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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Short answer, yes you can. Explanation below :

Smoke launchers
Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.


Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’
phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such
phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect
‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.


Smoke launchers are an ability, and it doesnt say friendly, or enemy phase. This confirms that you can use smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase.

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.


This confirms that it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to. You cannot shoot in your opponents shooting phase, but you can use smoke launchers.

As a bonus, say you use smoke launcher after your opponent declared your smoke launcher unit as a target Smoke launchers doesnt say you have to use it at the start of the shooting phase
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Short answer, yes you can. Explanation below :

Smoke launchers
Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase,



Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Sounds like an obvious RAW oversight, looking for edgy rules anomalies that would get a disapproving look from the other player.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I think you're right that by RAW you can use Smoke Launchers in the enemy phase. I am also convinced it is not intended and would never try to pull that trick in a game.

My main reasoning is that Smoke Launchers are intended to be a strategic decision to give up offense for defense. Using it in your opponent's turn takes that away. It would always be preferable (except in extreme edge cases) to use Smoke Launchers in your opponent's turn.

That being the case, the deal is sealed for me in that no GW employee has ever used Smoke Launchers like that in any report or streamed battle. If they thought they could, they absolutely would as it is almost strictly better.

So yeah, neat catch but please don't ever try to use it in a game! Email the FAQ address maybe.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

DeathReaper wrote:
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.


I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.



   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

We have reached peak ‘stapling together of rules to claim something is RAW’.

Of course you can’t do this, but have fun tilting at that windmill.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We have reached peak ‘stapling together of rules to claim something is RAW’.

Of course you can’t do this, but have fun tilting at that windmill.


I have provided rules and FAQ citation to support my argument. Please do the same to explain why i cant do this.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

No. Because we haven’t miraculously been playing this wrong since 2017. You’ve done very well, great spot... now accept no one plays it this way and that’s not what the FAQ means.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. Because we haven’t miraculously been playing this wrong since 2017. You’ve done very well, great spot... now accept no one plays it this way and that’s not what the FAQ means.


True, it wasnt possible to play it like this since 2017. GW enabled it with the release of their FAQs. Its legal now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/04 11:11:16


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.


I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.





That has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I read your entire post. it is off base.

The context of the rule is that you need to give up shooting. You can not do that in the enemy phase.

Do not ignore the context of the rule. Only if you ignore the context can you use this in your opponents shooting phase...


P.S. "Cannot shoot or it chooses not to." Means that it must be your shooting phase as that is the only time a unit Cannot shoot, or can choose not to.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/04 11:31:53


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Noone can disprove you, good job. Nobody needs to disprove you.


We know it wasn't intended.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Noone can disprove you, good job. Nobody needs to disprove you.


We know it wasn't intended.
Except I have disproved him...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Except this would dis-allow using the Smoke launchers in your enemies phase, as you have to use it "instead of shooting any weapons" and you cant shoot in your opponents phase.


I suggest you read my entire post. This allows the use of smoke launchers, even if you cannot shoot.

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.





That has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I read your entire post. it is off base.

The context of the rule is that you need to give up shooting. You can not do that in the enemy phase.


Wrong. The FAQ doesnt say you have to give up shooting. You can use smoke launcher if you cannot shoot. The reason why you cannot shoot is irrelevant.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Noone can disprove you, good job. Nobody needs to disprove you.


We know it wasn't intended.
Except I have disproved him...


No, you actually haven't. The answer in the FAQ clearly states that it can use the smoke launchers even if the model can't actually shoot. The Rhino can NOT shoot in the opponent's shooting phase, therefor it can still use its' smoke launchers. RAW (including the FAQ) shows that you can -in fact- use smoke launchers in your opponent's shooting phase.

That being said, it's clearly NOT intended, and yet an oversight GW has made. I will never do it and I would never let any opponent do it, and it will never be allowed in a tournament. I do like these kinds of extreme loopholes and fringe cases, even if they never will be allowed. Did you for example know that pistols can't be shot in CC, if you look strictly at RAW?

Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Good luck actually trying this against someone.
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






BRB Shooting Phase:
1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.

If you can't select one of your units to shoot with in the enemy shooting phase, you can't use an ability that is used instead of shooting.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 Valkyrie wrote:
Good luck actually trying this against someone.


Yeah, but that's something completely different. Just like pistols and CC.

Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I thought we had all agreed that we were going to start tagging things ""Exploit" for things that we know are not the intention of the rule, but where the RAW got messed up enough that it allows for us to do the unintended thing.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Exploit edge rules lawyering aside, which FAQ gives you permission to select your unit to be able to select the ability in the opponents turn?

Were is the permission to use an ability of a model in the enemy phase when you can't select that unit?
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Ice_can wrote:
Exploit edge rules lawyering aside, which FAQ gives you permission to select your unit to be able to select the ability in the opponents turn?

Were is the permission to use an ability of a model in the enemy phase when you can't select that unit?


The smoke launcher rule says I can use it in the shooting phase.
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 p5freak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Exploit edge rules lawyering aside, which FAQ gives you permission to select your unit to be able to select the ability in the opponents turn?

Were is the permission to use an ability of a model in the enemy phase when you can't select that unit?


The smoke launcher rule says I can use it in the shooting phase.

Yes, but you can't select one of your units in the enemy shooting phase (see my rule blurb above).
So you already failt at point 1. of the Shooting Phase sequence.
And I'm not sure how you think you can skip this step to even get to "use ability instead of shooting".
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






As per rule of permissive rule set, where does it tell you explicitly and specifically that you CAN use your smoke launcher during your opponent's shooting phase?

"It doesn't tell me I can't" is not a valid reasoning for an argument in permissive rule set.
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 skchsan wrote:
As per rule of permissive rule set, where does it tell you explicitly and specifically that you CAN use your smoke launcher during your opponent's shooting phase?

"It doesn't tell me I can't" is not a valid reasoning for an argument in permissive rule set.

No, this is wrong. It clearly says you can use it in the Shooting Phase (so both yours and the enemies).
He's right with this.

But you can't select one of your units to shoot with in the enemy shooting phase, you have no valid unit that can use the ability.
   
Made in fr
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






Yes you are right you can.

But if you pulled this trick on me in a game I would say thank and good night and pack away my things and just wouldn't play you again.

5500
2500 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/04 15:03:49


   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 Galef wrote:
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").

They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hanskrampf wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.


Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/04 15:14:16


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Spoiler:
 Galef wrote:
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.
The takeaway from my post should have been that even if you found a way to choose one of your units, it would NOT matter.
Because then you would have a Sequencing issue, in which the player whose turn it is (your opponent) would get to choose what gets resolved first.

Someone will find a way to say they can choose their units to use Smoke, because the FAQs say you can use them. So rather than support/refute that, I found it easier just to shoot down its relevance.
Case in point:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?

This is actually a good point. Smoke is an ability, which doesn't require selecting the unit to use, as otherwise loads of abilities would not work.
But it does require "activation" unlike passive abilities. And that "activation" can be up to the player whose turn it is.

So I would resolve all my shooting first, then allow my opponent to pop Smoke if they still want to.

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/04 15:19:06


   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").

They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hanskrampf wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.


Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?


"Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers".

And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.

"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:

This is actually a good point. Smoke is an ability, which doesn't require selecting the unit to use, as otherwise loads of abilities would not work.
But again, it does require "activation" unlike passive abilities. And that "activation" can be up to the player whose turn it is.

So I would resolve all my shooting first, then allow my opponent to pop Smoke if they still want to.

-


No, it's not a good point. Otherwise, you opponent can activate the smoke launcher on your vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/04 15:20:10


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Spoiler:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The smoke launcher rule should never have made it to print with the wording "the shooting phase" if it were not meant to be used in either players phase. If that was their intention then this is another great example of GW's rules writing being utter rubbish, it is literally a one word sub (switch "the" with "your").

They even use "your next shooting phase" later in the rule, for goodness sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hanskrampf wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Not to add fuel to this dumpster fire, but the rules for Smoke launchers does say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in THE Shooting phase, this model can use it's smoke launchers...."

It doesn't say YOUR Shooting phase, so permission could be said to be given.
The only problem is "when" can you do this? I would argue that since it is your opponents turn, per Sequencing, they can choose the order in which this is resolved.
Ergo, they choose to resolve ALL their shooting first, then allow you to pop your Smoke Launchers

So while you can certainly argue that you can 100% use Smoke Launchers in your opponents turn, what would be the point?

Having said that, I would be fine if GW FAQ'd this to be allowed (before your opponent's shooting) because it's a once per game ability that right now is pretty useless because it stops you from shooting in your turn. If Smoke gave you -1 to hit instead, Smoke would be useful.
But giving up your shooting entirely to give a -1 to your opponent is NOT a fair trade.

-

How would you be able to select one of your units in the enemy Shooting Phase?
Step 1 of the Shooting Phase sequence defines that it has to be your Shooting Phase to select one of your units to shoot with.


Where in the rules for smoke launchers does it state that you must select the model to shoot with in order to activate the ability?


"Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers".

And before you can shoot (or substitute shooting) you need to select a viable unit.

"1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot
with models armed with ranged weapons.
First, you must pick one of your units
to shoot with."
Why does this matter? I've shown that due to Sequencing, you can resolve you Shooting before your opponent has a chance to use Smoke.

-

   
 
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