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 JawRippa wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
I certainly agree on that some of the units need a hefty point reduction. Some other a rule rewrite.

Agreed on most of the mentioned stuff. Maybe painboys could be less abusable if you could pick an infantry/bike unit within 6" and that unit gains a 5+++?

Yea I agree on much that was said, apart from the Stompa comment lol.

I also agree that Pain boys need a change in rules to be useful and a 5+++ whether targeted or smaller range sounds reasonable. It has all the benefits stated earlier but also helps synergize with the Snakebites kultur.

The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:

Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1

In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit

PiñaColada wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:

Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1

In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit

I like this a lot. Quite flavorful and is certainly a lot more usable than their current state.

PiñaColada wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I want dual profile burnas.
Imagine they have:

Burna: 12" Assault D3 S4 AP0 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against infantry
Cutta 6" Pistol 1 S6 AP-2 D1 - Reroll failed wound rolls against vehicles, if target is a vehicle change damage to D3 instead of 1

In addition they have a 5+ save instead of 6+. With a pistol profile they can fire in CC (if they live that long) and S6 rerolling damage rolls is actually pretty decent against vehicles.
Edit: Obviously both profiles auto-hit

It's a neat idea. Keep Assault 1 for the cutta and give the weapon a similar profile for CC. Solved. Otherwise you can only use the cutta profile in CC every 2 rounds of combat (as only in your shooting). Even with a 5+ and this weapon they should cost no more than 10pts.

Someone with time should do a summary and forward it to GW

Well, I don't think the Cutta profile should be assault, it's a torch. You can still have an 18" threat range if they're in a trukk (19" if ES) so it's still quite useable as a normal shooting attack. And if someone consolidates into your burnas to shut down their shooting then they'll hit you with auto-hitting S6 AP-2 shots. That basically autokills guardsmen. They would still keep their current AP-2 CC attacks as well.

Even with my suggested profile they'd still probably be a bit overcosted at 12ppm but I'd be okay with that cost then at least.

What is exact GW contact mail to send suggestions to?

 JawRippa wrote:
What is exact GW contact mail to send suggestions to?

40kfaq@gwplc.com

 JawRippa wrote:
What is exact GW contact mail to send suggestions to?

You may want to add the petition to move the wartrike from 150mm to a 120mm base. Looks much better.

I still want the suggestion that was thrown around when the New plastic Killa Kans were released but they should be able to take dual melee/dual ranged weapons. 2 rokkits a kan running around would be quite a threat as a unit of 6.

mhalko1 wrote:
I still want the suggestion that was thrown around when the New plastic Killa Kans were released but they should be able to take dual melee/dual ranged weapons. 2 rokkits a kan running around would be quite a threat as a unit of 6.

Even just making rokkits more modular when being mounted on vehicles would help alleviate some of the problem. Make them assault D3 (or a flat 2) when mounted on vehicles, versus when run on infantry, similar to how Dark Lances become assault on vehicles for Drukhari. That way tankbustas don't get buffed to the roof while making rokkit launchas a more palatable choice for being mounted on vehicles, especially as index options for trukks and battlewagons, while also making them feel less of a tax for guys who have to take it like Morka/Gorkanauts and a lot of the new warbuggy replacements.

Should Boyz stay as they are at 7ppm?

7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...

 Kroem wrote:
7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...

They won't make them half a point.

To be fair I wouldn't mind them staying 7ppm if other units were made better to compensate.

For me, they're a 6ppm unit, given the capabilities of other units that cost a similar amount.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...

They won't make them half a point.

To be fair I wouldn't mind them staying 7ppm if other units were made better to compensate.

For me, they're a 6ppm unit, given the capabilities of other units that cost a similar amount.

You're right they won't, but I think the 'correct' price lies somewhere in between 6 and 7!

I like how in power level they price for blocks of 10 instead of individual models, if points did the same it would give the designers more room for minor points tweeks.
e.g. you could make 10 orks cost 64 points so that each model effectively costs 6.4.

 Kroem wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
7 seems slightly too much, 6 seems slightly too little. Maybe make them 6.5 points each...

They won't make them half a point.

To be fair I wouldn't mind them staying 7ppm if other units were made better to compensate.

For me, they're a 6ppm unit, given the capabilities of other units that cost a similar amount.

You're right they won't, but I think the 'correct' price lies somewhere in between 6 and 7!

I like how in power level they price for blocks of 10 instead of individual models, if points did the same it would give the designers more room for minor points tweeks.
e.g. you could make 10 orks cost 64 points so that each model effectively costs 6.4.

Interestingly orks went down in PL but up in points.

I suspect the 'free' tankbuster bombz might have been an attempt to boost orks from being worth 6.5 points each to 7 each.

I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.

If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.

If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.

Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.

If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.

Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.

No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.

I think you're right that they are priced due to the ability to 'da jump' or deepstrike them, that's why they feel too expensive when charging up the board in the traditional manner.
It is something that came up as restricting Orks design space in another thread, as everything has to balanced around potential deep strike insertion!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.

If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.

Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.

No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.

Kill 15, they lose d6 extra from Morale.
Kill 15 Bloodletters, you lose 8+d6.

In addition, your morale mitigating characters are below 10 wounds. Nothing that helps Letters with morale are. (There is one character that helps with morale and is at 4 wounds, but he's Nurgle, and only lets you roll 2 and take the lower.)

 JNAProductions wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd argue that Boyz absolutely are a 7 PPM model. Just compare them to Bloodletters: they both charge from Deep Strike and kill stuff dead, with the Orks having a (much) higher volume of attacks but the Bloodletters being better against bigger models. They're the two premier Deep Strike assault units in the game, they perform very similar roles, and they're both 7 PPM. The Bloodletters have a 5++, but are only T3 to the Boyz' T4.

Bloodletters are better than Boyz. Their weapons have -3 AP vs Boyz no AP, on 6s to wound they do 2 damage a pop (which means they can kill a broader spectrum of units more effectively) and they have a 5++ built in while Boyz have a 6+ t-shirt save only. Boyz get more attacks if there's 20 or more, Letters get to hit on 2s. Boyz don't have the option to bring models back to life during a morale check.

If I had the option to take Boyz or Bloodletters in my army I know which one I'd pick.

Yeah, but Boyz are incredibly resistant to morale. Letters are not-you're relying on rolling a 1 to pass a Morale test if you brought an Icon.

No they aren't. They have morale mitigation if they're in massive numbers or if they're near another massive unit. So when they inevitably take casualties because a T4, 6+ save is squishy as hell and they're not near another massive unit because as Almighty Walrus said, they're thrown up field with Da Jump, they fall apart. Kill 15 models in a unit of 30 and they are guaranteed to take morale losses, unless we assume characters or another unit is nearby. In which case I'll assume Skarbrand is with the Letters in which case they are morale immune.

Kill 15, they lose d6 extra from Morale.
Kill 15 Bloodletters, you lose 8+d6.

Wrong. There's a 1/6 chance they gain D6 models back to their unit....

In addition, your morale mitigating characters are below 10 wounds. Nothing that helps Letters with morale are. (There is one character that helps with morale and is at 4 wounds, but he's Nurgle, and only lets you roll 2 and take the lower.)

So? We're the slowest army in the game with our base movement and as has been discussed, the Boyz unit is thrown up field without support. Not to mention the existence of Snipers that are about to storm the meta.

Look at it this way-Orks get 2-4 attacks on base models alone.

Bloodletters get 1, or 2 on the charge.

Orks also natively have a better charge reroll than Letters can get by bringing a supporting character, they can advance and charge with support, they can go up to 2+ to-hit as well...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Look at it this way-Orks get 2-4 attacks on base models alone.

Bloodletters get 1, or 2 on the charge.

Orks also natively have a better charge reroll than Letters can get by bringing a supporting character, they can advance and charge with support, they can go up to 2+ to-hit as well...

Yes and I've addressed all of these points above. 1 or 2 attacks that have AP-3 and hit on 2s. I'd rather have them than 2-4 attacks with no AP hitting on 3s.

3D6 charge is better than anything Ork Boyz have access to.

The banner nob is extremely expensive and unlikely to be in a great position since both Boyz and Bloodletters are teleported/deep strike into enemy lines.

Also 5++ vs 6+.

Ork boys problem is not against bloodletters, it's against grot. So an internal balance problem. Not external.

At 7 pts, orks are too expensive to field in numbers. Again I understand that 6 could also be too little under certain conditionals, no matter the additional cost associated (CPs or psiq powers).

Bombing orks is a good tactic, albeit expensive but the core of the army is currently 3x10 grots. Culprit could be the CP system, but they truth is the only reason why we max out with grot is because basic orks are having a tough time staying on the table.

Maybe an intermediate solution could be giving the heavy weapon for free (which are now overcosted). If so, the basic cost stays "high" but you get something extra to mitigate the point investment.

Please, when comparing externally remember that Orks have ONLY 2 troop choices. Grot or orks. Both need to be viable.

I think 7 points is about right in the Ork codex, considering the Klan traits and other associated stratagems. The bigger issue is the cost of weapons and other units in the army that don't make up for their increase in cost.

Rokkit launchas should not cost 12 points in a boy squad, at most maybe 5. Big Shootas need a revision in general IMO, as discussed before, either making it rapid fire 3 or giving it AP-1 for its current points cost, otherwise dropping it down even further given how inconsequential it is as a weapon. Give boyz the options to take burnas as special weapons and I feel like they start to have more potential punch without having to change their base points cost.

I agree with Orkimedez that we have to be careful regarding points changes with troops given we have no ability to soup and that we only have 2 options. Make it too much one way or the other and its spam only one and ignore the other like in the SM codex.

Would be cool if Orks could get Pulsa weapons back that interfered with Inv saves somehow. That'd give Orks a means to deal with Castellans without Kamikaze-ing in with a Warboss or Tankbustas. Like, "Models hit must reroll successful invulnerable saves until the end of the turn" or something.

Then again, it'd require something worth shooting at the Knight in the first place...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Would be cool if Orks could get Pulsa weapons back that interfered with Inv saves somehow. That'd give Orks a means to deal with Castellans without Kamikaze-ing in with a Warboss or Tankbustas. Like, "Models hit must reroll successful invulnerable saves until the end of the turn" or something.

Then again, it'd require something worth shooting at the Knight in the first place...

I'd be behind something like that. The only pulsa weapon I really remember is the pulsa rokkit from Apoc back from 5th edition. They could do a miniature version on a buggy or alternative mek gun where it does something similar to a deathstrike missile launcher (without the arbitrary countdown), where you put a marker down and it affects all enemy units wholly within 9" to have to re-roll successful invulnerable saves and halves their movement and advance rolls until the start of your next turn. Obviously it'd be one shot. The only problem is that it seems like a very "all or nothing" type weapon, but I'm wary of giving it a profile that requires hitting an opponent to cause effects, mainly because it might infringe on existing Ork weaponry (similar to how Smasha Gunz have monopolized ranged AT in Ork armies currently outside of Tankbustas).

I'm really digging different profiles for weapons on vehicles and weapons on infantry. That way you could mess with rokkit launcha/kb/bshoota without fear of overbuffing something like tankbustas.

As much as I'd love seing big shoota become rapid fire 3, I feel that it wouldn't mesh that well with assault profile of shootas. Maybe let it have different profiles depending on range, similar to tau breacher shotgun. Giving it AP-1 could also work.

36" assault 3
18" assault 6
9" assault 9 (so it won't work on deepstrike)

What do you think, would giving all boys an innate 6+++, with doks/klan traits being able to bump it up by +1 or providing rerolls make their price of 7 pts more fair, or it'd be a bump them way above?

IMHO, the problem with the big shoota is that it was created in resemblance to the heavy bolter. It inheritated the number of shoots and sort of rolle as long range support at least in 4th ed). As such, it suffers the same fate. How long since you saw a heavy bolter?

Many things have changed since but the weapon profile, hence the problem. If a shoota is assault 2 18", a big shoota can't just be +1 shot. It has to at least double the number of shots. So, assault 4 should be the bare minimum. Dropping them for free where accessible as they are a gimmick would also go in the right direction.

Supashoota should adapt accordingly which would up the dakkajet output to 24 (6*4) shoots. Drop price to 5 points and the dakkajet becomes a good airsupport at 120pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JawRippa wrote:


What do you think, would giving all boys an innate 6+++, with doks/klan traits being able to bump it up by +1 or providing rerolls make their price of 7 pts more fair, or it'd be a bump them way above?

Universal snake bites for free is too simple and unnecessary IMHO. To be fair, boyz are close to the 7pts of net worth. Most of us would agree that 6.5 it's their real value.

Take 10 boys no upgrades. 70pts -- 7 points per boy.
Take 10 boys with big shoota. 75pts -- 7.5 per boy

Now give the b.shoota for free. 70/75*7 for an approx 6.53pts per boy.

Also, as stated. Make b.shootas assault 4.