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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




How the hell do we fix orkz to make them more competitive and to make more units worth taking?

I mean the obvious answer is a massive price reduction on a number of units, the BoneCrusha is really good, it just needs a bit of a discount, same thing with most of the new Ork Buggies, they are good but too expensive to even think about taking. The Megatrakk scrapjet as an example is about 15-20pts over priced and is wicked nice to play/field.

Burna's are the exact opposite.....I can't think of a single way to make them worth taking beyond a massive change to their stats. A D3 flamer is crap, especially with an 8' range. Add in the price of the model and the fact that its literally just a boy model with a flamer and there is simply no way. Burna boyz are 12pts right now, that means that they are 7pt boyz with a 5pt flamer upgrade, a SM Flamer is 6pts and does D6 shots and is considered to be crap and not worth taking. now of course the Burna has -2 AP in CC as well but that isn't that big of a buff on a model that again is just a boy that is drastically over priced. Another Big issue that is probably the reason Orkz can't take Burna's is that they are 12pts but only have a 6+ save, so they can't deepstrike because they will be out of range of their flamers, they can't walk up the field because they cost almost twice as much as a boy and are just as fragile so they are over priced AND they require a transport to do anything which further ups their cost. I think maybe giving Burna Boyz a price INCREASE to 13 or even 14ppm and than giving them a 3+ save might make them usable, or conversely giving them a 1-2pt price drop AND giving them a 4+ save might help.

If anyone else has any solutions for other ork units or think another unit should be discussed in depth let me know.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in se
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




Sweden

Burna boyz are described as dual purpose. Infantry incinerators and can openers in melee. Currently the rules design let them do none of this. (for the points they have less shooty damage than shoota boyz and less mellee than slugga boyz). What they should have is flamer d6 or just flamer 3. Then they should also have something like s7 - 2ap d2 in melee to be able to hurt tanks.

For the rest of the army we need more ROF on the at weapons. For example make rokkits assult 3 .this would make units like killa kans and dakka deff dredds more interesting. This would also coubter that everything and their mother has a 3+ inv. Also big shootas should be like assult 6.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Burna boys have weaker flamers due to their ability to field more models. They are overpriced, though, and as their flamer is as big as a guardsman, it's a bit pathetic that they are only D3 shots!

It's worth remembering that units pay for their potential combos - if marines could have 12 flamer models in a fast, open-topped transport (advance + shoot, as they are assault and auto hit anyway) then people would be making a lot more marines with flamers.

the ability of a unit of burna boys to hurt a unit of generic elite infantry (EG marines) in CC is quite good too. just don't go for anything with an invuln or high toughness.

I do agree that the buggies are overpriced, and I hate their lack of options (should be one profile which can build all the buggies and any combination thereof, IMHO) but that's a different discussion.

rokkits being D3 shots? bit much, especially as they are quite a long weapon to reload, they shouldn't have a higher ROF than a bolter! what they should have is access to more of them - maybe even swap out rokkits on walkers for one shot weapons, as they lack the dexterity to reload a rokkit (gently grab another explosive and push it onto the end of a stick, with giant shears of death. not happening.), then they can fire them all at once or pace then throughout the game. perhaps have a "on a roll of a 1 for each additional rokkit fired, this model takes a mortal wound and the rokkit doesn't fire", to discourage people a bit (and for gaks sake, make orks more random!).

This would increase a one-turn damage potential but not make rokkits the most powerful gun in the ork codex!


Orks in 8th, W/D/L
9/0/3 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);

Grots - leave as is.

Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.

Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?

Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.

SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.

Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.

Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.

Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.

Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.

New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.

Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.

Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.

Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.

Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.

Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.

Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.

Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.

Lootas - give them a 4+ save.

Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.

Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.

Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.

Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.

Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.

I'll comment more once I have chance.
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Spoiler:
My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);

Grots - leave as is.

Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.

Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?

Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.

SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.

Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.

Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.

Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.

Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.

New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.

Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.

Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.

Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.

Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.

Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.

Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.

Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.

Lootas - give them a 4+ save.

Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.

Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.

Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.

Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.

Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.

I'll comment more once I have chance.

I will say that I agree with most of these. Giving Killa Kanz access to kulturs and giving them the "Psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the Stompa datasheet would make them viable (and really orky)

I really want them to make all the planes keyword Speed Freeks, it's not a big deal rules-wise but I hate the fact that they're not.

Make spanners cheaper by not having them pay for a rokkit launcha/deff gun they're not using. Just have a separate point cost for them at like 10ppm.

Change the "Billowing smoke cloud" strat to work in any movement phase.

Make burna boyz either 8 points or give them full wound rerolls at 10ppm.

Do you mean that the deffkoptas would cost 30ppm including the rack of rokkits? I personally don't think the deffkilla wartrike needs both the point reduction and the stat buff you've given him, either is fine. I actually like that tankbustas/ lootas are only a 6+ save, just make them cheaper. They're a super glass cannon which is fine as long as they're not overcosted (which they are ATM)

A lot of things in the codex need big point drops, especially seeing how most armies got their points slashed in CA 2018 (my admech force dropped like 325 points IIRC). There are so many things I want to change the datasheets for but I realise that's pretty unlikely. I personally made a list of point changes I wanted to see implemented for Orkz about a month after CA (with a long text explaining my reasoning) that I sent in to GW. I'm not sure how much that will end up doing but I suggest everyone sends in something to highlight the concerns we're having.

My has since slightly changed but here it is:

Spoiler:
Points units:
Burna boyz - 8
Nobz on warbikes - 26
Painboy - 45
Boomdakka snazzwagon - 75
Kustom boosta-blasta - 80
Rukkatrukk squigbuggies - 90
Shokkjump dragstas - 80
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 84
Warbikers - 18
Deffkoptas - 25
Gunwagon - 120
Killa kanz - 35
Flash Gitz - 25
Lootas - 15
Trukk - 53
Mekboy workshop - 40
Stompa - 600

Points ranged weapons:
Big shoota - 2
Twin big shoota - 4
Supa shoota - 6
Rokkit launcha - 10
Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha - 10
Twin rokkit launcha - 20
Kopta rokkits - 20
Grotzooka - 5
Lobba - 10
Kannon - 10
Zzap gun - 10
Stikkbomb chukka - 2
Bubblechukka - 20
Kustom mega-blasta - 7
Kustom mega-slugga - 5
Shokk Attack Gun - 20
Tellyport blasta - 8
Tellyport mega-blasta - 12
Skorcha - 14
Kombi-weapon with skorcha - 15

Points melee weapons:
Power klaw - 10
Killsaw - 12 (Pair - 18)
Tankhammer - 3
Dread Klaw - 10
Dread Saw - 5

Points other wargear:
Cybork body - 1


   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






PiñaColada wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Spoiler:
My humble suggestions as follows based on what I think is semi realistic (excluding named characters);

Grots - leave as is.

Boyz - back down to 6ppm. There are countless troops that now out perform boyz.

Painboyz, Weirdboyz - give both a 3+ save. They're characters FFS. How do they have a worse save than Nobs?

Banner nob - price cut of 10 pts, give 3+ save.

SAG/KFF Mega Mek - points drop. Approx 15 pts for SAG and 30 pts for KFF Mega Mek.

Warboss/MA Warboss - 3+, 4++ in melee combat. Reasoning is that storm shields are now pennies.

Deffkilla wartrike - price cut of 20pts to make him a round 100. Make base strength 6 like all other bosses. Give 4++ in melee combat. 3+ base save.

Nobz - give them a 3+ save or cut their cost by about 3 ppm.

Tankbustas/Burna Boys - give them a 4+ save. 17 pts for a 6+ is a joke. Make burnas throughout the codex d6 auto hits.

New buggies - massive price cuts. KBB and BDSW should be 65-70 pts. MTSJ should be 75-80 pts. SJD should be 85-90 pts and RTSB should be 95 pts tops. If unwilling to change price they need a durability boost - all should have a -1 to hit modifier and a 6+++.

Warbikers - bring their cost down to 16-18ppm in line with every other bike in the game following CA.

Nob Bikers - bring their cost down to 22 ppm.

Deffkopta - give rokkit versions built in, non index big bombs.

Storm boyz - leave as is, they're decent.

Mork/Gorkanaut - reduce points around 30 pts each.

Killa kans - give access to clan traits. Allow some sort of morale mitigation. Allow their weapons to fire more than once.

Deffdreads - give a 5++ inbuilt and reduce the cost of the klaw load out.

Lootas - give them a 4+ save.

Flash Gits - give them a 3+ save.

Dakka jet - make +1 to hit flyer stratagem a constant ability.

Other flyers - reduce points cost approx 20 each. Change the burna and big bombs so they actually do something of value.

Stompa - 200 pts reduction. In built 5++.

Mek workshop - ability triggers if a Mek forgoes his actions, not the vehicle. Cannot use same ability twice in a row.

I'll comment more once I have chance.

I will say that I agree with most of these. Giving Killa Kanz access to kulturs and giving them the "Psycho-dakka-blasta" rule from the Stompa datasheet would make them viable (and really orky)

I really want them to make all the planes keyword Speed Freeks, it's not a big deal rules-wise but I hate the fact that they're not.

Make spanners cheaper by not having them pay for a rokkit launcha/deff gun they're not using. Just have a separate point cost for them at like 10ppm.

Change the "Billowing smoke cloud" strat to work in any movement phase.

Make burna boyz either 8 points or give them full wound rerolls at 10ppm.

Do you mean that the deffkoptas would cost 30ppm including the rack of rokkits? I personally don't think the deffkilla wartrike needs both the point reduction and the stat buff you've given him, either is fine. I actually like that tankbustas/ lootas are only a 6+ save, just make them cheaper. They're a super glass cannon which is fine as long as they're not overcosted (which they are ATM)

A lot of things in the codex need big point drops, especially seeing how most armies got their points slashed in CA 2018 (my admech force dropped like 325 points IIRC). There are so many things I want to change the datasheets for but I realise that's pretty unlikely. I personally made a list of point changes I wanted to see implemented for Orkz about a month after CA (with a long text explaining my reasoning) that I sent in to GW. I'm not sure how much that will end up doing but I suggest everyone sends in something to highlight the concerns we're having.

My has since slightly changed but here it is:

Spoiler:
Points units:
Burna boyz - 8
Nobz on warbikes - 26
Painboy - 45
Boomdakka snazzwagon - 75
Kustom boosta-blasta - 80
Rukkatrukk squigbuggies - 90
Shokkjump dragstas - 80
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 84
Warbikers - 18
Deffkoptas - 25
Gunwagon - 120
Killa kanz - 35
Flash Gitz - 25
Lootas - 15
Trukk - 53
Mekboy workshop - 40
Stompa - 600

Points ranged weapons:
Big shoota - 2
Twin big shoota - 4
Supa shoota - 6
Rokkit launcha - 10
Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha - 10
Twin rokkit launcha - 20
Kopta rokkits - 20
Grotzooka - 5
Lobba - 10
Kannon - 10
Zzap gun - 10
Stikkbomb chukka - 2
Bubblechukka - 20
Kustom mega-blasta - 7
Kustom mega-slugga - 5
Shokk Attack Gun - 20
Tellyport blasta - 8
Tellyport mega-blasta - 12
Skorcha - 14
Kombi-weapon with skorcha - 15

Points melee weapons:
Power klaw - 10
Killsaw - 12 (Pair - 18)
Tankhammer - 3
Dread Klaw - 10
Dread Saw - 5

Points other wargear:
Cybork body - 1



Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.

Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.

No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.

Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Sure, I could probably send that tonight after work. I can't really access my personal mail from here, but I'll try and remember to fix it later.

I really hate that planes aren't speed freeks, it'd almost be a bad thing if they were for ES players like you and I since their minimum move would be 22" then I guess. But using the drive-by krumpin' strat on a plane (maybe even allowing them to drop both bombs in T1?) would be hilarious.

Billowing smoke cloud only costs 1CP where most reactive stratagems costs 2Cp, so just having it in any movement phase for 1CP seems fair.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Further fixes;

Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.

Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!




Orks in 8th, W/D/L
9/0/3 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Not much chat here. Do no other Ork players have an opinion on what points costs should be amended and to what?
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.

Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.

No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.

Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.

Okay, so I've attached my reasoning for the points adjustments in the spoiler below. Some of it might be a bit dated, don't remember exactly what I wrote. I also had a bit about IK and possible solutions for them in there but I snipped that out since it wasn't relevant. I also cut out the point suggestions I've already put into the thread (although they have been slightly adjusted) and the pleasantries in the end, but this is the reasoning I included behind some of the bigger changes. It's sort of difficult choosing what to write as this could easily have been three time the amount of text but that might just look daunting.

Spoiler:
Hello,

I purchased Chapter approved (and vigilus defiant) when they were released just a couple of weeks ago and overall I’m really happy with the content in them. One of my main armies, Admech, were improved enough that I really believe they might become tournament viable now. So I’m certainly happy with those changes. I have two other armies that went untouched though, Imperial Knights & Orks. From what I understand then there wasn’t enough time to adjust IK and there obviously wasn’t in the case of Orks.

Orks in my opinion have quite a few changes that should be made now that Chapter approved has adjusted points in general. Overall as an army Orks are certainly fairly viable and most of the adjustments I suggest below are not meant to change up the way the army is played, rather these are just just the minor tweaks I believe should be implemented after playing with the codex and also to some degree after playing armies buffed by CA 2018. I waited until I had managed to play a few games against those armies buffed by CA 2018 as I didn’t want to rush into assumptions. I feel like the changes I suggest below are fair, grounded in reality & match what other armies got. I realise that actual datasheet tweaks are far less likely to happen rather than point changes so most of the things I suggest are related to point values instead. I’ll try to argue why I think some of these changes should be made in a couple of paragraphs followed by a list of point changes and a summary of datasheet changes.

As someone who plays speed freeks I’m extremely happy with the new buggy models but I do think that all of them are overcosted by somewhere between 20 all the way up to 50 points. The Kustom boosta-blasta and the Megatrakk scrapjet are both essentially fine when it comes to points since they’re dual purpose (with both anti-chaff & anti-tank weapons), although I still think a 20 point or so decrease is warranted considering they still fold like paper to actual anti-tank weaponry. The Boomdakka snazzwagon is pretty much the same as a Kustom boosta-blasta although significantly less effective against any sort of target, the durability buff from being -1 to hit is nice but it being the least threatening buggy means it’s unlikely to be targeted anyways. So in my opinion it should cost roughly 5-10 points less than the KBB, another solution might be raising the Mek Speshul to S6 which would help against chaff quite a bit, it’s also a shame that the grot tied to the front isn’t represented by the rules at all. Having him count as a one-time use “Ramshackle” save would be quite fun. The Shokkjump dragsta is an amazing model but it’s still not all that effective against T8 models such as IK or leman russes, considering how hyper specialised it is with just 3 shots I firmly believe that the kustom shokk rifles should be raised to S9, however if we assume it gets no datasheet changes a point drop of roughly 30 points is probably warranted considering how easily it fluffs all it's shots against high toughness targets and how exposed it then has become due to its short ranged guns. The Rukkatrukk squigbuggy is just nowhere near effective enough to be worth 140 points. Placing down the mine, basically a smite, is quite useful but the rest of the weaponry fails to impress. I’d slash its price down to 90-100 points. It's fun, but right now its relegated to that role just because of how ineffective those guns are at their price point.

The warbikes should drop down to 19 points for parity with other codices and how much their bikes dropped, and the Nobz on warbikes just don’t feel worth 38 points per model in my opinion considering you’ll want to equip them with weaponry easily pushing them to 50 points per model. They'd be an option worth considering at a 10 point cut per model. Burna boyz are in a strange spot since they’re worse off at killing infantry than normal boyz because of dakkadakkadakka which means shoota boyz will always get some hits in. I realise that d6 flamer shots per model might get crazy considering open-topped vehicles so I’m suggesting a 2 point drop per model and that they get to reroll wounds natively.

Considering the Heavy stubber dropped to 2 points for BS3+ armies I think the big shoota, a slightly better weapon fired by far worse shots, should follow suit. The Power Klaw, a weapon identical to the power fist, should drop to 10 points in my opinion. Astra militarum get it for 8 being weaker than space marines, who pay 9 for it now. A nob is stronger than them and as such pay 1 additional point. The same goes with Killsaws, since the chainfist dropped to 11 a killsaw should be 12 I think (18 for the pair)

To sort of summarize what I feel like the problems Orks have currently are in a lot of ways tied to durability. The durability of the army is alright assuming you only bring one type of thing. Meaning either a swarm of boyz and other footsloggers or basically only vehicles. Any attempt to strray from those builds means that your opponent will always have viable targets for their specialised weaponry and the durability of Orks becomes terrible. This is a very fixable problem I think and mostly just reflects how overcosted a lot of the options the army currently have are. In your attempt of balance I believe you might have reigned in the capabilities of Orks just a little bit too much because right now the army doesn't feel like it has the offensive output to cover the problems it has with defence.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
Further fixes;

Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.

Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!

I'm super down with the 1/2 slot grots! I have suggested that in the past, it's insane they take up the same space as a Nob.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/19 07:49:45


 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Nice commentary Pina. Well reasoned and written thoughts there.

How could anyone at GW HQ not think those changes are a good idea, when you have presented them so well?!
   
Made in de
Gangly Grot Rebel




Nickin' 'ur stuff

I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Waaaghbert wrote:
I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(

Yea I'm with you there buddy. A simple disembark after moving stray would've helped. But it doesn't get round the fact that you always want more boyz in a squad.
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




An Actual Englishman wrote:Nice commentary Pina. Well reasoned and written thoughts there.

How could anyone at GW HQ not think those changes are a good idea, when you have presented them so well?!

Thanks buddy, I really hope we get enough people writing to GW so they understand that we do need point adjustments, hopefully in the march FAQ and not CA 2019.

Waaaghbert wrote:I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(

Boyz in trukks should get the ability to disembark after moving the trukk but risk taking casualties on the roll of a 1 (same as if the transport blew up) IMO. Probably just restrict it to boyz and not Nobz/MANZ, but if they get that then the T1 charging capabilities would offset the downside of not being 20+ boyz. It'd make them pretty interesting.

Or at the very least make the assault ramps give the trukk a 6" disembark move instead of 3"
   
Made in ru
Regular Dakkanaut





Waaaghbert wrote:
I'm rather new to Orkz, but I'd love Trukkboyz to be somehow viable. I think in some other forum someone suggested to give them bonus attacks in the turn they dissembarked or something like that.
I dont think Truckboyz can be fixed with simple point adjustments :(

For trukboyz to become viable this edition we need a lone PK to become viable. I'd say that PK needs to go up in price, but become a lot more krumpy, like dropping a -1 to hit or getting a d6 damage, or zog it, both.

Kanz need a lot of love. Morale mitigation is a must, as not only the unit is not-so-much-worth it because of lackluster shooting, but also because it suffers way too much in terms of morale. Allow them benefit from stratagems, kultures, some way to shoot twice, maybe get some sort of a melee buff when near a deffdread or *naught.

I would love to see some spice for burnas. D6 damage is a must. +1 to wound vs vehicles/monsters would be spicy and fluffy. Armor save of 4+ or 5+. Lorewise burnaboys cut tanks apart for meks, wouldn't they snag some plates for themselves? Besides they do look tougher compared to normal boys. Pyromaniacs is just meh.

Careful with slapping 3+ on all the units, as we have a stratagem of improving an army save by +1. Nobs in a truk could easily turn into terminators then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/19 12:18:21


 
   
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Luton, England

PiñaColada wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Good shout on Spanners, Killa Kans and speed freak planes. It makes no sense they aren’t speed freeks since they’re the fastest units we own.

Billowing exhaust cloud should work when the unit is targeted for a shooting attack exactly like LFR. It’s the same damn stratagem with greater limitations.

No, happy to keep Koptas roughly their cost but they need the index bomms back officially.

Can you provide your text that you sent to rationale the changes requested? Be interesting to get another players’ take.

Okay, so I've attached my reasoning for the points adjustments in the spoiler below. Some of it might be a bit dated, don't remember exactly what I wrote. I also had a bit about IK and possible solutions for them in there but I snipped that out since it wasn't relevant. I also cut out the point suggestions I've already put into the thread (although they have been slightly adjusted) and the pleasantries in the end, but this is the reasoning I included behind some of the bigger changes. It's sort of difficult choosing what to write as this could easily have been three time the amount of text but that might just look daunting.

Spoiler:
Hello,

I purchased Chapter approved (and vigilus defiant) when they were released just a couple of weeks ago and overall I’m really happy with the content in them. One of my main armies, Admech, were improved enough that I really believe they might become tournament viable now. So I’m certainly happy with those changes. I have two other armies that went untouched though, Imperial Knights & Orks. From what I understand then there wasn’t enough time to adjust IK and there obviously wasn’t in the case of Orks.

Orks in my opinion have quite a few changes that should be made now that Chapter approved has adjusted points in general. Overall as an army Orks are certainly fairly viable and most of the adjustments I suggest below are not meant to change up the way the army is played, rather these are just just the minor tweaks I believe should be implemented after playing with the codex and also to some degree after playing armies buffed by CA 2018. I waited until I had managed to play a few games against those armies buffed by CA 2018 as I didn’t want to rush into assumptions. I feel like the changes I suggest below are fair, grounded in reality & match what other armies got. I realise that actual datasheet tweaks are far less likely to happen rather than point changes so most of the things I suggest are related to point values instead. I’ll try to argue why I think some of these changes should be made in a couple of paragraphs followed by a list of point changes and a summary of datasheet changes.

As someone who plays speed freeks I’m extremely happy with the new buggy models but I do think that all of them are overcosted by somewhere between 20 all the way up to 50 points. The Kustom boosta-blasta and the Megatrakk scrapjet are both essentially fine when it comes to points since they’re dual purpose (with both anti-chaff & anti-tank weapons), although I still think a 20 point or so decrease is warranted considering they still fold like paper to actual anti-tank weaponry. The Boomdakka snazzwagon is pretty much the same as a Kustom boosta-blasta although significantly less effective against any sort of target, the durability buff from being -1 to hit is nice but it being the least threatening buggy means it’s unlikely to be targeted anyways. So in my opinion it should cost roughly 5-10 points less than the KBB, another solution might be raising the Mek Speshul to S6 which would help against chaff quite a bit, it’s also a shame that the grot tied to the front isn’t represented by the rules at all. Having him count as a one-time use “Ramshackle” save would be quite fun. The Shokkjump dragsta is an amazing model but it’s still not all that effective against T8 models such as IK or leman russes, considering how hyper specialised it is with just 3 shots I firmly believe that the kustom shokk rifles should be raised to S9, however if we assume it gets no datasheet changes a point drop of roughly 30 points is probably warranted considering how easily it fluffs all it's shots against high toughness targets and how exposed it then has become due to its short ranged guns. The Rukkatrukk squigbuggy is just nowhere near effective enough to be worth 140 points. Placing down the mine, basically a smite, is quite useful but the rest of the weaponry fails to impress. I’d slash its price down to 90-100 points. It's fun, but right now its relegated to that role just because of how ineffective those guns are at their price point.

The warbikes should drop down to 19 points for parity with other codices and how much their bikes dropped, and the Nobz on warbikes just don’t feel worth 38 points per model in my opinion considering you’ll want to equip them with weaponry easily pushing them to 50 points per model. They'd be an option worth considering at a 10 point cut per model. Burna boyz are in a strange spot since they’re worse off at killing infantry than normal boyz because of dakkadakkadakka which means shoota boyz will always get some hits in. I realise that d6 flamer shots per model might get crazy considering open-topped vehicles so I’m suggesting a 2 point drop per model and that they get to reroll wounds natively.

Considering the Heavy stubber dropped to 2 points for BS3+ armies I think the big shoota, a slightly better weapon fired by far worse shots, should follow suit. The Power Klaw, a weapon identical to the power fist, should drop to 10 points in my opinion. Astra militarum get it for 8 being weaker than space marines, who pay 9 for it now. A nob is stronger than them and as such pay 1 additional point. The same goes with Killsaws, since the chainfist dropped to 11 a killsaw should be 12 I think (18 for the pair)

To sort of summarize what I feel like the problems Orks have currently are in a lot of ways tied to durability. The durability of the army is alright assuming you only bring one type of thing. Meaning either a swarm of boyz and other footsloggers or basically only vehicles. Any attempt to strray from those builds means that your opponent will always have viable targets for their specialised weaponry and the durability of Orks becomes terrible. This is a very fixable problem I think and mostly just reflects how overcosted a lot of the options the army currently have are. In your attempt of balance I believe you might have reigned in the capabilities of Orks just a little bit too much because right now the army doesn't feel like it has the offensive output to cover the problems it has with defence.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
Further fixes;

Bring back big meks - they don't have to have mega armour, mega armour is for getting stuck in - big meks want to fix things and see it working - it's hard to fix stuff in a restrictive suit of mega armour. it will also let us pay less points for a kustom force field.

Make grots take up 1/2 a slot in a transport. battlewagons full of grots!

I'm super down with the 1/2 slot grots! I have suggested that in the past, it's insane they take up the same space as a Nob.


I no longer play orks (sold them in 6th) but still like to follow information and threads on them.

Just like to say what a well reasoned and written piece of constructive feedback that is. I feel things like that are much more likely to get the attention of GW than the usual wish lists. Things like giving a load of ork units a 3+ save or invulnerables are just not going to happen where as a few well reasoned price drops are far more likely.

Speaking as someone who plays against orks alot (I sold my old force to a friend) I think the new codex seems pretty powerful, loads of useful stratagems and some excellent units. Very hard to play the mission against due to the amount of bodies they can field. As with all armies there are units that just don't perform at their points value so asking for some minor adjustments seems a good way to go.

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Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Isn't one of the main problems with pricing for orks the Tellyporta stratagem?


Edit: what i want to say is, that it is that powerfull that a lot of necessary pricedrops /rule adaptions don't happen.

In essence you can compare it with how Abbadon singlehandedly keeps the price for CSM equipment up and bobby g doing the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/19 13:36:23


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10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
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Nickin' 'ur stuff

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't one of the main problems with pricing for orks the Tellyporta stratagem?


Edit: what i want to say is, that it is that powerfull that a lot of necessary pricedrops /rule adaptions don't happen.

In essence you can compare it with how Abbadon singlehandedly keeps the price for CSM equipment up and bobby g doing the same.


Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport?
It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.

So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
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Revered Rogue Psyker





Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport?
It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.

So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?


Yes and no, most are factions specific, as in subfaction specific.
CSM and SM lost their Infiltration abilitiy.
SW,DA, i belive don't have one.
GK has it priced into their troops, which suck soooooo.

CSM for exemple only got Tide of traitors now, after the nerf for the AL stratagem.Tide got nerfed as well as have Cultists themselves.

AM also only has it on a subfaction, with a bad trait and it beeing 3 CP.And only once up to 3 units.

That's not to say it isn't common, i feel like half the armies have something comparable as a stratagem, but most of these have it bound by subfactions/ specific units types and or restricted to one use, which generally aren't good, or less "problematic" in GW's eyes. (Aren't good anymore cough SM/CSM)

It generally also is deemed for GW anyways an unfun way to play because it leads to turn 1 melee supposedly, one of the issues they took with said stratagems before they got nerfed into oblivion.

I think in their minds that justifies alot of the higher prices on units like Boyz /Boyzlike units like lootas, burnaboyz especially i feel are a victim of this.

I don't say i find this approach good, but in a melee faction and with the Statement of GW that they didn't like T1 melee because it is "uninteractive" it would make sense to severly limit it out of their view.

Then again GW has a history of overvaluing Melee prowess and SV.

My opinion would've been, if these stratagems are such problem childs, why even implement them and not replace them to something closer to what they deem balanced.

I would've cut it and personally made Trukkz and contents of it cheap enough that it would've been playable.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/19 15:18:41


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_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

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Made in gb
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Hm, I get your point but doesn't almost every army have some way to infiltrate/teleport?
It's been ages since I played, but as far as I know, AdMech have Stygies (and another one?), Eldar have all sorts of warpway shenanigans, demons and Greyknights as well. Tau have Manta Strike etc etc.

So since almost every faction can do this it would be strange to price orks according to this strategeme or am I missing something?


Yes and no, most are factions specific, as in subfaction specific.
CSM and SM lost their Infiltration abilitiy.
SW,DA, i belive don't have one.
GK has it priced into their troops, which suck soooooo.

CSM for exemple only got Tide of traitors now, after the nerf for the AL stratagem.Tide got nerfed as well as have Cultists themselves.

AM also only has it on a subfaction, with a bad trait and it beeing 3 CP.And only once up to 3 units.

That's not to say it isn't common, i feel like half the armies have something comparable as a stratagem, but most of these have it bound by subfactions/ specific units types and or restricted to one use, which generally aren't good, or less "problematic" in GW's eyes. (Aren't good anymore cough SM/CSM)

It generally also is deemed for GW anyways an unfun way to play because it leads to turn 1 melee supposedly, one of the issues they took with said stratagems before they got nerfed into oblivion.

I think in their minds that justifies alot of the higher prices on units like Boyz /Boyzlike units like lootas, burnaboyz especially i feel are a victim of this.

I don't say i find this approach good, but in a melee faction and with the Statement of GW that they didn't like T1 melee because it is "uninteractive" it would make sense to severly limit it out of their view.

Then again GW has a history of overvaluing Melee prowess and SV.

My opinion would've been, if these stratagems are such problem childs, why even implement them and not replace them to something closer to what they deem balanced.

I would've cut it and personally made Trukkz and contents of it cheap enough that it would've been playable.


I follow this line of reasoning until you mention Lootas and the like. No Ork player has ever teleported Lootas in. They are not a unit you ever want to teleport in. Burna boys are pointed so badly that shoota boys outperform them at greater range and they themselves are hardly the pinnacle of a shooting unit. If Burna boyz could natively deep strike people still wouldn't take them, they are that bad.

To be clear, the Tellyporta Stratagem does not allow turn 1 deepstrike. The only way Orks can get a unit up field on turn 1 is using Da Jump. That power can only be cast on one unit so it's limited by the casting limitations. There's nothing wrong with either of these abilities, other factions have identical powers and most have a Deep Strike equivalent, the only difference is that ours is more flexible (which is no bad thing).

Most of the Ork units that are poor are so because they are wildly overcosted. You only have to look at the new buggies, Burna Boyz compared to Hand Flamer Acolytes, Lootas, even Tankbustas are too expensive and let's not forget the joke that is the Stompa. In addition, our weapons are now too expensive compared to other equivalents, it's like GW forget that we have BS5+ on the vast majority of them. Or the people who wrote the changes introduced in CA had absolutely no communication with those who wrote the Ork codex because our codex "buff" lasted all of a month. CA18 invalidated it almost immediately.

Lootas are far too expensive for their current cost. It doesn't matter how good your gun is, when you have T4 and a 6+ save at 17 pts is a joke. GW either make the save better (so they become less reliant on Grot shields, which is their current crutch) or they drastically cut their cost. I dare say a 3+ save is not going to happen, but to make Nobs should not have the same save as Lootas and Lootas cannot exist with a 6+ save at 17ppm. And the issue becomes more complex, because if GW drop their cost significantly they simply become spammed.

Burna boyz need a D6 flamer. Possibly a better than 6+ save but that's more of a fluff thing. The fact that they're D3 and only 8" is ridiculous. It just doesn't work and I find it amazing that this got through testing. Like what is their purpose? They're worse than our standard troops.

Tank Bustas are similar to Lootas in that they have decent offense but absolutely no defence. Luckily their weapons are Assault so they can do something even if they're in a transport, which is nice because a transport is absolutely necessary for them to function. But it aint hard to kill a Trukk and 17 ppm + 64 pt for Trukk is not a cheap prospect for an Ork player. I guess they show how poorly priced the Rokkit Launchas are.

I can't be bothered to summarise all of the reasons the buggies are so bad right now, but I think it's pretty obvious when they're compared to other units of a similar ilk.

Warbikes aren't too far off, they just need a buff in line with every other bike.

For some reason our planes are the only ones in the game that I know of with a 4+ save instead of 3+, which is odd.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I no longer play orks (sold them in 6th) but still like to follow information and threads on them.

Just like to say what a well reasoned and written piece of constructive feedback that is. I feel things like that are much more likely to get the attention of GW than the usual wish lists. Things like giving a load of ork units a 3+ save or invulnerables are just not going to happen where as a few well reasoned price drops are far more likely.

Speaking as someone who plays against orks alot (I sold my old force to a friend) I think the new codex seems pretty powerful, loads of useful stratagems and some excellent units. Very hard to play the mission against due to the amount of bodies they can field. As with all armies there are units that just don't perform at their points value so asking for some minor adjustments seems a good way to go.


Nice bit of shade you throwing there. I hate to say it but if you no longer play Orks it's very unlikely you have any idea what's needed to balance the faction.

Those 3+ and invulnerable saves I suggested are for our characters. Y'know, the units in the army that are supposed to be good/fun to play? Our characters all die to a stiff breeze. The only invulnerable they have access to is through KFF (which doesn't work in melee combat, where they want to be) and through a subfaction/detachment specific relic. That's it. Wyches have a 4++ in melee and are able to lock down units in combat (something our faction absolutely should be able to do, but can't) and they aren't considered broken. So why shouldn't we get some good stuff? Why are people so scared of Orks being competitive? Not to mention the fact that Storm Shields might as well be free they are so cheap now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/19 19:17:10


 
   
Made in ch
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I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.

Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.

It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.


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_______________________________

Who would win:
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Made in gb
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Not Online!!! wrote:
I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.

Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.

It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.

Sorry I guess I didn't understand the point of mentioning T1 melee since it's incredibly hard for Orks to do any effective T1 melee outside of Da Jump? I'm not sure what AL have to do with a discussion on Orks either?

I'm not sure what gun is worse than a burna but there can't be many.

It's a pretty big leap to state that T2 charge is uninteractive. Charging and combat is actually the most interactive part of the game. It's the only time your opponent gets to do something in your turn. Shooting me off the board is the definition of "uninteractive". It's not particularly fun to watch my army get point and clicked into oblivion without the opponent needing to move an inch. Charging successfully requires making it across the board somehow, getting through overwatch, hoping your opponent doesn't interrupt combat, then taking the return hits.

I can't imagine them costing all units like they are going to deep strike using Tellyporta. It's a stratagem suited to very few units and we can see how much they believe Deep Strike to be worth through the costing of Kommandos that are effectively Boyz + Deep Strike for 8 ppm. So they reckon it's worth a point on a Boy-like unit.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I again reiterate, this is not my reasoning, this is the reasoning of GW because all they see in a loota and especially a burnaboy is a boy Plattform with waaaaaaay better gun and a stratagem to throw it at enemies.

Also i never said t1 melee charges i stated that Gw finds t1 melee uninteractive hence the nerf for the AL rg stratagems.

It is also no leap of thought that they would find a t2 charge uninteractive, that however they also can't cut the stratagem since trukks et al are not good enough.
So imo their reasoning is then to just cost all units like they always have tellyporta just like their reasoning for cultists is also along the line of having votwl, morale imunity outflank and recycle even tough nobody that picks 10 man squads would ever use any of the above ever.

Sorry I guess I didn't understand the point of mentioning T1 melee since it's incredibly hard for Orks to do any effective T1 melee outside of Da Jump? I'm not sure what AL have to do with a discussion on Orks either?

I'm not sure what gun is worse than a burna but there can't be many.

It's a pretty big leap to state that T2 charge is uninteractive. Charging and combat is actually the most interactive part of the game. It's the only time your opponent gets to do something in your turn. Shooting me off the board is the definition of "uninteractive". It's not particularly fun to watch my army get point and clicked into oblivion without the opponent needing to move an inch. Charging successfully requires making it across the board somehow, getting through overwatch, hoping your opponent doesn't interrupt combat, then taking the return hits.

I can't imagine them costing all units like they are going to deep strike using Tellyporta. It's a stratagem suited to very few units and we can see how much they believe Deep Strike to be worth through the costing of Kommandos that are effectively Boyz + Deep Strike for 8 ppm. So they reckon it's worth a point on a Boy-like unit.


Yeah however in their mind they recently buffed melee aggression via removal of Initiative value.
Also commados don't have burnas and I feel like gw is just overvaluing burnas with tellyporta.
And gw thought autohitting + melee ap value = broken with tellyporta.

I don't agree with their sentiment but i also rather would play against a fairly costed Ork army ( since mine is just sidelined atm) than one that relies in essence on a crutch.

Also with the removal of the Initiative value melee did become a lot less interactive.

Edit: i again reiterate the cultist exemple, they are costed with all the exemple boosts but many didn't field them that way.
IG squads have no such capability this is why i rekon they are let at 4 ppm, however questionable that is when cultists are now 5 but he at this point the south Park Bank / economical Scene applies, the one with the chicken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/19 21:47:38


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah however in their mind they recently buffed melee aggression via removal of Initiative value.
Also commados don't have burnas and I feel like gw is just overvaluing burnas with tellyporta.
And gw thought autohitting + melee ap value = broken with tellyporta.

I don't agree with their sentiment but i also rather would play against a fairly costed Ork army ( since mine is just sidelined atm) than one that relies in essence on a crutch.

Burnas have an 8" range. Tellyporta'd burna boyz must be at least 9" away. This can't be the reason for the overcosted Burnas. Even GW know that the Burna won't be in range if the Burna boyz tellyport in.

Also with the removal of the Initiative value melee did become a lot less interactive.

Edit: i again reiterate the cultist exemple, they are costed with all the exemple boosts but many didn't field them that way.
IG squads have no such capability this is why i rekon they are let at 4 ppm, however questionable that is when cultists are now 5 but he at this point the south Park Bank / economical Scene applies, the one with the chicken.

Melee is more interactive in my opinion. You can decide to interrupt which is something you had no choice in previously.

I don't know what you're talking about with Cultists and IG but this thread is for discussing Orks and their issues. Leave the other stuff for other threads.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.

Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Not Online!!! wrote:
The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.

Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.

But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.

Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.

   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.

Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.

But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.

Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.



So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Not Online!!! wrote:
So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.

That can't really be the case seeing as how normal slugga boyz will deal more damage in CC against a lot of targets per model, not per point. Those boyz are also troops and bring a plethora of other buffs by being larger groups. 15 burna boyz deepstriking to get into melee is a waste of points. That's 180 points, you can get 25 boyz and change for that. There is absolutely no chance at all they looked at burna boyz as overperforming at any point during 8th.

No, while it wouldn't surprise me if GW implemented the Tellyporta strat as a balance tool, "a rising tide lifts all ships" and all that I really doubt that's the case with burna boyz. They were costed before handflamers went from d3 shots to d6, before the GSC codex dropped, before CA 2018. I'd wager a long time before CA 2018 seeing as how basically all named characters dropped massively in that book while Ghaz actually got more expensive in the Ork 'dex. I think they sat on a finished Ork codex for a while and it was almost fine when comparing it to other armies. Unfortunately CA came along and a lot of units have aged poorly since.

Even at 8 points per model I'm not sure they'd be better than normal slugga boyz in CC when factoring in the buffs those guys get. Seeing as it would probably be 4 attacks versus 2 attacks (with AP-2).Especially considering they don't get a boss nob. They'd be better at shooting than normal slugga boyz, but more expensive and not troops (or have free tankbusta bombs). I just think they should be 10ppm and get to reroll all wounds but honestly even that might not be enough, D3 flamers are just so underwhelming.
   
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Revered Rogue Psyker





I feel like squad size Boni for a lot of the smaller squads like burnaboys would need to be implemented, that said make it d6 allready.


No, while it wouldn't surprise me if GW implemented the Tellyporta strat as a balance tool, "a rising tide lifts all ships" and all that I really doubt that's the case with burna boyz. They were costed before handflamers went from d3 shots to d6, before the GSC codex dropped, before CA 2018. I'd wager a long time before CA 2018 seeing as how basically all named characters dropped massively in that book while Ghaz actually got more expensive in the Ork 'dex. I think they sat on a finished Ork codex for a while and it was almost fine when comparing it to other armies. Unfortunately CA came along and a lot of units have aged poorly since.

I do think you are on to something there.

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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The reason the cultist exemple is off relevance is because it shows that stratagems influence the price of units alot.

Basically gw doesn't want to change a stratagem and rather changes the price of units using it.

But your example falls down in the case of Burna boys as they can't use their weapons after arriving from Deep Strike as you assumed. I don't think even GW are stupid enough to miss that.

Cultists and Infantry should be exactly the same cost in my opinion, their abilities are virtually equal and if one has better stratagems the other has orders and the like so they balance out. Regardless this topic is for discussing Orks, please stop derailing.



So are burnaboys, burnaboys also can charge with a full squad of ap - weapons.
Do you understand now the analogy?
I suspect they were during test phase overperforming and or they limited the deep strike range but why burnas are d3 is beyond me.



Burnaboyz suck, as mentioned already, for the cost of 15 burna's you can take 25+boyz, Those 25 boyz get 100 CC attacks, those 15 burnas get 30. So Boyz get 67 hits and 33ish wounds vs T4 and against a 2+ save that is 5.5 wounds Burnas get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and against a 2+ save they get 5 wounds. Against a 3+ save the boyz get 11 wounds where as the Burna's get 6-7, against a 4+ save the Boyz get 16 wounds the burnas get 9ish. In no way are burna's worth mentioning. and that isn't even taking into account that hte biggest weakness Burna's face compared to boyz is durability. 25 wounds with a 6+ save is a lot harder to remove then 15 wounds with a 6+ save. Not to even mention mob rule.

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