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While this is a step in the right direction I still feel like I shouldn't have to take an expensive hq option to make my daemon engines not hot garbage. Not to mention my 1kson daemon engines will still be hot garbage since they won't be able to take the new unit. This is a bandaid fix and 90% of the daemon engines still need a rework. Here is hoping the rework the daemon engines as well.

The Salt Mine wrote:
While this is a step in the right direction I still feel like I shouldn't have to take an expensive hq option to make my daemon engines not hot garbage. Not to mention my 1kson daemon engines will still be hot garbage since they won't be able to take the new unit. This is a bandaid fix and 90% of the daemon engines still need a rework. Here is hoping the rework the daemon engines as well.

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

 chimeara wrote:
So, this guy makes my Decimators and Kytan Ravager hit on 2's. That I can get behind.

And blood slaughterers!

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.

The Salt Mine wrote:

They're already reasonably cheap. Non-daemonkin can still be effective with small numbers of DE. Daemonkin are the ones who can run them on the move and in your face.

They are not relatively cheap when they can not perform the job they are supposed to do. The forgefiend is terrible at shooting. The heldrake is to expensive for something that can only really tie something up in cc. The maulerfiend is ok if it manages to make it up the field. I always forget the defiler even exists its that bad. The only good daemon engines are the Forgeworld and Death Guard ones. However, if we are taking FW into account contemptors pretty much do everything daemon engines do but better. As I said I am hoping they get a bit of a rework.

Heldrake is a character kill and move blocker.

Forgefiend -
8 * .75 * .75 * .5 * 2 = 4.5 wounds to a knight for 148 points and 1 CP. A quadlas pred does less for 190.

Defiler w/ TLC and Havoc -
2 * .75 * .888 * .666 * 3.5 = 3.1
3.5 * .75 * .75 * .666 * 2 = 2.6
//5.7 to a knight for 166 points and 1 CP

Contemptor w/ Double Butcher -
8 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3.3 for 138 points

Defiler - 14 wounds heals 1
Contemptor - 10 wounds - can't be healed by any other means other than melee

Defiler - 4 WS4 S16 attack AP3 D6D attacks
Contemptor - 4 WS2 S7 pillow fists

At some point you have to decide what the value of a CP is and if you can commit to spending on units that make great use of it.

For the record - 9 guided reapers do 8 wounds to a knight for 306 + 110. That's 40% more damage for 150% more points.

Honestly this make decimators legit broken. I am not at all excited about seeing them in tournaments as a custodes player.

They basically one shot a biker captain now, which is pretty lame.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Honestly this make decimators legit broken. I am not at all excited about seeing them in tournaments as a custodes player.

They basically one shot a biker captain now, which is pretty lame.

With soulburners? They can't target characters straight up and you have -1 to hit usually.

If people had really wanted to they could have taken Decimators with Abaddon, but no one does, because it's too vulnerable.

Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.

Umm, then you’re doing them really wrong.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.

Erm, what's stopping you from hiding him behind/ in the middle of a unit of normal jetbikers?

Heldrake is a character kill and move blocker.

Forgefiend -
8 * .75 * .75 * .5 * 2 = 4.5 wounds to a knight for 148 points and 1 CP. A quadlas pred does less for 190.

Defiler w/ TLC and Havoc -
2 * .75 * .888 * .666 * 3.5 = 3.1
3.5 * .75 * .75 * .666 * 2 = 2.6
//5.7 to a knight for 166 points and 1 CP

Contemptor w/ Double Butcher -
8 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3.3 for 138 points

Defiler - 14 wounds heals 1
Contemptor - 10 wounds - can't be healed by any other means other than melee

Defiler - 4 WS4 S16 attack AP3 D6D attacks
Contemptor - 4 WS2 S7 pillow fists

At some point you have to decide what the value of a CP is and if you can commit to spending on units that make great use of it.

For the record - 9 guided reapers do 8 wounds to a knight for 306 + 110. That's 40% more damage for 150% more points.

You are not really doing a whole lot to prove your case here man.

As far as the heldrake is concerned if you are playing against some one who has never been on the receiving end of a flyer character assassination before then by all means show them whats what. However, that has been a fairly common stratagem since the beginning of 8th and I will assume any competent general is going to screen his stuff and not let that happen. So at best we can say that 168 point model is blocking some movement AMAZING!

The Forgefiend does 4.5 wounds to a knight and not much better against other vehicles. The triple lascannon does way better against other vehicles that don't have good invulnerable saves. Not to mention we have the best anti knight tech in the game in the form of Deathhex. If you can't get deathhex off on the knight its a bad strategy to waste your firepower on it anyways. Also if I am running straight 1ksons I am strapped for CP since I can usually only fit maybe a battalion and a smaller detachment in. I have better things to spend my CP on than a unit that needs it just to be somewhat effective.

The defiler is more expensive requires a cp to work and still does worse than the contemptor at shooting. The problem with the defiler is it has to move up field to make use of those melee weapons if it does that its hitting on 5s or worse with all its guns. If it isn't moving up then you are paying a lot of points for not using those melee weapons. Now throw in the fact that contemptors benefit from legion traits and its not even a contest. Ill take the -1 to hit alpha legion trait over anything that the current daemon engines bring to the table.

Speaking of -1 to hit. That is another huge problem for all of our daemon engines. Minuses to hit is everywhere and it wrecks BS4+ stuff.

I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.

The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.

The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.

drbored wrote:
I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.

The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.

The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.

Pretty much this. There are too many fundamental issues wrong with daemon engines right now. Points adjustments and expensive support characters are only going to go so far to fix them. I am really hoping all these Chaos model spoilers are hinting at a redo of the CSM codex and not just stuff that will be in the new Vigilus book.

The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.

But let me give a blast from the past and remind you all that this isn't a daemon engine problems, it's an 8th edition problem. This problem exists because of 1) Movement penalties to shooting heavy weapons 2) Ranged firepower increasing proportionally in 8th, so you give up more by not shooting, and you get blown up earlier by the opponent 3) Close combat power decreasing proportionally in 8th due to losing lock in combat, sweeping advance, rear armor hits, etc.

In 5th ed, we had a totally different paradigm. The defiler was absolutely terrifying in melee, unless you could tarpit it or something. Then, the downside of the defiler was that it was proportionally fragile due to having the same AV as a dreadnought. It's BS 4+ wasn't such a big downside because it had a battle cannon that did a large blast template. And it could move and shoot just fine.

And didn't the defiler have daemonic possession built in in 5th? (EDIT: Yes it did.) Immune to shaken and stunned in return for -1 BS? Well shaken and stunned no longer exist as mechanics, but we still have the -1 BS!

In 8th, it's a different sort of creature now because it's actually quite durable for its points. But still, my overall point is that, once again, we are getting screwed by unit design philosophy from an earlier edition where things were fundamentally different getting carried over to a new edition without enough adjustments to make up for the changes.

The Salt Mine wrote:

drbored wrote:
I don't think the Lord Discordant is going to magically make daemon engines competitive, but it will make them better. Running things like Defilers up the table that, as was said, get 5+s to hit because it moved to suddenly getting 4+'s to hit even if he moves, is pretty nice.

The big reason that people harp on Daemon Engines is because Astra Militarum have tanks that outperform them for less. Those tanks also hit on 4's, but y'know what else they do?
A. They don't pay a tax for melee weapons that they won't use half the time
B. They get to shoot twice if they move under half
C. They benefit from orders from tank commanders that are in the same tank that you want anyway
D. They benefit from Regimental Doctrines that actually help vehicles in a big way, whereas Astartes (of both flavors) have crap chapter/legion traits and none of them affect vehicles.

The balance problem is so glaringly obvious but it would take a whole re-work of the Chaos Marine Codex to fix, from traits to stratagems to aura buffs and to the abilities that these daemon engines have inherently. A 5+ invul save does not compare to getting double-shots, re-rolls to hit, orders, and all the other stuff that astra militarum gets for similar point cost.

Pretty much this. There are too many fundamental issues wrong with daemon engines right now. Points adjustments and expensive support characters are only going to go so far to fix them. I am really hoping all these Chaos model spoilers are hinting at a redo of the CSM codex and not just stuff that will be in the new Vigilus book.

On the flip side, I think there's too many fundamental BENEFITS to Astra Militarum tanks. They're basic tanks, point-and-click easy, AND they get a ton of buffs. The trouble is, GW isn't going to nerf one of their biggest selling armies. Adding things like the Lord Discordant, as has been said, is a step in the right direction, but they need some really strong follow-up with some point reductions, better stratagems, traits, etc to make them true contenders on the table.

The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.

Maybe they should bring back the Ordnance type. Vehicles and Monsters wouldn't get a penalty on Heavy weapons when moving, but they would still for Ordnance. So you wouldn't get a penalty on your Heavy Bolter but you would on an Earthshaker Cannon!

 Stux wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a 5++ used to be valuable but increasingly all new models seem to get it for free.
Also I increasingly think all monsters/vehicles should ignore the rules for Heavy weapons. Because that also seems to be handed out for free on new stuff.

Maybe they should bring back the Ordnance type. Vehicles and Monsters wouldn't get a penalty on Heavy weapons when moving, but they would still for Ordnance. So you wouldn't get a penalty on your Heavy Bolter but you would on an Earthshaker Cannon!

Frankly your average Am tank is not much better then a daemon engine.
Main problem is however that they have traits unlike the daemon engine and are actually decently priced unlike the engines, which pay waaaaaaay to much for the melee weapons often.


Edit: Also so long you need to bring AT with you to deal with knights both are not going to survive.

I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.

It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.

Wayniac wrote:
I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.

It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.

Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.

It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.

I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.

It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.

Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.

It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.

I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.

That's an issue with how GW designed Knights in the first place. They really need an overhaul.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.

Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.

DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.

What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)

Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead

There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.

The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?

Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?

The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.

Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.

You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.

I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Shield captains on bikes are usually up front and ahead of the rest of your custodes force. So no, usually wont have -1 to hit on them or character protection.

Umm, then you’re doing them really wrong.

So using a character basically designed to tank an entire armies normal shooting to tank is wrong? Not seeing your logic here.

Erm, what's stopping you from hiding him behind/ in the middle of a unit of normal jetbikers?

I don't take normal bikers. While good, just not my style to bring more than 2 bikes to a game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I honestly think all vehicles need to be able to move and fire without penalty. But yeah the daemon engines are meant to sacrifice a bit of their role to be better in melee than a tank.

It just doesn't work that well with the way 40k plays. What they bring is often nothing special to justify taking them.

Well they WOULD bring durability, atleast with their self regeneartion and 5++ , problem is, they are not more durable enough to be fielded in a Meta with Knights in it.

It also does not help that they are more generalistic then regular tanks and therefore suffer from that aswell.

I think it would be hightime to allow heavy weapons to be fired without a penalty though.

That's an issue with how GW designed Knights in the first place. They really need an overhaul.

Not gonna argue that.

the Engines are in a good position. Ws/Bs 4+ is their only drawback, and now here comes our lord and savior. Couple it with the MoP for auras and an unfortunate warpsmith to offer his lifeforce twice every turn -one of them almost voluntarilly- would make them pretty much unkillable. I can see a huge deathball of defilers, maulerfiends, helldrakes and the characters smashing down the field.

what if the new character is a <WARPSMITH> and the MoP can suck him dry to heal the machines?

topaxygouroun i wrote:


what if the new character is a <WARPSMITH> and the MoP can suck him dry to heal the machines?

That would be ace.

Daemon Engine armies will be low CP, but I think they can handle that. Haywire is the next biggest issue.

It will all come down to the cost of this guy and whether or not he's a sideways GMDK.

@Eihnlazer no character in the game is designed to “tank an entire army’s firepower”. Welcome to 8th edition. And the models that can get close to it are T8, 28 wounds with a 3++, not T6 7 wounds 3++.
Just to put it into perspective, a 192 pt Leman Russ tank commander with plasma cannon sponsons does 3.47 wounds to a bike captain, 2.31 with the 5+++ warlord trait WITHOUT ANY REROLLS. That means that 576 points, or 29% of a guard army can kill one in a single volley (19% for a non-warlord). If you’re sticking your bikes out that far it’s a wonder they aren’t getting obliterated every game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The point of Daemon engines is people are supposed to be afraid of them getting into melee. They'll krump tanks and even some knights real good in melee, point for point. But then you have the paradox that if you go for melee, it wrecks their shooting. And if you sit and shoot, you're wasting all those points spent on melee weapons and stats. This is a similar problem to what marines face overall.

Which is exactly why a +1 to hit lets them scoot and shoot without penalty.

DE are more durable than LRBT in this meta.

What happens when Raven Cawls Wrath shoots LRBT? 7 * .777 * .777 * 3 = 13 wounds (a dead tank)
And vs a DE? 7 * .777 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 8.4 (not dead)

Volcano? 12.7 vs 11 - or dead vs not dead

There is very little S8 floating around these days or S4 anti-tank for that matter.

The Defiler is 120 points with BC included. That means it pays 98 points for it's body. The LRBT pays 122. The predator pays 90 for less wounds and no invulnerable or heal. Where's the melee weapon tax?

Let's assume for a moment that there is a weapon tax. A helbrute fist is 30 S14 AP3 D3. The Defiler claw is better at S16, but 30 points it is. That makes the body 68 points. 68 points for 14 wounds. Do you really, honestly, truly think the Defiler is over paying when it costs 8 points more than a helbrute, but is forced into melee weapons at the same cost?

The LRBT loaded with LC has the same weapons as the Defiler save for double tap. The LRBT is 170 and the Defiler is 166 or 172. So LRBTs get an extra 4.5 shots of the BC (Catachan), which is an extra 2 wounds on T7 and 1.5 on T8. A defiler does 1.6 + 1.9 to T7. With Forge on it does 3.1 + 3.9, which almost doubles the advantage of the LRBT for one use. The same applies against T8.

Never mind +1 to hit bubble, prescience, reroll 1s to hit and wound, +1 invuln bubble, flickering flames, and heals/repair - things an LRBT will never have.

You think DE need a buff to BS3? That would make them BS2 with discordant. That's crazy. You think Defilers should perhaps double tap while being tougher at the same points with melee to boot? Also crazy.

I can guarantee that Daemon Engines will not receive any buffs to their stats.

I think they need something to help their BS. The Lord Discordant does that, so I'm actually pretty happy. I hope its enough. I'm gonna wait and see how he affects things before I whine more. I was attempting to explain how we got to the current situation. I suspect that there will still be issues after the Lord Discordant is out, but they will be issues with melee in general, not with Daemon Engines specifically.

I think my biggest problem with cc daemon engines is they suffer from the same thing that the entire space wolves army does, they are large, non-fly, non-infantry, vehicles that want to get into combat but get instantly stopped in their track when 10 guardsmen stand in front of them (which they will very likely fail to kill unless they pop daemonforge), or if enemies just stand on a box somewhere.

I don't think they should be bs3 base. They should however ignore the penalty to moving and shooting. That is not just a daemon thing it is an all vehicle thing IMO. That would go a long way to making them viable. Then we can start throwing in the expensive support characters. We shouldn't have to spend hundreds of points in support to take them from bad to ok. They should start out at ok and the support characters should make them good to great.