Grey Knights basically unplayable and haven't been addressed too much in that department since their release. DO you see a fix in coming? or will they stay the course making minor Adjustments and not a whole redue.
Edit; title changed to reflect contents of the thread by ingtaer.
The real answer is who knows. It is my understanding that a faction getting two codexes in one edition is a fairly rare event and MEQ in general need a massive overhaul. I certainly hope GW shows them some love.
I suspect that GK will remain about where they are for the rest of this edition. GW haven't done two codex books in the span of one edition since 3E IIRC, and they don't appear to be interested in making major changes through CA. Every edition some armies just get hosed, and GK are it this time around.
Ive got a box full of GKs in need of painting for an army...but alas.
Did GW fix the Grey Knights? Not completely. They did do a decent patch job though. We needed the terminator points drop that the rest of marines got. They left our standard terminators as one of the worst terminator models in the game now. Maybe next year? Strikes needed some love and the fact that an intercessor is cheaper and twice as durable is a bit of a slap in the face.
but, I find myself using models I haven't used in a long time. models like my venerable dreads, land raider crusader, lascannon razorbacks, purifiers, Crowe, stern, my ancient, and my paladins. They all see regular play now. This gives my army more versatility and fun.
Also, my win rate has gone up. I don't feel we are bottom-tier anymore... and very well could have moved into mid-tier. more playtesting coming.
I think there may be some coming like the formations in vigilus defiant campaign book, but in future campaigns. looking forward to those.
It is as if they went to see those rare GK tournament list, checked what is being used. Found out it is interceptors, NDK GMs and draigo, and then lowered the points for those 3, then slaped the point drops all other marines were getting and they were done with the fix.
For the hype they were making before CA came out, the changes were cosmetic in their nature.
I don't think GK will ever be a top tier army in 8th edition, no.
If you are totally committed to running a solo Grey Knights army you are not a competitive mindset player anyway so I can't see that it matters so much. Sorry if that causes offence.
If you only have a Grey Knights army and just play with your mates then work out what handicap they need to give you both a fun game. Your opponent brings 2000 points and you bring 2200 or 2300 or whatever it takes to be a battle.
Karol wrote: It is as if they went to see those rare GK tournament list, checked what is being used. Found out it is interceptors, NDK GMs and draigo, and then lowered the points for those 3, then slaped the point drops all other marines were getting and they were done with the fix.
For the hype they were making before CA came out, the changes were cosmetic in their nature.
I half agree about the hype part, they made it sound like there was all kinds of changes. At least the list I had dropped about 300
They've already been "fixed" by CA17 and CA18, they'll probably stay at this level till the end ot the edition, like SM, AM and all the other armies that had their codex in 2017.
I think GW has gone too far with the new factions system and doesn't see armies like SM or GK as stand alone factions. GW probably sees GK like 1-3 units in an imperium soup list.
This only form a very competitive point of view, at casual levels any army can work decently, including GK.
GKs are basically done for this edition. I wouldn't expect anything more until they get a full new Codex, which likely won't be until some time in 9e.
A few caveats:
1.
It's entirely possible they continue to get points adjustments, but this alone won't really address the core issues with GKs specifically or Marines in general.
2.
They might get a sweet formation in a campaign book, which ends up being breakable and making them viable (which subsequently get nerfed if it's too popular!).
3.
There COULD be a point where they do Primaris GKs. Might not be this edition, they might still be crap, and if they ARE good it's likely that Primaris GK becomes the only viable way to run GKs, keeping old models unviable for the most part.
Nobody knows. But I guess not.
GW has already made changes to the pt costs of the some models of the GW model line.
Further changes should not be expected before the next codex.
TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.
GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.
Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.
Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.
This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.
GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.
Here is my problem with fixing Grey Knights. They aren’t broken. And before that causes people to freak out.. I don’t feel they are graded the same as other factions. People consider Custodes, Blood angels, Imperial Knights, and Guard to be “good” but none of those factions are really ever fielded as pure. Custodes it always a Triple shield capts on Jet bikes. Guard the Loyal 32, Blood Angels Slamguinius, ectra.
Grey knights are held to some let’s see them fight mono faction standard and they can’t compete there… kind of like almost no one can compete there.
I don't know why that is. I think a Supreme command with Draigo, a GMDK, and someone else could be a huge contributor on the table. Or a Venerable Dread Rifleman, with Astra aim just sweeping stuff off the table.
Really strange consistency issues with Grey Knights.
Personally I feel that Grey Knights should not be (and never should have been) a stand alone army. They should be something that any Imperial army can ally in, expressly for the purpose of smashing daemons/psykers; but against anything non-daemon/psyker they should be about as effective as a regular SM Terminator.
So you get one detachment tops, of elite troops, that are super efficient against any daemons/psykers that they directly face - but against anything else are essentially slightly more expensive SM terminators.
But that won't happen, so GK will continue to be bad for the time being, and probably much longer too.
I don't think Grey Knights can be fixed. They are an army that is virtually impossible to price without making them either underpowered or overpowered.
This is why you shouldn't build an army by taking 1-2 elite units and copy-pasting them into every FoC slot.
GKs should be a small part of a larger whole - not the entire whole.
If you're dead set against tossing half the codex in the bin, then the best thing would probably be to recombine them with the Inquisition stuff again (like in the 5e book). That way they'd at least have access to some cheap units and a better variety of weapons.
Blackie wrote: They've already been "fixed" by CA17 and CA18, they'll probably stay at this level till the end ot the edition, like SM, AM and all the other armies that had their codex in 2017.
I think GW has gone too far with the new factions system and doesn't see armies like SM or GK as stand alone factions. GW probably sees GK like 1-3 units in an imperium soup list.
This only form a very competitive point of view, at casual levels any army can work decently, including GK.
GK don't work in casual setting either. They also suck as part of soup. The same points spent on other armies is just more efficient. Worse if you take GK, and happen to run in to demons you just made your match up worse.
But the "Cheap Chaff" for Grey Knights is Guardsmen, is it not?
It is not. guardsman aren't in the GK codex, unlike tzangors. GK also lack primarchs, or synergies with other imperial armies. 1ksons by adding other chaos stuff get better. GK when you added imperial stuff, only make you want to play more of the imperial stuff and as few GK units as possible. Now am not saying 1ksons are a great army, they have their own, sometimes big problems. But 1ksons players seems to somehow be more happy then GK players.
Personally I feel that Grey Knights should not be (and never should have been) a stand alone army.
Considering that they had like 4-5 army books, it is a strang feeling IMO. Sure GK do suffer from copy unit syndrom, but the fix to it, is not the removal of the faction, but rather giving different rules to different units. If strikes and interceptors have almost identical cost, and you would never run a GK detachment to get CP, and the difference between the two is that interceptors have good extra rules and strikes don't, then strikes should get more rules. Maybe different psychic powers depending on unit, maybe stuff that is a psychic power should be an ability for a unit. Lets say astral aim is a psychic power, but dreadnoughtss have it as an ability. Baby smite as basic ability for strikes or termintors, would actually require making choice when building a GK list. Right now after taking HQs, there is little entice to take anything GK, and I don't think the goal of a rule set is to make people not want to play, and buy more models.
Grey knights only really worked/had to be a stand alone army back in 5th when they were essentially a broken/overpowered army. For most of their run they either had ally rules built into their codex or allies was just a general rule. To pretend they don't exist or aren't an option is just silly. Guardsmen are GK chaff because the IOM is pretty much one big faction.
The main issue is GW needs to clarify what is a major faction and what isn't meant to stand alone. A big issue is that the end of 5th/6th saw them give a ton more units to what should have been a sub faction to expand them to stand on their own. This has cause all kinds of issues since then.
the_scotsman wrote: Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops.
Agree with most of what you said about psychic powers - they should have a wider range to allow them more diversity per turn.
But the "Cheap Chaff" for Grey Knights is Guardsmen, is it not?
I mean, inasmuch as the cheap chaff for World Eaters is nurglings, sure. They're not in the same codex, not really fluffed to work together often, and have zero synergies - the tzaangors and cultists in the tsons codex can all benefit from the psychic buffs and stratagems the Tsons have. Even Tzeentch Daemons can occasionally synergize with stuff in the tsons codex - the stuff with the daemon keyword anyway.
Grey Knights work far worse as a mono-faction or as allied support than any competing imperial faction. There's nothing I can do with GK that I can't do better with Deathwatch, for example. Or Raven Guard. Or Blood Angels. Or Custodes.
GK suffers from relatively poor stratagems (not as bad as marines, but still down there), poor psychic powers (BA, DA, heck even SW lists I'd take over their current list), poor army tactics (it's not the worst marine tactic, but it's no contender vs Ultras Ravens Salamanders BA....etc), and poor unique stuff (all their best weaponry is SM codex copy/pastes, and they're more liimited in how they can take them than regular marines, let alone deathwatch)
The reaon people focus on how they perform monofaction is because of how thoroughly they fall apart past the ~1k point zone. They have 2-3 psychic powers worth casting over smite. They are HIGHLY dependent on stratagems they can only cast on one unit to do damage and stay alive. They drop in power dramatically once you come up to the half of the army you can't deep strike.
They, like the current iteration of Ynnari, GSC, and Codex SM/CSM, need a redesign. Other armies do "psychic army" just fine. Remake the GK in their image, and you've got the imperial "psychic faction."
To address the original question: yes, I think they will improve. There's opportunities for it to happen, with an Imperial Armor release and possibly the Vigilus campaign. Imagining some new vehicle options or formations that make them more powerful then they are currently.
At the same time, I agree that they are a little better off then they were before. While mono-GK players might not see it, the CA points drop means it's easier to bring allies to accomplish some of the things GK aren't good at. I've been running Strikes / Interceptors with a Guard detachment for about the same points I paid for GK alone. It's not like I have some ultra-competitive army, but having more command points, tanks and chaff really changes the way you play.
If you can, take a look at the old Daemonhunters Codex and think about the way people used to run Grey Knights. I enjoy fielding Inquisitorial Stormtroopers alongside the silver armor, it makes for an interesting game.
They got what they deserved for breaking a whole edition. I love their model range, hate their fluff, thank the emperor there are the deathwatch as substitutes.
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
So the current rules of a model range should be punished because their rules were "too good" in the past? I realize there's all sorts of hyperbole on the internet, but that sounds beyond foolish.
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: So the current rules of a model range should be punished because their rules were "too good" in the past? I realize there's all sorts of hyperbole on the internet, but that sounds beyond foolish.
Everyone comes out of the woodwork when someone's blaming GK but any time there's a wraithknight or riptide thread there's always those 3 or 4 people...
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).
It was often quite challenging, though Chaos Marines weren't too bad as long as you go after their lascannons and meltas first so your land raiders are basically impossible to kill. Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau were the hardest matchups, since their Lances were decent (not great) at punching through Land Raiders, and Railguns were STR10 AP1 so they punched BIG holes in you. Still though, I never had a game where I looked at the enemy and thought it was hopeless.
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).
I forgot how busted the Skimmer rules used to be. I remember how I almost lost my first game to Tau with my Necrons because I hadn't ran into Skimmers until that point and was flabbergasted.
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.
Some dude back in 2007 wrote a massive article on Bolter and Chainsword here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/101214-the-way-of-the-water-warrior/ that influenced how I played heavily. I had a lot of success with that method, and it's a pretty cool time capsule of what the edition was like reading through the article again.
GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.
GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.
I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.
I think communicating (or understanding) whether or not certain codices are "meant" to stand alone or be used with allies could help a little bit in tempering our expectations.
Though at this point, I think it's pretty clear GW thinks playing with multiple detachments from multiple codices is something of the norm, for the factions who have that option.
Not sure we've ever heard directly from the rules team whether or not certain armies are meant to be played certain ways.
Vaktathi wrote: GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.
They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.
Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.
Some dude back in 2007 wrote a massive article on Bolter and Chainsword here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/101214-the-way-of-the-water-warrior/ that influenced how I played heavily. I had a lot of success with that method, and it's a pretty cool time capsule of what the edition was like reading through the article again.
I loved that article. The water warrior was good playing advice, even today. while there are bits from it that are not current, there are good lessons to be taken away.
GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.
I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.
This. Gk's issues are much more basic. Hilariously basic, tbh.
A GK strike costs 21pts, 8pts more than the already overpriced 13ppm marine with a boltgun.
A storm bolter costs 2.
That means a strike is paying 6ppm for a single force weapon attack and 1/5 of a mortal wound.
That's goofy. They also suffer from the problem of paying three times more for their melee equipment when A) it would do less damage to nearly any target than their bolters, and B) They have about a 28% chance of getting to use it, at all out of deep strike (I call this "the terminator problem.")
They have no good defense against anti-elite weaponry, they have too few attacks to leverage their ridiculously pricy weaponry, they're slow unless you put them in expensive transports or pay CP to deep strike them...
GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.
I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.
This. Gk's issues are much more basic. Hilariously basic, tbh.
A GK strike costs 21pts, 8pts more than the already overpriced 13ppm marine with a boltgun.
A storm bolter costs 2.
That means a strike is paying 6ppm for a single force weapon attack and 1/5 of a mortal wound.
That's goofy. They also suffer from the problem of paying three times more for their melee equipment when A) it would do less damage to nearly any target than their bolters, and B) They have about a 28% chance of getting to use it, at all out of deep strike (I call this "the terminator problem.")
They have no good defense against anti-elite weaponry, they have too few attacks to leverage their ridiculously pricy weaponry, they're slow unless you put them in expensive transports or pay CP to deep strike them...
Also the army pays for mass deep strike, which also has been nerfed.
I honestly wish they would as the models look incredible. That said, I'm pretty sure they are going to end up being like the Tyranids in 7th edition. I'd love to see them get better in 8th edition, but maybe they'll be much better in 9th?
With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
fraser1191 wrote: With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
Seems like Grey Knights would be the perfect army to take on the Black Legion if that's the direction that GW is going with the 40K story. It'll be interesting to see what happens with GK next.
fraser1191 wrote: With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
Seems like Grey Knights would be the perfect army to take on the Black Legion if that's the direction that GW is going with the 40K story. It'll be interesting to see what happens with GK next.
SG
Yes. It makes sense. This would also explain the conservative point drops for GK terminators and such. I'll be honest I understand them putting giving out a formation as opposed to slapping rules into CA.
But I'm not gonna expect/hype myself for this book, hoping for GK fixes
Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.
Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.
Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?
Deathwatch is specifically there to take care of Xenos threats, so I don't think we'd see them going after the Black Legion. That said, will GK be the main choice? That's hard to say. If I remember my fluff correctly, Ordo Malleus takes care of daemon threats not traitor threats. I'm not sure if traitors would fall to Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, or just whichever Imperium army is closest and available.
If Black Legion is bringing chaos daemons with them, then yes, GK is the best option.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.
Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?
Deathwatch is specifically there to take care of Xenos threats, so I don't think we'd see them going after the Black Legion. That said, will GK be the main choice? That's hard to say. If I remember my fluff correctly, Ordo Malleus takes care of daemon threats not traitor threats. I'm not sure if traitors would fall to Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, or just whichever Imperium army is closest and available.
If Black Legion is bringing chaos daemons with them, then yes, GK is the best option.
SG
Never have I wanted demons to be.somewhere so badly.
Hopefully. If we do get something... I would expect a new power to cast. I wonder what it will be. Hopefully it isn't demon only casting, but a new buff of some sort.
In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.
I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.
It doesn't really make much sense to have 2 armies of almost the same quality. GK vs Custodes. Don't get me wrong I use to play GK quite a bit. I think whom ever or what ever group was running things with them has moved on to more stronger and powerful drugs. GK just don't cut it like Custodes in the fanatical department. GK are more of Fanatical Light.
It doesn't really make much sense to have 2 armies of almost the same quality. GK vs Custodes. Don't get me wrong I use to play GK quite a bit. I think whom ever or what ever group was running things with them has moved on to more stronger and powerful drugs. GK just don't cut it like Custodes in the fanatical department. GK are more of Fanatical Light.
I like imagining the writers of the marty stu factions as junkies chasing the dragon.
Yall got any more of that one dimensional flawless character?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.
I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.
The Daemon respawn strategy really doesn't help matters, does it? I don't have the book to hand, but do they have to pay points for the reinforcements?
From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PAGK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Probably not as a solo faction anymore. However, I think they might become a decent Allies option.
At least in Kill Team the Grey Knights do okay.
You can't use most of the units in kill team though. No NDK, no draigo, and nothing in termintor armor.
From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PAGK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.
why not make them really good at something then? Make them either super at melee or super at shoting or at psychic powers. Dark reapers don't beat knights in melee, but they are hell of a shoting unit, and they have a cost comperable to GK. Or if GW can't make them good at one of those tree, then at least make them super resilient from shoting. I saw an old codex GK had and they had some rule that wouldn't let people target them with shoting at some range at all. That would at least help them a bit.
The way I see GK right now, and I don't know much about editions before 8th, GW took away all their special stuff to streamline them. Their special ammo, someone told me their GKHQs could kill models by just doing a single wound, that their basic weapons were str 6 or 7, but then after they took all of that away they didn't give anything back. Marines at least got the primaris, Gulliman and later marine books at least had some effort put in to giving them something special. Am not saying that other marines are ok, but at least they have something to play with. GK have nothing. Their way to play is to take other armies with as few actual GK models possible. As a design idea, that is like selling someone a bad car, just that he has to pay for a ton of repairs on it and then come back and buy another car.
Nope i do not think they will. Every edition there is always that 1 army no matter what, no matter how many updates, its always gak.
But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.
I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.
Stupid question, how does one trade in a GK army, is that like a GW store only thing ?
From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PAGK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.
why not make them really good at something then? Make them either super at melee or super at shoting or at psychic powers. Dark reapers don't beat knights in melee, but they are hell of a shoting unit, and they have a cost comperable to GK. Or if GW can't make them good at one of those tree, then at least make them super resilient from shoting. I saw an old codex GK had and they had some rule that wouldn't let people target them with shoting at some range at all. That would at least help them a bit.
The way I see GK right now, and I don't know much about editions before 8th, GW took away all their special stuff to streamline them. Their special ammo, someone told me their GKHQs could kill models by just doing a single wound, that their basic weapons were str 6 or 7, but then after they took all of that away they didn't give anything back. Marines at least got the primaris, Gulliman and later marine books at least had some effort put in to giving them something special. Am not saying that other marines are ok, but at least they have something to play with. GK have nothing. Their way to play is to take other armies with as few actual GK models possible. As a design idea, that is like selling someone a bad car, just that he has to pay for a ton of repairs on it and then come back and buy another car.
They might be able to go the melee route, but their equipment includes both melee and shooting weapons so they will always be paying a bit extra, they also have psychic powers, unless that is eliminated, then you are paying some premium for that, the reason reapers work is because everything they have is directed toward shooting. So if they made the psychic powers just the force weapons, maybe but it is tough to say how it would work. As for shooting immunity it wasn't all that great honestly the Aegis rule was I believe 3D6 x 3 for spotting distance, so not really great at denying much shooting.
As for takiing things away, they replaced some things with stratagems, Force weapons used to auto-kill on a wound with a successful psychic test, but that change was made across the board. What you describe as the GK way to play has always been the way they have been most successful if we are talking about actual GKs (not vehicles). The problem is that they are marines, and as such have the same issues as other marines but then are even more expensive. Until they make some sort of break from the other marines, there is no hope of them being more.
the_scotsman wrote: TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.
GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.
Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.
Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.
This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.
GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.
You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.
A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.
The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.
- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.
H6 S4 AP- D3D only does more than double the damage a storm bolter does if the target is multiwound.
It does 28% more otherwise.
I'd pay 4 points for that, but if for example you gave my deathwatch a choice between that or the 4 point SB with SIA I'd take the Storm Bolter every time.
the_scotsman wrote: TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.
GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.
Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.
Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.
This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.
GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.
You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.
A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.
The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.
- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.
The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.
I have a much sadder read on it:
GK are already "fixed" from GW's perspective.
They don't seem interested in pushing GK. But they can't squat them. So they give them meh rules to allow them on the table, but no rules that'll make new players want to take them.
Yeah. We've reached the point where pretty much any MEQ that can take a storm bolter should, and any model that can not take a melee weapon or swap for a cheaper one does.
So the worst Terminators in the game are the ones that can take the least expensive melee weapons, and the best MEQs are the ones that can take the most storm bolters (Deathwatch and Company Vets)
Almost like you look at how much damage a GK can do against any target with its Force Weapon and the damage they can do with the Storm bolter, and you realize "huh, even if charges were AUTOMATIC and not a 28% chance out of DS, the Storm Bolter does more damage"
1A is a crime on these guys. So is not having any good way to get into combat out of deep strike on deep strike reliant units/faction.
Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.
Breng77 wrote: Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.
Somehow, despite being essentially that equivalent for Eldar, Harlequins manage just fine - probably because all their abilities aren't EXPRESSLY designed to only work on a particular enemy.
Breng77 wrote: Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.
Somehow, despite being essentially that equivalent for Eldar, Harlequins manage just fine - probably because all their abilities aren't EXPRESSLY designed to only work on a particular enemy.
Also don't forget some of the Masque Forms are at least functional (Veiled Path is pretty frickin garbage though).
It's something like S User AP-2 Dd3 user gets a bonus attack, yeah.
Their attack stat is still 1.
Because the Falchion just does more damage in melee combat against every target (including their gooftastic 15pt thunder hammer upgrade) it's pretty much seen as the default weapon, so many people think of them as having 2 attacks.
Which is why maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have 4 different 0 point melee weapon options with almost the same statline, because someone's gonna find which one is mathematically better than all the rest and just take that on everything.
But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.
To be totally fair to GW, I doubt they lied deliberately or with any malice. I'd say it's more likely that they fundamentally misunderstand what the problem is, or maybe they DO understand but they can't use Chapter Approved to really address things.
But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.
To be totally fair to GW, I doubt they lied deliberately or with any malice. I'd say it's more likely that they fundamentally misunderstand what the problem is, or maybe they DO understand but they can't use Chapter Approved to really address things.
It's something like S User AP-2 Dd3 user gets a bonus attack, yeah.
Their attack stat is still 1.
Because the Falchion just does more damage in melee combat against every target (including their gooftastic 15pt thunder hammer upgrade) it's pretty much seen as the default weapon, so many people think of them as having 2 attacks.
Which is why maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have 4 different 0 point melee weapon options with almost the same statline, because someone's gonna find which one is mathematically better than all the rest and just take that on everything.
To make the weapons slightly more even I'd probably make the Falcions AP-1. I can't think up anything else though.
The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.
Yea, you have to find a way to make melee work otherwise it's points for nothing.
Take the Rusty 17
2xEnginseer - 60
3x5 Rangers, 2xArquebus each - 195
GMDK, 2x Fists, H Icinerator, H Psycannon, Nemesis Lord - 24
Tech Marine, Power Axe, Plasma Cutter, Flamer - 67
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315
2x9 Interceptors, SB, Falchions - 414
Brotherhood Ancient, SB, Banner of Refining Flame - 92
The Inceptors can start anywhere in cover / out of sight. It doesn't matter. Turn 1 they can go to any location out of sight - especially in ITC they'll get LOS cover from being in a a building. Then the next turn they can move 12" through any terrain and charge. The Brother Captain, Ancient, and Draigo drop in. The banner changes the ancient's smite to a D6 on a roll of a 4 with 12" range (from the BC). The ancient gives +1A to all infantry. Falchions give +1A. That means 3 attacks each with full rerolls to hit from Draigo (shooting, too). The GMDK stomps in with 6 WS2 attacks that do D3+1 damage with an always on HPsycannon (lots of CP) that out performs a Catachan BC even when on the move.
There is very little that would survive that.
Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that GK have lots of fun little tricks. The have *some* viability. Are they going to take top tables? No, but you sure as hell could win some games.
The inceptors can go to any location more than 8" away from a screen turn 1, so that can limit their options. Then if they end up charging said screen then die, it is not worth it. You need to make melee happen with something of value. You are also then paying like 800 points for all that to happen.
SO you can win games against people that are not very good, but you also lose every game where you lose those inceptors turn 1 to ignores LOS shooting, or mobile shooty units.
They aren't awful as maybe a single unit in another army, but as an army I think they die far to easy.
The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.
Yea, you have to find a way to make melee work otherwise it's points for nothing.
Take the Rusty 17
2xEnginseer - 60
3x5 Rangers, 2xArquebus each - 195
GMDK, 2x Fists, H Icinerator, H Psycannon, Nemesis Lord - 24
Tech Marine, Power Axe, Plasma Cutter, Flamer - 67
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315
2x9 Interceptors, SB, Falchions - 414
Brotherhood Ancient, SB, Banner of Refining Flame - 92
The Inceptors can start anywhere in cover / out of sight. It doesn't matter. Turn 1 they can go to any location out of sight - especially in ITC they'll get LOS cover from being in a a building. Then the next turn they can move 12" through any terrain and charge. The Brother Captain, Ancient, and Draigo drop in. The banner changes the ancient's smite to a D6 on a roll of a 4 with 12" range (from the BC). The ancient gives +1A to all infantry. Falchions give +1A. That means 3 attacks each with full rerolls to hit from Draigo (shooting, too). The GMDK stomps in with 6 WS2 attacks that do D3+1 damage with an always on HPsycannon (lots of CP) that out performs a Catachan BC even when on the move.
There is very little that would survive that.
Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that GK have lots of fun little tricks. The have *some* viability. Are they going to take top tables? No, but you sure as hell could win some games.
It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.
If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.
Basically:
Battalion
Loyal 32
Battalion:
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.
I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.
It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.
If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.
Basically:
Battalion
Loyal 32
Battalion:
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.
It was a quick fudgy list. No need for strikes to really be out of LOS - they're just bolter bros. Strikes can keep the Brother Captain and smite at 24" with a 92% success rate or basically 6.4 MW per turn from those 7 units.
I actually feel like picking up a cheap GK army on eBay. I've always enjoyed playing underdog armies. My wife is going to kill me...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.
Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.
Who knows if they will fix them and I agree they need a full codices rewrite, but I definitely think they could be moved into middle tier with some minor FAQ adjustments.
I'm going to assume statline changes are out since GW seems to not want to touch the base marine statline.
But with some combination of:
Reduced strategem cost,
Stronger smites on HQs Maybe removing the 1 cast per power rule for GKs
They could be good enough for semi competitive play.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.
Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.
Oh now you have me thinking about 2 squads of Purgs with 4 flamers each...not really sure what I'd use them on, but it would be fun liquid hot death. They could open up a hole for other deepstrikers, I guess.
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.
Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.
That just ensures your 200+ model gets targeted to be killed. Stormravens are a better transport than a Razorback but I still don't trust them to actually deliver anything.
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.
Smites and maneuverability, I suppose.
A storm bolter is mathematically equivalent to a gun with half the shots, but with AP2. Bobby gets them an edge on wounding, but at a cost.
As for Smash Captains - depends on the list and how you want to tackle it. You can fling the ravens out to the side and drag the smash captain out far enough to get hit by a run and gun by the other raven.
the_scotsman wrote: TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.
GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.
Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.
Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.
This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.
GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.
You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.
A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.
The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.
- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.
The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.
Don't bother with power armour grey knighs...
Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?
Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!
+1 base attack for strikes and interceptors A +1 to charge & advance rolls relic Librarian discipline for Librarians and Voldus Access to decent FW stuff: contemptors, leviathans, deredeos. Characters get full fat smite ______ Done!
+1 base attack
A +1 to charge & advance rolls relic
Librarian discipline for Librarians and Voldus
Access to decent FW stuff: contemptors, leviathans, deredeos.
Characters get full fat smite
______
Done
Ive been throwing these Ideas around for a while and emailed GW too.
Make a new table with 3 powers exempt from psychic focus.
- psybolt ammo (instead of strat)
- sanctuary
- hammerhand
Put The Shrouding in the psychic table -1 to hit 6" bubble for infantry only
Give Grey Knighs True Grit, in 4th it gave them +1 attack, in 8th it could let GK use their storm bolters within combat like pistols(pretty cool I think).
Give GK The Ageis a 6+++ to psychic mortal wounds
That's how you fix GK in my opinion and it gives them back some of their character and cool rules from old editions.
Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?
Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!
I really like the thought of paladins, but such a huge investment scares me. Literally everything will shoot that unit and you have to clear chaff to get them somewhere useful.
I think units of 3 backed up by an apothecary or two could abuse their 3 wounds. You also get more smites and WS2 attacks from Paragons. Just keep them in cover when possible to fend off armigers and such.
Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?
Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!
As someone who plays with paladins armed with halabards, I can say this. If there was a way to get them in to melee range without opponents shoting them dead it would be awesome. Right now one big squad just gets targeted by the whole opposing army and dies. MSU squads are a bit better, but they still die very fast, even with 3w and +2sv. Am not saying that normal termintors are better, because they are not. But 10 paladins are less resilient then a castellan and people build their armies to take out those.
I wish that dreadsnoughts could use astral aim as a unit or something like that. Right now one is too easily destroyed, and taking two aside for points invested in to them, means that one is going to be a lot less efficient then the one that does cast AA.
It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.
If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.
Basically:
Battalion
Loyal 32
Battalion:
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.
It was a quick fudgy list. No need for strikes to really be out of LOS - they're just bolter bros. Strikes can keep the Brother Captain and smite at 24" with a 92% success rate or basically 6.4 MW per turn from those 7 units.
I actually feel like picking up a cheap GK army on eBay. I've always enjoyed playing underdog armies. My wife is going to kill me...
...6 MW for that price point is straight trash dude.
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.
I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.
Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.
What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.
Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.
...6 MW for that price point is straight trash dude.
Is not just 6MW and you know it.
With the GK psychic power list being what it is, their basic troop psykers really are just mortal wounds.
Like, I play Tsons as well, and I definitely don't htink of the aspiring sorcs as mortal wound generators, but therin lies the problem of GK: Your three decent powers really need to be used by your important characters.
Remember, the GK power list is:
-Purge Soul. Worse than Smite, given that (IIRC) imperium does not offer any kind of way to stack negative LD modifiers like Eldar Soup can.
-Gate of Infinity. Your first couple turns, you really must use this on your critical characters. This is Proooobably what I'd stick on the strikes, just to give them the option for added flexibility if I wasn't doing anything else with this critical power in a turn.
-Hammerhand. A walking 5-man strike squad is never going to use this, because they're never going to get near melee and even if they did...it'd be more useful to throw it on at least a unit of interceptors.
-Sanctuary. Maybe on one squad? Feels like I'm 100% always using this with my GMNDK though.
-Astral Aim. I still don't really get the point of this unless I'm a Dreadnought with las and missile.Maybe a contemptor. Do GK get psychic contemptors?
-Vortex. Yeah, I'd probably throw this on a strike squad, because you're gaining more vs a babysmite, but still i'd like it better on a model with some mobility so I could line up those big mortal wound kabooms.
And that is it. There's no Discipline of Change to give your mini-squads bonus powers, and no Hereticus Discipline to ensure that your characters and your squads aren't casting dupes. The second you cast one of these on any unit in your army, no other unit is using it that turn, and something like 1/2 of them I would classify as "critical to be using on your hard-hitting characters." A turn where I don't use Sanctuary, Hammerhand and Gate on one of my dreadknight masters, draigo, or interceptor squads is basically a turn I didn't use those squads efficiently. That leaves astral aim (veeeery weird to be using that on some storm bolter shmoes, most likely something you'd use on a dreadnought or dreadknight) and the quasi-smite powers...which is still reducing your strikes to just a couple mortal wounds.
Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.
How is it a Thunderhammer?
The champion has a nemesis force sword and cannot swap for a hammer.
4 S4 AP-3 Dd3 attacks @ WS2+ (even with +1 to wound) is no where the same as 4 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks @ WS3+
Not saying the Champion isn't good. I find him hilarious with Hammerhands + Sword Stance for +2 to wound and using GK's 1CP "Even in Death" to get 8 attacks when killed.
With the GK psychic power list being what it is, their basic troop psykers really are just mortal wounds.
Like, I play Tsons as well, and I definitely don't htink of the aspiring sorcs as mortal wound generators, but therin lies the problem of GK: Your three decent powers really need to be used by your important characters.
Remember, the GK power list is:
-Purge Soul. Worse than Smite, given that (IIRC) imperium does not offer any kind of way to stack negative LD modifiers like Eldar Soup can.
-Gate of Infinity. Your first couple turns, you really must use this on your critical characters. This is Proooobably what I'd stick on the strikes, just to give them the option for added flexibility if I wasn't doing anything else with this critical power in a turn.
-Hammerhand. A walking 5-man strike squad is never going to use this, because they're never going to get near melee and even if they did...it'd be more useful to throw it on at least a unit of interceptors.
-Sanctuary. Maybe on one squad? Feels like I'm 100% always using this with my GMNDK though.
-Astral Aim. I still don't really get the point of this unless I'm a Dreadnought with las and missile.Maybe a contemptor. Do GK get psychic contemptors?
-Vortex. Yeah, I'd probably throw this on a strike squad, because you're gaining more vs a babysmite, but still i'd like it better on a model with some mobility so I could line up those big mortal wound kabooms.
And that is it. There's no Discipline of Change to give your mini-squads bonus powers, and no Hereticus Discipline to ensure that your characters and your squads aren't casting dupes. The second you cast one of these on any unit in your army, no other unit is using it that turn, and something like 1/2 of them I would classify as "critical to be using on your hard-hitting characters." A turn where I don't use Sanctuary, Hammerhand and Gate on one of my dreadknight masters, draigo, or interceptor squads is basically a turn I didn't use those squads efficiently. That leaves astral aim (veeeery weird to be using that on some storm bolter shmoes, most likely something you'd use on a dreadnought or dreadknight) and the quasi-smite powers...which is still reducing your strikes to just a couple mortal wounds.
Oh for sure - Strikes are stuck smiting, but it's a fair bit more reliable than Rubrics - especially with perils. Rubrics I might do Firestorm, 5++, or heal so there's more flexibility there.
I'm totally onboard with them getting more spells and fixing marine spells. I'd love to see marines want librarians again.
I've always felt that GK needs to evolve their schtick in the game with the Demons.
Like if GK's are fighting a none Chaos force, then they gain the ability to declare 1 unit of the enemy force as suspected demon pawns and all anti demon ability powers work as if that unit had the keyword Demon for this game.
It would help them a bit. And be fairly fluffy in giving an excuse on why they were there in the first place.
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.
I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.
Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.
What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.
Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.
GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions
How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.
I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.
Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.
What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.
Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.
Sternguard get access to all Storm Bolters...
Sure, but they're not special ammo storm bolters. Karol was asking how GK can compare to special ammo, I assume meaning the special ammo boltguns that the sternguard come with.
If you're talking about "what about sternguard with storm bolters" well then I guess I'd say that for every strike you have to buy a sternguard AND a scout to get the same CPs. Even if you ignore their mortal wound output and their force weapons, Strikes pay 6pts for generating CPs and obsec.
I think it's tough to justify them vs Deathwatch, but vs sternguard I can see the benefit of strikes.
And they're probably the best foil to analyze strikes.
A stern with SIB or SB is 16 points.
A strike with SB and Falchions is 21.
Both of these units shoot the same. Both die the same. Both have 2 attacks.
In this scenario (also disregarding cost) Sterngaurd have no benefits over Strikes. So, ultimately we've paid 5 points for a obsec, baby smite and a more effective melee. For some they wouldn't wish to pay that, because they don't intend to melee and they don't find smite useful and that's totally legitimate. I just can't say that it isn't a fair cost for those abilities or that they aren't useful.
The only way to view GK is to take those positives and find a way to utilize them, because this is what GK is designed to do.. And after all deny +1 from any model in your army is quite a damper on armies that rely on spells like Doom.
As for Smash Captains - depends on the list and how you want to tackle it. You can fling the ravens out to the side and drag the smash captain out far enough to get hit by a run and gun by the other raven.
Thanks, very informative and helpful.
I think it's tough to justify them vs Deathwatch, but vs sternguard I can see the benefit of strikes.
DW vets make strikes look sad. Am not sure but their SB+SS dudes cost around 20pts, and don't have to spend CP to get special ammo, and their ammo is much better then then blessed ammo that costs 2CP to use. Plus they have cool gimmiks like puting a termintor to tank shots in to the unit. Not game breaking, maybe not even good, but I would love to have paladins joining termintor or strike squads.
Not saying the Champion isn't good. I find him hilarious with Hammerhands + Sword Stance for +2 to wound and using GK's 1CP "Even in Death" to get 8 attacks when killed.
Not saying that he can't do it, but in general, and I maybe doing stuff wrong. I would rather use it on something beefy like a NDK chaptermaster or draigo. They swing harder. What about running multiple apothecaries with hammers? I know some people tried that at some time. maybe the meta shifted enough for them to be an ok option.
Not saying that he can't do it, but in general, and I maybe doing stuff wrong. I would rather use it on something beefy like a NDK chaptermaster or draigo.
You can use the stratagem multiple times in a game (just once a turn). But yes. If you lose a GMNDK / Dragio and a Champion in the same turn you'd Even in Death your heavier hitter.
Yeah if I were running GK right now I would be very strongly considering just running them as Deathwatch veterans with Storm bolters and power swords.
Even if it's mechanically inferior to SB/SS vets, I'd say you'd almost always be getting better mileage out of them than running them as GK. Plus, other than the dreadknight I think Deathwatch has access to the whole of the GK roster, or at least a proxy for every unit.
In 7th edition for a long time my Dark Eldar were Corsairs because, similarly, they were models with similar playstyles and models, but just better game mechanics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GK have SOME tricks that Deathwatch don't have (First to the Fray is quite nice especially combined with the double-your-auras stratagem, heed the prognosticars is really nice on a storm shield dude, Sancuary, Hammerhand, and GOI Are all great psychic powers and the sanctic discipline in general is straight better than the Librarius discipline in every way) but the basic mechanics of deathwatch are just better, simple as that. SIA is better than every squad getting a smite. Not having 6ppm baked into every model is important. Storm shields in every squad is nice. Mixed squads with terminators are excellent.
That is something I don't understand. I have read a pdf of a GK codex, no idea from which edition, and termintor in it could either have nemezis weapons and storm bolters or thunder hammers and stormshields. Why would GW remove the option from the codex, when both the models for it and unit entry exist.
Draigos stormshield isn't even some super rare relic one, it is a plain simple stormshield with no special rules or anything that would make it one of the kind.
Bharring wrote: In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.
(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)
Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.
heed the prognosticars is really nice on a storm shield dude
You mean on Draigo. Draigo is the only GK with a Storm Shield.
Sure.
I'm changing my opinion on Best Worst Mostly GK list - the planes are a trap, screw the planes. GK have deep strike for 1cp unlimited according to the 1d4chan tactics article, if that's the case they should absolutely just be doing it up deathwatch style.
Loyal 32 for screen+ command points
2x GMNDKs with heavy psycannons and swords
Kaldor Drago
3x 10-man strike squads with 2 psilencers and falchions.
2x venerable dreadnoughts with twin las+missile launcher
1 squad of 3 hammer paladins
if the GMNDKs start on the ground everything else can deep strike, you basically just have to make sure that the warlord GMNDK stays alive to deliver the First to the Fray bubble to everybody as they deep strike in, solidly doubling their odds to be in combat.
I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. The big downside is, obviously, 3++ vs just 3+.
A couple can be las/missle and astral aim themselves from out of LOS rotating out when the other becomes too damaged.
The rest are in their face turn 2 - heavy plasma cannon and fist is 46 plus 65 or 85. Everything Is psychic so you don't have to worry about bringing support. If you could somehow fit in a couple tech priests it would be hard to deal with.
A couple can be las/missle and astral aim themselves from out of LOS rotating out when the other becomes too damaged.
The rest are in their face turn 2 - heavy plasma cannon and fist is 46 plus 65 or 85. Everything Is psychic do you don't have to worry about bringing support. If you could somehow fit in a couple tech priests it would be hard to deal with.
Well, you could, but you can only teleport 1/2 of your PL. So I chose to keep my dreadnoughts on the ground to contibute to on-the-ground PL, where I figured I could just deploy them out of LOS if I wanted to astral aim one. The other I figure I'd sanctuary one of the GMNDKs so I can make sure both dreadknights have GOI or Hammerhand depending on what they need to do. With my setup, you have to have the GMNDKs on the ground as well to teleport everything else, so they want to both be at a 3++ turn 1.
It would be Draigo plus 3 Vens and 1 Dread for 47, I think. The other 2 dreads are on table. Techmarines would hoof it or maybe grab a rhino with some Strikes.
It would be fun even if not bleeding edge competitive.
I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. T
Just remember that your casting baby smite, and you can't astral aim multiple dreads, but at the same time you can't take it just on one dread, because your opponent will just kill it first. How do you plan to get the charges off by the way? GK have no push mechanic, so you would be charging from 9"+ on 2d6.That is a lot above the averge, am not sure if even with the CP re-roll it comes down to 50%.
Bharring wrote: In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.
(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)
Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.
But there is a box of termintors with Thunder hammers and stormshields. I have seen it. Or did it come out only recantly?
Reemule wrote: I thought the game was amended that no more than 1/2 army points could be Ported in, and 1/2 needs to start on the table.
Easy enough to work with. Scotsman's list has 30 PL is just two GMDKs and 2 dreads. The loyal 32 is another 13. Then Draigo is 12 (technically shouldn't be any more), 3x10 strikes is 42, and the paladins are 10. So, one 10 man stays on for 59 and the rest is 50
I worked this out on Battlescribe so if there are any errors I apologize.
I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. T
Just remember that your casting baby smite, and you can't astral aim multiple dreads, but at the same time you can't take it just on one dread, because your opponent will just kill it first. How do you plan to get the charges off by the way? GK have no push mechanic, so you would be charging from 9"+ on 2d6.That is a lot above the averge, am not sure if even with the CP re-roll it comes down to 50%.
Bharring wrote: In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.
(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)
Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.
But there is a box of termintors with Thunder hammers and stormshields. I have seen it. Or did it come out only recantly?
My opponent is going to have a hard time killing the one dreadnought with astral aim comparatively, because he's going to be standing as out of LOS as I can possibly make him.
That being kind of the point of astral aim.
This list does present tank statline models to the enemy, which is a drawback in a knight-killing meta, but they are at least tanks with either invuln saves or fairly high defenses for the points (vendreads are actually pretty tough for the points given how easy it is for them to gain cover, small profile and long range meaning you can just start them behind a wall and you can usually fit them into buildings)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, GK do have a charge bonus in First to the Fray, which gives you a basic reroll for all units within 6" of the warlord. Since I played Orks pre-codex, I can tell you that's a 58% chance to get into melee combat - very much not bad, as I will ideally have 3 units of strikes, 1 unit of paladins, draigo, and two dreadknights trying to make that charge turn 2 after clearing 40 GEQ worth of chaff with their storm bolters.
The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on 2d6 is 27.78%. The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on your second roll is 27.78%. Granted that you get 2 rolls but it means that the odds of a successful charge at 9" is around 50/50. If the warlord trait allowed you to roll 1 or both dice then your chance of success would be much better than what is offered now.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on 2d6 is 27.78%. The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on your second roll is 27.78%. Granted that you get 2 rolls but it means that the odds of a successful charge at 9" is around 50/50. If the warlord trait allowed you to roll 1 or both dice then your chance of success would be much better than what is offered now.
That isn't exactly how it works - compound probability isn't additive, so the odds of getting in with just a straight 2-dice reroll are about 45%. However, if you add in the possibility of rerolling 1 die with a CP instead, it does go up to around 58%. But, the basic fact of the matter is, if you can get a charge reroll, your charges from deep strike go from "eh, might as well try, it'll probably fail" to "more likely than not to succeed" and for me its pretty much a litmus test of whether I will ever take a melee deep striking unit at all.
And they're probably the best foil to analyze strikes.
A stern with SIB or SB is 16 points.
A strike with SB and Falchions is 21.
Both of these units shoot the same. Both die the same. Both have 2 attacks.
In this scenario (also disregarding cost) Sterngaurd have no benefits over Strikes. So, ultimately we've paid 5 points for a obsec, baby smite and a more effective melee. For some they wouldn't wish to pay that, because they don't intend to melee and they don't find smite useful and that's totally legitimate. I just can't say that it isn't a fair cost for those abilities or that they aren't useful.
The only way to view GK is to take those positives and find a way to utilize them, because this is what GK is designed to do.. And after all deny +1 from any model in your army is quite a damper on armies that rely on spells like Doom.
You can't disregard cost just because you want to, though. Points DO add up. The Strike Squad is, at minimum, 105 points. That's 5 models, and that's it. Sternguard will be able to get different upgrades at that point as the minimum cost for them is a mere 80 points. You can get two Plasma Guns or Combi-Plasmas, which goes a long way. You can pick up a couple of Heavy Bolters or just a Grav Cannon. The better melee is worth some points, but we can't pretend the Smite is good for anything, nor does Objective Secured actually matter. When it comes to troops for Marines, they use the Scout tax. The minimum Battalion for GK is far above the regular Marine one.
Don't forget how silly the GK bonus is for a pure detachment. Sternguard can be Raven Guard, making them more valuable alone. Ultramarines aren't terrible either for a shooting unit.
You can even look at Company Vets for a better comparison if you want. 3 attacks instead, which is nice. In fact, Sternguard are strictly worse than them and the only benefit to them is being able to take Heavy Weapons and being in a larger squad (sound like a familiar justification for Conscripts?)
You can't disregard cost just because you want to, though. Points DO add up. The Strike Squad is, at minimum, 105 points. That's 5 models, and that's it. Sternguard will be able to get different upgrades at that point as the minimum cost for them is a mere 80 points. You can get two Plasma Guns or Combi-Plasmas, which goes a long way. You can pick up a couple of Heavy Bolters or just a Grav Cannon. The better melee is worth some points, but we can't pretend the Smite is good for anything, nor does Objective Secured actually matter. When it comes to troops for Marines, they use the Scout tax. The minimum Battalion for GK is far above the regular Marine one.
Don't forget how silly the GK bonus is for a pure detachment. Sternguard can be Raven Guard, making them more valuable alone. Ultramarines aren't terrible either for a shooting unit.
You can even look at Company Vets for a better comparison if you want. 3 attacks instead, which is nice. In fact, Sternguard are strictly worse than them and the only benefit to them is being able to take Heavy Weapons and being in a larger squad (sound like a familiar justification for Conscripts?)
I'm not trying to ignore costs. I just wanted to isolate the pros and cons of such units in a way that lets us determine how we need to use them.
In terms of cost there are breakpoints where, as you demonstrate, people effectively say, "Why don't I just take X?".
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.
If 3 points is our magic anchor then that makes a squad of 5 Strikes 10 points more than we would otherwise pay. While we would always like things cheaper should 10 points really dissuade someone from using a unit in their chosen army?
Now this is all considering falchions, which means all the other stock force weapons must be separated from base and come down in cost.
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.
I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.
I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.
Yes, but you're switching armies again and oddly enough those DW vets gain no benefits vs GK.
Of course people would pay 3 extra point for that because they would have chapter tactics and strats that could actually leverage most of those. Also the Stern get a point of AP on their weapon.
A GK strike squad that was 19 points per model, with a point of AP native to their SB AND had two attacks base? WITH their choice of SM chapter tactics? That would be amazing.
Imagine being able to fallback with a squad of GKSS after a round of melee and then shoot 4 stormbolter shots per model into at BS4. WHILE being +1 ld for Purge Soul? Purgation Squads would be so much useful...
Imagine Black Templar charge rerolls...
Ravenguard -1 to hit. Even the Salamander artisan weapons for that hammer in a squad, or imagine even the Crimson Fist chapter tactic so that GK could actually be ANTI HORDE. 3 man Pally squads could actually clean up squads consistently.
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.
I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.
Yes, but you're switching armies again and oddly enough those DW vets gain no benefits vs GK.
I don't think the armies matter. Playstyles do. If there are two or three armies that can run SB units and dreads, then they each have to have something powerful in their favour to be a valid way to play. Those don't have to be the same things, in fact it is way better, if the things are different. Am just not sure that baby smite+melee weapons balance stuff like Sternguard+Gulliman, or SB+SS dudes. Maybe they do, I don't know. But what I feel isn't really that important. If those kind of builds were good people would be running them. And while the G-man and DW armies aren't really winning tournaments, they are at least run. GK are not run.
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