What do you think GW will do it with? Especially Infantry wise. Because as I look at the current range of ancient plastic cadians/even more ancient plastic catachans, with the awkward needing to swap out minis from sets to put in heavy weapon teams bought from another kit, and the total lack of options available to them (not just in the kit but rules wise too; Necromunda gangers have a wider range of weaponry) and the discontinued metals and so on, I just think the range is in a bit of a mess at the moment.
The vehicles/Scions are doing ok. And then you have plastic Ogryns of course. But the pyskers and ratlings are still metal/finecast, as are the regimental advisers. And in my opinion, the whole way that the range is presented is entirely out of date. Most kits today I think come with every option available don’t they? You don’t need to buy other kits to get unavailable parts for your units, just extra models.
And there’s a question of bases; if you could somehow cram a heavy weapon kit into a standard infantry set, you’d need to include the bigger base. However, what if the person doesn’t want to assemble them as a heavy weapon team? Will the set include spare bases for that?
There’s the question of regiments too; can gw continue to mantain multiple regiment kits? No other army is as varied in appearance as the IG, but can that justify making multiples of the same unit? It’s funny that in a way, we’ve never had more official easy to use IG customisation options available (skitarri, scions, ‘stealer cults, every Necromunda gang, AoS free peoples, the cadians and catachans etc.) but what will be the IG standard going forward? Personally I think it should be Necromunda regiments, as I said in another thread.
I think they'll just be updated with kits in time as part of normal renewal but nothing exceptional. They'll just chug along.
They'll probably only stick to Cadian style as that's the standard guard. I think the "extra" guards will in future be done with upgrade kits and
I think it's good that they're making a lot of the parts interchangeable (guard, genestealer cults, mechanicum) and I hope this continues in future. This will mean that they will do less normal regiments models (vostroyan, mordian) as intended, but you'll have to kitbash and buy upgrades on top of the original. I do also believe they'll improve the sets to reflect more weapons options (eg: plasma in the 10 man guard box, sergeant weapons). OR again they'll just produce upgrade sprues for you to buy if you want the extras.
It's going to be about the money. It's more profitable for them to give a basic box and then you have to buy either mechanicum for the different heads, or buy upgrade boxes. Don't get me wrong.. there will still be plenty of spare parts in the box for a lot of the options, but they seem to be encouraging creating your own custom regiments with GW kitbashed stuff. That'll reduce the need for people to go buy Victorian Miniatures, Anvil Industry, Kromlech, Brother Vinni stuff etc etc.
If GW continues with its present course (and that’s always a big IF), we can expect them to consolidate their miniature lines - I think the top brass has recognized they’ve got too many SKU’s (or equivalent) and they need to do some consolidation and streamlining. We’ve seen that with the entire turnover of the AoS line, and if they’re smart they’re scrutinizing the 40K line as well.
Anything that is metal or finecast is in line on the chopping block or being remade in plastic. Personally, I don’t think GW is going to continue supporting two major IG lines (Catachan & Cadian in this case), and in the future may see the Catachan line quietly discontinued.
My *hope* is they will redesign the infantry figures for Cadians. A new “armor mark” so to speak. But with “human in futuristic/modern armor” not easily copyrighted, don’t expect GW to put a lot of effort into redesigning the line.
The IG range is constrained by the codex and fluff. Because there are so many regiments with completely different looks that cannot share a kit, they have to either manufacture several kits to produce each regiment or redesign the faction. If each regiment shared a common look, like marines, then it comes down to paint scheme to determine what your regiment is. I am really not sure what they can do besides my two suggestions or staying their course by keeping the old kits. I for one play Catachans and like a Catachan I'll fight like hell against getting "squatted" in favor of an overall redesign.
GW is models first, rules second, fluff last. That's how the company operates- sculptors create kits, then the rules team makes rules to fit the kits, and then the writers integrate it into the background.
So I don't think the IG range is constrained by codex or fluff, because that's just not how GW works. They very well might throw out the Catachan and Cadian ranges entirely and introduce a new regiment, and then either fluff it as a new central regiment (maybe keeping Cadians around for a while but slowly fading out) or say that Guilliman's overseeing a total refit and standardization of the Guard or something.
The point being, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the codex or fluff regarding where the line is going.
If I put my sensible hat on, I can see them quietly discontinuing the catachans in plastic (though I hope they won't), and releasing an all new line of Cadians. They are the poster boys of the guard, and the most generic, so it makes sense to stick with them. I would hope though that these new Cadians/Generic IG are now in scale and fully compatible with all the other human plastics (a given I'm sure), but that they're also subtly tweaked to be just a little bit more 'gothic', just a little bit more Imperium Of Man. Though that's not likely.
The Command Squad set is absolutely fine as is. I assume that it's compatible with the other human plastics? The 'stealers, scions etc? If it is, then keep it.
What would be needed is a new basic infantry box, one with the option of both lasguns and shotguns, and every special weapon and sergeant option (plus a vox caster). Heavy weapon teams might be difficult though...that's the crunch for me.
A new heavy weapon team kit would be nice too. Maybe with some new options, if that's possible. I've always felt that they could have plasma cannons for example. But if I'm honest, I would take the opportunity to rethink IG heavy weapons. Bring in mobile weapon platforms. I think the rapier is particularly cool for example.
Also, about the other IG regiments...shouldn't this be the sort of thing Forge World handles? Plastic Cadians via GW for the mainstream, resin other regiments via FW for the collecters/painters etc?
Future War Cultist wrote: Also, about the other IG regiments...shouldn't this be the sort of thing Forge World handles? Plastic Cadians via GW for the mainstream, resin other regiments via FW for the collecters/painters etc?
Forge World seems to be getting out of IG regiments entirely. Elysians are gone, Renegades are gone, and even the Death Korps have big gaps in their line. GW's plastics are getting to the point where they rival FW's old sculpts in quality, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Death Korps are retired in the next couple of years and we never see another FW Guard regiment again.
GW is models first, rules second, fluff last. That's how the company operates- sculptors create kits, then the rules team makes rules to fit the kits, and then the writers integrate it into the background.
So I don't think the IG range is constrained by codex or fluff, because that's just not how GW works. They very well might throw out the Catachan and Cadian ranges entirely and introduce a new regiment, and then either fluff it as a new central regiment (maybe keeping Cadians around for a while but slowly fading out) or say that Guilliman's overseeing a total refit and standardization of the Guard or something.
The point being, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the codex or fluff regarding where the line is going.[/quote
Some of my favourite kits GW have done are the Night Lords and Iron Warriors upgrade kits. Small releases, but they give a bit of character to any power armour unit for little effort. Stick a NL head on the rhino combi bolter gunner and suddenly even without painting it's a NL rhino. I'd love to see the same for IG.Tallarn heads and maybe torsos that fit onto Cadian minis, for example
I suppose third party bits makers already do that though
I've always felt GW should have done more with Guard.
I feel GW should have made a guard force that is always there, and then also offered for a set amount of time a special regiment. Like for the next year you can get Emperors Guard, a small range of 1905 Japanese army theme, Just of normal troops, heavy and special weapons, and a couple command figs, but they will be gone on Jan1 2020 so buy now.
And on Jan 2, introduce the Vigilance Brigantines, Just a squad and heavy and special weapons and a command figures, modeled off 1700 Caribbean Pirates as a theme, buy now, as they are gone Jan 1 2021.
Or during all that time, buy just the normal Cadian look forces, always on sale at your normal GW store.
A standardized kit is a redesign of the faction. That is really the only way to get rid of the second party model makers that supply models for regiments GW doesn't support but are in the codex. That is what I meant by the range being constrained by the fluff and codex. If they want to only produce Cadian troops then Cadian troops are all there is galaxy wide.
Yes, did I misunderstand something? My point was that it likely will be neither making several kits nor a total redesign of the faction. They'll just make a new set of kits functionally equivalent to the current ones, the rules writers will have no changes needed, and then it's up to the fluff writers to retrofit the new uniforms with the fluff. That fluff might be that now Guard all share a common uniform (which is kind of the direction they've been going with the Cadians), but it equally could just be a new Guard regiment (say, Necromunda) and the old ones will be quietly retired after a few years like they've already done to Steel Legion/Valhallans/Vostroyans/Tallarn/Mordians/Praetorians despite those all still existing in the lore.
I could very well see them releasing a new regiment, keeping the Cadians and Catachans around for a while but slowly retiring them, and occasionally doing limited runs of the old pewter models.
catbarf wrote: Forge World seems to be getting out of IG regiments entirely. Elysians are gone, Renegades are gone, and even the Death Korps have big gaps in their line. GW's plastics are getting to the point where they rival FW's old sculpts in quality, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Death Korps are retired in the next couple of years and we never see another FW Guard regiment again.
That would be a terrible shame imo. Especially because this would be exactly the kind of thing they should be doing. I would rather FW devotes it's time and energy towards making alternative versions of models that can't be supported main stream.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Some of my favourite kits GW have done are the Night Lords and Iron Warriors upgrade kits. Small releases, but they give a bit of character to any power armour unit for little effort. Stick a NL head on the rhino combi bolter gunner and suddenly even without painting it's a NL rhino. I'd love to see the same for IG.Tallarn heads and maybe torsos that fit onto Cadian minis, for example
I suppose third party bits makers already do that though
Ah now this is a good idea! It could totally work; literally the only things you need to turn Cadians into Tallarns are the heads, curved swords and daggers and maybe a cape. Could easily be done; ten tallarn heads, a curved power sword arm, Tallarn looking accessories, and a combined cape/torso that could be great for an Officer.
If they did that, and kept the catachans, GW would be producing minis for 3 out of the 7 regiments (plus the Militarum Tempestus). 4 out of 8...not bad at all! And I've had a change of heart with regards to catachans...they need to stay. 3 of the IG's named characters are catachans. There's the command squad that still holds up well, and the catachan heads on all the vehicles. Other factions have more unit types than the IG (marines have Primaris Intercessors, Interceptors, Hellblasters, Rievers, Aggressors plus all the old type marines). We have a few unit types with multiple uniforms. From a supply point of view, both work out the same imo.
A Cadian infantry kit, Cadian command kit, Catachan infantry kit, Catachan command kit, possibly a shared heavy weapon kit but probably two separate ones...5-6 sets...that's manageable right? With a Tallarn upgrade sprue for the Cadian sets, with a plastic pysker and ratling kit and plastic characters...yeah, this is totally doable.
What they'll do is increase the size of them to be bigger than the Necromunda models so then they've got another excuse to increase the size of "too small" Marines.
Brotherjanus wrote: A standardized kit is a redesign of the faction. That is really the only way to get rid of the second party model makers that supply models for regiments GW doesn't support but are in the codex.
Well, since anyone can make a human infantryman wielding a sci-fi gun in the correct scale, I doubt any non-GW suppliers of alt guard figures will be concerned if GW suddenly had only 1 look for the range. Or if they suddenly changed all the fluff & rules so as to eliminate any difference between fielding a Cadian vs a Tallarn vs a Vostroyan, etc.
Afterall, beyond maybe your local shop/club lv events, your not seeing armies of Kromlech figs in your tourneys are you? And yet their selling figs to someone....
I agree that the line is a bit of a mess, but I don't see anything happening with them for years to come. The molds are bought a paid for and the sets still sell. The profit margins on them are massive and as others have said, normal humans are not easy to copyright.
GW is models first, rules second, fluff last. That's how the company operates- sculptors create kits, then the rules team makes rules to fit the kits, and then the writers integrate it into the background.
So I don't think the IG range is constrained by codex or fluff, because that's just not how GW works. They very well might throw out the Catachan and Cadian ranges entirely and introduce a new regiment, and then either fluff it as a new central regiment (maybe keeping Cadians around for a while but slowly fading out) or say that Guilliman's overseeing a total refit and standardization of the Guard or something.
The point being, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the codex or fluff regarding where the line is going.
Did you read beyond my first sentence?
Besides which I don't think his statement is true. Any recent interviews with games designers I've heard or read have them stating that they work incredibly closely with the background writer and that if anything it is about making the rules fit the fluff for the unit rather than the other way around.
I don't think IG infantry sells well enough that they're going to update or bring back any of the other factions other than as one-offs as recently. If you want themed guard, use the custom regiment builder. They have enough to cover the original factions and to create more if you wish.
It's what I plan to do once I have 4 Squads of Cadians to take to GW stores. Then I can play anywhere without harassment while building my custom themed forces on the side.
I don't really care, because it doesn't really matter. I own something like 150 metal IG minis, of which the bulk are Tallarn. I won't need to buy a single IG model for as long as I live.
That said, it would be nice if they provided Valhallans or some other greatcoat force in plastic. Regardless, it's not like IG will ever go away.
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Future War Cultist wrote: If they did that, and kept the catachans, GW would be producing minis for 3 out of the 7 regiments (plus the Militarum Tempestus). 4 out of 8...not bad at all!
Ignoring the Necromunda Gangers, there quite a few more are more than 7 Imperial Guard Regiments that GW has produced and sold as such:
* Armageddon Steel Legion
* Attillan Rough Riders
* Cadian
* Catachan Jungle Fighters
* Elysian Drop Troops (FW)
* Krieg Death Corps (FW)
* Mordian
* Praetorian
* Tallarn Desert Raiders
* Tanith First and Only
* Valhallan
* Vostoyan
Plus the Dirty Dozen.
Plus Stormtroopers and Kasrkin.
Plus the generics from Rogue Trader.
I suspect that I may have missed a few, but it's clearly more than 7 Regiments.
GW is models first, rules second, fluff last. That's how the company operates- sculptors create kits, then the rules team makes rules to fit the kits, and then the writers integrate it into the background.
So I don't think the IG range is constrained by codex or fluff, because that's just not how GW works. They very well might throw out the Catachan and Cadian ranges entirely and introduce a new regiment, and then either fluff it as a new central regiment (maybe keeping Cadians around for a while but slowly fading out) or say that Guilliman's overseeing a total refit and standardization of the Guard or something.
The point being, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the codex or fluff regarding where the line is going.
Did you read beyond my first sentence?
Besides which I don't think his statement is true. Any recent interviews with games designers I've heard or read have them stating that they work incredibly closely with the background writer and that if anything it is about making the rules fit the fluff for the unit rather than the other way around.
yeah, I was going to say this. At the very least the fluff precedes the rules.
I know there are more than 7 regiments. There’s technically 100s of regiments if you go by the fluff. When I say 7 regiments, I mean the 7 regiments that have rules in the IG codex. The Cadians, Catachans, Tallarns, Valhallans, Mordians, Vostroyians and Armageddon rules. Plus the Militarum Tempestus. I don’t count the Elysians or the Death Korps because FW handle those.
In talking about the miniature range and its future, I'm not buying it, I think it more reasonable to talk about the stuff GW has actually sold, which *does* include FW.
Also, my Imperial Guard Codex describes all 11 Regiments that GW supported at the time of publication (aside from the Praetorians and Tanith).
If we dial back the clock, we go to the 3E or 4E Codex, which had DIY Regiment rules, which creates huge numbers of possible combinations, and illustrated an even greater number of Regiments.
Not that it matters, considering that GW pulled the Vostroyans out of their ass with zero precedent, just as they did with the Tanith and Krieg and Elysian
Going on a limb I would say plastic DKoK at some point. GW binned the R&H line and then brought out plastics in BSF. Not a fully fledged R&H line but they seem prepared to do it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In talking about the miniature range and its future, I'm not buying it, I think it more reasonable to talk about the stuff GW has actually sold, which *does* include FW.
Also, my Imperial Guard Codex describes all 11 Regiments that GW supported at the time of publication (aside from the Praetorians and Tanith).
If we dial back the clock, we go to the 3E or 4E Codex, which had DIY Regiment rules, which creates huge numbers of possible combinations, and illustrated an even greater number of Regiments.
Not that it matters, considering that GW pulled the Vostroyans out of their ass with zero precedent, just as they did with the Tanith and Krieg and Elysian
And the Catachans, Mordians, Tallarns, Valhallans, Attilans and Praetorians, for that matter.
Praetorians and Mordians can be made from the existing plastic Cadians with a head swap and appropriate paintjob - easily included on a hypothetical new plastic range. The others are a little trickier, but any regiment can be explained away with a paint scheme and saying they were re-equipped at some point with standard equipment. I could see an upgrade kit for Catacahans - bare torsos, arms and heads.
If I were to be cynical I could imagine one scenario. This is in no way something that will happen, but I find it interesting to ponder as a "what if".
GW semi-retire the Cadian line as they feel they've already extracted maximum profit from it. They instead release something like Steel Legion(or whatever) to give us a newer(and updated) line to collect.
Now they take Cadians, update them, and make the updated models Renegade Guard only. This means that existing IG players could play Renegade Guard, but would still feel obliged to buy the new kits for the updated look, new weapon/chaosification.
Problem I see not only for IG but other armies is GW really doesn't like updating existing units. They appear to like dropping brand new units whenever possible, I'd assume because a model no one has will sell better than an update to something old players already own. Updates they do make like ogryn or the Hydra need to have a variant nobody owns to encourage sales. So how do you do that with guardsmen? All you can really do is conscripts, line infantry, vets, and command staff. It's not like you can really make an infantry squad and then a breacher squad option in the same kit.
So odds are our next release will continue the trend of being elite units getting updates with a new kit one asked for and GW milking the old squad box as long as possible.
It's hardly just a guard problem either. Ork players wanted tankbustas, deff koptas, and kommandos, instead they got 5 different types of buggies. They really only needed one, the updates to existing units would have been well received and we're far more needed. But that wouldn't sell as well so they got new buggies instead. I don't know eldar super well but I know they have a ton of models like rangers still stuck with dated metals and yet their newest release was a stupid super heavy, etc. Etc.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In talking about the miniature range and its future, I'm not buying it, I think it more reasonable to talk about the stuff GW has actually sold, which *does* include FW.
Also, my Imperial Guard Codex describes all 11 Regiments that GW supported at the time of publication (aside from the Praetorians and Tanith).
If we dial back the clock, we go to the 3E or 4E Codex, which had DIY Regiment rules, which creates huge numbers of possible combinations, and illustrated an even greater number of Regiments.
Not that it matters, considering that GW pulled the Vostroyans out of their ass with zero precedent, just as they did with the Tanith and Krieg and Elysian
And the Catachans, Mordians, Tallarns, Valhallans, Attilans and Praetorians, for that matter.
Sure, GW does that, but it was totally unnecessary. It didn't create a whole new Codex army to play.
purplkrush wrote: I don't think IG infantry sells well enough that they're going to update or bring back any of the other factions other than as one-offs as recently. If you want themed guard, use the custom regiment builder. They have enough to cover the original factions and to create more if you wish.
It's what I plan to do once I have 4 Squads of Cadians to take to GW stores. Then I can play anywhere without harassment while building my custom themed forces on the side.
I think the Anvil method would be a very smart and very lucrative venture for GW. Maybe make 2-3 torso types, arms, and a large variety of heads available as upgrade sprues would be like printing gold. Several can even share. Vostroyan would double as Imperial Knight house guard with a head swap. Mordian/Praetorian. Tallarn/Steel Legion/DKoK (really its all greatcloacks + headswap for the most part). Catachan/Savage World/Headtakers. This would also be a great opportunity for them to expand the line and bring in new games with female guardsman (gasp!) I know if they ever did that I'd buy them in droves. Until then I'll keep paying the exorbitant shipping rates from Victoria Minis.
Also if you havent tried them yet the Anvil stuff is reasonably priced and top notch quality minis that fit extremely well, plus they have some really nice arm and leg poses. They make some killer Valhallan upgrades! Just no lady guard...
As someone who has done a reasonably convincing 2000+ point Talllarn army just of Cadians with a headswap, it's staggering to me that Forge World don't sell bags of 10 heads to help your guard look like the regiment you prefer.
Vostroyans and Mordians probably need more than a headswap but most of the others look fine.
Or even combined torsos+heads like the wonderful Reptilian Overlords Desert Reavers i use for my Tallarn-themed Militarum Tempestus Scions.
I buy a box of Cadians or Scions and then buy a third party heads or torsos. I would gladly give my money to Forge World but it seems to me they just don't want it.
True, a couple of "multi-kits", containing parts for a couple of regiments (much like Skitarii have stuff for both Rangers and Vanguards) would be fine, or "conversion kits" sold separately, containing only heads/guns/torsos/whatever only for that said regiment.
It will greatly boost modelling options. But since we have tons or 3rd party bits avalible, I wonder if it would be economically viable for GW to invest in such number of new molds.
It wouldn't be hard for GW to produce a generic kit with the options to make them into one of say two or three different regiments. The amount of parts on new sprues shows they're willing to fill the boxes with options. Even just alternate heads and pauldrons would be enough. Perhaps the sergeant could get a choice of torso too.
And I imagine it would sell well too.
I don't see why it is an issue to have multiple AM lines simultaneously. It really doesn't require many sprues.
If we look at the current grand total for plastic Guardsmen sprues, we have seven*:
Spoiler:
Cadian command squad:
Catachan command squad:
Cadian infantry squad:
Catachan infantry squad:
Cadian heavy weapons team:
Catachan heavy weapons team:
Heavy weapons sprue:
Bonus! Easy-to-build Cadian sprue:
As well as two Scion and three Ogryn sprues:
Spoiler:
Scion sprues:
Ogryn sprues:
That brings the total of AM infantry sprues to 12, for their entire plastic infantry. This really is not a lot- Space Marine tactical squads, for example, essentially have 9 sprues** alone!
Spoiler:
Tactical squad:
Mk III squad:
Mk IV squad:
Orks, as an army with a similar kind of pedigree and variety as AM, have a total of nineteen! That is a significantly higher number than the AM. So we can see that the AM sprues carry a lot of weight for their faction- those 4 sprues each used by Cadians or Catachans have to cover 6 different units each (8 including officers).
Therefore, I don't think supporting two alternate designs for AM is particularly a burden, because a low sprue load is needed to provide a wide range of options. Because the heavy weapons sprue is shared by both Cadians and Catachans, only three sprues are needed for a specific regimental design- any new regiments could share the same heavy weapons sprue (see below for more on this).
Three sprues is not a lot. Now, I can see an argument that any increase in the number of options on the sprue could see the numbers increase- two sprues for an infantry squad with an alternate build for shotgun veterans for example- that is fair. Even so, that would be 4 new sprues. We could add two entire new plastic regiments and still only be roughly equal to the Ork range!
The point about upgrade kits is a good one. Looking at the current main regiments, some stand out as being very unique and requiring full kits- Vostroyans, Steel Legion, and Valhallans in particular. All three are wearing long coats, but of different lengths with very different accessories and equipment. Mordians can be readily kitbashed from existing parts (as shown in the latest AM Codex), but this would be hugely expensive for a full force, even with bitz sellers, because only a few Cadian parts are suitable:
I think a conversion kit is... possible, especially if a new Cadian kit had separate shoulder pads that were not moulded into the arms, but would be difficult.
Tallarn and Tanith, however, more readily lend themselves to a conversion kit of somekind. Tanith are basically Catachans with a headswap, cloak, and new knife. Some of the torsos don't match well, but clever cloak design and the odd replacement torso could mask this. Tallarn have actually already had what is basically a conversion kit for the plastic heavy weapons sprue from FW, making it 3 different regiments that share that sprue:
Spoiler:
Now, they went for entire, fully sculpted crew members to accompany the plastic weapons sprue, but it is FW. I think Tallarn could be adequately represented with a headswap, the odd torso, and some Tallarn-themed accessories. Again, this would be especially true if we got a new Cadians kit with detached shoulder pads.
Variety and modelling opportunities are the real spice of 40k- if GW could pull off something like this for AM, I reckon it would be a success. We got a taster for what updated kits for AM units would look like all the way back in 5th edition: Selected Imperial Guard regiments image (Flickr isn't hosting properly- click for a larger image).
Don't they just look awesome?
*There is an additional easy-to-build pushfit Cadian sprue, but I thought that was a bonus sprue that is fine to ignore. I have ignored pushfit sprues for all armies above. **Yes, I know that the early mark squads are designed for Heresy use too, but they are fundamentally alternate tactical squad builds.
Bloviator wrote: I think it is likely they will have Robute Gulliman reform the Astra Militarum back into the Imperial Army and enforce uniformity across the Imperium.
AKA: brand spanking new trademarkable Imperial Army
Yea in hindsight, the Rogue trader release for kill team probably gives us a snap shot of what the future IG look like. Part of me has felt the loyal 32 being for useful for a competative list is GW wants to dump as much old product as possible before a reboot.
Brotherjanus wrote: A standardized kit is a redesign of the faction. That is really the only way to get rid of the second party model makers that supply models for regiments GW doesn't support but are in the codex. That is what I meant by the range being constrained by the fluff and codex. If they want to only produce Cadian troops then Cadian troops are all there is galaxy wide.
I've often thought it would make sense, Gulliman is now running the show, and he's famous as a logistian, and what simplifies logistics more then a universal kit for everyone? I suspect once GW (and Gulliman in universe) is happy with the deployment of primaris Marines. Gw/gulliman will shift their focus to the guard.
Brotherjanus wrote: A standardized kit is a redesign of the faction. That is really the only way to get rid of the second party model makers that supply models for regiments GW doesn't support but are in the codex. That is what I meant by the range being constrained by the fluff and codex. If they want to only produce Cadian troops then Cadian troops are all there is galaxy wide.
I've often thought it would make sense, Gulliman is now running the show, and he's famous as a logistian, and what simplifies logistics more then a universal kit for everyone? I suspect once GW (and Gulliman in universe) is happy with the deployment of primaris Marines. Gw/gulliman will shift their focus to the guard.
Except, he didn't do that. Otherwise, he'd rework HBs, Shotguns and Scout Sniper Rifles to all fire standard Bolter Rounds. One kind of ammunition is a lot easier logistically than 3 or more. Similar issue with Flamers, Plasma and Meltas.
Brotherjanus wrote: A standardized kit is a redesign of the faction. That is really the only way to get rid of the second party model makers that supply models for regiments GW doesn't support but are in the codex. That is what I meant by the range being constrained by the fluff and codex. If they want to only produce Cadian troops then Cadian troops are all there is galaxy wide.
I've often thought it would make sense, Gulliman is now running the show, and he's famous as a logistian, and what simplifies logistics more then a universal kit for everyone? I suspect once GW (and Gulliman in universe) is happy with the deployment of primaris Marines. Gw/gulliman will shift their focus to the guard.
Because it will be a logistical nightmare - not to mention political nightmare - for all the forgeworlds that supply the guard regiments to change production. And because of the STC base everything is to some degree cross compatible anyway.
Bobthehero wrote: Gulliman takes too much space in 40k already, keep him out of the Guard business.
Agreed. If anything, with the loss of Creed to Trazyn's pokeballs, Kell dying and a lot of the IG special characters' fates being ambiguous with the opening of the rift, it seems like an ideal time to bring forth some mortal heroes into the fray from the guard. Bastonne taking the reins of what's left of Cadia's leadership would be cool, as would updating Yarrick's current crusade in hunting down Ghazzy. Maybe a spotlight on Scion leaders or another Lord Solar/Warmaster to get things going.
Seeing the genestealer cults to me makes it obvious we will be getting new guard this year or next, GW love to re use CAD and those models are perfect for a guard makeover, the more unique stuff not so much of course.
Bloviator wrote: I think it is likely they will have Robute Gulliman reform the Astra Militarum back into the Imperial Army and enforce uniformity across the Imperium.
AKA: brand spanking new trademarkable Imperial Army
Oh god, I can totally see them do that
Gulliman + ultra plot favoritism = it will happen.
God pls no though.
Fix up the cadian modells, and the catachans then maybee bring out Mordians or another standardised guard that is interchangeable.
I would love for the Militarum Tempestus to be spun off into their own army again, with different regiment rules for them, and to receive an expanded mini line with bikes, buggies, heavy weapon teams etc. Think of an official, more elite replacement for the Elysian drop troop list.
If they made an infantry, command and heavy weapon kit for the cadian, catachan, vostroyian, mordian, valhallan, tallarn and armageddon regiments, that would be 21 plastic kits. Could GW support that? I mean...it seems like a lot...but then you look at the marines and Stormcast...plus think of the kit bashing potential!
Future War Cultist wrote: I would love for the Militarum Tempestus to be spun off into their own army again, with different regiment rules for them, and to receive an expanded mini line with bikes, buggies, heavy weapon teams etc. Think of an official, more elite replacement for the Elysian drop troop list.
If they made an infantry, command and heavy weapon kit for the cadian, catachan, vostroyian, mordian, valhallan, tallarn and armageddon regiments, that would be 21 plastic kits. Could GW support that? I mean...it seems like a lot...but then you look at the marines and Stormcast...plus think of the kit bashing potential!
Mordians are anyways in it allready, they basically are Officers.
As for tempestus split off again? Ehh, do we really need another minidex?
Future War Cultist wrote: I would love for the Militarum Tempestus to be spun off into their own army again, with different regiment rules for them, and to receive an expanded mini line with bikes, buggies, heavy weapon teams etc. Think of an official, more elite replacement for the Elysian drop troop list.
If they made an infantry, command and heavy weapon kit for the cadian, catachan, vostroyian, mordian, valhallan, tallarn and armageddon regiments, that would be 21 plastic kits. Could GW support that? I mean...it seems like a lot...but then you look at the marines and Stormcast...plus think of the kit bashing potential!
Really they don't need to be all separate kits. You can probably combine 2-3 regiments into one kit.
e.g. A basic infantry squad of cadians, can become Tallarns with a simple extra set of heads, and if the shoulder pads are not attached to the arms; or can become Armageddon with a gas mask head. Mordians could be added too with a set of torsos, and heads.
Vostroya and Valhalla are combined, with only different torso and head options for each.
Catachan is a bit awkward, though.
If the parts are interchangeable you can then make a bunch of your own custom regiments by mixing and matching. Sure its not perfect and there's some crossover, but that'd be the simplest way to get as many of them out there, in fewer actual kits.
As demand for converion/whole regiment kits is quite popular, I wonder if it would be viable economically for GW, considering the amount of 3rd party bits we can use. Even a single mould is a huge investment.
Now, they make 6 sprues for 2 main ranges (Cadian and Catachan - Command, Heavy weapons, Infantry). Investing in 15 more would cost a load of money, effectively dividing all the customers between 7 model ranges instead of 2, all along with a inevitable price hike for all kits, due to lowered demand for individual sprues.
To be honest, most regiments can be effectively represented by switching one or two bits, on a Cadian miniature. Maybe except Vostroyans, but Reptilian Overlords may be filling that gap soon.
And comparing Guard to Marines is like comparing eating cheeseburgers to veggies. One may be better, healthier, more beneficial, but the other will always be more popular.
I've talked about this elsewhere, but right now? I think the future is this:
Cadians remain the basis of the Guard's miniature range. The Heavy Weapon crew frame gets reworked to match a reworked Cadian sprue. Sleeves rolled up arms, some variations on flak armor, forage/patrol caps, etc. Stuff that would still allow for the sprue to get packed in with any potentially unredone Basilisks.
Reworked Cadian Shock Troop set also gets a few new weapon options. We've been seeing art for at least 3-4 years now of Cadians rocking backpack mounted lasguns. At this point, I'm going to flatout say we'll see Infantry or Veteran Squads getting an option for a Hellgun again.
Catachans see a reworked Infantry Squad and Heavy Weapons Squad.
Scions see an added Sentinel variant and Heavy Weapons Squads.
Ratlings get split into Sniper and Saboteur variants. I'm definitely feeling like Rein and Raus were a 'sneak peek' in that regards.
I'm also leaning towards Special Weapon Squads going away and Infantry/Veteran Squads just getting a bit more flexibility as to how they take stuff. I'm really hopeful for the idea of Canids though.
You're not getting "formations" or anything that alter the slot of where things are.
And really. Look at the art in the Guard book, pg 52+53(the two page "Super-Heavy Tanks" spread). That style of backpack lasgun has shown up for the past 4-5 years at least.
Most recently? It was as part of the art with the Imperial Knight on a snow planet with a squad of Guardsmen in front of it.
Dai wrote:... and that if anything it is about making the rules fit the fluff for the unit rather than the other way around.
Only in the vaguest sense, e.g. assault orientated units being good at assault. It has been stated numerous times (often in frustrated tones) by ex-GW employees that the process starts with the sales team figuring out what will sell well, the concept design team then drawing up ideas based on that, who then pass it to the model designers, who then pass it to the dev team to make the rules and write the fluff, which in turn is subject to approval by the higher ups to make sure it will sell. Fluff is consistently one of the last considerations on the list, because it's the least related to how well something sells.
Bloviator wrote:I think it is likely they will have Robute Gulliman reform the Astra Militarum back into the Imperial Army and enforce uniformity across the Imperium. AKA: brand spanking new trademarkable Imperial Army
Probably. Industrial tooling is expensive. Even the SM lines are somewhat limited when you think about how popular they are and how much of a ridiculous percentage of their sales SM make up. Making 8 different base units, 8 command squads, 8 heavy weapons teams etc to replace the existing tooling is unlikely. I think you're on the money with this idea they'll probably go for a standard look and maybe release a sprue set with different heads on it.
I reckon they could run 6 Guard lines simultaneously. After all, GW seems to have had no issues producing the multiple different forms of plastic Space Marine captain, a model most people will only need a couple of, not to mention their Chapter-specific variants.
Several of those have been limited edition too, so clearly GW feels they can make a profit off a short production run with a plastic model.
Haighus wrote: I reckon they could run 6 Guard lines simultaneously. After all, GW seems to have had no issues producing the multiple different forms of plastic Space Marine captain, a model most people will only need a couple of, not to mention their Chapter-specific variants.
There's onlytwo Captains that are regular stock, available by themselves.
With regards to the "Chapter Specific Variants"...there's notas many as you seem to be suggesting.
Also worth pointing out that the 'basic' Space Marine Captain? He's web only at this point...and the Deathwatch Watch Captain is a model from the Start Collecting Marines and the old Strike Force Ultima box with an upgrade frame pushed in there.
Several of those have been limited edition too, so clearly GW feels they can make a profit off a short production run with a plastic model.
They really haven't had that many "limited edition" plastic Captains. At this point, it's just the Primaris with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol off the top of my head.
There is also the the Power Armored Captain that isn't available outside of that...but he was part of another set(Shadow Force Solaq) which just didn't do well and let's be honest that model is kind of trash.
With all that said, I don't think they really could run 6 Guard lines simultaneously. You're trying to use an example that spreads across 4-5 armies(of which they tend to be fairly popular to begin with) that doesn't require an exceedingly high model count to start with to justify claims that an army which does require a high model count(thus higher production numbers and more wear+tear on molds and machinery) could somehow support 6 lines running at once.
Kcalehc wrote: Really they don't need to be all separate kits. You can probably combine 2-3 regiments into one kit.
e.g. A basic infantry squad of cadians, can become Tallarns with a simple extra set of heads, and if the shoulder pads are not attached to the arms; or can become Armageddon with a gas mask head. Mordians could be added too with a set of torsos, and heads.
Vostroya and Valhalla are combined, with only different torso and head options for each.
Catachan is a bit awkward, though.
If the parts are interchangeable you can then make a bunch of your own custom regiments by mixing and matching. Sure its not perfect and there's some crossover, but that'd be the simplest way to get as many of them out there, in fewer actual kits.
Hawky wrote: As demand for converion/whole regiment kits is quite popular, I wonder if it would be viable economically for GW, considering the amount of 3rd party bits we can use. Even a single mould is a huge investment.
Now, they make 6 sprues for 2 main ranges (Cadian and Catachan - Command, Heavy weapons, Infantry). Investing in 15 more would cost a load of money, effectively dividing all the customers between 7 model ranges instead of 2, all along with a inevitable price hike for all kits, due to lowered demand for individual sprues.
To be honest, most regiments can be effectively represented by switching one or two bits, on a Cadian miniature. Maybe except Vostroyans, but Reptilian Overlords may be filling that gap soon.
And comparing Guard to Marines is like comparing eating cheeseburgers to veggies. One may be better, healthier, more beneficial, but the other will always be more popular.
bouncingboredom wrote: ]Probably. Industrial tooling is expensive. Even the SM lines are somewhat limited when you think about how popular they are and how much of a ridiculous percentage of their sales SM make up. Making 8 different base units, 8 command squads, 8 heavy weapons teams etc to replace the existing tooling is unlikely. I think you're on the money with this idea they'll probably go for a standard look and maybe release a sprue set with different heads on it.
Good point guys. Thinking about it, you could get so much mileage out of a basic Cadian kit. Of the top of my head, you could get Mordians, Tallarns, Praetorians (Remember them?) and possibly Steel Legion too (I've seen conversions).
Here's a question; how viable would it be to have the shoulder pads and possibly even the body armor be optional? Because if they could, the sky's the limit. Cadians would have the pads and armor attached, Tallarns would have the pads but no armor...Mordians/Praetorians would have neither with added Epaulettes...Steel Legion have none period. If it could be done.....
Haighus wrote: I reckon they could run 6 Guard lines simultaneously. After all, GW seems to have had no issues producing the multiple different forms of plastic Space Marine captain, a model most people will only need a couple of, not to mention their Chapter-specific variants.
There's onlytwo Captains that are regular stock, available by themselves.
With regards to the "Chapter Specific Variants"...there's notas many as you seem to be suggesting.
Also worth pointing out that the 'basic' Space Marine Captain? He's web only at this point...and the Deathwatch Watch Captain is a model from the Start Collecting Marines and the old Strike Force Ultima box with an upgrade frame pushed in there.
Several of those have been limited edition too, so clearly GW feels they can make a profit off a short production run with a plastic model.
They really haven't had that many "limited edition" plastic Captains. At this point, it's just the Primaris with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol off the top of my head.
There is also the the Power Armored Captain that isn't available outside of that...but he was part of another set(Shadow Force Solaq) which just didn't do well and let's be honest that model is kind of trash.
With all that said, I don't think they really could run 6 Guard lines simultaneously. You're trying to use an example that spreads across 4-5 armies(of which they tend to be fairly popular to begin with) that doesn't require an exceedingly high model count to start with to justify claims that an army which does require a high model count(thus higher production numbers and more wear+tear on molds and machinery) could somehow support 6 lines running at once.
Eh? Higher use means higher profit margins surely? If moulds wearing out is an issue, then spreading the load over 6 sets is surely better than the current two? Don't follow your logic there at all
Space Marine Captains in plastic:
Old SM Commander box
Space Marine Captain clampack with combi-grav and power sword
LESM Captain with stormbolter and powerfist
LESM Captain with plasma pistol and powerfist (required buying the previous LE Captain to purchase)
SM Captain with power sword and plasma pistol (originally in the LE Shadow Force Solaq box)
SM Captain in Terminator armour (originally in a LE box too)
SM Primaris Captain.
Chapter specific variants:
Deathwatch Captain
Blood Angels Terminator Captain
I'm not going to include the Space Wolf characters.
Then there are at least three plastic starter-set Captains over the last 4 editions (2 generic, one DA).
That is a LOT of plastic kits for one model, some in limited runs, all over the same timespan GW has produced 7 total sprues for Guardsmen infantry, with a further 5 for AM specialist infantry. I'm not saying there should be less SM Captains (I own almost all of those Captains), but clearly GW reckons they can still make a profit on a heavily saturated unit option, or they wouldn't keep making Captain variants, and now Lieutenants (which are in the same role now).
Remember that AM sprues cover a lot of different units- an infantry kit can make 4 different unit options. AM doesn't need many sprues per design to make a functioning alternate build.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the two options are directly comparable, but I think GW is fully capable of making a plastic sprue for each major regiment and profiting from it.
Here's a question; how viable would it be to have the shoulder pads and possibly even the body armor be optional? Because if they could, the sky's the limit. Cadians would have the pads and armor attached, Tallarns would have the pads but no armor...Mordians/Praetorians would have neither with added Epaulettes...Steel Legion have none period. If it could be done.....
Not too much I think. It would be way easier to make 2 separate torsos, one with armor and the other without, as the flat armor alone would be rather a tiny and thin piece of plastic. Making shoulder pads separated, as it is on vehicle sprues would work, as you can replace it with epaulets or some other pads/stuff.
Eh? Higher use means higher profit margins surely? If moulds wearing out is an issue, then spreading the load over 6 sets is surely better than the current two? Don't follow your logic there at all
Understand: They aren't renting machine time like (seemingly) most other companies do. They own the machines and the moulds. They have to pay upkeep, training, etc.
There's no "spreading the load over 6 sets" when you can't guarantee that they all will sell. As of right now? We have 6 plastic Guard Infantry kits: Catachan and Cadian Company Command, Heavy Weapon, and Infantry Squads. Unless we see a significant rejigging of the contents of those kits to where Heavy Weapon Squads can just flatout be left out of the mix and the parts are instead in the Infantry Squad box? Your "6 sets" is actually 18.
Space Marine Captains in plastic: Old SM Commander box
Direct Only.
Space Marine Captain clampack with combi-grav and power sword
Direct Only.
LESM Captain with stormbolter and powerfist LESM Captain with plasma pistol and powerfist (required buying the previous LE Captain to purchase)
Yeah, and remember that the first one wasn't really a thing that people "bought". You got them by ordering a certain amount during the holidays...which then allowed for you to get the other one.
SM Captain with power sword and plasma pistol (originally in the LE Shadow Force Solaq box) SM Captain in Terminator armour (originally in a LE box too)
You're confusing "limited run" with "limited edition".
These two were not "limited editions". The models are still available. The boxed sets for them were either part of a campaign splash release(Shadow Force Solaq) or a Christmas bundle(Strike Force Ultima).
SM Primaris Captain.
Primaris != "old" Marines.
Chapter specific variants: Deathwatch Captain
Named character--Artemis.
Blood Angels Terminator Captain
Revamp of the Space Hulk sculpt.
I'm not going to include the Space Wolf characters.
Just for fun, I will: Krom, Ulrik, and the Iron Priest are the only ones in plastic that don't have multiple build options. Grimnar is a kit of either him on foot or with his crazy grav-sled.
Out of the 17 Space Wolves HQ options currently available by themselves, only 4 are specifically Space Wolves in plastic. There's also an as of yet unreleased Lieutenant option.
Then there are at least three plastic starter-set Captains over the last 4 editions (2 generic, one DA).
Starter sets being the operative word there.
Those sets are loss leaders. That's why the kits are generally limited in terms of equipment and things of that nature.
That is a LOT of plastic kits for one model, some in limited runs, all over the same timespan GW has produced 7 total sprues for Guardsmen infantry, with a further 5 for AM specialist infantry. I'm not saying there should be less SM Captains (I own almost all of those Captains), but clearly GW reckons they can still make a profit on a heavily saturated unit option, or they wouldn't keep making Captain variants, and now Lieutenants (which are in the same role now).
But they aren't making Captain variants now.
The last one was the Primaris Captain. There's been variations on that as promotional models, but otherwise we're not exactly drowning in them now are we? And as for Primaris Lieutenants? There really haven't been that many. One promotional model, one for each of the 'major' Chapters(Ultramarines in Wake the Dead, Wolves in Tooth & Claw, DA and BA as solo blisters when their books dropped), and then the two from the starter set.
So all told we have the various profiles covered in one way or another, then there's some Chapter specific frippery for the Primaris side of things. And then that Commander box you were pointing out earlier? That is literally billed as how to make non-Primaris Lieutenants.
Remember that AM sprues cover a lot of different units- an infantry kit can make 4 different unit options. AM doesn't need many sprues per design to make a functioning alternate build.
An infantry kit can make 3 different unit options: Conscripts, Veterans, and Infantry Squads. Command Squads can have vastly different loadouts and either need options added to the sprues that would be ridiculously overcrowding things or options need to be cut out of the Command Squads to make things work. The same goes for Heavy Weapon Squads and Special Weapon Squads.
And realistically, Conscripts should just be given their own damn kit. Strip them of the <Regiment> keyword and make it so they are Officio Prefectus instead(which is actually fluffier for everyone given the garbage tier fluff they keep shoveling out for Conscripts) and everyone's a winner.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the two options are directly comparable, but I think GW is fully capable of making a plastic sprue for each major regiment and profiting from it.
Then why would you use the comparison to begin with?
Could they do it? Sure! They could also do what it looks like they've been doing and slowly move Regiments to look like they actually all have a standardized kit with occasional bits and bobs that are locally produced instead(read: what an Upgrade Pack would contain).
Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k? I sort of hope they don't so that event actually carries some meaning in the universe.
In this article they talk about the "Vigilant Guard" which I think might be what they update the cadians into (since vigilus is basically cadia anyways). Obviously vigilant guard might just mean the guard forces stationed on vigilus. I would expect them to look fairly similar to cadians since a more plain look is probably for the best but making them into a new force might make it easier to integrate some new Cawl-tech on them.
I just don't imagine GW redoing Guard without any sort of significant changes to equipment and looks. The Gloomspite Gitz sort of bucked that trend and showed that they are willing to do it but more often than not they introduce a separate unit. So I wouldn't be surprised if vigilant guard drops with assault lasguns as their primary weapons and phosphor mortars etc.
Whatever the case ends up being I really hope they do get some new troops though, even though cadians hold up fairly well you can just see how "airy" those sprues are. A newer kit would fit twice as much on it..
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k? I sort of hope they don't so that event actually carries some meaning in the universe.
Yes, because even though Cadia itself might be gone...you still have all of the Regiments that were raised from Cadia that are fighting elsewhere in the galaxy. Their whole schtick has always been that they're the most widely spread Regiments thanks to the militarized nature of the planet itself.
In this article they talk about the "Vigilant Guard" which I think might be what they update the cadians into (since vigilus is basically cadia anyways). Obviously vigilant guard might just mean the guard forces stationed on vigilus. I would expect them to look fairly similar to cadians since a more plain look is probably for the best but making them into a new force might make it easier to integrate some new Cawl-tech on them.
We know what the "Vigilant Guard" is, thanks to the Vigilus book. It's a Guard founding on Vigilus that is better known for "their unwavering faith in the Emperor" than their skill at arms. Battalions of Cadian Gate survivors were brought to Vigilus specifically to train the Vigilant Guard.
TLDR version of things:
Vigilant Guard weren't exceedingly well-trained from the outset but were forced to have Ministorum elements within their Regiments because of reasons. The description of them is a bit closer to the description of those Regiments that the Ministorum are extremely close to skirting the lines of outright owning them than anything else.
I just don't imagine GW redoing Guard without any sort of significant changes to equipment and looks. The Gloomspite Gitz sort of bucked that trend and showed that they are willing to do it but more often than not they introduce a separate unit. So I wouldn't be surprised if vigilant guard drops with assault lasguns as their primary weapons and phosphor mortars etc.
Whatever the case ends up being I really hope they do get some new troops though, even though cadians hold up fairly well you can just see how "airy" those sprues are. A newer kit would fit twice as much on it..
Unfortunately, using Age of Sigmar as an example is a bit counter to the trends we've seen in 40k. The better example would be the Tau Fire Warriors, where we saw the addition of the "Breacher" variant to the box.
I'd also legitimately be surprised to see Infantry Squads retain access to Mortars. It seems like a slam dunk way to neuter a lot of the whining about Infantry Squads.
I'm hoping that the look of rein and rause from blackstone fortrress and the troops from the Elucidian star striders from the the rogue trader box will herald the direction of future guard deaigns to come. Very cool designs for both.
Kanluwen wrote: Why would the House troops for a Rogue Trader be the look for Guard models in the future?
Rein and Raus, I totally could see though. If only to highlight that they aren't part of the "Regiment" proper.
The two designs work for the general trend in Imperial power armor ; the house troops would make the more elite, baroque armored and “mote important” troops (and be a nice replacement for the Vostroyans, who had a similar vibe to them) and the rein & rause style mimics the primaris- a classic redesign with some nodern sensibilities and aesthetics for what “future military designs” might be like.
Bobthehero wrote: Gulliman takes too much space in 40k already, keep him out of the Guard business.
Gulliman isn't just the Ultramarine Primarch, he's the "supreme commander of the Imperium armed forces" the "commander in chief" as it where. thus any changes to ANY part of the IoM will occur under his watch, doesn't mean he'll be super involved but that somewhere along the lines he'd sign off on it.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I'm hoping that the look of rein and rause from blackstone fortrress and the troops from the Elucidian star striders from the the rogue trader box will herald the direction of future guard deaigns to come. Very cool designs for both.
Damn straight. Not only do I hope that they set the example for a possible future plastic Ratling sniper/saboteur kit, but I also hope that their chest plate design features in future IG infantry plastics. It’s a good example of a gothic sci fi design that suits the Imperium well.
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
I would expect that there will be several ranges updated in plastic and new ones created. I'm at a loss with the Cadians though -their relegation in the setting could indicate the range will be discontinued, that GW are moving towards less generic-looking soldiers and more heavily themed ones like Vostroyans, Tallarn, etc. On the other hand Cadians are probably the long standing best-sellers of the guardsmen model range, so why would they retire them?
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
I mean... Were you asleep for a while? You missed the whole Blackstone Fortress being dropped on it? 13th Black Crusade?
I suggest watching a Let's play of the Prolgue to the new Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 game. That sumerises nicely why there is no Cadia anymore.
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
"Cadia Stands" is the novel if you want details.
I'd love to see a re-conceptualization of the Guard line with a plan from the start to make them multi-regimental. It seems fairly simple to make each infantry/command/heavy weapon squad box cover at least 3 regiments without much trouble.
edit - my post was already addressed on the previous page.
I think you could have a single kit make Cadians, Tallarns, Steel Legion Mordians and Praetorians with minimal differences; sculpt the arms with epaulettes and add separate shoulder pauldrons. Alternative heads for the different regiments will do; paint will provide the rest of the distinction.
I was also thinking you could have a sprue of basic lasgun-armed infantry, a sprue of heavy and special weapons and a command sprue - that should be enough to make all the squad types in various combinations. Conscripts don't need different models any more than Veterans do (although some bits and pieces of equipment you can add to veterans would be good if there's room on the sprues - knives, bandoliers, etc.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Yea in hindsight, the Rogue trader release for kill team probably gives us a snap shot of what the future IG look like. Part of me has felt the loyal 32 being for useful for a competative list is GW wants to dump as much old product as possible before a reboot.
eh. I dunno. I think they were meant to look like a rogue traders retinue, fancier. A bit more atompunk than the norm of how I imagine guardsmen - more utilitarian on the whole. I think the Scions might more represent the approach for any new IG they do. Though I really am not too much a fan of them.
I hope they do something more 'generic' like the Cadians. The cadians are getting a little long in the tooth but were a good basic outfit to adapt to a host of different ends for unique conversions. I just would like a better looking updated cadians, with more detail on them in place of the rather bland almost smoothed out surfaces of them now. They could just do that, again, and add more upgrade/customization bits like forge world does for vets and stuff. Model designers could make shoudler pads swappable, even chest plates. Heads. Snap on trench coat options in optional packs. etc.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Yea in hindsight, the Rogue trader release for kill team probably gives us a snap shot of what the future IG look like
The helmets, shoulderpad, kneepads, and coats on the Veterans are all far more ornate than what GW currently produces for Cadians, even if you chalk up a lot of it being for a Rogue Trader vs standard trooper.
The Death Cult Assassin is hugely revamped from the =Inquisitor= design.
I can totally see GW doing something along these lines going forward.
Love those models. I especially like how the lasguns are the exact same model as the Cadians one (minis the stock) but are slimmer and better proportioned. Hopefully a sign of things to come.
I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously). The Imperial version of these guys are even featured in a piece of artwork in, I believe, the Knight Codex. I WISH I could find that artwork now, it has three definitely non-Cadian guardsmen in it that look exactly like the Blackstone Renegades, but non-renegade.
I would love to buy a few squads of guard that looked like the starstriders. Or I'd like to see them redo guard somewhat similiar to the orlock sculpts. I was dissapointed the Orlocks use autoguns, I really like their models otherwise.
I for one would really like to see GW lean into the WWI aesthetic that the tanks incorporate. Greatcoats, Gas-masks. Stuff that would make it easy to paint the hundred or so guardsmen that an army generally needs. I know DKoK exists, but cheap also needs to come into play when they expect you to buy models in those quantities.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously). The Imperial version of these guys are even featured in a piece of artwork in, I believe, the Knight Codex. I WISH I could find that artwork now, it has three definitely non-Cadian guardsmen in it that look exactly like the Blackstone Renegades, but non-renegade.
Page 65 Imperial Knight codex, but they do just look like updated cadian not in heroic scale
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously).
Take away the skullz and spikez and skullz on spikez, and it's clearly an update to the Cadians
Stormonu wrote: I think the top brass has recognized they’ve got too many SKU’s (or equivalent) and they need to do some consolidation and streamlining.
If that were the case we wouldn't be getting things like 6 completely different buggie/trakk releases for Orks.
I have very little faith in GW giving the Guard a damn thing anytime soon. They're an army that routinely goes through entire editions without a new codex (happened to them during 4th and 7th edition, though 3rd had two).
You see how the weapons of the Intercessor and Hellblaster kit can be made into 1 of three different kind of guns? Think they could do that for the lasguns of an IG kit? The same gun but in different guides?
Future War Cultist wrote: What do you think GW will do it with? Especially Infantry wise. Because as I look at the current range of ancient plastic cadians/even more ancient plastic catachans, with the awkward needing to swap out minis from sets to put in heavy weapon teams bought from another kit, and the total lack of options available to them (not just in the kit but rules wise too; Necromunda gangers have a wider range of weaponry) and the discontinued metals and so on, I just think the range is in a bit of a mess at the moment.
The vehicles/Scions are doing ok. And then you have plastic Ogryns of course. But the pyskers and ratlings are still metal/finecast, as are the regimental advisers. And in my opinion, the whole way that the range is presented is entirely out of date. Most kits today I think come with every option available don’t they? You don’t need to buy other kits to get unavailable parts for your units, just extra models.
And there’s a question of bases; if you could somehow cram a heavy weapon kit into a standard infantry set, you’d need to include the bigger base. However, what if the person doesn’t want to assemble them as a heavy weapon team? Will the set include spare bases for that?
There’s the question of regiments too; can gw continue to mantain multiple regiment kits? No other army is as varied in appearance as the IG, but can that justify making multiples of the same unit? It’s funny that in a way, we’ve never had more official easy to use IG customisation options available (skitarri, scions, ‘stealer cults, every Necromunda gang, AoS free peoples, the cadians and catachans etc.) but what will be the IG standard going forward? Personally I think it should be Necromunda regiments, as I said in another thread.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Guard gets a make over al a Primaris Marines. The core theme of the army will remain, massed low strength shots and big tanks, arty and such. But the aestetic will change to reflect something more modern, maybe even like the Rouge Trader guardsmen.
@Kanluwen, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the feasibility of having more regiments kits. However, because it is becoming a sort of sub-thread within the thread, I've spoilered below:
Eh? Higher use means higher profit margins surely? If moulds wearing out is an issue, then spreading the load over 6 sets is surely better than the current two? Don't follow your logic there at all
Understand: They aren't renting machine time like (seemingly) most other companies do. They own the machines and the moulds. They have to pay upkeep, training, etc.
There's no "spreading the load over 6 sets" when you can't guarantee that they all will sell.
As of right now? We have 6 plastic Guard Infantry kits: Catachan and Cadian Company Command, Heavy Weapon, and Infantry Squads. Unless we see a significant rejigging of the contents of those kits to where Heavy Weapon Squads can just flatout be left out of the mix and the parts are instead in the Infantry Squad box? Your "6 sets" is actually 18.
I am fully aware of the number of sets needed- three new sprues per Regiment (see above post). I just don't think that is an insurmountable investment if done over several years.
My understanding of basic model economics is that plastic moulds have a high investment cost, and relatively low operating cost with a long lifespan. Therefore, if you are managing to max the lifespan on your moulds, you have made bank. If you have to replace your single Cadian sprue 6 times, or your 6 different regiments once each, the only difference in costs is development costs to create 6 different sprue designs (somewhat reduced by the concepts already existing), and some increased logistics costs due to 6 different boxes. But the mould costs are going to be identical. Even if you end up replacing the Cadian mould 7 times in the time the others get replaced once, that surely is no different to replacing the Cadian mould 11 times as otherwise.
The primary consideration is whether they will sell enough sprues to reach their investment over the lifetime. I don't have access to GW's data of course, but I can look at other models they have produced for inferences as to how affordable it is for them to chuck out a plastic sprue. This is precisely why I looked at SM Captains, because here we had a solid, well loved pair of sprues with most of the options available to a Space Marine Commander already available. Then GW preceded to release a series of mostly cosmetic options for replacement Captains. Very, very few other GW products have received this treatment for comparison.
Now, Captains (especially the two limited releases) are not especially high-volume releases. They only fill one role within a list, which most people need few of in comparison to squads. This matches the typical economics for resin/metal miniatures of small production runs, not the typical plastic one of large production runs, yet GW did it anyway. That is why I looked at Captains. AM armies also tend to be very large due to the low points costs, further bolstering the numbers.
Space Marine Captains in plastic:
Old SM Commander box
Direct Only.
Space Marine Captain clampack with combi-grav and power sword
Direct Only.
I fail to see why direct only is of any relevance to this discussion? The question is not about availability, but how much GW has invested in producing multiple versions of the same model vs the profits recouped from that investment. The fact these models are direct only bears no relevance to the discussion at all of how many different IG builds could be released by GW- they could even move older kits, like the Catachans, to direct only in a directly comparable move.
LESM Captain with stormbolter and powerfist
LESM Captain with plasma pistol and powerfist (required buying the previous LE Captain to purchase)
Yeah, and remember that the first one wasn't really a thing that people "bought". You got them by ordering a certain amount during the holidays...which then allowed for you to get the other one.
Fair, so it ended up being a large-production run loss-leader. The second one though was much less available and in a release pattern much more typical of metal/resin miniatures.
SM Captain with power sword and plasma pistol (originally in the LE Shadow Force Solaq box)
SM Captain in Terminator armour (originally in a LE box too)
You're confusing "limited run" with "limited edition".
These two were not "limited editions". The models are still available. The boxed sets for them were either part of a campaign splash release(Shadow Force Solaq) or a Christmas bundle(Strike Force Ultima).
Probably, but I was referring to the boxsets, not the Captains. I think all of those sets bar the most recent have eventually had the HQs released separately. They were marketed as being exclusively initially though. I was more than happy to be able to get hold of some of the Captains in later releases having missed the initial boxes.
SM Primaris Captain.
Primaris != "old" Marines.
Chapter specific variants:
Deathwatch Captain
Named character--Artemis.
Blood Angels Terminator Captain
Revamp of the Space Hulk sculpt.
I'm not going to include the Space Wolf characters.
Just for fun, I will:
Krom, Ulrik, and the Iron Priest are the only ones in plastic that don't have multiple build options. Grimnar is a kit of either him on foot or with his crazy grav-sled.
Out of the 17 Space Wolves HQ options currently available by themselves, only 4 are specifically Space Wolves in plastic.
There's also an as of yet unreleased Lieutenant option.
Then there are at least three plastic starter-set Captains over the last 4 editions (2 generic, one DA).
Starter sets being the operative word there.
Those sets are loss leaders. That's why the kits are generally limited in terms of equipment and things of that nature.
These were mostly just mentioned for completeness- the 5 Space Marine Captains were the important ones. I forgot that Artemis retained his special character status- the others were all genericised, apart from Krom. I didn't go into detail for Space Wolves because they were not genericised, not because they had loads of options.
That is a LOT of plastic kits for one model, some in limited runs, all over the same timespan GW has produced 7 total sprues for Guardsmen infantry, with a further 5 for AM specialist infantry. I'm not saying there should be less SM Captains (I own almost all of those Captains), but clearly GW reckons they can still make a profit on a heavily saturated unit option, or they wouldn't keep making Captain variants, and now Lieutenants (which are in the same role now).
But they aren't making Captain variants now.
The last one was the Primaris Captain. There's been variations on that as promotional models, but otherwise we're not exactly drowning in them now are we?
And as for Primaris Lieutenants? There really haven't been that many. One promotional model, one for each of the 'major' Chapters(Ultramarines in Wake the Dead, Wolves in Tooth & Claw, DA and BA as solo blisters when their books dropped), and then the two from the starter set.
So all told we have the various profiles covered in one way or another, then there's some Chapter specific frippery for the Primaris side of things.
And then that Commander box you were pointing out earlier? That is literally billed as how to make non-Primaris Lieutenants.
Again, I don't see how whether Captains are being made now is relevant- the point is they did make a variety, which shows that it was economically viable for GW to do that at the time. This is about economics, not current production.
Remember that AM sprues cover a lot of different units- an infantry kit can make 4 different unit options. AM doesn't need many sprues per design to make a functioning alternate build.
An infantry kit can make 3 different unit options: Conscripts, Veterans, and Infantry Squads. Command Squads can have vastly different loadouts and either need options added to the sprues that would be ridiculously overcrowding things or options need to be cut out of the Command Squads to make things work.
The same goes for Heavy Weapon Squads and Special Weapon Squads.
And realistically, Conscripts should just be given their own damn kit. Strip them of the <Regiment> keyword and make it so they are Officio Prefectus instead(which is actually fluffier for everyone given the garbage tier fluff they keep shoveling out for Conscripts) and everyone's a winner.
I was thinking IS, Veterans, Conscripts, and Special weapons squads. You can leave Special weapons out, or stick them as a second option for Command squads perhaps, but when it comes down to it, 4 sprues (1 shared between regiments) can make 6 units. That is more than most units in the game. Only three new sprues are needed per additional regiment.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the two options are directly comparable, but I think GW is fully capable of making a plastic sprue for each major regiment and profiting from it.
Then why would you use the comparison to begin with?
Could they do it? Sure! They could also do what it looks like they've been doing and slowly move Regiments to look like they actually all have a standardized kit with occasional bits and bobs that are locally produced instead(read: what an Upgrade Pack would contain).
Because the number of comparisons available are limited. The Captain situation is indicative of what GW can reasonably manage, and I consider it a less favourable option than producing Guard kits in many ways.
Also, I have already used the most direct comparison above- the multiple different aesthetic options for the Space Marine Tactical squad.
Ok, so even if GW couldn't do all 6, I reckon they can absolutely maintain at 2, and maybe expand to 3 or 4 options. That would not be unreasonable at all.
Regarding the BSF renegades, I find those very interesting because of their gear.
They are clearly based on the standard Cadian template for body armour and fatigues, but have some key differences beneath the Chaos embellishments. First and foremost, the helmets are completely different- they look more like a stahlhelm than the bulky Cadian helmets. The respirators are also notably different, coming in two styles on the renegades which are both different to the Kasrkin-style Cadian ones.
The lasguns and laspistols are also very different. The lasguns interest me greatly, because after finally locating close-ups of them on the internet, they are clearly modified Lucius-pattern lasguns, like the DKoK use. The chief difference is the renegade lasguns have a cowling added over the cooling coils on the DKoK lasguns, and the scale is a bit more chunky, but they are clearly meant to be the same design with the rifle-style stock and the circle at the end of the receiver. This is very different to the Kantrael-pattern lasgun found on the Cadians.
However, the Voidsmen-at-arms also use a version of the Kantrael-pattern lasgun, except without without the stock, which I find interesting. These two units show that GW are happy to keep some elements of the Cadian designs in newer models.
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Future War Cultist wrote: You see how the weapons of the Intercessor and Hellblaster kit can be made into 1 of three different kind of guns? Think they could do that for the lasguns of an IG kit? The same gun but in different guides?
I like this idea a lot.
This image is a good starting point, and covers most of the main regiments.
You could have the basic receiver attached to the arms, with two available powerpacks (standard and curved), three barrel ends (bulky Kantrael style, carbine style, long-las), and a scope option.
That would be very fiddly though, so I think it is unlikely given the size of lasguns. It would allow a lot of customisation though.
I got the chance to play in the Anvil Industry 'bins' at a convention in Alexandria Palace. GW would never do anything like it, but you can really go wild (why they didn't think to make Catachan and Cadian torsos and legs match up is still beyond me...).
I'd be ok with a revamped Guard line, though I don't think GW has to be in any rush. I have a sizeable Cadian force, and I honestly think they still hold up. The Scions are nice models, but I think I'd go crazy trying to make a full army out of them given the amount of detail that are packed into them! Same with the troops from the Rogue Trader set pictured above, actually. I do notice that with both the traitor guard and the Rogue Traders, the proportions of the limbs are a lot more "realistic" (ie, thinner in profile).
On the other hand, It has been quite a while since the Guard have gotten anything major that is new...I think the Scions, Ogryn/Bullgrn, and Hydra kits were the last releases, and that was 5 or 6 years ago. My personal top 3 wish list would be:
-Great Coat infantry that could be used to represent DKoK and/or Steel Legion.
-Revamped rough rider models.
-A new plastic flyer (preferably a dedicated combat flyer like a Vulture or Thunderbolt)
Ruckdog wrote: I'd be ok with a revamped Guard line, though I don't think GW has to be in any rush. I have a sizeable Cadian force, and I honestly think they still hold up. The Scions are nice models, but I think I'd go crazy trying to make a full army out of them given the amount of detail that are packed into them! Same with the troops from the Rogue Trader set pictured above, actually. I do notice that with both the traitor guard and the Rogue Traders, the proportions of the limbs are a lot more "realistic" (ie, thinner in profile).
On the other hand, It has been quite a while since the Guard have gotten anything major that is new...I think the Scions, Ogryn/Bullgrn, and Hydra kits were the last releases, and that was 5 or 6 years ago. My personal top 3 wish list would be:
-Great Coat infantry that could be used to represent DKoK and/or Steel Legion.
-Revamped rough rider models.
-A new plastic flyer (preferably a dedicated combat flyer like a Vulture or Thunderbolt)
I’m building an army now. They are very detailed and finicky.
I mean... Were you asleep for a while? You missed the whole Blackstone Fortress being dropped on it? 13th Black Crusade?
I suggest watching a Let's play of the Prolgue to the new Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 game. That sumerises nicely why there is no Cadia anymore.
11 years or there abouts yeah, it's the small things like entire world's exploding that you apparently miss out on. I thought AoS was the only shock to the system.
Theres stuff they can add to the sprues quite easily like respirators and shoulder guards to make multiple plastic regiments feasible it's just whether they will or not. People have been crying out for this kind of thing for years, I still don't see how GW will decide on it now. They seem to be wanting to change the market and the Imperial guard don't quite fit the bill, I see them giving them a whole new look before they go down a multi regiment box set.
As evidence of this: See Primaris Marines, created out of nowhere because they wanted to make better looking Marine models.
They succeeded IMO, I just wish they could ride in transports and had more customization options than they do.
So them coming up with a new "standard guard kit" based on the Cadian armor set is very easy to come up with and, in this new era of 40k, easy to justify as well.
I think this is the route that GW will go for Guard-- a single line, with other lines being relegated to upgrade kits or forgeworld.
Melissia wrote: As evidence of this: See Primaris Marines, created out of nowhere because they wanted to make better looking Marine models.
I'd argue they made Primaris Marines because most of the Marine line was already in plastic and there's only so many times you can re-do Tac/Ass/Dev squads before it starts to get stupid.
Melissia wrote: They succeeded IMO, I just wish they could ride in transports and had more customization options than they do.
But if they had more customisation then the evil 3rd party bits makers might sell things that drastically undermine GW's IP and silly adjective nounverb names!!!
they should revamp the entire range. Make them much more tactical and modern looking (think the forge world elysians) proper looking body armour, load bearing equipment and helmets, instead of the current cartoon 80s commando film caricatures. The cadian models also are particularly terrible looking. no soldier looks like that at all. the only thing I could see jarring with that is commissar models, but with a bit of work you could keep them too.
