How the hell do we fix orkz to make them more competitive and to make more units worth taking?
I mean the obvious answer is a massive price reduction on a number of units, the BoneCrusha is really good, it just needs a bit of a discount, same thing with most of the new Ork Buggies, they are good but too expensive to even think about taking. The Megatrakk scrapjet as an example is about 15-20pts over priced and is wicked nice to play/field.
Burna's are the exact opposite.....I can't think of a single way to make them worth taking beyond a massive change to their stats. A D3 flamer is crap, especially with an 8' range. Add in the price of the model and the fact that its literally just a boy model with a flamer and there is simply no way. Burna boyz are 12pts right now, that means that they are 7pt boyz with a 5pt flamer upgrade, a SM Flamer is 6pts and does D6 shots and is considered to be crap and not worth taking. now of course the Burna has -2 AP in CC as well but that isn't that big of a buff on a model that again is just a boy that is drastically over priced. Another Big issue that is probably the reason Orkz can't take Burna's is that they are 12pts but only have a 6+ save, so they can't deepstrike because they will be out of range of their flamers, they can't walk up the field because they cost almost twice as much as a boy and are just as fragile so they are over priced AND they require a transport to do anything which further ups their cost. I think maybe giving Burna Boyz a price INCREASE to 13 or even 14ppm and than giving them a 3+ save might make them usable, or conversely giving them a 1-2pt price drop AND giving them a 4+ save might help.
If anyone else has any solutions for other ork units or think another unit should be discussed in depth let me know.
Burna boyz are described as dual purpose. Infantry incinerators and can openers in melee. Currently the rules design let them do none of this. (for the points they have less shooty damage than shoota boyz and less mellee than slugga boyz). What they should have is flamer d6 or just flamer 3. Then they should also have something like s7 - 2ap d2 in melee to be able to hurt tanks.
For the rest of the army we need more ROF on the at weapons. For example make rokkits assult 3 .this would make units like killa kans and dakka deff dredds more interesting. This would also coubter that everything and their mother has a 3+ inv. Also big shootas should be like assult 6.
Burna boys have weaker flamers due to their ability to field more models. They are overpriced, though, and as their flamer is as big as a guardsman, it's a bit pathetic that they are only D3 shots!
It's worth remembering that units pay for their potential combos - if marines could have 12 flamer models in a fast, open-topped transport (advance + shoot, as they are assault and auto hit anyway) then people would be making a lot more marines with flamers.
the ability of a unit of burna boys to hurt a unit of generic elite infantry (EG marines) in CC is quite good too. just don't go for anything with an invuln or high toughness.
I do agree that the buggies are overpriced, and I hate their lack of options (should be one profile which can build all the buggies and any combination thereof, IMHO) but that's a different discussion.
rokkits being D3 shots? bit much, especially as they are quite a long weapon to reload, they shouldn't have a higher ROF than a bolter! what they should have is access to more of them - maybe even swap out rokkits on walkers for one shot weapons, as they lack the dexterity to reload a rokkit (gently grab another explosive and push it onto the end of a stick, with giant shears of death. not happening.), then they can fire them all at once or pace then throughout the game. perhaps have a "on a roll of a 1 for each additional rokkit fired, this model takes a mortal wound and the rokkit doesn't fire", to discourage people a bit (and for gaks sake, make orks more random!).
This would increase a one-turn damage potential but not make rokkits the most powerful gun in the ork codex!
My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
I will say that I agree with most of these. Giving Killa Kanz access to kulturs and giving them the "Psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the Stompa datasheet would make them viable (and really orky)
I really want them to make all the planes keyword Speed Freeks, it's not a big deal rules-wise but I hate the fact that they're not.
Make spanners cheaper by not having them pay for a rokkit launcha/deff gun they're not using. Just have a separate point cost for them at like 10ppm.
Change the "Billowing smoke cloud" strat to work in any movement phase.
Make burna boyz either 8 points or give them full wound rerolls at 10ppm.
Do you mean that the deffkoptas would cost 30ppm including the rack of rokkits? I personally don't think the deffkilla wartrike needs both the point reduction and the stat buff you've given him, either is fine. I actually like that tankbustas/ lootas are only a 6+ save, just make them cheaper. They're a super glass cannon which is fine as long as they're not overcosted (which they are ATM)
A lot of things in the codex need big point drops, especially seeing how most armies got their points slashed in CA 2018 (my admech force dropped like 325 points IIRC). There are so many things I want to change the datasheets for but I realise that's pretty unlikely. I personally made a list of point changes I wanted to see implemented for Orkz about a month after CA (with a long text explaining my reasoning) that I sent in to GW. I'm not sure how much that will end up doing but I suggest everyone sends in something to highlight the concerns we're having.
My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
I will say that I agree with most of these. Giving Killa Kanz access to kulturs and giving them the "Psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the Stompa datasheet would make them viable (and really orky)
I really want them to make all the planes keyword Speed Freeks, it's not a big deal rules-wise but I hate the fact that they're not.
Make spanners cheaper by not having them pay for a rokkit launcha/deff gun they're not using. Just have a separate point cost for them at like 10ppm.
Change the "Billowing smoke cloud" strat to work in any movement phase.
Make burna boyz either 8 points or give them full wound rerolls at 10ppm.
Do you mean that the deffkoptas would cost 30ppm including the rack of rokkits? I personally don't think the deffkilla wartrike needs both the point reduction and the stat buff you've given him, either is fine. I actually like that tankbustas/ lootas are only a 6+ save, just make them cheaper. They're a super glass cannon which is fine as long as they're not overcosted (which they are ATM)
A lot of things in the codex need big point drops, especially seeing how most armies got their points slashed in CA 2018 (my admech force dropped like 325 points IIRC). There are so many things I want to change the datasheets for but I realise that's pretty unlikely. I personally made a list of point changes I wanted to see implemented for Orkz about a month after CA (with a long text explaining my reasoning) that I sent in to GW. I'm not sure how much that will end up doing but I suggest everyone sends in something to highlight the concerns we're having.
Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.
Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.
No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.
Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.
Sure, I could probably send that tonight after work. I can't really access my personal mail from here, but I'll try and remember to fix it later.
I really hate that planes aren't speed freeks, it'd almost be a bad thing if they were for ES players like you and I since their minimum move would be 22" then I guess. But using the drive-by krumpin' strat on a plane (maybe even allowing them to drop both bombs in T1?) would be hilarious.
Billowing smoke cloud only costs 1CP where most reactive stratagems costs 2Cp, so just having it in any movement phase for 1CP seems fair.
Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.
Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!
Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.
Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.
No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.
Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.
Okay, so I've attached my reasoning for the points adjustments in the spoiler below. Some of it might be a bit dated, don't remember exactly what I wrote. I also had a bit about IK and possible solutions for them in there but I snipped that out since it wasn't relevant. I also cut out the point suggestions I've already put into the thread (although they have been slightly adjusted) and the pleasantries in the end, but this is the reasoning I included behind some of the bigger changes. It's sort of difficult choosing what to write as this could easily have been three time the amount of text but that might just look daunting.
Spoiler:
Hello,
I purchased Chapter approved (and vigilus defiant) when they were released just a couple of weeks ago and overall I’m really happy with the content in them. One of my main armies, Admech, were improved enough that I really believe they might become tournament viable now. So I’m certainly happy with those changes. I have two other armies that went untouched though, Imperial Knights & Orks. From what I understand then there wasn’t enough time to adjust IK and there obviously wasn’t in the case of Orks.
Orks in my opinion have quite a few changes that should be made now that Chapter approved has adjusted points in general. Overall as an army Orks are certainly fairly viable and most of the adjustments I suggest below are not meant to change up the way the army is played, rather these are just just the minor tweaks I believe should be implemented after playing with the codex and also to some degree after playing armies buffed by CA 2018. I waited until I had managed to play a few games against those armies buffed by CA 2018 as I didn’t want to rush into assumptions. I feel like the changes I suggest below are fair, grounded in reality & match what other armies got. I realise that actual datasheet tweaks are far less likely to happen rather than point changes so most of the things I suggest are related to point values instead. I’ll try to argue why I think some of these changes should be made in a couple of paragraphs followed by a list of point changes and a summary of datasheet changes.
As someone who plays speed freeks I’m extremely happy with the new buggy models but I do think that all of them are overcosted by somewhere between 20 all the way up to 50 points. The Kustom boosta-blasta and the Megatrakk scrapjet are both essentially fine when it comes to points since they’re dual purpose (with both anti-chaff & anti-tank weapons), although I still think a 20 point or so decrease is warranted considering they still fold like paper to actual anti-tank weaponry. The Boomdakka snazzwagon is pretty much the same as a Kustom boosta-blasta although significantly less effective against any sort of target, the durability buff from being -1 to hit is nice but it being the least threatening buggy means it’s unlikely to be targeted anyways. So in my opinion it should cost roughly 5-10 points less than the KBB, another solution might be raising the Mek Speshul to S6 which would help against chaff quite a bit, it’s also a shame that the grot tied to the front isn’t represented by the rules at all. Having him count as a one-time use “Ramshackle” save would be quite fun. The Shokkjump dragsta is an amazing model but it’s still not all that effective against T8 models such as IK or leman russes, considering how hyper specialised it is with just 3 shots I firmly believe that the kustom shokk rifles should be raised to S9, however if we assume it gets no datasheet changes a point drop of roughly 30 points is probably warranted considering how easily it fluffs all it's shots against high toughness targets and how exposed it then has become due to its short ranged guns. The Rukkatrukk squigbuggy is just nowhere near effective enough to be worth 140 points. Placing down the mine, basically a smite, is quite useful but the rest of the weaponry fails to impress. I’d slash its price down to 90-100 points. It's fun, but right now its relegated to that role just because of how ineffective those guns are at their price point.
The warbikes should drop down to 19 points for parity with other codices and how much their bikes dropped, and the Nobz on warbikes just don’t feel worth 38 points per model in my opinion considering you’ll want to equip them with weaponry easily pushing them to 50 points per model. They'd be an option worth considering at a 10 point cut per model. Burna boyz are in a strange spot since they’re worse off at killing infantry than normal boyz because of dakkadakkadakka which means shoota boyz will always get some hits in. I realise that d6 flamer shots per model might get crazy considering open-topped vehicles so I’m suggesting a 2 point drop per model and that they get to reroll wounds natively.
Considering the Heavy stubber dropped to 2 points for BS3+ armies I think the big shoota, a slightly better weapon fired by far worse shots, should follow suit. The Power Klaw, a weapon identical to the power fist, should drop to 10 points in my opinion. Astra militarum get it for 8 being weaker than space marines, who pay 9 for it now. A nob is stronger than them and as such pay 1 additional point. The same goes with Killsaws, since the chainfist dropped to 11 a killsaw should be 12 I think (18 for the pair)
To sort of summarize what I feel like the problems Orks have currently are in a lot of ways tied to durability. The durability of the army is alright assuming you only bring one type of thing. Meaning either a swarm of boyz and other footsloggers or basically only vehicles. Any attempt to strray from those builds means that your opponent will always have viable targets for their specialised weaponry and the durability of Orks becomes terrible. This is a very fixable problem I think and mostly just reflects how overcosted a lot of the options the army currently have are. In your attempt of balance I believe you might have reigned in the capabilities of Orks just a little bit too much because right now the army doesn't feel like it has the offensive output to cover the problems it has with defence.
Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.
Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!
I'm super down with the 1/2 slot grots! I have suggested that in the past, it's insane they take up the same space as a Nob.
I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(
Waaaghbert wrote: I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(
Yea I'm with you there buddy. A simple disembark after moving stray would've helped. But it doesn't get round the fact that you always want more boyz in a squad.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Nice commentary Pina. Well reasoned and written thoughts there.
How could anyone at GWHQ not think those changes are a good idea, when you have presented them so well?!
Thanks buddy, I really hope we get enough people writing to GW so they understand that we do need point adjustments, hopefully in the march FAQ and not CA 2019.
Waaaghbert wrote:I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(
Boyz in trukks should get the ability to disembark after moving the trukk but risk taking casualties on the roll of a 1 (same as if the transport blew up) IMO. Probably just restrict it to boyz and not Nobz/MANZ, but if they get that then the T1 charging capabilities would offset the downside of not being 20+ boyz. It'd make them pretty interesting.
Or at the very least make the assault ramps give the trukk a 6" disembark move instead of 3"
Waaaghbert wrote: I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(
For trukboyz to become viable this edition we need a lone PK to become viable. I'd say that PK needs to go up in price, but become a lot more krumpy, like dropping a -1 to hit or getting a d6 damage, or zog it, both.
Kanz need a lot of love. Morale mitigation is a must, as not only the unit is not-so-much-worth it because of lackluster shooting, but also because it suffers way too much in terms of morale. Allow them benefit from stratagems, kultures, some way to shoot twice, maybe get some sort of a melee buff when near a deffdread or *naught.
I would love to see some spice for burnas. D6 damage is a must. +1 to wound vs vehicles/monsters would be spicy and fluffy. Armor save of 4+ or 5+. Lorewise burnaboys cut tanks apart for meks, wouldn't they snag some plates for themselves? Besides they do look tougher compared to normal boys. Pyromaniacs is just meh.
Careful with slapping 3+ on all the units, as we have a stratagem of improving an army save by +1. Nobs in a truk could easily turn into terminators then.
Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.
Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.
No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.
Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.
Okay, so I've attached my reasoning for the points adjustments in the spoiler below. Some of it might be a bit dated, don't remember exactly what I wrote. I also had a bit about IK and possible solutions for them in there but I snipped that out since it wasn't relevant. I also cut out the point suggestions I've already put into the thread (although they have been slightly adjusted) and the pleasantries in the end, but this is the reasoning I included behind some of the bigger changes. It's sort of difficult choosing what to write as this could easily have been three time the amount of text but that might just look daunting.
Spoiler:
Hello,
I purchased Chapter approved (and vigilus defiant) when they were released just a couple of weeks ago and overall I’m really happy with the content in them. One of my main armies, Admech, were improved enough that I really believe they might become tournament viable now. So I’m certainly happy with those changes. I have two other armies that went untouched though, Imperial Knights & Orks. From what I understand then there wasn’t enough time to adjust IK and there obviously wasn’t in the case of Orks.
Orks in my opinion have quite a few changes that should be made now that Chapter approved has adjusted points in general. Overall as an army Orks are certainly fairly viable and most of the adjustments I suggest below are not meant to change up the way the army is played, rather these are just just the minor tweaks I believe should be implemented after playing with the codex and also to some degree after playing armies buffed by CA 2018. I waited until I had managed to play a few games against those armies buffed by CA 2018 as I didn’t want to rush into assumptions. I feel like the changes I suggest below are fair, grounded in reality & match what other armies got. I realise that actual datasheet tweaks are far less likely to happen rather than point changes so most of the things I suggest are related to point values instead. I’ll try to argue why I think some of these changes should be made in a couple of paragraphs followed by a list of point changes and a summary of datasheet changes.
As someone who plays speed freeks I’m extremely happy with the new buggy models but I do think that all of them are overcosted by somewhere between 20 all the way up to 50 points. The Kustom boosta-blasta and the Megatrakk scrapjet are both essentially fine when it comes to points since they’re dual purpose (with both anti-chaff & anti-tank weapons), although I still think a 20 point or so decrease is warranted considering they still fold like paper to actual anti-tank weaponry. The Boomdakka snazzwagon is pretty much the same as a Kustom boosta-blasta although significantly less effective against any sort of target, the durability buff from being -1 to hit is nice but it being the least threatening buggy means it’s unlikely to be targeted anyways. So in my opinion it should cost roughly 5-10 points less than the KBB, another solution might be raising the Mek Speshul to S6 which would help against chaff quite a bit, it’s also a shame that the grot tied to the front isn’t represented by the rules at all. Having him count as a one-time use “Ramshackle” save would be quite fun. The Shokkjump dragsta is an amazing model but it’s still not all that effective against T8 models such as IK or leman russes, considering how hyper specialised it is with just 3 shots I firmly believe that the kustom shokk rifles should be raised to S9, however if we assume it gets no datasheet changes a point drop of roughly 30 points is probably warranted considering how easily it fluffs all it's shots against high toughness targets and how exposed it then has become due to its short ranged guns. The Rukkatrukk squigbuggy is just nowhere near effective enough to be worth 140 points. Placing down the mine, basically a smite, is quite useful but the rest of the weaponry fails to impress. I’d slash its price down to 90-100 points. It's fun, but right now its relegated to that role just because of how ineffective those guns are at their price point.
The warbikes should drop down to 19 points for parity with other codices and how much their bikes dropped, and the Nobz on warbikes just don’t feel worth 38 points per model in my opinion considering you’ll want to equip them with weaponry easily pushing them to 50 points per model. They'd be an option worth considering at a 10 point cut per model. Burna boyz are in a strange spot since they’re worse off at killing infantry than normal boyz because of dakkadakkadakka which means shoota boyz will always get some hits in. I realise that d6 flamer shots per model might get crazy considering open-topped vehicles so I’m suggesting a 2 point drop per model and that they get to reroll wounds natively.
Considering the Heavy stubber dropped to 2 points for BS3+ armies I think the big shoota, a slightly better weapon fired by far worse shots, should follow suit. The Power Klaw, a weapon identical to the power fist, should drop to 10 points in my opinion. Astra militarum get it for 8 being weaker than space marines, who pay 9 for it now. A nob is stronger than them and as such pay 1 additional point. The same goes with Killsaws, since the chainfist dropped to 11 a killsaw should be 12 I think (18 for the pair)
To sort of summarize what I feel like the problems Orks have currently are in a lot of ways tied to durability. The durability of the army is alright assuming you only bring one type of thing. Meaning either a swarm of boyz and other footsloggers or basically only vehicles. Any attempt to strray from those builds means that your opponent will always have viable targets for their specialised weaponry and the durability of Orks becomes terrible. This is a very fixable problem I think and mostly just reflects how overcosted a lot of the options the army currently have are. In your attempt of balance I believe you might have reigned in the capabilities of Orks just a little bit too much because right now the army doesn't feel like it has the offensive output to cover the problems it has with defence.
Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.
Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!
I'm super down with the 1/2 slot grots! I have suggested that in the past, it's insane they take up the same space as a Nob.
I no longer play orks (sold them in 6th) but still like to follow information and threads on them.
Just like to say what a well reasoned and written piece of constructive feedback that is. I feel things like that are much more likely to get the attention of GW than the usual wish lists. Things like giving a load of ork units a 3+ save or invulnerables are just not going to happen where as a few well reasoned price drops are far more likely.
Speaking as someone who plays against orks alot (I sold my old force to a friend) I think the new codex seems pretty powerful, loads of useful stratagems and some excellent units. Very hard to play the mission against due to the amount of bodies they can field. As with all armies there are units that just don't perform at their points value so asking for some minor adjustments seems a good way to go.
Not Online!!! wrote: Isn't one of the main problems with pricing for orks the Tellyporta stratagem?
Edit: what i want to say is, that it is that powerfull that a lot of necessary pricedrops /rule adaptions don't happen.
In essence you can compare it with how Abbadon singlehandedly keeps the price for CSM equipment up and bobby g doing the same.
Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport?
It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.
So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?
Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport? It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.
So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?
Yes and no, most are factions specific, as in subfaction specific. CSM and SM lost their Infiltration abilitiy. SW,DA, i belive don't have one. GK has it priced into their troops, which suck soooooo.
CSM for exemple only got Tide of traitors now, after the nerf for the AL stratagem.Tide got nerfed as well as have Cultists themselves.
AM also only has it on a subfaction, with a bad trait and it beeing 3 CP.And only once up to 3 units.
That's not to say it isn't common, i feel like half the armies have something comparable as a stratagem, but most of these have it bound by subfactions/ specific units types and or restricted to one use, which generally aren't good, or less "problematic" in GW's eyes. (Aren't good anymore cough SM/CSM)
It generally also is deemed for GW anyways an unfun way to play because it leads to turn 1 melee supposedly, one of the issues they took with said stratagems before they got nerfed into oblivion.
I think in their minds that justifies alot of the higher prices on units like Boyz /Boyzlike units like lootas, burnaboyz especially i feel are a victim of this.
I don't say i find this approach good, but in a melee faction and with the Statement of GW that they didn't like T1 melee because it is "uninteractive" it would make sense to severly limit it out of their view.
Then again GW has a history of overvaluing Melee prowess and SV.
My opinion would've been, if these stratagems are such problem childs, why even implement them and not replace them to something closer to what they deem balanced.
I would've cut it and personally made Trukkz and contents of it cheap enough that it would've been playable.
Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport?
It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.
So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?
Yes and no, most are factions specific, as in subfaction specific.
CSM and SM lost their Infiltration abilitiy.
SW,DA, i belive don't have one.
GK has it priced into their troops, which suck soooooo.
CSM for exemple only got Tide of traitors now, after the nerf for the AL stratagem.Tide got nerfed as well as have Cultists themselves.
AM also only has it on a subfaction, with a bad trait and it beeing 3 CP.And only once up to 3 units.
That's not to say it isn't common, i feel like half the armies have something comparable as a stratagem, but most of these have it bound by subfactions/ specific units types and or restricted to one use, which generally aren't good, or less "problematic" in GW's eyes. (Aren't good anymore cough SM/CSM)
It generally also is deemed for GW anyways an unfun way to play because it leads to turn 1 melee supposedly, one of the issues they took with said stratagems before they got nerfed into oblivion.
I think in their minds that justifies alot of the higher prices on units like Boyz /Boyzlike units like lootas, burnaboyz especially i feel are a victim of this.
I don't say i find this approach good, but in a melee faction and with the Statement of GW that they didn't like T1 melee because it is "uninteractive" it would make sense to severly limit it out of their view.
Then again GW has a history of overvaluing Melee prowess and SV.
My opinion would've been, if these stratagems are such problem childs, why even implement them and not replace them to something closer to what they deem balanced.
I would've cut it and personally made Trukkz and contents of it cheap enough that it would've been playable.
I follow this line of reasoning until you mention Lootas and the like. No Ork player has ever teleported Lootas in. They are not a unit you ever want to teleport in. Burna boys are pointed so badly that shoota boys outperform them at greater range and they themselves are hardly the pinnacle of a shooting unit. If Burna boyz could natively deep strike people still wouldn't take them, they are that bad.
To be clear, the Tellyporta Stratagem does not allow turn 1 deepstrike. The only way Orks can get a unit up field on turn 1 is using Da Jump. That power can only be cast on one unit so it's limited by the casting limitations. There's nothing wrong with either of these abilities, other factions have identical powers and most have a Deep Strike equivalent, the only difference is that ours is more flexible (which is no bad thing).
Most of the Ork units that are poor are so because they are wildly overcosted. You only have to look at the new buggies, Burna Boyz compared to Hand Flamer Acolytes, Lootas, even Tankbustas are too expensive and let's not forget the joke that is the Stompa. In addition, our weapons are now too expensive compared to other equivalents, it's like GW forget that we have BS5+ on the vast majority of them. Or the people who wrote the changes introduced in CA had absolutely no communication with those who wrote the Ork codex because our codex "buff" lasted all of a month. CA18 invalidated it almost immediately.
Lootas are far too expensive for their current cost. It doesn't matter how good your gun is, when you have T4 and a 6+ save at 17 pts is a joke. GW either make the save better (so they become less reliant on Grot shields, which is their current crutch) or they drastically cut their cost. I dare say a 3+ save is not going to happen, but to make Nobs should not have the same save as Lootas and Lootas cannot exist with a 6+ save at 17ppm. And the issue becomes more complex, because if GW drop their cost significantly they simply become spammed.
Burna boyz need a D6 flamer. Possibly a better than 6+ save but that's more of a fluff thing. The fact that they're D3 and only 8" is ridiculous. It just doesn't work and I find it amazing that this got through testing. Like what is their purpose? They're worse than our standard troops.
Tank Bustas are similar to Lootas in that they have decent offense but absolutely no defence. Luckily their weapons are Assault so they can do something even if they're in a transport, which is nice because a transport is absolutely necessary for them to function. But it aint hard to kill a Trukk and 17 ppm + 64 pt for Trukk is not a cheap prospect for an Ork player. I guess they show how poorly priced the Rokkit Launchas are.
I can't be bothered to summarise all of the reasons the buggies are so bad right now, but I think it's pretty obvious when they're compared to other units of a similar ilk.
Warbikes aren't too far off, they just need a buff in line with every other bike.
For some reason our planes are the only ones in the game that I know of with a 4+ save instead of 3+, which is odd.
WisdomLS wrote: I no longer play orks (sold them in 6th) but still like to follow information and threads on them.
Just like to say what a well reasoned and written piece of constructive feedback that is. I feel things like that are much more likely to get the attention of GW than the usual wish lists. Things like giving a load of ork units a 3+ save or invulnerables are just not going to happen where as a few well reasoned price drops are far more likely.
Speaking as someone who plays against orks alot (I sold my old force to a friend) I think the new codex seems pretty powerful, loads of useful stratagems and some excellent units. Very hard to play the mission against due to the amount of bodies they can field. As with all armies there are units that just don't perform at their points value so asking for some minor adjustments seems a good way to go.
Nice bit of shade you throwing there. I hate to say it but if you no longer play Orks it's very unlikely you have any idea what's needed to balance the faction.
Those 3+ and invulnerable saves I suggested are for our characters. Y'know, the units in the army that are supposed to be good/fun to play? Our characters all die to a stiff breeze. The only invulnerable they have access to is through KFF (which doesn't work in melee combat, where they want to be) and through a subfaction/detachment specific relic. That's it. Wyches have a 4++ in melee and are able to lock down units in combat (something our faction absolutely should be able to do, but can't) and they aren't considered broken. So why shouldn't we get some good stuff? Why are people so scared of Orks being competitive? Not to mention the fact that Storm Shields might as well be free they are so cheap now.
I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.
Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.
It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.
Not Online!!! wrote: I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.
Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.
It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.
Sorry I guess I didn't understand the point of mentioning T1 melee since it's incredibly hard for Orks to do any effective T1 melee outside of Da Jump? I'm not sure what AL have to do with a discussion on Orks either?
I'm not sure what gun is worse than a burna but there can't be many.
It's a pretty big leap to state that T2 charge is uninteractive. Charging and combat is actually the most interactive part of the game. It's the only time your opponent gets to do something in your turn. Shooting me off the board is the definition of "uninteractive". It's not particularly fun to watch my army get point and clicked into oblivion without the opponent needing to move an inch. Charging successfully requires making it across the board somehow, getting through overwatch, hoping your opponent doesn't interrupt combat, then taking the return hits.
I can't imagine them costing all units like they are going to deep strike using Tellyporta. It's a stratagem suited to very few units and we can see how much they believe Deep Strike to be worth through the costing of Kommandos that are effectively Boyz + Deep Strike for 8 ppm. So they reckon it's worth a point on a Boy-like unit.
Not Online!!! wrote: I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.
Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.
It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.
Sorry I guess I didn't understand the point of mentioning T1 melee since it's incredibly hard for Orks to do any effective T1 melee outside of Da Jump? I'm not sure what AL have to do with a discussion on Orks either?
I'm not sure what gun is worse than a burna but there can't be many.
It's a pretty big leap to state that T2 charge is uninteractive. Charging and combat is actually the most interactive part of the game. It's the only time your opponent gets to do something in your turn. Shooting me off the board is the definition of "uninteractive". It's not particularly fun to watch my army get point and clicked into oblivion without the opponent needing to move an inch. Charging successfully requires making it across the board somehow, getting through overwatch, hoping your opponent doesn't interrupt combat, then taking the return hits.
I can't imagine them costing all units like they are going to deep strike using Tellyporta. It's a stratagem suited to very few units and we can see how much they believe Deep Strike to be worth through the costing of Kommandos that are effectively Boyz + Deep Strike for 8 ppm. So they reckon it's worth a point on a Boy-like unit.
Yeah however in their mind they recently buffed melee aggression via removal of Initiative value.
Also commados don't have burnas and I feel like gw is just overvaluing burnas with tellyporta.
And gw thought autohitting + melee ap value = broken with tellyporta.
I don't agree with their sentiment but i also rather would play against a fairly costed Ork army ( since mine is just sidelined atm) than one that relies in essence on a crutch.
Also with the removal of the Initiative value melee did become a lot less interactive.
Edit: i again reiterate the cultist exemple, they are costed with all the exemple boosts but many didn't field them that way.
IG squads have no such capability this is why i rekon they are let at 4 ppm, however questionable that is when cultists are now 5 but he at this point the south Park Bank / economical Scene applies, the one with the chicken.
Not Online!!! wrote: Yeah however in their mind they recently buffed melee aggression via removal of Initiative value.
Also commados don't have burnas and I feel like gw is just overvaluing burnas with tellyporta.
And gw thought autohitting + melee ap value = broken with tellyporta.
I don't agree with their sentiment but i also rather would play against a fairly costed Ork army ( since mine is just sidelined atm) than one that relies in essence on a crutch.
Burnas have an 8" range. Tellyporta'd burna boyz must be at least 9" away. This can't be the reason for the overcosted Burnas. Even GW know that the Burna won't be in range if the Burna boyz tellyport in.
Also with the removal of the Initiative value melee did become a lot less interactive.
Edit: i again reiterate the cultist exemple, they are costed with all the exemple boosts but many didn't field them that way.
IG squads have no such capability this is why i rekon they are let at 4 ppm, however questionable that is when cultists are now 5 but he at this point the south Park Bank / economical Scene applies, the one with the chicken.
Melee is more interactive in my opinion. You can decide to interrupt which is something you had no choice in previously.
I don't know what you're talking about with Cultists and IG but this thread is for discussing Orks and their issues. Leave the other stuff for other threads.
Not Online!!! wrote: The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.
Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.
But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.
Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.
Not Online!!! wrote: The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.
Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.
But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.
Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.
So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.
Not Online!!! wrote: So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.
That can't really be the case seeing as how normal slugga boyz will deal more damage in CC against a lot of targets per model, not per point. Those boyz are also troops and bring a plethora of other buffs by being larger groups. 15 burna boyz deepstriking to get into melee is a waste of points. That's 180 points, you can get 25 boyz and change for that. There is absolutely no chance at all they looked at burna boyz as overperforming at any point during 8th.
No, while it wouldn't surprise me if GW implemented the Tellyporta strat as a balance tool, "a rising tide lifts all ships" and all that I really doubt that's the case with burna boyz. They were costed before handflamers went from d3 shots to d6, before the GSC codex dropped, before CA 2018. I'd wager a long time before CA 2018 seeing as how basically all named characters dropped massively in that book while Ghaz actually got more expensive in the Ork 'dex. I think they sat on a finished Ork codex for a while and it was almost fine when comparing it to other armies. Unfortunately CA came along and a lot of units have aged poorly since.
Even at 8 points per model I'm not sure they'd be better than normal slugga boyz in CC when factoring in the buffs those guys get. Seeing as it would probably be 4 attacks versus 2 attacks (with AP-2).Especially considering they don't get a boss nob. They'd be better at shooting than normal slugga boyz, but more expensive and not troops (or have free tankbusta bombs). I just think they should be 10ppm and get to reroll all wounds but honestly even that might not be enough, D3 flamers are just so underwhelming.
I feel like squad size Boni for a lot of the smaller squads like burnaboys would need to be implemented, that said make it d6 allready.
No, while it wouldn't surprise me if GW implemented the Tellyporta strat as a balance tool, "a rising tide lifts all ships" and all that I really doubt that's the case with burna boyz. They were costed before handflamers went from d3 shots to d6, before the GSC codex dropped, before CA 2018. I'd wager a long time before CA 2018 seeing as how basically all named characters dropped massively in that book while Ghaz actually got more expensive in the Ork 'dex. I think they sat on a finished Ork codex for a while and it was almost fine when comparing it to other armies. Unfortunately CA came along and a lot of units have aged poorly since.
Not Online!!! wrote: The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.
Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.
But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.
Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.
So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.
Burnaboyz suck, as mentioned already, for the cost of 15 burna's you can take 25+boyz, Those 25 boyz get 100 CC attacks, those 15 burnas get 30. So Boyz get 67 hits and 33ish wounds vs T4 and against a 2+ save that is 5.5 wounds Burnas get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and against a 2+ save they get 5 wounds. Against a 3+ save the boyz get 11 wounds where as the Burna's get 6-7, against a 4+ save the Boyz get 16 wounds the burnas get 9ish. In no way are burna's worth mentioning. and that isn't even taking into account that hte biggest weakness Burna's face compared to boyz is durability. 25 wounds with a 6+ save is a lot harder to remove then 15 wounds with a 6+ save. Not to even mention mob rule.
I'd like to see some more Ork weapons that autohit that aren't Burnas or the like, operating on the idea that there's just so much Dakka that you can't possibly miss. Like, some sort of anti-tank weapon that just fires a barrage of explosives in an area where most of them will always miss but you'll always get some hits could be a "Range 48", Heavy 2, always hits" weapon in game terms. The fetish of only representing Ork shooting as "Heavy 248, only hits on a 9+ every other Sunday if it's an even date" is hampering Ork design space, and creates the possibility for crazy performance spikes that just isn't fun for anyone involved.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd like to see some more Ork weapons that autohit that aren't Burnas or the like, operating on the idea that there's just so much Dakka that you can't possibly miss. Like, some sort of anti-tank weapon that just fires a barrage of explosives in an area where most of them will always miss but you'll always get some hits could be a "Range 48", Heavy 2, always hits" weapon in game terms. The fetish of only representing Ork shooting as "Heavy 248, only hits on a 9+ every other Sunday if it's an even date" is hampering Ork design space, and creates the possibility for crazy performance spikes that just isn't fun for anyone involved.
Not quite what I had in mind, I thought more like some sort of long-range shotgun or a shrapnel bomb thrower or something, but yeah, why not? Like, if you had a "Flakk Bommablasta" or something as an anti-air gun and it automatically hit fliers but rolled normally against other targets, for example, You could use this sort of weapon to give Orks specialized shooting units that are good at countering specific things that Orks struggle with without making these units completely mad against other types of targets due to the ridiculous rate of fire that would be required for them to be good if they only hit on 5+ with D^3.
I mean, as much as I'd like new weapons or units I think it'd be easier to fix what we currently have than invent new things.
We're not far off having all the tools we need, we have anti infantry in spades and some of it is half decent. Its our anti armour where we struggle and that's where we could do with improvements to existing units.
A unit can't be measured with the assumption that it has enumerable grot shields or is always shooting twice. That's where GW have fallen over, I think.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not quite what I had in mind, I thought more like some sort of long-range shotgun or a shrapnel bomb thrower or something, but yeah, why not? Like, if you had a "Flakk Bommablasta" or something as an anti-air gun and it automatically hit fliers but rolled normally against other targets, for example, You could use this sort of weapon to give Orks specialized shooting units that are good at countering specific things that Orks struggle with without making these units completely mad against other types of targets due to the ridiculous rate of fire that would be required for them to be good if they only hit on 5+ with D^3.
Yeah, that's something I could get behind. This could potentially make grotzookas worth taking since they have short range but with auto-hitting (assuming only against infantry) it basically makes it an upgunned flamer to help get rid of chaff. This idea also makes sense since you lose out on potential dakka dakka dakka procs since you don't roll to hit. The biggest issue with this approach is points cost since it's a fine line between cost-effective and garbage/broken with stuff like this, and we know GW almost always costs things assuming its on the higher end of the random spectrum.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I mean, as much as I'd like new weapons or units I think it'd be easier to fix what we currently have than invent new things.
We're not far off having all the tools we need, we have anti infantry in spades and some of it is half decent. Its our anti armour where we struggle and that's where we could do with improvements to existing units.
A unit can't be measured with the assumption that it has enumerable grot shields or is always shooting twice. That's where GW have fallen over, I think.
True. I think the biggest issue for us anti-tank wise is that we don't have anything reliable besides smasha gunz (due to cost efficiency) or easily accessible. Besides making rokkit launchas cheaper, would it be worth considering if they had D3 shots instead of just 1? I would actually consider taking it on boyz squads then and it makes it less of a tax on vehicles that have it tacked on. The only caveat would be making tankbustas bonkers strong compared to lootas (which also, frankly, needs a revision). Maybe make it so you only get D3 shots for a rokkit launcha if its mounted on a vehicle (kind of like how the Dark Lance becomes an assault weapon on a vehicle versus being heavy if carried by infantry)?
Our CC is also an area where we struggle with anti-tank, due to our lack of high damage options. Besides the Killa Klaw boss and bonebreaka battlewagons, I can't really remember killing many tanks in CC. I still think making the PK do D6 damage is the best way to rectify this, since it makes meganobz actually scary against big targets and makes taking a Klaw viable versus a Big Choppa in Boyz units. Make Killsaws Damage 3 to compensate.
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
The only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A ton of marine players with 3+ armour save models keep telling me it doesn't help them any though....
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
You'll notice in my post that you quoted I answered this question for you. They have worse saves than Nobs, which makes no sense. The same for Deffkilla Wartrikes. That are the character equivalent of buggies. Oh and of course most of all it would help make the vast amount of units in our codex that are garbage actually semi-viable. Your claim these changes make the book broken are laughable.
only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
I don't really care what you think. Please enlighten me as to what price you think a Stomps needs to be to see competitive play though, I could do with a laugh.
It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A ton of marine players with 3+ armour save models keep telling me it doesn't help them any though....
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
You'll notice in my post that you quoted I answered this question for you. They have worse saves than Nobs, which makes no sense. The same for Deffkilla Wartrikes. That are the character equivalent of buggies. Oh and of course most of all it would help make the vast amount of units in our codex that are garbage actually semi-viable. Your claim these changes make the book broken are laughable.
only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
I don't really care what you think. Please enlighten me as to what price you think a Stomps needs to be to see competitive play though, I could do with a laugh.
I guess the fact you don't care what other people think is part of your problem here, but I digress....
Let me again refer to Crypteks (although there are many examples in the game) as they are no smaller than a Necron Immortal, so by your logic it makes no sense that they have worse saves. Maybe that's actually true by the way - but your logic is flawed. A Weirdboy is not a Nob, that's why it doesn't have the same stats as one.
JNAProductions wrote: So, how would you change the Weirdboy and Painboy models? Because they ain't 3+ models.
What does this even mean? Is this something to do with you reading fluff where a single spacemarine kills an entire waaaagh? They absolutely should have and need (for the health of the faction in a competitive sense) better saves.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
The last thing we need is more randomness. It doesn't help when you're trying to balance an army for competitive play. Despite their lack of armour they are also portrayed as one of if not the hardiest species in existence. You know, they fight even when beheaded, they laugh at lasgun shots and (this is the important bit) they are lethal even when considered 'dead' by human standards. That isn't represented anywhere. An armour save is not just representative of how much literal armour they have, it represents their durability. You'll notice I've suggested better saves on characters (that should be tougher according to fluff anyways, the longer an Ork lives, the hardier he becomes) and a very few units because they are currently underperforming without them.
I can't see a possible reason why a drugged up elf fighter, or a Geiger rip off alien that lives all of one invasion has an invulnerable save in melee but a warboss, the toughest of a tough race who has been through countless cqc engagements does not. It makes no sense and it makes them a problem because anything you want them to hit they have to hit first or die. But you guys aren't interested in balance. You want Orks to remain an NPC faction.
I guess the fact you don't care what other people think is part of your problem here, but I digress....
Let me again refer to Crypteks (although there are many examples in the game) as they are no smaller than a Necron Immortal, so by your logic it makes no sense that they have worse saves. Maybe that's actually true by the way - but your logic is flawed. A Weirdboy is not a Nob, that's why it doesn't have the same stats as one.
Have you seen the stats of a weirdboy compared to a Nob? They are very similar. Forgetting your ramblings about Immortals for a second can you explain two things; one - why you think our codex is powerful when it is evidently weak (about as weak as Necrons as it happens) and two why you think my suggestions would 'break the meta'.
Perhaps if you explained your position rather than just stating it, with no explanation as to why you have it we could have a discussion but unfortunately it seems obvious to me you aren't actually interested in the topic or a discussion around it.
Giving all Ork Characters a 4+ save (unless already better) seems fair to me. Maybe the mini-mek should just be a 5+, I'd be okay with that. I don't think it's crazy wanting a 3+ warboss though, especially considering the MA Warboss is index only now. Give a updated datasheet for that guy and a 4+ warboss is fine IMO.
The weirdboy I'm totally okay with having just a 6+ normal save but his waaagh energy should give him a 5+ invulnerable save IMO. That's just a basic daemonic save and hardly considered game-changing.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
The last thing we need is more randomness. It doesn't help when you're trying to balance an army for competitive play. Despite their lack of armour they are also portrayed as one of if not the hardiest species in existence. You know, they fight even when beheaded, they laugh at lasgun shots and (this is the important bit) they are lethal even when considered 'dead' by human standards. That isn't represented anywhere. An armour save is not just representative of how much literal armour they have, it represents their durability. You'll notice I've suggested better saves on characters (that should be tougher according to fluff anyways, the longer an Ork lives, the hardier he becomes) and a very few units because they are currently underperforming without them.
I can't see a possible reason why a drugged up elf fighter, or a Geiger rip off alien that lives all of one invasion has an invulnerable save in melee but a warboss, the toughest of a tough race who has been through countless cqc engagements does not. It makes no sense and it makes them a problem because anything you want them to hit they have to hit first or die. But you guys aren't interested in balance. You want Orks to remain an NPC faction.
.
Orks have always been a random race/team in 40k, both in fluff and gameplay. No, it doesn't make them tournament powerhouses, but so what?! Is it really so infernally bad to have one single race/team that isnt super competitive from the get-go? I so sorely miss the good ol' days when you didn't know if the SAG would completely just delete a unit with no chance of a saving throw, or if it would teleport the user into the enemy. Or do nothing at all. Or if your Ork crew would press the big red button and send your looted stuff far into the enemy lines by accident.
I do agree on the hardiness and resilience of Orks' bodies, but not enough to grant them a 3+, but a 5+ is viable. And their ability to continue fighting sans head could be "fixed" with the "gets to do an attack on 4+ when it dies", and I do think that could be nice, even if it was a strategy, not an aura granted by some character. And fpr the fact that 'Nids have better saves and such -fluffwise- is probably due to them being created for a single purpose, and adapted to their foe.
That all being said, you can't expect the game to try and represent all fluff in the game. Stuff would be stupidly broken. Just consider that a Space Marine is "worth" one thousand guardsmen and a Custode is "worth" 1000 (or something along those lines) Space Marines. Or the fact that an Ork player would always win if the opponent didn't have flamers or something to purge all the Ork fungus spores.
Gitdakka wrote: Burna boyz are described as dual purpose. Infantry incinerators and can openers in melee. Currently the rules design let them do none of this. (for the points they have less shooty damage than shoota boyz and less mellee than slugga boyz).
That's kind of the point in a dual-purpose unit? You shoot, then you charge?
Burnas should be D6 shots though, and should give ap -2 in melee. Burna boyz should also have a 5+ save, as they tend to me grease monkies. I also wouldn't mind them being able to repair a nearbye ork vehicle D3 wounds on a 4+.
They should of course cost the same as a boy + flamer +3 for the AP in melee.
I think that the reference to the model is that a space marine is literally encased head to toe in plasteel and ceramite armour, and has a 3+ save. a weirdboy is practically naked (and probably would be if the designers knew what orks had in their crotch, and decency allowed it to be shown), so there's no justification for a 3+ save on the model. Balance-wise, it might help make the unit very good, but it wouldn't reflect the model. and if you don't want to reflect the model, then pick the most balanced army in the game and play as "counts as".
Burna boys, there's no reason for them not to be D6 hits. But, it would make the unit even more expensive.
I would like to see more random bits, EG if there is a mek in the unit, he can make 1 burna fire 2D6 shots instead of D3. if a double is rolled when determining the amount of shots, both the mek and the burna boy are removed after the attack.
little random quirks which make orks the fun army, that's what I want back. basically I would like some of the more unstable inventions to have the "roll a D6, on a 1 it's very bad for you, on a 2-5 it's average, on a 6 it's very bad for the enemy" approach. it was always the orky flavour.
some bloke wrote: I think that the reference to the model is that a space marine is literally encased head to toe in plasteel and ceramite armour, and has a 3+ save. a weirdboy is practically naked (and probably would be if the designers knew what orks had in their crotch, and decency allowed it to be shown), so there's no justification for a 3+ save on the model. Balance-wise, it might help make the unit very good, but it wouldn't reflect the model. and if you don't want to reflect the model, then pick the most balanced army in the game and play as "counts as".
Burna boys, there's no reason for them not to be D6 hits. But, it would make the unit even more expensive.
I would like to see more random bits, EG if there is a mek in the unit, he can make 1 burna fire 2D6 shots instead of D3. if a double is rolled when determining the amount of shots, both the mek and the burna boy are removed after the attack.
little random quirks which make orks the fun army, that's what I want back. basically I would like some of the more unstable inventions to have the "roll a D6, on a 1 it's very bad for you, on a 2-5 it's average, on a 6 it's very bad for the enemy" approach. it was always the orky flavour.
I agree there should be some parity between models and their rules representation, hence why I think they can just give the weirdboy a 5+ invulnerable save from his waaagh energy instead. But giving the normal mek and painboy a 4+ or at least a 5+ save instead of their 6+ seems fair.
Random stuff is fun, and I love using Orks for them but GW sometimes (read: often) overestimates their viability. So I'm torn about how much I want GW to lean into that aspect. Stuff like your "overcharged" burna is fun though and I'd love to see more of that. However I think that would get wonky rules-wise if they're both in a transport since neither are then on the table technically and therefore not x amount of inches within each other. So it would have to be worded with that in mind, same as anyone suggesting improving burnas by stratagems. Those stratagems would have to worded to specifically work on embarked burnas otherwise it's just a waste of everyones time.
However I do think the most we can really hope for is just significant point drops on the units/wargear options that are grossly overcosted right now.
For all the discussion around a space marine being encased in ceramite and hence deserving of a 3+ save, can someone please explain to me then why a guardsman who is basically me with a bullet proof jacket has a better save than (again) what is supposed to be one of the hardiest creatures in the known lore?
Its funny how many people lean on the fluff excuse when it suits them but otherwise want the game 'balanced'.
Random, stupid rules are part of the reason Orks have been awful in other editions. They're not 'Orky' they are idiotic and can stay dead. Yes every faction in the game should be viable competitively.
Please do not suggest stratagems as fixes for the Orks' problems. The reasons we are a poor faction is because we over rely on stratagems to make our units effective in a meta that can easily counter them. This only makes us weaker.
The suggestions here are not from a fluff perspective. If we do that Marines will be the most stupidly broken faction ever. The cost of the weird boy and rule of 3 matched play limitation means that they are deserving of a better save (if he want them to be balanced). The same goes for Warbosses getting an invulnerable save in melee, they are not effective units without them and it is why every list we see has one and only one (that itself relies on a relic to be competitive and has to die to be most effective).
Its odd I think that in the main our shooting units must have a 5+ BS while in other factions that are supposed to focus more on shooting we see countless units with a 2+WS. Tau commander anyone? Farsight is arguably a better melee beatstick than many Ork characters.
Finally the whole 'make Orks super cheap' suggestion is not really suitable either. Some of our units are massively overpriced, true, but there are many that would become far too strong if they were priced appropriately because of the nature of the game mechanics.
Orks are T4, Guardsmen are T3. The superhuman durability IS represented in rules.
I think Warbosses with invulnerable saves would be ridiculously easy to justify TBH. After all, 'E'z de most kunningly brutal (or brutally kunning) of the whole lot, no? The Ork Boyz would KNOW he's the biggest, baddest bastard around. That should give him some boons. 4++ save baseline with a special rule called "Da Big Boss" increasing it to a 3++ if your Warbosses is your Warlord?
Agreed entirely on the randomness; it's not fun for the Ork player, and it's not fun for the opponent when insane damage spikes decide a game. I've seen a Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek kill five times it's own cost in one turn, but I've also seen a mate of mine who plays Orks lose his Warlord Big Mek to snakeeyes on turn 1 back in 6th edition in 5 consecutive tournament rounds. Never mind the fact that both are rather unlikely, every now and then outliers happen, and with traditional Ork RNG design such outliers tend to ruin games.
And no, D6 hit Burna Boyz wouldn't need to become more expensive because the entire point of buffing something is to make it BETTER.
Price cuts across the board would be fine, as long as there's something like "Showing Off" and "More Dakka" cannot be used on mobbed up units, or units can only mob up if one is reduced to half strength. The ability to make 400 point units and then apply multiple stratagems to it is a problem, and makes "god units" that do stupid amounts of damage. Lootas and tankbustas should be cheaper so you can have more of them, and less reliant on stratagems to do their damage.
I agree that an ork should be harder to kill than a guardsman. this worked before because the increased toughness of an ork mattered, and most weapons ignored a 5+ save as much as a 6+ save.
stupid random rules can die, but "edgy gamble" rules were the thing that made orks fun. Orks shouldn't be a reliable army, they should be sub par, and you should have to take risks with their rules to make them viable. I think orks rules should have an element of "gambling" for a brilliant result, but only on the special things - shokk attack guns, perhaps this idea with the burnas.
For making it viable in a vehicle, make it worse if they do it in a vehicle - if the burna rolls a double, the mek and D3 burnas are removed from the unit (worded in such a way as to get around the rules technicalities, rules as intended is that the burnas are dead).
if we try and match the fluff perfectly, then this game will become more chaotic than the warp. Almost every bit of fluff in 40k is contradicted by another piece of fluff somewhere else, it's been written and rewritten and overwritten and added to and so on so many times by so many people that yes, it has a recurring theme, but trying to take an accurate idea of how powerful each race is by the fluff is like trying to decide who will win between the ancient greeks and romans based on the legends of their most amazing fighters. Hercules is not a good measure of how strong a human is.
I think that one fix to orks would be to make them cheaper the more you buy. so the first 10 models are 7 points, next 10 are 6 points, next 10 are 5 points. remove any restrictions that say "1 model in each 10 may take" so that small units remain viable.
Orks also, desperately, need a unit called "Trukkboys" which is tuned specifically to riding in a trukk. cheaper models, smaller squad size, special rules to work with trukks.
orks shooting should get better by an increase in quantity, not quality. I think that there should be a higher allowance for big shootas in boys mobs with shootas (easily fixed with the new codex system - have "shoota boys" and "Slugga Boys" as 2 different entries).
Separating shootas and sluggas would allow for rules which more accurately reflect the units wonts - shootas might have a rule of +1 to hit when shooting when there's more than 20 (same as grots), sluggas might have the same rule but for close combat. Then include 'ard boys to give the army some armour saves and you've got a much more flexible core of troops, who aren't paying for rules they won't use. You can keep "mob rule" but simple add that if the unit comprises of models with both of these rules, neither work. that way if sluggas mob up with shootas, they lose their benefits, but if all the shootas then die, the sluggas start working again.
I would also love to see separate wargear lists for the klans. This would take some working out, but, for example, the basics (slugga, choppa, shoota etc) remain the same but snakebites get access to squig weapons, bad moonz get the basics but a little cheaper, deff skulls get some looted wargear from other armies, evil sunz get more options for vehicles, etc. Then add a rule that you can only take units from different klans in the same detachment if you have a "great waaagh" banner bearer, a generic banner bearer who is a points tax for cherry-picking your units (as opposed to laying this tax on a model like ghazzie, who you might want to take without mixing your klans).
some bloke wrote: stupid random rules can die, but "edgy gamble" rules were the thing that made orks fun. Orks shouldn't be a reliable army, they should be sub par, and you should have to take risks with their rules to make them viable. I think orks rules should have an element of "gambling" for a brilliant result, but only on the special things - shokk attack guns, perhaps this idea with the burnas.
Absolutely not. Such an army is both frustrating to play and to play against. If you cannot even rely on your own army doing roughly what you tell it to do people will just quit. You should be fighting your opponent's army, not your own special rules.
I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel or arbitrarily buff t-shirt saves, we just need options for 'eavy armour, mega armour and cybork body on appropriate characters back!
On the subject of an auto hitting anti-tank gun, yea it was called the Zzapp Gun. It had 24" range, auto hit and rolled 2d6 for strength.
Burnaboys and Kans legitimately make me sad. Really cool looking models (I'd even go as far as to say that burnaboys is the coolest ork infantry kit) ruined by bad rule to the point that I'm having doubts of using them even in casual game.
I've never understood what is the problem with giving all ork specialists like lootas, burnaboys, tankbustas a 5+ save. Helps them out with survivability, synergises nicely Loot it!, and does not result in spamming. If an ork is cunning enough to get teeth for his equipment, surely he'll pad his armor a bit? (or in the case of lootas, his weapon IS the armor since it covers a good portion of his body).
I remember there was a really solid idea by Jidmah or Englishman way before our codex came out of spanners giving buffs to lootas/burnaboys they are included into, like increasing their number of shots.
Burnaboys need to have d6 damage flamer period. I see no reason for it to be much worse than imperial counterparts, their flamers are freaking huge! Also in fluff they cut enemy vehicles apart for mekboys, and this has 0 representation on the table. Something like +1 to wound an enemy vehicle in melee, or rolls of 6 are mortal wounds.
Kans at the very least need access to kultures. Surely, if grot was tough enough to shove aside other gretchins and get attention of mek to become a Kan pilot, it means he has a bit of orkiness in himself?
Doesn't the Snakebite warlord trait already help the kans with morale? That's how I have been playing it as they have the <Snakebite> and <Gretchin> keywords.
I would prefer they were improved with better stats or cheaper points rather than adding more re-rolls and FnP which slows down the game...
Kroem wrote: Doesn't the Snakebite warlord trait already help the kans with morale? That's how I have been playing it as they have the <Snakebite> and <Gretchin> keywords.
I would prefer they were improved with better stats or cheaper points rather than adding more re-rolls and FnP which slows down the game...
As far as I know, you can. But it's still not anywhere near worth it IMO. Like their damage isn't enough in either shooting or CC and they're too slow to get into CC anyways. Removing morale actually makes them pretty durable per point but that's still not worth it IMO.
Giving them kulturs and the "psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the stompa would make them viable. The most probably change is still just a 5-point drop or something.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
Except hordes is boring as all hell to play, i think every ork player who played competitively in 8th during our index would agree. Requiring an army to field 250-300 models is boring, irritating and slow. And your "Quantity over Quality" is true except our crap units are over priced, take a look at all of our brand new Buggies. Almost every one of them is anywhere from 20-25% over priced, We pay almost as much for a Squig Buggy as Guard pay for a Leman Russ. A Squigbuggy is 140pts a Leman russ is 152. Which would you rather have in your army? Ohh, and keep in mind, most IG players think Leman Russ tanks aren't that good. For a fun comparison, a Leman russ is T8, 12 wounds with a 3+ save and 12' movement as well as a built in ability to fire its main weapon twice...which I have never seen them not do. The Squig Buggy is T6 with 9 wounds and a 4+ save is 2' slower and its weapons are mostly crap.
I used to love the randomness of the faction but my biggest problem was that the random charts did not scale well. Remember the old SAG rules? Double 1s, you die. Double 2s you shoot your own army and your opponent chooses what, Double 3s you miss and hit the next closest unit, Double 4s use the small blast template at lower strength, Double 5s you are fired at he enemy and now engaged in close combat with your target, Roll a 5 and a 6 and you hit your target (yay) but only what was directly under the center dot of the template and only at S10. And finally Double 6s....you create a D Template and everything underneath is killed.....SO 1 good result and 6 results that are either terrible or sub par....not to mention if you rolled a 1 and a 2, a 1 and a 3 a 1 and a 4, a 2 and a 3 or a 1 and a 5 you were basically wasting your time as most vehicles would simply be to armored to be killed ( you might get a glance on AV12). So the likelihood that your weapon would be bad was SIGNIFICANTLY more likely then your weapon doing its assigned job.
As for "Don't Press Dat" What was the benefit? There wasn't one. it was literally a mechanic built into the game to nerf looted vehicles.
Horst wrote: Price cuts across the board would be fine, as long as there's something like "Showing Off" and "More Dakka" cannot be used on mobbed up units, or units can only mob up if one is reduced to half strength. The ability to make 400 point units and then apply multiple stratagems to it is a problem, and makes "god units" that do stupid amounts of damage. Lootas and tankbustas should be cheaper so you can have more of them, and less reliant on stratagems to do their damage.
A 400pt unit that has 1 purpose, is heavily over priced and relies exclusively on not 1, not 2, not 3 but 4 stratagems, 3 of which are used every turn. Mob up (used once), Dakka on 5s, shoot twice and Grot Shields. Ohh and you need 150-180pts of grots to shield them or they die turn 1. Also, if you think that is a "God Unit" I need to show you the Imperial Soup lists, a Castellan costs about the same and is better in basically every way imaginable.
I do agree with you though that Tankbustas and Lootas need to be significantly cheaper and rely a lot less on stratagems to be useful...except tankbustas aren't really even using stratagems as they are always in a vehicle or they die the following turn to anything the enemy has.
Personally, a lot of the codex seems weak and rather lackluster, there was a rumor floating about that the codex had to be rewritten because it was OP across the board and resulted in games ending turn1.......I don't see that at all. I mean, literally nothing in that codex gives me that feeling. Unless Mek Gunz were 50% cheaper in the 1st codex and gained stratagems/klan rules and that most of our units were significantly cheaper. Like stormboyz being able to deepstrike sounds cool but they are so over priced and underwhelming that I can't see that as a useful strategy unless they were able to do that turn 1 and somehow got around the 50% reserve rules.
I really want to see some sweeping price cuts for the ork codex but I fear we are going to have to wait for the next big change which isn't for another 6 months or so.
I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.
My personal list.
HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. Fpr Orks os specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!
-Ghazzy should be around 200pts with current rules.
-Big Meks have me puzzled. I would like them to be something more than a platform for the shock or the KFF. The big mekaniak doesn't cut it.
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.
- Deffkilla needs S6 base and more weapon options.
- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.
- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.
- a runt herd per grot squad should be free.
- burnas need a 5+save and 1d6 flamer and a new rule for pyromaniak. My proposal would be to allow them to shoot with a second profile 1d3 f5 -1 range 12" (imagine a twist of a nozzle to concenrrate the "fire").
- tankbustas and lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save
- nobs are mostly ok. I would give 1 gretching free per 5 instead of charging 4pts.
- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?
- nobs in warbikes are waaay too expensive. With multiple damage weapons they will never be as resilient as they used to be. Therefore, take a nob price (14) and add a bike (approx 13pts) and there you go. 27pts a nob before additional equipment.
- bikes down to 19-20. Or give them the billowing cloud rule back. Maybe instead of -1 to hit as the strat, give them a +1 armour if moved to get them closer to every other bike in the game (as 3+ save). Apply to biker nobs as well.
- reduce 20% buggies pts. The squigbuggy however needs a rule rewrite. It will not work even if the cost is halved.
- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.
- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.
- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.
- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.
- mek shop. If a mek is within 3" the mek can use the workshop to customize a unit within 3". If so, apply as today's iteration but not forgoing any action as currently. If it is used by a mek, the upgrades are obtained with a 4+ instead of a 6+. If by a big mek, upgrades at 2+. If a 1 is rolled, the model suffers d3 mortal wounds as the "repair" has been a disaster.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.
Agreed on most of the mentioned stuff. Maybe painboys could be less abusable if you could pick an infantry/bike unit within 6" and that unit gains a 5+++?
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.
Agreed on most of the mentioned stuff. Maybe painboys could be less abusable if you could pick an infantry/bike unit within 6" and that unit gains a 5+++?
Yea I agree on much that was said, apart from the Stompa comment lol.
I also agree that Pain boys need a change in rules to be useful and a 5+++ whether targeted or smaller range sounds reasonable. It has all the benefits stated earlier but also helps synergize with the Snakebites kultur.
The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:
Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1
In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit
PiñaColada wrote: The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:
Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1
In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit
I like this a lot. Quite flavorful and is certainly a lot more usable than their current state.
PiñaColada wrote: The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:
Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1
In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit
It's a neat idea. Keep Assault 1 for the cutta and give the weapon a similar profile for CC. Solved. Otherwise you can only use the cutta profile in CC every 2 rounds of combat (as only in your shooting). Even with a 5+ and this weapon they should cost no more than 10pts.
Someone with time should do a summary and forward it to GW
Well, I don't think the Cutta profile should be assault, it's a torch. You can still have an 18" threat range if they're in a trukk (19" if ES) so it's still quite useable as a normal shooting attack. And if someone consolidates into your burnas to shut down their shooting then they'll hit you with auto-hitting S6 AP-2 shots. That basically autokills guardsmen. They would still keep their current AP-2 CC attacks as well.
Even with my suggested profile they'd still probably be a bit overcosted at 12ppm but I'd be okay with that cost then at least.
I still want the suggestion that was thrown around when the New plastic Killa Kans were released but they should be able to take dual melee/dual ranged weapons. 2 rokkits a kan running around would be quite a threat as a unit of 6.
mhalko1 wrote: I still want the suggestion that was thrown around when the New plastic Killa Kans were released but they should be able to take dual melee/dual ranged weapons. 2 rokkits a kan running around would be quite a threat as a unit of 6.
Even just making rokkits more modular when being mounted on vehicles would help alleviate some of the problem. Make them assault D3 (or a flat 2) when mounted on vehicles, versus when run on infantry, similar to how Dark Lances become assault on vehicles for Drukhari. That way tankbustas don't get buffed to the roof while making rokkit launchas a more palatable choice for being mounted on vehicles, especially as index options for trukks and battlewagons, while also making them feel less of a tax for guys who have to take it like Morka/Gorkanauts and a lot of the new warbuggy replacements.
Kroem wrote: 7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...
They won't make them half a point.
To be fair I wouldn't mind them staying 7ppm if other units were made better to compensate.
For me, they're a 6ppm unit, given the capabilities of other units that cost a similar amount.
You're right they won't, but I think the 'correct' price lies somewhere in between 6 and 7!
I like how in power level they price for blocks of 10 instead of individual models, if points did the same it would give the designers more room for minor points tweeks.
e.g. you could make 10 orks cost 64 points so that each model effectively costs 6.4.
Kroem wrote: 7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...
They won't make them half a point.
To be fair I wouldn't mind them staying 7ppm if other units were made better to compensate.
For me, they're a 6ppm unit, given the capabilities of other units that cost a similar amount.
You're right they won't, but I think the 'correct' price lies somewhere in between 6 and 7!
I like how in power level they price for blocks of 10 instead of individual models, if points did the same it would give the designers more room for minor points tweeks.
e.g. you could make 10 orks cost 64 points so that each model effectively costs 6.4.
Interestingly orks went down in PL but up in points.
I suspect the 'free' tankbuster bombz might have been an attempt to boost orks from being worth 6.5 points each to 7 each.
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.
If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.
If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.
Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.
If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.
Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.
No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.
I think you're right that they are priced due to the ability to 'da jump' or deepstrike them, that's why they feel too expensive when charging up the board in the traditional manner.
It is something that came up as restricting Orks design space in another thread, as everything has to balanced around potential deep strike insertion!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.
If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.
Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.
No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.
Kill 15, they lose d6 extra from Morale.
Kill 15 Bloodletters, you lose 8+d6.
In addition, your morale mitigating characters are below 10 wounds. Nothing that helps Letters with morale are. (There is one character that helps with morale and is at 4 wounds, but he's Nurgle, and only lets you roll 2 and take the lower.)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.
Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.
If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.
Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.
No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.
Kill 15, they lose d6 extra from Morale.
Kill 15 Bloodletters, you lose 8+d6.
Wrong. There's a 1/6 chance they gain D6 models back to their unit....
In addition, your morale mitigating characters are below 10 wounds. Nothing that helps Letters with morale are. (There is one character that helps with morale and is at 4 wounds, but he's Nurgle, and only lets you roll 2 and take the lower.)
So? We're the slowest army in the game with our base movement and as has been discussed, the Boyz unit is thrown up field without support. Not to mention the existence of Snipers that are about to storm the meta.
Look at it this way-Orks get 2-4 attacks on base models alone.
Bloodletters get 1, or 2 on the charge.
Orks also natively have a better charge reroll than Letters can get by bringing a supporting character, they can advance and charge with support, they can go up to 2+ to-hit as well...
JNAProductions wrote: Look at it this way-Orks get 2-4 attacks on base models alone.
Bloodletters get 1, or 2 on the charge.
Orks also natively have a better charge reroll than Letters can get by bringing a supporting character, they can advance and charge with support, they can go up to 2+ to-hit as well...
Yes and I've addressed all of these points above. 1 or 2 attacks that have AP-3 and hit on 2s. I'd rather have them than 2-4 attacks with no AP hitting on 3s.
3D6 charge is better than anything Ork Boyz have access to.
The banner nob is extremely expensive and unlikely to be in a great position since both Boyz and Bloodletters are teleported/deep strike into enemy lines.
Ork boys problem is not against bloodletters, it's against grot. So an internal balance problem. Not external.
At 7 pts, orks are too expensive to field in numbers. Again I understand that 6 could also be too little under certain conditionals, no matter the additional cost associated (CPs or psiq powers).
Bombing orks is a good tactic, albeit expensive but the core of the army is currently 3x10 grots. Culprit could be the CP system, but they truth is the only reason why we max out with grot is because basic orks are having a tough time staying on the table.
Maybe an intermediate solution could be giving the heavy weapon for free (which are now overcosted). If so, the basic cost stays "high" but you get something extra to mitigate the point investment.
Please, when comparing externally remember that Orks have ONLY 2 troop choices. Grot or orks. Both need to be viable.
I think 7 points is about right in the Ork codex, considering the Klan traits and other associated stratagems. The bigger issue is the cost of weapons and other units in the army that don't make up for their increase in cost.
Rokkit launchas should not cost 12 points in a boy squad, at most maybe 5. Big Shootas need a revision in general IMO, as discussed before, either making it rapid fire 3 or giving it AP-1 for its current points cost, otherwise dropping it down even further given how inconsequential it is as a weapon. Give boyz the options to take burnas as special weapons and I feel like they start to have more potential punch without having to change their base points cost.
I agree with Orkimedez that we have to be careful regarding points changes with troops given we have no ability to soup and that we only have 2 options. Make it too much one way or the other and its spam only one and ignore the other like in the SM codex.
Would be cool if Orks could get Pulsa weapons back that interfered with Inv saves somehow. That'd give Orks a means to deal with Castellans without Kamikaze-ing in with a Warboss or Tankbustas. Like, "Models hit must reroll successful invulnerable saves until the end of the turn" or something.
Then again, it'd require something worth shooting at the Knight in the first place...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Would be cool if Orks could get Pulsa weapons back that interfered with Inv saves somehow. That'd give Orks a means to deal with Castellans without Kamikaze-ing in with a Warboss or Tankbustas. Like, "Models hit must reroll successful invulnerable saves until the end of the turn" or something.
Then again, it'd require something worth shooting at the Knight in the first place...
I'd be behind something like that. The only pulsa weapon I really remember is the pulsa rokkit from Apoc back from 5th edition. They could do a miniature version on a buggy or alternative mek gun where it does something similar to a deathstrike missile launcher (without the arbitrary countdown), where you put a marker down and it affects all enemy units wholly within 9" to have to re-roll successful invulnerable saves and halves their movement and advance rolls until the start of your next turn. Obviously it'd be one shot. The only problem is that it seems like a very "all or nothing" type weapon, but I'm wary of giving it a profile that requires hitting an opponent to cause effects, mainly because it might infringe on existing Ork weaponry (similar to how Smasha Gunz have monopolized ranged AT in Ork armies currently outside of Tankbustas).
I'm really digging different profiles for weapons on vehicles and weapons on infantry. That way you could mess with rokkit launcha/kb/bshoota without fear of overbuffing something like tankbustas.
As much as I'd love seing big shoota become rapid fire 3, I feel that it wouldn't mesh that well with assault profile of shootas. Maybe let it have different profiles depending on range, similar to tau breacher shotgun. Giving it AP-1 could also work.
36" assault 3
18" assault 6
9" assault 9 (so it won't work on deepstrike)
What do you think, would giving all boys an innate 6+++, with doks/klan traits being able to bump it up by +1 or providing rerolls make their price of 7 pts more fair, or it'd be a bump them way above?
IMHO, the problem with the big shoota is that it was created in resemblance to the heavy bolter. It inheritated the number of shoots and sort of rolle as long range support at least in 4th ed). As such, it suffers the same fate. How long since you saw a heavy bolter?
Many things have changed since but the weapon profile, hence the problem. If a shoota is assault 2 18", a big shoota can't just be +1 shot. It has to at least double the number of shots. So, assault 4 should be the bare minimum. Dropping them for free where accessible as they are a gimmick would also go in the right direction.
Supashoota should adapt accordingly which would up the dakkajet output to 24 (6*4) shoots. Drop price to 5 points and the dakkajet becomes a good airsupport at 120pts.
What do you think, would giving all boys an innate 6+++, with doks/klan traits being able to bump it up by +1 or providing rerolls make their price of 7 pts more fair, or it'd be a bump them way above?
Universal snake bites for free is too simple and unnecessary IMHO. To be fair, boyz are close to the 7pts of net worth. Most of us would agree that 6.5 it's their real value.
Take 10 boys no upgrades. 70pts -- 7 points per boy.
Take 10 boys with big shoota. 75pts -- 7.5 per boy
Now give the b.shoota for free. 70/75*7 for an approx 6.53pts per boy.
I think just lowering the Big shoota to 2 points makes it viable, same with the supa-shoota to 6 points. It's unlikely that we get too many actual datasheet changes (or any at all) so I'd rather have them go to things that need changing more than that IMO.
If they gave boyz a 6+ invulnerable save instead of their normal "t-shirt" save then I think 7ppm is the perfect price. Combined with Deffskullz it'd either be a 5++ or 6++ rerolling 1's. And they should have a 7+ normal save so 'ard boyz can work on them (oh, and that's +2 to their save for 1CP). Also interactions with cover/loot it. Blood axes should get +2 to cover saves for infantry to compensate, which would be the same on boyz but better for everything else.
All Ork infantry should have a 6++ IMO (meaning Nobz, MANZ and all the characters and excluding grots) simply because they believe that little sheet of metal they put on their chest is going to stop bullets so it ends up working that way.
A 6++ on any ork infantry treads a little bit on the deffskullz trait but it would be improved for them (a 5++ might be too much, if so then rerolling 1's is still decent especially combined with a KFF). Also, it would only work on infantry, not vehicles (maybe bikes). And that kultur has some other benefits that are really practical.
I do think that the best way to fix the fact that boys are overpriced based on the fact that they might just be used in this powerful combo, is to separate boyz into several different codex entries.
So you'd have trukkboyz who are tailored for going in trukks, Normal boyz who are tailored for going in battlewagons, Footsloggaz who are tailored for footslogging it across the field, and jumpladz who are tailored for working with da jump and the tellyporta stratagem.
They could easily be put under a heading of "Boyz", and have limitations that they lose any special abilities if they mob up (even if they mob up with another unit which is the same).
Ideas for their unique abilities:
Trukkboys - up to 12 models, can disembark after the trukk moves, if the trukk moves half it's move or less, and they die on a roll of a 1 for each model.
Normal boys are mobs up to 20
Footsloggas come in larger mobs, 20 to 40
jumpladz would have a bonus when they are tellyported or jumped, perhaps a reroll on the charge after jumping, or being able to jump to 7" from the enemy instead (make sure they have no access to burnas).something. Mobs up to 20 or 30, depending on what balances right.
This way you have boys for trukks, boys for wagons, boys for footslogging, and boys for tellyporting. all priced accordingly.
Then you need to tweak "Da Jump" to not work on mobs of over 20, unless it's jumplads, so you don't get people jumping the footsloggas in turn 1. I'd also like it to cause a couple of wounds to represent the weirdboy not accounting for how high off the ground they reappear. D3 wounds, perhaps, and D6 if over 15 models. IMHO that's the sort of little touches which make an orky ability orky.
You could also include skarboyz, 'ardboys, flash-boys (more special weapons). If you separate the different personalities of boy, you can have them paying for what they are used for, not for the best possible way of using them.
I just think that's way too many new datasheets. Also jumpladz getting a reroll to charges when Orks already have 'ere we go is obviously not going to work.
A simple split, with normal boyz and trukkboyz could work. Give trukkboyz the buff you mentioned above. Also give them the option of taking up to 3 special weapons regardless of unit size and BS4+ if they're inside a trukk/battlewagon. Then there's an argument for both shooty and CC trukkboyz. Max unit size is 12.
Edit: Just to clarify, the unit size would be 10 to 12. Maybe that you can only take the third special weapon if the unit is actually maxed out at 12
As fas as I see it, there is no way GW will change so drastically the ork boys. At least, until there is a new kit to replace the ancient one. Don't change what is not broken.
If we follow GW trend on models tied to content of boxes, the only thing we can reasonably expect is points adjustments. Anything else is wish listing.
Back in the day we had boys, trukkboys, granadiers and grots. Ah! And warbosses turned elites such as MANZ and bikernobs into troop choices. Those times are over.
The mere fact that they used a picture with Orks in it makes me happy, even though it probably means nothing
First thing I noticed was the fact that its like 500ish points of orkz in the picture and a couple thousand points of Space Marines and IG/Knights.
Anyway, to the point of boyz on the 6/7ppm debate.
Easy answer, no, boyz are not 7ppm, they should be 6. Klan traits are great, but as has been pointed out ad nauseam, no other faction had to go up in points for their basic troops when they got their version of Kulture. To add to that, 7ppm from 6 is a 17% increase in price. Dakkax3 gives Ork shooting a similar boost which compensates for the price increase in shooting, however, the durability issue is a bit important. So because of the army wide Dakkax3 rule ork boyz shooting stayed roughly consistent with index boyz. Durability though went down by that 17% since we didn't receive an army wide increase in durability or even a boyz wide increase in durability. So unless you are playing as Snakebites your durability is now worse. As far as speed, we are now slower point for point because of this chance and again, unless you pick evil sunz you are at a loss.
The gist of this is that boyz got worse point for point between index and codex and the only additional thing to add into the discussion is 1 Tankbusta bomb per 10 boyz which is stupid because why would you ever take more then 1 tankbusta bomb anyway since you can only ever use 1 unless you feel like wasting CP to throw 3 at the same time.
Now a lot of people argue that boyz at 6ppm were over powered...which is not really the case as seen by the fact that nobody was winning tournaments as orkz except 1 tournament in London where the guy slow played to the point where complaints were filed but not acted upon. I argue that even with klan rules orkz at 6ppm is fine. I also argue that Stormboyz at 7ppm is fine as well. Significant increase in speed but no durability boost and no bonus for 20+ models makes them a good unit at 7, any higher and they are ignorable and easily killed.
For the sake of argument though, I doubt GW will ever lower the price of boyz back to 6ppm, so how do they increase boyz stats without breaking them? I think a simple increase from 6+ to 5+ is more then warranted. Compare Orkz at 7ppm to other factions troops who are 7ppm. Tau Firewarriors immediately spring to mind and good lord are they dangerous. 7ppm gets you a S5 30' rapid fire gun that hits on 4s on a model with a built in 4+ save. On top of that, they can have a Fireblade nearby to give them +1 shot at half range and can give ALL units within range a reroll of 1s to his target. So a small onion of death of 24 and a fireblade cost the same as a single unit of 30 boyz. Fireblade shoots and has a 1/2 chance to give reroll 1s. Those 24 firewarriors at half range (15 for them) shoot 60 shots, rerolling 1s gives them 35 hits wounding on 3s (S5 Vs. T4) gives them, 24ish wounds. So against our current orkz that is 20ish dead Orkz. On the morale test unless their is another 30 blob nearby they are running off the table. At Max range the same tau are significantly less scary, of course they can also come as a Bork'an sept and gain 6' to their rapid fire weapons....that means they are basically armed with 36' rapid fire weapons.....scary as all hell. So which would you rather have? A unit that sucks in CC but can literally blow you off the table at 36' range with 24 shots or 18' range with 60 S5 shots or a unit that requires you to get into CC to inflict damage.
For boyz our support weapons organic to the unit are trash as well. 12pts for a rokkit that has a 1/3rd chance to hit? 5pts for a 36' range 3 shot weapon that will reliably hit once per turn....unless the unit is advancing...and when was the last time a unit of boyz footslogging hadn't been advancing? Rokkitz should be 5ppm and I might consider using them again, Big shoota's need a buff and a price cut. Assault 5 4ppm. 15 shots at 12pts = 5 hits and 3ish wounds vs a Space Marine which equals 1 dead Marine. not bad, not good, but not bad.
I wouldn't read too much into the FAQ announcement. Its just them telling us its delayed. The fact that Orks are in the pic is a coincidence undoubtedly.
Semper has it on Boyz, they're not good enough to be 7ppm but GW won't change their cost. I very much doubt the FAQ wikk do anything, given the post, actually.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I wouldn't read too much into the FAQ announcement. Its just them telling us its delayed. The fact that Orks are in the pic is a coincidence undoubtedly.
Semper has it on Boyz, they're not good enough to be 7ppm but GW won't change their cost. I very much doubt the FAQ wikk do anything, given the post, actually.
Yup, I doubt we get much out of the FAQ if anything. This really sucks because for another fething year my Warbikes and deffkoptas are sitting on the shelf collecting dust because GW couldn't be bothered to write decent rules to make them worth taking.
We all know that there are plenty of uncompetitive codex entries and weapons that need points reductions (Stompa, Buggies, etc). Hopefully GW does too. I also think that some are too cheap and too good, making them virtually auto-take in competitive lists. This is boring! For example, Wierdboyz with Da Jump, Bad moon Lootas or Tankbustas + Showin' Off strat, minimum sized grot units + Grot Shields strat, Evil Sunz Meganobz or Gorkanaut/Morkanaut + Tellyporta strat, Deathskull battalion that consists entirely of single-model units, Smasha Gun batteries, Da Killa Klaw relic, and Da Souped-Up Shokka relic. Hopefully once other things become more competitive, these won't be so automatic, but some like Lootas and Smasha Gunz may need a points increase anyway.
But beyond those issues, there's a larger problem: 8th edition rules for line-of-sight, cover, transport vehicle disembarkation, and screening (or lack thereof) create a brutal environment for footslogging or transport-borne assault infantry with poor armor saves. With the overall much more lethal battle environment, Orks have to rely on tricks and gimmicks to get into close combat rather than marching down the board or hopping in Trukks like we used to. This is why you see the Da Jump power, Tellyporta strat, and Deffkilla Wartrike with a herd of Bonebreakas used over and over again in so many competitive close-combat-based Ork lists, and why the Evil Sunz clan is so common. Again, this is boring! It's also a generic problem in 8th edition, but it feels especially weird for Orks to have become one of the best deep strike armies!
In order to fix that, non-deep-strike strategies and methods of getting to the fight need to become more viable. Simply tweaking the points cost won't be enough. Here are some rules changes that I think would help to accomplish this, and make the codex more balanced and fun overall, with more variety in competitive builds:
Units:
Spoiler:
HQ Units:
- Bring back codex entries for Mega-armored warboss, Warboss on Warbike, and Big Mek without mega armor
- Big Mek in Mega-Armor: Tellyport Blasta is 18" range and can target characters
- Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun: Shokk Attack Gun is Heavy 2D6; kills himself and deals D6 mortal wounds to units within 6" on a roll of snake eyes for either number of shots or strength
Troops Units:
- Gretchin: All infantry automatically gain the Grot Shields strategem, but it works on a 4+, not a 2+
Dedicated Transport Units:
- Trukk: models can disembark after the Trukk moved. If the Trukk also advanced, roll a die for each disembarking model and destroy it on a roll of 4+
Fast Attack Units:
- Boomdakka Snazzwagon: "Billowing Fumes" rule also applies to anything behind it from the perspective of the firing model; add Spiked Ram ability
- Kustom Boosta-Blasta: Delete the silly Grot gunner; Rivet Kannon is Assault 8
- Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy: Add "Beer and medi-squigs" rule: All Ork infantry within 12" get a 6+++ FNP save
- Stormboyz: Delete the "Stormboyz Strike" rule
- Warbikers: Add "Billowing Fumes" rule
Elite Units:
- Burna boyz: Burna shooting profile is d6-1 auto-hits and ignores cover; assault profile is S7 AP -4, -1 to hit
- Biker Nobz: add "Billowing Fumes" rule
Heavy Support Units:
- Big Gunz: Get official codex entries; no separate crew rules just like Mek Gunz; Lobba is Heavy D6+1 and -1 AP - Battlewagon: BS4+ (due to Grot gunners); Killkannon is Heavy 2D6+2, but S7 rather than S8
- Killa Kans: T6 rather than T5
- Mek Gunz: Crew models are built into the gun and everything is on a base; Bubblechukka is Heavy 3D6, SD6+1
Clans:
Spoiler:
- Goffs: Also +1 damage for all melee weapons that do more than 1 damage or have a variable damage value
- Deathskulls clan: Delete the 6++ save for everyone; the clan already has enough bonuses!
- Snakebites: 6+++ save can stack with the one provided by a painboy or the Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy (but not both) to become 5+++; all models get +1 to wound against ≥10 wound non-vehicle models
Psychic powers:
Spoiler:
- 'Eadbanger: Range reduced to 12", but the power can target specific enemy models (including characters) rather than just the closest enemy model
- Da Jump: Warp Charge value 8; if the casting Wierdboy suffers perils of the warp, roll a die for each model in the jumped squad; on a 4+, that model is destroyed
- Da Krunch: Rules changed to deal D3 mortal wounds for every full 5 models in the squad
Strategems:
Spoiler:
- Boarding action: One model may make all of its attacks, rather than all models may make one attack
- Force-Field Projekta: Delete and turn it into a Relic KFF with a permanent effect
- 'Ard Boyz: save improves to 4+, not 5+
- Tellyporta: Models can only tellyport within 24" of a model with a tellyport-locata squig, which is a new piece of wargear that becomes available to Big Meks and Kommando Nobz for 10 points
- Grot shields: Delete (see above; all grots get it automatically on a 4+ now)
- Showin' Off: Add 1 to the number of attacks made by each model's shooting weapons, rather than shooting twice
- Kill Kroozer Broadside: D6 mortal wounds per character; D6 mortal wounds per 5 full models in the squad
- Skarboyz: can be combined with 'Ard boyz
- Monster Hunters: Replace rules with +1 to hit and +1D per wound against ≥10 wound or vehicle models
- New strategem: "Bailin' Out" for 2 CP: one unit in a Trukk can disembark after the Trukk advances and only suffer casualties on a 6+ rather than the normal 4+
Relics:
Spoiler:
- Da Dead Shiny Shoota: S5 rather than S4
- Da Killa Klaw: Still -1 to hit, like the regular Power Klaw
- Da Souped-Up-Shokka: allow SAG mek to re-roll one or both dice when determining number of shots (but still kills himself if the first roll is snake eyes, see above)
- Supa-Cybork Body: 4+++ FNP save
- Gitstoppa shells: S and AP increase by 3, not 1
