Smoke launchers
Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.
Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’
phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such
phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect
‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.
Smoke launchers are an ability, and it doesnt say friendly, or enemy phase. This confirms that you can use smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
This confirms that it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to. You cannot shoot in your opponents shooting phase, but you can use smoke launchers.
As a bonus, say you use smoke launcher after your opponent declared your smoke launcher unit as a target Smoke launchers doesnt say you have to use it at the start of the shooting phase
p5freak wrote: Short answer, yes you can. Explanation below :
Smoke launchers
Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase,
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.
I think you're right that by RAW you can use Smoke Launchers in the enemy phase. I am also convinced it is not intended and would never try to pull that trick in a game.
My main reasoning is that Smoke Launchers are intended to be a strategic decision to give up offense for defense. Using it in your opponent's turn takes that away. It would always be preferable (except in extreme edge cases) to use Smoke Launchers in your opponent's turn.
That being the case, the deal is sealed for me in that no GW employee has ever used Smoke Launchers like that in any report or streamed battle. If they thought they could, they absolutely would as it is almost strictly better.
So yeah, neat catch but please don't ever try to use it in a game! Email the FAQ address maybe.
DeathReaper wrote:
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.
I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
No. Because we haven’t miraculously been playing this wrong since 2017. You’ve done very well, great spot... now accept no one plays it this way and that’s not what the FAQ means.
JohnnyHell wrote: No. Because we haven’t miraculously been playing this wrong since 2017. You’ve done very well, great spot... now accept no one plays it this way and that’s not what the FAQ means.
True, it wasnt possible to play it like this since 2017. GW enabled it with the release of their FAQs. Its legal now.
DeathReaper wrote: Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.
I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it? A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I read your entire post. it is off base.
The context of the rule is that you need to give up shooting. You can not do that in the enemy phase.
Do not ignore the context of the rule. Only if you ignore the context can you use this in your opponents shooting phase...
P.S. "Cannot shoot or it chooses not to." Means that it must be your shooting phase as that is the only time a unit Cannot shoot, or can choose not to.
DeathReaper wrote:
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.
I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I read your entire post. it is off base.
The context of the rule is that you need to give up shooting. You can not do that in the enemy phase.
Wrong. The FAQ doesnt say you have to give up shooting. You can use smoke launcher if you cannot shoot. The reason why you cannot shoot is irrelevant.
Eihnlazer wrote: Noone can disprove you, good job. Nobody needs to disprove you.
We know it wasn't intended.
Except I have disproved him...
No, you actually haven't. The answer in the FAQ clearly states that it can use the smoke launchers even if the model can't actually shoot. The Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase, therefor it can still use its' smoke launchers. RAW (including the FAQ) shows that you can -in fact- use smoke launchers in your opponent's shooting phase.
That being said, it's clearly NOT intended, and yet an oversight GW has made. I will never do it and I would never let any opponent do it, and it will never be allowed in a tournament. I do like these kinds of extreme loopholes and fringe cases, even if they never will be allowed. Did you for example know that pistols can't be shot in CC, if you look strictly at RAW?
I thought we had all agreed that we were going to start tagging things ""Exploit" for things that we know are not the intention of the rule, but where the RAW got messed up enough that it allows for us to do the unintended thing.
Ice_can wrote: Exploit edge rules lawyering aside, which FAQ gives you permission to select your unit to be able to select the ability in the opponents turn?
Were is the permission to use an ability of a model in the enemy phase when you can't select that unit?
The smoke launcher rule says I can use it in the shooting phase.
Ice_can wrote: Exploit edge rules lawyering aside, which FAQ gives you permission to select your unit to be able to select the ability in the opponents turn?
Were is the permission to use an ability of a model in the enemy phase when you can't select that unit?
The smoke launcher rule says I can use it in the shooting phase.
Yes, but you can't select one of your units in the enemy shooting phase (see my rule blurb above).
So you already failt at point 1. of the Shooting Phase sequence.
And I'm not sure how you think you can skip this step to even get to "use ability instead of shooting".
As per rule of permissive rule set, where does it tell you explicitly and specifically that you CAN use your smoke launcher during your opponent's shooting phase?
"It doesn't tell me I can't" is not a valid reasoning for an argument in permissive rule set.
skchsan wrote: As per rule of permissive rule set, where does it tell you explicitly and specifically that you CAN use your smoke launcher during your opponent's shooting phase?
"It doesn't tell me I can't" is not a valid reasoning for an argument in permissive rule set.
No, this is wrong. It clearly says you can use it in the Shooting Phase (so both yours and the enemies).
He's right with this.
But you can't select one of your units to shoot with in the enemy shooting phase, you have no valid unit that can use the ability.
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given. The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved. Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful. But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").
They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given. The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved. Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful. But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase? Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given. The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved. Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful. But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase? Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
The takeaway from my post should have been that even if you found a way to choose one of your units, it would NOT matter. Because then you would have a Sequencing issue, in which the player whose turn it is (your opponent) would get to choose what gets resolved first.
Someone will find a way to say they can choose their units to use Smoke, because the FAQs say you can use them. So rather than support/refute that, I found it easier just to shoot down its relevance. Case in point:
A Town Called Malus wrote: Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?
This is actually a good point. Smoke is an ability, which doesn't require selecting the unit to use, as otherwise loads of abilities would not work. But it does require "activation" unlike passive abilities. And that "activation" can be up to the player whose turn it is.
So I would resolve all my shooting first, then allow my opponent to pop Smoke if they still want to.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").
They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?
"Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers".
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
This is actually a good point. Smoke is an ability, which doesn't require selecting the unit to use, as otherwise loads of abilities would not work.
But again, it does require "activation" unlike passive abilities. And that "activation" can be up to the player whose turn it is.
So I would resolve all my shooting first, then allow my opponent to pop Smoke if they still want to.
-
No, it's not a good point. Otherwise, you opponent can activate the smoke launcher on your vehicles.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").
They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?
"Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers".
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Why does this matter? I've shown that due to Sequencing, you can resolve you Shooting before your opponent has a chance to use Smoke.
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Except we don't because the FAQ states that a unit which cannot shoot can still use abilities which replace shooting.
A Rhino with no guns (therefore not viable to shoot with as per the rules "In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.") could still use its smoke launchers as the ability to shoot is not required, as per the FAQ.
I agree with those pointing out there's no means to select the unit to fire during your opponent's shooting phase. Could you choose to launch smoke instead of firing over watch? I'm not saying it'd be effective, but might get more of a chuckle from your opponent than if you try to do it during his shooting phase.
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Except we don't because the FAQ states that a unit which cannot shoot can still use abilities which replace shooting.
A Rhino with no guns could still use its smoke launchers as the ability to shoot is not required, as per the FAQ.
You can still select a unit to shoot with that has no shooting weapons in your Shooting Phase because it's step 1, before choosing a target unit or a weapon to shoot with.
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Except we don't because the FAQ states that a unit which cannot shoot can still use abilities which replace shooting.
A Rhino with no guns could still use its smoke launchers as the ability to shoot is not required, as per the FAQ.
You can still select a unit to shoot with that has no shooting weapons in your Shooting Phase because it's step 1, before choosing a target unit or a weapon to shoot with.
Smoke launchers aren't a weapon trying to make a shooting attack. It's a unit ability being activated. The shooting phase sequencing rules have no bearing.
And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.
"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Except we don't because the FAQ states that a unit which cannot shoot can still use abilities which replace shooting.
A Rhino with no guns could still use its smoke launchers as the ability to shoot is not required, as per the FAQ.
You can still select a unit to shoot with that has no shooting weapons in your Shooting Phase because it's step 1, before choosing a target unit or a weapon to shoot with.
Smoke launchers aren't a weapon trying to make a shooting attack. It's a unit ability being activated. The shooting phase sequencing rules have no bearing.
Why not? Where does it say that it's happening at the start/end of the Shooting Phase? Because that would be an exception that allows to ignore normal sequencing.
"Instead of shooting" does not.
It's almost like patching your ruleset with decree via rules ignoring FAQs instead of proper errata changing the rules causes more problems than it solves. A surprising revelation no-one could have predicted!
Galef wrote: Why does this matter? I've shown that due to Sequencing, you can resolve you Shooting before your opponent has a chance to use Smoke.
I like this answer because it gives GW a micrometer thin veneer of competency. "See, we didn't write that rule badly, because we wrote this OTHER rule to deal with it in a totally round-about and unintuitive way!
That being said, this still gives you the ability to bypass the "no shooting" clause, which goes against the "spirit" of the rules.
p5freak's interpretation is "wrong", but not invalid thanks to GW issuing Special Snowflaking FAQs like they are going out of style instead of writing their rules correctly. What GW need to do is write the smoke launcher rule correctly, thus negating the need for the Special Snowflake FAQ regarding "instead of shooting".
No activation of units in the opponent's phase except close combat. Otherwise I will be casting with all my thousand sons on my opponent's psychic phase as well, as there is literally nothing in the rules stating that I can only cast on my own psychic phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's almost like patching your ruleset with decree via rules ignoring FAQs instead of proper errata changing the rules causes more problems than it solves. A surprising revelation no-one could have predicted!
Galef wrote: Why does this matter? I've shown that due to Sequencing, you can resolve you Shooting before your opponent has a chance to use Smoke.
I like this answer because it gives GW a micrometer thin veneer of competency. "See, we didn't write that rule badly, because we wrote this OTHER rule to deal with it in a totally round-about and unintuitive way!
That being said, this still gives you the ability to bypass the "no shooting" clause, which goes against the "spirit" of the rules.
p5freak's interpretation is "wrong", but not invalid thanks to GW issuing Special Snowflaking FAQs like they are going out of style instead of writing their rules correctly. What GW need to do is write the smoke launcher rule correctly, thus negating the need for the Special Snowflake FAQ regarding "instead of shooting".
I agree with BCB 100% in this case. Strictly as per RAW, whether it be due to ambiguous writing or simply poorly written, the usage condition for smoke launchers does indeed say a certain unspecified 'shooting phase.'
What I'm asking for is, is the liberty of interpreting "any unspecified shooting phase" as "any shooting phase, regardless of mine or the opponent's" granted to us? Is there an explicit and specific provisions within the rulebook that tells us if the phrase "shooting phase" is not specified as during my own turn or during opponent's turn, we are allowed to interpret it as as during mine AND/OR opponent's?
Galef wrote: Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."
It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers
So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?
Having said that, I would be fine if GWFAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.
-
How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
The takeaway from my post should have been that even if you found a way to choose one of your units, it would NOT matter.
Because then you would have a Sequencing issue, in which the player whose turn it is (your opponent) would get to choose what gets resolved first.
Someone will find a way to say they can choose their units to use Smoke, because the FAQs say you can use them. So rather than support/refute that, I found it easier just to shoot down its relevance.
Case in point:
A Town Called Malus wrote: Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?
This is actually a good point. Smoke is an ability, which doesn't require selecting the unit to use, as otherwise loads of abilities would not work.
But it does require "activation" unlike passive abilities. And that "activation" can be up to the player whose turn it is.
So I would resolve all my shooting first, then allow my opponent to pop Smoke if they still want to.
-
Most abilities that are intended to work in the enemy turn/phase usually have a when X happens you may do Y so the permission to use the ability is written in by the activation requirement.
But more practically that sequencing rebuke is nice to have for when someone decieds to go full douche.
Ice_can wrote: Most abilities that are intended to work in the enemy turn/phase usually have a when X happens you may do Y so the permission to use the ability is written in by the activation requirement.
But more practically that sequencing rebuke is nice to have for when someone decieds to go full douche.
Which is basically HIWPI if an opponent wants to use their Smoke in my turn.
Rather than get into a long, potentially draw out argument as to whether they can do it (like how this thread is going) and thus wasting valuable game time, I would relent and allow my opponent to use their Smoke. But per sequencing, I would choose to resolve my shooting before they can activate their Smoke, thereby making the point moot.
Ice_can wrote: Most abilities that are intended to work in the enemy turn/phase usually have a when X happens you may do Y so the permission to use the ability is written in by the activation requirement.
But more practically that sequencing rebuke is nice to have for when someone decieds to go full douche.
Which is basically HIWPI if an opponent wants to use their Smoke in my turn.
Rather than get into a long, potentially draw out argument as to whether they can do it (like how this thread is going) and thus wasting valuable game time, I would relent and allow my opponent to use their Smoke.
But per sequencing, I would choose to resolve my shooting before they can activate their Smoke, thereby making the point moot.
topaxygouroun i wrote: No activation of units in the opponent's phase except close combat. Otherwise I will be casting with all my thousand sons on my opponent's psychic phase as well, as there is literally nothing in the rules stating that I can only cast on my own psychic phase.
There is no restriction in the Psychic Phase rules, but you better check your unit data sheets
Eihnlazer wrote: Noone can disprove you, good job. Nobody needs to disprove you.
We know it wasn't intended.
Except I have disproved him...
No, you actually haven't. The answer in the FAQ clearly states that it can use the smoke launchers even if the model can't actually shoot. The Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase, therefor it can still use its' smoke launchers. RAW (including the FAQ) shows that you can -in fact- use smoke launchers in your opponent's shooting phase.
I have disproved him, he is ignoring the context of the rules. it is not about the "Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase" it is about the context of the FAQ which, in context, means that if you can not shoot on your turn, you can still use smoke.
The FAQ does not apply.
The FAQ only applies to your turn, because of the context of the FAQ.
DeathReaper wrote: I have disproved him, he is ignoring the context of the rules. it is not about the "Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase" it is about the context of the FAQ which, in context, means that if you can not shoot on your turn, you can still use smoke.
The FAQ does not apply.
The FAQ only applies to your turn, because of the context of the FAQ.
Context doesn't change what the rules say. You constantly keep screaming about context and refuse to engage in discussion or provide citations.
DeathReaper wrote: I have disproved him, he is ignoring the context of the rules. it is not about the "Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase" it is about the context of the FAQ which, in context, means that if you can not shoot on your turn, you can still use smoke.
The FAQ does not apply.
The FAQ only applies to your turn, because of the context of the FAQ.
Context doesn't change what the rules say. You constantly keep screaming about context and refuse to engage in discussion or provide citations.
That is because some are ignoring the context of the FAQ. Let me break it down so you guys understand the context.
The FAQ states that
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
They are talking about abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’ Shooting happens in your own shooting phase. That is the context of that FAQ. Your own shooting phase, not the opponents.
Smoke launchers can be used (When you would normally be able to shoot, but something is disallowing that shooting like being within 1 inch of an enemy model in your own shooting phase.
Please do not ignore the context of the FAQ.
It does not mean that you can use Smoke in your enemies turn.
DeathReaper wrote: I have disproved him, he is ignoring the context of the rules. it is not about the "Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase" it is about the context of the FAQ which, in context, means that if you can not shoot on your turn, you can still use smoke.
The FAQ does not apply.
The FAQ only applies to your turn, because of the context of the FAQ.
Context doesn't change what the rules say. You constantly keep screaming about context and refuse to engage in discussion or provide citations.
That is because some are ignoring the context of the FAQ. Let me break it down so you guys understand the context.
The FAQ states that
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it? A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
They are talking about abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’ Shooting happens in your own shooting phase. That is the context of that FAQ. Your own shooting phase, not the opponents.
Smoke launchers can be used (When you would normally be able to shoot, but something is disallowing that shooting like being within 1 inch of an enemy model in your own shooting phase.
Please do not ignore the context of the FAQ.
It does not mean that you can use Smoke in your enemies turn.
You can do "instead of shooting" even if you cannot shoot. It literally says "it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to." You cannot shoot in your opponents shooting phase. Therefore, due to FAQ, you may use Smoke Launchers. It's stupid, but it's par for the course when it comes to GW.
BaconCatBug wrote: You can do "instead of shooting" even if you cannot shoot. It literally says "it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to." You cannot shoot in your opponents shooting phase. Therefore, due to FAQ, you may use Smoke Launchers. It's stupid, but it's par for the course when it comes to GW.
"You can do "instead of shooting" even if you cannot shoot." Right but you would need to have been able to shoot in the first place to use a "cannot shoot or it chooses not to." ability...
"chooses not to" means, in the models shooting phase, it chooses not to shoot.
"cannot shoot" means, in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason.
So if you think you can use Smoke Launchers in an enemies turn you are ignoring the context of the rules.
So the claim of "Therefore, due to FAQ, you may use Smoke Launchers" is totally false.
BaconCatBug wrote: You can do "instead of shooting" even if you cannot shoot. It literally says "it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to." You cannot shoot in your opponents shooting phase. Therefore, due to FAQ, you may use Smoke Launchers. It's stupid, but it's par for the course when it comes to GW.
"You can do "instead of shooting" even if you cannot shoot." Right but you would need to have been able to shoot in the first place to use a "cannot shoot or it chooses not to." ability...
"chooses not to" means, in the models shooting phase, it chooses not to shoot.
"cannot shoot" means, in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason.
So if you think you can use Smoke Launchers in an enemies turn you are ignoring the context of the rules.
So the claim of "Therefore, due to FAQ, you may use Smoke Launchers" is totally false.
Stop ignoring the context
The context, in this case, is pretty much irrelevant. Or, more accurately, it doesn't change the words' meanings.
By strict RAW, you can use Smoke Launchers in your opponent's shooting phase.
Trust me-it's easier to say "Man, this part of the rules really sucks. Let's just not play that way," than it is to try to contort bad RAW into actually working.
DeathReaper wrote: "cannot shoot" means, in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason.
I am pretty sure that "cannot shoot" means "cannot shoot". If it meant to say "in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason" it would say "in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason".
If we're just going to redefine every word in the English Language I'd rather be working on my Assembly Code assignment.
JNAProductions wrote: The context, in this case, is pretty much irrelevant. Or, more accurately, it doesn't change the words' meanings.
By strict RAW, you can use Smoke Launchers in your opponent's shooting phase.
Incorrect. You can not use Smoke Launchers in your opponent's shooting phase
To do so would be to ignore the context of the Smoke launchers rules.
Smoke launchers Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase...
Look at the context here. are they talking about your own shooting phase or your opponents?
From the context (instead of shooting any weapons is the context for this. it is clearly talking about your own shooting phase) we can tell what shooting phase it is talking about. And that would be your own shooting phase, and not your opponents.
DeathReaper wrote: "cannot shoot" means, in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason.
I am pretty sure that "cannot shoot" means "cannot shoot". If it meant to say "in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason" it would say "in the models shooting phase, it can not to shoot for some reason".
If we're just going to redefine every word in the English Language I'd rather be working on my Assembly Code assignment.
Not redefining anything. I am just not ignoring the context of the rules.
JNAProductions wrote: They're talking about "the shooting phase". If it said "your shooting phase" you'd have a leg to stand on. It does not.
RAI, I agree with you, and I'm pretty sure everyone except BCB does too. But RAI is not RAW.
They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
Again, RAI I agree.
RAW does not. It would've worked, before that FAQ, since that FAQ explicitly states you do not need to be able to shoot to activate an ability like Smoke Launchers.
DeathReaper wrote: Not redefining anything. I am just not ignoring the context of the rules.
There is no "context". Please show me in the rulebook where it defines "context". By your logic, I can claim that the "context" of my Marines being Ultramarines means they get 409 wounds each and a 1++ feel no pain.
Again, context isn't a magical word that suddenly makes your incorrect arguments correct.
RAW does not. It would've worked, before that FAQ, since that FAQ explicitly states you do not need to be able to shoot to activate an ability like Smoke Launchers.
RAW does agree with what I have posted though.
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
The FAQ really does not even enter into it because the Smoke launcher rules are talking about your own shooting phase.
However the FAQ is even referring to your own shooting phase.
Ignoring the context can bring results like the OP posted.
RAW does not. It would've worked, before that FAQ, since that FAQ explicitly states you do not need to be able to shoot to activate an ability like Smoke Launchers.
RAW does agree with what I have posted though.
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
The FAQ really does not even enter into it because the Smoke launcher rules are talking about your own shooting phase.
However the FAQ is even referring to your own shooting phase.
Ignoring the context can bring results like the OP posted.
Context is needed for RAI.
It's not for RAW. And the context has no effect on the RAW as stated by myself and others in this thread.
Is there a reason you're so dead-set on GW having perfect rules writing? Because it seems an odd hill to die on.
DeathReaper wrote: Not redefining anything. I am just not ignoring the context of the rules.
There is no "context". Please show me in the rulebook where it defines "context"
There is context...
Please look up what context means. We need to use the English definition of context as it is not defined in the rules.
By your logic, I can claim that the "context" of my Marines being Ultramarines means they get 409 wounds each and a 1++ feel no pain.
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.
Again, context isn't a magical word that suddenly makes your incorrect arguments correct.
There is context,
Let me post the definition since you don't seem to understand what context means.
con·text
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
So to fully understand the rules we need to know the context.
How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.
How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.
You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.
In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.
JNAProductions wrote: This looks like RAW. Good find-another for BCB's list, I'd imagine.
But yeah, it's pretty clear that it's not MEANT to work that way, and virtually no one would play with that ruling.
How do you know that its not meant to work that way ? How do you, or anyone else who claims its not intended, know GWs intention ? No one, except GWs rules team, knows their intent. Are you a member of GWs rules team ?
They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
So RAW what I have said is correct.
You are wrong.
Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’
phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such
phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect
‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.
Smoke launcher doesnt say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.
JNAProductions wrote: This looks like RAW. Good find-another for BCB's list, I'd imagine.
But yeah, it's pretty clear that it's not MEANT to work that way, and virtually no one would play with that ruling.
How do you know that its not meant to work that way ? How do you, or anyone else who claims its not intended, know GWs intention ? No one, except GWs rules team, knows their intent. Are you a member of GWs rules team ?
How do you know I'm not?
In all seriousness, don't be a second BCB. One is quite enough. While we cannot know WITH CERTAINTY what the RAI is, we can make educated guesses. If you can find me some TOs that would listen to RAW, let me know, but for now, I'll stick to using Smoke Launchers in only my own phase. It's not RAW, but it makes the game work better.
DeathReaper wrote: They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
So RAW what I have said is correct.
You are wrong.
Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.
Smoke launcher doesnt[sic] say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt[sic] work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.
I am not wrong. It still does not work in the enemy shooting phase.
Your argument ignores the context of the rules. The rules for Smoke launchers do not allow it. Smoke launchers rules say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" this means, in context, your shooting phase, aka the friendly shooting phase.
Therefore the Smoke launcher rule does say that it only works in the friendly phase, because of the context on which the rule is written.
DeathReaper wrote: They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).
Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"
So RAW what I have said is correct.
You are wrong.
Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.
Smoke launcher doesnt[sic] say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt[sic] work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.
I am not wrong. It still does not work in the enemy shooting phase.
Your argument ignores the context of the rules. The rules for Smoke launchers do not allow it. Smoke launchers rules say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" this means, in context, your shooting phase, aka the friendly shooting phase.
Therefore the Smoke launcher rule does say that it only works in the friendly phase, because of the context on which the rule is written.
A logical deduction is made using given premises (RAW). Context is used to make logical inferences using given context (RAI).
A logical deduction can infer to multiple contents or meaning. Context is then used to determine what is being conveyed via inferences.
How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.
You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.
In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.
You can shoot in your enemies shooting phase in a variety of ways through special rules and stratagems. Within the context of acting in your enemies turn there tons of things that do that so how can you rule out smoke launchers being one of them through context? As far as I can see the context of 40k rules says it's entirely possible for something to work in your enemies phase. It seems to me you are just making a RAI argument and not a RAW one which is fine and more power to you. However you can't deny that the RAW is clear and not be making a RAI argument. If you want to talk about context you need to talk about RAI which is entirely subjective.
JNAProductions wrote: You are seriously lacking in rules to back up your argument, DeathReaper. Repeating a false statement doesn't make it any truer.
The reverse is actually true. I have shown how the rules actually work. You are ignoring the context of the rules. You are the ones repeating a false statement because you failed to take the context of the rules into account.
How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.
You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.
In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.
You can shoot in your enemies shooting phase in a variety of ways through special rules and stratagems...
But that is not what the Smoke Launcher rules are referring to. To say that it is, is disingenuous.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: However you can't deny that the RAW is clear and not be making a RAI argument. If you want to talk about context you need to talk about RAI which is entirely subjective.
The RAW is clear if you do not ignore the context. The rule is referencing your own turn...
And context is RAW as well, not just RAI.
skchsan wrote: A logical deduction is made using given premises (RAW). Context is used to make logical inferences using given context (RAI).
A logical deduction can infer to multiple contents or meaning. Context is then used to determine what is being conveyed via inferences.
Both deduction and inferences are RAW.
"The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else."
Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.
JohnnyHell wrote: Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.
Agreed. This is so clearly and patently not the RAI that in this case the RAW is basically irrelevant.
JohnnyHell wrote: Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.
Sadly this describes far too many of the threads on YMDC.
As far as the topic is concnerned, I quite like the idea of using the sequencing rules to get around this possible RAW loophole - completely within RAW and neatly sidesteps any issues with any TFGs that try to pull somehting like this.
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
DeathReaper wrote: Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.
There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.
On the contrary, the rules do very much suggest it. Surely your ‘point’ (such as it is) is that they don’t outright state it?
Actually, the context of the rules would indicate that you are allowed. Since changing "the shooting phase" to "your shooting phase" would limit the rule to your shooting phase, the deliberate use of "the shooting phase", which does not have that restriction, would indicate there is no restriction nor any intention of that restriction. This is supported by their use of "your next shooting phase" in the second sentence of the rule. They understand that using "the shooting phase" refers to either players shooting phase and so made sure that the ability would last until your next shooting phase with the wording in the second sentence, regardless of when the ability was used.
Of course the alternative is that GW rules team is terrible and they should fire their rules editor for letting this slip through when they literally needed to change a single word to make the RAW match up with their intention.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.
Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.
That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.
That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.
He also can’t pop smoke, but hey, who cares here when we are all just making up rules? Love and let live aye buddy.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.
That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.
He also can’t pop smoke, but hey, who cares here when we are all just making up rules? Love and let live aye buddy.
You say he can't, but so far the only thing anyone's managed to come up with for why he isn't able to is "Look at the Context!"
The irony is that the whole concept of "Context" requires you to extrapolate outside of what's written, like, that's the whole point of referring to context.
So, quite literally, "Context" cannot be "Rules as Written" because the whole purpose is to understand something that isn't written.
This seems like some extremely shady back breaking rules lawyering to argue for this, and all its going to do is piss your opponent off for a very minor gain. Very much WAAC mentality for this 1. Will echo some others, there is no information on ordering of activating it. In your shooting phase the activation is clear because its when you nominate the unit.
However in your opponents phase, there isn't a step that gives you the ability to act. Stratagems are reactionary, requiring your opponent to target something, there is nothing keying you into an activation time. "shooting phase" is far to vague, never mind the shadiness of your argument combining 3 different FAQs to reach a conclusion that isn't ever specifically talked about in the FAQ. I can safely say if you were my opponent and you claimed smoke I would laugh you out of the room. But hey if you don't care about your opponent or want to argue with a tourney judge for 15 min go for it. Can't stand WAAC mentality.
After reading the topic I agree that we're able to use Smoke Launchers in the opponent's Shooting Phase and I disagree that the sequencing rules allow you to push their activation to the end of the phase. It doesn't even seem like a stretch of RAW to do it and I would personally find it difficult to argue that RAI restricts Smoke Launchers to one's own Shooting Phase. The rules are quite clear that 'Shooting Phase' includes both player's phases.
The only reason it feels a bit odd to me is the precedence of previous editions, which is nothing at all solid to base 8th Edition rules on.
I'll be bringing this up with my group for discussion because it isn't something we've picked up on before.
The rules for the Shoot Phase state: 1. Choose Unit to Shoot With: In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons.
The rules for Smoke Launchers state: Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.
You are not allowed to shoot weapons during your opponent's Shooting Phase. You therefore cannot use your Smoke Launchers instead of shooting in your opponents' Shooting Phase. As some have noted about context, the FAQ ruling on Smoke Launchers is not relevant in regards to your opponent's Shooting phase. It allows you to use them during your shooting phase even if there is a condition that would prevent you from shooting then.
The rules for the Shoot Phase state: 1. Choose Unit to Shoot With: In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons.
The rules for Smoke Launchers state: Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.
You are not allowed to shoot weapons during your opponent's Shooting Phase. You therefore cannot use your Smoke Launchers instead of shooting in your opponents' Shooting Phase. As some have noted about context, the FAQ ruling on Smoke Launchers is not relevant in regards to your opponent's Shooting phase. It allows you to use them during your shooting phase even if there is a condition that would prevent you from shooting then.
No one wants to shoot in the opponents shooting phase. Using an ability is not the same as shooting. FAQs confirm you can use abilities in any players phase, if it doesnt specify "friendly" or "enemy". FAQs also confirm that you can use an ability (it literally says smoke launchers) if you cannot shoot, and you cant shoot in the opponents shooting phase.
Rules change over time, get over it. House rule it, dont use it. Doesnt change the fact that its legal to use smoke launcher in the opponents shooting phase now.
Going purely RAW, this is sadly possible (although I'd never try it on anyone)
Seems to be the typical poorly written rules getting hammered as new FAQ's come out and they didn't think about interactions.
Ironically, how do you resolve an ability that has no trigger or sequence?
While we know it's activated in the shooting phase, we aren't told when this happens.
Generally, if there are no clear cut times for these things to happen, it falls to the player who's turn it is to decide.
When is "instead of shooting in the shooting phase"?
Logically, this must be after being selected as the unit to shoot with, as this is (normally) the only time in which a unit can shoot.
If this is true, then the unit cannot pop smoke in the enemy shooting phase, as it cannot be selected to shoot and so cannot do something instead.
If this is not true, then you are faced by this issue:
"A unit may not be selected to shot more than once"
so if you don't have to select a unit to shoot with first, then you can pop smoke in your shooting phase, then select the unit to shoot, which allows you to shoot, as the only restriction is that it cannot be selected again.
Alternatively, you do this in place of shooting, and the only time you are eligible to do so is when the turn sequence calls your model to shoot; whether it can shoot or not is irrelevant to popping smoke. Thus, can only do so "in place of shooting" in your own shooting phase.
Side Question: is "interceptor" still a thing, and if so, can a unit choose to pop smoke instead of shoot for interceptor fire?
Just emailed GW rules team for a clarification. In b4 “they always say different things” or “it doesn’t make it fact, what he said makes it fact” honestly imma listen to GW over a rules bending attempted “player” (if one can be called such) any day, and if they come back with it can’t happen then his arguemet is invalid 110%. If they come back you can, I’ll admit I’m wrong. In b4 “but the rulz say dis please let me do it” nah fam. Get out of here.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Just emailed GW rules team for a clarification. In b4 “they always say different things” or “it doesn’t make it fact, what he said makes it fact” honestly imma listen to GW over a rules bending attempted “player” (if one can be called such) any day, and if they come back with it can’t happen then his arguemet is invalid 110%. If they come back you can, I’ll admit I’m wrong. In b4 “but the rulz say dis please let me do it” nah fam. Get out of here.
1) <Joke>I already emailed GW and they said "BaconCatBug is the final arbiter of any rules discussion." Since you will "listen to GW", therefore you must listen to me. Q.E.D. </Joke>
2) I actually did email GW before, they send back a boilerplate email with a bunch of steps to resolve rules issue, of which number 4 states: ""4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Even if you don't like the outcome, apply the RaW. This is straight out of GWs mouth, thus proving RaW = RaI.
This edge rule lawyer BS is still going on no wonder people give up playing when people try pulling this BS.
You still haven't explained what explicitly gives you permission to activite the ability in your opponents phase as you by BRB don't have permission to activate your units in your opponents turn and they don't have permission to activate your units in their turn.
You still can't actually point to a rule that allows you to select the unit to activate the ability, Continue on with your but X+A+F doesn't say I can't, does not equal explicit permission.
Precedent set by strategums and abilities intended to function in the enemy turn/phase call out a specific activation point, this defines the activation point in time and hence prevents sequencing being used to shift the ability activation to the end of the phase as you haven't shown a RAW reason why you get to interrupt your opponents phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: This is straight out of GWs mouth, thus proving RaW = RaI.
Which is all well and good, except YMDC is full of threads in which players vehemently disagree on how a particular RaW is to be read/interpreted.
I'm kinda surprised this thread keeps going considering it was solved a few pages ago. Rather than continue to discuss whether Smoke can or cannot be used in an opponent's turn, if we jump to the assumption that it can be used, it immediately gets shut down via Sequencing (because no smart opponent will let you use smoke before they resolve their shooting). So why are we still discussing if Smoke can be used when we know what the conclusion will be?
Ice_can wrote: This edge rule lawyer BS is still going on no wonder people give up playing when people try pulling this BS.
You still haven't explained what explicitly gives you permission to activite the ability in your opponents phase as you by BRB don't have permission to activate your units in your opponents turn and they don't have permission to activate your units in their turn.
You still can't actually point to a rule that allows you to select the unit to activate the ability, Continue on with your but X+A+F doesn't say I can't, does not equal explicit permission.
Precedent set by strategums and abilities intended to function in the enemy turn/phase call out a specific activation point, this defines the activation point in time and hence prevents sequencing being used to shift the ability activation to the end of the phase as you haven't shown a RAW reason why you get to interrupt your opponents phase.
Sadly, he has.
Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.
While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.
Jackal90 wrote: Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase. It however does not state which. Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.
While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.
Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it? Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing. I think I'll choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke if they still want to (why tho?)
Jackal90 wrote: Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.
While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.
Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it?
Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing.
I think I choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke fi they still want to
-
I completely agree and I'll be doing the same.
But the topic of the thread is in regards to if it's possible, not how to counter it.
While it is indeed possible, any smart player will let it fire off at the end of their shooting.
The best part?
They declared they are using it and it's single use.
It essentially does nothing and it's wasted.
If someone tries that with me they better not hope to get the smoke back after declaring they used it lol.
Jackal90 wrote: Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.
While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.
Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it?
Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing.
I think I choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke fi they still want to
-
This pretty much closes the whole thread.
My action: Shoot your tank. Dead tank.
Your action: ...
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.
You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.
How this would play out in any other game system's rules forums: Abilities that are specified to happen in The Shooting Phase mean your Shooting Phase, not the other player's. We have historical proof of this, and you came here to discuss the rules so we've given you that information. So, no, you can't pop smoke during your opponent's shooting phase.
40k rules forums: This thread, where someone claims that "Rules As Written" ignores context.
solkan wrote: How this would play out in any other game system's rules forums: Abilities that are specified to happen in The Shooting Phase mean your Shooting Phase, not the other player's. We have historical proof of this, and you came here to discuss the rules so we've given you that information. So, no, you can't pop smoke during your opponent's shooting phase.
40k rules forums: This thread, where someone claims that "Rules As Written" ignores context.
You have permission to use Smoke Launchers in the shooting phase. Not your shooting phase, the shooting phase.
You cannot shoot in your opponent's shooting phase-however, it was FAQed to allow you to use abilities "instead of shooting" even when you CANNOT shoot.
The RAW is dumb, I agree. But the solution is not to lie and say RAW actually works, it's to get GW to make better RAW.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.
You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.
You could actually do this for each separate unit popping Smoke, if we assume Smoke is used unit-by-unit (which we should be assuming this, rather than allowing ALL Smoke to be popped at once)
So my unit A is chosen to shoot and targets opponent unit X. Unit X declares Smoke in response. Via Sequencing, I choose to resolve unit A's shooting, then allow unit X to pop smoke (if it's still alive). Now I select unit B to shoot and target opponent unit Y. Same thing, my shooting goes first. My unit C vs opponent unit Z, etc
Rinse and Repeat until all units have shot/declared smoke. So long as I do not continue to target units X,Y,Z, the opponent gains not benefit from using Smoke, other than to deter further shooting, which could certainly be a benefit. However, in many case, it only takes 1 unit to kill/cripple a Vehicle and -1 to hit can be mitigated by many things such as Auto-hit weapons, rerolls, or just volume of shots.
So at the end of the day, if an opponent is ADAMAENT that they will be using Smoke is my turn, I won't argue and just proceed to kill those tanks anyway.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.
I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.
Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.
You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.
I still see the rules lawyer's are failing to provide rulea that show when they get to activate their rules, as they are only confined to the shooting phase.
It's my shooting phase in my turn so yes all of the actions in my shooting phase are at the sequencing discretion of the player qho's turn it is.
p5freak wrote: Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.
So when does it happen then?
Exactly, cause so far he is saying sequencing doesn’t happen so we can’t choose to shoot everything first, but he can choose to pop smoke first.. that’s sequencing.. and they can’t happen at the same time. Everything in 40k happens in “steps”
p5freak wrote: Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.
How do you know? If he pops smoke because you're shooting at his unit, he certainly isn't popping it before he's targeted.
Assuming it's Player A's turn. If Player A targeted Player B's Rhino, and Player B wanted to pop smoke in response, Player A could decide that his shooting happens first because those two things would be happening at the same time.
However, Player B could use his Smoke Launchers at the start of The Shooting Phase and Player A could not decide to shoot first because activating his units to shoot with would be a separate action and would not occur at the same time.
p5freak wrote: Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.
So when does it happen then?
Exactly, cause so far he is saying sequencing doesn’t happen so we can’t choose to shoot everything first, but he can choose to pop smoke first.. that’s sequencing.. and they can’t happen at the same time. Everything in 40k happens in “steps”
That's exactly where I was going with that bud.
He says sequencing doesn't exist but then created his own sequence of events.
p5freak wrote: Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.
How do you know? If he pops smoke because you're shooting at his unit, he certainly isn't popping it before he's targeted.
Assuming it's Player A's turn. If Player A targeted Player B's Rhino, and Player B wanted to pop smoke in response, Player A could decide that his shooting happens first because those two things would be happening at the same time.
However, Player B could use his Smoke Launchers at the start of The Shooting Phase and Player A could not decide to shoot first because activating his units to shoot with would be a separate action and would not occur at the same time.
Please can you provide the RAW that Player B's activities take place before Player A's selection of unit etc, repeate, it's still within the shooting phase, as the smokelauncher doesn't state it is a start of phase event, as RAI it's ment to replace the unit shooting in the owning players turn.
The irony is that the whole concept of "Context" requires you to extrapolate outside of what's written, like, that's the whole point of referring to context.
So, quite literally, "Context" cannot be "Rules as Written" because the whole purpose is to understand something that isn't written.
This is not actually true. Written words have no meaning unless you read them in context. So context absolutely is a part of RAW.
That doesn't make just saying 'But context!' a rules argument, of course - the context you're trying to apply obviously has to fit with what is written. But what it does do is give you a framework to hang the words off when a given statement isn't clear on its own.
However, after five pages, this topic would seem to have covered any possible ground here. As always, if in doubt, discuss it with your opponent.
Smoke launchers doesnt say you have to use it at the start of the shooting phase 
