Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

I'd lose both - mostly because they still feel like late arrivals to me (2E player who had a two decade break from the arrival of 3E) and they still don't feel part of the 40k universe from my perspective.


That said, I like there being a no melee army (though IG are primarily this too) because it makes in a sci fi context. On the other hand, it's a sci fantasty context with wall-to-wall farcical weaponry on all fronts so who cares?

nfe wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

I'd lose both - mostly because they still feel like late arrivals to me (2E player who had a two decade break from the arrival of 3E) and they still don't feel part of the 40k universe from my perspective.


That said, I like there being a no melee army (though IG are primarily this too) because it makes in a sci fi context. On the other hand, it's a sci fantasty context with wall-to-wall farcical weaponry on all fronts so who cares?

Me too, they've never seemed like real armies to me, only the 2nd edition armies will ever be true armies.

Dark eldar. I just hate the more than any other faction.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

I'd lose both - mostly because they still feel like late arrivals to me (2E player who had a two decade break from the arrival of 3E) and they still don't feel part of the 40k universe from my perspective.


That said, I like there being a no melee army (though IG are primarily this too) because it makes in a sci fi context. On the other hand, it's a sci fantasty context with wall-to-wall farcical weaponry on all fronts so who cares?

Me too, they've never seemed like real armies to me, only the 2nd edition armies will ever be true armies.

Oh wow .. Like THAT is it ? well how about we get rid of Chaos in it's entirety? I mean honestly, what has Chaos ever done for us ?

other than opening the warp and letting the rabid feral cats daemons in.

at Least Necrons want something to happen rather than just tear it all down 'cuz we're still angry at Dad!'

I would get rid of all the small imperial fractions (deathwatch, custodes, sisters of silence, inquisition, etc) and just role them into one book, with singular detachments allowing you to take a unit of them in your army.


They make no sense to be big major armies. I like Tau and Necrons as i feel they actually add more to the game than any more imperial fractions do.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

I'd lose both - mostly because they still feel like late arrivals to me (2E player who had a two decade break from the arrival of 3E) and they still don't feel part of the 40k universe from my perspective.


That said, I like there being a no melee army (though IG are primarily this too) because it makes in a sci fi context. On the other hand, it's a sci fantasty context with wall-to-wall farcical weaponry on all fronts so who cares?

Me too, they've never seemed like real armies to me, only the 2nd edition armies will ever be true armies.

Erm... Except Necrons got their first rules and models in late 2nd Edition? wtf? But yeah, awesome Idea. Why not Squat all non-human armies at once tho? It's not like this game needs racial diversity

Marines!

It would shake the setting up and advance the lore; it would ease GW off the teat of supporting a single army above all others; it would make GW find a new identity; it would pave the way for Tyranids to take their rightful place in the universe!

Sisters of battle, battle nuns in sexy cosplay have no place in 40k; wish they stay irrelevant forever.

Special snowflake marines of assorted random chapters. Reds, blues, greys, greens, blacks, silvers. Makes no difference and they can all be covered under the same rules just as they once were. Their minor 'organizational' differences can be spanned by general unit types in a single book

Too easy: Ultramarines.

I can't stand them since 3rd edition. Poster boys with all the GW's attention and IMHO not even good looking, not in the past not now with the ugly primaris. And if they're not auto-winning tournaments, there's an horde of ultramarine players that whines about how bad their army is. Ironically it's a faction that is still decent-average on the table and I'd like it to bite the dust, while many SM players already think that they're already biting the dust

I also strongly dislike chaos daemons but basically because I feel they're a fantasy army and don't belong to 40k.

Pure shooting armies also deserve to bite the dust since they're boring as hell, but nothing can be at ultramarines levels of hate from my perspective

Grey Knights for me.

Speaking purely from a lore faction standpoint (so not factoring in the multitudes of divisions that are in the game, such as different Chapters, Warbands, etc etc), I'd say the faction that doesn't really need to exist in lore is the Sisters of Silence (in 40k). I just feel that their "thing" is done by the Grey Knights and/or Sisters of Battle just fine.

I'd also say the Squats don't really need to be a thing, if they even are.

For the game, (and still not talking about sub-factions), I think that Rogue Traders and Inquisition should definitely be gone. Save that for Kill Team or RPGs, not for battles. At the most, I'd have Rogue Traders/Inquisitors able to be taken as an auxiliary on their own, who gets their own Warlord Trait as well as the main Warlord. No retinues, no army exclusive to them.

Not an easy question...

Tabletop wise? T'au, because when you face them, you fight either against static gunline or static gunline. Rarely something else. Oh, and I forgot absolute Tsunami of pesky drones that soak up all the damage and the extremely OP stuff FW gave them.

Lore wise? Inquisition, because bunch of overly zealous people who can do literally anything and get away with it is always a good idea. They fit the setting, but I really don't like them for things they did and can do.

Aesthetic wise? Skitarii. While half of their model range looks good, the other half is absolutely hideous. I'm looking at you, Ironstriders, Castellan Robots, Sicarians and... oh well... Knights...

Something from Imperium. Take anything. There are just too many Imperium factions. I'd say Inquisition. And I don't mean SoB/GK/Deathwatch necessarily, but "real" Inquisition. Guilliman declares order 66 against all Inquisitors and that faction is gone. Ruleswize it's already nearly nonexistant and with GWs no models/no rules there'll never be a proper Inquisition codex with cool custom Inquisitors, so we can as well get rid of them. Would be cool if that was followed up by SoB/GK, Deathwatch, Templars and others going renegade against Guillimans Imperium.

Aesthetic, fluff, and gameplay, the T'au.

Never a fun game. I find their suits and stupid names annoying. Players always get their rules wrong.

Ap-2 on your basic gun? Mind if I check your codex?

Imperial Knights. They could be dropped from the fluff entirely without much impact and an army of just superheavies was never a good idea.

Space Wolves and Grey Knights can go imo.

Space Wolves fluff is just ridiculous. Seriously. It's Wolf gak riding on a Wolf. I hate this Chapter. Just go and count the word "Wolf" in their Codex for funsies. Dont forget to include "wolf" in foreign languages. Overwolf Wolf Wulf-Wolf, Son of Wolf Wolf-Wolf riding his Wolf to battle while swinging the Sword of Wolves. It is that bad.

I like the looks and of the Grey Knights. But thats about it. Their lore is bad and an army of dedicated demonhunters should only hunt demons period. There is just no place for them in the game.

 Big Mac wrote:
Sisters of battle, battle nuns in sexy cosplay have no place in 40k; wish they stay irrelevant forever.

They're quite an old faction with established reasons for being what they are which have been fleshed out ahead of a lot of the range, rather than being backwritten in after the fact.

Anyhow, if a faction had to go......Dark Eldar and Eldar, wrap them up into Ynarri going forward. Necron S cannot be dropped as their full interactions with the Mechanicum etc haven't been finished off, though I'd agree they need a decent rewrite to make them an actual threat as opposed to the tomb kings in space direction that's happened. Even a small group of Sisters too down a Necron ship in one novel.......

Everything <Imperium> that isn't Astartes, Guard/Navy, Mechanicus, Knights or Sororitas needs to [Expletive Deleted] off and keep [Expletive Deleted] off until they [Expletive Deleted] off so far that they come back, at which point they can [Expletive Deleted] off again.

Then Inquisitors and Assassins get to go into an Agents of the Imperium book. Anybody mentioning Sisters of Silence or Custodes again gets beat to death with their own shoes,

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Speaking purely from a lore faction standpoint (so not factoring in the multitudes of divisions that are in the game, such as different Chapters, Warbands, etc etc), I'd say the faction that doesn't really need to exist in lore is the Sisters of Silence (in 40k). I just feel that their "thing" is done by the Grey Knights and/or Sisters of Battle just fine.

I'd also say the Squats don't really need to be a thing, if they even are.

For the game, (and still not talking about sub-factions), I think that Rogue Traders and Inquisition should definitely be gone. Save that for Kill Team or RPGs, not for battles. At the most, I'd have Rogue Traders/Inquisitors able to be taken as an auxiliary on their own, who gets their own Warlord Trait as well as the main Warlord. No retinues, no army exclusive to them.

I agree with you the Sister of Silence. they can exist in 30K, but in 40K they are completely irrelevent. They should have disapeered following the Horus Heresy. In the same fashion Custodians should only be a background faction or even all dead too and replaced by an Imperial Fist Company, or a Sister of Battle Holy Order. Inquisitors and Rogue Traders should be a Kill Team faction only indeed or taken as axiliaries. The Inquisition doesn't have armies of henchmen they are basically "super cops and investigators" not generals.

I do think that some Space Marine subfactions could be trimmed (Dark and Blood Angels especially) and rolled back into the Space Marine main book. As a rule, I would never remove a xenos faction. The idea of elliminating one of them makes the 40K univers feels more empty (just humans fighting other humans and once in a while an elf or an orc is pretty boring). In fact, I think we need more xenos factions.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Everything <Imperium> that isn't Astartes, Guard/Navy, Mechanicus, Knights or Sororitas needs to [Expletive Deleted] off and keep [Expletive Deleted] off until they [Expletive Deleted] off so far that they come back, at which point they can [Expletive Deleted] off again.

Then Inquisitors and Assassins get to go into an Agents of the Imperium book. Anybody mentioning Sisters of Silence or Custodes again gets beat to death with their own shoes,

THIS MAN SPEAKS TRUTH.
Also...Knights - A Superheavy only army in 40k is a terrible idea balance wise. They contribute nothing to lore.

 iGuy91 wrote:
THIS MAN SPEAKS TRUTH.
Also...Knights - A Superheavy only army in 40k is a terrible idea balance wise. They contribute nothing to lore.

Make them the Lord of War choice of a Mechanicus army and lets move on. An army that doesn't have mostly infantry is rather stupid in a game where all other armies are mostly infantry.

Bye bye Custodes.

IG and Daemons can go home until they stop pretending they're in a WWII or Fantasy game. Suck it up and put on your silver body suit already. Orks at least try to embrace their Mad Max in space thing.

Lore wise I think most armies are fine, even Tau. Not every faction has to be a galaxy spanning power/threat for me.

Game wise, cut out all the snowflake factions that should never have been stand alone/included in a skirmish game like Custodes, Harelquins, Grey Knights. Cut down the ridiculous amount of special marine armies and above all cut knights. Superheavies should not be in a game focused on TAC lists, esoecially not a whole army of them.

I would not Squat any existing army, especially if there are existing Plastic models for them (sorry sisters)

I would, however, consolidate quite a few
Blood Angels and Dark Angels may have plenty of unique units to merit being separate from the main Marine Codex, but they could easily be combined, with 2 sets of traits, relic, and Statagems and STILL have less rules content/unit entries than the main Marine Codex.
#AngelsofDeathcodex

I'd also consolidate GKs, DW, Sisters, Inquisitors and Assassins into a single Agents of the Imperium codex.
Not only do these factions have smaller ranges, but they are tied together by the Inquisition.

Finally, I'd reconsolidate Harlequins back into both CWE and DE Codices. Alternatively, you could release a Ynnari/Harlequin codex that replaces the Harlie book and adds that neither are meant to be stand-alone forces and units MUST be added to CWE or DE detachments that have already met the detachment requirements with CWE or DE units.
They would not affect the CWE or DE faction trait and the Ynnari Characters would now just provide SfD as an Aura, rather than granting the Ynnari Keyword/SfD to Ynnari units.

-

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Everything <Imperium> that isn't Astartes, Guard/Navy, Mechanicus, Knights or Sororitas needs to [Expletive Deleted] off and keep [Expletive Deleted] off until they [Expletive Deleted] off so far that they come back, at which point they can [Expletive Deleted] off again.

Then Inquisitors and Assassins get to go into an Agents of the Imperium book. Anybody mentioning Sisters of Silence or Custodes again gets beat to death with their own shoes,

Putting inquisitors, assassins, and possibly rogue traders into one Imperial Agents codex would be baller. Make them like Dark Eldar perhaps with multiple vanguard detachments giving bonus CP. Silent Sisters would be fine if Culexus Assassin's and Hereticus Inquisitors weren't just "you but better," or if they were an elites choice (either squad or character) in an imperial Agents codex. As an army they're pointless and there's not much need for them lore-wise.

T'au, because as someone who played Dark Eldar and Space Wolves at that time, made me super salty these new NobleBright Mechas got two codexes in the time we got NONE.

As much as I doubt T'au would every get dropped (too popular of a range), from a fluff standpoint, they would probably the easiest to drop.
Their empire is small, after all, and with no ties to either Imperium or Chaos, nor anything significantly tying them to any other major Xenos T'au could be destroyed in some major campaign.

-

I would drop T’au. They just aren’t that interesting. They should have been developed as a human, or primarily human with Xenos allies, non-Imperium faction.

Space Marines

they are being replaced anyway.

Roll em all into one dex, drop all the flanderised crap and get on with it.

Tau might have to go. Agree with all the little imperial ones being rolled up together. And chuck grey knights in there too. Make them a small elite add on rather than an army. And roll all the marine chapters into one book.

Id say Tau as well.
Its really dull and the army it self is incredibility redundant.

now remove them and replace them with a new xeno empire with the existing tau models but add a ton of new ones that have all sorts of cool units like pyskers melee, monsters and the like and id be down.

but if i had my way id say remove the LOW and Titanic models. send them back to Apoc only.

Custards, followed by Grey Knights.

Maybe make a return as part of a collection of minor Imperial forces, but definitely not separately--at least in the case of Custodes.

Oh, this is easy; kill off the dog humping, flea-bitten furfag Space wolves. They think they’re better than everyone else, they think they’re special, and they think they’re above the rules. Given their bungled handling of the TKSons, and their attitude about the whole situation, they deserve to be crushed.

Vanilla Chaos Marines.

I'd destroy the concept and then move towards a Renegades concept and a Legions of Old concept.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Oh, this is easy; kill off the dog humping, flea-bitten furfag Space wolves. They think they’re better than everyone else, they think they’re special, and they think they’re above the rules. Given their bungled handling of the TKSons, and their attitude about the whole situation, they deserve to be crushed.

I'd go with that - then have a new "old School" Wolves Chapter.

This is what I would do if I had magical powers and could tinker with the faction mix.

This would be my lineup.

1. Codex Adeptes Astartes - This book would encompass all loyal Space Marine Chapters, including Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves but excluding Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Chapter Tactics would be reworked to restrict access to certain units. "This unit may only be included in a Space Wolves detachment."
2. Codex Astra Militarum - This book would encompass all existing Imperial Guard units.
3. Codex Adeptes Mechanicus - This book would include all AdMech units and would include a "Chapter Tactic" for one forge world that grants the Chaos keyword, allowing for Dark Mechanicum builds. Imperial Knights go in here.
4. Codex Imperial Agents - This book would include everything else Imperial. Unlocking Deathwatch units would require either a Deathwatch HQ or Xenos Inquisitor. Unlocking Grey Knights units would require either a Grey Knights HQ or Malleus Inquisitor. Unlocking Sisters of Battle would require either a Sisters of Battle HQ or whatever the third kind of Inquisitor is.
5. Codex Aeldari would cover all flavors of Eldar.
6. Codex Greater Good would cover T'au, Kroot and a limited number of human auxilliary units.
7. Codex Necrons stays more or less as is, with limited allies being available with certain HQs... i.e., Trazyn opens a pokeball.
8. Codex Tyranids would cover traditional Nids as well as Genestealer Cults. The GSC section would list all relevant Astra Militarum options. They'd just have GSC keyword only and not GSC/Tyranid.
9. Codex Orks is more or less the same, but add an option to take an Aux Detachment of whichever Kultur is the mercenary crew with other armies.
10. Codex Forces of Chaos would include Heretic Astartes and Daemons. Deathguard and Thousand Sons would be handled the same way as Space Wolves, etc. above.

I don't think the faction selection is inherently bad, but I do think they're spread across way too many books. Realistically, we don't need a half dozen Codexes with a Rhino entry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
T'au, because as someone who played Dark Eldar and Space Wolves at that time, made me super salty these new NobleBright Mechas got two codexes in the time we got NONE.

Funny, I must've imagined all of the those SM codexes (that by extension modified the SW codex it was parent to) in every edition update of the game...






Love how everyone is getting salty over Tau. and still saying they don't fit. I've got some bad news fellas- 40k with Tau in it has existed for longer than 40k without Tau in it. 1987-2001 no Tau 14 years, 2001 to present with Tau- 17 years and counting.

On the one hand, I do want to say Tau. Mostly because of how GW has basically just made them the "Gundam" faction as opposed to a more "generalized scifi heavy skimmer tanks and specialized power armor" faction, and I'm just not a fan of most of their more recent background, despite having some 3k points of Tau. However, I think they're salvageable.

That said, above all others, it would probably have to be Space Wolves. I love the concept of the nordic power armored super soldier. However they suffer not only from irredeemably poorly written and directly contradictory fluff, but they've taken the wolf theme motif and run it right past the line of parody, jumped over the shark, and straight into the ground. Everything about them reads like some 13 year old's bad fanfic of their custom chapter. Everything that gets released for them just ends up looking...stupid and goofy.

I think Tau should stay. They're popular, they work differently from other factions (when done properly), and the thing is: the Eldar, humans and Necrons all had a Tau phase. They are entirely in keeping with the setting, just the main faction is the "present/waning" empire and the other xenos are the "past/remnant" empires.

Edit: this doesn't mean the Tau are right about being destined to rule the galaxy. Cracks in their manifest destiny are already showing themselves, they have serious limitations what with not having any psykers, and the galaxy is a huge and cruel place.

@Vaktathi- I agree with you that it is annoying that GW went from the Tau thinking giant robots are stupid to making giant sized versions of their three battle suits. I don't even think the design idea behind the bots are that great. If you can make a ghost kneel, why not slap Stealth field generators on Crisis Suits or Broadsides instead? Let's face it though, most people think giant robots are cooler than hover tanks and I think Tau players like us were a minority to those who wanted giant robots, even if it went against fluff.

Knights are the Gundum faction though and probably be left for AT.

Skaorn wrote:
@Vaktathi- I agree with you that it is annoying that GW went from the Tau thinking giant robots are stupid to making giant sized versions of their three battle suits. I don't even think the design idea behind the bots are that great. If you can make a ghost kneel, why not slap Stealth field generators on Crisis Suits or Broadsides instead? Let's face it though, most people think giant robots are cooler than hover tanks and I think Tau players like us were a minority to those who wanted giant robots, even if it went against fluff.

Hovertanks are also a bit harder to work into lists given the points costs and the size of the models proper.

Fluffwise, it's not unbelievable that the stealth field generator and the control suite for the drones(remember: it's a two part system, not just a stealth field) might not be able to get miniaturized enough for Crisis Suits or Broadsides. Or it might be that they wanted something larger that can pack a heavy punch to range ahead with Stealth Teams and Pathfinders.

Speaking for myself: I'm not too fussed by the addition of the Riptide and Ghostkeel. Yeah, we could have gotten some kind of tank or aircraft...but playability and space on the table needs to be factored in. A Riptide or Ghostkeel takes up a bit less space than a tank or aircraft IMO.

Space Marines - all of them! They attract too many low-skill whiners

(not entirely facetious)

Ynnari

Or least shift them down to a specialist detachment, with the three HQ's doing varying things and Soulburst being a stratagem

In my view picking a faction without a codex to be dropped is a cop out and saying a faction should be rolled into another or replaced is not actually destroying it.

Being a smartass aside, I would second Tau as the full army to be dropped (after Imperial Knights IMO) for reasons others have described pretty well; they do not occupy an essential place in the fluff, the army style (all shooting, all the time) is not fun on the table as compared other concepts, and their aesthetic fits in the least with the 40k setting.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That said, above all others, it would probably have to be Space Wolves. I love the concept of the nordic power armored super soldier. However they suffer not only from irredeemably poorly written and directly contradictory fluff, but they've taken the wolf theme motif and run it right past the line of parody, jumped over the shark, and straight into the ground. Everything about them reads like some 13 year old's bad fanfic of their custom chapter. Everything that gets released for them just ends up looking...stupid and goofy.

Say what?

I would get rid of Tau, hands down.

The Tau hate is almost as ridic as the Woofs models

Astra Militarum.

Just go and play Bolt Action or something, if you're into that. Get out of my Space Wizards vs. Bug-Alien-Swarms setting!!

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Astra Militarum.

Imperial Guard are the faction that "grounds" 40k and prevents it from being more of a full-on parody than it is becoming. Take away the IG, and there's no baseline, no center.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Astra Militarum.

Imperial Guard are the faction that "grounds" 40k and prevents it from being more of a full-on parody than it is becoming. Take away the IG, and there's no baseline, no center.

Nah. Imperial Guard is just a remnant of a cheap attempt by GW to leech over some players from historical wargaming clubs in the 80s or so, that's just a blight on the IP in general.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The Tau hate is almost as ridic as the Woofs models

For me it's that Space Wolves are intertwined in the fluff with numerous other factions and important events; they would have to be replaced with another legion-chapter with a similar enough temperament to have done what they did instead (or retcon/rewrite HUGE sections of fluff). Far more effective to reform the fluff and make it more reasonable and reform the line to reign in certain elements. The central idea of 'space marines but savage' is not a bad one, better than Blood Angels 'space marines but emo vampires' IMO. Plus the core of the line; infantry, dreadnought, and a lot of the characters look fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Astra Militarum.

Imperial Guard are the faction that "grounds" 40k and prevents it from being more of a full-on parody than it is becoming. Take away the IG, and there's no baseline, no center.

Nah. Imperial Guard is just a remnant of a cheap attempt by GW to leech over some players from historical wargaming clubs in the 80s or so, that's just a blight on the IP in general.

I really doubt that. John has the right idea of them grounding the setting. They are also a swarm army that is not biological (unlike every other sci-fi setting where the bug faction is the only swarm army), is supposed to be the heavy shooting army of the setting (looking at you Tau) and fills a niche as the 'tank army'.

Corsairs. Chaos Astartes Legions need books down to five codexes (Vanillia, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children). Space Marines down to five as well (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vanilla, Blood Angels... oh wait there are only 5).

I would condense all loyalist marine armies into one book and all traitor marine armies into another.

40K has a ludicrous number of marine factions, It is boring as hell.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Nah. Imperial Guard is just a remnant of a cheap attempt by GW to leech over some players from historical wargaming clubs in the 80s or so, that's just a blight on the IP in general.

Only if you insist on making them so.

Of all the factions in 40k, the Imperial Guard is by far the most diverse in terms of look and feel within its background. You can have an army of gothic religious lunatic doomsday fanatics fighting alongside junglefighting aircav supported by lawrence of arabia-esque guerilla fighters and gearpunk trench fighters and cyberpunk drug crazed ganger conscripts.

The breadth and range of Guard regiment variation is endless. Take any human faction concept/culture from any time or setting and you can make it work within the Imperial Guard as long as it doesn't rely on power armor or hovertanks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Say what?

Indeed

Skaorn wrote:@Vaktathi- I agree with you that it is annoying that GW went from the Tau thinking giant robots are stupid to making giant sized versions of their three battle suits. I don't even think the design idea behind the bots are that great. If you can make a ghost kneel, why not slap Stealth field generators on Crisis Suits or Broadsides instead? Let's face it though, most people think giant robots are cooler than hover tanks and I think Tau players like us were a minority to those who wanted giant robots, even if it went against fluff.

Knights are the Gundum faction though and probably be left for AT.

Yeah, I'm usually into the giant robot stuff and I agree, the Tau big bots just dont seem all that great conceptually. I forgot about Knights for the purposes of this thread. I really like their place in the background between Titans and conventional forces, but their inclusion as a distinct and cohesive army for normal play as a force unto themselves was a mistake and forced the scale of the game upwards in a manner that really devalues stuff like basic infantry.

@Thread

Sometime I feel alone in loving Tau, their place in the fluff and their giant suits. I think they look awesome. I could do with more Kroot and have them be decent in CC again for some extra flexibility in gameplay.

Daemons. I don't like them, they feel out of place, and they're kind of boring.

After that, I guess, as a group [Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Death Guard, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons]. There doesn't really need to be 4 Loyalist and 3 Chaos basically-the-same codecies.


Deathwatch, Sisters, and Grey Knights should also be consolidated as the Inquisition, as an honorable mention.

Excellent! When nobody mentions Militarum Tempestus explicitly and we can survive by our unfortunate rolling-into the IG codex.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Excellent! When nobody mentions Militarum Tempestus explicitly and we can survive by our unfortunate rolling-into the IG codex.

I mean, you were your own thing for less than an edition, and everything was replicated in our book too. It also wasn't like they were new at the time either; they were a single IG auxiliary unit that they decided to make a 5-unit codex consisting entirely of a tiny selection of IG models for a short blip in time.

Ideally, I wouldn't want to squat any faction, but chances are Space Wolves would be on my "purge" list due to how flanderized they are in the fluff at this point and they may as well by called "Space Hypocrites" rather than wolves given how many damn rules they break "cause reasons" with little to no drawbacks.

I would not get rid of Space Wolves, but I'd love to press the reset button on them. Wolfy-wolf-wolf-ice-murder-wolf is not a theme.

Like others, Tau and Necrons still feel new to me. At least Necrons have been worked into the Eldar lore a bit though. Despite their newness, I no longer want to get rid of Tau, but I feel like they need to have something to make them more interesting. They just don't feel as embedded in the lore as almost everything else. Only Tyranids seem similarly unembedded.

 Fifty wrote:
I would not get rid of Space Wolves, but I'd love to press the reset button on them. Wolfy-wolf-wolf-ice-murder-wolf is not a theme.

Like others, Tau and Necrons still feel new to me. At least Necrons have been worked into the Eldar lore a bit though. Despite their newness, I no longer want to get rid of Tau, but I feel like they need to have something to make them more interesting. They just don't feel as embedded in the lore as almost everything else. Only Tyranids seem similarly unembedded.

Personally id love to see them go full ham on the wolf wolf frost claw but for all the other loyalest and traitors.

mostly because vanilla sucks and id love to see all the cool and unique stuff the other chapters could get. so many cool things could be done with the iron hands, sallys, sister fisters, white scars, raven guard. like throw them a bone. one unique unit or vehicle that fits their theme.

the smurfs can stay vanilla though as they have like the best range of models as well as a primearch.

I already made my list but boy the Tau hate. What exactly about them deserves so much ire? Sure they are gunliney in game, few like that. But fluffwise what exactly is the issue here. Not everything needs to be Imperium/Chaos 24/7 for me.

 Castozor wrote:
I already made my list but boy the Tau hate. What exactly about them deserves so much ire? Sure they are gunliney in game, few like that. But fluffwise what exactly is the issue here. Not everything needs to be Imperium/Chaos 24/7 for me.

Nothing wrong with them in fluff other than marysueism so far. other than general hearsay about castration and servitude (which iirc wasnt cannon and or a dark heresy thing) they are very....... boring. i just hope they set them up for some sort of significant fall like a mini men of iron or a significantly play with farsite in a sort of ideological yin yang thing. or for them to go very deep into the dark side of the greater good. genocide, coercion, exploitation and stuff to keep the empire running.


in game. everyone complains about gunlines. both guard and tau eat a lot of hate.

gunlines are horrifically uninteractive, its like you guys arent even playing the same game which is set up for both shooting moving asssaulting psykers and heros.

Tau. And purely from an artistic point of view. Shooting from a safe distance is a perfectly sound and reasonable tactic.

They look so incredibly out of place in the 40k universe. So achingly and obviously trying to be Japanese Robots of the late 70s and early 80s.

There may come a time when they seem retro-cool, but as of right now they look as ridiculous as playing a pokemon card at a poker tournament.

If the Tau appearance were developed further, brutalised and evolved to the harsh realities 40k, I feel they would be much improved. Lose some (but not all) of those clean lines and break them up with a bit more tech - adaptations that look like a desperately aggressive reaction to the forces pitted against them.

Fluff wise: Have the race overreach (again!), get their butts kicked, then come back stronger with nastier weaponry and a more belligerent appearance. Or Squat them, either would be for the greater good.

 CodeKantorBlue wrote:
Tau. And purely from an artistic point of view. Shooting from a safe distance is a perfectly sound and reasonable tactic.

They look so incredibly out of place in the 40k universe. So achingly and obviously trying to be Japanese Robots of the late 70s and early 80s.

There may come a time when they seem retro-cool, but as of right now they look as ridiculous as playing a pokemon card at a poker tournament.

If the Tau appearance were developed further, brutalised and evolved to the harsh realities 40k, I feel they would be much improved. Lose some (but not all) of those clean lines and break them up with a bit more tech - adaptations that look like a desperately aggressive reaction to the forces pitted against them.

Fluff wise: Have the race overreach (again!), get their butts kicked, then come back stronger with nastier weaponry and a more belligerent appearance. Or Squat them, either would be for the greater good.

From an artistic point of view, the idea that all armies must have the same theme and comparable aesthetic is extremely dull in my opinion. each faction should have its own unique aesthetic. When I look at Taus, they relate pretty well with Craftworld Eldar design and the two do mesh together fairly well with the exception of the battlesuits who look more Imperial.

epronovost wrote:

 CodeKantorBlue wrote:
Tau. And purely from an artistic point of view. Shooting from a safe distance is a perfectly sound and reasonable tactic.

They look so incredibly out of place in the 40k universe. So achingly and obviously trying to be Japanese Robots of the late 70s and early 80s.

There may come a time when they seem retro-cool, but as of right now they look as ridiculous as playing a pokemon card at a poker tournament.

If the Tau appearance were developed further, brutalised and evolved to the harsh realities 40k, I feel they would be much improved. Lose some (but not all) of those clean lines and break them up with a bit more tech - adaptations that look like a desperately aggressive reaction to the forces pitted against them.

Fluff wise: Have the race overreach (again!), get their butts kicked, then come back stronger with nastier weaponry and a more belligerent appearance. Or Squat them, either would be for the greater good.

From an artistic point of view, the idea that all armies must have the same theme and comparable aesthetic is extremely dull in my opinion. each faction should have its own unique aesthetic. When I look at Taus, they relate pretty well with Craftworld Eldar design and the two do mesh together fairly well with the exception of the battlesuits who look more Imperial.

I agree. its not like nids look the same as space marines, or eldar. necrons are way different from tau. but guardsmen compared to other regiments are similar because they are supposed to be. even some cross over in the imperium and chaos in general.

same with double eldars.

personally i think its a good thing tau is so ascetically unique. its hard to mistake them for anything else. same with most armies which is good game design.

 Castozor wrote:
I already made my list but boy the Tau hate. What exactly about them deserves so much ire? Sure they are gunliney in game, few like that. But fluffwise what exactly is the issue here. Not everything needs to be Imperium/Chaos 24/7 for me.

Apart from how they play, I've just never really accepted them since they were first released. To me they just don't seem to fit the general setting, whereas the other Xenos factions do. Tyranids are galaxy devouring H.R. Geiger xenomorphs. GSC are genetically infected pawns of the xenomorphs, which is an awesome idea. Orks and Eldar/Dark Eldar are fitting because 40k is fantasy in space. Necrons have had a rocky history but they tie in with the backstory and are cool thematically. Tau are a faction of naive, but ostensibly well-intentioned, anime space communists without the patent flaws that the other factions have. If they had a more explicit moral dilemma in their backstory or the way they functioned they would gel a bit more for me.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Excellent! When nobody mentions Militarum Tempestus explicitly and we can survive by our unfortunate rolling-into the IG codex.

I mean, you were your own thing for less than an edition, and everything was replicated in our book too. It also wasn't like they were new at the time either; they were a single IG auxiliary unit that they decided to make a 5-unit codex consisting entirely of a tiny selection of IG models for a short blip in time.

Codex: Stormtroopers? Yeah, that was dumb. They made much more sense as part of the IG and Inquisition.

OTOH, Codex: Knights is even fewer model kits, right? At least they're BIG!

I guess I can see how mary seu-ism runs a bit rampant in the Tau but eh, I'm fine with it since the added more sinister elements to the Ethereals. Not every faction has to be grim-dark all the time. Big reason why I chose Orks to be my first army was because there at least there was some of the humour and charm that attracted me to 40K in the first place.
As for the Gundam part, granted but I like it when not every faction is the same and (personal bias granted) I like big stompy robots.

 Fifty wrote:
I would not get rid of Space Wolves, but I'd love to press the reset button on them. Wolfy-wolf-wolf-ice-murder-wolf is not a theme.

Like others, Tau and Necrons still feel new to me. At least Necrons have been worked into the Eldar lore a bit though. Despite their newness, I no longer want to get rid of Tau, but I feel like they need to have something to make them more interesting. They just don't feel as embedded in the lore as almost everything else. Only Tyranids seem similarly unembedded.

Are you referring to he who hails from the planet Omnicide; Murderfang whose Murderlust drives him to murder enemies with his Murderclaws?

For those unaware: no, I did not make that up.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That said, above all others, it would probably have to be Space Wolves. I love the concept of the nordic power armored super soldier. However they suffer not only from irredeemably poorly written and directly contradictory fluff, but they've taken the wolf theme motif and run it right past the line of parody, jumped over the shark, and straight into the ground. Everything about them reads like some 13 year old's bad fanfic of their custom chapter. Everything that gets released for them just ends up looking...stupid and goofy.

Say what?

Am I the only one who sees that pose immediately thinks of this:

Tyranids. The biotech trope is even sillier than many other things 40K does, and that's saying something. It's a crappy way of making weapons, it's a suicidal way of making ships and it's just generally stupid to grow stuff instead of build them. Yes yes, some specialized forms might be superior to a human - but we're not a major species due to specialization, we're a major species because we're generalists. Specialization is for insects. A human can pick up anything from a pistol to a nuke and deploy it, a tyranid has whatever the Idiot Fleet gave it and if it's not useful then bad luck.

There's no universe where those things could get anywhere.

Spetulhu wrote:
Specialization is for insects.

That's kind of the idea, isn't it?

Too many to quote regarding the earlier post but I am following the brief of the thread "If a faction had to bite the dust", I do not genuinely believe the Tau should be removed. It is that the Tau has never once tempted me to open my wallet the way Marines (both Loyalist & Chaos), Orks, Genestealers, Eldar, IG and assorted other Chaos units have.

I agree uniqueness is a virtue. Unique can still also be fitting the whole theme or in the case of Tau visually (imho) generally not. Anyone who loves them for that is also not in the wrong.

Skaven in 40k would have been an awesome fit. I look at some of the Skaven figures and wish they were. I mean look at these bad boys https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Skaven-Stormfiends
Skaven not being in 40k is a cynical attempt aimed at me personally to buy into multiple franchises.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That said, above all others, it would probably have to be Space Wolves. I love the concept of the nordic power armored super soldier. However they suffer not only from irredeemably poorly written and directly contradictory fluff, but they've taken the wolf theme motif and run it right past the line of parody, jumped over the shark, and straight into the ground. Everything about them reads like some 13 year old's bad fanfic of their custom chapter. Everything that gets released for them just ends up looking...stupid and goofy.

Say what?

It's amazing how those models took me from loving Wulfen to wishing they'd never been a thing.

Drukhari for sure. Just merge them with the Ynnari. All of Commorragh goes to hell and the survivors join the Ynnari.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Excellent! When nobody mentions Militarum Tempestus explicitly and we can survive by our unfortunate rolling-into the IG codex.

I mean, you were your own thing for less than an edition, and everything was replicated in our book too. It also wasn't like they were new at the time either; they were a single IG auxiliary unit that they decided to make a 5-unit codex consisting entirely of a tiny selection of IG models for a short blip in time.

Codex: Stormtroopers? Yeah, that was dumb. They made much more sense as part of the IG and Inquisition.

OTOH, Codex: Knights is even fewer model kits, right? At least they're BIG!

I think the stormtroopers thing is a bit dated. That’s who they replaced, yes, but besides that tactic, I think they have developed more of a “special forces” thing. They get used as stormtroopers, but that shouldn’t be their whole MO.

 vipoid wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That said, above all others, it would probably have to be Space Wolves. I love the concept of the nordic power armored super soldier. However they suffer not only from irredeemably poorly written and directly contradictory fluff, but they've taken the wolf theme motif and run it right past the line of parody, jumped over the shark, and straight into the ground. Everything about them reads like some 13 year old's bad fanfic of their custom chapter. Everything that gets released for them just ends up looking...stupid and goofy.

Say what?

Am I the only one who sees that pose immediately thinks of this:

Spoiler:

Damnit Vipoid, now I can't unsee it... TOKOUENTAI!

I don't understand the point of threads like this honestly. Personal preference aside, the *ONLY* faction who's demise would impact the setting on any serious level is the Imperium of Man. Eldar/Deldar/Clowns, Orks, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, Tau, Tyranids... none of them actually have any influence on the galaxy except "they kill humans/destroy human worlds". Only Daemons seem mandatory, due to the warp being inexplicably tied with real-space.

That's just fluff though. Mechanically, I'd probably merge all marines into one codex and all factions that aren't Marines, Imperial Guard and Mechanicus into "Adeptus Auxillaries" codex.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't understand the point of threads like this honestly. Personal preference aside, the *ONLY* faction who's demise would impact the setting on any serious level is the Imperium of Man. Eldar/Deldar/Clowns, Orks, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, Tau, Tyranids... none of them actually have any influence on the galaxy except "they kill humans/destroy human worlds". Only Daemons seem mandatory, due to the warp being inexplicably tied with real-space.

That's just fluff though. Mechanically, I'd probably merge all marines into one codex and all factions that aren't Marines, Imperial Guard and Mechanicus into "Adeptus Auxillaries" codex.

As a thought experiement, I have considered a Codex Imperum in which all the factions of the Imperium would be regrouped while slashing a massive number of redundant unit choices. It was fairly interesting.

pm713 wrote:

It's amazing how those models took me from loving Wulfen to wishing they'd never been a thing.

Same. Wolves were one of my first armies. I had a couple squads of correctly colored Dark Angels in RT, but I picked up wolves in 2nd with the first codex. At the time those Wulfen came out, I was pondering bringing the Wolves back. Those absurdly terrible Wulfen models slammed my interest on all the Wolfy mcWolf-face nonsense permanently. I honestly liked them better when they were just a standard chapter like everyone else, and ultramarines were the silly ones with half-eldar and renegade leaders.

One of the marine fractions. Blood/Dark Angels or Space Wolves. Any of them could be rolled into ths marine codex.

epronovost wrote:
@Thread

Sometime I feel alone in loving Tau, their place in the fluff and their giant suits. I think they look awesome. I could do with more Kroot and have them be decent in CC again for some extra flexibility in gameplay.

I feel you, not super fond of the big suits, but Tau are still amongst my favorite factions.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Excellent! When nobody mentions Militarum Tempestus explicitly and we can survive by our unfortunate rolling-into the IG codex.

Oh no why did you had to jinx it


OT, Orks, they have nothing that interest me.

Get rid of all space marines.
It'll improve the games interest value tenfold.

Tau do seem to be in a weird place. Almost everyone I know has tried to start a Tau army and vey few of them have got past painting one or two models. They're also probably the easiest to get rid of from a fluff point of view as they're the smallest of the main factions in the game.

From a gameplay perspective I think consolidation would probably be better than removal, though I do think a lot of the mini factions in the Imperium are going too far. I'd have preferred armies like Custodes and Grey Knights to not be a thing and the same for Assassins, but if I had to choose one it'd probably be Knights just because I think it's ridiculous in a game the scale of 40k to have an army that's entirely super-heavy vehicles.

Grey knights. Thy are supposed to be an ultra secret arm of the inquisition, basically. Normal peolle who are even around them are supposedly killed to keep their secrecy. They are not supposed to be a standard army but daemon hunters. The belong as a special force fit fighting daemons.

Wasn't that retconned in 5th Ed. handwavium to state that they'll fight other forces to prevent a predicted daemonic incursion?

Grey Knights. They were a terrible idea from conception and GW hasn't really handled them well in a long time. And now with Custodes and Primaris what do they really offer?

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Get your hater hats on. If a faction had to bite the dust who would you want on the chopping block?

I'd have either Necrons as they are an incredibly boring army or Tau simply because they don't do Melee.

I'd lose both - mostly because they still feel like late arrivals to me (2E player who had a two decade break from the arrival of 3E) and they still don't feel part of the 40k universe from my perspective.


That said, I like there being a no melee army (though IG are primarily this too) because it makes in a sci fi context. On the other hand, it's a sci fantasty context with wall-to-wall farcical weaponry on all fronts so who cares?

Me too, they've never seemed like real armies to me, only the 2nd edition armies will ever be true armies.

Oh wow .. Like THAT is it ? well how about we get rid of Chaos in it's entirety? I mean honestly, what has Chaos ever done for us ?

other than opening the warp and letting the rabid feral cats daemons in.

at Least Necrons want something to happen rather than just tear it all down 'cuz we're still angry at Dad!'

Dude, chill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not a faction, but in the lore I think there are far too many space marine chapters. It's hard to keep up reading through lexicanum. I think the original legions, sure. But I think the 2nd founding chapters should've been limited to maybe 5 max per parent legion. Keep outliers like the carcharodons, and the badab war stuff, but can the rest. Just unnecessary filler.

For me it would be Grey Knights, followed Death Watch and by sisters for the simple fact all three should be choices un a codex representing thier branch of the inquisition, and be relativly rare options compared to inquisitorial henchmen and troops.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
But if we want to talk about full on removal from the lore probably the Ynnari. If the Eldar are going to get a God back od rather it be the reemergence of one of the old ones to shake things up.

Imperial knights. Easiest faction to remove that would have no impact on the fluff at all really. It would be nice to scale down the super heavies on the tabletop as well.

Knights.

Even if grey poupon..knights can predict where critical battles involving things like Orks or tyranids will take place they would be better to give that information to conventional forces amd save themselves for daemon fighting.

I don't disagree and wasn't saying it was any less silly to have the GK steal the Eldar Farseer's schtick of, erm, seeing far.

Just saying that it was retconned, handwavium avadra Wardius.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Even if grey poupon..knights can predict where critical battles involving things like Orks or tyranids will take place they would be better to give that information to conventional forces amd save themselves for daemon fighting.

I always thought GK, DW and SoB made sense because they are not solitary organisations (like the space marine chapters are). SoB are a little special since their super involved in the ecclisiarchy, imperial politics, the inquisition and because there's so many of them. The DT and the GK are both so involved in the inquisition, an organisation that stretches across the entire Imperium, that they rarerly (if ever) acted alone but where rather deployed by inquisitorial authorisation or behest. Unfortunantely GK fluff has for some reason wanted to cut its ties with the Imperium at large but hey...

It's the same thing as with GK really, innit?

"We have 1,000 highly-trained, super-cereal-snowflake dudesmen to oppose Daemons/Xenos across the entire Imperium, so we'll deploy them in massed formations in three places."

Several Imperial factions as there are too many. Imperial knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Deathwatch, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes. Instead of making new factions supported the existing factions better including the non imperial factions. What will probably happen is after these new factions lose their excitement they will be left by the side with a few units and another new imperial faction will be invented.

Knights. Also, get rid of cultists.

Morkphoiz wrote:
Space Wolves and Grey Knights can go imo.

Space Wolves fluff is just ridiculous. Seriously. It's Wolf gak riding on a Wolf. I hate this Chapter. Just go and count the word "Wolf" in their Codex for funsies. Dont forget to include "wolf" in foreign languages. Overwolf Wolf Wulf-Wolf, Son of Wolf Wolf-Wolf riding his Wolf to battle while swinging the Sword of Wolves. It is that bad.

I like the looks and of the Grey Knights. But thats about it. Their lore is bad and an army of dedicated demonhunters should only hunt demons period. There is just no place for them in the game.

That is freaking hilarious

I'm in complete agreement with most of the posts here. Hard reset of Space Wolves to be less wolfy; they're ridiculous now. Knights as LoW options for mechanicus. GK and Deathwatch as units available to the imperium but not full armies in themselves.

I don't mind Tau but I'd like to see their mech stuff redone aesthetically. It would be good if they were expanded on to include more interesting xenos allies. I think there's potential in them where the other major factions feel complete, and adding things like dinobots, wulfen, centurions, haruspex and boomdakka snazzwagons hasn't really offered much of interest (to me at least). It would be good if the Tau codex provided options that encouraged more varied playstyles.

Knights, Deathwatch and GK (all in one Inquisition Army would be cool)

Genestealer Cult should go, in my opinion.

They're a mayfly faction that only exists in the short time between uprising against whoever rules the planet they're on, and the arrival of the tyrnids to nom everything.

They can hold no territory, design no weapons, build no ships, and thus can have no real impact on the galaxy at large. Which is the scale that 40k operates at, fluff wise.

All that effort should have gone into bringing a background only xeno race onto the tabletop.

 Graysparrow wrote:
Genestealer Cult should go, in my opinion.

They're a mayfly faction that only exists in the short time between uprising against whoever rules the planet they're on, and the arrival of the tyrnids to nom everything.

They can hold no territory, design no weapons, build no ships, and thus can have no real impact on the galaxy at large. Which is the scale that 40k operates at, fluff wise.

All that effort should have gone into bringing a background only xeno race onto the tabletop.

In all fairness, Genestealer Cults are known to travel using Space Hulks and stolen ships to move around and they do seem to make their own weapons by modifying civilian tools and weapons for usage in a war. Some Genetealer Cults have been mentionned as controlling their own little empires while waiting for the Tyranids to come (which might take centuries). They aren't irrelevent on the galactic scale, but its odd they went with them instead of making Lost and Damned or indeed a new xeno race.

 Graysparrow wrote:
Genestealer Cult should go, in my opinion.

They're a mayfly faction that only exists in the short time between uprising against whoever rules the planet they're on, and the arrival of the tyrnids to nom everything.

They can hold no territory, design no weapons, build no ships, and thus can have no real impact on the galaxy at large. Which is the scale that 40k operates at, fluff wise.

All that effort should have gone into bringing a background only xeno race onto the tabletop.

That's all easily fixed. Remove the ridiculous retcon that genestealers are tyranid things that attract more tyranids and stupidly feed themselves to the hive fleet.

They can even be kept as tyranid scout/disruption organisms if they really have to be. It's still in the interest of the hive fleets to have wide spread scouting organisms and their prey disrupted and fighting civil wars on worlds they aren't immediately consuming.

Internal threats to the Imperium are a huge part of the background that are woefully under-represented. Squatting the one that managed to scrabble back to the light of the tabletop would be a shame.

Make Zoats Great Again!

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
Space Wolves and Grey Knights can go imo.

Space Wolves fluff is just ridiculous. Seriously. It's Wolf gak riding on a Wolf. I hate this Chapter. Just go and count the word "Wolf" in their Codex for funsies. Dont forget to include "wolf" in foreign languages. Overwolf Wolf Wulf-Wolf, Son of Wolf Wolf-Wolf riding his Wolf to battle while swinging the Sword of Wolves. It is that bad.

I like the looks and of the Grey Knights. But thats about it. Their lore is bad and an army of dedicated demonhunters should only hunt demons period. There is just no place for them in the game.

That is freaking hilarious

Hardly unique to Space Wolves, though. Blood Angels suffer a similar problem with all their Blood-things and primarch Bloodyman.

It's a convention used to some extent through most of the different Space Marine forces. Sure, it's silly, but it seems peculiar to single out one specific example of it.

jorzolek wrote:
I would drop T’au. They just aren’t that interesting. They should have been developed as a human, or primarily human with Xenos allies, non-Imperium faction.

Yes, that's what's uninteresting about them, the fact that they're not human.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's the same thing as with GK really, innit?

"We have 1,000 highly-trained, super-cereal-snowflake dudesmen to oppose Daemons/Xenos across the entire Imperium, so we'll deploy them in massed formations in three places."

Grey knights were always more badass/viable in their role within older fluff/second edition ways of using them. You only had access to 1x 5 man squad of GK terminators as an ally, nothing more and they were of adequate power to be able to take out anything they touched, yet being only 1 squad of 5, a whole army could defeat them when concentrating, or you could ignore them.

The same should be for deathwatch... Lay off the additional units/vehicles, it should be just 1 squad with badass rules and equipment you ally in.

I'd get rid of either the Imperium or Chaos. Just one human faction please and add some more Xenos.

Leaning more towards Chaos. 40k Chaos is pretty lame compared to the old Warhammer fantasy Chaos Warriors.

 Graysparrow wrote:
Genestealer Cult should go, in my opinion.

I like the Genestealer Cult. They make for a nice ally faction for the Tyranids, who are otherwise a bit one note. Admittedly since I've been following 40K since the RT days it just makes me happy to see them as an officially supported tabeltop force again.

Voss wrote:
That's all easily fixed. Remove the ridiculous retcon that genestealers are tyranid things that attract more tyranids and stupidly feed themselves to the hive fleet.

To be fair that retcon has been in place for as long as the Tyranids have been a fully realised tabletop faction, which if I recall correctly was the start of 2nd edition.

I also like the idea that while some cults might cheerfully feed themselves to the hive fleet in best doomsday cult fashion there might be others who will be horrified when they realise that they too are going to end up on the menu.

Voss wrote:
Squatting the one that managed to scrabble back to the light of the tabletop would be a shame.

Agreed.

For myself, I'll agree with everyone who says that the multitude of imperial mini-factions could do with being consolidated into alles rather than independant forces (I'd call the Tempestus Scions the worst offender here - being essentially a one-unit army.) Whilst I wouldn't want to remove any of them outright the Sisters of Silence and especially the Custodes feel particularly gratuitous.

I don't play Genestealer Cults myself but their release was something like a glimmer of hope that GW does in fact care for its community be reviving a faction hat had almost entered meme territory.

I also think they do have a place in 40k because they provide a link between Tyranids and Humans and flesh out both factions in the process, while offering the opportunity to play something akin to a Hive Scum faction with a bit of Tyranids sprinkled in there if you want it.

Eldar. Hate the models. Hate how the writers at GW HQ are obviously space elf fan boys. Hate how they play on the table top. Hate how their fluff always has to be updated to 'trump' other factions fluff. Hate that they've never been outside of the top 3 armies.

Space Wolves are a distant second because they are just stupid wolfy nonsense

Cynista wrote:
Eldar. Hate the models. Hate how the writers at GW HQ are obviously space elf fan boys. Hate how they play on the table top. Hate how their fluff always has to be updated to 'trump' other factions fluff. Hate that they've never been outside of the top 3 armies.

Eldar though? They haven't gotten any new models in years now... I love playing them and love seeing their cool units on the field. And really space elf fanboys? Elves are used as the plot demands in terms of how many have to die to make a marine look cool.

I think the greyknights, and other inquisition forces need to be merged into one book. That limits what units you can take based on what ordo you go with.

Custodes and Sisters of Silence should be one codex... The Talons of the Emperor. Would give Custodes a cheap troop choice with sisters and the anti-psychic they need to deal with the majority of the threats they meet.

"Hate how their fluff always has to be updated to 'trump' other factions fluff"
When has this happened? The fluff regarding how powerful they are hasn't changed in... not sure it has changed?

"Hate that they've never been outside of the top 3 armies."
Neither have Humans.

The question is a bit vague.

Do you mean which faction in the game should lose its codex or be rolled into another book? In that case...half of the factions are not large enough to warrant a full codex and could easily be combined. GW just knows that codices, dice, and strategy cards are an easy sell.

Fluff-wise? There are plenty of decent nominees. Orks being pretty high up there. They have zero depth with regard to system-spanning involvment in stories other than being the "big bad" who randomly shows up in every warzone etc. They have shortsighted goals and are little more than thugs, bandits and comic relief. They add very little to the actual fluff or lore or existence of the universe. They have no sworn enemies, etc. If you removed them, would any major story lines in 40K suffer? Not really. Admittedly Tau and Necrons could disappear with very little impact to anything as well.

The only major, genuine movers and shakers for the entirety of the known space in which our game occupies...would be Chaos and the Imperium. Sure, Tyranids are spooky when they show up - but for galaxy spanning impact? Imperium and Chaos. Everyone else could (and often does) play a background role. Dark Eldar never added anything of genuine value to the story that wasn't occupied by Eldar pirates or corsairs. Eldar are so few in number that they should have very little impact (though their background is written well enough to allow them to show up frequently). Harlequins should just be in the Eldar book, unnecessary as a separate force.

Almost all the other factions roll into either Imperium or Chaos, and that's arguably suitable given the fluff of the game at the moment.

Cynista wrote:
Eldar. Hate the models. Hate how the writers at GW HQ are obviously space elf fan boys. Hate how they play on the table top. Hate how their fluff always has to be updated to 'trump' other factions fluff. Hate that they've never been outside of the top 3 armies.

Eldar are often portrayed poorly in fluff. Space Marine Librarians and even some Necrons have taken their foresight schtick, the Tau have encroached on their mobile, high firepower stuff, the Necrons have toppled them from their most technologically advantaged faction perch.

They get outmanevoured by Space Marines in Rhinos in Codex fluff, one of their largest Craftworlds (Alaitoc) gets threatened by a Space Marine Chapter and a few Imperial Guard regiments and have to resort to diplomacy. Their foresight routinely backfires.

How exactly is their fluff trumping everyone elses?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Eldar. Hate the models. Hate how the writers at GW HQ are obviously space elf fan boys. Hate how they play on the table top. Hate how their fluff always has to be updated to 'trump' other factions fluff. Hate that they've never been outside of the top 3 armies.

Eldar are often portrayed poorly in fluff. Space Marine Librarians and even some Necrons have taken their foresight schtick, the Tau have encroached on their mobile, high firepower stuff, the Necrons have toppled them from their most technologically advantaged faction perch.

They get outmanevoured by Space Marines in Rhinos in Codex fluff, one of their largest Craftworlds (Alaitoc) gets threatened by a Space Marine Chapter and a few Imperial Guard regiments and have to resort to diplomacy. Their foresight routinely backfires.

How exactly is their fluff trumping everyone elses?

Don't forget the fact that their literal god of war is a Worf.

Id like to see the Custodes vanish. I love their fluff but they are the Emperors personal guard and emissaries, not a full pledged army going all over the place.

Otherwise I agree with all the people saying that a lot of the codices need to be combined. Combine the Tyranids and Genestealer cult, Combine all the Marines into one mega Codex, Eldar should just be Elder (space pirates and Slaanesh tainted Dark Eldar), all Chaos including Daemons, and all Inquisitorial (Ordo Malleus, Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus, and Officio Assassinorum).

 Ruberu wrote:
Id like to see the Custodes vanish. I love their fluff but they are the Emperors personal guard and emissaries, not a full pledged army going all over the place.

Otherwise I agree with all the people saying that a lot of the codices need to be combined. Combine the Tyranids and Genestealer cult, Combine all the Marines into one mega Codex, Eldar should just be Elder (space pirates and Slaanesh tainted Dark Eldar), all Chaos including Daemons, and all Inquisitorial (Ordo Malleus, Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus, and Officio Assassinorum).

GW would vehemently disagree with you, especially when we now can ally, so they could not force you to buy more books.

 Ruberu wrote:
Id like to see the Custodes vanish. I love their fluff but they are the Emperors personal guard and emissaries, not a full pledged army going all over the place.

Otherwise I agree with all the people saying that a lot of the codices need to be combined. Combine the Tyranids and Genestealer cult, Combine all the Marines into one mega Codex, Eldar should just be Elder (space pirates and Slaanesh tainted Dark Eldar), all Chaos including Daemons, and all Inquisitorial (Ordo Malleus, Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus, and Officio Assassinorum).

I don't really get why people think that entire races need a combined codex when we have how many Marine dexes with mostly cosmetic or pretend differences that would all be replicated in one or mroe non snowflake chapter.

Well, let's see what factions I would have in the game if it was up to me:
- Space Marines (Index Astartes supplement for divergent Chapter-related stuff)
- Chaos (Tome of Chaos supplement for God-specific stuff)
- Eldar (with Harlequins mini-dex)
- Orks
- Imperial Guard (Regiments of Renown supplement for unique regiment-specific stuff)
- Inquisition (Sisters and Grey Knights included, Agents of the Imperium supplement for fringe stuff like Arbites and Mechanicus)
- Necrons
- Tau Empire (with Kroots mini-dex)
- Dark Eldar
- Genestealer Cults

This way, we can have 5 "Forces of Order" factions and 5 "Forces of Destruction" factions for an easier campaign organization and other narrative shenanigans.

Tyranids would be reduced to a purely narrative threat aka "If you don't stop these GCs then the Tyranids arrive and om-nom-nom your world." So I guess my pick for killing a faction would be them.

Delete all bad factions and turn 40K into exclusively IG mirror matches.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Delete all bad factions and turn 40K into exclusively IG mirror matches.

So, Warhammer 2k, instead of 30k HH?

I'm OK with that!

If I was in charge of rolling factions together I’d do it like this:

The Vanilla Marine codex stays the same.

All non-specialist Marines get rolled into Codex Adeptus Astartes: Non-compliant.

Deathwatch, GK, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle (maybe, maybe keep their own codex) possibly Militarum Tempestus.

Tyranids and Genestealer Cults get a half-and-half codex.

IK stay the same.

Adeptus Mechanicus stays the same.

Adeptus Custodes stay the same.

Tau stay the same.

Necrons stay the same.

Orks stay the same.

IG stay the same.

I don’t know enough about Chaos, but I would probably keep all their codices separate.

The Eldar all get rolled together.

I'm baffled by people who want to make Eldar one codex but don't put Chaos Marines with Space Marines.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Delete all bad factions and turn 40K into exclusively IG mirror matches.

Perfectly Balanced.

Have this

pm713 wrote:
I'm baffled by people who want to make Eldar one codex but don't put Chaos Marines with Space Marines.

I hope you are not talking about me, as well, as I cited my reasoning for lack of knowledge of Chaos.

 1hadhq wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Delete all bad factions and turn 40K into exclusively IG mirror matches.

Perfectly Balanced.

Have this

Thanks I think 9th ed will be the best edition yet!

IMO all of the existing armies could be rolled into these codices:

Space Marines (Chapters can use unique detachments like Deathwing or loadouts like Furioso. Special Characters etc come with their own datasheets that can plug straight into an SM list in their Force Org Slot)
Imperial Guard
Agents of the Imperium (Inquisitors, GK, DW, Admech, SoB, slot them straight into any SM/IG army in their Force Org Slot. I would drop Custodes completely if I had the power)

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons (could even potentially combine these two)

Ork
Tyranids (GSC go here)
Eldar (Harlequins go here)
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Tau Empire (expand on mercs/allied races, drop the gundam)

Cuts a lot of the fat, keeps armies simple and thematic. Restrict Knights (Agents of the Imperium list) and other Superheavies to Apoc games only.

If I had to choose a single faction to retcon out of existence, it'd probably be Necrons. While the C'tan/Machine God fluff is interesting, I don't think they fill a niche that other 40k armies don't already do better.

How about your favorite faction?