We'll see if he has over 10 wounds; the model he's riding is large, but not huge. I could see this as being something very similar to the new Ork WarTrakk HQ model in terms of wounds. This, right here, makes me think some good stuff is coming. Helping the Daemon Engines hit on 3's instead of 4's is huge (and 2's if they get Prescience). Also, he loves diving into enemy units, because enemies vehicles near him will hit worse! That's pretty awesome if you can get him in close, and really hurts close-combat Knights.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
that's the best-looking chaos model I've ever seen. I'm usually not a fan of the chaos aesthetic but had I not just started another army I would be picking up this bad boy
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I think hes just saying the rule is cool but something like dark reapers will still likely be able to kill it quickly
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I think hes just saying the rule is cool but something like dark reapers will still likely be able to kill it quickly
1. We do not know, since we don't know its rules or stats.
2. That's not much of an argument. Showcase pretty much anything and "the strongest shooting unit in this shooting based game can still kill it" will probably apply.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I think hes just saying the rule is cool but something like dark reapers will still likely be able to kill it quickly
1. We do not know, since we don't know its rules or stats.
2. That's not much of an argument. Showcase pretty much anything and "the strongest shooting unit in this shooting based game can still kill it" will probably apply.
But at least it's something new, and it looks cool.
Possibly, but if he's not much bigger than the Ork Trikeboss then there's a chance he can hide. Otherwise I'd be fine bringing two if that impaler chainglaive is as strong as it sounds.
Daedalus81 wrote: Possibly, but if he's not much bigger than the Ork Trikeboss then there's a chance he can hide. Otherwise I'd be fine bringing two if that impaler chainglaive is as strong as it sounds.
To clarify, if he's 9 wounds or less and roughly the cost of a Daemon Prince, he's in, I'm sold, no complaints.
If he's 10 wounds or more, it becomes very situational as to when I'd actually field him.
the Venomcrawler sooo needs to be an Elite rather than Heavy. If they cram all the engines in the heavy slot building lists is going to be very awkward.
topaxygouroun i wrote: the Venomcrawler sooo needs to be an Elite rather than Heavy. If they cram all the engines in the heavy slot building lists is going to be very awkward.
I certainly hope this hq enables some awesome demon engine builds. They're pretty cool looking models overall. Could even convince me to buy the shadowspear box honestly. I was going to buy it until I saw the price, then I was going to buy the vanguard half, then I saw the points and that caused me to hold off completely.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I think hes just saying the rule is cool but something like dark reapers will still likely be able to kill it quickly
1. We do not know, since we don't know its rules or stats.
2. That's not much of an argument. Showcase pretty much anything and "the strongest shooting unit in this shooting based game can still kill it" will probably apply.
Buy three Knights, convert into Kytan Ravagers, buy a couple forgefiends/maulerfiends and fill out with Helbrutes and Heldrakes. I figure that guy plus 3 Kytans will be around 1500; throw a couple other monsters in and have yourself a party. I think Helbrutes are cheap on eBay from starter sets, then the Kytans can be had from two Renegade boxes with some Bloodthirster bits (Axe blades and D-Axe). $600-700 retail should get you a full Daemon engine army. Cheaper via eBay.
A. the model needs to be fast. 8"-10" move to keep up.
B. the model needs to have 9 wounds. If it has more, it's pointless.
C. the model needs to either have AMAZING melee weapons, or be CHEAP AS DIRT.
If any of these things isn't done right, then even though this model is gorgeous, it's not going to be worth it. Let's think about the worst case scenarios.
A. The model has a 6" move for some ungodly reason. This means that it can't keep up with the Venomcrawlers that it wants to buff, meaning its buff is pointless.
B. Let's say it has 10 wounds, or 11, or even 20. That just means it's going to be targetted immediately and the thing that your army is based around will be removed from the table turn 1. Then the daemon engines you're supposed to be buffing are back to hitting on 4's or worse.
C. Let's say it has amazing melee weapons and is expensive. Ok, that's fine. At least it can buff AND pull its own weight. I'll deal with that.
Let's say it has crap melee weapons and is expensive. Ok, so you're ONLY bringing this for its buffing ability, which means you're paying a massive tax for that potential +1 to hit, removing the ability to take other things in your army.
Let's say it has crap melee weapons but it's cheap. Great! Then you can bring him along for the buff and the flamer and forget everything else. That would be decent.
So, there's a lot of ways that this could just fall apart, and here's hoping GW wants to sell this model and gives it some really solid rules.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I imagine it'll mostly be a way to give you a small edge when fighting dreadnoughts and or enemy deamon engines.
- There is little chance it's under 8" move.
- Of all the characters in the game, which ones are unable to hide? Magnus, Morty, Knights, GMDK. Big stuff. There is little chance he is over 9 wounds. Additionally, the VC is 10 wounds and roughly the same size, which means it can easily shave a wound.
- It has a baleflamer and a needle (probably melee) or a second flamer mouth weapon. And of course it is self described as a vehicle killer (Bellowing profane litanies that cause nearby machines to glitch and seize, they specialise at dismantling tanks, skimmers and the like with prying mechadendrites and brutal swings of their impaler chainglaives.)
Daedalus81 wrote: - There is little chance it's under 8" move.
- Of all the characters in the game, which ones are unable to hide? Magnus, Morty, Knights, GMDK. Big stuff. There is little chance he is over 9 wounds. Additionally, the VC is 10 wounds and roughly the same size, which means it can easily shave a wound.
- It has a baleflamer and a needle (probably melee) or a second flamer mouth weapon. And of course it is self described as a vehicle killer (Bellowing profane litanies that cause nearby machines to glitch and seize, they specialise at dismantling tanks, skimmers and the like with prying mechadendrites and brutal swings of their impaler chainglaives.)
I hope you're right. As pointed out, if this is 10 wounds or more, none of this matters.
I'm just excited for having a lot of daemon engines. I'm all in to Black Legion right now but damn daemon engines look cool.
2x venomcrawlers with this guy supporting them as they move up, are having himi stay back with 2 Forgefiends and a Master of Possession w/Cursed earth and Infernal Power (so 3+ re-rolling and 4++) or even 2 Defilers could be great.
I don't see this guy as a melee piece but a support piece at the moment; have to see what his full rules are.
On the bright side, this almost guarantees that there will be an updated Chaos Codex. Too many new things now (and who knows what else may come). Now that update could be in Vigilus part 2 or could be a full Codex, but something is definitely coming.
So, this doesn’t say “enemy vehicles” within 6”, so apparently this afflicts your own vehicles and if you’re lucky to have a daemon engine, offsets the penalty they would get to hit because they are vehicles too?
Did GW miss this or was it intended?
<EDIT: Nevermind - I hate the way GW worded this, it does only affect enemy vehicles.>
Stormonu wrote: So, this doesn’t say “enemy vehicles” within 6”, so apparently this afflicts your own vehicles and if you’re lucky to have a daemon engine, offsets the penalty they would get to hit because they are vehicles too?
Did GW miss this or was it intended?
my guess is it's not intended no,hopefully GW'll correct that in the final product
Decent model, has a big undivided or Khorne appeal to it. Not big on the model the name picks I like but misplaced though as 'Aura of Discord' and 'Lord Discordant' sounds more like an EC sonic thing. Maybe with heavy conversion and a lot of green stuff something cool can come about. It does have a Juggernaut appeal just more beefy. It feels kind of Necron'ish in relation to a Triarch Stalker though.
If he has the usual 4++ of a chaos lord and also the DAEMON keyword of the daemonic engine, he might be durable enough to survive with 10W+ ...or waste enough enemy fire to pay for himself.
Stormonu wrote: So, this doesn’t say “enemy vehicles” within 6”, so apparently this afflicts your own vehicles and if you’re lucky to have a daemon engine, offsets the penalty they would get to hit because they are vehicles too?
Did GW miss this or was it intended?
<EDIT: Nevermind - I hate the way GW worded this, it does only affect enemy vehicles.>
The way is wordedis important though, as it makes sure it can't ever stack.
If it's not super obnoxious priced (which it probably will be) I'll consider picking one up and chopping off 50% of the bits to make a Helwright on Dark Abeyant (a unit which is really strong and useful).
Pain4Pleasure wrote: That’s pretty decent and useful as long as units are placed correctly. However, things like dark reapers still say hello.
Not sure how Dark Reapers have any sort of advantage here. The rule gives YOUR Daemon Engines +1 to hit and ENEMY VEHICLES within 6" of the Lord -1 to hit.
So the -1 part of the rule only affects enemy vehicles that are super close to the model. Very situational
The +1 part of the rule is the only appealing part
-
I think hes just saying the rule is cool but something like dark reapers will still likely be able to kill it quickly
1. We do not know, since we don't know its rules or stats.
2. That's not much of an argument. Showcase pretty much anything and "the strongest shooting unit in this shooting based game can still kill it" will probably apply.
Im just translating what he meant yo
Thnanks for trying to translate for em man. He is correct. You get plus one? But I have you minus 2, 1 for alaitoc and 1 for conceal. You get -1? Reapers don’t care about modifiers, plus I guided them. Unit dies in a point, click, delete fashion. Throw in shining spears for good measure. My point was that this is awesome but unfortunately competetive wise not much in the way of progress, or enough progress I should say. But if you don’t care about competetive then this is fluffy and awesome. That’s what I was trying to make a point of.
And that I have one daemon engine under the 4++ bubble.
9 * .888 * .666 * .5 * 3 = 6 to 9 wounds.
That's a 306 point unit supported by 110+ points that couldn't kill one that is 130 points supported by 90. And that support is also boosting 5 other engines.
Meanwhile I cancel (for I presume 180ish points) one of your -1 (that you spent another 40 points to get). And the VCs who don't degrade on BS or suffer move penalties shoot - 6D3 S6+ AP3 shots and reroll 1s to hit and wound (the same 90- points of support) - kills 4 or 136 points.
And then I can potentially heal *all* of the wounds you just did to me.
Seems fairly viable to me - ynnari excluded. There are more challenging things than dark re thinking personal these days.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: I think it would be super weird if it wouldn't be 10+ wounds. It looks pretty massive.
I of course was assuming ynnari, who wouldn’t? Point being this helps chaos but.. it just still doesn’t reach Craftworld/drukhari standards, which are the standards we have to go off of. Oh, and of course castellan.
Stormonu wrote: So, this doesn’t say “enemy vehicles” within 6”, so apparently this afflicts your own vehicles and if you’re lucky to have a daemon engine, offsets the penalty they would get to hit because they are vehicles too?
Did GW miss this or was it intended?
<EDIT: Nevermind - I hate the way GW worded this, it does only affect enemy vehicles.>
The way is wordedis important though, as it makes sure it can't ever stack.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I of course was assuming ynnari, who wouldn’t? Point being this helps chaos but.. it just still doesn’t reach Craftworld/drukhari standards, which are the standards we have to go off of. Oh, and of course castellan.
Ynnari is not the standard to achieve - it's the standard to be nerfed. Castellan lists still need to shake out from assassin meta and whatever the FAQ might bring. There's more to the puzzle.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I of course was assuming ynnari, who wouldn’t? Point being this helps chaos but.. it just still doesn’t reach Craftworld/drukhari standards, which are the standards we have to go off of. Oh, and of course castellan.
Ynnari is not the standard to achieve - it's the standard to be nerfed. Castellan lists still need to shake out from assassin meta and whatever the FAQ might bring. There's more to the puzzle.
I doubt ynnari will be nerfed honestly. I also don’t feel it’s necessary. It’s fine where it is. Things can beat it, just have to work hard and play smart. Nothing wrong with that honestly.. just strategy and a competent commander
I'd love for Ynnari to be nerfed or even removed. As a non-soup Eldar player I suffer a lot of gripes, and unit cost changes etc....solely because Ynnari makes units broken/stupid.
Elbows wrote: I'd love for Ynnari to be nerfed or even removed. As a non-soup Eldar player I suffer a lot of gripes, and unit cost changes etc....solely because Ynnari makes units broken/stupid.
I mean, I’d never wish a faction that someone enjoys playing to simply be taken away.. necrons are literally my least favorite anything for 40k. Their look, play style, tends to even be the individuals that play them.. but I wouldn’t wish them gone. Kinda arrangant to want a whole faction wiped out/nerfed to oblivion. And you can’t blame ynnari for the eldar stigma. That’s been around since 5th edition.
Like the sound of him and a demon engine army. Not sure how I feel about the aesthetics though.. Looks like ad mech with a little bit of flesh on the maw of the monster.
Interested. Might not sell all of the shadowspear models I bough. Very happy chaos is getting piped up. Well done GW!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: I'd love for Ynnari to be nerfed or even removed. As a non-soup Eldar player I suffer a lot of gripes, and unit cost changes etc....solely because Ynnari makes units broken/stupid.
I play eldar craft world and I agree...
Ynnari isin't really an army/faction IMO. Its 1 kit with 3 models... 1 of which sees play. and its the newest thing the Eldar got kit wise?
Then again I would harlequins were rolled into Eldar Book... don't mind my ramblings.
Has there been any indication of whether TSons will get this guy?
Trying to decide whether to go Defilers or Predators for Heavy Support. Was leaning Predators for Kill Shot, but +1 to hit makes Defilers a lot more attractive...
Stux wrote: Has there been any indication of whether TSons will get this guy?
Trying to decide whether to go Defilers or Predators for Heavy Support. Was leaning Predators for Kill Shot, but +1 to hit makes Defilers a lot more attractive...
No indication but likely that Death Guard and Thousand Sons won't have access to him based on everything else they've done. He will have <LEGION> and you can't make that <DEATH GUARD> or <THOUSAND SONS>.
Stux wrote: Has there been any indication of whether TSons will get this guy?
Trying to decide whether to go Defilers or Predators for Heavy Support. Was leaning Predators for Kill Shot, but +1 to hit makes Defilers a lot more attractive...
No indication but likely that Death Guard and Thousand Sons won't have access to him based on everything else they've done. He will have <LEGION> and you can't make that <DEATH GUARD> or <THOUSAND SONS>.
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting to be honest... But you never know!
There is precedence for other large things having sub 10. Personally, I think if he's 10+ it's going to greatly lower how cool he is because he can get wiped off the board in one turn.
I am hoping he has 8. But I'm already thinking of using him with 2x Venomcrawlers advancing up, or 2x Forgefiends sitting in the backfield. There are a lot of potential now that we can make Daemon Engines good.
Stux wrote: Has there been any indication of whether TSons will get this guy?
Trying to decide whether to go Defilers or Predators for Heavy Support. Was leaning Predators for Kill Shot, but +1 to hit makes Defilers a lot more attractive...
No indication but likely that Death Guard and Thousand Sons won't have access to him based on everything else they've done. He will have <LEGION> and you can't make that <DEATH GUARD> or <THOUSAND SONS>.
As far as we can tell it isn't legion restricted so he can be in his own detachment and buff PBCs to a 3+.
Daedalus81 wrote: As far as we can tell it isn't legion restricted so he can be in his own detachment and buff PBCs to a 3+.
His "Aura of Discord" specifically says <LEGION> DAEMON ENGINE as well as stating the ability itself has to be on a friendly <LEGION> model. And you explicitly can't replace <LEGION> with <DEATH GUARD> at present.
Slap that Master of Possession to grant that +1 Inv. Sv. Spell on one of them.
It's a lot of points but did Decimators just become better?
It's 210 points for an 8 wound model that can be picked out and shot easily. But yes, it did become better, make it Tzeentch and you can get it to a 3++. Still not sure I'm thrilled about the cost for the amount of work it would be doing. Now if you went dual Butcher Cannons for 140 that's much more palatable and with Daemonforge is probably going to do a lot of work.
Daedalus81 wrote: As far as we can tell it isn't legion restricted so he can be in his own detachment and buff PBCs to a 3+.
His "Aura of Discord" specifically says <LEGION> DAEMON ENGINE as well as stating the ability itself has to be on a friendly <LEGION> model. And you explicitly can't replace <LEGION> with <DEATH GUARD> at present.
Wow I totally blanked that out. My poor Thousand Sons. Though I'm a little glad DG don't get it considering the implications there.
Daedalus81 wrote: As far as we can tell it isn't legion restricted so he can be in his own detachment and buff PBCs to a 3+.
His "Aura of Discord" specifically says <LEGION> DAEMON ENGINE as well as stating the ability itself has to be on a friendly <LEGION> model. And you explicitly can't replace <LEGION> with <DEATH GUARD> at present.
Agreed. To be allowed in Thousand Sons or Death Guard armies they'd need to either release alternate Datasheets, or a rule that explicitly overrides the normal rule for what Legion you can choose.
Slap that Master of Possession to grant that +1 Inv. Sv. Spell on one of them.
It's a lot of points but did Decimators just become better?
It's 210 points for an 8 wound model that can be picked out and shot easily. But yes, it did become better, make it Tzeentch and you can get it to a 3++. Still not sure I'm thrilled about the cost for the amount of work it would be doing. Now if you went dual Butcher Cannons for 140 that's much more palatable and with Daemonforge is probably going to do a lot of work.
Yeah, it's rather expensive. But it's the one thing the Decimator has over say, the Contemptor... The Contemptor is a better stand alone Butcher Cannon and C-Beam platform, and the melee version is cheaper. Also, it's not a Daemon Engine and suffers from a degrading profile, but it benefits from legion traits which can be a pretty big game changer.
PS : the Contemptor model is also cheaper and available in plastic.
Daedalus81 wrote: As far as we can tell it isn't legion restricted so he can be in his own detachment and buff PBCs to a 3+.
His "Aura of Discord" specifically says <LEGION> DAEMON ENGINE as well as stating the ability itself has to be on a friendly <LEGION> model. And you explicitly can't replace <LEGION> with <DEATH GUARD> at present.
Agreed. To be allowed in Thousand Sons or Death Guard armies they'd need to either release alternate Datasheets, or a rule that explicitly overrides the normal rule for what Legion you can choose.
Honestly, some of their datasheets are just a mess, like the Lords that Death Guard have for example. Giving access to this would hardly break anything.
Slap that Master of Possession to grant that +1 Inv. Sv. Spell on one of them.
It's a lot of points but did Decimators just become better?
It's 210 points for an 8 wound model that can be picked out and shot easily. But yes, it did become better, make it Tzeentch and you can get it to a 3++. Still not sure I'm thrilled about the cost for the amount of work it would be doing. Now if you went dual Butcher Cannons for 140 that's much more palatable and with Daemonforge is probably going to do a lot of work.
It is but tbh, from experience most of the CSM codex is either "You get turn 1 or lose" so I guess any amount of points is gonna go and If I can take out a Knight in a turn then I think its points well spent!
While this is a step in the right direction I still feel like I shouldn't have to take an expensive hq option to make my daemon engines not hot garbage. Not to mention my 1kson daemon engines will still be hot garbage since they won't be able to take the new unit. This is a bandaid fix and 90% of the daemon engines still need a rework. Here is hoping the rework the daemon engines as well.
The Salt Mine wrote: While this is a step in the right direction I still feel like I shouldn't have to take an expensive hq option to make my daemon engines not hot garbage. Not to mention my 1kson daemon engines will still be hot garbage since they won't be able to take the new unit. This is a bandaid fix and 90% of the daemon engines still need a rework. Here is hoping the rework the daemon engines as well.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.
Heldrake is a character kill and move blocker.
Forgefiend -
8 * .75 * .75 * .5 * 2 = 4.5 wounds to a knight for 148 points and 1 CP. A quadlas pred does less for 190.
Defiler w/ TLC and Havoc -
2 * .75 * .888 * .666 * 3.5 = 3.1
3.5 * .75 * .75 * .666 * 2 = 2.6
//5.7 to a knight for 166 points and 1 CP
Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.
Eihnlazer wrote: Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.
Eihnlazer wrote: Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.
Erm, what's stopping you from hiding him behind/ in the middle of a unit of normal jetbikers?
At some point you have to decide what the value of a CP is and if you can commit to spending on units that make great use of it.
For the record - 9 guided reapers do 8 wounds to a knight for 306 + 110. That's 40% more damage for 150% more points.
You are not really doing a whole lot to prove your case here man.
As far as the heldrake is concerned if you are playing against some one who has never been on the receiving end of a flyer character assassination before then by all means show them whats what. However, that has been a fairly common stratagem since the beginning of 8th and I will assume any competent general is going to screen his stuff and not let that happen. So at best we can say that 168 point model is blocking some movement AMAZING!
The Forgefiend does 4.5 wounds to a knight and not much better against other vehicles. The triple lascannon does way better against other vehicles that don't have good invulnerable saves. Not to mention we have the best anti knight tech in the game in the form of Deathhex. If you can't get deathhex off on the knight its a bad strategy to waste your firepower on it anyways. Also if I am running straight 1ksons I am strapped for CP since I can usually only fit maybe a battalion and a smaller detachment in. I have better things to spend my CP on than a unit that needs it just to be somewhat effective.
The defiler is more expensive requires a cp to work and still does worse than the contemptor at shooting. The problem with the defiler is it has to move up field to make use of those melee weapons if it does that its hitting on 5s or worse with all its guns. If it isn't moving up then you are paying a lot of points for not using those melee weapons. Now throw in the fact that contemptors benefit from legion traits and its not even a contest. Ill take the -1 to hit alpha legion trait over anything that the current daemon engines bring to the table.
Speaking of -1 to hit. That is another huge problem for all of our daemon engines. Minuses to hit is everywhere and it wrecks BS4+ stuff.
I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.
The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.
The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.
drbored wrote: I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.
The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.
The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.
Pretty much this. There are too many fundamental issues wrong with daemon engines right now. Points adjustments and expensive support characters are only going to go so far to fix them. I am really hoping all these Chaos model spoilers are hinting at a redo of the CSM codex and not just stuff that will be in the new Vigilus book.
The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.
But let me give a blast from the past and remind you all that this isn't a daemon engine problems, it's an 8th edition problem. This problem exists because of 1) Movement penalties to shooting heavy weapons 2) Ranged firepower increasing proportionally in 8th, so you give up more by not shooting, and you get blown up earlier by the opponent 3) Close combat power decreasing proportionally in 8th due to losing lock in combat, sweeping advance, rear armor hits, etc.
In 5th ed, we had a totally different paradigm. The defiler was absolutely terrifying in melee, unless you could tarpit it or something. Then, the downside of the defiler was that it was proportionally fragile due to having the same AV as a dreadnought. It's BS 4+ wasn't such a big downside because it had a battle cannon that did a large blast template. And it could move and shoot just fine.
And didn't the defiler have daemonic possession built in in 5th? (EDIT: Yes it did.) Immune to shaken and stunned in return for -1 BS? Well shaken and stunned no longer exist as mechanics, but we still have the -1 BS!
In 8th, it's a different sort of creature now because it's actually quite durable for its points. But still, my overall point is that, once again, we are getting screwed by unit design philosophy from an earlier edition where things were fundamentally different getting carried over to a new edition without enough adjustments to make up for the changes.
drbored wrote: I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.
The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.
The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.
Pretty much this. There are too many fundamental issues wrong with daemon engines right now. Points adjustments and expensive support characters are only going to go so far to fix them. I am really hoping all these Chaos model spoilers are hinting at a redo of the CSM codex and not just stuff that will be in the new Vigilus book.
On the flip side, I think there's too many fundamental BENEFITS to Astra Militarum tanks. They're basic tanks, point-and-click easy, AND they get a ton of buffs. The trouble is, GW isn't going to nerf one of their biggest selling armies. Adding things like the Lord Discordant, as has been said, is a step in the right direction, but they need some really strong follow-up with some point reductions, better stratagems, traits, etc to make them true contenders on the table.
The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.
Tyel wrote: The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.
Maybe they should bring back the Ordnance type. Vehicles and Monsters wouldn't get a penalty on Heavy weapons when moving, but they would still for Ordnance. So you wouldn't get a penalty on your Heavy Bolter but you would on an Earthshaker Cannon!
Tyel wrote: The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.
Maybe they should bring back the Ordnance type. Vehicles and Monsters wouldn't get a penalty on Heavy weapons when moving, but they would still for Ordnance. So you wouldn't get a penalty on your Heavy Bolter but you would on an Earthshaker Cannon!
Frankly your average Am tank is not much better then a daemon engine.
Main problem is however that they have traits unlike the daemon engine and are actually decently priced unlike the engines, which pay waaaaaaay to much for the melee weapons often.
Edit: Also so long you need to bring AT with you to deal with knights both are not going to survive.
I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.
It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.
Wayniac wrote: I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.
It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.
Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.
It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.
I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.
Wayniac wrote: I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.
It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.
Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.
It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.
I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.
That's an issue with how GW designed Knights in the first place. They really need an overhaul.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.
Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.
DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.
What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)
Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead
There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.
The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?
Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?
The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.
Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.
You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.
I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.
Eihnlazer wrote: Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.
Umm, then you’re doing them really wrong.
So using a character basically designed to tank an entire armies normal shooting to tank is wrong? Not seeing your logic here.
Erm, what's stopping you from hiding him behind/ in the middle of a unit of normal jetbikers?
I don't take normal bikers. While good, just not my style to bring more than 2 bikes to a game.
Wayniac wrote: I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.
It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.
Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.
It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.
I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.
That's an issue with how GW designed Knights in the first place. They really need an overhaul.
the Engines are in a good position. Ws/Bs 4+ is their only drawback, and now here comes our lord and savior. Couple it with the MoP for auras and an unfortunate warpsmith to offer his lifeforce twice every turn -one of them almost voluntarilly- would make them pretty much unkillable. I can see a huge deathball of defilers, maulerfiends, helldrakes and the characters smashing down the field.
what if the new character is a <WARPSMITH> and the MoP can suck him dry to heal the machines?
@Eihnlazer no character in the game is designed to “tank an entire army’s firepower”. Welcome to 8th edition. And the models that can get close to it are T8, 28 wounds with a 3++, not T6 7 wounds 3++.
Just to put it into perspective, a 192 pt Leman Russ tank commander with plasma cannon sponsons does 3.47 wounds to a bike captain, 2.31 with the 5+++ warlord trait WITHOUT ANY REROLLS. That means that 576 points, or 29% of a guard army can kill one in a single volley (19% for a non-warlord). If you’re sticking your bikes out that far it’s a wonder they aren’t getting obliterated every game.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.
Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.
DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.
What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)
Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead
There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.
The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?
Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?
The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.
Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.
You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.
I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.
I think they need something to help their BS. The Lord Discordant does that, so I'm actually pretty happy. I hope its enough. I'm gonna wait and see how he affects things before I whine more. I was attempting to explain how we got to the current situation. I suspect that there will still be issues after the Lord Discordant is out, but they will be issues with melee in general, not with Daemon Engines specifically.
I think my biggest problem with cc daemon engines is they suffer from the same thing that the entire space wolves army does, they are large, non-fly, non-infantry, vehicles that want to get into combat but get instantly stopped in their track when 10 guardsmen stand in front of them (which they will very likely fail to kill unless they pop daemonforge), or if enemies just stand on a box somewhere.
I don't think they should be bs3 base. They should however ignore the penalty to moving and shooting. That is not just a daemon thing it is an all vehicle thing IMO. That would go a long way to making them viable. Then we can start throwing in the expensive support characters. We shouldn't have to spend hundreds of points in support to take them from bad to ok. They should start out at ok and the support characters should make them good to great.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.
Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.
DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.
What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)
Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead
There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.
The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?
Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?
The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.
Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.
You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.
I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.
If someone read this in a vacuum they might think that the Defiler was actually good and that all the pro players were simply missing something...
But the fact of the matter is that they're still not good, I haven't seen one in a list in a year or more, and at the end of the day the Battle Tanks are taken. You said that the Defiler gets a lot of heals, repair, +1 invul, all of that stuff... but the LRBT gets improvements to their offensive capabilities, and in this alpha-strike shooting-meta, that's all that matters. You can have the toughest hide, but if you have zero punch, it just doesn't matter. You're not going to kill what you intend to kill. Presience, re-rolls to hit and wound.. that's a psychic power and a command point to give bonuses that LRBTs get (or close to it) with free orders. CPs, by the way, that you won't have a lot of because you took a Defiler in your list instead of more cultists.
A few other things to consider are the footprint that the Defiler has. It's huge, tall, impossible to hide. An LRBT you can hide behind most normal buildings on a battlefield and therefore hide from at least SOME of the opponent's shooting. The Defiler doesn't have that option. It can be shot from anywhere and everywhere... but y'know what happens? People ignore it for turn 1, focus their fire on more valuable things in your army, and then win the game because the Defiler never makes its points back.
If the Defiler was as good as you're saying, you'd think that you'd see... more of it? It has no synergy, other things do its job better, and to make it worthwhile you have to spend twice its cost on other units (sorcerer, CP, lord discordant) in order to make it work.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Defiler. It's one of my favorite models. Nothing would bring me more joy than to have people rage at me because I kicked their arse with an army full of daemon engines...
But unless we see some bigger changes, they're going to be left on shelves.
The Salt Mine wrote: I don't think they should be bs3 base. They should however ignore the penalty to moving and shooting. That is not just a daemon thing it is an all vehicle thing IMO. That would go a long way to making them viable. Then we can start throwing in the expensive support characters. We shouldn't have to spend hundreds of points in support to take them from bad to ok. They should start out at ok and the support characters should make them good to great.
Probably but some Daemon engines like the Decimator f.e. were always known to be accurate, that said overall i would agree with your sentiment.
If someone read this in a vacuum they might think that the Defiler was actually good and that all the pro players were simply missing something...
But the fact of the matter is that they're still not good, I haven't seen one in a list in a year or more, and at the end of the day the Battle Tanks are taken. You said that the Defiler gets a lot of heals, repair, +1 invul, all of that stuff... but the LRBT gets improvements to their offensive capabilities, and in this alpha-strike shooting-meta, that's all that matters. You can have the toughest hide, but if you have zero punch, it just doesn't matter. You're not going to kill what you intend to kill. Presience, re-rolls to hit and wound.. that's a psychic power and a command point to give bonuses that LRBTs get (or close to it) with free orders. CPs, by the way, that you won't have a lot of because you took a Defiler in your list instead of more cultists.
A few other things to consider are the footprint that the Defiler has. It's huge, tall, impossible to hide. An LRBT you can hide behind most normal buildings on a battlefield and therefore hide from at least SOME of the opponent's shooting. The Defiler doesn't have that option. It can be shot from anywhere and everywhere... but y'know what happens? People ignore it for turn 1, focus their fire on more valuable things in your army, and then win the game because the Defiler never makes its points back.
If the Defiler was as good as you're saying, you'd think that you'd see... more of it? It has no synergy, other things do its job better, and to make it worthwhile you have to spend twice its cost on other units (sorcerer, CP, lord discordant) in order to make it work.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Defiler. It's one of my favorite models. Nothing would bring me more joy than to have people rage at me because I kicked their arse with an army full of daemon engines...
But unless we see some bigger changes, they're going to be left on shelves.
First, just because units don't appear at top tables doesn't mean they're not good.
They don't get a lot of love, because they DO have to deal with -1 to hit and mobility problems. Daemonforge "fixes" only one engine at a time. The releases so far have been addressing these issues with - most importantly - area buffs.
There's a world of difference though between broken good/OP and just not making the cut, absolutely.
However, the base 4+ to hit for all the Daemon Engines was bad to begin with outside Maulerfiends, mostly because they were super cheap at 125 points when they were introduced.
Woah. Dude. Easy up on the initials. At least spell it out completly the first time. Its seams like you have something to say, but its completely unreadable.
I had to read it twice before I figured out DE ment deamon engine not Dark Eldar.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.
Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.
DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.
What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)
Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead
There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.
The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?
Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?
The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.
Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.
You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.
I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.
I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.
And not only that but because GW are garbage at writing rules, all the legion/chapter traits apply to FW dreadnaughts, but not to any of the daemon engines.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.
I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.
Forge World is in no means overpowered, what have you smoked, or when was the last time you saw any index army of FW.
90% of the Fw units are overpriced and for your Information the GW RULES TEAM HAS TAKEN OVER.
They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.
They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.
I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.
Forge World is in no means overpowered, what have you smoked, or when was the last time you saw any index army of FW.
90% of the Fw units are overpriced and for your Information the GW RULES TEAM HAS TAKEN OVER.
Edit: since 8th btw.
Swing and a miss.
No one is talking about index armies here, but nice straw man.
Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.
Danny slag wrote: Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.
I'm going to hypocrite a bit on this. I enjoy my Contemptors, they're good, not great, and if you lose first turn, they're probably shot off the table unless you can stash them entirely out of LoS.
That being said, if you look at top tournament lists, FW units do not appear very often. The data simply doesn't support the blanket conclusion that FW units are overpowered.
Also, as pointed out, GW is handling the FW rules, so if you intend to place blame, look no further than the designers responsible for the rest of the game.
No one is talking about index armies here, but nice straw man.
Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.
Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.
Incidentaly the dreadnoughts are some of the cheaper models.
Incidentaly you seem to suffer from short term memory loss and incidentaly the dreadnoughts are about 5% of their model line up.
But I am the one making a strawman, go figure.
Also trying to delegitimise an argument opposing yours by crying strawman is pathethic, especially when confronted with specific scenarios after making a broad generalization.
Danny slag wrote: Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.
I'm going to hypocrite a bit on this. I enjoy my Contemptors, they're good, not great, and if you lose first turn, they're probably shot off the table unless you can stash them entirely out of LoS.
That being said, if you look at top tournament lists, FW units do not appear very often. The data simply doesn't support the blanket conclusion that FW units are overpowered.
Also, as pointed out, GW is handling the FW rules, so if you intend to place blame, look no further than the designers responsible for the rest of the game.
I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.
"Everything forgeworld-related is too good"?
My Macharius, Malcador and Valdor wants a word...
They where OK pre-codex, but right now they're hot trash, only fielded because I like the model's.
Going from memory here:
1x Macharius Heavy Tank /w Macharius Battle Cannon, Twin. Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber and 2 Heavy Bolters = 372 pts.
Shoots 2x D6 S8 AP2 D: D6 shots, 6 S5 AP1 D1 shots and 9 S4 AP0 D1 shots. T8 3+ and 22 wounds.
2x Leman Russ Battle Tanks /w Battle Cannons, 3x Heavy Bolters each and a stormbolter is 336 pts.
Shoots 4x D6 S8 AP2 D: D3 shots, 18 S5 AP1 D1 shots and 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots. T8, 3+ and 2x12 (24) wounds.
The Russes are 36 pts cheaper, fire twice as many battlecannon-shots (albeit D: D3 instead of D: D6), thrice as many heavy bolter-shots and are slightly harder to kill.
- - - -
1x Malcador Infernus /w it's maingun (forgot it's name) and 2 Heavy Flamers = 340 pts.
Shoots 2x D6 S7 AP2 D: D3 and 2x D6 S5 AP1 D1. T8 3+ and 18 wounds.
3x Hellhounds /w Inferno Cannon and Heavy Flamer = 321 pts.
Shoots 6x D6 S6 AP1 D1 and 3x D6 S5 AP1 D11. T7 3+ and 3x11 (33) wounds.
The Hellhounds loose out on one point of T, one point of AP and D: D3 on their maingun, but compensates by scoring more than thrice as many hits, and by having almost twice the amount of Hull Points, all while being slightly cheaper.
- - - -
I'm not even gonna bother comparing the Valdor to a Shadowsword...
FW/GW could easily shave off 75-100 points on each FW-tank and they would still be sub-par to their codex counterparts...
Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.
That's because those are all marine units, and marines are garbage. You also get told to just take a detachment of guard instead too.
That's fair, but it really sucks for the all FW armies, like, it makes it almost no fun to play them because it's just shooting yourself in the foot and then both of your arms.
Smirrors wrote: Yeah I believe that FW stuff shouldn't ever be at the highest tier when it comes to competitive. So most of the rules are intentionally bad or subpar
What a bollocks attitude to balance.
The goal should be that all armies are in a place where you actually can play them with a fair chance of winning, before player skill comes in.
Actively missbalancing does not help anyone.
If you'll notice, a lot of the people that think FW is OP in any sense are the same people that tell you to talk the game out with your opponent as well and not playing core 40k, even though FW is core 40k.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you'll notice, a lot of the people that think FW is OP in any sense are the same people that tell you to talk the game out with your opponent as well and not playing core 40k, even though FW is core 40k.
This isn't about houserules though, which might or might not help, this is about the framework GW in all it's glory profides whihc is ATM out of the perspective of armies unbalanced for GK , and any Index FW army which the GW rulesteam now also is balancing.
Also making a narrative campagin, which can be enourmusly funny kinda does require you to talk to people.
