Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

Biggest tournaments ever.
Record GW profits.
Live-streams and YouTube content a-go-go.

Surrrrre, it’s dying...

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

While 40k might be dying in your local gaming sphere, it's certainly not on the whole.

A couple of years ago it absolutely was. 6E/7E were brutal on this game, the costs exploded, and the playability/balance were at an absolute low point. This resulted in 40k, at least temporarily, losing its spot as the #1 selling tabletop game for the first time basically...ever, and FFG's X-Wing swept in for a time.

That slide appears to have been arrested with 8th. It would be hard to argue 40k os dying these days.

My city of 250K people went from no 40K-carrying stores(including an official Warhammer store) to four after 8th Edition came out. I know several people that have started since 8th. A lot of Kill Team players (seriously, like dozens of new players), but a lot of new players in general. So I think your situation is fairly unique. Sorry.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
My city of 250K people went from no 40K-carrying stores(including an official Warhammer store) to four after 8th Edition came out. I know several people that have started since 8th. A lot of Kill Team players (seriously, like dozens of new players), but a lot of new players in general. So I think your situation is fairly unique. Sorry.

It has declined a bit in my area as well. I used to be able to go to my FLGS on Tuesdays and find pick up games... not anymore. Also used to be monthly tournaments at that store. Still, there are plenty of tournaments, just all are about an hour or two drive. I'll deal with it, but it's less convenient than it was in 5th edition.

Yes, 40k is dying. You should get ahead of the rush and quit now, before the lines get too long.

Did you mean to type warmachine? Lol

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, 40k is dying. You should get ahead of the rush and quit now, before the lines get too long.

Here, I'll take your models from you. Hell, I'll even pay for your shipping!

I match your paid shipping and raise you half a granola bar.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, 40k is dying. You should get ahead of the rush and quit now, before the lines get too long.

Here, I'll take your models from you. Hell, I'll even pay for your shipping!

But then I'd be rudely cutting in line ahead of the OP. We should wait until they quit and delete their forum account.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I match your paid shipping and raise you half a granola bar.

I will raise you whatever is in this mystery box.

 Horst wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
My city of 250K people went from no 40K-carrying stores(including an official Warhammer store) to four after 8th Edition came out. I know several people that have started since 8th. A lot of Kill Team players (seriously, like dozens of new players), but a lot of new players in general. So I think your situation is fairly unique. Sorry.

It has declined a bit in my area as well. I used to be able to go to my FLGS on Tuesdays and find pick up games... not anymore. Also used to be monthly tournaments at that store. Still, there are plenty of tournaments, just all are about an hour or two drive. I'll deal with it, but it's less convenient than it was in 5th edition.

I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I match your paid shipping and raise you half a granola bar.

I will raise you whatever is in this mystery box.

Take the box, take the box!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.

Agreed, it's just unfortunate if you live in an area where it used to be popular, and now it's less so. Still can find at least 3-4 games a month locally fairly easily though, and at least 1-2 tournaments a month, as long as I'm willing to drive to Canada. Apparently 40k is huge in the Niagra Falls area. Not THAT bad of a drive, so I'm OK with it.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

8th is doing gangbusters where I live.

is this post for real? It's...definitely...not dying. there were 3,000 more players competing in the ITC last year than the year before. So.

Dakkadakka has garnered a "reputation" which has probably chased some off and averted others whose course might otherwise have brought them to these shores. Some people here like me check in a lot less just because there is kind of a toxic streak going on and anyone who does not subscribe to the groupthink gets badgered. Sign of the times. So the forum might have lost a few, but there's a ton of players and more are coming on board!

My GT has grown in size year after year. We are at capacity without moving it (which is fine honestly, i don't know if I feel like doing more work!).

40K is fine. Way good.

 Horst wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.

Agreed, it's just unfortunate if you live in an area where it used to be popular, and now it's less so. Still can find at least 3-4 games a month locally fairly easily though, and at least 1-2 tournaments a month, as long as I'm willing to drive to Canada. Apparently 40k is huge in the Niagra Falls area. Not THAT bad of a drive, so I'm OK with it.

Honestly, I almost wonder if this is all a consequence of 7E being poison. Plenty of people I know left when Formations became the norm. I also know a few Eldar players that hated not getting games just by virtue of playing Eldar.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.

Agreed, it's just unfortunate if you live in an area where it used to be popular, and now it's less so. Still can find at least 3-4 games a month locally fairly easily though, and at least 1-2 tournaments a month, as long as I'm willing to drive to Canada. Apparently 40k is huge in the Niagra Falls area. Not THAT bad of a drive, so I'm OK with it.

Honestly, I almost wonder if this is all a consequence of 7E being poison. Plenty of people I know left when Formations became the norm. I also know a few Eldar players that hated not getting games just by virtue of playing Eldar.

6E had way more fallout. GW ost half its stock pricce at one point and they were writing 7E just a year into 6E

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

Well the fourms are dieing all over the web, not sure why, probably face book.

Also do you happen to be between 25 and 33? If thats the case all the people you started playing with moved away, or had a baby and don't have the time they used to. Take a look at your life son, then either box your armys up for a while or find a couple new gamer groups.

Headlss wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

Well the fourms are dieing all over the web, not sure why, probably face book.

Also do you happen to be between 25 and 33? If thats the case all the people you started playing with moved away, or had a baby and don't have the time they used to. Take a look at your life son, then either box your armys up for a while or find a couple new gamer groups.

Nah. Teach the game to new people. I got borrower forces for just such occassions andi REGULARLY show people!

the absolute opposite of dying with record sales and tournament attendance.

Far from it. 40k in my area has never had so many players.

The question you should be asking is: "Is DakkaDakka dying?"

And the answer is: Probably.

More people are getting their news from 40k Facebook and Warhammer Community. All of the old rumormongering sites are resorting to even worse clickbait in order to get people to visit. BoLS now does articles across a ton of gaming systems.

A lot of the old toxic forums are going the same way. The new players aren't visiting these forums. They're being directed to the Warhammer Community site and other places that are far more positive.

Of course Dakka isn't dying. The OP himself has no fewer than eight threads on the main page...

 Jancoran wrote:
is this post for real?

As I recall, the Op's user title was 'not that bright' for the longest time.

But going by the op's 'thinking' in my social group, no one owns a PS4 or an Xbox, but multiple NES classics. Therefore, Sony and Microsoft are unpopular and dying, and 8 bit Nintendo with two player, same room only games is the way of the future.

I don't think it is at all, and even if it did die, lots of people like my self would never abandon it because we love it like some people like star wars or some thing. We would just get 40k models else where.

Also with dakka, yes alot of people will be getting there news from big social media websites, but there are also those like my self who cant stand them websites, and prefer some thing like Dakka that's more of a underground dedicated type of fan base.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
is this post for real?

As I recall, the Op's user title was 'not that bright' for the longest time.

But going by the op's 'thinking' in my social group, no one owns a PS4 or an Xbox, but multiple NES classics. Therefore, Sony and Microsoft are unpopular and dying, and 8 bit Nintendo with two player, same room only games is the way of the future.

bow


Lol what are you even saying?

bow


Lol what are you even saying?

I believe he was using Appeal To Extremes to explain his thoughts on the thread topic.

"Because something is popular/unpopular in a specific location doesn't reflect it's popularity in the larger world." Would be another way of putting his console analogy.

From what I understand, wasn't 7th infinitely more complicated?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:


Lol what are you even saying?

He's casting shade on your post.

If you've been following 40k at all in 8th edition, you would know it and GW in general has had a massive resurgence. Local meta varies of course.

Towards the end of 7th, I was ready to sell off and try something new. I had catalogued my minis, was planning to bail.

But 8th was fresh again. My buddies all were on board for playing again. I was on board for playing again. 7th was pure poison for me. I hated it.

I'm not saying I love 40k like I used to, we're platonic these days. And the ever growing supplements are starting to wear me down again. Feels like were falling into bad habits again, but I'm not ready to leave yet.

Besides myself, there are at least 10-15 new players @ my flgs that have come back due to 8th. Ca18 terrain & city fight rules fixed my problems with cover/concealment.

Prior to 8th the last time I did anything 40k related was 1993.

I live in one of the most remote parts of the UK, Hell we've just got DVD players.... :p

And 40k has kicked off massively recently. We have a flood of new players into our FLGS and even have a large facebook community that's sprug up recently with a few FLGS having regular tourny's around each other to not have any clashes.

We've had a few old school players come back who last played in 2nd/3rd as they are liking the new 8th rules.

My 7 year old has inherited my Black Templar army and loves to paint and play Kill Team or small 40k games. And apparently quite a few kids in his school all talk about it! So even the younglings are loving it!

I think a lot of it is to do with the various Computer games out there now, hell even myself was tempted into tabletop after playing the original Dawn of War games.

Localy it can be dead as dead can be, but world wide it seems to do fine. I don't have a comperation to how it was in the past though. What I did notice is that w40k and AoS get a lot fewer new players, the other games and least localy.

The WWII historicals, xwing and infinity have a steady influx of people joining and leaving. With w40k it is 20 plus people that played since before I was born probably, adn 3-5 new people. AoS is the same 7 people playing the game over and over again. 9th age ain't GW, but it is the same even if it has more people playing it.

No idea why it is like that. When infinity had some sort of event a few months ago it had 14 people play new armies and most of them were new players. when w40k at my store has a noob tournament, it is 2-3 noobs and 20 vets. Makes the learning curve very steep .

Worldwide, it's going strong.

Locally?
Most of us shifted to 30k and AoS.
May seem weird, but the transition from old hammer to AoS was fine for me (though I still don't like what they did)
But for some reason I can't get into the new 40k.
Had upwards of 30+ games and just don't like the feel of it.

Now titanicus is running too, 40k is a rare thing here.
Last models I purchased were simply for parts for my 30k armies.

no. Locally for me the scene is thriving.

 Nerak wrote:
no. Locally for me the scene is thriving.

Hur är läget för Warhammer i Sverige? Jag bor i norra Västergötland, och det är okay-många som spelar här.

For those of you who are non-Swedish speakers (readers): How is the situation for Warhammer in Sweden? I live Västergötand, and there's an okay amount of players here.

i live in a city of maybe 50,000 residents and we have 1 official warhammer store, and at least 4 tabletop gaming stores that sell warhammer which is by far their biggest seller and takes up the most shop space. A couple also run tournaments. It used to be just the official store for years until 8th came out. And as others have said, GW shares have tripled in value since 8th, and i heard they are at their most profitable for a long long time !

Well in North America it is doing well.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/42621/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2018

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Fall 2018

1 Warhammer 40K Games Workshop

2 Age of Sigmar Games Workshop

3 D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis WizKids

4 Star Wars X-Wing Fantasy Flight Games

5 Star Wars Legion Fantasy Flight Games

Personally I am amazed at age of sigmar. That game holds zero attraction for me. How can I be different from the market?!

Forums ARE generally doing badly a present, but that's mostly because of how technology and social media has changed.

More people now are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc.. type sites which are ideally suited to short fast posting from mobile devices like phones and tablets. Meanwhile forums have taken a heavy back seat, even big sites are far less active than they were 5 or 10 years ago and recruitment and retention of members is a lot harder than it once was. Dakka is actually doing really well at present I would say.

People are surfing the net on their phones and tablets and less on their PC (heck my brother and his wife are fully online and don't own a PC in the house - its all tablets).

I'd also argue that forums just never had to advertise themselves before besides ranking well on google; now people hope into Facebook and search groups on there.






As for 40K and GW in general its honestly going through a second golden age or the fast build up to one (depending on your point of view). Sales are so high that GW has had to build a whole new factory at their Knottingham HQ in order to cope. That required buying land and building a new factory and wil require hiring new staff all at UK rates - so that's all very significant investment.
Heck this Christmas GW topped the UK Shareholder charts - for a short while its growth was astounding.

At least where I am (north of boston) it is going on much stronger than it was in 7th ed. We regularly have new faces showing up where we play and when we hold events 20-30 people turn up to pack the store we play at. We're basically at capacity most weeks, it's great.

Surge in players may be down to stuff like Kill Team too.

Cheaper ways to get involved. No need to drop hundreds just to get started. Rules, Team Box and you're pretty much good to go.

From there, an infantry box now and again to expand your Kill Team.

From there? 6 or so months in, one might look at their Kill Team and think 'you know, if I just added X and Y, I'd have a 40k army' (albeit a smol one).

From there? It's over man! You're hooked!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:


More people now are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc.. type sites which are ideally suited to short fast posting from mobile devices like phones and tablets. Meanwhile forums have taken a heavy back seat, even big sites are far less active than they were 5 or 10 years ago and recruitment and retention of members is a lot harder than it once was. Dakka is actually doing really well at present I would say.

Facebook's other advantage is that it puts you in contact with your local community. And the larger groups (such as formally organised clubs) will have links to each other, further expanding a gamer's horizons and opponent count.

That leads to tournaments being organised, and possibly more frequently. After all, if you're aware of, and in touch with, a community of around 100 gamers (friends, friends of friends etc), then setting up for say, a 20 man tournament should see a full hall.

It sounds daft, given how archaic Wargaming actually is. But such a social hobby is so well suited to social media.

Take my Loot Group on Facebook. Because it's all face-to-face, it works. FB stuff garners a measure of trust over and beyond what a Forum can offer (I don't know your name, your profile tells me nowt), which allows Lootin' to work. At the time of writing, we've got 2,750 members. And five admins.

Some of my deputy admins also admin other FB trading pages. And yes, we do share 'intelligence'. If someone's proven to be trouble on one, there's a chance they may be booted from all. That's not something so easily done when you can use a pseudonym.

the_scotsman wrote:
At least where I am (north of boston) it is going on much stronger than it was in 7th ed. We regularly have new faces showing up where we play and when we hold events 20-30 people turn up to pack the store we play at. We're basically at capacity most weeks, it's great.

You're in my area!

Where do ya play?

the_scotsman wrote:
At least where I am (north of boston) it is going on much stronger than it was in 7th ed. We regularly have new faces showing up where we play and when we hold events 20-30 people turn up to pack the store we play at. We're basically at capacity most weeks, it's great.

Is that the Hobby Bunker, Scotsman?

I skipped 4E to 7E, but I can tell you that there is a lot more 40K going on here in southern NH than there was during 3E. Back then it was nearly all GW and now other games like Bolt Action and X Wing have a decent following here. There are also a lot more stores. I'd say it is doing the opposite of dying.

 Slowroll wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
At least where I am (north of boston) it is going on much stronger than it was in 7th ed. We regularly have new faces showing up where we play and when we hold events 20-30 people turn up to pack the store we play at. We're basically at capacity most weeks, it's great.

Is that the Hobby Bunker, Scotsman?

I skipped 4E to 7E, but I can tell you that there is a lot more 40K going on here in southern NH than there was during 3E. Back then it was nearly all GW and now other games like Bolt Action and X Wing have a decent following here. There are also a lot more stores. I'd say it is doing the opposite of dying.

It is the bunker indeed! I've been playing there for...god, nearly nine years now? There's always been at least some community but now on an average weekend we probably pull 12-16 people and when we run events like 25-30 people show.

There's also a brand new store just up the road in saugus that has a pretty active 40k scene on I think wednesdays? they are more of a competitive crowd, so I don't go there as much (plus weekends are just easier) but they're great guys.

Not here, for whatever reason 8th brainwashed everyone into thinking GW has completely reformed.

40k gets played less near me.
Kill Team gets played by the 40k people, and some 40k happens.
GW Scifi Warhammer games are not dying.

Forums are dying off though. Other formats (FB, FB groups, etc) are taking over, as they will. Dakka does not appear to be dying though.
There are more alternatives to 40k than ever before, so 40k players will drift off to them, probably mixing in some 40k games sometimes.

Forums dying might be caused by people posting inflammatory thread titles.
Maybe call it "My 40k group is dying. How is yours?"

No. Next question.

Is Dakka traffic dying off? Potentially. With GW having more public engagement, and forums in general going out of fashion, it's not strange to think that people may go elsewhere. On a personal level, Dakka (talking about the general userbase, not the moderation team or any single person) is far more negative and (in my opinion) overcritical than some of the other 40k communities I'm part of. I find myself spending less time here, and more time elsewhere, because I simply don't want to keep seeing all the negativity.

Not to say that Dakka doesn't have it's perks and it's things I like, but I want to enjoy the hobby, not see post after post about how people hate it, or how it's dying in their eyes.

Not dying, but the increasing unbalance in 8th does kick people over to other game systems or 30k.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No. Next question.

Is Dakka traffic dying off? Potentially. With GW having more public engagement, and forums in general going out of fashion, it's not strange to think that people may go elsewhere. On a personal level, Dakka (talking about the general userbase, not the moderation team or any single person) is far more negative and (in my opinion) overcritical than some of the other 40k communities I'm part of. I find myself spending less time here, and more time elsewhere, because I simply don't want to keep seeing all the negativity.

Not to say that Dakka doesn't have it's perks and it's things I like, but I want to enjoy the hobby, not see post after post about how people hate it, or how it's dying in their eyes.

I don't think forums will ever fully die out and honestly, I'd rather see people who say good and bad than just having "echo chambers" where its only positive talk and anything even remotely resembling criticism or not thinking every new thing is even better than the last gets shouted down or punished. I've seen way too many groups where they are like that and it basically becomes a "GW fan group" rather than a discussion group.

Wayniac wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No. Next question.

Is Dakka traffic dying off? Potentially. With GW having more public engagement, and forums in general going out of fashion, it's not strange to think that people may go elsewhere. On a personal level, Dakka (talking about the general userbase, not the moderation team or any single person) is far more negative and (in my opinion) overcritical than some of the other 40k communities I'm part of. I find myself spending less time here, and more time elsewhere, because I simply don't want to keep seeing all the negativity.

Not to say that Dakka doesn't have it's perks and it's things I like, but I want to enjoy the hobby, not see post after post about how people hate it, or how it's dying in their eyes.

I don't think forums will ever fully die out and honestly, I'd rather see people who say good and bad than just having "echo chambers" where its only positive talk and anything even remotely resembling criticism or not thinking every new thing is even better than the last gets shouted down or punished. I've seen way too many groups where they are like that and it basically becomes a "GW fan group" rather than a discussion group.

I think groups can go both ways sadly, but I'd say luckily, dakka is firmly in the middle.
I've found reddit to be insanely toxic, even liking a model on there is enough to get you lynched as a white knight defending GW lol.
While I don't fall either way, I'm more towards a fan currently as the models recently are solid, got some nice sets and the rules are improving.

With 40k I see it like AoS.
They need time to find their feet properly.
AoS was a complete massacre and a joke to begin with, now though, it's shaping up to be ridiculessly successful.

Wayniac wrote:
I'd rather see people who say good and bad than just having "echo chambers" where its only positive talk and anything even remotely resembling criticism or not thinking every new thing is even better than the last gets shouted down or punished. I've seen way too many groups where they are like that and it basically becomes a "GW fan group" rather than a discussion group.

I'd argue that having an echo chamber where everything is criticism and thinking everything is worse is just as, if not more so, bad.

There should always be room for discussion, but when things are dominated by either "GW CAN DO NO WRONG, THIS IS AMAZING!!" or "GW ARE TERRIBLE, EVERYTHING IS TRASH!!", I think I'd rather engage with the group that isn't going to fill me with negative feelings and salt.

Unfortunately, Dakka (again, generally speaking) seems to lean more towards the latter. Twitter is the most positive I've seen, Facebook seems the most balanced (but I'm not that keen on it overall), and some parts of Reddit are incredibly toxic.

But, of course, this about 40k apparently dying.

Horst wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.

Agreed, it's just unfortunate if you live in an area where it used to be popular, and now it's less so. Still can find at least 3-4 games a month locally fairly easily though, and at least 1-2 tournaments a month, as long as I'm willing to drive to Canada. Apparently 40k is huge in the Niagra Falls area. Not THAT bad of a drive, so I'm OK with it.

I live in NF and have to go to either Hamilton, Burlington or Buffalo for a game, so...

 greatbigtree wrote:
Towards the end of 7th, I was ready to sell off and try something new. I had catalogued my minis, was planning to bail.

But 8th was fresh again. My buddies all were on board for playing again. I was on board for playing again. 7th was pure poison for me. I hated it.

I'm not saying I love 40k like I used to, we're platonic these days. And the ever growing supplements are starting to wear me down again. Feels like were falling into bad habits again, but I'm not ready to leave yet.

Dead as a doornail.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I'd rather see people who say good and bad than just having "echo chambers" where its only positive talk and anything even remotely resembling criticism or not thinking every new thing is even better than the last gets shouted down or punished. I've seen way too many groups where they are like that and it basically becomes a "GW fan group" rather than a discussion group.

I'd argue that having an echo chamber where everything is criticism and thinking everything is worse is just as, if not more so, bad.

There should always be room for discussion, but when things are dominated by either "GW CAN DO NO WRONG, THIS IS AMAZING!!" or "GW ARE TERRIBLE, EVERYTHING IS TRASH!!", I think I'd rather engage with the group that isn't going to fill me with negative feelings and salt.

Unfortunately, Dakka (again, generally speaking) seems to lean more towards the latter. Twitter is the most positive I've seen, Facebook seems the most balanced (but I'm not that keen on it overall), and some parts of Reddit are incredibly toxic.

But, of course, this about 40k apparently dying.

Dunno what parts of Reddit you've been on, but the subs I go on (the most well known GW related ones) generally seem to follow the trend of "Love everything GW does or GTFO" mentality, that is also exacerbated by Reddit's upvote/downvote system which stymies discussion. Forums will always have their place due to that. Someone posts something on here you don't like? Best thing you can do is ignore them, but the post is still there and not downvoted into oblivion by users trying to quash active discussion and only promote an echo chamber.


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 EnTyme wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Towards the end of 7th, I was ready to sell off and try something new. I had catalogued my minis, was planning to bail.

But 8th was fresh again. My buddies all were on board for playing again. I was on board for playing again. 7th was pure poison for me. I hated it.

I'm not saying I love 40k like I used to, we're platonic these days. And the ever growing supplements are starting to wear me down again. Feels like were falling into bad habits again, but I'm not ready to leave yet.

Dead as a doornail.

Just a little PSA- ICV2 is only as good as whomever's narrative wants to be pushed as the data is gathered manually from FLGSs (FLGSs that also choose to participate), you can look at past ones where AoS slipped out of the top 5 yet it was still strong in other local areas for example. The data only gives you a snapshot of those interviewed.

Wayniac wrote:
Not here, for whatever reason 8th brainwashed everyone into thinking GW has completely reformed.

It is amazing what good PR can do. 90% of the improved viewing of GW is that they are no longer a stone wall with no community interaction. Even if balance isn't amazing it helps to comfort customers if it seems like the designers are engaged.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Towards the end of 7th, I was ready to sell off and try something new. I had catalogued my minis, was planning to bail.

But 8th was fresh again. My buddies all were on board for playing again. I was on board for playing again. 7th was pure poison for me. I hated it.

I'm not saying I love 40k like I used to, we're platonic these days. And the ever growing supplements are starting to wear me down again. Feels like were falling into bad habits again, but I'm not ready to leave yet.

That's the problem. GW is falling into old habits and everyone sees it. So people once again are going to leave the game and they probably wont come back this time.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

The situation is different here.
I think we had never more 40k players than right now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am not doubting that there has been a decline in some areas, but for the most part, 40K as a whole seems to be doing better than it was five years ago when I started.

Agreed, it's just unfortunate if you live in an area where it used to be popular, and now it's less so. Still can find at least 3-4 games a month locally fairly easily though, and at least 1-2 tournaments a month, as long as I'm willing to drive to Canada. Apparently 40k is huge in the Niagra Falls area. Not THAT bad of a drive, so I'm OK with it.

Honestly, I almost wonder if this is all a consequence of 7E being poison. Plenty of people I know left when Formations became the norm. I also know a few Eldar players that hated not getting games just by virtue of playing Eldar.

Honestly this sucks, When people try to drum up excitement for 40k. And then tell you not to bother turning up as no one wants to play you since Eldar player.
And then wonder why 40k is dead here as well for the most part.
I even got kicked from a facebook group for playing eldar and complaining my gray knights had been wrecked

I think on the whole, GW are doing well. But i think the supplements are probably helping a lot. Necromunda, kill team. And now with some players itching for Mordheim they even buying some fantasy minis.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

The situation is different here.
I think we had never more 40k players than right now.

My experience with most games is that when a game is really popular in an area and then suddenly die off, it is almost always due to a small group of people who poison the whole community with their toxicity.

The heyday for 40k locally was definitely 5th edition but there are way more people playing now than did from the middle of 6th through 7th. That is largely because toxic people entered the community and poisoned it. 8th edition brought people back and, so far, the toxic elements have stayed far away (which has been really nice).

To clarify my earlier post... I don’t think GW is dying by any means. Just that my interest had died, was rekindled, but is now waning again with the constant (paid) rules updates.

I’m in favour of updating rules, but it is distasteful to me to need to buy book after book after book of mostly flash and little substance. Compile the updates, add them to the FAQ and Errata. Just my slice of the world and not claiming to be more than that.

 Red_Five wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

The situation is different here.
I think we had never more 40k players than right now.

My experience with most games is that when a game is really popular in an area and then suddenly die off, it is almost always due to a small group of people who poison the whole community with their toxicity.

The heyday for 40k locally was definitely 5th edition but there are way more people playing now than did from the middle of 6th through 7th. That is largely because toxic people entered the community and poisoned it. 8th edition brought people back and, so far, the toxic elements have stayed far away (which has been really nice).

I find toxicity is often overblown. What I find often happens is that club or group forms around a central core of members who share a similar interest. However as they are often friends it can run the risk that "life" gets in the way at around the same sort of time for them. This can suddenly result in several key members leaving through no fault of the group on its own - they just drift aside and play less and less as life gets in the way.

Then suddenly the group might lose its leader - leaving the club held together by a few people who don't really know how to organise and run and it keeps dwindling.


A big weakness is that many clubs don't recruit. They form and let people walk in the door, but they don't go out hunting and advertising (except perhaps a note in the local game shop window). So they only need to lose a few to start really losing their active population and once they are on a downer its harder to get new people in when there's perhaps only three or four around

Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

@ OP: if by "dying" you mean you lost/are losing interest in the game due to [INSERT REASON HERE], and if anyone else is feeling the same way - sure, why not. But doesn't it happen all the time anyways especially if you haven't been playing eldar all along?

 Grimtuff wrote:


Just a little PSA- ICV2 is only as good as whomever's narrative wants to be pushed as the data is gathered manually from FLGSs (FLGSs that also choose to participate), you can look at past ones where AoS slipped out of the top 5 yet it was still strong in other local areas for example. The data only gives you a snapshot of those interviewed.

Yes, but those willing to use ICV2 as evidence of GWs demise in the past cannot also now ignore it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

Exactly this. Clubs are usually dominated by a handful of strong personalities. If they have a bone to pick with a particular system then you won't see it do well in that area.

Honestly, I think GW's financial performance is enough to say there is no overall issue, although of course local scenes can vary. From my observations over the years, this seems to be a bigger problem in the US than the UK too, I reckon it is probably to do with the lower population density over much of the US. I get the impression that a lot more travelling is involved in general to form/attend a club there, unless you live in a major city. So it is easy for a local club to fade, and not be able to relocate to a new club due to the distance involved.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

delete

I could accept that 2 years into 8th the gloss is starting to come off a bit. A meta defined by soup seems destined to run and run, and while the CA points changes are making most armies at least vaguely playable, its usually with clear auto-takes and never-takes which conspires to produce very similar games even if dice change the outcome.

But I think my hopes the big FAQ/CA would shake up the meta are not universally shared - indeed many people hate and fear the prospect, because they have 2k points and any changes puts them out for a year or so while they rebuild.

I can't square the idea that things were better in 5th or 6th.

 Brother Castor wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

That's a yikes from me

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

I live in the gaming wasteland known as the US bible belt, the Deep South. 40K has been thriving here of late moreso than I've seen in the past few years. When 8E came out there was a large surge, then a bit of a lull as the Codexes got around, now it seems to be growing again and I dare say there are more playing & buying at the local FLGS than when 8E initially came out.

Honestly, I think Kill Team has helped get a good portion of folks back into the game and looking at returning to 40K proper to boot.

Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

I really don't buy the whole dakka is dying narrative. It's not as active as it was when I started in 5th but it's a lot more active than during 7th.

I've seen dakka far worse than it is now.
I think it peaked maybe 2 years ago but this is far from dying.

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

If you think Dakka is toxic then you'd probably die of shock if you saw the early internet. Dakka is an absurdly heavily moderated forum with Iron Fist Mods compared to the early 90's BBS and IRC.

I mean, you said "poor moderation", which is technically true, but if you meant "poor" as in "not moderated enough", I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

Ah, those were the days! Back when I was a boy, I remember them well. Wasn't there a few threads where other people in his club were telling him off for a variety of reasons too?

Back to the topic, 40k is at its height. In my area my FLGS local championship tickets sell out within the first two hours of announcement. Max tables. Every time. My own personal interest has waned and now I leave the game, my Night Lords are just so frustrating to play with, even in casual games it's not worth the investment anymore. I look to greener pastures such as Batman, EDEN, Mythos, and more skirmish games and they suit my needs now. They also allow me to invest in other hobbies too, now I'm not shovelling money into a faction GW have clear no interest in.

To make a long story short, the rules got an overwhelming welcome overhaul but the same external balance issues arise from past editions, but everyone turns the other cheek because GW became more 'customer-friendly' with social media, ergo the white-knighting, echo-chamber on the Warhammer pages/groups is rife (despite GW asking for fair critique).

I've been lurking for a few years, doesn't seem like it is getting quieter. Some people have moved off forums on post exclusively on instagram/equivalent as far as I can tell..

There’s also the advantage of regular FAQs, Errata and of course Chapter Approved.

CA in particular is a powerful tool. Consider CA:18’s new missions. Just a couple of small tweaks, and we’re playing a fairly different game. Acceptable Losses? Little point in trying to table me, because provided I can stack up the VPs early on, I can still win. That of course balances out Power Armies from Tactical Armies. First Strike balances out having the First Turn advantage, as both players can score it.

Does that instantly fix existing problems? No. Of course it doesn’t. But it does open up the field somewhat. The previously ‘Sure Thing’ armies lose their unique appeal, without being made utterly redundant.

Bolter Drill beta rule. And indeed, Beta Rules in general? We’re all now part of the playtesting community. That’s a colossal step forward, and shows their recent engagement drive as more than simple lip service. If the feedback revolves around, say ‘it’s a decent boost, but basic Marines still need mode’, we may see the Beta Rule be adopted, and a further Beta Rule released. Time will tell.

Then there’s the tweaking of points values. We’re into the second batch now, and they do seem to be broadly welcome, whether they go up or down. No, it’s not universal welcome, but hey, you try pleasing a community as big as GW’s

There’s a lot to enjoy at the moment!

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

Something something glass houses and stones...

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

Looking at Alexa traffic stats, Dakka appears to be doing just fine, and there is *way* less drama and ugliness here than on places like Facebook or Reddit, especially if you want to talk about mods, the Dakka mods are comparative saints next to what can be experienced in other online 40k communities.

The only difference is that forums like Dakka/BoC/etc are no longer the *only* places for this sort of community the way they were for many years, and that GW is now actually interacting with their community.

*compares GW's stock prices before 8th edition and currently*
Signs point to no.

Seriously, last summer we got stories of GW doubling it's profits and distributing 5 million pounds of boni across its employees. Yeah, not an indication of 8th edition alone, but it still shows that GW is doing pretty well, which it wouldn't be if its flagship was sinking.

Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Sales/Revenue are the only (highly imperfect) proxy, I would guess, but 2017/2018 is almost certainly the peak, with 2018/2019 quite possibly overtaking it (regional variations aside).

As sales go, the nadir was around 2005/2006 and 2006/2007, with 5th Edition giving 40K a new lease on life and a (at the time pretty big, compared to 8th edition minor) resurgence. 2012/2013 with the Dark Vengeance and 6th Ed. release actually was GW's most successful business year up to that point outside of the 2002/2003 LoTR suger-rush and, for all he did wrong, Tom Kirby did a reasonably good job of taking GW from red numbers in the mid-zero years to the success of 2012/2013 and the 6th Ed. hype on the back of the pretty popular 5th Edition.

That said, things went somewhat downhill from there (though never as bad as in the mid-2000s), before recovering with the new CEO and, in no small part, 8th Edition, as well as AoS, the return of specialist games, etc., etc.. starting 2015/2016 or so.

 Haighus wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

That's very true - charity shops which don't pay most of the rates, likely pay little or no rent, often don't pay for stock (or if they do its very little) and have volunteer staff. Betting I've seen some go, but yeah they are on the rise as well and are pretty cheap to run - a few TV's and such then its mostly just processing bets where your customers throw money at you. I've even seen a few pawnshops on the rise here and there.

But your good old corner shop or hobby store or such are basically nearly all gone in many regions - those I see hanging on tend to be owned by older people who bought the shop years ago so at least don't have rent, but the business rates, taxes and overheads are still crippling; esp with so many now buying online where the prices are nearly always cheaper and the range far greater. Heck even a lot of the highstreet names only remain because they've an online store backing them up - the days when a local shop could support itself on local trade are long gone it would seem .

Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

Cheap airbrush supplies? I'll have to try asking in one.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

Harry Hill's TV Burp intensifies!

 Overread wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

That's very true - charity shops which don't pay most of the rates, likely pay little or no rent, often don't pay for stock (or if they do its very little) and have volunteer staff. Betting I've seen some go, but yeah they are on the rise as well and are pretty cheap to run - a few TV's and such then its mostly just processing bets where your customers throw money at you. I've even seen a few pawnshops on the rise here and there.

But your good old corner shop or hobby store or such are basically nearly all gone in many regions - those I see hanging on tend to be owned by older people who bought the shop years ago so at least don't have rent, but the business rates, taxes and overheads are still crippling; esp with so many now buying online where the prices are nearly always cheaper and the range far greater. Heck even a lot of the highstreet names only remain because they've an online store backing them up - the days when a local shop could support itself on local trade are long gone it would seem .

Agreed. I see an increase in charity shops, betting shops, and pawn shops as a sign of hard times though. It isn't a healthy sign for a high street.

About the only local shops that survive well are those where people still want to see the physical goods before buying, mainly grocers, bakers etc.

IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

GW is still the same people working in many departments, however they have changed a lot of things. For the first time in probably a stupidly long period of time the whole of 40K has an up to date current edition Codex. The only force that hasn't got one is Sisters of Battle - every other faction in the game is up to date. And this is on top of Index releases that were done on day 1 of the new edition launch.

AoS is in a worse place, but a big part of that is legacy issues they had to deal with as a result of its launch and big shifts in its focus and management over that period of time including a new CEO coming into power. However still there's a general hope and expectation that all factions will get a 2.0 compatible Battletome.


These are big real changes to GW's practice. In the past it wasn't when it was IF your army would see a Codex/Battletome and that IF could be months or years away. Plus there were several armies that skipped whole editions - heck armies like Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar skipped more than one edition of updates.


GW might still have iffy balance elements, but FAQs and Errata are FAR faster in their release. Heck I recall GW released a load of FAQ/Errata documents in the past almost in the last month before the edition ended and they released a new edition of the rules.




So yes some of their same rules problems and balance are still there and there is room to improve; but they've already made some massive changes thus far. In fact I'd say the fact that GW took those steps and got a massive profit reward is more incentive for them to continue to improve. They changed things, listened to customers and reacted to feedback* and were rewarded with record sales. To me that suggests that if they want to continue to maintain and improve on that then its a direct sign that improving balance, improving communication and feedback are going to result in improved results - clearly what any company wants.


*not all feedback, no company will ever please all customers at the same time

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

I played a test game of X-Wing last year and assuming there have been to major rule changes, it was just fun because it was new and different. But that's just my opinion.

Eh, tight rules don't necessarily make for a better game. I mean, they don't hurt, but it's not a slam-dunk.

40k does well because it's 40k - a uniquely weird mish-mash of just about every sci-fi trope ever, developed and nutured over what, 30 or so years by a bunch of Nerds.

It's scope is vast. It's potential stories limitless. There's less chance of people screaming on about canon, because it's all totally pants-on-head-whilst-marrying-a-yard-brush crazy, stupid, and daft.

It also developed across those years with a firm DIY mentality. Now that's not justification for shonky rules - just that for some of us Old Grognards, that's just been part-and-parcel of it since forever, so we're less bothered by it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

Ironically, I completely agree.
I found these games to be boring at best and no matter how much I tried, I just couldn't get into them.
Mantic I had more success with and actually enjoy it.

Now there's a high chance that it's because GW as a whole has been part of my life for around 20+ years now and im too stubborn to change, but its mainly the models for me.
None of those companies make anything that really appeals to me.
Again, mantic steps in and I like quite a few of them, but they don't come close to GW in terms of a visual aspect.

 The Warp Forge wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

Ah, those were the days! Back when I was a boy, I remember them well. Wasn't there a few threads where other people in his club were telling him off for a variety of reasons too?

Back to the topic, 40k is at its height. In my area my FLGS local championship tickets sell out within the first two hours of announcement. Max tables. Every time. My own personal interest has waned and now I leave the game, my Night Lords are just so frustrating to play with, even in casual games it's not worth the investment anymore. I look to greener pastures such as Batman, EDEN, Mythos, and more skirmish games and they suit my needs now. They also allow me to invest in other hobbies too, now I'm not shovelling money into a faction GW have clear no interest in.

To make a long story short, the rules got an overwhelming welcome overhaul but the same external balance issues arise from past editions, but everyone turns the other cheek because GW became more 'customer-friendly' with social media, ergo the white-knighting, echo-chamber on the Warhammer pages/groups is rife (despite GW asking for fair critique).

Pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

I'm another regular at TFW's flgs, and I can vouch we're booming at the minute. The championship sells out each event on the day the tickets go up (the first taking ~7 hours, the most recent taking 90 minutes including 3 reserves).

I have to admit, there's a few large-scale clubs up near us, and most of them run event-to-event so are mostly dominated by competative lists, which one would expect really.

So, no, 40k isnt dying, certainly not in the North-East of the UK, but in the city im at for uni there's pretty much nothing. There's the official GW store, which is nice enough, but I only know the name of one independant games store, and no more. So, yeah, totally dependant on location I guess.



The only thing I can say in regard to 40k as a whole is that currently GW is trying to facelift their entire line, which of course means they've front-loaded the Imperium like a cruise liner, because Poster Boys (tm), and with Vigilus Ablaze have finally updated the Token Bad Guys (tm), but everthing else is just getting shafted in the process.

I'm a Necron player, and as of the first (the 3rd Book if I recall) of 8th Ed (1st Xeno book of 8th, again IIRC), we came off real bad. CA has put us in a playable place, and we have a decent chance if things go our way.

But, as a book that suffers from early-launch syndrome, we're intrinsically underpowered against the rest of the books in rotation as a single book. Astartes of both flavours also suffer from this, but both of these have allies (Soup, although not intnetionally) to help out.

Necrons dont. We got shafted, badly. T'au also dont, and neither do Orks, but both of these books are regarded as internally better balanced than Necrons. Either way, they still struggle to complete against Imperial or Aeldari Soup, so it becomes clear that Soup is the problem.

I will admit im a titchy bit biased because both my armies came off badly (unless I spent a gakload on the new FoTM), but the power gap created by Soup armies is just too large to be bridged.

That said, unnecessary/pointless buffs are slightly annoying as well, but thats another discussion altogether.

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

Jackal90 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

I mean, to be fair I don't see how anyone could ever think GW writes a better game than games with actual well-written rules. opinion or not. It's subjective fact that those games have better rules, now whether or not the individual person feels they are enjoyable is 100% opinion.

Wayniac wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

I mean, to be fair I don't see how anyone could ever think GW writes a better game than games with actual well-written rules. opinion or not. It's subjective fact that those games have better rules, now whether or not the individual person feels they are enjoyable is 100% opinion.

Where in the original quotes did rules come into it?
It was purely about enjoyment.
Its a game, it's sole purpose is to be enjoyable.

Rules wise I agree, GW is both wonky and inconsistent with 90% of their rules.

As a whole though, I just find games workshops products to be alot more submersive.
As I said, this may or may not largely be due to me growing up playing GW games.

I've tried just about every other miniature based game I can find and none really cut it for me.
Either the models are boring or just plain bad, or the setting and background seems forced or lacking.

Wayniac wrote:
It's subjective

Wayniac wrote:
fact

Pick one dawg.

Personally, though I haven't played Infinity, I loathe the gameplay of both X-wing and WMH, because I consider both to be so bogged down in rules designed for bleeding-edge competitive play that they completely lose the feel of the game. WMH doesn't play like a simulation of fantasy characters on a battlefield fighting, it plays like a game with tokens, where you might as well just be playing with round discs of cardboard with a little picture of the monster printed on them. That's my opinion - or, if you prefer, my "subjective fact" when it comes to that game system. Xwing does it a little better, but for a flight simulating game I'd so much rather pull out a beardier WW2 dogfighting game system with a little less concern about forcing its players to buy the boxes that have the best cardboard tokens and a little more sense of joyful simulation in the rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal90 wrote:


As a whole though, I just find games workshops products to be alot more submersive.

I agree last time I played I nearly drowned!

Jackal90 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

I think in the case here at least 2 of the 3 (if not all 3) are generally regarded as very good games. And comparing them to 40k with even a few standard meterics (accessibility, clarity of rules, balance, focus, ease of play, etc.) those games better crafted than 40k. You, and I, might not like them but that doesn't make them inferior games to 40k. I might like The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift more than Lawrence of Arabia, that definitely doesn't make it a superior movie in any respect. Just that I like a few bad movies. It is okay to like bad things like that. Just because you and/or I like these things doesn't make them good/superior. Just like not liking something makes it bad/inferior.

To be clear, I think Warhammer 40k is a very mediocre miniatures war game. Not the worst I have ever played (I won't bother playing a bad game more than once or twice), but it is probably the worst miniatures game I played with any consistency*. At the same time, I still like it well enough to play more than many of the other ones I have (well Kill Team anyways). I tried Infinity and X-wing both. I didn't really like them either. I have watched a couple of batreps of Warmachine as my gaming group transitioned from another miniatures game t to it. It didn't grab me, and I parted ways with that group. However, I certainly won't say that they are inferior to 40k. I still like 40k over any of them quite bit more even if I am mostly a skirmish miniatures game player and 40k is a bigger scope.

It is why I am so glad Kill Team exists as it is. Even Kill team has a lot of rough spots in the rules compared to the tightness of Infinity. More so, if you consider how simple Kill Team rules are compared to Infinity's complexity. However, the simplicity of Kill Team is what I like about it and the complexity of Infinity is what I didn't like about it.

I wouldn't say 40k is dying so much as it is hard for FLGS's to stay in business. It is a very NICHE hobby and not every place is going to have the customers to support it. That's why folks if you have a FLGS you like to go to, try and buy through them, support local businesses.

It's not dying. Is it getting bigger.

Part of that is the mass of warhammer video games that GW is pushing out the door. They are mass leasing their IP, which is helping to get it out the door and get exposure.

This gets people interested in the IP, which then get's people into the mini game.

So in answer to OP's question:

In your area? Maybe. Globally. No, it wouldn't seem so.