Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

I mean it kinda does. Language is essentially just a set of sounds with specific associations, and this particular sound has a particularly bad association with it in the current vernacular. Wouldn't be the only thing the Nazis ruined forever for everyone (see: the swastika). This is pretty off-topic though.

RE: Rules vs. Points, sure you could potentially balance everything with points, but eventually you get to where the points values mess with the aesthetic and feel of an army. Let's assume for a moment that Grey Knights, as they are right now, would be a good unit at 10 points; if GW were to reduce their points to that level then suddenly you would be fielding a lot of marines in your army. What is billed as a hyper-elite subfaction of an elite faction is now only a few steps away from a horde. It's important that your Grey Knights army doesn't have that many individual models because the idea behind the army is that each dude is individually very strong, much stronger than an individual Skitarii or Battle Sister. With that in mind sometimes it's better to buff the rules to match the points cost than it is to simply reduce the points values.

I disagree with the OP.

Ok, I am not saying that the rules could not be tweaked, or that they are perfect as they are, however, a reduction in point cost is clearly needed and the most important place to start.

I have a 2000 point GK army, and my model count is only 36, and that is mostly marines + termies. I don't even have a GMDK. You simply just don't get much for your points, and that is why they fail so much.To be fair, my army is a bit of a fail army anyway (even for GK's), but thats besides the point.

I think my 2000 point army would be comparible to a lot of other races 1500 points, certainly 1750 would be an even game.

Is there any romours of a points reduction in the 2018CA? Any leaks? I guess it will happen but will be interested to see to what extent.

Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

Well the sternguard and DW get their ammo for "free". But you would have to ask the GW rules team about it. I think that when they transitioned to 8th ed, and cut off rules from every army, they tried to turn some in to stratagems. GK didn't seem to have many in the first place, plus GW weren't really getting in to real stratagems till they did eldar and IG. In the end no body will ever know what GW was thinking when they put out the GK codex.

Honestly that alone would probably be a decent fix and you wouldn't need that many price cuts.

Karol wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

Well the sternguard and DW get their ammo for "free". But you would have to ask the GW rules team about it. I think that when they transitioned to 8th ed, and cut off rules from every army, they tried to turn some in to stratagems. GK didn't seem to have many in the first place, plus GW weren't really getting in to real stratagems till they did eldar and IG. In the end no body will ever know what GW was thinking when they put out the GK codex.

Don't forget Thousand Sons inferno rounds... which as far as I understand are functionally the same thing, just voodoo-enhanced bolter rounds.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Yeah, really. That's what the powers called.
Here's the definition of the word: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holocaust
The Holocaust merely refers to 1 specific real world example. And as terrible as that was, it doesn't transform the word into something sacred that can only ever be used in reference to that one instance.

I mean it kinda does. Language is essentially just a set of sounds with specific associations, and this particular sound has a particularly bad association with it in the current vernacular. Wouldn't be the only thing the Nazis ruined forever for everyone (see: the swastika). This is pretty off-topic though.

We'll just have to disagree.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

 Ordana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Karol wrote:


As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Psybolts were 20pts/unit or 5pts for a single model IIRC. And back then Strikes were 20pts, Terminators were 40pts, Paladins were 55pts. It was usually more efficient to upgrade a squad with psybolt than to buy another body.

It gave all Bolters, Assault Cannons, & Autocannons +1S

Which gave Rifledreads S8. Huge. Combined with no Hull Points/Wounds and all GK vehicles ignoring shaken/stunned. Rifledreads were hard to stop

Stormbolters killed T3 5+ on 2s no save
Razorbacks could have S6 Heavybolters. Wounding T4 on 2s.

I expect Psybolt ammo to be one of these formation benefits for GK. Which would be a game changer. Could maybe just drop proportionally 6-7pts more than a standard marine

 fraser1191 wrote:
I expect Psybolt ammo to be one of these formation benefits for GK. Which would be a game changer. Could maybe just drop proportionally 6-7pts more than a standard marine

I don't. From what I'd guess. It would be a rehash/reimagining of our 7e formations

(Either that or a 3rd Brotherhood formation to keep pimping out Voldus)

Loafing wrote:


Psybolts were 20pts/unit or 5pts for a single model IIRC. And back then Strikes were 20pts, Terminators were 40pts, Paladins were 55pts. It was usually more efficient to upgrade a squad with psybolt than to buy another body.

It gave all Bolters, Assault Cannons, & Autocannons +1S

Which gave Rifledreads S8. Huge. Combined with no Hull Points/Wounds and all GK vehicles ignoring shaken/stunned. Rifledreads were hard to stop

Stormbolters killed T3 5+ on 2s no save
Razorbacks could have S6 Heavybolters. Wounding T4 on 2s.

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

Karol wrote:

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

No we couldn't take Autocannons/Heavybolters on infantry in 5e. Those were only options for our vehicles (like they are now)
Rifledread is just a gamer name for a Dreadnought with two Autocannon arms

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

DG are top teir. It's odd that it's their mech that is strong but it is some of the best mech in the game. Mainly due to 5++/5+++ . I'm not talking about soup man. I'm talking about the codex on it's own. Plus you gotta get it though your head - if it is being taken as an ingredient in soup - it is overall the best choice (top teir).

Loafing wrote:

Karol wrote:

Damn that had to be really cool stuff. Didn't knew GK could take autocannons and hvy bolters, maybe GW is going to bring those back. Am assuming the rifledread is some sort of dread that is no longer there, or is it just a regular dread with a different name? Seems like GK were a nice army in 5th ed.

I would dig me some paladins armed with an autocannon, running around in 3 man squads. Flexible as a predator, but with higher str and deep strike abilities, plus they don't get shot down by melee. They could even keep the cost they have now. 9 wounds, 3 autocannons times 3 walking the table alongside Draigo re-rolls, would be cool.

No we couldn't take Autocannons/Heavybolters on infantry in 5e. Those were only options for our vehicles (like they are now)
Rifledread is just a gamer name for a Dreadnought with two Autocannon arms

Ok, still GK somehow lost the ability to take those two cannon dreads, they aren't in the codex. I wouldn't mind psy ammo becoming GK chapter tactic.

Man, just taking a quick look at the GK stuff... they are much weaker than they used to be in 5th edition it looks like. Back then they had Land Raiders they could assault out of, terminators and knights with strength 6 / ignore armor in melee, and Grandmasters who could instant-kill literally anything if they scratched it (admittedly this was because the Daemonhunters codex had the old RAW for force weapons). Psycannons ignored invulnerable saves. I had a 2000 point list that consisted of 3 land raiders, 20 GK, 5 GKT, and 2 Grandmasters... and it was super fun to play. I remember killing 'Nid and Ork armies outnumbering me 5 to 1. Good times.

Karol wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't Psybolt Ammo be what GK use all the time rather than a stratagem? That's always bugged me.

It was an upgrade back in 5th edition and led to 'GK' armies spamming high str shooting without bringing any/very few actual GK's.

But that was with a different wound chart and ID existing. Its a very different world now.

As someone who started in 8th. How can an GK upgrade end with GK players spaming it, but not taking any GK units. Was it possible to buy GK upgrades for other armies factions, if you declared your army to be GK, or something like that?

GK themselfs don't have any multi shot or hvy weapons to take the upgrades in the first place. +1str doesn't mean much for something like psycannon. Unless in 5th ed psycannons had like 6 shots or something.

Back then it was GK + inquisition in 1 codex.
And as someone else said you had an upgrade that give Bolter weapons, Autocannons and Assault cannons +1 str (Psybolt Ammo).

So you would take 3 dreadnoughts with 2x twin autocannons and make them str 8. Which was huge because you would instant kill T4 models.
Take some inquisitorial henchmen (3 Guardsmen at 3 points each) and buy them a Razorback with H.Bolter or Assault cannon which you made +1 str for 5 points.

So you could build a gunline out of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks
My 'GK' list that I got 10th at a GT with was roughly Inquisitor, 3 Dreadnoughts, 5 Razorbacks, 3x3 Guardsmen with Meltaguns and 2 units of Deathcult Assassins + Crusaders

(The Dreadnoughts are still in the index, the weapon options were scrapped for the codex because only FW makes the arms for it.)

Karol wrote:

Ok, still GK somehow lost the ability to take those two cannon dreads, they aren't in the codex. I wouldn't mind psy ammo becoming GK chapter tactic.

Except we haven't. The second autocannon arm is in the Index. Which is still usable for wargear.

(Second Autocannon arm was Forgeworld. Codex options are now to match the options in the plastic kits*)

* except when it's not.

Yep, but it is also ass because it isn't STR 8, so I wouldn't bother with it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

DG are top teir. It's odd that it's their mech that is strong but it is some of the best mech in the game. Mainly due to 5++/5+++ . I'm not talking about soup man. I'm talking about the codex on it's own. Plus you gotta get it though your head - if it is being taken as an ingredient in soup - it is overall the best choice (top teir).

LOL. Outside of Spitter Drones and PBC (which will no doubt get an increase in CA) - what units do you think make up Top Tier? Mono DG has very little answer for IK spam for starters - please tell me, how will DG dominate the meta as Top Tier?

You have no idea at all. DG have a couple units which are only taken because they synergise with Nurgle Soup.

Thing is some point increases are moot.

For example I run a PBC and 2 units of plague marines. If a crawler goes up 10 (or even 20)and marines go down 2ppm I actually have 10 more points freed up(or break even)

But I know most people don't use plague marines so whatever

I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

I'm curious what your normal army looks like? Cause 5 points a model for most infantry is a pretty significant drop.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Thing is some point increases are moot.

For example I run a PBC and 2 units of plague marines. If a crawler goes up 10 (or even 20)and marines go down 2ppm I actually have 10 more points freed up(or break even)

But I know most people don't use plague marines so whatever

Given the noise GW has made about Grey Knights points changes, it's reasonable to expect the differences to be more significant and reductive across the board.

What happens with your PMs when the change is -3ppm and -40 on the PBC?

-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

True, but that comment was really just inviting comparison.

If GK are the winner in cost changes, as GW claims, the reductions would have to be substantial.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

I'm curious what your normal army looks like? Cause 5 points a model for most infantry is a pretty significant drop.

I run draigo, unit of termintors, a unit of paladins and a unit of strikes and a nemezi dread knight. But even if my army was just strike they are 21 pts each without any hvy weapon in squad or transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
-3 pts on Plague Marines might actually be insane. At that cost you could probably just buy naked squads to sit on objectives and be extremely inefficient to remove.

yes. That is probablly true. But plague marines have good rules or at least fun ones to use, their stuff just costs too much to see play. most GK if it droped 1-3 pts would still be bad. Lets say strikes drop 2 pts each and someone run 30 of them. That is 60pts lets say the rest of units give him another 60pts saved. That is a razorback or a dreadnought. I don't see how a single one of those suddenly turns the game in favor of GK, when they face a good army.

Karol wrote:
I counted the number of models I usually run, and even if all of them become 5pts cheaper, max the point drops give me is a bit over two termintors. I have serious doubts, if adding 2 GK termintors would fix my army. I could be wrong though.

The point drops are going to have to be to most basic units and really substential, enought for people to have one, maybe even two extra units over what they are running now. Otherwise we are just shuffling being beaten on turn 1-2, to being beaten on turn 2-3.

In the new Ork book. Mega armour nobz without wargear cost 1 point more than a naked PAGK.

I wouldn't be surprised if CA makes GK Terminators to be between 25-30 points fully kitted and Paladins to be 35-40points fully kitted.