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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:


How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.

You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.

In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.

So, if they intended it to be only your shooting phase, why didn't they say "in your shooting phase"?

 JNAProductions wrote:
This looks like RAW. Good find-another for BCB's list, I'd imagine.

But yeah, it's pretty clear that it's not MEANT to work that way, and virtually no one would play with that ruling.

How do you know that its not meant to work that way ? How do you, or anyone else who claims its not intended, know GWs intention ? No one, except GWs rules team, knows their intent. Are you a member of GWs rules team ?

 DeathReaper wrote:

They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).

Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"

So RAW what I have said is correct.

You are wrong.

Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’
phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such
phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect
‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

Smoke launcher doesnt say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
This looks like RAW. Good find-another for BCB's list, I'd imagine.

But yeah, it's pretty clear that it's not MEANT to work that way, and virtually no one would play with that ruling.

How do you know that its not meant to work that way ? How do you, or anyone else who claims its not intended, know GWs intention ? No one, except GWs rules team, knows their intent. Are you a member of GWs rules team ?

How do you know I'm not?

In all seriousness, don't be a second BCB. One is quite enough. While we cannot know WITH CERTAINTY what the RAI is, we can make educated guesses. If you can find me some TOs that would listen to RAW, let me know, but for now, I'll stick to using Smoke Launchers in only my own phase. It's not RAW, but it makes the game work better.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, if they intended it to be only your shooting phase, why didn't they say "in your shooting phase"?

I do not think anyone here can answer that for you, you will have to ask the people that wrote the rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).

Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"

So RAW what I have said is correct.

You are wrong.

Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

Smoke launcher doesnt[sic] say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt[sic] work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.

I am not wrong. It still does not work in the enemy shooting phase.

Your argument ignores the context of the rules. The rules for Smoke launchers do not allow it. Smoke launchers rules say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" this means, in context, your shooting phase, aka the friendly shooting phase.

Therefore the Smoke launcher rule does say that it only works in the friendly phase, because of the context on which the rule is written.

You are seriously lacking in rules to back up your argument, DeathReaper. Repeating a false statement doesn't make it any truer.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, if they intended it to be only your shooting phase, why didn't they say "in your shooting phase"?

I do not think anyone here can answer that for you, you will have to ask the people that wrote the rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
They are talking about " instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules).

Taken in context that absolutely means "your shooting phase"

So RAW what I have said is correct.

You are wrong.

Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

Smoke launcher doesnt[sic] say ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase. Therefore it can be used in any players shooting phase. You have to accept that rules change over time. Smoke launcher didnt[sic] work in the opponents shooting phase until GW released this. Now it does.

I am not wrong. It still does not work in the enemy shooting phase.

Your argument ignores the context of the rules. The rules for Smoke launchers do not allow it. Smoke launchers rules say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" this means, in context, your shooting phase, aka the friendly shooting phase.

Therefore the Smoke launcher rule does say that it only works in the friendly phase, because of the context on which the rule is written.

A logical deduction is made using given premises (RAW). Context is used to make logical inferences using given context (RAI).

A logical deduction can infer to multiple contents or meaning. Context is then used to determine what is being conveyed via inferences.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:


How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.

You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.

In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.

You can shoot in your enemies shooting phase in a variety of ways through special rules and stratagems. Within the context of acting in your enemies turn there tons of things that do that so how can you rule out smoke launchers being one of them through context? As far as I can see the context of 40k rules says it's entirely possible for something to work in your enemies phase. It seems to me you are just making a RAI argument and not a RAW one which is fine and more power to you. However you can't deny that the RAW is clear and not be making a RAI argument. If you want to talk about context you need to talk about RAI which is entirely subjective.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You are seriously lacking in rules to back up your argument, DeathReaper. Repeating a false statement doesn't make it any truer.

The reverse is actually true. I have shown how the rules actually work. You are ignoring the context of the rules. You are the ones repeating a false statement because you failed to take the context of the rules into account.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

How do you define proper context? As far as I can see you are inserting your interpretation as to what is the correct context and anyone can do just that and reach an entirely different context thus changing the rule wildly. The rules are clearly written and the FAQs back this. It's stupid writing, but the writing is what it is.

You define proper context by figuring out what they are talking about.

In the Smoke launcher rules, they are talking about "instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase" (from Smoke launcher rules). Which clearly references your turn since you can not shoot weapons in your opponents shooting phase.

You can shoot in your enemies shooting phase in a variety of ways through special rules and stratagems...

But that is not what the Smoke Launcher rules are referring to. To say that it is, is disingenuous.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
However you can't deny that the RAW is clear and not be making a RAI argument. If you want to talk about context you need to talk about RAI which is entirely subjective.

The RAW is clear if you do not ignore the context. The rule is referencing your own turn...

And context is RAW as well, not just RAI.

 skchsan wrote:
A logical deduction is made using given premises (RAW). Context is used to make logical inferences using given context (RAI).

A logical deduction can infer to multiple contents or meaning. Context is then used to determine what is being conveyed via inferences.

Both deduction and inferences are RAW.

"The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else."

(From https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate "The rules don't say I can't!" section)

Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We have reached peak ‘stapling together of rules to claim something is RAW’.

Of course you can’t do this, but have fun tilting at that windmill.

All day this.

Can you shoot in your opponents shooting phase? Does it day you do this instead of shooting?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.

Agreed. This is so clearly and patently not the RAI that in this case the RAW is basically irrelevant.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Honestly, none of them play it the way they’re saying so I don’t know why they’ve chosen to pile on you for internet points, DeathReaper. I’d just leave the thread to peter out. It currently has no utility for anyone who wants to know how to play the game.

Sadly this describes far too many of the threads on YMDC.

As far as the topic is concnerned, I quite like the idea of using the sequencing rules to get around this possible RAW loophole - completely within RAW and neatly sidesteps any issues with any TFGs that try to pull somehting like this.

Threads like this is why I come to YMDC! Great stuff

Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

On the contrary, the rules do very much suggest it. Surely your ‘point’ (such as it is) is that they don’t outright state it?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

On the contrary, the rules do very much suggest it. Surely your ‘point’ (such as it is) is that they don’t outright state it?

Actually, the context of the rules would indicate that you are allowed. Since changing "the shooting phase" to "your shooting phase" would limit the rule to your shooting phase, the deliberate use of "the shooting phase", which does not have that restriction, would indicate there is no restriction nor any intention of that restriction. This is supported by their use of "your next shooting phase" in the second sentence of the rule. They understand that using "the shooting phase" refers to either players shooting phase and so made sure that the ability would last until your next shooting phase with the wording in the second sentence, regardless of when the ability was used.

Of course the alternative is that GW rules team is terrible and they should fire their rules editor for letting this slip through when they literally needed to change a single word to make the RAW match up with their intention.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

There is, re-read my posts and do not ignore the context of the rules.

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Haha so either way he loses

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

There is, re-read my posts and do not ignore the context of the rules.

I am not ignoring the context, you are ignoring the rules.

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. there is nothing in the rules to even suggest this.

There is also nothing in the rules that suggests you must use Smoke Launchers in your own shooting phase.

There is, re-read my posts and do not ignore the context of the rules.

I am not ignoring the context, you are ignoring the rules.

Except you are ignoring the context.

I can't be ignoring the rules. I have references to back my statements up.

You, on the other hand, do not.

Lets ask this and see if we get a straight answer.

Smoke launchers rules say "Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase..."

They mention shooting phase. Are there any clues as to which shooting phase they mean?

It doesn't specify which shooting phase, only that it must be in "the shooting phase".

Your opponent's phase qualifies, per RAW.

Simply quoting a rule doesn't make it say what you want it to say-the very rules you quote work AGAINST your statements.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It doesn't specify which shooting phase, only that it must be in "the shooting phase".

That is not what I asked...

Your opponent's phase qualifies, per RAW.

it does not, because in context it is referring to your shooting phase.

Simply quoting a rule doesn't make it say what you want it to say-the very rules you quote work AGAINST your statements.

Except in this case they validate what I have said as I do not ignore the context of the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It doesn't specify which shooting phase, only that it must be in "the shooting phase".

That is not what I asked...

Your opponent's phase qualifies, per RAW.

it does not, because in context it is referring to your shooting phase.

Simply quoting a rule doesn't make it say what you want it to say-the very rules you quote work AGAINST your statements.

Except in this case they validate what I have said as I do not ignore the context of the rules.

Context is RAI. Not RAW.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try it, no one will let you. You can blubber “but but muh rulz say dis here ting hole loop I found rite hrrr” all you want. No one will care. No one will remember your loop. No one will let it happen. And no one will listen to you. Congratulations, you wasted your time, my time, and everyone else’s time. We can move along now.

I would let him. Technically, from the statements presented he can use it in the opponent's shooting phase by RAW. Then again, I would use Galef's solution - I would use sequencing to resolve all my shots and then have the smoke go off after I was done shooting, burning his one chance during the game for that unit to use smoke without getting anything to show for it. Sequencing is also well established RAW. He'd go back to the RAI interpretation of just using the smoke launchers during his turn after getting burned that way once or twice.

Sequencing only works when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. This doesnt apply to using smoke launchers in the opponents shooting phase. All my opponents shooting is not happening at the same time. He cant use sequencing for all his shooting.

Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.

That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.

Pakman184 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Sorry bud, I use all my shooting, my rules for shooting etc before you get to do a dang thing. Just how the cookie crumbles. Waste it after my shooting, I’ll shake your hand for an easy win.

That's not really how it works though. You only apply sequencing to things that happen at the same time, which isn't how the Shooting Phase works.

He also can’t pop smoke, but hey, who cares here when we are all just making up rules? Love and let live aye buddy.