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I'd like to see some more Ork weapons that autohit that aren't Burnas or the like, operating on the idea that there's just so much Dakka that you can't possibly miss. Like, some sort of anti-tank weapon that just fires a barrage of explosives in an area where most of them will always miss but you'll always get some hits could be a "Range 48", Heavy 2, always hits" weapon in game terms. The fetish of only representing Ork shooting as "Heavy 248, only hits on a 9+ every other Sunday if it's an even date" is hampering Ork design space, and creates the possibility for crazy performance spikes that just isn't fun for anyone involved.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd like to see some more Ork weapons that autohit that aren't Burnas or the like, operating on the idea that there's just so much Dakka that you can't possibly miss. Like, some sort of anti-tank weapon that just fires a barrage of explosives in an area where most of them will always miss but you'll always get some hits could be a "Range 48", Heavy 2, always hits" weapon in game terms. The fetish of only representing Ork shooting as "Heavy 248, only hits on a 9+ every other Sunday if it's an even date" is hampering Ork design space, and creates the possibility for crazy performance spikes that just isn't fun for anyone involved.
Like Traktor Cannons?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Not quite what I had in mind, I thought more like some sort of long-range shotgun or a shrapnel bomb thrower or something, but yeah, why not? Like, if you had a "Flakk Bommablasta" or something as an anti-air gun and it automatically hit fliers but rolled normally against other targets, for example, You could use this sort of weapon to give Orks specialized shooting units that are good at countering specific things that Orks struggle with without making these units completely mad against other types of targets due to the ridiculous rate of fire that would be required for them to be good if they only hit on 5+ with D^3.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I mean, as much as I'd like new weapons or units I think it'd be easier to fix what we currently have than invent new things.
We're not far off having all the tools we need, we have anti infantry in spades and some of it is half decent. Its our anti armour where we struggle and that's where we could do with improvements to existing units.
A unit can't be measured with the assumption that it has enumerable grot shields or is always shooting twice. That's where GW have fallen over, I think.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not quite what I had in mind, I thought more like some sort of long-range shotgun or a shrapnel bomb thrower or something, but yeah, why not? Like, if you had a "Flakk Bommablasta" or something as an anti-air gun and it automatically hit fliers but rolled normally against other targets, for example, You could use this sort of weapon to give Orks specialized shooting units that are good at countering specific things that Orks struggle with without making these units completely mad against other types of targets due to the ridiculous rate of fire that would be required for them to be good if they only hit on 5+ with D^3.
Yeah, that's something I could get behind. This could potentially make grotzookas worth taking since they have short range but with auto-hitting (assuming only against infantry) it basically makes it an upgunned flamer to help get rid of chaff. This idea also makes sense since you lose out on potential dakka dakka dakka procs since you don't roll to hit. The biggest issue with this approach is points cost since it's a fine line between cost-effective and garbage/broken with stuff like this, and we know GW almost always costs things assuming its on the higher end of the random spectrum.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I mean, as much as I'd like new weapons or units I think it'd be easier to fix what we currently have than invent new things.
We're not far off having all the tools we need, we have anti infantry in spades and some of it is half decent. Its our anti armour where we struggle and that's where we could do with improvements to existing units.
A unit can't be measured with the assumption that it has enumerable grot shields or is always shooting twice. That's where GW have fallen over, I think.
True. I think the biggest issue for us anti-tank wise is that we don't have anything reliable besides smasha gunz (due to cost efficiency) or easily accessible. Besides making rokkit launchas cheaper, would it be worth considering if they had D3 shots instead of just 1? I would actually consider taking it on boyz squads then and it makes it less of a tax on vehicles that have it tacked on. The only caveat would be making tankbustas bonkers strong compared to lootas (which also, frankly, needs a revision). Maybe make it so you only get D3 shots for a rokkit launcha if its mounted on a vehicle (kind of like how the Dark Lance becomes an assault weapon on a vehicle versus being heavy if carried by infantry)?
Our CC is also an area where we struggle with anti-tank, due to our lack of high damage options. Besides the Killa Klaw boss and bonebreaka battlewagons, I can't really remember killing many tanks in CC. I still think making the PK do D6 damage is the best way to rectify this, since it makes meganobz actually scary against big targets and makes taking a Klaw viable versus a Big Choppa in Boyz units. Make Killsaws Damage 3 to compensate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 18:11:55
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
The only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A ton of marine players with 3+ armour save models keep telling me it doesn't help them any though....
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
You'll notice in my post that you quoted I answered this question for you. They have worse saves than Nobs, which makes no sense. The same for Deffkilla Wartrikes. That are the character equivalent of buggies. Oh and of course most of all it would help make the vast amount of units in our codex that are garbage actually semi-viable. Your claim these changes make the book broken are laughable.
only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
I don't really care what you think. Please enlighten me as to what price you think a Stomps needs to be to see competitive play though, I could do with a laugh.
It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
An Actual Englishman wrote: My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);
Grots - leave as is.
Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.
Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?
Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.
SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.
Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.
Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.
Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.
Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.
New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.
Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.
Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.
Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.
Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.
Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.
Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.
Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.
Lootas - give them a 4+ save.
Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.
Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.
Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.
Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.
Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.
I'll comment more once I have chance.
A couple of these might be realistic. But all of them? Behave. Orks would become the most broken book overnight with those point reductions AND if almost everything got better armour saves.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A ton of marine players with 3+ armour save models keep telling me it doesn't help them any though....
Why does being a character mean that a Weirdboy and Painboy should have a 3+ save btw? Crypteks have 4+ saves and they are literally made of metal....
You'll notice in my post that you quoted I answered this question for you. They have worse saves than Nobs, which makes no sense. The same for Deffkilla Wartrikes. That are the character equivalent of buggies. Oh and of course most of all it would help make the vast amount of units in our codex that are garbage actually semi-viable. Your claim these changes make the book broken are laughable.
only things I agree with are Killa Kans getting traits, Gorkanaut getting cheaper and Stompa getting cheaper (but not by 200 points lmao)
I don't really care what you think. Please enlighten me as to what price you think a Stomps needs to be to see competitive play though, I could do with a laugh.
I guess the fact you don't care what other people think is part of your problem here, but I digress....
Let me again refer to Crypteks (although there are many examples in the game) as they are no smaller than a Necron Immortal, so by your logic it makes no sense that they have worse saves. Maybe that's actually true by the way - but your logic is flawed. A Weirdboy is not a Nob, that's why it doesn't have the same stats as one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 09:15:41
JNAProductions wrote: So, how would you change the Weirdboy and Painboy models? Because they ain't 3+ models.
What does this even mean? Is this something to do with you reading fluff where a single spacemarine kills an entire waaaagh? They absolutely should have and need (for the health of the faction in a competitive sense) better saves.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
The last thing we need is more randomness. It doesn't help when you're trying to balance an army for competitive play. Despite their lack of armour they are also portrayed as one of if not the hardiest species in existence. You know, they fight even when beheaded, they laugh at lasgun shots and (this is the important bit) they are lethal even when considered 'dead' by human standards. That isn't represented anywhere. An armour save is not just representative of how much literal armour they have, it represents their durability. You'll notice I've suggested better saves on characters (that should be tougher according to fluff anyways, the longer an Ork lives, the hardier he becomes) and a very few units because they are currently underperforming without them.
I can't see a possible reason why a drugged up elf fighter, or a Geiger rip off alien that lives all of one invasion has an invulnerable save in melee but a warboss, the toughest of a tough race who has been through countless cqc engagements does not. It makes no sense and it makes them a problem because anything you want them to hit they have to hit first or die. But you guys aren't interested in balance. You want Orks to remain an NPC faction.
I guess the fact you don't care what other people think is part of your problem here, but I digress....
Let me again refer to Crypteks (although there are many examples in the game) as they are no smaller than a Necron Immortal, so by your logic it makes no sense that they have worse saves. Maybe that's actually true by the way - but your logic is flawed. A Weirdboy is not a Nob, that's why it doesn't have the same stats as one.
Have you seen the stats of a weirdboy compared to a Nob? They are very similar. Forgetting your ramblings about Immortals for a second can you explain two things; one - why you think our codex is powerful when it is evidently weak (about as weak as Necrons as it happens) and two why you think my suggestions would 'break the meta'.
Perhaps if you explained your position rather than just stating it, with no explanation as to why you have it we could have a discussion but unfortunately it seems obvious to me you aren't actually interested in the topic or a discussion around it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 09:45:58
Giving all Ork Characters a 4+ save (unless already better) seems fair to me. Maybe the mini-mek should just be a 5+, I'd be okay with that. I don't think it's crazy wanting a 3+ warboss though, especially considering the MA Warboss is index only now. Give a updated datasheet for that guy and a 4+ warboss is fine IMO.
The weirdboy I'm totally okay with having just a 6+ normal save but his waaagh energy should give him a 5+ invulnerable save IMO. That's just a basic daemonic save and hardly considered game-changing.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
The last thing we need is more randomness. It doesn't help when you're trying to balance an army for competitive play. Despite their lack of armour they are also portrayed as one of if not the hardiest species in existence. You know, they fight even when beheaded, they laugh at lasgun shots and (this is the important bit) they are lethal even when considered 'dead' by human standards. That isn't represented anywhere. An armour save is not just representative of how much literal armour they have, it represents their durability. You'll notice I've suggested better saves on characters (that should be tougher according to fluff anyways, the longer an Ork lives, the hardier he becomes) and a very few units because they are currently underperforming without them.
I can't see a possible reason why a drugged up elf fighter, or a Geiger rip off alien that lives all of one invasion has an invulnerable save in melee but a warboss, the toughest of a tough race who has been through countless cqc engagements does not. It makes no sense and it makes them a problem because anything you want them to hit they have to hit first or die. But you guys aren't interested in balance. You want Orks to remain an NPC faction.
.
Orks have always been a random race/team in 40k, both in fluff and gameplay. No, it doesn't make them tournament powerhouses, but so what?! Is it really so infernally bad to have one single race/team that isnt super competitive from the get-go? I so sorely miss the good ol' days when you didn't know if the SAG would completely just delete a unit with no chance of a saving throw, or if it would teleport the user into the enemy. Or do nothing at all. Or if your Ork crew would press the big red button and send your looted stuff far into the enemy lines by accident.
I do agree on the hardiness and resilience of Orks' bodies, but not enough to grant them a 3+, but a 5+ is viable. And their ability to continue fighting sans head could be "fixed" with the "gets to do an attack on 4+ when it dies", and I do think that could be nice, even if it was a strategy, not an aura granted by some character. And fpr the fact that 'Nids have better saves and such -fluffwise- is probably due to them being created for a single purpose, and adapted to their foe.
That all being said, you can't expect the game to try and represent all fluff in the game. Stuff would be stupidly broken. Just consider that a Space Marine is "worth" one thousand guardsmen and a Custode is "worth" 1000 (or something along those lines) Space Marines. Or the fact that an Ork player would always win if the opponent didn't have flamers or something to purge all the Ork fungus spores.
Gitdakka wrote: Burna boyz are described as dual purpose. Infantry incinerators and can openers in melee. Currently the rules design let them do none of this. (for the points they have less shooty damage than shoota boyz and less mellee than slugga boyz).
That's kind of the point in a dual-purpose unit? You shoot, then you charge?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/04 05:22:12
Burnas should be D6 shots though, and should give ap -2 in melee. Burna boyz should also have a 5+ save, as they tend to me grease monkies. I also wouldn't mind them being able to repair a nearbye ork vehicle D3 wounds on a 4+.
They should of course cost the same as a boy + flamer +3 for the AP in melee.
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I think that the reference to the model is that a space marine is literally encased head to toe in plasteel and ceramite armour, and has a 3+ save. a weirdboy is practically naked (and probably would be if the designers knew what orks had in their crotch, and decency allowed it to be shown), so there's no justification for a 3+ save on the model. Balance-wise, it might help make the unit very good, but it wouldn't reflect the model. and if you don't want to reflect the model, then pick the most balanced army in the game and play as "counts as".
Burna boys, there's no reason for them not to be D6 hits. But, it would make the unit even more expensive.
I would like to see more random bits, EG if there is a mek in the unit, he can make 1 burna fire 2D6 shots instead of D3. if a double is rolled when determining the amount of shots, both the mek and the burna boy are removed after the attack.
little random quirks which make orks the fun army, that's what I want back. basically I would like some of the more unstable inventions to have the "roll a D6, on a 1 it's very bad for you, on a 2-5 it's average, on a 6 it's very bad for the enemy" approach. it was always the orky flavour.
12,300 points of Orks
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some bloke wrote: I think that the reference to the model is that a space marine is literally encased head to toe in plasteel and ceramite armour, and has a 3+ save. a weirdboy is practically naked (and probably would be if the designers knew what orks had in their crotch, and decency allowed it to be shown), so there's no justification for a 3+ save on the model. Balance-wise, it might help make the unit very good, but it wouldn't reflect the model. and if you don't want to reflect the model, then pick the most balanced army in the game and play as "counts as".
Burna boys, there's no reason for them not to be D6 hits. But, it would make the unit even more expensive.
I would like to see more random bits, EG if there is a mek in the unit, he can make 1 burna fire 2D6 shots instead of D3. if a double is rolled when determining the amount of shots, both the mek and the burna boy are removed after the attack.
little random quirks which make orks the fun army, that's what I want back. basically I would like some of the more unstable inventions to have the "roll a D6, on a 1 it's very bad for you, on a 2-5 it's average, on a 6 it's very bad for the enemy" approach. it was always the orky flavour.
I agree there should be some parity between models and their rules representation, hence why I think they can just give the weirdboy a 5+ invulnerable save from his waaagh energy instead. But giving the normal mek and painboy a 4+ or at least a 5+ save instead of their 6+ seems fair.
Random stuff is fun, and I love using Orks for them but GW sometimes (read: often) overestimates their viability. So I'm torn about how much I want GW to lean into that aspect. Stuff like your "overcharged" burna is fun though and I'd love to see more of that. However I think that would get wonky rules-wise if they're both in a transport since neither are then on the table technically and therefore not x amount of inches within each other. So it would have to be worded with that in mind, same as anyone suggesting improving burnas by stratagems. Those stratagems would have to worded to specifically work on embarked burnas otherwise it's just a waste of everyones time.
However I do think the most we can really hope for is just significant point drops on the units/wargear options that are grossly overcosted right now.
For all the discussion around a space marine being encased in ceramite and hence deserving of a 3+ save, can someone please explain to me then why a guardsman who is basically me with a bullet proof jacket has a better save than (again) what is supposed to be one of the hardiest creatures in the known lore?
Its funny how many people lean on the fluff excuse when it suits them but otherwise want the game 'balanced'.
Random, stupid rules are part of the reason Orks have been awful in other editions. They're not 'Orky' they are idiotic and can stay dead. Yes every faction in the game should be viable competitively.
Please do not suggest stratagems as fixes for the Orks' problems. The reasons we are a poor faction is because we over rely on stratagems to make our units effective in a meta that can easily counter them. This only makes us weaker.
The suggestions here are not from a fluff perspective. If we do that Marines will be the most stupidly broken faction ever. The cost of the weird boy and rule of 3 matched play limitation means that they are deserving of a better save (if he want them to be balanced). The same goes for Warbosses getting an invulnerable save in melee, they are not effective units without them and it is why every list we see has one and only one (that itself relies on a relic to be competitive and has to die to be most effective).
Its odd I think that in the main our shooting units must have a 5+ BS while in other factions that are supposed to focus more on shooting we see countless units with a 2+WS. Tau commander anyone? Farsight is arguably a better melee beatstick than many Ork characters.
Finally the whole 'make Orks super cheap' suggestion is not really suitable either. Some of our units are massively overpriced, true, but there are many that would become far too strong if they were priced appropriately because of the nature of the game mechanics.
E-format
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 14:14:40
Orks are T4, Guardsmen are T3. The superhuman durability IS represented in rules.
I think Warbosses with invulnerable saves would be ridiculously easy to justify TBH. After all, 'E'z de most kunningly brutal (or brutally kunning) of the whole lot, no? The Ork Boyz would KNOW he's the biggest, baddest bastard around. That should give him some boons. 4++ save baseline with a special rule called "Da Big Boss" increasing it to a 3++ if your Warbosses is your Warlord?
Agreed entirely on the randomness; it's not fun for the Ork player, and it's not fun for the opponent when insane damage spikes decide a game. I've seen a Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek kill five times it's own cost in one turn, but I've also seen a mate of mine who plays Orks lose his Warlord Big Mek to snakeeyes on turn 1 back in 6th edition in 5 consecutive tournament rounds. Never mind the fact that both are rather unlikely, every now and then outliers happen, and with traditional Ork RNG design such outliers tend to ruin games.
And no, D6 hit Burna Boyz wouldn't need to become more expensive because the entire point of buffing something is to make it BETTER.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Price cuts across the board would be fine, as long as there's something like "Showing Off" and "More Dakka" cannot be used on mobbed up units, or units can only mob up if one is reduced to half strength. The ability to make 400 point units and then apply multiple stratagems to it is a problem, and makes "god units" that do stupid amounts of damage. Lootas and tankbustas should be cheaper so you can have more of them, and less reliant on stratagems to do their damage.
I agree that an ork should be harder to kill than a guardsman. this worked before because the increased toughness of an ork mattered, and most weapons ignored a 5+ save as much as a 6+ save.
stupid random rules can die, but "edgy gamble" rules were the thing that made orks fun. Orks shouldn't be a reliable army, they should be sub par, and you should have to take risks with their rules to make them viable. I think orks rules should have an element of "gambling" for a brilliant result, but only on the special things - shokk attack guns, perhaps this idea with the burnas.
For making it viable in a vehicle, make it worse if they do it in a vehicle - if the burna rolls a double, the mek and D3 burnas are removed from the unit (worded in such a way as to get around the rules technicalities, rules as intended is that the burnas are dead).
if we try and match the fluff perfectly, then this game will become more chaotic than the warp. Almost every bit of fluff in 40k is contradicted by another piece of fluff somewhere else, it's been written and rewritten and overwritten and added to and so on so many times by so many people that yes, it has a recurring theme, but trying to take an accurate idea of how powerful each race is by the fluff is like trying to decide who will win between the ancient greeks and romans based on the legends of their most amazing fighters. Hercules is not a good measure of how strong a human is.
I think that one fix to orks would be to make them cheaper the more you buy. so the first 10 models are 7 points, next 10 are 6 points, next 10 are 5 points. remove any restrictions that say "1 model in each 10 may take" so that small units remain viable.
Orks also, desperately, need a unit called "Trukkboys" which is tuned specifically to riding in a trukk. cheaper models, smaller squad size, special rules to work with trukks.
orks shooting should get better by an increase in quantity, not quality. I think that there should be a higher allowance for big shootas in boys mobs with shootas (easily fixed with the new codex system - have "shoota boys" and "Slugga Boys" as 2 different entries).
Separating shootas and sluggas would allow for rules which more accurately reflect the units wonts - shootas might have a rule of +1 to hit when shooting when there's more than 20 (same as grots), sluggas might have the same rule but for close combat. Then include 'ard boys to give the army some armour saves and you've got a much more flexible core of troops, who aren't paying for rules they won't use. You can keep "mob rule" but simple add that if the unit comprises of models with both of these rules, neither work. that way if sluggas mob up with shootas, they lose their benefits, but if all the shootas then die, the sluggas start working again.
I would also love to see separate wargear lists for the klans. This would take some working out, but, for example, the basics (slugga, choppa, shoota etc) remain the same but snakebites get access to squig weapons, bad moonz get the basics but a little cheaper, deff skulls get some looted wargear from other armies, evil sunz get more options for vehicles, etc. Then add a rule that you can only take units from different klans in the same detachment if you have a "great waaagh" banner bearer, a generic banner bearer who is a points tax for cherry-picking your units (as opposed to laying this tax on a model like ghazzie, who you might want to take without mixing your klans).
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
some bloke wrote: stupid random rules can die, but "edgy gamble" rules were the thing that made orks fun. Orks shouldn't be a reliable army, they should be sub par, and you should have to take risks with their rules to make them viable. I think orks rules should have an element of "gambling" for a brilliant result, but only on the special things - shokk attack guns, perhaps this idea with the burnas.
Absolutely not. Such an army is both frustrating to play and to play against. If you cannot even rely on your own army doing roughly what you tell it to do people will just quit. You should be fighting your opponent's army, not your own special rules.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel or arbitrarily buff t-shirt saves, we just need options for 'eavy armour, mega armour and cybork body on appropriate characters back!
On the subject of an auto hitting anti-tank gun, yea it was called the Zzapp Gun. It had 24" range, auto hit and rolled 2d6 for strength.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 17:41:58
Burnaboys and Kans legitimately make me sad. Really cool looking models (I'd even go as far as to say that burnaboys is the coolest ork infantry kit) ruined by bad rule to the point that I'm having doubts of using them even in casual game.
I've never understood what is the problem with giving all ork specialists like lootas, burnaboys, tankbustas a 5+ save. Helps them out with survivability, synergises nicely Loot it!, and does not result in spamming. If an ork is cunning enough to get teeth for his equipment, surely he'll pad his armor a bit? (or in the case of lootas, his weapon IS the armor since it covers a good portion of his body).
I remember there was a really solid idea by Jidmah or Englishman way before our codex came out of spanners giving buffs to lootas/burnaboys they are included into, like increasing their number of shots.
Burnaboys need to have d6 damage flamer period. I see no reason for it to be much worse than imperial counterparts, their flamers are freaking huge! Also in fluff they cut enemy vehicles apart for mekboys, and this has 0 representation on the table. Something like +1 to wound an enemy vehicle in melee, or rolls of 6 are mortal wounds.
Kans at the very least need access to kultures. Surely, if grot was tough enough to shove aside other gretchins and get attention of mek to become a Kan pilot, it means he has a bit of orkiness in himself?
Doesn't the Snakebite warlord trait already help the kans with morale? That's how I have been playing it as they have the <Snakebite> and <Gretchin> keywords.
I would prefer they were improved with better stats or cheaper points rather than adding more re-rolls and FnP which slows down the game...
Kroem wrote: Doesn't the Snakebite warlord trait already help the kans with morale? That's how I have been playing it as they have the <Snakebite> and <Gretchin> keywords.
I would prefer they were improved with better stats or cheaper points rather than adding more re-rolls and FnP which slows down the game...
As far as I know, you can. But it's still not anywhere near worth it IMO. Like their damage isn't enough in either shooting or CC and they're too slow to get into CC anyways. Removing morale actually makes them pretty durable per point but that's still not worth it IMO.
Giving them kulturs and the "psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the stompa would make them viable. The most probably change is still just a 5-point drop or something.
Kall3m0n wrote: It's like you all have forgotten what orks are. THey are not green spacemarines! 3+ armour on orks is extremely rare, and it should be. Orks are meant to die to even a stern look. That's their thing! Their thing is hordes and droves of sub par crap. Quantity over quality! Agreed that maybe some characters should have 4+ or 3+,and MAYBE one or two could have a 4++ in CC. What I do agree on is the point drops. Though orks are damn shooty and pretty killy now. And with "Da jump" you can even reliably warp them around. My biggest problem with modern orks is the lack of randomness. I remember the glory days of the SAG and the "Don't press dat" rule. Bring back ork randomness!!!
Except hordes is boring as all hell to play, i think every ork player who played competitively in 8th during our index would agree. Requiring an army to field 250-300 models is boring, irritating and slow. And your "Quantity over Quality" is true except our crap units are over priced, take a look at all of our brand new Buggies. Almost every one of them is anywhere from 20-25% over priced, We pay almost as much for a Squig Buggy as Guard pay for a Leman Russ. A Squigbuggy is 140pts a Leman russ is 152. Which would you rather have in your army? Ohh, and keep in mind, most IG players think Leman Russ tanks aren't that good. For a fun comparison, a Leman russ is T8, 12 wounds with a 3+ save and 12' movement as well as a built in ability to fire its main weapon twice...which I have never seen them not do. The Squig Buggy is T6 with 9 wounds and a 4+ save is 2' slower and its weapons are mostly crap.
I used to love the randomness of the faction but my biggest problem was that the random charts did not scale well. Remember the old SAG rules? Double 1s, you die. Double 2s you shoot your own army and your opponent chooses what, Double 3s you miss and hit the next closest unit, Double 4s use the small blast template at lower strength, Double 5s you are fired at he enemy and now engaged in close combat with your target, Roll a 5 and a 6 and you hit your target (yay) but only what was directly under the center dot of the template and only at S10. And finally Double 6s....you create a D Template and everything underneath is killed.....SO 1 good result and 6 results that are either terrible or sub par....not to mention if you rolled a 1 and a 2, a 1 and a 3 a 1 and a 4, a 2 and a 3 or a 1 and a 5 you were basically wasting your time as most vehicles would simply be to armored to be killed ( you might get a glance on AV12). So the likelihood that your weapon would be bad was SIGNIFICANTLY more likely then your weapon doing its assigned job.
As for "Don't Press Dat" What was the benefit? There wasn't one. it was literally a mechanic built into the game to nerf looted vehicles.
Horst wrote: Price cuts across the board would be fine, as long as there's something like "Showing Off" and "More Dakka" cannot be used on mobbed up units, or units can only mob up if one is reduced to half strength. The ability to make 400 point units and then apply multiple stratagems to it is a problem, and makes "god units" that do stupid amounts of damage. Lootas and tankbustas should be cheaper so you can have more of them, and less reliant on stratagems to do their damage.
A 400pt unit that has 1 purpose, is heavily over priced and relies exclusively on not 1, not 2, not 3 but 4 stratagems, 3 of which are used every turn. Mob up (used once), Dakka on 5s, shoot twice and Grot Shields. Ohh and you need 150-180pts of grots to shield them or they die turn 1. Also, if you think that is a "God Unit" I need to show you the Imperial Soup lists, a Castellan costs about the same and is better in basically every way imaginable.
I do agree with you though that Tankbustas and Lootas need to be significantly cheaper and rely a lot less on stratagems to be useful...except tankbustas aren't really even using stratagems as they are always in a vehicle or they die the following turn to anything the enemy has.
Personally, a lot of the codex seems weak and rather lackluster, there was a rumor floating about that the codex had to be rewritten because it was OP across the board and resulted in games ending turn1.......I don't see that at all. I mean, literally nothing in that codex gives me that feeling. Unless Mek Gunz were 50% cheaper in the 1st codex and gained stratagems/klan rules and that most of our units were significantly cheaper. Like stormboyz being able to deepstrike sounds cool but they are so over priced and underwhelming that I can't see that as a useful strategy unless they were able to do that turn 1 and somehow got around the 50% reserve rules.
I really want to see some sweeping price cuts for the ork codex but I fear we are going to have to wait for the next big change which isn't for another 6 months or so.
I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.
My personal list.
HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. Fpr Orks os specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!
-Ghazzy should be around 200pts with current rules.
-Big Meks have me puzzled. I would like them to be something more than a platform for the shock or the KFF. The big mekaniak doesn't cut it.
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.
- Deffkilla needs S6 base and more weapon options.
- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.
- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.
- a runt herd per grot squad should be free.
- burnas need a 5+save and 1d6 flamer and a new rule for pyromaniak. My proposal would be to allow them to shoot with a second profile 1d3 f5 -1 range 12" (imagine a twist of a nozzle to concenrrate the "fire").
- tankbustas and lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save
- nobs are mostly ok. I would give 1 gretching free per 5 instead of charging 4pts.
- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?
- nobs in warbikes are waaay too expensive. With multiple damage weapons they will never be as resilient as they used to be. Therefore, take a nob price (14) and add a bike (approx 13pts) and there you go. 27pts a nob before additional equipment.
- bikes down to 19-20. Or give them the billowing cloud rule back. Maybe instead of -1 to hit as the strat, give them a +1 armour if moved to get them closer to every other bike in the game (as 3+ save). Apply to biker nobs as well.
- reduce 20% buggies pts. The squigbuggy however needs a rule rewrite. It will not work even if the cost is halved.
- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.
- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.
- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.
- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.
- mek shop. If a mek is within 3" the mek can use the workshop to customize a unit within 3". If so, apply as today's iteration but not forgoing any action as currently. If it is used by a mek, the upgrades are obtained with a 4+ instead of a 6+. If by a big mek, upgrades at 2+. If a 1 is rolled, the model suffers d3 mortal wounds as the "repair" has been a disaster.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.
Agreed on most of the mentioned stuff. Maybe painboys could be less abusable if you could pick an infantry/bike unit within 6" and that unit gains a 5+++?
