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Loafing wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
(rumor about GK getting full smite which IMO makes total sense

I disagree.
I know it's not going to happen, but I'd have rather GKs lose Smite across the board (except Purifiers/ Librarians)

And each unit gains a "signature buff" power instead to further their role
Strikes help reduce distance for Deep Striking GK units
Interceptors get Warp Quake to further the distance enemy units can deep strike
Etc.

I worry that GK getting full smite just turns us into Loyal Thousand Sons.

I've always seen it as GKs using Psychic Powers internally (to buff themselves) while Thousand Sons use Psychic Powers externally (to cast magic missiles, aka Smite)

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

Which makes sense and fits, it helps further the damage potential between PAGKs being support and TDAGKs being the heavy hitters. GW would probably rename the power.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Holocaust has been a Psychic power for GKs since at least 3e with Codex Daemonhunters.

Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”.

GK need to bottom to top overhaul. Their rules need to be fix, and then adjust points. GKs have 2 Troops choices that are not balanced against each other, unlike regular Astartes that are. We don’t select Strikes as a cheaper/less survivable option that has this special rule we can build a list around; no, we take Strikes because 40 Bolter shots at 12” is cheaper than 20 shots from a still more expensive GKT squad. Yes, the GKT are vaguely more survivable, but not by much. Double firepower for roughly the same survivability wins out. Not a special rule to build an arm on, just firepower over survivability. Bad design.

The GMDK was the worst unit GW ever added to an army. It invalidates the NDK because it’s too good not to take. It does not have a kit, which makes it counter to GW’s own policy of discouraging kitbashes. It’s so good, the people only choice in a HQ unit not a GMDK is the Brotherhood Captain, because he’s cheap AND has a special rule. Again, bad design.

One box set of GKT builds all TDA units except for Draigo. One box set of Strikes builds all PA units. What you build is based solely on what is “good this time” rather than what is interesting to build an army off of. Another bad design choice.

Rule of One is unscalable with the GK army design.

Deep Strike restriction is counter to the GK army design.

Astartes units across the game are not correctly stat’d.

Adjusting points only shifts the problem, it doesn’t even come close to fixing it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

GKs are hard to balance because their units have too much overlap in role. Points will go a long way to fix some issues, but you realistically reach a point in which you shouldn't go any cheaper.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

Death Guard are interesting because they don't exactly have a lot of builds to use.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

You can make the connection to the real world event in the same way one may refer to Operation Overlord as D-Day. D-Day is the big name most people use, but in reality there are many d-days. Same with Holocaust, as that is just slaughter on a mass scale.

 Apple Peel wrote:
[

Same with Holocaust, as that is just slaughter on a mass scale.

Oh for feths sake.

I think GK just need a top to bottom redesign.

Take strike marines. In a world where they can deep strike (yes turn 2 - yes it can be screened, bla bla), throw out a small/full smite (or another power), shoot you with 20 stormbolter shots and then charge for 10 AP-2/d3 damage attacks how many points should they be?

Because they can't easily be 13 or so - their damage output would be brokenly good.
But at 21 points a model they are incredibly fragile. A stiff breeze gets its points back when targeting them.

I am not sure there is a sweet spot to be found here.
And what goes for Strike Marines applies to almost everything else.

Its basically the inverse Eldar problem. Balancing glass hammers is hard.

Loafing wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

those would have to be ground breaking spells though, and it would always create a utility problem, against armies that can stop you from casting. No one is going to be running super cool purifires, if all it takes to turn them in to overcosted strikes is a dispel away.

Why not keep the GK HQs as psykers, but remove the psyker option from the unit in most cases. The ancient or dread could still cast, but not a termintor or strike unit. Both would get an ability though, that buffs them somehow. And then we could play around with units. Maybe strikes are cheaper and shot more, but their ability is support only, while termintors get something more pro active like +1A .

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

Not trying to offend anyone; but as Loafing said this has been a GK named power since 3rd Edition and was used in the GK Alaric novels. And yes, I agree the power should probably be renamed to be more socially acceptable.

We aren't going to pander to easily triggered people, who really shouldn't be playing this game in the first place. That is the definition of a holocaust and it fits the power well.

Loafing wrote:
Holocaust has been a Psychic power for GKs since at least 3e with Codex Daemonhunters.

Since 2nd edition, though it wasn't exclusively a GK power back then. I remember some people thought the name was a bit dodgy even then, to the point that I was genuinely surprised they kept the name into 3rd edition.

I think anyone who claims to think of the word as only a generic term for mass-killing is being disingenuous.

Karol wrote:

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

Not even close. I play Eldar and briefly played GKs in 5-6th ed. I just feel that overall there are too many books for 40K. Some consolidation would be nice and a single =][=, GK, DW book makes perfect sense, as does a single SM Codex including BAs and DAs.

Inventing "new" units just to maximize boxset sales may be a good business decision, but it isn't always best for the game.
In the case of GKs, GW "invented" Paladins just to have 2 units for the Terminator box to be able to make. This minimizes the chance that the box won't sell because at least 1 build might consistently be viable. They easily could have just made the box make JUST Terminators, but make Terminator rule good on their own.

Same for PAGKs. They could have been a dual kit of Strikes + some special, but GW got greedy and "invented" an Elite, FA and Heavy unit for the kit to build. But they didn't actually flesh out the rules properly for all to be viable options. 1 particular build will always be the obvious "winner" and all point changes will do is alter which unit that it.
If you built your unit as X because X was good, be prepared to Y to be the new hotness, either encouraging you to buy another box, or chop up and rebuild your existing models to be Y

-

Tyel wrote:
I think GK just need a top to bottom redesign.

Take strike marines. In a world where they can deep strike (yes turn 2 - yes it can be screened, bla bla), throw out a small/full smite (or another power), shoot you with 20 stormbolter shots and then charge for 10 AP-2/d3 damage attacks how many points should they be?

Because they can't easily be 13 or so - their damage output would be brokenly good.
But at 21 points a model they are incredibly fragile. A stiff breeze gets its points back when targeting them.

I am not sure there is a sweet spot to be found here.
And what goes for Strike Marines applies to almost everything else.

Its basically the inverse Eldar problem. Balancing glass hammers is hard.

I agree that an overhaul could do GK some good, and maybe that means removing deep striking from PA units other than Interceptors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Loafing wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Remember when GKT were better than Paladins because of how cheap they were, only for GW reverse it due to a single point adjustment? They can’t balance GK via points, they can only shift which units are “good right now”

Because *all* GK units fill the same role. Midrange with force weapon. Which means they all compete against one another.

GW needs to give each unit a role.

(It's why I'd recommend each GK unit gets a signature power instead of Smite.)

those would have to be ground breaking spells though, and it would always create a utility problem, against armies that can stop you from casting. No one is going to be running super cool purifires, if all it takes to turn them in to overcosted strikes is a dispel away.

Why not keep the GK HQs as psykers, but remove the psyker option from the unit in most cases. The ancient or dread could still cast, but not a termintor or strike unit. Both would get an ability though, that buffs them somehow. And then we could play around with units. Maybe strikes are cheaper and shot more, but their ability is support only, while termintors get something more pro active like +1A .

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

I don't think removing psyker from PA units without giving them some kind of buff or aura would work out well though. I mean it's the main reason these children were chosen to become GK, their psyker potential...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Karol wrote:

IMO, units like "Paladins" and "Purifiers" should never have existed. But GK needed to the milk the kit for unit options so that players would buy them.
Preferably, GKs should have remained a limited force of just PAGKs and Termies, sometimes lead by an Inquisitor.
GKs and Deathwatch really should have been in the same book with Inquisitor units. Still separate forces, but in the same book with fewer, but more defined, options.

Let me guess you are a jaded inquisitorial player, who is not as much about fixing GK or making people play DW, but loading them up in to an inqusitorial codex you would want to get?

Not even close. I play Eldar and briefly played GKs in 5-6th ed. I just feel that overall there are too many books for 40K. Some consolidation would be nice and a single =][=, GK, DW book makes perfect sense, as does a single SM Codex including BAs and DAs.

Inventing "new" units just to maximize boxset sales may be a good business decision, but it isn't always best for the game.
In the case of GKs, GW "invented" Paladins just to have 2 units for the Terminator box to be able to make. This minimizes the chance that the box won't sell because at least 1 build might consistently be viable. They easily could have just made the box make JUST Terminators, but make Terminator rule good on their own.

Same for PAGKs. They could have been a dual kit of Strikes + some special, but GW got greedy and "invented" an Elite, FA and Heavy unit for the kit to build. But they didn't actually flesh out the rules properly for all to be viable options. 1 particular build will always be the obvious "winner" and all point changes will do is alter which unit that it.
If you built your unit as X because X was good, be prepared to Y to be the new hotness, either encouraging you to buy another box, or chop up and rebuild your existing models to be Y

-

I agree on most of these points. I've never personally liked Purifiers and their lore is sub-standard at best. "We're more 'pure' then the rest of the Emperor's 'purest' " just dumb.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

I would be okay with this too. Seems very fluffy and could have a nice impact in the game as well. As long as Terminators/Paladins get Holocaust; seems like a signature power for them in the novels.

What the hell man, holocaust really?

It'd be an awkward one to use if you were playing against a Jewish person...

I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

They were pretty decent when turn 1 DS was a thing. Also - the Storm Raven nerf really hurt the GK.

Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I feel like if they gave GK the ability to deep strike turn 1, that would help too. I mean, that's kind of GK's big shtick.

And maybe being able to target their smites? That would be a neat tactic. Not v. characters, but maybe be able to choose a target for smite, instead of simply the closest. Again, because they're super-good psykers.

Targeted Smite is an interesting idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

Agreed about the overkill.

2nd player deep striking is an interesting idea too, though that's more of a game changer then specifically fixing GKs

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, preventing any units from arriving T1 was overkill IMO. Extending the arrival to outside 12" of enemies, or even limiting the number of units to half rounding down would have been better.
Half rounding down would mean that if you only have 1 unit dropping in, you'd have to wait until turn 2. But if you have 2 units, 1 can arrive turn 1.
This would have stopped a lot of the Alpha strike abuse, while still making GKs viable to drop in SOME of their units T1.

Alternately, the Beta Reserve rule could have been changed to not allow units to arrive in the 1st PLAYER turn. Going first has always been an advantage, but if the 1st player cannot bring in units, but 2nd player CAN on T1, that shifts the balance quite well.
This would allow the player who goes first to lay down some fire on the opponent's units that had to deploy, but the player who goes 2nd can then decide how best to respond, instead of having to endure TWO whole rounds of shooting before their Reserves arrive.

Still not ideal since "Beta-strikes" might be the new hotness, but IMO far better than the current model. A 'beta-strike' isn't as bad when 1st palyer can at least play a round against at least half the 2nd players army before the 'beta-strike'. Far better than an Alpha strike in which the 2nd player get NO action before it happens

-

A decent portion of that also comes down to terrain. Something that can't really be controlled.

GK's main problem is an old fundamental problem.

They are more expensive then marines and die as easily.
(and thats before getting into the problem that marines themselves are not good atm).
Either they need to be more survivable then marines (which is what GW did right with Custodes) or they need to not be more expensive (like lose the hilariously expensive and mostly useless melee weapons)

The upcoming point reduction isn't going to help GK's unless they are making basic Grey Knights like 15 points instead of 21.

 Ordana wrote:
GK's main problem is an old fundamental problem.

They are more expensive then marines and die as easily.
(and thats before getting into the problem that marines themselves are not good atm).
Either they need to be more survivable then marines (which is what GW did right with Custodes) or they need to not be more expensive (like lose the hilariously expensive and mostly useless melee weapons)

The upcoming point reduction isn't going to help GK's unless they are making basic Grey Knights like 15 points instead of 21.

I'd like to see GK in between Custodes and regular Marines when it comes to survivability. Maybe base PAGK moving to 2 wounds, Terminators moving to 3 with Paladins moving to 4?

In the fluff, GK train for 50 years before given their first set of powered armor; they have to be tougher, mentaly and physically, then normal marines.

Here are my ideas from a post I made ages ago.

I have played several styles of Grey Knight list in 8th, they range from pretty lousy to comedically uncompetitive. Currently play footslogging paladins (since deep strike nerf)with Las/ML ven dread support, which does surprisingly ok.

I don't think points reductions are the way to go in most cases, GK sit at about the right point level in my opinion, instead they need some characterful cool rules to bring them up to the power level of other armies, bringing back some of the old rules they had in the past to give the army more flavour.

Terminators should be T5, this should apply to all terminator units not just GK, because terminators are pretty much junk across the board. 5+ to wound from standard small arms S4 and S10 needed to get down to 2+ to wound would make a huge difference. And actually make terminators a fair bit better. I've been saying this for 5 editions, T4 just isn't that durable. GK TDA wouldn't need much of points drop if any at T5 with some of the added stuff I'll mention below.

Give all units 2 cast and deny 1 at the very least, so they can cast utility powers depending on situation.

Add a second psychic tree available to all GK units and exempt from psychic focus.

This table would include 3 utility powers and would be auto included for all GK, as in no need to select these powers.

- Hammerhand (same as current power)
- Sanctuary (same as current power)
- Psybolt Ammunition (instead of current strat)

I thought about gate for this list, but a whole army gating each turn would be stupidly broken, these 3 powers i think represent the cornerstone of GKs psychic ability.

Bring back true grit, GK can fire storm bolters as if they were pistols in CC. This is more flavourful than a straight buff to number of attacks, combined with psybolt as a power it would provide some much needed killing power which GK sorely lack.

Bring back The Aegis , 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds (paladins some & characters could get a 5+).

Bring back the shrouding -1 to hit outside 18", could be a little op, if so make it an AOE psychic power which could replace one of the junk powers in current table.

Would really prefer to see something cool like this in the next codex rather than simple points drops.

 Trickstick wrote:

Karol wrote:
Sisters and imperial saints do stuff like desoloving demons, by looking at them. And most of them are no where as pure, or knowladgable about chaos as a single GK.
The sole existance of GK should make demons blink out of existance when faced by GK.

GKs only get sent against the worst daemon incursions though. The effects of the warp spilling into the materium in such large amounts probably anchors the daemons somewhat, counteracting the effect of the GKs.

Why are they forcing a narative stratagem in matches play? All the other regenerating/unit generating stratagems only work in narrative, why this one?

GK suffer the same problem that all marines have had since I started in 5th. The game has become increasingly deadly, and no matter how much extra rules or offensive output you give a MEQ body, T4 and 3+ is a joke at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Absolutely agree, Grey Knights needs rules changes, not point changes, make them the elites they are supposed to be not some quantity power armor spam idiots with a chip on their shoulder whenever the word "Daemons" is spoken.

This is the fate of the early codex.
Maybe, if GW had released the codices of GK and Daemons at the same time, the situation would have been better.

Kind of like Space marines (Bottom Tier) and Deathgaurd(Top Tier)?

DG are by no means top tier

A couple units from that codex to serve as ingredients in Nurgle Soup - sure (even then I wouldn't class that as top tier)

A list with Death Guard terminators in it won a major once so now Xeno thinks the codex is overpowered.