DO you think Grey Knights will be fixed?

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**Slayer-Fan123**

the_scotsman wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.

Somehow, despite being essentially that equivalent for Eldar, Harlequins manage just fine - probably because all their abilities aren't EXPRESSLY designed to only work on a particular enemy.

Also don't forget some of the Masque Forms are at least functional (Veiled Path is pretty frickin garbage though).

**Martel732**

I thought gk got two swings in cc.

**the_scotsman**

Martel732 wrote:
I thought gk got two swings in cc.

nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupe.

21 point MEQs.

One swing in melee combat.

**Martel732**

Isnt their falchion thing a super chainsword?

**the_scotsman**

Martel732 wrote:
Isnt their falchion thing a super chainsword?

It's something like S User AP-2 Dd3 user gets a bonus attack, yeah.

Their attack stat is still 1.

Because the Falchion just does more damage in melee combat against every target (including their gooftastic 15pt thunder hammer upgrade) it's pretty much seen as the default weapon, so many people think of them as having 2 attacks.

Which is why maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have 4 different 0 point melee weapon options with almost the same statline, because someone's gonna find which one is mathematically better than all the rest and just take that on everything.

**Martel732**

Okay. That explains it.

**Bosskelot**

Karol wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.

To be totally fair to GW, I doubt they lied deliberately or with any malice. I'd say it's more likely that they fundamentally misunderstand what the problem is, or maybe they DO understand but they can't use Chapter Approved to really address things.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bosskelot wrote:
Karol wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.

To be totally fair to GW, I doubt they lied deliberately or with any malice. I'd say it's more likely that they fundamentally misunderstand what the problem is, or maybe they DO understand but they can't use Chapter Approved to really address things.

Chapter Approved is THE place to do it...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Isnt their falchion thing a super chainsword?

It's something like S User AP-2 Dd3 user gets a bonus attack, yeah.

Their attack stat is still 1.

Because the Falchion just does more damage in melee combat against every target (including their gooftastic 15pt thunder hammer upgrade) it's pretty much seen as the default weapon, so many people think of them as having 2 attacks.

Which is why maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have 4 different 0 point melee weapon options with almost the same statline, because someone's gonna find which one is mathematically better than all the rest and just take that on everything.

To make the weapons slightly more even I'd probably make the Falcions AP-1. I can't think up anything else though.

**Daedalus81**

Breng77 wrote:

The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.

Yea, you have to find a way to make melee work otherwise it's points for nothing.

Take the Rusty 17

2xEnginseer - 60
3x5 Rangers, 2xArquebus each - 195

GMDK, 2x Fists, H Icinerator, H Psycannon, Nemesis Lord - 24
Tech Marine, Power Axe, Plasma Cutter, Flamer - 67
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315
2x9 Interceptors, SB, Falchions - 414
Brotherhood Ancient, SB, Banner of Refining Flame - 92

Draigo - 180
Brother Captain, Psilencer - 114
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315

15 CP and 87% GK.

The Inceptors can start anywhere in cover / out of sight. It doesn't matter. Turn 1 they can go to any location out of sight - especially in ITC they'll get LOS cover from being in a a building. Then the next turn they can move 12" through any terrain and charge. The Brother Captain, Ancient, and Draigo drop in. The banner changes the ancient's smite to a D6 on a roll of a 4 with 12" range (from the BC). The ancient gives +1A to all infantry. Falchions give +1A. That means 3 attacks each with full rerolls to hit from Draigo (shooting, too). The GMDK stomps in with 6 WS2 attacks that do D3+1 damage with an always on HPsycannon (lots of CP) that out performs a Catachan BC even when on the move.

There is very little that would survive that.

Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that GK have lots of fun little tricks. The have *some* viability. Are they going to take top tables? No, but you sure as hell could win some games.

**Breng77**

The inceptors can go to any location more than 8" away from a screen turn 1, so that can limit their options. Then if they end up charging said screen then die, it is not worth it. You need to make melee happen with something of value. You are also then paying like 800 points for all that to happen.

SO you can win games against people that are not very good, but you also lose every game where you lose those inceptors turn 1 to ignores LOS shooting, or mobile shooty units.

They aren't awful as maybe a single unit in another army, but as an army I think they die far to easy.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Karol wrote:
Stupid question, how does one trade in a GK army, is that like a GW store only thing ?

I'm luck enough to have an FLGS that will buy 40K for store credit. So I sell them my army and buy a new army. To me that's the same thing as a trade.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.

Yea, you have to find a way to make melee work otherwise it's points for nothing.

Take the Rusty 17

2xEnginseer - 60
3x5 Rangers, 2xArquebus each - 195

GMDK, 2x Fists, H Icinerator, H Psycannon, Nemesis Lord - 24
Tech Marine, Power Axe, Plasma Cutter, Flamer - 67
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315
2x9 Interceptors, SB, Falchions - 414
Brotherhood Ancient, SB, Banner of Refining Flame - 92

Draigo - 180
Brother Captain, Psilencer - 114
3x5 Strikes, SB, Falchions - 315

15 CP and 87% GK.

The Inceptors can start anywhere in cover / out of sight. It doesn't matter. Turn 1 they can go to any location out of sight - especially in ITC they'll get LOS cover from being in a a building. Then the next turn they can move 12" through any terrain and charge. The Brother Captain, Ancient, and Draigo drop in. The banner changes the ancient's smite to a D6 on a roll of a 4 with 12" range (from the BC). The ancient gives +1A to all infantry. Falchions give +1A. That means 3 attacks each with full rerolls to hit from Draigo (shooting, too). The GMDK stomps in with 6 WS2 attacks that do D3+1 damage with an always on HPsycannon (lots of CP) that out performs a Catachan BC even when on the move.

There is very little that would survive that.

Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that GK have lots of fun little tricks. The have *some* viability. Are they going to take top tables? No, but you sure as hell could win some games.

It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.

If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.

Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:

It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.

If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.

Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.

It was a quick fudgy list. No need for strikes to really be out of LOS - they're just bolter bros. Strikes can keep the Brother Captain and smite at 24" with a 92% success rate or basically 6.4 MW per turn from those 7 units.

I actually feel like picking up a cheap GK army on eBay. I've always enjoyed playing underdog armies. My wife is going to kill me...

**the_scotsman**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.

Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.

**Flamephoenix182**

Who knows if they will fix them and I agree they need a full codices rewrite, but I definitely think they could be moved into middle tier with some minor FAQ adjustments.

I'm going to assume statline changes are out since GW seems to not want to touch the base marine statline.

But with some combination of:
Reduced strategem cost,
Stronger smites on HQs
Maybe removing the 1 cast per power rule for GKs

They could be good enough for semi competitive play.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.

Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.

Oh now you have me thinking about 2 squads of Purgs with 4 flamers each...not really sure what I'd use them on, but it would be fun liquid hot death. They could open up a hole for other deepstrikers, I guess.

**Karol**

Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.

**Slayer-Fan123**

the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd probably go with Incinterators on the Interceptors and Psilencers on the Strikes. Interceptors have a unique ability to actually deliver a Flamer weapon.

Anything can deliver a flamer weapon if you cram it in a stormturkey.

That just ensures your 200+ model gets targeted to be killed. Stormravens are a better transport than a Razorback but I still don't trust them to actually deliver anything.

**Daedalus81**

Karol wrote:
Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.

Smites and maneuverability, I suppose.

A storm bolter is mathematically equivalent to a gun with half the shots, but with AP2. Bobby gets them an edge on wounding, but at a cost.

2 * .666 * .5 * .333 = .222
1 * .666 * .5 * .666 = .222

As for Smash Captains - depends on the list and how you want to tackle it. You can fling the ravens out to the side and drag the smash captain out far enough to get hit by a run and gun by the other raven.

**Mike712**

Breng77 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.

GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.

Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.

Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.

This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.

GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.

You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.

A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.

The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.

- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.

The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.

Don't bother with power armour grey knighs...

Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?

Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!

**grouchoben**

A few tweaks would do it...

+1 base attack for strikes and interceptors
A +1 to charge & advance rolls relic
Librarian discipline for Librarians and Voldus
Access to decent FW stuff: contemptors, leviathans, deredeos.
Characters get full fat smite
______
Done!

**Mike712**

grouchoben wrote:
A few tweaks would do it...

+1 base attack
A +1 to charge & advance rolls relic
Librarian discipline for Librarians and Voldus
Access to decent FW stuff: contemptors, leviathans, deredeos.
Characters get full fat smite
______
Done

Ive been throwing these Ideas around for a while and emailed GW too.

Make a new table with 3 powers exempt from psychic focus.

- psybolt ammo (instead of strat)
- sanctuary
- hammerhand

Put The Shrouding in the psychic table -1 to hit 6" bubble for infantry only

Give Grey Knighs True Grit, in 4th it gave them +1 attack, in 8th it could let GK use their storm bolters within combat like pistols(pretty cool I think).

Give GK The Ageis a 6+++ to psychic mortal wounds

That's how you fix GK in my opinion and it gives them back some of their character and cool rules from old editions.

**Daedalus81**

Mike712 wrote:

Don't bother with power armour grey knighs...

Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?

Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!

I really like the thought of paladins, but such a huge investment scares me. Literally everything will shoot that unit and you have to clear chaff to get them somewhere useful.

I think units of 3 backed up by an apothecary or two could abuse their 3 wounds. You also get more smites and WS2 attacks from Paragons. Just keep them in cover when possible to fend off armigers and such.

**Karol**

Mike712 wrote:

Run paladins
Have 10 of them
With halberds
And +1 attack banner
With draigo re-rolls
Cast hammerhand
And sanctuary
Re-roll charge
Fight twice
80 attacks with rerolling to hit, at st5 with +1 to wound at ap -2 D3 damage.
Use guard or scions for CP farm and holding objectives
Apothecary to heal wounds/revive
Use psybolt strat every time you shoot
Las/Missile venerable dreads give fire support
Profit?

Paladins are good, and I'm fine with this, GK should be in TDA always as far as I'm concerned!

As someone who plays with paladins armed with halabards, I can say this. If there was a way to get them in to melee range without opponents shoting them dead it would be awesome. Right now one big squad just gets targeted by the whole opposing army and dies. MSU squads are a bit better, but they still die very fast, even with 3w and +2sv. Am not saying that normal termintors are better, because they are not. But 10 paladins are less resilient then a castellan and people build their armies to take out those.

I wish that dreadsnoughts could use astral aim as a unit or something like that. Right now one is too easily destroyed, and taking two aside for points invested in to them, means that one is going to be a lot less efficient then the one that does cast AA.

**Quickjager**

Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

It seems like you're paying 630 points for basically nothing, though. There's no way those footslogging MSU strikes are able to accomplish anything, really, and you're not finding a way to fit 40+ meqs completely out of LOS turn 1.

If you told me I had to make the best list possible out of GK with minimal allies, I'd definitely agree with you on the Interceptors and GMDK with the banner ancient, but I'd probably be taking my strikes with incinerators and stuffing them in two Stormravens. Then slap on the loyal 32 and be done.

Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

I guess the alternative setup would be possibly swapping the ravens for 2 rhinos and lascannon/ML vendreads to make up the antitank fire you get from the two planes. Works out to a similar cost, I just have found in my area the planes do quite well.

It was a quick fudgy list. No need for strikes to really be out of LOS - they're just bolter bros. Strikes can keep the Brother Captain and smite at 24" with a 92% success rate or basically 6.4 MW per turn from those 7 units.

I actually feel like picking up a cheap GK army on eBay. I've always enjoyed playing underdog armies. My wife is going to kill me...

...6 MW for that price point is straight trash dude.

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.

I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.

Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.

What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.

Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.

**Daedalus81**

Quickjager wrote:

...6 MW for that price point is straight trash dude.

Is not just 6MW and you know it.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Quickjager wrote:

...6 MW for that price point is straight trash dude.

Is not just 6MW and you know it.

With the GK psychic power list being what it is, their basic troop psykers really are just mortal wounds.

Like, I play Tsons as well, and I definitely don't htink of the aspiring sorcs as mortal wound generators, but therin lies the problem of GK: Your three decent powers really need to be used by your important characters.

Remember, the GK power list is:

-Purge Soul. Worse than Smite, given that (IIRC) imperium does not offer any kind of way to stack negative LD modifiers like Eldar Soup can.

-Gate of Infinity. Your first couple turns, you really must use this on your critical characters. This is Proooobably what I'd stick on the strikes, just to give them the option for added flexibility if I wasn't doing anything else with this critical power in a turn.

-Hammerhand. A walking 5-man strike squad is never going to use this, because they're never going to get near melee and even if they did...it'd be more useful to throw it on at least a unit of interceptors.

-Sanctuary. Maybe on one squad? Feels like I'm 100% always using this with my GMNDK though.

-Astral Aim. I still don't really get the point of this unless I'm a Dreadnought with las and missile.Maybe a contemptor. Do GK get psychic contemptors?

-Vortex. Yeah, I'd probably throw this on a strike squad, because you're gaining more vs a babysmite, but still i'd like it better on a model with some mobility so I could line up those big mortal wound kabooms.

And that is it. There's no Discipline of Change to give your mini-squads bonus powers, and no Hereticus Discipline to ensure that your characters and your squads aren't casting dupes. The second you cast one of these on any unit in your army, no other unit is using it that turn, and something like 1/2 of them I would classify as "critical to be using on your hard-hitting characters." A turn where I don't use Sanctuary, Hammerhand and Gate on one of my dreadknight masters, draigo, or interceptor squads is basically a turn I didn't use those squads efficiently. That leaves astral aim (veeeery weird to be using that on some storm bolter shmoes, most likely something you'd use on a dreadnought or dreadknight) and the quasi-smite powers...which is still reducing your strikes to just a couple mortal wounds.

**Loafing**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Want 4 WS2 thunderhammer attacks on a native 1+/3++/5+++ (+1 to saves) with death throes? Grab a champion and an extra relic for 103 points.

How is it a Thunderhammer?
The champion has a nemesis force sword and cannot swap for a hammer.

4 S4 AP-3 Dd3 attacks @ WS2+ (even with +1 to wound) is no where the same as 4 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks @ WS3+

Not saying the Champion isn't good. I find him hilarious with Hammerhands + Sword Stance for +2 to wound and using GK's 1CP "Even in Death" to get 8 attacks when killed.