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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.

Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.

DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.

What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)

Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead

There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.

The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?

Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?

The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.

Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.

You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.

I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.

If someone read this in a vacuum they might think that the Defiler was actually good and that all the pro players were simply missing something...

But the fact of the matter is that they're still not good, I haven't seen one in a list in a year or more, and at the end of the day the Battle Tanks are taken. You said that the Defiler gets a lot of heals, repair, +1 invul, all of that stuff... but the LRBT gets improvements to their offensive capabilities, and in this alpha-strike shooting-meta, that's all that matters. You can have the toughest hide, but if you have zero punch, it just doesn't matter. You're not going to kill what you intend to kill. Presience, re-rolls to hit and wound.. that's a psychic power and a command point to give bonuses that LRBTs get (or close to it) with free orders. CPs, by the way, that you won't have a lot of because you took a Defiler in your list instead of more cultists.

A few other things to consider are the footprint that the Defiler has. It's huge, tall, impossible to hide. An LRBT you can hide behind most normal buildings on a battlefield and therefore hide from at least SOME of the opponent's shooting. The Defiler doesn't have that option. It can be shot from anywhere and everywhere... but y'know what happens? People ignore it for turn 1, focus their fire on more valuable things in your army, and then win the game because the Defiler never makes its points back.

If the Defiler was as good as you're saying, you'd think that you'd see... more of it? It has no synergy, other things do its job better, and to make it worthwhile you have to spend twice its cost on other units (sorcerer, CP, lord discordant) in order to make it work.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Defiler. It's one of my favorite models. Nothing would bring me more joy than to have people rage at me because I kicked their arse with an army full of daemon engines...

But unless we see some bigger changes, they're going to be left on shelves.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I don't think they should be bs3 base. They should however ignore the penalty to moving and shooting. That is not just a daemon thing it is an all vehicle thing IMO. That would go a long way to making them viable. Then we can start throwing in the expensive support characters. We shouldn't have to spend hundreds of points in support to take them from bad to ok. They should start out at ok and the support characters should make them good to great.

Probably but some Daemon engines like the Decimator f.e. were always known to be accurate, that said overall i would agree with your sentiment.

drbored wrote:

If someone read this in a vacuum they might think that the Defiler was actually good and that all the pro players were simply missing something...

But the fact of the matter is that they're still not good, I haven't seen one in a list in a year or more, and at the end of the day the Battle Tanks are taken. You said that the Defiler gets a lot of heals, repair, +1 invul, all of that stuff... but the LRBT gets improvements to their offensive capabilities, and in this alpha-strike shooting-meta, that's all that matters. You can have the toughest hide, but if you have zero punch, it just doesn't matter. You're not going to kill what you intend to kill. Presience, re-rolls to hit and wound.. that's a psychic power and a command point to give bonuses that LRBTs get (or close to it) with free orders. CPs, by the way, that you won't have a lot of because you took a Defiler in your list instead of more cultists.

A few other things to consider are the footprint that the Defiler has. It's huge, tall, impossible to hide. An LRBT you can hide behind most normal buildings on a battlefield and therefore hide from at least SOME of the opponent's shooting. The Defiler doesn't have that option. It can be shot from anywhere and everywhere... but y'know what happens? People ignore it for turn 1, focus their fire on more valuable things in your army, and then win the game because the Defiler never makes its points back.

If the Defiler was as good as you're saying, you'd think that you'd see... more of it? It has no synergy, other things do its job better, and to make it worthwhile you have to spend twice its cost on other units (sorcerer, CP, lord discordant) in order to make it work.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Defiler. It's one of my favorite models. Nothing would bring me more joy than to have people rage at me because I kicked their arse with an army full of daemon engines...

But unless we see some bigger changes, they're going to be left on shelves.

First, just because units don't appear at top tables doesn't mean they're not good.

They don't get a lot of love, because they DO have to deal with -1 to hit and mobility problems. Daemonforge "fixes" only one engine at a time. The releases so far have been addressing these issues with - most importantly - area buffs.

There's a world of difference though between broken good/OP and just not making the cut, absolutely.

However, the base 4+ to hit for all the Daemon Engines was bad to begin with outside Maulerfiends, mostly because they were super cheap at 125 points when they were introduced.

Woah. Dude. Easy up on the initials. At least spell it out completly the first time. Its seams like you have something to say, but its completely unreadable.

I had to read it twice before I figured out DE ment deamon engine not Dark Eldar.

The Salt Mine wrote:

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.

I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.

And not only that but because GW are garbage at writing rules, all the legion/chapter traits apply to FW dreadnaughts, but not to any of the daemon engines.

Danny slag wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.

I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.

Forge World is in no means overpowered, what have you smoked, or when was the last time you saw any index army of FW.
90% of the Fw units are overpriced and for your Information the GW RULES TEAM HAS TAKEN OVER.

Edit: since 8th btw.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.

I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.

Forge World is in no means overpowered, what have you smoked, or when was the last time you saw any index army of FW.
90% of the Fw units are overpriced and for your Information the GW RULES TEAM HAS TAKEN OVER.

Edit: since 8th btw.

Swing and a miss.

No one is talking about index armies here, but nice straw man.

Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.

Danny slag wrote:
Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.

I'm going to hypocrite a bit on this. I enjoy my Contemptors, they're good, not great, and if you lose first turn, they're probably shot off the table unless you can stash them entirely out of LoS.

That being said, if you look at top tournament lists, FW units do not appear very often. The data simply doesn't support the blanket conclusion that FW units are overpowered.

Also, as pointed out, GW is handling the FW rules, so if you intend to place blame, look no further than the designers responsible for the rest of the game.

Swing and a miss.

No one is talking about index armies here, but nice straw man.

Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.

Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.

Incidentaly the dreadnoughts are some of the cheaper models.
Incidentaly you seem to suffer from short term memory loss and incidentaly the dreadnoughts are about 5% of their model line up.
But I am the one making a strawman, go figure.
Also trying to delegitimise an argument opposing yours by crying strawman is pathethic, especially when confronted with specific scenarios after making a broad generalization.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.

I'm going to hypocrite a bit on this. I enjoy my Contemptors, they're good, not great, and if you lose first turn, they're probably shot off the table unless you can stash them entirely out of LoS.

That being said, if you look at top tournament lists, FW units do not appear very often. The data simply doesn't support the blanket conclusion that FW units are overpowered.

Also, as pointed out, GW is handling the FW rules, so if you intend to place blame, look no further than the designers responsible for the rest of the game.

Also this.

Dreadnoughts aren't overpowered, the rest of the units are rubbish.

Danny slag wrote:

I agree there is something wrong with them, but i think it's less that daemon engines are bad, and more that there are other things which are far far too good. Basically everything forgeworld specifically. Forgeworld dreadnoughts are their biggest seller, and why wouldn't they be when you can get a unit with an invuln save, 2+ to hit, and great weapons for about 10 points more than a unit with a terrible degrading stat-line and 4+ to hit. Forgeworld being expensive and being overpowered is not a coincidence in my opinion, and that's terrible for balance.

"Everything forgeworld-related is too good"?

My Macharius, Malcador and Valdor wants a word...
They where OK pre-codex, but right now they're hot trash, only fielded because I like the model's.

Going from memory here:

1x Macharius Heavy Tank /w Macharius Battle Cannon, Twin. Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber and 2 Heavy Bolters = 372 pts.
Shoots 2x D6 S8 AP2 D: D6 shots, 6 S5 AP1 D1 shots and 9 S4 AP0 D1 shots. T8 3+ and 22 wounds.

2x Leman Russ Battle Tanks /w Battle Cannons, 3x Heavy Bolters each and a stormbolter is 336 pts.
Shoots 4x D6 S8 AP2 D: D3 shots, 18 S5 AP1 D1 shots and 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots. T8, 3+ and 2x12 (24) wounds.

The Russes are 36 pts cheaper, fire twice as many battlecannon-shots (albeit D: D3 instead of D: D6), thrice as many heavy bolter-shots and are slightly harder to kill.

- - - -

1x Malcador Infernus /w it's maingun (forgot it's name) and 2 Heavy Flamers = 340 pts.
Shoots 2x D6 S7 AP2 D: D3 and 2x D6 S5 AP1 D1. T8 3+ and 18 wounds.

3x Hellhounds /w Inferno Cannon and Heavy Flamer = 321 pts.
Shoots 6x D6 S6 AP1 D1 and 3x D6 S5 AP1 D11. T7 3+ and 3x11 (33) wounds.

The Hellhounds loose out on one point of T, one point of AP and D: D3 on their maingun, but compensates by scoring more than thrice as many hits, and by having almost twice the amount of Hull Points, all while being slightly cheaper.

- - - -

I'm not even gonna bother comparing the Valdor to a Shadowsword...

FW/GW could easily shave off 75-100 points on each FW-tank and they would still be sub-par to their codex counterparts...

You've literally picked the best units in FW and claim they are all overpowered :p

The only guard one being used is the Vulture and it is on par with a Punisher Leman Russ.

Danny slag wrote:


Tell me again how many tactics discussions end with "get rid of all that and take contemptors deredos, and leviathan dreadnoughts." many of them. That's literally the standard advice if you go into any of the tactics threads for armies who can take those units. Every unit get's compared to FW dreads, and the standard advice is that there's no reason to spend points on something when you could have spent it on a FW dread instead.

That's because those are all marine units, and marines are garbage. You also get told to just take a detachment of guard instead too.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
You also get told to just take a detachment of guard instead too.

The most common one is bring a Knight. Its not just FW problem.

Arguably FW is the best its ever been with it mostly being used for fluff than competitive gaming.

Arguably FW is the best its ever been with it mostly being used for fluff than competitive gaming.

I suppose best at making bad stuff

Yeah I believe that FW stuff shouldn't ever be at the highest tier when it comes to competitive. So most of the rules are intentionally bad or subpar

That's fair, but it really sucks for the all FW armies, like, it makes it almost no fun to play them because it's just shooting yourself in the foot and then both of your arms.

 Smirrors wrote:
Yeah I believe that FW stuff shouldn't ever be at the highest tier when it comes to competitive. So most of the rules are intentionally bad or subpar

What a bollocks attitude to balance.
The goal should be that all armies are in a place where you actually can play them with a fair chance of winning, before player skill comes in.
Actively missbalancing does not help anyone.

If you'll notice, a lot of the people that think FW is OP in any sense are the same people that tell you to talk the game out with your opponent as well and not playing core 40k, even though FW is core 40k.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you'll notice, a lot of the people that think FW is OP in any sense are the same people that tell you to talk the game out with your opponent as well and not playing core 40k, even though FW is core 40k.

This isn't about houserules though, which might or might not help, this is about the framework GW in all it's glory profides whihc is ATM out of the perspective of armies unbalanced for GK , and any Index FW army which the GW rulesteam now also is balancing.

Also making a narrative campagin, which can be enourmusly funny kinda does require you to talk to people.