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Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Pakman184 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.

That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.

He also can’t pop smoke, but hey, who cares here when we are all just making up rules? Love and let live aye buddy.

You say he can't, but so far the only thing anyone's managed to come up with for why he isn't able to is "Look at the Context!"

 JNAProductions wrote:
Context is RAI. Not RAW.

False.

 DeathReaper wrote:
False.

Simply saying words doesn't make them true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Context is RAI. Not RAW.

False.

The irony is that the whole concept of "Context" requires you to extrapolate outside of what's written, like, that's the whole point of referring to context.

So, quite literally, "Context" cannot be "Rules as Written" because the whole purpose is to understand something that isn't written.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
False.

Simply saying words doesn't make them true.

Ignoring the context does not make what you claim magically correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
False.

Simply saying words doesn't make them true.

Ignoring the context does not make what you claim magically correct.

Did you miss the parts where I say I agree with the RAI interpretation?

But RAW is borked. RAW does not match RAI. That's a problem, and GW has it far too often.

This seems like some extremely shady back breaking rules lawyering to argue for this, and all its going to do is piss your opponent off for a very minor gain. Very much WAAC mentality for this 1. Will echo some others, there is no information on ordering of activating it. In your shooting phase the activation is clear because its when you nominate the unit.

However in your opponents phase, there isn't a step that gives you the ability to act. Stratagems are reactionary, requiring your opponent to target something, there is nothing keying you into an activation time. "shooting phase" is far to vague, never mind the shadiness of your argument combining 3 different FAQs to reach a conclusion that isn't ever specifically talked about in the FAQ. I can safely say if you were my opponent and you claimed smoke I would laugh you out of the room. But hey if you don't care about your opponent or want to argue with a tourney judge for 15 min go for it. Can't stand WAAC mentality.

After reading the topic I agree that we're able to use Smoke Launchers in the opponent's Shooting Phase and I disagree that the sequencing rules allow you to push their activation to the end of the phase. It doesn't even seem like a stretch of RAW to do it and I would personally find it difficult to argue that RAI restricts Smoke Launchers to one's own Shooting Phase. The rules are quite clear that 'Shooting Phase' includes both player's phases.

The only reason it feels a bit odd to me is the precedence of previous editions, which is nothing at all solid to base 8th Edition rules on.

I'll be bringing this up with my group for discussion because it isn't something we've picked up on before.

We have two rules here:

The rules for the Shoot Phase state: 1. Choose Unit to Shoot With: In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons.

The rules for Smoke Launchers state: Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.

You are not allowed to shoot weapons during your opponent's Shooting Phase. You therefore cannot use your Smoke Launchers instead of shooting in your opponents' Shooting Phase. As some have noted about context, the FAQ ruling on Smoke Launchers is not relevant in regards to your opponent's Shooting phase. It allows you to use them during your shooting phase even if there is a condition that would prevent you from shooting then.

 alextroy wrote:
We have two rules here:

The rules for the Shoot Phase state: 1. Choose Unit to Shoot With: In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons.

The rules for Smoke Launchers state: Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, the vehicle can use its Smoke Launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this vehicle.

You are not allowed to shoot weapons during your opponent's Shooting Phase. You therefore cannot use your Smoke Launchers instead of shooting in your opponents' Shooting Phase. As some have noted about context, the FAQ ruling on Smoke Launchers is not relevant in regards to your opponent's Shooting phase. It allows you to use them during your shooting phase even if there is a condition that would prevent you from shooting then.

No one wants to shoot in the opponents shooting phase. Using an ability is not the same as shooting. FAQs confirm you can use abilities in any players phase, if it doesnt specify "friendly" or "enemy". FAQs also confirm that you can use an ability (it literally says smoke launchers) if you cannot shoot, and you cant shoot in the opponents shooting phase.

Rules change over time, get over it. House rule it, dont use it. Doesnt change the fact that its legal to use smoke launcher in the opponents shooting phase now.

Going purely RAW, this is sadly possible (although I'd never try it on anyone)
Seems to be the typical poorly written rules getting hammered as new FAQ's come out and they didn't think about interactions.



Ironically, how do you resolve an ability that has no trigger or sequence?
While we know it's activated in the shooting phase, we aren't told when this happens.
Generally, if there are no clear cut times for these things to happen, it falls to the player who's turn it is to decide.

I think the issue here is this:

When is "instead of shooting in the shooting phase"?

Logically, this must be after being selected as the unit to shoot with, as this is (normally) the only time in which a unit can shoot.

If this is true, then the unit cannot pop smoke in the enemy shooting phase, as it cannot be selected to shoot and so cannot do something instead.

If this is not true, then you are faced by this issue:

"A unit may not be selected to shot more than once"

so if you don't have to select a unit to shoot with first, then you can pop smoke in your shooting phase, then select the unit to shoot, which allows you to shoot, as the only restriction is that it cannot be selected again.

Alternatively, you do this in place of shooting, and the only time you are eligible to do so is when the turn sequence calls your model to shoot; whether it can shoot or not is irrelevant to popping smoke. Thus, can only do so "in place of shooting" in your own shooting phase.


Side Question: is "interceptor" still a thing, and if so, can a unit choose to pop smoke instead of shoot for interceptor fire?

Just emailed GW rules team for a clarification. In b4 “they always say different things” or “it doesn’t make it fact, what he said makes it fact” honestly imma listen to GW over a rules bending attempted “player” (if one can be called such) any day, and if they come back with it can’t happen then his arguemet is invalid 110%. If they come back you can, I’ll admit I’m wrong. In b4 “but the rulz say dis please let me do it” nah fam. Get out of here.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Just emailed GW rules team for a clarification. In b4 “they always say different things” or “it doesn’t make it fact, what he said makes it fact” honestly imma listen to GW over a rules bending attempted “player” (if one can be called such) any day, and if they come back with it can’t happen then his arguemet is invalid 110%. If they come back you can, I’ll admit I’m wrong. In b4 “but the rulz say dis please let me do it” nah fam. Get out of here.

1) <Joke>I already emailed GW and they said "BaconCatBug is the final arbiter of any rules discussion." Since you will "listen to GW", therefore you must listen to me. Q.E.D. </Joke>

2) I actually did email GW before, they send back a boilerplate email with a bunch of steps to resolve rules issue, of which number 4 states: ""4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."

Even if you don't like the outcome, apply the RaW. This is straight out of GWs mouth, thus proving RaW = RaI.

This edge rule lawyer BS is still going on no wonder people give up playing when people try pulling this BS.

You still haven't explained what explicitly gives you permission to activite the ability in your opponents phase as you by BRB don't have permission to activate your units in your opponents turn and they don't have permission to activate your units in their turn.

You still can't actually point to a rule that allows you to select the unit to activate the ability, Continue on with your but X+A+F doesn't say I can't, does not equal explicit permission.
Precedent set by strategums and abilities intended to function in the enemy turn/phase call out a specific activation point, this defines the activation point in time and hence prevents sequencing being used to shift the ability activation to the end of the phase as you haven't shown a RAW reason why you get to interrupt your opponents phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is straight out of GWs mouth, thus proving RaW = RaI.

Which is all well and good, except YMDC is full of threads in which players vehemently disagree on how a particular RaW is to be read/interpreted.

I'm kinda surprised this thread keeps going considering it was solved a few pages ago. Rather than continue to discuss whether Smoke can or cannot be used in an opponent's turn, if we jump to the assumption that it can be used, it immediately gets shut down via Sequencing (because no smart opponent will let you use smoke before they resolve their shooting).
So why are we still discussing if Smoke can be used when we know what the conclusion will be?

-

Ice_can wrote:
This edge rule lawyer BS is still going on no wonder people give up playing when people try pulling this BS.

You still haven't explained what explicitly gives you permission to activite the ability in your opponents phase as you by BRB don't have permission to activate your units in your opponents turn and they don't have permission to activate your units in their turn.

You still can't actually point to a rule that allows you to select the unit to activate the ability, Continue on with your but X+A+F doesn't say I can't, does not equal explicit permission.
Precedent set by strategums and abilities intended to function in the enemy turn/phase call out a specific activation point, this defines the activation point in time and hence prevents sequencing being used to shift the ability activation to the end of the phase as you haven't shown a RAW reason why you get to interrupt your opponents phase.

Sadly, he has.
Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.

While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.

Jackal90 wrote:
Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.

While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.

Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it?
Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing.
I think I'll choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke if they still want to (why tho?)

-

 Galef wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.

While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.

Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it?
Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing.
I think I choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke fi they still want to

-

I completely agree and I'll be doing the same.
But the topic of the thread is in regards to if it's possible, not how to counter it.

While it is indeed possible, any smart player will let it fire off at the end of their shooting.
The best part?
They declared they are using it and it's single use.
It essentially does nothing and it's wasted.

If someone tries that with me they better not hope to get the smoke back after declaring they used it lol.

 Galef wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Smoke launchers state they are activated in the shooting phase.
It however does not state which.
Due to the way this works, it's left useable in either.

While I agree it's complete BS, RAW, this is indeed possible.

Cool, an opponent can use smoke in my Shooting phase. When can they use it?
Doesn't matter, it's my turn and if we are both selecting units to do stuff, I get to pick what is resolved first via Sequencing.
I think I choose to resolve all my shooting first and then the opponent can use their Smoke fi they still want to

-

This pretty much closes the whole thread.

My action: Shoot your tank. Dead tank.
Your action: ...

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.

You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.

How this would play out in any other game system's rules forums: Abilities that are specified to happen in The Shooting Phase mean your Shooting Phase, not the other player's. We have historical proof of this, and you came here to discuss the rules so we've given you that information. So, no, you can't pop smoke during your opponent's shooting phase.

40k rules forums: This thread, where someone claims that "Rules As Written" ignores context.

 solkan wrote:
How this would play out in any other game system's rules forums: Abilities that are specified to happen in The Shooting Phase mean your Shooting Phase, not the other player's. We have historical proof of this, and you came here to discuss the rules so we've given you that information. So, no, you can't pop smoke during your opponent's shooting phase.

40k rules forums: This thread, where someone claims that "Rules As Written" ignores context.

You have permission to use Smoke Launchers in the shooting phase. Not your shooting phase, the shooting phase.

You cannot shoot in your opponent's shooting phase-however, it was FAQed to allow you to use abilities "instead of shooting" even when you CANNOT shoot.

The RAW is dumb, I agree. But the solution is not to lie and say RAW actually works, it's to get GW to make better RAW.

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.

You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.

You could actually do this for each separate unit popping Smoke, if we assume Smoke is used unit-by-unit (which we should be assuming this, rather than allowing ALL Smoke to be popped at once)

So my unit A is chosen to shoot and targets opponent unit X. Unit X declares Smoke in response. Via Sequencing, I choose to resolve unit A's shooting, then allow unit X to pop smoke (if it's still alive).
Now I select unit B to shoot and target opponent unit Y. Same thing, my shooting goes first.
My unit C vs opponent unit Z, etc

Rinse and Repeat until all units have shot/declared smoke. So long as I do not continue to target units X,Y,Z, the opponent gains not benefit from using Smoke, other than to deter further shooting, which could certainly be a benefit.
However, in many case, it only takes 1 unit to kill/cripple a Vehicle and -1 to hit can be mitigated by many things such as Auto-hit weapons, rerolls, or just volume of shots.

So at the end of the day, if an opponent is ADAMAENT that they will be using Smoke is my turn, I won't argue and just proceed to kill those tanks anyway.

-

Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.

You can certainly use it for at least the first unit shooting at the time he announces he's popping smoke.

I still see the rules lawyer's are failing to provide rulea that show when they get to activate their rules, as they are only confined to the shooting phase.

It's my shooting phase in my turn so yes all of the actions in my shooting phase are at the sequencing discretion of the player qho's turn it is.

 p5freak wrote:
Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.

So when does it happen then?

Jackal90 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.

So when does it happen then?

Exactly, cause so far he is saying sequencing doesn’t happen so we can’t choose to shoot everything first, but he can choose to pop smoke first.. that’s sequencing.. and they can’t happen at the same time. Everything in 40k happens in “steps”

 p5freak wrote:
Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.

How do you know? If he pops smoke because you're shooting at his unit, he certainly isn't popping it before he's targeted.

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Sequencing doesnt apply, its not happening at the same time.

How do you know? If he pops smoke because you're shooting at his unit, he certainly isn't popping it before he's targeted.

Assuming it's Player A's turn. If Player A targeted Player B's Rhino, and Player B wanted to pop smoke in response, Player A could decide that his shooting happens first because those two things would be happening at the same time.

However, Player B could use his Smoke Launchers at the start of The Shooting Phase and Player A could not decide to shoot first because activating his units to shoot with would be a separate action and would not occur at the same time.