[

Same with Holocaust, as that is just slaughter on a mass scale.

Oh for feths sake.

I think GK just need a top to bottom redesign.

Take strike marines. In a world where they can deep strike (yes turn 2 - yes it can be screened, bla bla), throw out a small/full smite (or another power), shoot you with 20 stormbolter shots and then charge for 10 AP-2/d3 damage attacks how many points should they be?

Because they can't easily be 13 or so - their damage output would be brokenly good.
But at 21 points a model they are incredibly fragile. A stiff breeze gets its points back when targeting them.

I am not sure there is a sweet spot to be found here.
And what goes for Strike Marines applies to almost everything else.

Its basically the inverse Eldar problem. Balancing glass hammers is hard.

Loafing wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

those would have to be ground breaking spells though, and it would always create a utility problem, against armies that can stop you from casting. No one is going to be running super cool purifires, if all it takes to turn them in to overcosted strikes is a dispel away.

Why not keep the GK HQs as psykers, but remove the psyker option from the unit in most cases. The ancient or dread could still cast, but not a termintor or strike unit. Both would get an ability though, that buffs them somehow. And then we could play around with units. Maybe strikes are cheaper and shot more, but their ability is support only, while termintors get something more pro active like +1A .

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

We aren't going to pander to easily triggered people, who really shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. That is the definition of a holocaust and it fits the power well.

Loafing wrote:
Holocaust has been a Psychic power for GKs since at least 3e with Codex Daemonhunters.

Since 2nd edition, though it wasn't exclusively a GK power back then. I remember some people thought the name was a bit dodgy even then, to the point that I was genuinely surprised they kept the name into 3rd edition.

I think anyone who claims to think of the word as only a generic term for mass-killing is being disingenuous.

Karol wrote:

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

Not even close. I play Eldar and briefly played GKs in 5-6th ed. I just feel that overall there are too many books for 40K. Some consolidation would be nice and a single =][=, GK, DW book makes perfect sense, as does a single SM Codex including BAs and DAs.

Inventing "new" units just to maximize boxset sales may be a good business decision, but it isn't always best for the game.
In the case of GKs, GW "invented" Paladins just to have 2 units for the Terminator box to be able to make. This minimizes the chance that the box won't sell because at least 1 build might consistently be viable. They easily could have just made the box make JUST Terminators, but make Terminator rule good on their own.

Same for PAGKs. They could have been a dual kit of Strikes + some special, but GW got greedy and "invented" an Elite, FA and Heavy unit for the kit to build. But they didn't actually flesh out the rules properly for all to be viable options. 1 particular build will always be the obvious "winner" and all point changes will do is alter which unit that it.
If you built your unit as X because X was good, be prepared to Y to be the new hotness, either encouraging you to buy another box, or chop up and rebuild your existing models to be Y

-

Tyel wrote:
I think GK just need a top to bottom redesign.

Take strike marines. In a world where they can deep strike (yes turn 2 - yes it can be screened, bla bla), throw out a small/full smite (or another power), shoot you with 20 stormbolter shots and then charge for 10 AP-2/d3 damage attacks how many points should they be?

Because they can't easily be 13 or so - their damage output would be brokenly good.
But at 21 points a model they are incredibly fragile. A stiff breeze gets its points back when targeting them.

I am not sure there is a sweet spot to be found here.
And what goes for Strike Marines applies to almost everything else.

Its basically the inverse Eldar problem. Balancing glass hammers is hard.

I agree that an overhaul could do GK some good, and maybe that means removing deep striking from PA units other than Interceptors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Loafing wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

those would have to be ground breaking spells though, and it would always create a utility problem, against armies that can stop you from casting. No one is going to be running super cool purifires, if all it takes to turn them in to overcosted strikes is a dispel away.

Why not keep the GK HQs as psykers, but remove the psyker option from the unit in most cases. The ancient or dread could still cast, but not a termintor or strike unit. Both would get an ability though, that buffs them somehow. And then we could play around with units. Maybe strikes are cheaper and shot more, but their ability is support only, while termintors get something more pro active like +1A .

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

I don't think removing psyker from PA units without giving them some kind of buff or aura would work out well though. I mean it's the main reason these children were chosen to become GK, their psyker potential...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Karol wrote:

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

Not even close. I play Eldar and briefly played GKs in 5-6th ed. I just feel that overall there are too many books for 40K. Some consolidation would be nice and a single =][=, GK, DW book makes perfect sense, as does a single SM Codex including BAs and DAs.

Inventing "new" units just to maximize boxset sales may be a good business decision, but it isn't always best for the game.
In the case of GKs, GW "invented" Paladins just to have 2 units for the Terminator box to be able to make. This minimizes the chance that the box won't sell because at least 1 build might consistently be viable. They easily could have just made the box make JUST Terminators, but make Terminator rule good on their own.

Same for PAGKs. They could have been a dual kit of Strikes + some special, but GW got greedy and "invented" an Elite, FA and Heavy unit for the kit to build. But they didn't actually flesh out the rules properly for all to be viable options. 1 particular build will always be the obvious "winner" and all point changes will do is alter which unit that it.
If you built your unit as X because X was good, be prepared to Y to be the new hotness, either encouraging you to buy another box, or chop up and rebuild your existing models to be Y

-

I agree on most of these points. I've never personally liked Purifiers and their lore is sub-standard at best. "We're more 'pure' then the rest of the Emperor's 'purest' " just dumb.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

It'd be an awkward one to use if you were playing against a Jewish person...

I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

They were pretty decent when turn 1 DS was a thing. Also - the Storm Raven nerf really hurt the GK.

Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

Targeted Smite is an interesting idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

Agreed about the overkill.

2nd player deep striking is an interesting idea too, though that's more of a game changer then specifically fixing GKs

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

A decent portion of that also comes down to terrain. Something that can't really be controlled.

GK's main problem is an old fundamental problem.

They are more expensive then marines and die as easily.
(and thats before getting into the problem that marines themselves are not good atm).
Either they need to be more survivable then marines (which is what GW did right with Custodes) or they need to not be more expensive (like lose the hilariously expensive and mostly useless melee weapons)

The upcoming point reduction isn't going to help GK's unless they are making basic Grey Knights like 15 points instead of 21.

 Ordana wrote:
GK's main problem is an old fundamental problem.

They are more expensive then marines and die as easily.
(and thats before getting into the problem that marines themselves are not good atm).
Either they need to be more survivable then marines (which is what GW did right with Custodes) or they need to not be more expensive (like lose the hilariously expensive and mostly useless melee weapons)

The upcoming point reduction isn't going to help GK's unless they are making basic Grey Knights like 15 points instead of 21.

I'd like to see GK in between Custodes and regular Marines when it comes to survivability. Maybe base PAGK moving to 2 wounds, Terminators moving to 3 with Paladins moving to 4?

In the fluff, GK train for 50 years before given their first set of powered armor; they have to be tougher, mentaly and physically, then normal marines.

Here are my ideas from a post I made ages ago.

I have played several styles of Grey Knight list in 8th, they range from pretty lousy to comedically uncompetitive. Currently play footslogging paladins (since deep strike nerf)with Las/ML ven dread support, which does surprisingly ok.

I don't think points reductions are the way to go in most cases, GK sit at about the right point level in my opinion, instead they need some characterful cool rules to bring them up to the power level of other armies, bringing back some of the old rules they had in the past to give the army more flavour.

Terminators should be T5, this should apply to all terminator units not just GK, because terminators are pretty much junk across the board. 5+ to wound from standard small arms S4 and S10 needed to get down to 2+ to wound would make a huge difference. And actually make terminators a fair bit better. I've been saying this for 5 editions, T4 just isn't that durable. GK TDA wouldn't need much of points drop if any at T5 with some of the added stuff I'll mention below.

Give all units 2 cast and deny 1 at the very least, so they can cast utility powers depending on situation.

Add a second psychic tree available to all GK units and exempt from psychic focus.

This table would include 3 utility powers and would be auto included for all GK, as in no need to select these powers.

- Hammerhand (same as current power)
- Sanctuary (same as current power)
- Psybolt Ammunition (instead of current strat)

I thought about gate for this list, but a whole army gating each turn would be stupidly broken, these 3 powers i think represent the cornerstone of GKs psychic ability.

Bring back true grit, GK can fire storm bolters as if they were pistols in CC. This is more flavourful than a straight buff to number of attacks, combined with psybolt as a power it would provide some much needed killing power which GK sorely lack.

Bring back The Aegis , 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds (paladins some & characters could get a 5+).

Bring back the shrouding -1 to hit outside 18", could be a little op, if so make it an AOE psychic power which could replace one of the junk powers in current table.

Would really prefer to see something cool like this in the next codex rather than simple points drops.

 Trickstick wrote:

Karol wrote:
Sisters and imperial saints do stuff like desoloving demons, by looking at them. And most of them are no where as pure, or knowladgable about chaos as a single GK.
The sole existance of GK should make demons blink out of existance when faced by GK.

GKs only get sent against the worst daemon incursions though. The effects of the warp spilling into the materium in such large amounts probably anchors the daemons somewhat, counteracting the effect of the GKs.

Why are they forcing a narative stratagem in matches play? All the other regenerating/unit generating stratagems only work in narrative, why this one?

GK suffer the same problem that all marines have had since I started in 5th. The game has become increasingly deadly, and no matter how much extra rules or offensive output you give a MEQ body, T4 and 3+ is a joke at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

A list with Death Guard terminators in it won a major once so now Xeno thinks the codex is overpowered.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

I mean it kinda does. Language is essentially just a set of sounds with specific associations, and this particular sound has a particularly bad association with it in the current vernacular. Wouldn't be the only thing the Nazis ruined forever for everyone (see: the swastika). This is pretty off-topic though.

RE: Rules vs. Points, sure you could potentially balance everything with points, but eventually you get to where the points values mess with the aesthetic and feel of an army. Let's assume for a moment that Grey Knights, as they are right now, would be a good unit at 10 points; if GW were to reduce their points to that level then suddenly you would be fielding a lot of marines in your army. What is billed as a hyper-elite subfaction of an elite faction is now only a few steps away from a horde. It's important that your Grey Knights army doesn't have that many individual models because the idea behind the army is that each dude is individually very strong, much stronger than an individual Skitarii or Battle Sister. With that in mind sometimes it's better to buff the rules to match the points cost than it is to simply reduce the points values.

I disagree with the OP.

Ok, I am not saying that the rules could not be tweaked, or that they are perfect as they are, however, a reduction in point cost is clearly needed and the most important place to start.

I have a 2000 point GK army, and my model count is only 36, and that is mostly marines + termies. I don't even have a GMDK. You simply just don't get much for your points, and that is why they fail so much.To be fair, my army is a bit of a fail army anyway (even for GK's), but thats besides the point.

I think my 2000 point army would be comparible to a lot of other races 1500 points, certainly 1750 would be an even game.

Is there any romours of a points reduction in the 2018CA? Any leaks? I guess it will happen but will be interested to see to what extent.

Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

Well the sternguard and DW get their ammo for "free". But you would have to ask the GW rules team about it. I think that when they transitioned to 8th ed, and cut off rules from every army, they tried to turn some in to stratagems. GK didn't seem to have many in the first place, plus GW weren't really getting in to real stratagems till they did eldar and IG. In the end no body will ever know what GW was thinking when they put out the GK codex.

Honestly that alone would probably be a decent fix and you wouldn't need that many price cuts.

Karol wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

Well the sternguard and DW get their ammo for "free". But you would have to ask the GW rules team about it. I think that when they transitioned to 8th ed, and cut off rules from every army, they tried to turn some in to stratagems. GK didn't seem to have many in the first place, plus GW weren't really getting in to real stratagems till they did eldar and IG. In the end no body will ever know what GW was thinking when they put out the GK codex.

Don't forget Thousand Sons inferno rounds... which as far as I understand are functionally the same thing, just voodoo-enhanced bolter rounds.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

I mean it kinda does. Language is essentially just a set of sounds with specific associations, and this particular sound has a particularly bad association with it in the current vernacular. Wouldn't be the only thing the Nazis ruined forever for everyone (see: the swastika). This is pretty off-topic though.

We'll just have to disagree.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

 Ordana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Karol wrote:


As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Psybolts were 20pts/unit or 5pts for a single model IIRC. And back then Strikes were 20pts, Terminators were 40pts, Paladins were 55pts. It was usually more efficient to upgrade a squad with psybolt than to buy another body.

It gave all Bolters, Assault Cannons, & Autocannons +1S

Which gave Rifledreads S8. Huge. Combined with no Hull Points/Wounds and all GK vehicles ignoring shaken/stunned. Rifledreads were hard to stop

Stormbolters killed T3 5+ on 2s no save
Razorbacks could have S6 Heavybolters. Wounding T4 on 2s.

I expect Psybolt ammo to be one of these formation benefits for GK. Which would be a game changer. Could maybe just drop proportionally 6-7pts more than a standard marine

 fraser1191 wrote:
I expect Psybolt ammo to be one of these formation benefits for GK. Which would be a game changer. Could maybe just drop proportionally 6-7pts more than a standard marine

I don't. From what I'd guess. It would be a rehash/reimagining of our 7e formations

(Either that or a 3rd Brotherhood formation to keep pimping out Voldus)

Loafing wrote:


Psybolts were 20pts/unit or 5pts for a single model IIRC. And back then Strikes were 20pts, Terminators were 40pts, Paladins were 55pts. It was usually more efficient to upgrade a squad with psybolt than to buy another body.

It gave all Bolters, Assault Cannons, & Autocannons +1S

Which gave Rifledreads S8. Huge. Combined with no Hull Points/Wounds and all GK vehicles ignoring shaken/stunned. Rifledreads were hard to stop

Stormbolters killed T3 5+ on 2s no save
Razorbacks could have S6 Heavybolters. Wounding T4 on 2s.

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

Karol wrote:

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

No we couldn't take Autocannons/Heavybolters on infantry in 5e. Those were only options for our vehicles (like they are now)
Rifledread is just a gamer name for a Dreadnought with two Autocannon arms

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

DG are top teir. It's odd that it's their mech that is strong but it is some of the best mech in the game. Mainly due to 5++/5+++ . I'm not talking about soup man. I'm talking about the codex on it's own. Plus you gotta get it though your head - if it is being taken as an ingredient in soup - it is overall the best choice (top teir).

Loafing wrote:

Karol wrote:

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

No we couldn't take Autocannons/Heavybolters on infantry in 5e. Those were only options for our vehicles (like they are now)
Rifledread is just a gamer name for a Dreadnought with two Autocannon arms

Ok, still GK somehow lost the ability to take those two cannon dreads, they aren't in the codex. I wouldn't mind psy ammo becoming GK chapter tactic.

Man, just taking a quick look at the GK stuff... they are much weaker than they used to be in 5th edition it looks like. Back then they had Land Raiders they could assault out of, terminators and knights with strength 6 / ignore armor in melee, and Grandmasters who could instant-kill literally anything if they scratched it (admittedly this was because the Daemonhunters codex had the old RAW for force weapons). Psycannons ignored invulnerable saves. I had a 2000 point list that consisted of 3 land raiders, 20 GK, 5 GKT, and 2 Grandmasters... and it was super fun to play. I remember killing 'Nid and Ork armies outnumbering me 5 to 1. Good times.

Karol wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Back then it was GK + inquisition in 1 codex.
And as someone else said you had an upgrade that give Bolter weapons, Autocannons and Assault cannons +1 str (Psybolt Ammo).

So you would take 3 dreadnoughts with 2x twin autocannons and make them str 8. Which was huge because you would instant kill T4 models.
Take some inquisitorial henchmen (3 Guardsmen at 3 points each) and buy them a Razorback with H.Bolter or Assault cannon which you made +1 str for 5 points.

So you could build a gunline out of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks
My 'GK' list that I got 10th at a GT with was roughly Inquisitor, 3 Dreadnoughts, 5 Razorbacks, 3x3 Guardsmen with Meltaguns and 2 units of Deathcult Assassins + Crusaders

(The Dreadnoughts are still in the index, the weapon options were scrapped for the codex because only FW makes the arms for it.)

Karol wrote:

Ok, still GK somehow lost the ability to take those two cannon dreads, they aren't in the codex. I wouldn't mind psy ammo becoming GK chapter tactic.

Except we haven't. The second autocannon arm is in the Index. Which is still usable for wargear.

(Second Autocannon arm was Forgeworld. Codex options are now to match the options in the plastic kits*)

* except when it's not.

Yep, but it is also ass because it isn't STR 8, so I wouldn't bother with it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

DG are top teir. It's odd that it's their mech that is strong but it is some of the best mech in the game. Mainly due to 5++/5+++ . I'm not talking about soup man. I'm talking about the codex on it's own. Plus you gotta get it though your head - if it is being taken as an ingredient in soup - it is overall the best choice (top teir).

LOL. Outside of Spitter Drones and PBC (which will no doubt get an increase in CA) - what units do you think make up Top Tier? Mono DG has very little answer for IK spam for starters - please tell me, how will DG dominate the meta as Top Tier?

You have no idea at all. DG have a couple units which are only taken because they synergise with Nurgle Soup.

Thing is some point increases are moot.

For example I run a PBC and 2 units of plague marines. If a crawler goes up 10 (or even 20)and marines go down 2ppm I actually have 10 more points freed up(or break even)

But I know most people don't use plague marines so whatever

I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

I'm curious what your normal army looks like? Cause 5 points a model for most infantry is a pretty significant drop.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Thing is some point increases are moot.

For example I run a PBC and 2 units of plague marines. If a crawler goes up 10 (or even 20)and marines go down 2ppm I actually have 10 more points freed up(or break even)

But I know most people don't use plague marines so whatever

Given the noise GW has made about Grey Knights points changes, it's reasonable to expect the differences to be more significant and reductive across the board.

What happens with your PMs when the change is -3ppm and -40 on the PBC?

-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

True, but that comment was really just inviting comparison.

If GK are the winner in cost changes, as GW claims, the reductions would have to be substantial.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

I'm curious what your normal army looks like? Cause 5 points a model for most infantry is a pretty significant drop.

I run draigo, unit of termintors, a unit of paladins and a unit of strikes and a nemezi dread knight. But even if my army was just strike they are 21 pts each without any hvy weapon in squad or transport.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:
-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

yes. That is probablly true. But plague marines have good rules or at least fun ones to use, their stuff just costs too much to see play. most GK if it droped 1-3 pts would still be bad. Lets say strikes drop 2 pts each and someone run 30 of them. That is 60pts lets say the rest of units give him another 60pts saved. That is a razorback or a dreadnought. I don't see how a single one of those suddenly turns the game in favor of GK, when they face a good army.

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

In the new Ork book. Mega armour nobz without wargear cost 1 point more than a naked PAGK.

I wouldn't be surprised if CA makes GK Terminators to be between 25-30 points fully kitted and Paladins to be 35-40points fully kitted.

I don't think I want balanced changes. a Few months ago I thought the game would be ok, if most armies were more or less equal. Now I just want to get as OP rules as possible. There is nothing in the game to force people to not use the best stuff, so when balanced stuff just turns in to bad stuff very fast. And while there are books like eldar, where bad means worse then the top 10 models in the entire game, all the leaks seem to be pointing out at no rules changes for GK. Ergo to play and have fun for another year, the drops would have to be huge. Am all for them, I just question the possibility of such changes.
On the other hand if they drop PAGK by 1 point, and termintors by 2, the army will be more or less the same it is now.

Karol wrote:
I don't think I want balanced changes. a Few months ago I thought the game would be ok, if most armies were more or less equal. Now I just want to get as OP rules as possible. There is nothing in the game to force people to not use the best stuff, so when balanced stuff just turns in to bad stuff very fast. And while there are books like eldar, where bad means worse then the top 10 models in the entire game, all the leaks seem to be pointing out at no rules changes for GK. Ergo to play and have fun for another year, the drops would have to be huge. Am all for them, I just question the possibility of such changes.
On the other hand if they drop PAGK by 1 point, and termintors by 2, the army will be more or less the same it is now.

but what if it was PAGK by 1 and termies by 2 and everything else by a little bit as well...will it be enough? ONly playing will know but I doubt they will just change 2 or three units. I'll bet on most units getting price drops

The other thing to remember in all this is that GW has often exaggerated the effect of “the next big thing” this edition. The non-GW rumors specifically mention GK characters, nothing else. And there is a price floor for GK units: Space Marine equivalents plus a few points; so there is a very good chance that GK don’t actually get much in the way of changes this chapter approved, wishlisting aside.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The other thing to remember in all this is that GW has often exaggerated the effect of “the next big thing” this edition. The non-GW rumors specifically mention GK characters, nothing else. And there is a price floor for GK units: Space Marine equivalents plus a few points; so there is a very good chance that GK don’t actually get much in the way of changes this chapter approved, wishlisting aside.

Man can you imagine something like NDK GM going up in points, strikes and termintors saying more or less the same, but the point drops existing in the form of GK techmarine costing less, bro champ being cheaper etc?

It seems like most people in this thread are saying the best changes (or maybe expected changes) would be:

drop PAGK/Term by a few ppm & drop weapon prices by a hefty amount

I really like the idea of bringing back points purchasable "psybolt ammo" but think it would be bad if the ammo was so good as to be auto-include.

I don't recall seeing more then one or two mentions of a "Chapter Tactics" change. GK have 8 distinct Brotherhoods. What about 8 minor "Chapter Tactics", one for each Brotherhood?


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Karol wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
The other thing to remember in all this is that GW has often exaggerated the effect of “the next big thing” this edition. The non-GW rumors specifically mention GK characters, nothing else. And there is a price floor for GK units: Space Marine equivalents plus a few points; so there is a very good chance that GK don’t actually get much in the way of changes this chapter approved, wishlisting aside.

Man can you imagine something like NDK GM going up in points, strikes and termintors saying more or less the same, but the point drops existing in the form of GK techmarine costing less, bro champ being cheaper etc?

Speaking of Techmarines...why can't we get them option to give them Nemesis Daemon weapons again? It would be a minor hand swap to change out the Power Axe for a normal GK melee weapon...

 Lord Clinto wrote:

GK have 8 distinct Brotherhoods. What about 8 minor "Chapter Tactics", one for each Brotherhood?

Would be like having a separate Chapter Tactic for each Company of the ULTRAMARINES.

Though I could see specific Brotherhoods getting love via Formations.

Loafing wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

GK have 8 distinct Brotherhoods. What about 8 minor "Chapter Tactics", one for each Brotherhood?

Would be like having a separate Chapter Tactic for each Company of the ULTRAMARINES.

Though I could see specific Brotherhoods getting love via Formations.

That's why I specified "minor"; I guess more for flavor then game-breaking power...sort of like how Ork Kulturs are mostly a mashup of two traits in one.

In addition to the GK's "Chapter Tactics" armies formed entirely from specific Brotherhoods could receive the following...and I'm just spit-balling here:
1st Brotherhood: Vehicular Precision - GK Vehicles (maybe not including walkers) from this Brotherhood receive +1 to hit when shooting at either Vehicles or Flyers, chosen before the start of the game.
2nd Brotherhood: From the Void - An additional 10% of your army (up to 60% of total PL) may deep strike.
3rd Brotherhood: Psychic Mastery - An additional +1 to cast a single, specific Sanctic Psychic power (obviously not Smite), chosen before the start of the game.
4th Brotherhood: Prescience - If a Librarian is on the board at the start of the player's turn they may designate one friendly unit within 12-18" of the Librarian to receive a buff. That unit receives either the benefits of Cover or Ignores Cover when shooting until the start of the player's next turn.
5th Brotherhood: Helping Hand - Apothecaries grant a 6+ FnP to one friendly GK unit within 3-6".
6th Brotherhood: Surgical Strength - Infantry Units (maybe even non-Character Infantry Units) starting the game with 5 or fewer GK models receive +1 to hit in the Fight Phase when Charging or performing a Heroic Intervention.
7th Brotherhood: Gift of Courage - Allied AM Infantry Units within 6-12" of a friendly 7th Brotherhood GK unit receive +1 Ld.
8th Brotherhood: Precise Strikes - All AP0 weapons are treated as AP-1 against a specified Unit type (Infantry, Vehicle, Calvary, etc..), chosen before the start of the game.

As far as I can tell, none of these are game breaking. In fact most are very situational.

Designating your force as coming from a specific Brotherhood would stop Voldus from being an auto-include (unless you were using a 3rd Brotherhood force). Draigo, being "Chapter Master" would get the Brotherhood Benefit of which ever force he accompanied.

 Lord Clinto wrote:


8th Brotherhood: Precise Strikes - All AP0 weapons are treated as AP-1 against a specified Unit type (Infantry, Vehicle, Calvary, etc..), chosen before the start of the game.

Turning all Stormbolters into AP-1 is pretty big. Especially depending on the situation if Psybolts stacks turning them into S5 AP-2.

We'd be then getting two subfaction bonuses. I still think "Formations" like how Blitz Brigade is handled would be better.

1 Relic, 1 Warlord Trait and like 3 Brotherhood specific stratagems to add flavour.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Thing is some point increases are moot.

For example I run a PBC and 2 units of plague marines. If a crawler goes up 10 (or even 20)and marines go down 2ppm I actually have 10 more points freed up(or break even)

But I know most people don't use plague marines so whatever

Given the noise GW has made about Grey Knights points changes, it's reasonable to expect the differences to be more significant and reductive across the board.

What happens with your PMs when the change is -3ppm and -40 on the PBC?

I'd play lower point games as I can only reach 1500 with them as is.

But in all seriousness I hope they are fair drops for GK and not overkill. I do believe we'll see either a second set of powers or revamped powers and if they feel guilty enough relic changes