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Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 17:37:06


Post by: RevlidRas


I've only just started noticing a proliferation of alien names no-one cares about or can easily remember. To clarify, I'm talking about weird made-up words in place of actual, memorable phrases, primarily for factions.

For example, I remember Space Marine Chapters. The Salamanders, the White Scars, the Iron Hands - these are actual names which evoke the appearance and nature of these groups. The same goes for Chaos Legions, Ork Clans, Sororitas Orders, Genestealer Cults, and Drukhari Kabals. Even Tyranid Hive Fleets at least use actual mythological names which somewhat relate to their modus operandi, and all the Astra Militarum regiments employ some combination of obvious reference or helpful subtitle; Krieg literally means "War", and comes with a suffix of "Death Corps". Valhallan is a Nordic afterlife, and appends "Ice Warriors". Catachan Jungle Fighters. Mordian Iron Guard. Armaggedon Steel Legion.

Then we get to T'au and Necrons, and I'm left to wonder: what exactly is a Bor'kan? Novokh, Nihilakh, Mephrit, and Sautekh may be perfectly good Sailor Moon villains, but I don't know why anyone would expect me to remember them or associate them with... whatever they each do. These don't have the Craftworld excuse of being grandfathered in, either; they were made up (or made relevant, I should say) pretty recently for the whole <Faction> conceit. T'au are especially aggravating, because they've been playing the subfaction game since their inception, and they did it right: everyone remembers the Farsight Enclaves, which have a straightforward, evocative name that manages to avoid using even a single apostrophe or made-up alien word. I kind of doubt that the O'Shovah Shan'al would roll off the tongue or stick in the mind in the same way.

T'au also get into this with their units, albeit mainly thanks to Forge World. Crisis Battlesuit? Cool. Broadside Battlesuit? Cool and informative. Stealth Battlesuit? Boring, but straightforward. Newer suits like the Ghostkeel and Riptide also follow this pattern. So how come I'm also being presented with R'varna, Ta'unar, and Y'vahra suits? Why have Shas'o R'alai and Shas'o R'myr joined the ranks of "Commander Shadowsun"? There's a reason the Dire Avengers aren't called Fian Dialcaman Squads. Daemons are guilty in some places; I don't know who thought it was a good idea to start naming characters things like Aetaos’rau’keres, but they seriously need to stop.

Eldar Craftworlds at least have some solid epithets that should really see more use: I wouldn't object in the least if Swordwind, Wild Host, Starstriders, and Ghost Warriors overtook Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, and Iyanden in common use. Are there any known translations or epithets for the made-up names of the T'au or Necron Factions? Are there any other names that could really do with a catchy English subtitle?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 18:37:51


Post by: Peregrine


TL;DR: non-human factions dont follow human cultural conventions in naming.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 18:39:58


Post by: pm713


Really if we want to talk about weird naming then we should be talking about Aeldari, Drukhari, T'au, Astra Militarum and all that rubbish.

I always thought Necrons were meant to sound Egyptian on account of how newcrons are just tomb kings.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 18:40:24


Post by: Imateria


Complaining that alien cultures are using alien names is truly dumb.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 18:42:57


Post by: Sterling191


Yes, how dare a fictional setting embrace fictional names for their fictional factions. The horror.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 19:17:48


Post by: Sleep Spell


I guess the other extreme would be the Space Wolf, Canis Wolfborn, wielding wolf claws and riding his Thunderwolf into battle.

Also the fact that the Farsight Enclave is the most close combat oriented doesn't really fit the name=modus operandi scheme... but having the alien name and a moniker used by imperial troops to classify their opponents would be entertaining, fluff wise.



Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 19:20:44


Post by: Bellerophon


RevlidRas wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds at least have some solid epithets that should really see more use: I wouldn't object in the least if Swordwind, Wild Host, Starstriders, and Ghost Warriors overtook Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, and Iyanden in common use.

GW already fractured our Craftworld, don't try to take our name away too.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 20:21:59


Post by: Bharring


Swordwind, Wild Host, Starstriders, and Ghost Warriors are warhosts, not craftworlds. Every Craftworld can produce Ghost Warriors or Swordwind.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 20:52:57


Post by: Galas


Tyranids names are 100% imperial both the fleets and the units.



Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 21:22:48


Post by: Crazy Jay


I actually agree with OP. I have a hard time embracing the “alien” factions because of their naming schemes just don’t stick in my mind. The only xenos I play is nids and he’s right, the hive fleets have human terms.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 21:25:18


Post by: Octopoid


Crazy Jay wrote:
I actually agree with OP. I have a hard time embracing the “alien” factions because of their naming schemes just don’t stick in my mind. The only xenos I play is nids and he’s right, the hive fleets have human terms.


That's because no one has ever talked to a Hive Fleet and gotten what it calls itself.

Imperium: "Say, what do you call yourselves?"
Hive Fleet: -devours-
Imperium 2: Let's just call them "Leviathan" or something, yeah?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 22:10:49


Post by: vipoid


Honestly, the only faction I struggle with in this regard is Necrons. I must have looked at Nephrekh and Nihilakh dozens of time but I still couldn't tell you which was which without a codex in front of me..


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 23:08:40


Post by: John Prins


Tau unit names are mostly Imperial 'nicknames' for Tau units, the alien sounding ones are the actual tau names for those things, generally because they're uncommon enough that the Imperium doesn't have common names for them.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 23:47:34


Post by: ewar


Couldn't disagree with the OP more. Another pile of adjective noun verb names is the last thing this game needs. Jesus, it was one of the first things that made me sick in my mouth when AoS dropped.

If anything I would say GW struggles now with coming up with interesting or genuinely innovative names. Fyreslayers? Really...


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/01 23:57:35


Post by: the_scotsman


Wolf lord of the wolf on a wolf with two wolves wearing a wolftooth necklace wulfenstone with a wolf claw and the fangsword of the deathwolf.

Never forget.

(This was the wolfiest fieldable character for space wolves in 7th edition)


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 03:20:10


Post by: Da-Rock


I think many are missing the OP's point....

It's a game for humans.....naming something that doesn't stick in any way is stupid for a gaming company....

"Hey Billy, what's that thing called?"....."It's a T'au R'varna with Shas'o Av'cado of the Bordorken Seepage clan or tribe er something.....I just call it Neil and Bob because that's what it does."

Being realistic with naming conventions follows political correctness in the, "Dumbass ideas for $800 Alex"


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 03:24:58


Post by: cody.d.


And then you have orks who are potentially the most literal minded race in their naming conventions.

"Do dey shoot? Den dey are shootaz."

"Do dey nick stuff? Den dey are Lootaz."

"I'm da boss? Da boss of WAR! WARBOSS!"

Bless orks.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 03:34:22


Post by: Ghaz


 Da-Rock wrote:
I think many are missing the OP's point....

It's a game for humans.....naming something that doesn't stick in any way is stupid for a gaming company....

"Hey Billy, what's that thing called?"....."It's a T'au R'varna with Shas'o Av'cado of the Bordorken Seepage clan or tribe er something.....I just call it Neil and Bob because that's what it does."

Being realistic with naming conventions follows political correctness in the, "Dumbass ideas for $800 Alex"

Which is the equivalent of saying Sauron from the Lord of the Rings should have been named Bob...


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 03:40:20


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Ghaz wrote:
 Da-Rock wrote:
I think many are missing the OP's point....

It's a game for humans.....naming something that doesn't stick in any way is stupid for a gaming company....

"Hey Billy, what's that thing called?"....."It's a T'au R'varna with Shas'o Av'cado of the Bordorken Seepage clan or tribe er something.....I just call it Neil and Bob because that's what it does."

Being realistic with naming conventions follows political correctness in the, "Dumbass ideas for $800 Alex"

Which is the equivalent of saying Sauron from the Lord of the Rings should have been named Bob...
Well LotR was not designed with a playable wargame in mind. Having names which are reasonably understandable is a plus, but at the same time having alien names adds more flavor. There is a balance to be struck, no doubt. Even adding a bit of title can go a long way "Hipthk'An, the Bronze Legion" gets the best of both worlds, though obviously that can go awry as well.

But I'll take anything over "Deadwalkers" (for 40k folks, that is what they named the zombie subfaction in AoS).


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 05:51:59


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I'm okay with Eldar, Tau and Necrons having truly alien names and not just some kind of latin or english. If you ask me it makes more sense to have aliens with alien names than viking werewolfs in a setting 38000 years from now, but of course I'm aware that 40K is more of a parody of Sci-Fi tropes than anything else.
I'll take a a Bor'kan XV88 over a Sloppity Bilepiper. And in both cases I wouldn't know what it actually is without background knowledge.
I grew up as a Trekki, so I'm familiar with Klingons from Qo'nos in their B'rel class, lead by a Dahar-Master on their way to Sto'vo'kor believing in Kah'less and calling you a p'tah. And you know what? That's awesome! It's what gives an alien vibe to fictional cultures. It's what makes the elves from lotr interesting and gives them a culture. Same with Tau and Klingons.

40K more often than not suffers from being told from imperial perspective alone. 90% of Black library books are from an imperial perspective (my guess), the rulebook talks mainly about the imperium. So I like it when they bring in these little notions to make the other races stand out and give them personality. Orks and Tyranids lack that personality a bit - but that's because they're more NPC races to be shot down. We can't say in our language how tyranids call themselves, they don't speak and won't let us know. And Orks are influenced by humanity so much they invented a similar language (that's my head canon probably, but why would they have english titles for their clans?).


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:02:28


Post by: Amishprn86


Removed, Rule #1 please - BrookM


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:04:01


Post by: cody.d.


And Orks are influenced by humanity so much they invented a similar language (that's my head canon probably, but why would they have english titles for their clans?).


Oh orks have their own language. You can hear it being spoken at length at the start of the Ork audrio drama "Prophets of the Waaagh!!!" I think what we often hear/read is the best orky translation.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:10:05


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sleep Spell wrote:
I guess the other extreme would be the Space Wolf, Canis Wolfborn, wielding wolf claws and riding his Thunderwolf into battle.

Also the fact that the Farsight Enclave is the most close combat oriented doesn't really fit the name=modus operandi scheme... but having the alien name and a moniker used by imperial troops to classify their opponents would be entertaining, fluff wise.



for a bit but it'd quickly get annoying ahveing to generate two names, etc. Battletech initally did this for the clans but abandoned it pretty quick after TRO 3050


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:28:42


Post by: Apple fox


Why i can understand, I think this is just debating to remove the flaver of the setting.

When it comes down to it, Space Wolves tell me as much as Biel-tan does.

Its really no difernt from players having to learn D&D names and terms for the first time. When all they have play is 40k.
Or even learning a second language.

Like, if someone had asked me what a ravenwing Darkshoud was before today. I would probably say its a dark angels thing. But the words are meaningless without other info i know.



Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:42:01


Post by: Moriarty


cody.d. wrote:
And then you have orks who are potentially the most literal minded race in their naming conventions.

"Do dey shoot? Den dey are shootaz."

"Do dey nick stuff? Den dey are Lootaz."

"I'm da boss? Da boss of WAR! WARBOSS!"

Bless orks.


Though somewhat lost the plot with the new buggies? ‘Boomdakka Snazzwagon’? Really?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 06:56:50


Post by: Thargrim


Only one that irks me much is Drukari or whatever name they gave the dark eldar. I liked Eldar, has a nice ring to it, simple...evokes a certain vibe. But then GW got all goofy with it and came up with aeldari drukari and whatever else.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 07:05:44


Post by: A.T.


Moriarty wrote:
Though somewhat lost the plot with the new buggies? ‘Boomdakka Snazzwagon’? Really?
GW have definitely had one word too many on a lot of new units. The "sloppity bilepiper" being perhaps the worst.
Sometimes they don't seem to be able to find a good middle ground between "horticulous slimux" and the bloodmaster, bloodcrusher, skullmaster, skulltaker, bloodletter, bloodthirster, blood slaughterer, skullcannon, lord of skulls, tower of skulls, and herald... on a bloodthrone.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 07:13:14


Post by: RevlidRas


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I'm okay with Eldar, Tau and Necrons having truly alien names and not just some kind of latin or english. If you ask me it makes more sense to have aliens with alien names than viking werewolfs in a setting 38000 years from now, but of course I'm aware that 40K is more of a parody of Sci-Fi tropes than anything else.
I'll take a a Bor'kan XV88 over a Sloppity Bilepiper. And in both cases I wouldn't know what it actually is without background knowledge.
I grew up as a Trekki, so I'm familiar with Klingons from Qo'nos in their B'rel class, lead by a Dahar-Master on their way to Sto'vo'kor believing in Kah'less and calling you a p'tah. And you know what? That's awesome! It's what gives an alien vibe to fictional cultures. It's what makes the elves from lotr interesting and gives them a culture. Same with Tau and Klingons.

Here's the thing you and a bunch of other posters seem to be missing:

Commander Farsight's name is actually Shas'O Vior'la Shovah Kais Mont'yr. The Space Wolves are actually the Vlka Fenryka. The Swooping Hawks are actually called the Fian Siispeiraigh. The Evil Sunz are actually called the Uz-Baad. Bloodletters are actually called Khak'akamshy'y. The Skitarii are actually called the 01110011 01101011 01101001 01110100 01100001 01110010 01101001 01101001. And I don't want to take those names away!

But we call them Commander Farsight, the Space Wolves, Swooping Hawks, the Evil Sunz, Bloodletters, and the Skitarii, the last of which is the least comprehensible but is at least clearly pseudo-Latin of the sort we're familiar with.

This is good for the game, because it means I don't need to take a correspondence course or master a glottal click to describe the troops in my army. It makes those troops, and the characters involved, far more evocative. And it also, in direct contrast to what you're saying, helps me understand the mindset of alien races far more: if I'm told that a character's is Shas'o No'Sho Pron'To, I zone out and learn nothing. If I'm told that his name is Commander Swiftflight, a partly mocking name that refers to his quick retreats, I know exactly what his culture thinks of him and how they express it.

Even non-Ork or non-Tyranid players can take a decent shot at remembering some Hive Fleets or Ork Clans, because those stick in the mind. I guarantee you, anyone who doesn't play T'au or Necrons cannot remember their Factions, much less the iteration numbers T'au started adding to the front of every vehicle and battlesuit. Broadside Battlesuit vs XV107 R'varna Monat - you decide which is better for the game.

Anyone remember who the Necron gods are? Deceiver, Nightbringer, and hey, maybe you remember the Void Dragon and Outsider too, even though they never got models. Anyone remember the Necron name for the Nightbringer, off the top of their head? No? Lexicanum is cheating, don't think I can't see you typing it into Google! I thought not.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 08:09:50


Post by: Apple fox


This may just be a place where people understand, but disagree with you.

I do not think its good for the game, So many of the English names just bleed into each other as is. Or the more simple.

It depends on the name in its context and your understanding off it.
But i mean you bring up the eldar craftworlds in your opening post, and i would completly disagree with you about them taking over in such way.
The same way, I not sure i want to see a space marine named Jack since most english players will be able to say it and remember it.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 08:12:41


Post by: Tyranid Horde


RevlidRas wrote:


Eldar Craftworlds at least have some solid epithets that should really see more use: I wouldn't object in the least if Swordwind, Wild Host, Starstriders, and Ghost Warriors overtook Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, and Iyanden in common use. Are there any known translations or epithets for the made-up names of the T'au or Necron Factions? Are there any other names that could really do with a catchy English subtitle?


If you actually bothered to do a bit of research, the majority of Eldar Craftworld names stem from Irish (Gaeilge) and other Celtic derivatives which genre ripped for Elvish and in turn was put into 40k. Biel-Tan, Saim-hann, Lugganath all stem from Celtic festivals and you have other Craftworlds like Ibraesil named after a mythological island of the coast of Ireland. So they aren't just invented to sound quirky.

I could go on but you get the picture, they're meant to be alien sounding as they are from alien cultures.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 08:39:09


Post by: solkan


To the OP, complaining about made up foreign language terms:

Remind me again what the difference between a Maulerfiend, Forgefiend, and Helldrake is? Or the difference between a Terminator, Obliterator, Havoc, Raptor, ...



Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 09:27:26


Post by: RevlidRas


 solkan wrote:
To the OP, complaining about made up foreign language terms:

Remind me again what the difference between a Maulerfiend, Forgefiend, and Helldrake is? Or the difference between a Terminator, Obliterator, Havoc, Raptor, ...
Maulerfiend = Mauler (Close Combat) + Fiend (Daemon)
Forgefiend = Forge (Machine) + Fiend (Daemon)
Helldrake = Hell (Daemon) + Drake (Dragon)

Bork'an = Bork (Gibberish) + 'an (Gibberish)
XV109 Y'vahra = XV109 (alphanumeric identifier, so I guess it's a vehicle?) + Y'vahra (Gibberish)
Novokh = Novokh (Gibberish, vaguely Egyptian?)

I'm not sure why you think it's a good counterexample. Terminator and Obliterator are better arguments, but a) are actually English words, b) do have appropriate connotations, c) have enough history behind them that they'd get a pass – just like the one I give to the much, much less comprehensible Eldar Craftworlds who have been around since the 80s and 90s.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
If you actually bothered to do a bit of research, the majority of Eldar Craftworld names stem from Irish (Gaeilge) and other Celtic derivatives which genre ripped for Elvish and in turn was put into 40k. Biel-Tan, Saim-hann, Lugganath all stem from Celtic festivals and you have other Craftworlds like Ibraesil named after a mythological island of the coast of Ireland. So they aren't just invented to sound quirky.
My dude, I've celebrated Samhain and Beltane and Luhnasad with my Scottish cousins. The origins of the names are not a secret, or especially relevant.

And hey, Nihilakh is clearly named for Nihilism, the philosophy that life is without objective value, and Mephrit is clearly named for Mephits, the D&D elementals who first showed up back in White Dwarf.

This doesn't make those names any catchier. The Nightbringer and Void Dragon remain memorable even after being retconned into irrelevance.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 09:45:38


Post by: Tygre


Do we need more NATO Imperium call signs for Xenos units.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 10:02:59


Post by: Frozen Ocean


I'm just annoyed about the change of Tau to T'au and Eldar to Aeldari (and elves to aelves, though I don't care about Fantasy/AOS). Those aren't as bad as Astra Militarum, though.

Anyway, the vast majority of actual units and wargear are English words. The Y'vahra and R'varna are rare individual models and also edge cases; the standard unit is just called a Riptide Battlesuit. Everything from vehicles (Wave Serpent, Wraithlord, Crisis Battlesuit, Hammerhead) to Aspect Warriors (Striking Scorpions, etc) to their individual bits of equipment (deathspinners, pulse rifles, adrenal glands, etc). They're Tau Fire Warriors, not Tau V'ha'r'ohg'ghorii or whatever.

It's really just the proper names of things like factions and individual characters that matter, and most of them are quite memorable. It's not like the things with English names are always that descriptive; I think most of us know who Biel-Tan are, but how would you know what the White Scars are like from their name? Marneus Calgar as a name is no more descriptive than Jain Zar. It's only the rare names like the Swarmlord, or the awful Canis Wolfborn, that give an impression of who they are without any outside knowledge. Aside from having a name beginning with "kh", how would you know Khârn the Betrayer is a Khorne Chaos Marine and not, say, an Eldar mythological figure or a Word Bearer?

That said, the faux Egyptian of the Necrons is certainly overbearing, but that rot runs far deeper than just their names.

EDIT: Meanwhile, there's Mierce Miniatures, whose keyboard-smashing names are a huge barrier to me even browsing their catalogue.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 17:02:15


Post by: CATACLYSMUS


 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm just annoyed about the change of Tau to T'au and Eldar to Aeldari (and elves to aelves, though I don't care about Fantasy/AOS). Those aren't as bad as Astra Militarum, though.

Anyway, the vast majority of actual units and wargear are English words. The Y'vahra and R'varna are rare individual models and also edge cases; the standard unit is just called a Riptide Battlesuit. Everything from vehicles (Wave Serpent, Wraithlord, Crisis Battlesuit, Hammerhead) to Aspect Warriors (Striking Scorpions, etc) to their individual bits of equipment (deathspinners, pulse rifles, adrenal glands, etc). They're Tau Fire Warriors, not Tau V'ha'r'ohg'ghorii or whatever.

It's really just the proper names of things like factions and individual characters that matter, and most of them are quite memorable. It's not like the things with English names are always that descriptive; I think most of us know who Biel-Tan are, but how would you know what the White Scars are like from their name? Marneus Calgar as a name is no more descriptive than Jain Zar. It's only the rare names like the Swarmlord, or the awful Canis Wolfborn, that give an impression of who they are without any outside knowledge. Aside from having a name beginning with "kh", how would you know Khârn the Betrayer is a Khorne Chaos Marine and not, say, an Eldar mythological figure or a Word Bearer?

That said, the faux Egyptian of the Necrons is certainly overbearing, but that rot runs far deeper than just their names.

EDIT: Meanwhile, there's Mierce Miniatures, whose keyboard-smashing names are a huge barrier to me even browsing their catalogue.


My feeling is that the faction names changed due to the fifth Chaos God Khopiewrythe. Eldar, IG, and Dark Eldar arent within his purview, being names coined by someone else or combinations of common words.
Aeldari, Astra Militarum and Drukhari however are nice and original, and as such are smiled upon by his IPness.
As far as in faction naming conventions go, the named characters rarely all show up in one place, so 1 or 2 at a time should be relatively easy to remember, if not to pronounce.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 17:14:04


Post by: Sterling191


Tygre wrote:
Do we need more NATO Imperium call signs for Xenos units.


Nah, we just need players who dont demand that everyone else adhere to an exquisitely lazy and colonialist attitude regarding differing languages and cultures.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 17:16:13


Post by: Formerly Wu


I don't think it's just made-up alien words or lack of appellations that's at fault here. Ork klans aren't very descriptive, either. Speed Freaks, yes. But what's a Goff? How is Death Skulls descriptive of what they do?

The only real difference between the Ork klans or Craftworlds and the new Tau septs or Necron dynasties is that the former category has been around for long enough that the various sub-factions have had things to do, while the new factions have not. We have countless examples of story elements small and large where Biel-tan or Flash Gitz have fought in their particular style. The Nihilakh dynasty, for example, just doesn't have the critical mass of familiarity.

It also doesn't help that both Tau and Necrons have relatively small player bases compared to the more established factions, so dividing them up into sub-factions means you see even fewer particular examples on the tabletop.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 21:23:18


Post by: deotrims 16th


 Ghaz wrote:
 Da-Rock wrote:
I think many are missing the OP's point....

It's a game for humans.....naming something that doesn't stick in any way is stupid for a gaming company....

"Hey Billy, what's that thing called?"....."It's a T'au R'varna with Shas'o Av'cado of the Bordorken Seepage clan or tribe er something.....I just call it Neil and Bob because that's what it does."

Being realistic with naming conventions follows political correctness in the, "Dumbass ideas for $800 Alex"

Which is the equivalent of saying Sauron from the Lord of the Rings should have been named Bob...


But it isn't because Sauron's name was told enough in the books and films, and is pronounceable whereas lots of the tau and necron names aren't. Now I'm not saying all English names for everything at all but if you make up a name then make it easy enough to pronounce and mention the name enough times AND STOP WITH THE RANDOM APOSTROPHES TO MAKE IT SOUND ALIEN.

I mean every one knows what all the main guard regiments look like as every time you see them their name looks like. But the only 2 tau colour schemes I know the name of are the farsight enclaves being red and the tau(original sect) being that weird brown camo. but the white colour schemes I bet almost no-one reading this can say what sect they came from, or what colour the Bor'kan's have (see how one apostrophe was necessary but having two in one word then makes the word look stupid). And this is because you simply are never told their names.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 21:57:00


Post by: nareik


Nihilakh seems close to Greek suffix 'laki' -little, as in souvlaki. A lot of languages designate an 'I' sound with the 'h' character. This leaves us with 'nihil' as in 'nihilism'. In combination 'little nothing'; quite fitting for anything tau 'empire'!


Edit: wait, or were they necrons? Oops


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 22:17:48


Post by: 123ply


Necron is egyptian. All of the subfactions are based off real words

As for the Tau, who cares? Aliens shouldnt be understandable to us. You want aliens living on the other side of the galaxy to have names like "black dragon" or something?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 22:22:10


Post by: Phaeron Gukk


"All the alien factions have alien sounding names, which is completely different to all of the human factions and human-described factions, which have human names or human-assigned names..."
...yeah...
"...and that's terrible!"
??????


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 23:32:58


Post by: Da-Rock


 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
"All the alien factions have alien sounding names, which is completely different to all of the human factions and human-described factions, which have human names or human-assigned names..."
...yeah...
"...and that's terrible!"
??????


Well, I guess if we have aliens playing this game it would make sense to have alien sounding names made up by humans so that human players playing said game can feel alieny about human made up alien names..........


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/02 23:51:47


Post by: cody.d.


Though somewhat lost the plot with the new buggies? ‘Boomdakka Snazzwagon’? Really?


Seems like the Ork Meks have branched off into a marketing department, making sure everything has a copyright-able name just in case those imperial boyz want to nick their stuff.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 04:31:09


Post by: Mmmpi


RevlidRas wrote:
 solkan wrote:
To the OP, complaining about made up foreign language terms:

Remind me again what the difference between a Maulerfiend, Forgefiend, and Helldrake is? Or the difference between a Terminator, Obliterator, Havoc, Raptor, ...
Maulerfiend = Mauler (Close Combat) + Fiend (Daemon)
Forgefiend = Forge (Machine) + Fiend (Daemon)
Helldrake = Hell (Daemon) + Drake (Dragon)

Bork'an = Bork (Gibberish) + 'an (Gibberish)
XV109 Y'vahra = XV109 (alphanumeric identifier, so I guess it's a vehicle?) + Y'vahra (Gibberish)
Novokh = Novokh (Gibberish, vaguely Egyptian?)

I'm not sure why you think it's a good counterexample. Terminator and Obliterator are better arguments, but a) are actually English words, b) do have appropriate connotations, c) have enough history behind them that they'd get a pass – just like the one I give to the much, much less comprehensible Eldar Craftworlds who have been around since the 80s and 90s.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
If you actually bothered to do a bit of research, the majority of Eldar Craftworld names stem from Irish (Gaeilge) and other Celtic derivatives which genre ripped for Elvish and in turn was put into 40k. Biel-Tan, Saim-hann, Lugganath all stem from Celtic festivals and you have other Craftworlds like Ibraesil named after a mythological island of the coast of Ireland. So they aren't just invented to sound quirky.
My dude, I've celebrated Samhain and Beltane and Luhnasad with my Scottish cousins. The origins of the names are not a secret, or especially relevant.

And hey, Nihilakh is clearly named for Nihilism, the philosophy that life is without objective value, and Mephrit is clearly named for Mephits, the D&D elementals who first showed up back in White Dwarf.

This doesn't make those names any catchier. The Nightbringer and Void Dragon remain memorable even after being retconned into irrelevance.


What's a Beijing?

How discriptive is London, or Paris?

How about a Tokyo, or a Harare?

Let's look at vehicles. How descriptive of the intended job is an Abrams? Why say Samurai when you could say Japanese Fighty Guy? Or Onna-Bushi instead of lady fighting guy? My FLGS is called Off the Wall, and it certainly isn't.

But calling a city Iyanden, a squad leader a Shas'o (or whatever), or a mini-mech suit a Centurion doesn't do it for you?

Edit: Just reread my post and I want to be clear: I'm not accusing you of being racist or anything.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 05:43:35


Post by: epronovost


@Mmmpi

The irony is that Onna-Bushi quite literally translate to warrior-wife or lady of war. As for samurai, if I'm not mistaken, would translate to servant or duty-bound. Knight would translate to rider, etc. Names can be very stupid or very elaborate. It's logical that Tau names should be in Tau and that their translation are bit clunky like storm surge (I guess a better translation would be sudden storm while riptide would probably translate to rogue wave). It's the same thing for all other alien.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 06:06:22


Post by: Mmmpi


But it doesn't in English, which is my point.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 07:31:52


Post by: RevlidRas


 Mmmpi wrote:

Edit: Just reread my post and I want to be clear: I'm not accusing you of being racist or anything.
That's fine, but it actually brings up a good point that I'll run with.

Warhammer Fantasy was a world based on our own, with its own languages and cultures that we know for a fact existed and in most cases were near-identical to our own. Yet despite this The Empire's army book featured Knights, Riflemen, and Halberdiers, not Ritter, Schütze, and Hellebardier. Bretonnia fielded Grail Knights and Peasants, not Le Chevalier Graal and Paysans. Lizardmen had Saurus Warriors, not Cuetzpali Nahuatl. Even within wholly fictional languages, Dwarfs had Longbeards, not Gnol-Tromm, and High Elves had Silver Helms, not Ithiltaen.

Why do you suppose that was?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 07:53:49


Post by: Mmmpi


@RevlidRas

Because Warhammer Fantasy was based on 1980's fiction, and never got the same several fluff revisions. AoS does however do just what you suggest.

Furthermore, in the fluff for many of the non-human units do call their units by non-human names.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 08:10:56


Post by: Frozen Ocean


RevlidRas wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:

Edit: Just reread my post and I want to be clear: I'm not accusing you of being racist or anything.
That's fine, but it actually brings up a good point that I'll run with.

Warhammer Fantasy was a world based on our own, with its own languages and cultures that we know for a fact existed and in most cases were near-identical to our own. Yet despite this The Empire's army book featured Knights, Riflemen, and Halberdiers, not Ritter, Schütze, and Hellebardier. Bretonnia fielded Grail Knights and Peasants, not Le Chevalier Graal and Paysans. Lizardmen had Saurus Warriors, not Cuetzpali Nahuatl. Even within wholly fictional languages, Dwarfs had Longbeards, not Gnol-Tromm, and High Elves had Silver Helms, not Ithiltaen.

Why do you suppose that was?


But again, the vast, vast majority of units in 40k have English names, alien or not. The only reason nobody knows who Bor'kan is is because they're so minor. Tau and Necron subfactions are often nothing more than a paint scheme with a very small bit of history attached. Regardless if they were called Bor'kan or "White Fighters" or something, you'd have no idea who or what they were based on the name, just the same as how nobody would know who the White Scars were if all they had was the name. As far as the depth of their lore goes, Bor'kan are basically just "Tau, but white". There's very little reason for you to know who they are anyway, just like there's very little reason for you to know who the Brimlock Dragoons or the Gate Keepers are, though note that the Brimlock Dragoons follow the Imperial Guard tradition of having their planet's name (a made-up word) in their name. Most Tau Septs have no distinguishing features aside from their colour scheme and name.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 11:20:43


Post by: Pleasestop


 Frozen Ocean wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:

Edit: Just reread my post and I want to be clear: I'm not accusing you of being racist or anything.
That's fine, but it actually brings up a good point that I'll run with.

Warhammer Fantasy was a world based on our own, with its own languages and cultures that we know for a fact existed and in most cases were near-identical to our own. Yet despite this The Empire's army book featured Knights, Riflemen, and Halberdiers, not Ritter, Schütze, and Hellebardier. Bretonnia fielded Grail Knights and Peasants, not Le Chevalier Graal and Paysans. Lizardmen had Saurus Warriors, not Cuetzpali Nahuatl. Even within wholly fictional languages, Dwarfs had Longbeards, not Gnol-Tromm, and High Elves had Silver Helms, not Ithiltaen.

Why do you suppose that was?


But again, the vast, vast majority of units in 40k have English names, alien or not. The only reason nobody knows who Bor'kan is is because they're so minor. Tau and Necron subfactions are often nothing more than a paint scheme with a very small bit of history attached. Regardless if they were called Bor'kan or "White Fighters" or something, you'd have no idea who or what they were based on the name, just the same as how nobody would know who the White Scars were if all they had was the name. As far as the depth of their lore goes, Bor'kan are basically just "Tau, but white". There's very little reason for you to know who they are anyway, just like there's very little reason for you to know who the Brimlock Dragoons or the Gate Keepers are, though note that the Brimlock Dragoons follow the Imperial Guard tradition of having their planet's name (a made-up word) in their name. Most Tau Septs have no distinguishing features aside from their colour scheme and name.


You just proved his point though, Brimlock Dragoons gives off at least a certain connotation. I would have thought skitarii at first, with arquebus, but the point still stands. It evokes an imagine.

Bor'kan, Lisodan, Ovokotoh, whatever are just made up words that sound vaguely foreign, and evoke no real meaning or message to the player.

Say what you will about a slippery bilepiper, but it gives a much better description than a Y'havra.

Battle Sister - nun who fights
Space Marine - Marine in space
Black Templar - Unholy Holy Warrior
White Scars - Bright Battledamage, evoking a feeling of warriors and toughness
Fire Warrior - what's on the tin
Phoenix Lord, Succubus, Medusa, Harlequins, Aspect Warrior, etc all are names that evoke some kind of meaning or description or feeling

Y'havra or Mephrit/Novokh/etc don't and are basically gibberish for gibberish sake.

It's fine, good in fact, if the aliens refer to eachother by their own names, but as someone who doesn't speak T'au, it's absolutely worthless to me if they are all named in T'au. I don't know what a Shavo:'si is or a Shav'osa, but I do know what a Tau Firewarrior Squad Leader or a Fire Warrior Sargeant would be.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 11:22:19


Post by: Ratius


I'm just annoyed about the change of Tau to T'au


I literally did not notice this until now


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 12:00:58


Post by: Orodhen


I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem.

The T'au Septs and Necron Dynasties are proper nouns, so are not exactly directly translatable.

This is a game where we need to remember a large variety of rules and statlines. Remembering a few extra names shouldn't be this big of an issue.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 13:46:37


Post by: Frozen Ocean


Pleasestop wrote:

You just proved his point though, Brimlock Dragoons gives off at least a certain connotation. I would have thought skitarii at first, with arquebus, but the point still stands. It evokes an imagine.

Bor'kan, Lisodan, Ovokotoh, whatever are just made up words that sound vaguely foreign, and evoke no real meaning or message to the player.

Say what you will about a slippery bilepiper, but it gives a much better description than a Y'havra.

Battle Sister - nun who fights
Space Marine - Marine in space
Black Templar - Unholy Holy Warrior
White Scars - Bright Battledamage, evoking a feeling of warriors and toughness
Fire Warrior - what's on the tin
Phoenix Lord, Succubus, Medusa, Harlequins, Aspect Warrior, etc all are names that evoke some kind of meaning or description or feeling

Y'havra or Mephrit/Novokh/etc don't and are basically gibberish for gibberish sake.

It's fine, good in fact, if the aliens refer to eachother by their own names, but as someone who doesn't speak T'au, it's absolutely worthless to me if they are all named in T'au. I don't know what a Shavo:'si is or a Shav'osa, but I do know what a Tau Firewarrior Squad Leader or a Fire Warrior Sargeant would be.


An arquebus is a real world thing. Anyway, "Bright Battledamage" tells you nothing about the identity of the White Scars that distinguishes them from other Space Marines. A "Fire Warrior" only tells you that they're a type of fighter, possibly with flamethrowers. Without existing knowledge, any of these could be literally anything. I don't know why "Brimlock Dragoons" is any different to "Bor'kan", aside from the made-up word sounding better. The full name is "Bor'kan Sept", as in the "Sept from Bor'kan", just as Brimlock Dragoons are "Dragoons from Brimlock". Why is "Shas'Ui" different to "Exarch"? Neither name tells you anything without already knowing what they are. The Y'vahra is exactly one thing, not a faction, not a rank, and regardless of how good a name it is or isn't, it's still just something's name; you either know what a Y'vahra is or you don't. It'd be different if every Tau vehicle/battlesuit/etc was named this way, but it's only a really tiny few. It's exactly the same as knowing what a Wave Serpent is (= sea snake?) or who Ahzek Ahriman (some Persian guy?) is.

It's one thing to think certain names are silly (such as most of the Necron ones), and another to say that all names that aren't immediately descriptive are bad.

EDIT: That's not to mention the trend of giving Latin names to Tyranids that are either religious (Haruspex, Hierophant) or insulting terms for women (Harridan, Harpy, Termagant, Crone - even Dominatrix).


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 14:13:23


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, the fake latin gak is just as bad as the fake asian gak for me.

Bear in mind 90% of stuff in the necron and tau codex is named perfectly logically based on what it is

"Pulse Rifle" - Sounds like a basic rifle

"Fusion Blaster" - sounds like a scary anti tank gun

even like "Cyclic Ion Raker" - sounds like a laser machine gun. Hey, it is!

So your complaint is really with the subfactions, and the fact that their names don't evoke any particular description of what they do?

(morpheus meme) what if I told you...the only reason you know what any subfaction does is because you've been told, and the names aren't any more descriptive?

I did a random test with my wife last night, grabbing subfactions she didn't know and asking her to guess what their special schtick was. She knows what the main factions are in 40k and a couple sub-factions, so I avoided only those I knew she would know.

"World Eaters" - "They're the tyranids, and they have...lots of the big monsters."

"Bor'Kan" - "That sounds like eldar. I'm going to say they're eldar but I don't know what they do."

"Nihilakh" - "Definitely sounds egyptian so necrons. That is a nonsense word."

"Flesh Tearers" - "Chaos guys. They are crazy bezerkers."

"Rainbow Warriors" - *laughs* "you made that one up. Harlequins. Harlequins who are really colorful and that's their special power."

"White Scars" - "that's dark eldar. The ones with the frankensteins."

"Obsidian Rose" - "Sisters of battle with black armor. And..tanks."

"Ultramarines" - "BLUE! Blue space marines. Their power is blue."

"Alpha Legion" - "I'm gonna guess those are the normal human soldier guys. Legion sounds like there's a lot of them."


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 14:27:01


Post by: A Town Called Malus


The ultramarines power is certainly blue.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 14:30:23


Post by: Pleasestop


 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:

You just proved his point though, Brimlock Dragoons gives off at least a certain connotation. I would have thought skitarii at first, with arquebus, but the point still stands. It evokes an imagine.

Bor'kan, Lisodan, Ovokotoh, whatever are just made up words that sound vaguely foreign, and evoke no real meaning or message to the player.

Say what you will about a slippery bilepiper, but it gives a much better description than a Y'havra.

Battle Sister - nun who fights
Space Marine - Marine in space
Black Templar - Unholy Holy Warrior
White Scars - Bright Battledamage, evoking a feeling of warriors and toughness
Fire Warrior - what's on the tin
Phoenix Lord, Succubus, Medusa, Harlequins, Aspect Warrior, etc all are names that evoke some kind of meaning or description or feeling

Y'havra or Mephrit/Novokh/etc don't and are basically gibberish for gibberish sake.

It's fine, good in fact, if the aliens refer to eachother by their own names, but as someone who doesn't speak T'au, it's absolutely worthless to me if they are all named in T'au. I don't know what a Shavo:'si is or a Shav'osa, but I do know what a Tau Firewarrior Squad Leader or a Fire Warrior Sargeant would be.


An arquebus is a real world thing. Anyway, "Bright Battledamage" tells you nothing about the identity of the White Scars that distinguishes them from other Space Marines. A "Fire Warrior" only tells you that they're a type of fighter, possibly with flamethrowers. Without existing knowledge, any of these could be literally anything. I don't know why "Brimlock Dragoons" is any different to "Bor'kan", aside from the made-up word sounding better. The full name is "Bor'kan Sept", as in the "Sept from Bor'kan", just as Brimlock Dragoons are "Dragoons from Brimlock". Why is "Shas'Ui" different to "Exarch"? Neither name tells you anything without already knowing what they are. The Y'vahra is exactly one thing, not a faction, not a rank, and regardless of how good a name it is or isn't, it's still just something's name; you either know what a Y'vahra is or you don't. It'd be different if every Tau vehicle/battlesuit/etc was named this way, but it's only a really tiny few. It's exactly the same as knowing what a Wave Serpent is (= sea snake?) or who Ahzek Ahriman (some Persian guy?) is.

It's one thing to think certain names are silly (such as most of the Necron ones), and another to say that all names that aren't immediately descriptive are bad.

EDIT: That's not to mention the trend of giving Latin names to Tyranids that are either religious (Haruspex, Hierophant) or insulting terms for women (Harridan, Harpy, Termagant's, Crone - even Dominatrix).


Right - I was saying that the name evoked the imagine of Skitarii with an Arquebus. Never did I say that wasn't a real thing?

And wave Serpent makes sense for a fast slippery vehicle, and exarch is a real word, bro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, the fake latin gak is just as bad as the fake asian gak for me.

Bear in mind 90% of stuff in the necron and tau codex is named perfectly logically based on what it is

"Pulse Rifle" - Sounds like a basic rifle

"Fusion Blaster" - sounds like a scary anti tank gun

even like "Cyclic Ion Raker" - sounds like a laser machine gun. Hey, it is!

So your complaint is really with the subfactions, and the fact that their names don't evoke any particular description of what they do?

(morpheus meme) what if I told you...the only reason you know what any subfaction does is because you've been told, and the names aren't any more descriptive?

I did a random test with my wife last night, grabbing subfactions she didn't know and asking her to guess what their special schtick was. She knows what the main factions are in 40k and a couple sub-factions, so I avoided only those I knew she would know.

"World Eaters" - "They're the tyranids, and they have...lots of the big monsters."

"Bor'Kan" - "That sounds like eldar. I'm going to say they're eldar but I don't know what they do."

"Nihilakh" - "Definitely sounds egyptian so necrons. That is a nonsense word."

"Flesh Tearers" - "Chaos guys. They are crazy bezerkers."

"Rainbow Warriors" - *laughs* "you made that one up. Harlequins. Harlequins who are really colorful and that's their special power."

"White Scars" - "that's dark eldar. The ones with the frankensteins."

"Obsidian Rose" - "Sisters of battle with black armor. And..tanks."

"Ultramarines" - "BLUE! Blue space marines. Their power is blue."

"Alpha Legion" - "I'm gonna guess those are the normal human soldier guys. Legion sounds like there's a lot of them."


Real words convey meaning -- gibberish doesn't.

A bor'kan isn't anything.

My complaint also goes to Tyranid weapons - most of them are so nonuseful they might as well not have names. At least Tau and necron weapons naming conventions explain what they are.

If someone says I have a Tesla weapon, you get the jist. If it was called like, I dunno, Ankh Blaster to keep int eh line of Tyranids Biomorphic weapons, it would be pointless as well.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 14:52:02


Post by: Vankraken


Pleasestop wrote:


Real words convey meaning -- gibberish doesn't.

A bor'kan isn't anything.

My complaint also goes to Tyranid weapons - most of them are so nonuseful they might as well not have names. At least Tau and necron weapons naming conventions explain what they are.

If someone says I have a Tesla weapon, you get the jist. If it was called like, I dunno, Ankh Blaster to keep int eh line of Tyranids Biomorphic weapons, it would be pointless as well.


Ulaanbaatar. What does this mean? I haven't the foggiest idea but it's apparently the captial city of Mongolia. Alien names are going to be even more impossible to understand.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:06:41


Post by: solkan


The original poster's evil twin: "How come all of the Aliens are named using English, a language that doesn't exist in the setting? Don't they have their own languages and cultures?"

There are games like Corvus Belli's Infinity where every faction names their units in their own language, according to their own customs. And the naming of the "bad guy aliens" is a bit of a random mix between "What does it call itself?" and "What name caught on with the first people to encounter it?", like you expect to happen in real life.



Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:23:40


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:31:57


Post by: Quasistellar


RevlidRas wrote:
sound reasoning


This times about a quadrillion. It’s the same problem amateur authors run into trying to use weird unpronounceable names in their fiction in the name of just being different. Nothing takes me out of a setting more than a word that I literally cannot imagine how to pronounce.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:34:22


Post by: Pleasestop


the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:36:53


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


You guys must really hate ethnic names. 'Why doesn't your last name correspond to your profession? Are you savages?!'


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 15:49:56


Post by: Bharring


Quasistellar wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
sound reasoning


This times about a quadrillion. It’s the same problem amateur authors run into trying to use weird unpronounceable names in their fiction in the name of just being different. Nothing takes me out of a setting more than a word that I literally cannot imagine how to pronounce.

I would note that sometimes it's fitting - a Lovecraftian entity having a name i can't pronounce makes it more Lovecraftian. Which applies to some Greater Demons, but not to much else in 40k.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:03:07


Post by: Pleasestop


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
You guys must really hate ethnic names. 'Why doesn't your last name correspond to your profession? Are you savages?!'


Wow, a you must be a racist post!

That's great, and definitely not a violation of any rules.

How is it so hard to see why some players would prefer things on the tabletop to have descriptive names?


Like the Gue'vesa unit from forgeworld? If I said, hey, my Gue'vesa are attacking, do you know what that would be?

Hint: A Guardsmen unit for T'au. So, uh, why not T'au Human Auxiliaries? Or T'au Converted Infantry? Isn't that so much easier? I mean, I know most people don't play that often, maybe 1-2 times a month, and don't play all the armies, so it just makes it easier for everyone if it isn't in some nonreal language


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:07:40


Post by: Manchu


Easy now, fellas. Keep in mind that Rule One around here is Be Polite. Thanks!


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:10:18


Post by: Mmmpi


Pleasestop wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:14:01


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Mmmpi wrote:
Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


The only reason you know what a Bolter is is because they told you what it is, not because the name makes sense or instantly evokes its function. Outside of context I'd probably assume a Bolter is a piece of construction equipment.

Seem to remember a recent movie quote. 'All words are made up words.'


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:16:16


Post by: Mmmpi


Pleasestop wrote:


How is it so hard to see why some players would prefer things on the tabletop to have descriptive names?

It's not. But you've been acting like your way is the only way. It's not. People have told you that they like having non-human names for things in the game.


Like the Gue'vesa unit from forgeworld? If I said, hey, my Gue'vesa are attacking, do you know what that would be?


If I didn't, I'd ask my opponent to point it out. Once he did that, and took a moment to fill me in, play would continue.

Hint: A Guardsmen unit for T'au. So, uh, why not T'au Human Auxiliaries? Or T'au Converted Infantry? Isn't that so much easier? I mean, I know most people don't play that often, maybe 1-2 times a month, and don't play all the armies, so it just makes it easier for everyone if it isn't in some nonreal language


Because Gue'Vesa sounds like a Tau unit? As has been said, quite a few people like the 'non-standard' names, and have absolutely no issue with running into them on the table. Easier isn't always better. A bit of complexity can and quite a bit of spice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


The only reason you know what a Bolter is is because they told you what it is, not because the name makes sense or instantly evokes its function. Outside of context I'd probably assume a Bolter is a piece of construction equipment.

Seem to remember a recent movie quote. 'All words are made up words.'


I'm learning Japanese. There are a lot of times where every word feels made up.

And yeah, my first thought for a bolter was a lightning gun.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:18:51


Post by: the_scotsman


Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


I assumed I was white and american, not you. Obviously while being sarcastic, but I am white.

Chimera, Manticore, Wyvern and Basilisk convey identical meaning to me as Riptide, Broadside, Stormsurge and Ghostkeel - basically, they establish a naming convention for a faction's vehicles.

Gauss Flayer, Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon and Heavy Gauss Cannon mean exactly as much to me as Lasgun, Lascannon, and multilaser - basically, they tell me it's a type of gun, and mentally, I can probably line them up in terms of probable size and function.

Same deal with 'nids. An acid maw probably melts armor. I'll bet you can tell me what a Crushing Claw is good at versus a Scything Talon! if you tell me something is a Stranglethorn Cannon I'm going to get it kills infantry better than tanks and is a big gun.

You'll notice that when you have any kind of a point with your argument - i.e. that the thing being named needs to be swiftly identified by players in a game - the names are, almost always, named exactly that way. Tau Missiles aren't called o'slgh'wlhlirhglv's, they're called missiles. You know what a missile does.

And when you don't have a point - a subfaction is not a thing that needs to be quickly accessed and identified, it's a background element that you establish prior to playing the game, so it just needs a name - the names are often just nonsense words, and usually they're established to culturally code a faction.

When you say "which one of these is a Nihilakh Necron, which one of these is a T'au sept shas'ui, and which one of these is an Adeptus Custode" and you put down an egyptian-coded robot, an asian-coded mecha suit, and a roman-coded warrior, you know from the sounds of the names which is which because you associate those linguistic patterns with the culture the miniatures are inspired by. Not every subfaction can use a color scheme, because that would get incredibly stupid incredibly fast. They often do! But they can't always.You know what color a Blood Angel probably is. You don't know what color an Alpha Legion is. That's OK. It's a visual medium. Your brain is super good at remembering colors and associating them with words!


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 16:59:56


Post by: Quasistellar


Bharring wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
sound reasoning


This times about a quadrillion. It’s the same problem amateur authors run into trying to use weird unpronounceable names in their fiction in the name of just being different. Nothing takes me out of a setting more than a word that I literally cannot imagine how to pronounce.

I would note that sometimes it's fitting - a Lovecraftian entity having a name i can't pronounce makes it more Lovecraftian. Which applies to some Greater Demons, but not to much else in 40k.


Which is kinda okay. . . It’s when you get main characters or major things that get written out really often that it’s a problem.

I’m going to admit after initially being interested in Tau (excuse me, T’au) I kinda lost interest after trying to read about shas’ui and other various groupings of letters bisected by an apostrophe.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 17:01:39


Post by: Pleasestop


 Mmmpi wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


An Ultramarine is a blue Crayola crayon.
Space Wolves are the guys wearing wolves, riding wolves and using wolf themed gear.
Wraith guard is perfect. If it didn't have wraith in the name I would never take the Eldar vehicles to be "undead" because their design doesn't scream undead.
Lyanden/Borktor/whatever are fine as a name for the planet/race/faction/whatever but don't convey any real meaning -- Lyanden Ghostwarriors works like, say, Vostroyan Firstborn as conveying a place of origin (Vostroya) and flavor text (Firstborn)

Bieltan windriders would do the same, and, like, I don't have any clue what any of the necrons do, but assuming mephrit is the one with the more powerful lasers, the Mephrit Sun Dynasty would convey that easier.

Much like the sister of battle orders don't convey their roles either - Order of the Argent Shroud is a stupid name, table top speaking, because that actually tells us very little, where "Bloods Angels" is an example of a great, if slightly cheesy name -- It suggests they are the red army, they are better than human, and hints at a vampire theme. Space Wolves does the same, if even less subtle, and black Templar is again a great faction because if you say "Black Templar" and point at a collection of all the 40k factions, I'd beat 9/10 times the person would identify them correctly, with the 1/10 going to either Grey Knights (again, super name) or the Deathwatch, who's name is less good, but still conveys their role.

As an aside, this obsviously doesn't go for Unique Character names, otherwise you end up with names like "Canis Wolfborn". And while Sobriquets are cool, if everyone is "Luke Wilson, The Exterminator of Grand Vengeance" it just begins to blend together. It works better as "Grand Master Voldus and Logan Grimnar" vs "Commander Shadowsun and Lillith Hersperax"


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 17:16:15


Post by: Mmmpi


Spoiler:
Pleasestop wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


An Ultramarine is a blue Crayola crayon.
Space Wolves are the guys wearing wolves, riding wolves and using wolf themed gear.
Wraith guard is perfect. If it didn't have wraith in the name I would never take the Eldar vehicles to be "undead" because their design doesn't scream undead.
Lyanden/Borktor/whatever are fine as a name for the planet/race/faction/whatever but don't convey any real meaning -- Lyanden Ghostwarriors works like, say, Vostroyan Firstborn as conveying a place of origin (Vostroya) and flavor text (Firstborn)

Bieltan windriders would do the same, and, like, I don't have any clue what any of the necrons do, but assuming mephrit is the one with the more powerful lasers, the Mephrit Sun Dynasty would convey that easier.

Much like the sister of battle orders don't convey their roles either - Order of the Argent Shroud is a stupid name, table top speaking, because that actually tells us very little, where "Bloods Angels" is an example of a great, if slightly cheesy name -- It suggests they are the red army, they are better than human, and hints at a vampire theme. Space Wolves does the same, if even less subtle, and black Templar is again a great faction because if you say "Black Templar" and point at a collection of all the 40k factions, I'd beat 9/10 times the person would identify them correctly, with the 1/10 going to either Grey Knights (again, super name) or the Deathwatch, who's name is less good, but still conveys their role.


No, the color ultramarine is a type of blue. But that's not the only assumption people can make about first hearing about a space marine chapter call the ultramarines.
You learn that about the space wolves after you read their codex/look them up. Seawolves are a term for pirates, and mercenaries have commonly been called and linked to wolves.
But wraith doesn't scream eldar either. You also missed my point. I was referring to the world Iyanden.
They convey the same meaning that Beijing/London/Paris/Harare/Ryhdia does. Outside of knowing those are capital cities, what do they tell you about themselves?
Order of the Argent Shroud makes perfect sense under your criteria. They're an order that venerates a silver (ardent) shroud. Yes. Ardent means silver. Meanwhile blood angels tells us nothing about them, except that they're red (maybe), and probably either pretty bad guys (what I first thought), or good guys. Nothing in the name says that they're better than humans, though it does imply flight (Think Blue Angels). I've already discussed the issues with space wolves.

Again, these are subjective. YOU have an issue with them. The fandom as a whole does not.

--
Edited to get the spoilers right


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 17:21:08


Post by: TwinPoleTheory




Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 17:40:16


Post by: the_scotsman


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 17:58:49


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I think the OP simply hasn't played enough against Tau and Necrons, otherwize these names wouldn't be a problem at all. There's no difference between adeptus astartes and Vior'la Sept, both words only make sense when you know the context of 40K.
A guy in my gaming group knows all the Necron Dynasties, Harlequin masques and Tau septs, but always confuses Iron Warriors with Iron Hands or imperial fists, or World Eaters with Word Bearers. He's simply not interested in the Imperium or Chaos and therefor doesn't know the fluff that much.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 18:11:35


Post by: Orodhen


Our brains can store a large amount of information. If you don't know what something is, ask your opponent. We all knew nothing about the setting until we informed ourselves.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 18:41:50


Post by: Pleasestop


the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!


Emporer Children -- Ie, the Sons of the Emporer, followers of the Emporer etc, whcih carries a certain connotation. Cool. The name carries the intended meaning.

Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.

The Farsight Enclave -- Good name for T'au, and I'm sure there's some Taunword for it with too many ' in the name, that is used more in the fluff. But in tabletop terms, is much better than Bor'kan.

As for necrons, yup all their names do exactly the same thing. There's no real difference between all of them, because they all sound vaguely space Egyptian. Again, The Mephrit Sun Dynasty or the Novokh Bringers of Night or whatever would be better than just the Mephrit Dynasty. Which tells me the exact same thing as the Novokh dynasty, and doesn't help.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 19:01:53


Post by: the_scotsman


Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!


Emporer Children -- Ie, the Sons of the Emporer, followers of the Emporer etc, whcih carries a certain connotation. Cool. The name carries the intended meaning.

Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.

The Farsight Enclave -- Good name for T'au, and I'm sure there's some Taunword for it with too many ' in the name, that is used more in the fluff. But in tabletop terms, is much better than Bor'kan.

As for necrons, yup all their names do exactly the same thing. There's no real difference between all of them, because they all sound vaguely space Egyptian. Again, The Mephrit Sun Dynasty or the Novokh Bringers of Night or whatever would be better than just the Mephrit Dynasty. Which tells me the exact same thing as the Novokh dynasty, and doesn't help.


Yeah. i.e. the sons of the emperor, followers of the emperor, which carries a certain connotation THE OPPOSITE OF WHICH IS TRUE.

Emperor's children, you know, the guys whose color scheme is leopard print and pink, depraved followers of the chaos god of excess, who hate the emperor and want to destroy all he's created.

a name that means "nothing" (though I would argue that Bor'kan T'au helps to evoke the asian coding of the faction through the linguistic pattern) is more useful than a name that is actively misleading to the reader. The old joke:

"who does the vox say is coming through the warp?"

"Sir it's the Word Bearers and the Emperor's Children!"

"Yay, we're saved!"

"no they're depraved demon-worshipping monsters. Also, they're followed by the Deathwatch!"

"oh no, we're double screwed!"

"No, luckily they're on our side. The Flesh Tearers and the Silver Skulls are coming with them! We might be OK!"

That's basically the first thing I learned getting into 40k: Names are basically pointless. But even when they're technically meaningless...they're not.

We talked about Nemesor Zhandrek. How about Vargard Obyron?

You know these characters are a pair, and because "Vargard" has a word that sounds like "Guard" and "Nemesor" sounds a lot like "Emperor" you can easily distinguish which of the pair is the bodyguard/subordinate and which is the general/leader he's protecting. The fact that you've selected JUST the dynasty subfactions for your complaints and not...the whole rest of the necron faction pretty much belies the fact that almost everything in the necron faction, including the named characters, give you easy clues as to who they are and what they do.

Imotekh the Stormlord. Orikan The Diviner. Anrakyr The Traveler. Nemesor Zhandrekh and Vargard Obyron. Trayzn The Infinite. Illuminor Szeras. All of these names give you easy clues as to who these guys are and what their shtick is.

Chapter Master Marneus Calgar. Chapter Master Vulkan. Chapter Master Dante. WHUNK, HUAAAH. GABRIEL ANGELOS, CHAPTER MASTER OF THE BLOOD RAVENS.

None of this tells me anything except that they are all chapter masters.

Does this mean they are baddy bad nonsense names and we should petition GW to rename Marneus Calgar to Smurfitus Amadeeamadie?



[Thumb - classic.jpg]


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 19:10:46


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Pleasestop wrote:
Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.


You realize we could do this all day long for dozens of game systems, right? Literally, pick one. All. Day. Long. I mean do you understand the concept of world-building, creating fictional backgrounds? Do you understand why Tolkien created an entire language for elves? Talk about time spent creating words that don't mean anything to anyone.

'Greetings, Starfighter. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-dan Armada.' wtf is Ko-dan, it doesn't make sense.



'That does not make sense!'


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 19:12:45


Post by: the_scotsman


I love that you chose the meme where the guy is literally saying

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk."

God its so MEANINGLESS, these WORDS! what stupid terrible thing is this from, these terrible nonsense words!


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 19:36:04


Post by: Grimtuff


Pleasestop wrote:

Real words convey meaning -- gibberish doesn't.


In the wise words of a certain god of thunder- "All words are made up."

the_scotsman wrote:

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.


Story time- Many years ago my local GW put in their cabinet a Defiler of the EC legion. It was labelled "Emperor's Children Defiler". Only when a parent asked what one of those was did the staff realise their embarrassing mistake that perhaps it sounds very NSFW/NSFL to the untrained ear.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:12:55


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Pretty sure the Emperor's Children is meant to be ironic, and to highlight that a loyalist chapter fell from grace.
So yeah, it does make sense, if you know the background and get what they were going for.

GW have never been good at names, and its gotten worse with their insecurities over copyright. To be fair though, coming up with good names is hard, especially if you have to constantly come up with new ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:

Story time- Many years ago my local GW put in their cabinet a Defiler of the EC legion. It was labelled "Emperor's Children Defiler". Only when a parent asked what one of those was did the staff realise their embarrassing mistake that perhaps it sounds very NSFW/NSFL to the untrained ear.


Is that true? I really want it to be true


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:18:52


Post by: Grimtuff


100% true. The manager immediately replaced it with his DG land raider.

This was the same EC army that had Haagen-daz slogans on the tanks (“pleasure is the path to joy”) from an ad at the time.


Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:24:59


Post by: RevlidRas


 Orodhen wrote:
I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem.

The T'au Septs and Necron Dynasties are proper nouns, so are not exactly directly translatable.
Demonstrably untrue.

  • Shovah = Farsight
  • Shassera = Shadowsun
  • Var = Brightsword
  • Aloh = Coldwind


  • Hell, we don't even know the "real" T'au names for some characters in the setting, like Puretide. It would be the easiest thing in the world to say that the Sa'cea Sept translates to "Starfang Sept", so named for the vicious beasts that once roamed its surface as one of the first conquests of the young T'au Empire. And for all that some posters have claimed I only think the White Scars is a better name than the Klsdmfwnefjkwe because the White Scars have been around longer, I'm prepared to bet that the Starfang Sept would get a lot more play in the background, too.

     Frozen Ocean wrote:
    I'm just annoyed about the change of Tau to T'au.
    B'ut do'esn't it mak'e it l'ook c'ool an'd al'ien?

    Yo'u hea'rd t'he t'hre'ad: t'he m'ore i'ncom'pre'hensib'le so'meth'ing is, t'he m'ore re'ali'sti'c it s'eems!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:33:52


    Post by: Dandelion


    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:35:44


    Post by: Niiai


    The Necron dynasties are inspiered by egyptian sounding names.

    If you want more experience with alien aliens, watch Solaris or STALKER.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 20:43:45


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    STALKER doesn't have aliens, it has mutants. From Earth. And they are named things like "Bloodsucker" and "Controller". The only unusual name is Snork, and that's short for Snorkel, referring to the gasmasks they wear.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:01:48


    Post by: Sgt_Smudge


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Pretty sure the Emperor's Children is meant to be ironic, and to highlight that a loyalist chapter fell from grace.
    So yeah, it does make sense, if you know the background and get what they were going for.
    Exactly - if you know the background.

    If you put no time in to actually hearing and normalising the language/culture of the alien races on 40k, of course you won't understand or recognise them.
    Same as Adeptus Astartes - okay, "adeptus" tells us they're good, or specialised at something, "astartes" - what on earth is that meant to mean? Some kind of Mesopotamian goddess? So, the Adeptus Astartes must actually be devotees of the goddess Astarte?

    Context - if you research just a little bit, things aren't nearly as daunting.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:15:59


    Post by: Grimtuff


    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.


    Scalex VI and Omnicide are my favourite nonsense planet names.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:50:30


    Post by: Galas


    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:53:48


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Its kind of weird though how IG vehicles and Tyranid Fleets both have the same sort of naming convention.
    I get that Tyranid fleet names are based off of huge monsters, but its still pretty close.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:56:15


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 21:57:42


    Post by: Galas


    But I agree with most people that isn't the OP.

    This is a fantasy setting. Is fine to have both senbile wording and made up words.


    If you think Warhammer has difficultd names go to learn about Lovecraft mythos. (I know the point of the names of that universe is to show how inhuman those things are but still)


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 22:18:05


    Post by: epronovost


     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    But the Falcon is Eldar and no other eldar vehicle is named after a flying animal to my knowledge.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 22:26:20


    Post by: Sgt_Smudge


    epronovost wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    But the Falcon is Eldar and no other eldar vehicle is named after a flying animal to my knowledge.
    Hornet, I think? Serpent could also refer to a flying creature. I think the Lynx is actually one of the biggest outliers of their naming style.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 22:37:49


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


     Galas wrote:
    If you think Warhammer has difficultd names go to learn about Lovecraft mythos. (I know the point of the names of that universe is to show how inhuman those things are but still)


    'Iä! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!'


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 23:15:40


    Post by: Racerguy180


    CthuluIsSpy wrote:STALKER doesn't have aliens, it has mutants. From Earth. And they are named things like "Bloodsucker" and "Controller". The only unusual name is Snork, and that's short for Snorkel, referring to the gasmasks they wear.


    Please do not attach non-wargaming images to our servers, thanks!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/03 23:41:07


    Post by: AngryAngel80


    I don't really find this much of an issue. I don't need to know what they call themselves to kill them. Many of the names are a bit over the top and I don't bother saying the whole thing. That goes for every faction out there.

    I actually re name the enemy units to remember them and at the same time mock them for their evil/alien nature. Like the stormsurge is the Squatty, as he looks like he's popping a squat.

    I actually dislike the new naming conventions with AoS a good deal more. As well as some of the more silly names for imperial factions in 40k, Astra Militarum, I'm not saying that sounds too kiddy, they are the imperial guard now and always. Adeptus Astartes, nope just space marines for me. Etc.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 02:08:57


    Post by: the_scotsman


    epronovost wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    But the Falcon is Eldar and no other eldar vehicle is named after a flying animal to my knowledge.


    Don't they have a forgeworld flyer called the pheonix?

    Eldar naming conventions are all kind of weird. The aspects are all verbing nouns, then their vehicle range be like

    BIRD! SMALLISH PREDATORY CAT! SNAKE ON A SURFBOARD! POISONOUS PLANT GHOSTPUNCHER! BEES?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 03:25:40


    Post by: BrianDavion


    the_scotsman wrote:


    After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


    tell me your not serious?!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 03:30:43


    Post by: EnTyme


    BrianDavion wrote:
    the_scotsman wrote:


    After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


    tell me your not serious?!


    You may want to get your sarcasm detector recalibrated. If he laid it on any thicker, he'd be a Joss Whedon character.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 04:21:46


    Post by: SHUPPET


    I'm not interested in arguing about it, because this is a really stupid thing to argue about, but I'll share what I think just once, as I think people are just approaching this from different mindsets. Basically, having easily identifiable unit names and codewords is going to be better for a tabletop game, it's difficult to say otherwise that, and yeah things like Yvarna and Rvarna are on the absolute bottom end of intuitive names when it comes to raw gameplay. However this isn't just a tabletop game, it's a thriving setting and background, and forcing this lore to adhere to human naming conventions in the case of Xenos and Daemons, is going to be detrimentally restrictive in some cases. I don't see how anyone could genuinely disagree with either of these points.


    For both points it's an absolute tiny issue let's be real.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    the_scotsman wrote:
    Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

    the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

    The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

    You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

    In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

    Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

    You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

    That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

    Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

    All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

    You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".


    That doesn't mean it isn't a good thing. The words Iron Warriors or Word Bearers or any of the legions you listed, don't outright tell you what to expect - you don't know Iron Warriors will be metal with hazard stripes just off the name. But when you go back after learning what the Iron Warriors are, the name makes perfect sense - it captures both their personality and their paint scheme, and all those names are somewhat associated with the entity in question once you are aware of why they were given that name, and that is really helpful at the very least for creating a memorable identity for the rules and the flavor - unlike names like Rvarna and Yvarna which still just mean nothing. There's a reason the pieces in chess are called the king and the queen even if that doesn't immediately tell you what they do, and not the "shalixthli" and the "m'carnathe" or whatever else - the names they do have tell you literally nothing until you know what they do, but once you do know, having those names in a recognisable language helps associate an identity with the ruleset attached. The relatable names do help from a gameplay perspective, even if they aren't a good restriction to place on the lore, surely we're able to acknowledge the two different aspects of 40k here?




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Oh look at that I fell into the trap of arguing about this


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 09:59:52


    Post by: Mmmpi


    Oh look at that I fell into the trap of arguing about this


    it's ok, we still love you.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 12:09:14


    Post by: RevlidRas


    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.
    I actually specifically referenced these in the OP.

    Namely, that while Cadia and Tallarn are indeed not immediately obvious references, they both come with useful and memorable epithets (Tallarn Desert Warriors, Cadian Shock Troops), and are both old enough to have developed decent name recognition in their own right. Much like Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch, in fact; if there were, say, a dozen Chaos Gods, and they weren't central to the history of multiple game lines, you can bet we'd be seeing Khorne referenced as "The Blood God" a whole lot more to help build that association.

     Sgt_Smudge wrote:
    Same as Adeptus Astartes - okay, "adeptus" tells us they're good, or specialised at something, "astartes" - what on earth is that meant to mean? Some kind of Mesopotamian goddess? So, the Adeptus Astartes must actually be devotees of the goddess Astarte?
    Let's not be disingenuous. They're Space Marines. Everyone calls them Space Marines. Their codex is titled Space Marines. You don't need to translate Latin. This is like pretending to be reaaaally confused by the name Adepta Sororitas when "Sisters of Battle" is right there.

    On a similar note, it doesn't really matter that the Emperor's Children is a seemingly counterintuitive name, because they're Slaaneshi psychopaths clad in pink and black BDSM power armour. The only time the name is going to come up, context will make it very clear that they're not Loyalists, and the association will build. The fact that the name is ironic is, in itself, a memorable trait. The fact that T'au Septs are pretty indistinct from one-another doesn't help their case, certainly, but having absolutely no mnemonic hooks is a death-knell to building any kind of momentum.

     SHUPPET wrote:
    I'm not interested in arguing about it, because this is a really stupid thing to argue about, but I'll share what I think just once, as I think people are just approaching this from different mindsets. Basically, having easily identifiable unit names and codewords is going to be better for a tabletop game, it's difficult to say otherwise that, and yeah things like Yvarna and Rvarna are on the absolute bottom end of intuitive names when it comes to raw gameplay. However this isn't just a tabletop game, it's a thriving setting and background, and forcing this lore to adhere to human naming conventions in the case of Xenos and Daemons, is going to be detrimentally restrictive in some cases. I don't see how anyone could genuinely disagree with either of these points.
    Yes? The issue I'm running into is that in most cases, the game is very good at having its cake and eating it too. T'au are the best example: yes, T'au have a complex and alien naming scheme that produces names for units, characters, and planets that don't resemble most human names, and these exist throughout the background material for the army. But these names can be translated for ease-of-use into things like "Farsight" or "Devilfish".

    My view is that they should continue to do so, as they've done for the entire gameline thus far, and those examples where they've recently failed to do so are detrimental to the presentation of the factions in question: it's therefore somewhat baffling to see posters crawling out of the woodwork who apparently think it's more authentic for every datasheet title to be a face-meets-keyboard mash of vowels and apostrophes.

    I did pretty much expect the other response, however, which is posters implying anyone who doesn't like the name S'mfYgmww'an is clearly just too shallow to appreciate real alien cultures.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 12:51:29


    Post by: Excommunicatus


    The only reason Telemachus seems like a weird forename to most Brits/Americans/Canadians/Australians compared to Jason/Joshua is frequency of usage.

    That's all this is. You're used to hearing some words and not used to hearing others.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 13:08:07


    Post by: AndrewGPaul


    RevlidRas wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.
    I actually specifically referenced these in the OP.

    Namely, that while Cadia and Tallarn are indeed not immediately obvious references, they both come with useful and memorable epithets (Tallarn Desert Warriors, Cadian Shock Troops), and are both old enough to have developed decent name recognition in their own right.


    So, your argument is that there should never be any new background, because it won't have the same baggage as the old stuff does to long-term players? (and presumably we should never have any new players, because "Cadia" or "Tallarn" will be meaningless to them.)


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 13:52:58


    Post by: Apple Peel


     AndrewGPaul wrote:
    RevlidRas wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.
    I actually specifically referenced these in the OP.

    Namely, that while Cadia and Tallarn are indeed not immediately obvious references, they both come with useful and memorable epithets (Tallarn Desert Warriors, Cadian Shock Troops), and are both old enough to have developed decent name recognition in their own right.


    So, your argument is that there should never be any new background, because it won't have the same baggage as the old stuff does to long-term players? (and presumably we should never have any new players, because "Cadia" or "Tallarn" will be meaningless to them.)

    No. If you would read, his arguments is that units should have translated names like “Devilfish” on the datasheet. The actual name can be shu doo’ da poo whatever, just not on then datasheet.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 15:30:47


    Post by: RevlidRas


     AndrewGPaul wrote:
    So, your argument is that there should never be any new background, because it won't have the same baggage as the old stuff does to long-term players? (and presumably we should never have any new players, because "Cadia" or "Tallarn" will be meaningless to them.)

    As a hot tip for the future: misrepresenting someone's argument generally works better if you don't directly quote it when doing so.

    In this case, I've said "my argument is X and Y" and you've responded with "oh, so your argument is just Y, which is absurd". Except that everyone can see X. You have actually quoted X in your own post. I mentioned X at length in the OP.

    Do you see how this somewhat blunts your rhetorical thrust?

     Excommunicatus wrote:
    The only reason Telemachus seems like a weird forename to most Brits/Americans/Canadians/Australians compared to Jason/Joshua is frequency of usage.

    That's all this is. You're used to hearing some words and not used to hearing others.
    I have searched the whole thread out of sheer confusion, and you are the first person to so much as mention the name Telemachus. Am I missing something?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 16:04:45


    Post by: CATACLYSMUS


    And now for something completely different...
    I like to have fun with the names.
    For instance, my Tau coldstar commander is named Shas'o De'koi. My ethereal is Aun'Atoo.
    I had a IG company that was the Tovarin 131st 52nd 19th Emperor's Elite Meatshields. Their commander was Franz Cannonade, and his adjutants were Captains McMaim and McMaul.
    My Dark Angels company commander was Captain Gluteus Flaggelus.
    Why so serious?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 16:35:40


    Post by: Sgt_Smudge


    RevlidRas wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.
    I actually specifically referenced these in the OP.

    Namely, that while Cadia and Tallarn are indeed not immediately obvious references, they both come with useful and memorable epithets (Tallarn Desert Warriors, Cadian Shock Troops), and are both old enough to have developed decent name recognition in their own right. Much like Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch, in fact; if there were, say, a dozen Chaos Gods, and they weren't central to the history of multiple game lines, you can bet we'd be seeing Khorne referenced as "The Blood God" a whole lot more to help build that association.
    I understand this isn't your whole argument, but seriously, just drop mentioning this.

    We all know that almost ALL place names, and even person names, would sound janky and foreign if we hadn't been conditioned to get used to them. We think a planet called Armageddon is fine, but a planet called Omnicide is dumb, despite them being practically the same thing. Why: because Yes, we know this isn't the whole argument, but if you keep mentioning it, of course people will focus on it and argue against it.

    Cadia is just as foreign as Bork'an. Pretending that one is somehow innately more memorably or descriptive than the other is simply subjective at best, and ignorant at worst.

     Sgt_Smudge wrote:
    Same as Adeptus Astartes - okay, "adeptus" tells us they're good, or specialised at something, "astartes" - what on earth is that meant to mean? Some kind of Mesopotamian goddess? So, the Adeptus Astartes must actually be devotees of the goddess Astarte?
    Let's not be disingenuous. They're Space Marines. Everyone calls them Space Marines. Their codex is titled Space Marines. You don't need to translate Latin. This is like pretending to be reaaaally confused by the name Adepta Sororitas when "Sisters of Battle" is right there.
    But they're also called Adeptus Astartes. The only reason that you associate Space Marine with Adeptus Astartes is simple repetition. Nothing about "Adeptus Astartes" relates to "Space Marine" at all, yet apparently they're linked - and you've not called that out.

    Your OP posits that things MUST have names that evoke "the appearance and nature of these groups". How does Adeptus Astartes do this? How about Silver Skulls? Rainbow Warriors?
    As with anything 40k, or even fictional, if you expose yourself to it, it becomes normalised.

    When I first started 40k, if someone said "who do the Flesh Tearers fight for", I'd assume Chaos. If someone said that for the Emperor's Children, I'd assume the Imperium. However, now, even if I didn't know what they were, I could guess what the Gue'vesa are, because I've taken time to normalise a basic idea of notable Tau lexicon. Gue = human, -vesa = helper. Therefore, gue'vesa = human helper. If you kept playing 40k and normalise what "Gue'vesa" is, you'll associate it with human helpers of the Tau. After all, how would I know what a Lictor is, when Roman Lictors have nothing to do with a Tyranid bio-assassin. If we go on your logic of "must be easily identifiable", then a Lictor should really be called something like a Sicarius.

    Or to stay on the Latin aspect - why are Centurions called Centurions? A Centurion is a Roman military commander in charge of a century. But 40k Centurions are just heavy weapon guys with larger carapaces. Not commanders, not especially elite, not even related to the number 100 at all. Yet, you've not called them out either.

    On a similar note, it doesn't really matter that the Emperor's Children is a seemingly counterintuitive name, because they're Slaaneshi psychopaths clad in pink and black BDSM power armour. The only time the name is going to come up, context will make it very clear that they're not Loyalists, and the association will build. The fact that the name is ironic is, in itself, a memorable trait. The fact that T'au Septs are pretty indistinct from one-another doesn't help their case, certainly, but having absolutely no mnemonic hooks is a death-knell to building any kind of momentum.
    They do have mnemonic hooks, or at least, ones just as good as the others. However, if you don't bother putting in effort to create associations, of course you won't make any progress.

    The Emperor's Children are the perfect example of why your argument of "a name should be memorable" doesn't work - you say yourself that their name is irrelevant, but their aesthetic is, and therefore the name is only memorable because you associate it with a memorable colour scheme. The issue isn't that you can't remember their name, or think it's meaningless - it's because you can't find anything to link it to what it is.

    I can recall a load of Tau septs, but because I haven't taken time to associate the names with their sept sigil or colour, I wouldn't find it easy to match them - but I still know the names of the Septs. The names aren't hard. Neither are associations. It only requires that you take a bit of time to associate one with the other, and you'll be fine.

    My view is that they should continue to do so, as they've done for the entire gameline thus far, and those examples where they've recently failed to do so are detrimental to the presentation of the factions in question: it's therefore somewhat baffling to see posters crawling out of the woodwork who apparently think it's more authentic for every datasheet title to be a face-meets-keyboard mash of vowels and apostrophes.

    I did pretty much expect the other response, however, which is posters implying anyone who doesn't like the name S'mfYgmww'an is clearly just too shallow to appreciate real alien cultures.
    If this was your only argument, you might be onto something. But your main argument is actually about "I'm talking about weird made-up words in place of actual, memorable phrases, primarily for factions." In 40k however, MOST things are weird and made up, and only have meaning because of continued use and association with those phrases.
    Cadian Shock Troopers is fundamentally the same as Bork'an Fire Warriors. Planet name, plus type of soldier.

    No-one's saying that "all datasheets should be a mash of vowels and apostrophes", but that if a datasheet DOES have that, it's not stupid, and it's not impossible to make connections with it.
    Pretending like you can't make those kind of associations is simply wrong.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 16:58:59


    Post by: Karol


    Removed - BrookM


    Cadia is just as foreign as Bork'an. Pretending that one is somehow innately more memorably or descriptive than the other is simply subjective at best, and ignorant at worst.


    But that isn't true. A word that is clearly ment for your own language and has roots in it, will always be absorbed better then something that comes out of a foreign language. Cadia has a nice latin sound to it . A cadus is a bottle, and a bottle was kind of in the neck of a chaos realm bottle. Borkan on the other hand is a persian or med word, which makes it foreign in nature. And all animals, including humans, do not like foreing things. So yeah for an europans a culexus assasin aka the mosquitto has culturaly a better hidden meaning then a gnat. Even if both words describe the same thing.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 17:21:02


    Post by: Sgt_Smudge


    Karol wrote:
    Cadia is just as foreign as Bork'an. Pretending that one is somehow innately more memorably or descriptive than the other is simply subjective at best, and ignorant at worst.


    But that isn't true. A word that is clearly ment for your own language and has roots in it, will always be absorbed better then something that comes out of a foreign language. Cadia has a nice latin sound to it . A cadus is a bottle, and a bottle was kind of in the neck of a chaos realm bottle. Borkan on the other hand is a persian or med word, which makes it foreign in nature. And all animals, including humans, do not like foreing things. So yeah for an europans a culexus assasin aka the mosquitto has culturaly a better hidden meaning then a gnat. Even if both words describe the same thing.
    Not all Europeans understand Latin. It might look more pleasing to them that they see a word without an apostrophe, but are you SERIOUSLY saying that the mere appearance of an apostrophe is enough to render one nonsense word useless compared to another similarly nonsense word?

    I've never known that a cadus is a bottle, and so your connection that Cadia is linked to the bottleneck of the Eye of Terror is completely lost on me. Maybe I'm the minority, but I've never heard of a cadus.

    Bork'an doesn't sound Persian. Sounds more like an east Asian one, and even then, that's tenuous. It DOES sound foreign, but that doesn't make it's meaning any different. It just *sounds* different. That's my point - Cadia might sound more pleasing to a western audience, and Bork'an might look/sound more foreign, but regardless of their sound, they are still both ultimately MEANINGLESS without context of the 40k universe.*


    *of course, assuming that someone isn't aware of what a cadus is, and considering it's a pretty niche word with few cognates in the English language, I think that's the majority of people.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 17:42:59


    Post by: Excommunicatus


    RevlidRas wrote:
    I have searched the whole thread out of sheer confusion, and you are the first person to so much as mention the name Telemachus. Am I missing something?


    Perhaps. They're all ancient Greek names; Jason and Joshua entered common usage in the former British Empire and Telemachus didn't.

    One sounds 'weird' to English-speaking ears, two don't.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 18:05:22


    Post by: onlyroad


    Just take a look at Dark Eldar for faction names that are entirely English but convey no real meaning about the faction.

    Take the Kabal of the Black Heart for instance. Kabal turns into Cabal, roughly similar meaning and connotation. But what does the term "Black Heart" mean? It's sinister and filled with malice, but no more than Prophets of Flesh, Poisoned Tongue, or Flayed Skull. It most certainly doesn't hint that those within the Kabal are master politicians and manipulators. But if you called them something like Kabal of the Insidious Schemers or something similar, it just sounds dumb.

    Just because something is in English doesn't mean it's more valuable as a term than something that's not.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 18:27:40


    Post by: catbarf


     onlyroad wrote:
    Just because something is in English doesn't mean it's more valuable as a term than something that's not.


    Even for the names that aren't particularly evocative, though, a phrase in your native language is far easier to remember and distinguish than a string of foreign syllables.

    If you try asking the average a non-40K player to remember the phrases 'Kabal of the Black Heart' and 'T'au Shas'O Or'es'Ka', the former is going to be much easier to remember, despite them both being six syllables.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 18:50:19


    Post by: AndrewGPaul


    RevlidRas wrote:
     AndrewGPaul wrote:
    So, your argument is that there should never be any new background, because it won't have the same baggage as the old stuff does to long-term players? (and presumably we should never have any new players, because "Cadia" or "Tallarn" will be meaningless to them.)

    As a hot tip for the future: misrepresenting someone's argument generally works better if you don't directly quote it when doing so.

    In this case, I've said "my argument is X and Y" and you've responded with "oh, so your argument is just Y, which is absurd". Except that everyone can see X. You have actually quoted X in your own post. I mentioned X at length in the OP.

    Do you see how this somewhat blunts your rhetorical thrust?


    Cadia and Tallarn "both come with useful and memorable epithets", but Bor'Kan and Sac'ea don't. Is it literally that? That there's no "Sac'ean Commandos" in the Tau background? You also mention in the OP that you'll accept old names being "grandfathered in", hence my reply. If old names are OK but new ones aren't, then how can you expand on the setting?

    As for catchy English names, you mean Al'rahem and titles like Kasrkin (which is more awkward to pronounce than most of the Tau and Necron names; at least most of those don't have a vowel-less syllable dumped in the middle Personally, the more differet styles and implied etymologies the better. Necron names sound "Necron-y", Tau names sound different, Eldar are different again. Put them on a star map and instantly I know what's going on without any more clues. Seeing a planet referred to in one instance as "Taros" and then later as "T'Ros" tells you immediately that it's been captured by the Tau Empire from the Imperium, or implies areas of local political conflict (as is the case all across the real world, even right here in the UK). "Translating" everything into English loses lots of flavour from the setting as a whole.

    You don't remember which Dynasty is which, or which Sept is where? Fair enough, it just means that area of the setting isn't your immediate interest. I mean, I can never remember which First Founding Chapter is which Legion number, and I wish all the neophytes hanging out in the Horus Heresy section of these boards would talk about "Space Wolves" and "Emperor's Children" instead of their new-fangled, made-up "VIIIth" and "IIIRd Legion" rubbish.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 18:55:35


    Post by: Karol


    Not all Europeans understand Latin. It might look more pleasing to them that they see a word without an apostrophe, but are you SERIOUSLY saying that the mere appearance of an apostrophe is enough to render one nonsense word useless compared to another similarly nonsense word?

    Do you know how an ą or ę sounds? Because I do, everyone slavic does. Words with those sounds are nothing unusual to us. On the other hand to everyone else west of the oder something like Brzenczyszczykiewiczównę is a babble.

    Plus it doesn't have to be latin, eastern slavs have words take from greek. And romans took stuff from greek too. That is why a space ship named Bucephalus does not sound odd or wierd to anyone . On the other hand if named the space ship with the word for horse in Kosa or Zulu, most people would not get nothing out of it then the sound of the name.


    But what does the term "Black Heart" mean? It's sinister and filled with malice, but no more than Prophets of Flesh, Poisoned Tongue, or Flayed Skull. It most certainly doesn't hint that those within the Kabal are master politicians and manipulators

    Well that is odd then, because to me heart means the main organ. The center of something. Prophet sof flesh says in the name what the dudes and gals do. Same with flayed skull. And you have poison in your name everyone will think of assasins galor.

    Just because something is in English doesn't mean it's more valuable as a term than something that's not.

    But it is. As long as words have meaning and there is cultural background to it, that the majority understands then they are. On the other hand if a word requires a in depth knowladge of culture that isn't even real, but invented. Then the name is not worth more then the sound of it. Want an example? What does the word Mąciwoda say as a description of someone? unless your slavic you would not now. On the other hand something as crude as "edbursta gives everyone with basic knowladge of english what the thing is about.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 19:05:01


    Post by: CATACLYSMUS


    Karol wrote:
     CATACLYSMUS wrote:

    Why so serious?


    Nowadays? Aren't people in the western europe losing jobs for using the wrong words or describing stuff in the wrong way? Seems like an odd question to ask.

    Coming from 'Merica, where the phrase 'politically correct' was more or less invented, the question comes from syntax fatigue. Honestly, if we cant have a bit of silly fun with a toy soldier game, what's the point?
    I thought I'd bring a bit of levity into what looks dangerously like Real Life brutally invading the gaming space.
    Given that context, seemed like the RIGHT question to ask.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 19:09:28


    Post by: AndrewGPaul


    Some names are supposed to mean what they say - that's why things like the "Kabal of the Black Heart" are rendered in English (or whichever language the book you're reading is in) - because it's the meaning of "Black Heart" (a metaphor for evil, callousness, cruelty) that's important. Other times, the meaning of the word isn't important, but the flavour of foreigness that's desired. Sometimes he's O'Shovah, if they want to play up the non-human nature of the character, sometimes he's Farsight if they want to work with the allusions of that title.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/04 22:21:12


    Post by: Karol


    Only this works for people from english sphear, or at least non slavic as osznowa or osnova is a wool type of decoration for easter eggs, or quite litterly a type of textile fabric composition.
    So again we are going back to how recognisable a symbol in a language is.


    Coming from 'Merica, where the phrase 'politically correct' was more or less invented, the question comes from syntax fatigue. Honestly, if we cant have a bit of silly fun with a toy soldier game, what's the point?
    I thought I'd bring a bit of levity into what looks dangerously like Real Life brutally invading the gaming space.
    Given that context, seemed like the RIGHT question to ask.


    And here we encounter a cultural difference. Here everyone knows that if something is "hot" you don't ask about it, you don't talk about it, you pretend you don't know what it is or that it even exist. Not saying it is the ideal way of dealing with stuff, but here it seems to be the only thing that works. Makes my life super hard though, as I generaly have a problem with noticing what topic is "hot" and which one is not.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/05 11:49:39


    Post by: Mmmpi


    Removed - BrookM


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Karol wrote:

    Just because something is in English doesn't mean it's more valuable as a term than something that's not.

    But it is. As long as words have meaning and there is cultural background to it, that the majority understands then they are. On the other hand if a word requires a in depth knowladge of culture that isn't even real, but invented. Then the name is not worth more then the sound of it. Want an example? What does the word Mąciwoda say as a description of someone? unless your slavic you would not now. On the other hand something as crude as "edbursta gives everyone with basic knowladge of english what the thing is about.


    Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

    English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/05 14:07:36


    Post by: Haighus


     SHUPPET wrote:
    There's a reason the pieces in chess are called the king and the queen even if that doesn't immediately tell you what they do, and not the "shalixthli" and the "m'carnathe" or whatever else - the names they do have tell you literally nothing until you know what they do, but once you do know, having those names in a recognisable language helps associate an identity with the ruleset attached. The relatable names do help from a gameplay perspective, even if they aren't a good restriction to place on the lore, surely we're able to acknowledge the two different aspects of 40k here?


    So what about a rook*? Without any context, a rook is a type of bird, so the Chess piece is a... fast moving piece that can fly over others? Moves around in unruly flocks? Eats carrion?

    What about pawns? The modern English understand of what a pawn is is heavily associated with Chess- pawns are expendable units because they are expendable in Chess, not the other way around. Maybe in the past pawn was a standalone word, I don't know the etymology of the term, but nowadays it is only understood within the context of how the pieces are used in Chess.


    *Yes, I am aware that many players call them castles, but that isn't correct.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 14:14:18


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Karol wrote:
     CATACLYSMUS wrote:

    Why so serious?


    Nowadays? Aren't people in the western europe losing jobs for using the wrong words or describing stuff in the wrong way? Seems like an odd question to ask.


    Cadia is just as foreign as Bork'an. Pretending that one is somehow innately more memorably or descriptive than the other is simply subjective at best, and ignorant at worst.


    But that isn't true. A word that is clearly ment for your own language and has roots in it, will always be absorbed better then something that comes out of a foreign language. Cadia has a nice latin sound to it . A cadus is a bottle, and a bottle was kind of in the neck of a chaos realm bottle. Borkan on the other hand is a persian or med word, which makes it foreign in nature. And all animals, including humans, do not like foreing things. So yeah for an europans a culexus assasin aka the mosquitto has culturaly a better hidden meaning then a gnat. Even if both words describe the same thing.


    Removed

    Imperial names have latin roots. Other factions' nonsense words have roots in other languages.

    "Gue'vesa" was brought up as a "badwrong nonsense word" earlier in the thread. Human rebels fighting a communistic revolution against an empire are called a name that sounds like "Guevara". If "Cadia" is a fine word because you can look at it and realize it has latin roots in "cadus" or "bottle" as a reference to them being a "bottleneck" against chaos, then you can notice that the anti-imperial rebels armed and supported by a rival communist superpower being called "Guevaras" is also a cute clever thing. It's similar to the eldar "Monkeigh" joke.

    There are some...I'd say pretty obvious egyptian language roots in the Necron language (I mean...phaeron...wonder what that word is supposed to look like...) and honestly, I'm sure there are other roots to the words they used that people just have not figured out yet (someone earlier in the thread brought up something about "mephrit" being a bastardization of an egyptian word).




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Removed

    I will 100% agree that every time a nonsense word appears alone on a datasheet without:

    -it being a thing that has existed for a long time
    -additional words providing context
    -easy to spot linguistic roots making it clever

    then it is badwrongthing and should be CONDEMNED!

    I have compiled an exhaustive list of all instances in the game where that occurs:

    1) Y'verna and R'vara or whatever the tau forgeworld battlesuits are called.

    2) that appears to be it.

    All tyranid names have latinate roots, all subfactions do not appear on datasheets, all totally nonsense-named special characters have descriptors (Trayzn the Infinite, Anraykyr the Traveler) or linguistic roots (Lelith Hesperax, The Yncarne) or have been around since early editions (Robute Guilliman, Asurman, etc)

    So, congrats OP, thanks to your efforts to make sure everything Imperial was labeled Good and Fine for some reason, you have identified a teeny tiny, microscopically small Thing You Are Allowed To Whine About!

    Go nuts! Have fun!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 15:48:32


    Post by: Excommunicatus


    TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 16:39:56


    Post by: the_scotsman


     Excommunicatus wrote:
    TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".


    Yeah, because when we say "foreign" we're talking about "from other countries on earth" in the context of this thread, not "from factions in this game you are personally less familiar with."

    I think (i freakin' hope, man....I hope...) it is not a controversial thing to say to say that in general, people who play 40k are pretty trained at this point to try and look for Latin word roots in their favorite units, weapon names, whatever.

    So nonsense names like the one Karol so helpfully demonstrated earlier like "Cadian" that have a latinate root to them, people will eventually figure out and understanding of what the words mean will percolate through the community.

    But the reason people know "Ghazghkull Marg'eret Thatcher" but not "Gue'vara" is not because they're not equally cute little wordplay tricks, but because Ghazghkull is a whole hell of a lot more widely discussed than Gue'vesas.

    The intricasies of Tau lore and Necron lore is less widely discussed among the playerbase, and you're less willing to give them license to use nonsense words than you are with imperial or chaos factions for that reason. They are more foreign to you.

    That's where the basic disagreement of the thread comes in. You've got someone demanding that the less well-known factions not have any gameplay-impacting elements that aren't purely descriptive (when the vast, vast majority of those elements ARE ALREADY purely descriptive) while being perfectly 100% A-OK with the thousand foot thick heap of lore that's been built up around the common, well known factions, and having rules and wargear in the game that only makes sense to the players if you have gone to Space Marine Novel #236 and read the extended edition director's cut.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 16:44:48


    Post by: Haighus


    the_scotsman wrote:
     Excommunicatus wrote:
    TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".


    Yeah, because when we say "foreign" we're talking about "from other countries on earth" in the context of this thread, not "from factions in this game you are personally less familiar with."

    I think (i freakin' hope, man....I hope...) it is not a controversial thing to say to say that in general, people who play 40k are pretty trained at this point to try and look for Latin word roots in their favorite units, weapon names, whatever.

    So nonsense names like the one Karol so helpfully demonstrated earlier like "Cadian" that have a latinate root to them, people will eventually figure out and understanding of what the words mean will percolate through the community.

    But the reason people know "Ghazghkull Marg'eret Thatcher" but not "Gue'vara" is not because they're not equally cute little wordplay tricks, but because Ghazghkull is a whole hell of a lot more widely discussed than Gue'vesas.

    The intricasies of Tau lore and Necron lore is less widely discussed among the playerbase, and you're less willing to give them license to use nonsense words than you are with imperial or chaos factions for that reason. They are more foreign to you.

    That's where the basic disagreement of the thread comes in. You've got someone demanding that the less well-known factions not have any gameplay-impacting elements that aren't purely descriptive (when the vast, vast majority of those elements ARE ALREADY purely descriptive) while being perfectly 100% A-OK with the thousand foot thick heap of lore that's been built up around the common, well known factions, and having rules and wargear in the game that only makes sense to the players if you have gone to Space Marine Novel #236 and read the extended edition director's cut.


    I am fairly sure Excommunicatus's comment was solely referring to the poster(s) saying that people don't like foreign, which of course is a massive generalisation. As in- Excommunicatus was being sarcastic.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 16:46:55


    Post by: Galas


    The_Scotsman, this is the new form of Imperial Privilege.

    Not only everything from the tabletop has to be adderent to them, also from the background.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 16:56:32


    Post by: Sterling191


    Just bloody well lock this gak of a thread already.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 17:14:54


    Post by: Excommunicatus


    Haighus wrote: As in- Excommunicatus was being sarcastic.


    Да.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 17:16:36


    Post by: BrookM


    Did some cleaning up, pruned some of the posts that were of some value to the thread.

    To all participants, kindly remember that Rule #1, to be polite is not optional and to yes, please report bad posts.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 18:49:29


    Post by: the_scotsman


     Galas wrote:
    The_Scotsman, this is the new form of Imperial Privilege.

    Not only everything from the tabletop has to be adderent to them, also from the background.


    It just boggles my mind how it doesn't matter if something is actually accurate or not.

    Look at one of the principle complaints of the OP: Tau units have nonsense names in Forgeworld?

    What is the actual Tau Forgeworld Roster?

    Shas'O R'myr: Named character. Effectively the same as "Sergeant Harker".
    Shas'O R'Alai: Another named character.

    Commander in XV81 Crisis Battlesuit
    Commander in XV84 Crisis Battlesuit
    DX-4 Technical Drones
    XV9 Hazard Support Team

    XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit
    XV107 R'Varna Battlesuit

    KX 139 Tau'Nar Supremacy Armor
    Tetra Scout Speeder Team
    Piranha Light Skimmer
    Heavy Gun Drone Squadron

    The Y'vahra and R'varna are the only two that I can definitely say "I see a potential issue here". There's nothing about the word "R'Varna" that suggests it's an anti-tank weapon platform versus the anti-infantry that seems to be the "Y'vahra". But "Supremacy Armor" definitely tells me at least as much, if not more, than "Stormsurge" - I see "Supremacy Armor" and I'm expecting it to be the biggest, baddest battlesuit they've got. "Tau'nar" means as much to me as "Castellan" or "Kytan", it's just a word, but it comes with a description afterwards, which we've seen from other posters in the thread makes it OK.

    Others are totally self-explanatory except for the "XV-whatever" number designation. Which like...if that throws you off, I don't know what to say? DX-4 Technical Drones sound like a repair unit. Oh look, they are. I'm not gonna insist that the complainers in the thread are getting their minds boggled by "Heavy Gun Drone Squadron" because it would be ridiculous and disingenuous of me to pick out 1 or 2 examples out of a vast model catalog that fit a narrative I'm trying to construct about a particular faction's stuff without actually looking at the totality of the naming conventions.

    Wouldn't it?

    But if you're gonna give a nonsense name a pass if you can figure out a pretty easy latinate root or some other well-known root to the word that clues you in on what it does (I would hope that most clever boys could look at "Canoptek" units from Necrons and realize they just referenced canopic jars from egyptian tombs, for example)

    and if you're gonna give a nonsense name a pass if you have other descriptive words after it to tell you what it does, i.e. "Catachan Jungle Fighters"

    and if you're gonna give a pass to proper names, like "Robute Guilliman"

    then you have created a situation where there is no trend towards a worrying thing. Like, at all. Two units in the entire Tau catalog don't hit one of those exceptions. No units in the necron catalog do. Or the Drukhari catalog. Or the Eldar catalog. Or the genestealer Cult catalog. Or the harlequin catalog. You're just talking about two forgeworld battlesuit units, and Necron and Tau subfaction names. It's all you've got.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:24:25


    Post by: Karol


     Mmmpi wrote:

    Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

    English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.

    It wasn't a and e. It is ą and ę. different letters, sound nothing like e or a. But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
    the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
    Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.

    Basilisk is dangerous, acceptable name for an artilery unit. I mean no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.
    As devil fish goes I always though that they were called that way, because of the horned fish from amazon that keep their young inside their mouth. But I could be wrong no idea if they are called devil fish in english too.



    am fairly sure Excommunicatus's comment was solely referring to the poster(s) saying that people don't like foreign, which of course is a massive generalisation.

    All mamels have a separate reaction outside of the normal flight or figth system. That is dedicted only to reactions to stuff that looks kind of a similar, but different. Just put a plush squirl that is natural colour and watch what squirls do it. With humans it causes funny reactions too. In tokyo they instaled human looking subway helpers. Made them as real as possible, thinking that interaction with human looking helper would be better for people looking for help. What they found out is that the very human helpers were making people uneasy, and they had to make them more robot like, so that people would actualy start using them.
    When you have a cat or other animal, you will get no sleep and it won't calm down until they check every nook and crany of a new unknown place. Even in books and film, what people like the most is seeing the same story being told over and over again. It is also why any changes to canon is so bad recived, and why people are ready to come to blows about stuff like comic lore or how do the real batman bat ears should look like. On a more daily basis it explains stuff like why food that was feed to you as a kid, has the best taste and people have litteral dreams about home bread or soup made by mom.



    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:27:47


    Post by: Octopoid


    Karol wrote:
    But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
    the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
    Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.


    "All words are made up."

    To put that another way, at one point, Hydra wasn't a word. Someone coined that word. Then it was translated into another language (or seven). Then it was adopted by one guy to be an evil organization in one publication of comics.

    The point here is, one person making up one word can make that word a thing. We shouldn't discourage that kind of creativity, even if we think it's not very creative, just because it's harder for us to engage with initially. Maybe, fifty, a hundred, a thousand years down the line, the T'au Borkan Sept will mean something totally different to someone else, and it will all be because of Games Workshop.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:35:15


    Post by: Karol


    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

    It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

    Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:44:11


    Post by: Octopoid


    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

    It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

    Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.


    Words ARE made up. At one point, "bread" was just a noise someone made. At one point EVERYTHING was just a noise, and they evolved to become something more. NOW we know what you mean when you say "bread" (assuming we're both English speakers), but there are people in the world today that if you say "bread," they won't know what you're talking about. One type of words has a meaning NOW, and one type of words doesn't have a meaning NOW, but that doesn't mean they can't or won't. They can (and will).

    There are people in the world today that know exactly what Borkan means. Just because you're not one of them, doesn't mean the word has no value.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:47:22


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

    It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

    Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.


    You are aware that one of the strengths of the English language, specifically a product of the Germanic influences upon it is it's ability to make up new words right? You're aware that the only thing actually defining those new words is context right? You're aware that many words we use today didn't even exist 50, or 100 years ago right? You know that a kleenex is a brand name, made up, that has wormed it's way into the common vernacular to mean a tissue for blowing your nose?

    I mean, you contradict yourself in your own post, if words aren't made up then how does, as you stated, 'a word start'? Is it immaculate conception? Did the word spring forth in a moment of divine inspiration? Did god appear like a Monty Python cartoon and scream, 'STOP CALLING IT THAT! Use this word instead!'?

    So yes, words are made up, their etymology may be very old, but imagining that bread or sun has some inherent meaning because of something inherent to it's sound I guess, is, well, a bit silly.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 20:57:11


    Post by: Dandelion


    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


    Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

    To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 21:13:19


    Post by: Pleasestop


    Dandelion wrote:
    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


    Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

    To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


    So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

    Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 21:16:34


    Post by: Octopoid


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


    Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

    To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


    So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

    Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


    Yes, and the counter-argument is that Shass'O'shassero is just as valid, also "things should be English or close to" is extremely Anglocentric. Expand your mind.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 21:54:34


    Post by: Dandelion


    Pleasestop wrote:

    Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want.


    Why should the table top only be in proper English?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/06 22:37:46


    Post by: Galas


    You people should read Darklands rulebook...


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 00:58:28


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


    Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

    To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


    So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

    Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


    "Shas'o" is at least as valid as "Exarch", "Autarch", "Primus" or "Tempestor" - they're literally all just made up ranks. Shas'o R'myr is a guy's name and his rank, pretty much identical to "Sergeant Telion". Almost literally nothing in the Tau codex has neither an english name nor an english descriptor, the ONLY things you can pull out are proper names...which...like if you can't grant that, that's just silly, and exactly two forgeworld models.

    Forgeworld, company of such memorable names as CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and ADEPTIMUS CUSTODES EXCELORPTIORIUMUSTICAR MAXIMO. Saying "Forgeworld is sometimes bad at naming" is pretty non-controversial.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Give me completely meaningless or subtly coded xenos names over the cringeworthy vomit of hideously obvious fake latin pouring out of the imperium with each new release.

    "Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 01:30:41


    Post by: Mmmpi


    Exarch are late period roman political ranks, similar to military governors. Also a low rank member of the Easter Orthodox Church.

    An Autarch is someone with complete (autocratic) power.

    Both don't quite fit their 40K uses.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 01:40:14


    Post by: Apple Peel



    "Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"


    Corrections-

    In High Gothic—
    Militarum Tempestus: Tempestor Prime with Canna Militarum, Reporting For Duty!

    In Low Gothic—
    Stormtroopers: Tempestor Prime with Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!

    It’s funny, because this is basically simplified in the way OP wanted, I believe.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 01:43:53


    Post by: Mmmpi


    Spoiler:
    Karol wrote:
     Mmmpi wrote:

    Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

    English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.

    It wasn't a and e. It is ą and ę. different letters, sound nothing like e or a. But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
    the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
    Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.

    Basilisk is dangerous, acceptable name for an artilery unit. I mean no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.
    As devil fish goes I always though that they were called that way, because of the horned fish from amazon that keep their young inside their mouth. But I could be wrong no idea if they are called devil fish in english too.



    I know it wasn't a direct a or e, I was just lazy about copy/paste. Besides, when written in English, you use the a/e letters anyway.
    No. Not everyone will. As you can see by this thread alone, roughly 60% of the responses are in favor of 'xenos' names, rather than straight English, because it adds to the feel of the army. Changing the names would in many ways be the same as me (an American) insisting everyone in Poland call their capital Warsaw rather than Warszawa.
    Captain America saying Hail Hydra made Marvel fans on youtube blow up. There happen to be a lot of them. But the phrase and usage is meaningless to people who aren't fans of at least the movies. And that's in English. Context is everything. As for cow/kow, you obviously didn't grow up in 90's America, where yes, spelling words that way actually was considered cool. Actually, come to think of it, L337 is pretty much the same thing...for people who understood the context.

    A basilisk is dangerous. But calling a self-propelled artillery piece that isn't very descriptive. Warhogs are known for their toughness and tenasity. Warthog is only a nickname anyway, the actual official name is Thunderbolt II. A devil fish (in the anglo-world) is a type of stingray.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 08:39:59


    Post by: chromedog


    Karol wrote:

    no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.


    It wasn't named after a species of heretofore unknown flying porcine mammals.

    It is officially the A-10 Thunderbolt II. The "Warthog" name was coined because it's a "Pig-ugly" aircraft that spends a lot of time with it's snout in the trough (like any ground attack capable aircraft - also like the F-111 - referred to as an "aardvark" for the same reasons ).


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 12:50:49


    Post by: Sterling191


     chromedog wrote:
    The "Warthog" name was coined because it's a "Pig-ugly" aircraft that spends a lot of time with it's snout in the trough (like any ground attack capable aircraft - also like the F-111 - referred to as an "aardvark" for the same reasons ).


    And yet, when you really need one, its one of the most beautiful sights you'll ever see.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:01:21


    Post by: Pleasestop


    the_scotsman wrote:
    Pleasestop wrote:
    Dandelion wrote:
    Karol wrote:
    No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


    Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

    To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


    So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

    Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


    "Shas'o" is at least as valid as "Exarch", "Autarch", "Primus" or "Tempestor" - they're literally all just made up ranks. Shas'o R'myr is a guy's name and his rank, pretty much identical to "Sergeant Telion". Almost literally nothing in the Tau codex has neither an english name nor an english descriptor, the ONLY things you can pull out are proper names...which...like if you can't grant that, that's just silly, and exactly two forgeworld models.

    Forgeworld, company of such memorable names as CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and ADEPTIMUS CUSTODES EXCELORPTIORIUMUSTICAR MAXIMO. Saying "Forgeworld is sometimes bad at naming" is pretty non-controversial.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Give me completely meaningless or subtly coded xenos names over the cringeworthy vomit of hideously obvious fake latin pouring out of the imperium with each new release.

    "Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"


    Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?

    We're making the same damn argument! Tempestor and Adeptus Astartes and all the other gibberish is dumb, whether it's faux Latin or whatever Tau is supposed to be! Stormtrooper Sargent with Command Rod vs Militarism Tempests Tempestor with Tempest Command rod.

    Same for Commander Shadowsun vs Shas'o whatever.

    Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words -- however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:24:31


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


    Because the only logic to your argument is that you want comfortable, familiar, anglo-centric words that jibe with your rather narrow definition of what should be acceptable language.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    We're making the same damn argument!


    No, you're really not. You're making an arbitrary judgement based upon what you perceive to be nonsense, he's pointing out that even the words you approve of because they 'make sense', are arbitrary, made up words, so your entire premise is a product of cognitive or cultural bias.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words


    No, they're archaic Italian words, or French in the case of sergeant, but your cognitive or cultural bias is such that they seem ok to you.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:25:30


    Post by: Sterling191


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


    Because every time you reply with a xenophobic screed about how your, and only your, infantile linguistic preferences are valid you make it abundantly clear that you don't get it.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:37:57


    Post by: Pleasestop


     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    Pleasestop wrote:
    Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


    Because the only logic to your argument is that you want comfortable, familiar, anglo-centric words that jibe with your rather narrow definition of what should be acceptable language.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    We're making the same damn argument!



    No, you're really not. You're making an arbitrary judgement based upon what you perceive to be nonsense, he's pointing out that even the words you approve of because they 'make sense', are arbitrary, made up words, so your entire premise is a product of cognitive or cultural bias.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words


    No, they're archaic Italian words, or French in the case of sergeant, but your cognitive or cultural bias is such that they seem ok to you.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    Dartagnan is french, not English. Which is what the game is written in. If I was in France, I'd imagine there's different names that correspond to french. In fact, the boxes go out of their way and say that! Such as the Dred Eud'la Mort.

    Exarch, English - a bishop lower in rank than a patriarch and having jurisdiction wider than the metropolitan of a diocese

    Autarch, English - a ruler with absolute power.

    Maybe they were adopted in to English, as gasp, that's how languages work, but they are English words.

    And I don't know why it's rascist that I think names like Stormtrooper is better than Tempestus? Or that commander is better than Shas'o?

    But no one cares about that side of it, it's just let's jump on the fact that this person doesn't like "vaguely foreign" gibberish but prefers names like Stormtrooper or Commander or Deathleaper to Y'hvara, Tervigon and Tempestus!

    But of course it's easier to declare anyone who you disagree with as rascist, without even acknowledging the arguments they are making! It's not that, maybe, as a tabletop game.that most people play maybe once a month and only a fraction of the players play the lore, that thinking some names make more sense than others?


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:39:31


    Post by: Haighus


    Just going to point out that the vast majority of Tau commanders ARE called commander, and it is a couple of FW ones which are not.

    Also Deathleaper is a named version of a Lictor, which is no more silly than a Tervigon.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:47:22


    Post by: Excommunicatus


     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    D'Artagnan is, in fairness, a French character in a novel by a French writer. Mr. Darcy would have been a better example.

    It's not a contraction, but my favourite is chief buffoon, arch-Brexiteer and model of Britishness, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nobody takes issue with the fact that you think some phrases make more sense than others. It is being pointed out that said opinion is based in large part, if not entirely, on ignorance.

    Again, there's a very simple reason why Telemachus sounds like a weird forename to you and Jason doesn't. It's simple usage.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:51:00


    Post by: Sterling191


    Pleasestop wrote:

    Maybe they were adopted in to English, as gasp, that's how languages work, but they are English words.


    Pleasestop wrote:

    And I don't know why it's rascist that I think names like Stormtrooper is better than Tempestus? Or that commander is better than Shas'o?


    Because you are literally telling anyone who opens this thread that you want English, nothing but English, and only things influenced by the English.

    If you feth goats ironically, no matter your intent, you're still a goat fether.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 18:52:24


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Tervigon is a variation on an old english word for an overbearing or quarrelsome wife, which follows along with the latinate/old english naming convention for all tyranid units. AFAIK, none of their units have pure nonsense names, many of them just have the suffixes changed to "on" to keep them linguistically consistent.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Haighus wrote:
    Just going to point out that the vast majority of Tau commanders ARE called commander, and it is a couple of FW ones which are not.

    Also Deathleaper is a named version of a Lictor, which is no more silly than a Tervigon.


    Also, for the most part (admittedly I'd never even heard of the FW tau ones before this) when they are called "Shas'o" it's because they're making a joke.

    "Shas'O Kais" and "Shas'O R'yleigh" or whatever his name is are probably meant to be plays on the "OK" and "O'Reilly". Just like "Gue'vesa" is a play on "Guevara".

    Also, apostrophes make a word harder to say? Maybe if you're familiar with a different european language other than english. In english you've got plenty of experience saying contractions, so it shouldn't be too difficult. Oh god, Shas'o, what do I do, how do I pronounce that?

    Oh right, it's probably "Shass-Oh." Easy enough. Just like the apostrophe was never there!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 19:08:33


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Dartagnan is french, not English. Which is what the game is written in. If I was in France, I'd imagine there's different names that correspond to french. In fact, the boxes go out of their way and say that! Such as the Dred Eud'la Mort.


    Yes, well, reading is a solid plan, given I mentioned his European origin, not English.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Exarch, English - a bishop lower in rank than a patriarch and having jurisdiction wider than the metropolitan of a diocese


    Cool, since we're learning today, let's try a new word for you, it's called etymology, and it concerns the study and origin of words. The etymology of this word is actually Greek and Latin.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Autarch, English - a ruler with absolute power.


    Again, etymology, Greek, Latin.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Maybe they were adopted in to English, as gasp, that's how languages work, but they are English words.


    Actually, that's quite specifically how English works, ask the French how they feel about throwing new words into their language (they're rather famously picky about it). English is very flexible and easily integrates new words, and yet, here you are, complaining about new words, ironic.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    And I don't know why it's rascist that I think names like Stormtrooper is better than Tempestus? Or that commander is better than Shas'o?


    Strangely I never said racist (not rascist, despite its association with fascist). Perhaps a better understanding of cognitive bias would be helpful.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    But no one cares about that side of it, it's just let's jump on the fact that this person doesn't like "vaguely foreign" gibberish but prefers names like Stormtrooper or Commander or Deathleaper to Y'hvara, Tervigon and Tempestus!


    You started this thread, not sure much more needs to be said beyond that, but I will anyways, you invited this debate and consequently, its results.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 19:22:04


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Pleasestop wrote:

    Right? I don't get why your being such an ass

    Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words -- however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


    Because ridiculous premesis should be approached with ridicule. And, importantly, I am ridiculing your argument, an example of which I've included in the second half of the quote here. Not you as a person. People can make completely ridiculous arguments, while not being, like 'Sub-human scum of the earth' or whatever. The idea that "Exarch" and "Sargent" are "real english words" while "Tempestor" and "Primus" are "dumb made up words" is just frankly the funniest little internet snit I've seen someone get into in a long time, and I'm just having a hell of a time with you giving examples of what's wrongbad and what's goodpure so really, I'd just adore if you could keep it up.

    All of the words you just listed are bastardizations or appropriations of foreign words...like all of english, and all of pretty much every spoken language. And like..."Shas'O" has five letters. Two vowels. If I told you my name was "John O'flannigan" I would challenge you to argue that my name is less confusing than the pronunciation of "Shas'O."

    And every Tau unit uses the exact same command rank structure, and all their ranks use the prefix "Shas". If I look on a datasheet and it says "The unit has four fire warrior Shas'las and one fire warrior Shas'ui" then, through the magic of context and having a brain, I can figure out preeeetty easily what a "shas'ui" is.

    A quick google shows me that this lingo has been in the Tau codex and on their datasheets since the inception of the Tau since 2001. So I'm not saying you've had a little while to figure this nomenclature out, but I am saying if you had a baby when these confusing wrongbad made up words first appeared in the rules for 40k they'd currently be eligible to smoke and appear in adult films today.



    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 19:25:53


    Post by: Drager


    Pleasestop wrote:
    Spoiler:
     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    Pleasestop wrote:
    Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


    Because the only logic to your argument is that you want comfortable, familiar, anglo-centric words that jibe with your rather narrow definition of what should be acceptable language.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    We're making the same damn argument!



    No, you're really not. You're making an arbitrary judgement based upon what you perceive to be nonsense, he's pointing out that even the words you approve of because they 'make sense', are arbitrary, made up words, so your entire premise is a product of cognitive or cultural bias.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words


    No, they're archaic Italian words, or French in the case of sergeant, but your cognitive or cultural bias is such that they seem ok to you.

    Pleasestop wrote:
    however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    Dartagnan is french, not English. Which is what the game is written in. If I was in France, I'd imagine there's different names that correspond to french. In fact, the boxes go out of their way and say that! Such as the Dred Eud'la Mort.

    Exarch, English - a bishop lower in rank than a patriarch and having jurisdiction wider than the metropolitan of a diocese

    Autarch, English - a ruler with absolute power.

    Maybe they were adopted in to English, as gasp, that's how languages work, but they are English words.

    And I don't know why it's rascist that I think names like Stormtrooper is better than Tempestus? Or that commander is better than Shas'o?

    But no one cares about that side of it, it's just let's jump on the fact that this person doesn't like "vaguely foreign" gibberish but prefers names like Stormtrooper or Commander or Deathleaper to Y'hvara, Tervigon and Tempestus!

    But of course it's easier to declare anyone who you disagree with as rascist, without even acknowledging the arguments they are making! It's not that, maybe, as a tabletop game.that most people play maybe once a month and only a fraction of the players play the lore, that thinking some names make more sense than others?
    You have a cognitive and cultural bias, no one is calling you racist, but they are trying to point out the way in which your biases appear to be shaping your opinion. We all have those biases, they're a part of being human.

    Side note: I know almost no one speaks Welsh, but did you know Pasg (pronounced Pask) in Welsh means Easter? So we have Tank Commander Easter, which makes me want to put bunny ears on him.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 19:31:35


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    Drager wrote:
    You have a cognitive and cultural bias, no one is calling you racist, but they are trying to point out the way in which your biases appear to be shaping your opinion. We all have those biases, they're a part of being human.


    This, honestly, understanding this and how it influences opinion, perception, and behavior is very enlightening.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 19:39:12


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Also, so does reading the 2001 3rd edition Tau codex! Man, what a trip through memory lane. You know, before this scary annoying modern trend of giving units total nonsense names, back when the back page stat list for Tau units read:

    Aun
    Crisis Shas'o
    Crisis Shas'el
    Broadside Shas'vre
    Crisis Shas'Vre
    Stealth Shas'Vre
    Shas'ui
    Shas'la
    Shaper
    Kroot
    Gun Drone
    Kroot Hound
    Krootox
    Shield Drone

    And before this silly copyright panic from GW when they added all these stupid made-up names for Tau subfactions, when the different septs were called

    T'au (Awhaaaat, I thought they added the apostrophe because muh chapterhouse???)
    Vior'la
    Dar'lyth
    Bor'kan
    Sa'cea

    Weird, it's almost like in successive editions they've had a tendency to add more plain english or latinate descriptive words and remove weird alien made up words to the rules of the xenos factions.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    also shout out to when Codexes told you to make custom terrain out of flowerpots and plasticard, included tactics and batreps, custom campaign missions and paint guides told you to "be inspired by your favorite movies!"

    What a trip!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 20:23:17


    Post by: Haighus


    Huh! Using flowerpots for Tau terrain, why have I never thought of that?!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 22:06:42


    Post by: Racerguy180


    Sterling191 wrote:
     chromedog wrote:
    The "Warthog" name was coined because it's a "Pig-ugly" aircraft that spends a lot of time with it's snout in the trough (like any ground attack capable aircraft - also like the F-111 - referred to as an "aardvark" for the same reasons ).


    And yet, when you really need one, its one of the most beautiful sights you'll ever see.



    Nothing in the world sounds like 30mm GAU-8 decimating whatever it's targeting.

    But back on topic.

    I like the "native" names for non imperial factions. But I also like the low gothic translations/nicknames for them as well.

    The Mitsubishi Zero is its nickname in english. Whereas rei-shiki-kanjō-sentōki is its actual model designation. The MIG-25 is actually Микоян и Гуревич МиГ-25 but its NATO nickname is Foxbat. Now, I have zero problem pronouncing either proper name, but Zero & Foxbat are easier than having to think off the top of my head trying to remember how they're pronounced.

    Both ways are technically correct and since all of this discussion is about words that are only connected to the game are made up.

    How about this;
    M1A1 Abrams. does the name mean anything specific about its combat role?
    OH-58 Kiowa?
    BB63 Missouri?
    MI-24 Hind?

    They're called what ever they're called.
    Get over not being able to pronounce stuff, you can just come up with something to call them on your own. Names are names cuz someone called them that. no special formula or reason, just cuz.

    Drukhari=Drew Carey
    Aeldari=Al Dary
    T'au=Lame(jk)


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/07 23:52:34


    Post by: Mmmpi


    For those of you arguing for pure descriptive English, how does this fit?

    Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
    þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
    hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
    Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
    monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
    egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
    feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
    weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
    oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
    ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
    gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning.

    This is pure English, with very few outside words. Back when there were 29-30 letters.

    Because I'd rather use the system we're using now that this.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/08 11:44:43


    Post by: Pleasestop


     Excommunicatus wrote:
     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    D'Artagnan is, in fairness, a French character in a novel by a French writer. Mr. Darcy would have been a better example.

    It's not a contraction, but my favourite is chief buffoon, arch-Brexiteer and model of Britishness, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nobody takes issue with the fact that you think some phrases make more sense than others. It is being pointed out that said opinion is based in large part, if not entirely, on ignorance.

    Again, there's a very simple reason why Telemachus sounds like a weird forename to you and Jason doesn't. It's simple usage.


    I'm sorry I'm ignorant of fictitious alien cultures?

    Like, really? The Tau/Necrons/Eldar arent real, guys.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/08 12:07:52


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Pleasestop wrote:
     Excommunicatus wrote:
     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?


    D'Artagnan is, in fairness, a French character in a novel by a French writer. Mr. Darcy would have been a better example.

    It's not a contraction, but my favourite is chief buffoon, arch-Brexiteer and model of Britishness, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nobody takes issue with the fact that you think some phrases make more sense than others. It is being pointed out that said opinion is based in large part, if not entirely, on ignorance.

    Again, there's a very simple reason why Telemachus sounds like a weird forename to you and Jason doesn't. It's simple usage.


    I'm sorry I'm ignorant of fictitious alien cultures?

    Like, really? The Tau/Necrons/Eldar arent real, guys.


    When you continuously make the argument "This is better because it's got real meaning, this is bad because it doesn't" and the reason you think the second thing doesn't is that you're just ignorant of what it means, the thesis of your argument is demonstrably wrong.

    We all get that tau eldar necrons whatever aren't real. This is a thread discussing fictional names in a fictional setting. We're pointing out that the reasoning behind your judgement of quality is wrong because of your ignorance, and the only argument you can actually honestly make is "This is better because I like it, this is bad because I don't."

    You have no objective basis for your claims. The various arguments made in this thread to attempt to provide some kind of objective backing for its starting premise of "I like this, I don't like that" are what we are proving false.

    1) Names from the non-latinate factions are meaningless

    2) Names from the non-latinate factions are extremely common in gameplay-pertinent areas and are confusing

    3) Names from the non-latinate factions are more difficult to pronounce

    4) The amount of names from non-latinate factions has increased recently, and have not always appeared in codexes

    You're allowed to have a preference. Just don't try to invent fake reasons why your opinion is "the real truth".


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/08 12:19:14


    Post by: Mmmpi


    Here here!


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/08 14:27:22


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    the_scotsman wrote:
    You have no objective basis for your claims. The various arguments made in this thread to attempt to provide some kind of objective backing for its starting premise of "I like this, I don't like that" are what we are proving false.

    1) Names from the non-latinate factions are meaningless

    2) Names from the non-latinate factions are extremely common in gameplay-pertinent areas and are confusing

    3) Names from the non-latinate factions are more difficult to pronounce

    4) The amount of names from non-latinate factions has increased recently, and have not always appeared in codexes

    You're allowed to have a preference. Just don't try to invent fake reasons why your opinion is "the real truth".


    Precisely this.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/09 18:53:28


    Post by: Elemental


    If someone called you racist, you should definitely report that post.

    Also, "Termagant" is an archaic term meaning "a violent, turbulent, or brawling woman."


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/09 19:00:17


    Post by: Daston


     Galas wrote:
    Tyranids names are 100% imperial both the fleets and the units.



    That was the deal for all the xenos at one point, the whole system was designed to be from humanities view point as they struggle on the knife edge of apocalypse. Since the #TMNamesMatter BS that came along during the death of Warhammer Fantasy every race now has stupid names that no one seems to refer to them as making their existence rather moot.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/09 22:37:25


    Post by: Mmmpi


     Elemental wrote:
    If someone called you racist, you should definitely report that post.

    Also, "Termagant" is an archaic term meaning "a violent, turbulent, or brawling woman."


    Literally no one called him a racist. Everyone has been going out of their way to make it clear that they're not.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/10 07:31:31


    Post by: Elemental


     Mmmpi wrote:
     Elemental wrote:
    If someone called you racist, you should definitely report that post.


    Literally no one called him a racist. Everyone has been going out of their way to make it clear that they're not.


    I know. But if he thinks someone did, the correct response is to report / block / move on rather than throw a multi-page wobbly about it, and drive this thread off a cliff.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/10 09:18:46


    Post by: Drager


     Elemental wrote:
     Mmmpi wrote:
     Elemental wrote:
    If someone called you racist, you should definitely report that post.


    Literally no one called him a racist. Everyone has been going out of their way to make it clear that they're not.


    I know. But if he thinks someone did, the correct response is to report / block / move on rather than throw a multi-page wobbly about it, and drive this thread off a cliff.
    I'd hope that if someone said that something one did was racist the correct response would be the below, but maybe that's just me. I understand your point though, which seems to be somewhat satirical and no one was called racist in this thread.

    (1) Consider if they are right, self reflect, even if it wasn't intended was it racist by accident?
    (2) Consider if they appear to be trolling or if they appear to honestly believe what they said
    (3) If you think they are trolling, report/block/move on
    (4) If you don't think they are trolling, but it's off topic, maybe report anyway (for off topic, not R1 breach)
    (5) Move on now you have calmly considered it.



    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/10 11:30:23


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Daston wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Tyranids names are 100% imperial both the fleets and the units.



    That was the deal for all the xenos at one point, the whole system was designed to be from humanities view point as they struggle on the knife edge of apocalypse. Since the #TMNamesMatter BS that came along during the death of Warhammer Fantasy every race now has stupid names that no one seems to refer to them as making their existence rather moot.


    I mean, on one hand it's easy to throw a snit about it like it's "PC Culture" but this is a multimillion dollar company that was told they literally could not trademark their IP in court.

    You do that to any company, they are going to change things names to something that it is possible to trademark. Imagine if (this is laughable because in america companies own the government, but imagine with me for a second) a court told Disney they couldn't trademark Stormtrooper.

    Or, better example, imagine if they told them they didn't have the rights to Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.

    D'you figure they'd shrug and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on Avengers movies and make sure every character is REALLY careful to call them Wanda Maximoff and...gak I already forget, waldo maximoff maybe? Remember how they did that?

    Point being, for GW being the most profitable entertainment company in GB, chapterhouse was kind of a thermonuclear warhead to their IP. They lost trademark enforcement rights on Space Marine, StormTrooper, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Dwarf, Elf, Orc (but not Ork, which is why they're still called that in 40k), and a bunch of other gak.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/10 13:58:31


    Post by: Galas


    Yeah, as much as I don't like that much many of the new names (With others I are fine. Like Drukhari. For me, Drukhari, Aeldari, etc... are just like the fantasy Asur, Druchii, etc... ), I absolutely understand why GW does it.


    The times of "Warriors of Chaos" has pass, boys. Is "Murderhost of the Everchosen" from now on.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/10 22:09:49


    Post by: EnTyme


    the_scotsman wrote:

    waldo maximoff


    adjusts horn rim glasses

    Pietro.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/13 13:41:19


    Post by: Dakka Wolf


     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    You know ‘Raptor’ is a bird of prey right?
    Eagles, hawks, falcons - all Raptors.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/13 17:10:14


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Dakka Wolf wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    You know ‘Raptor’ is a bird of prey right?
    Eagles, hawks, falcons - all Raptors.


    Yes. I was referring the the "fire" part. Which is not a weather effect in the same vein of the rest of them. It could have been a Cyclone Raptor, Thunder Raptor, Storm Raptor, Blizzard Raptor, Lightning Raptor (okay, those last two are a bit daft but they fit the pattern better than "fire".).


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/13 17:10:36


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Yeah, Raptor doesn't just refer to a bipedal dinosaur, which, funnily enough, also happened to be feathered.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 01:31:12


    Post by: Dakka Wolf


     Grimtuff wrote:
     Dakka Wolf wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    You know ‘Raptor’ is a bird of prey right?
    Eagles, hawks, falcons - all Raptors.


    Yes. I was referring the the "fire" part. Which is not a weather effect in the same vein of the rest of them. It could have been a Cyclone Raptor, Thunder Raptor, Storm Raptor, Blizzard Raptor, Lightning Raptor (okay, those last two are a bit daft but they fit the pattern better than "fire".).

    Fire can be a weather effect.
    We get fire storms in Australia, half are lit by people but half are lit by weather, lightning, sun or wind friction.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 01:52:59


    Post by: the_scotsman


     Dakka Wolf wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Dakka Wolf wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.


    And SM flyers all have weather effect + bird going on.

    Thunderhawk
    Stormbird
    Stormeagle
    Stormhawk
    Stormtalon
    Stormraven
    Land Speeder Storm/Tornado/Typhoon
    Fire Raptor (that's the only one that breaks the nomenclature IMO)


    You know ‘Raptor’ is a bird of prey right?
    Eagles, hawks, falcons - all Raptors.


    Yes. I was referring the the "fire" part. Which is not a weather effect in the same vein of the rest of them. It could have been a Cyclone Raptor, Thunder Raptor, Storm Raptor, Blizzard Raptor, Lightning Raptor (okay, those last two are a bit daft but they fit the pattern better than "fire".).

    Fire can be a weather effect.
    We get fire storms in Australia, half are lit by people but half are lit by weather, lightning, sun or wind friction.


    "Fire is weather in Australia"

    -Dakka Wolf

    [Thumb - 1171801_0002_001_crop.jpg]


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 02:42:59


    Post by: EnTyme


    Yet more evidence we were never meant to live in Australia. It was supposed to be God's thunderdome.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 03:55:23


    Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


    the_scotsman wrote:


    "Fire is weather in Australia"

    -Dakka Wolf


    Fire is also normal weather in California.

    We don't have all the aggressive wildlife, though, and don't consider poisonous centipede infestations normal weather.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 15:15:10


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     EnTyme wrote:
    Yet more evidence realize we were never meant to live in Australia. It was supposed to be God's thunderdome.


    I'm still surprised that there's no deathworld based on Australia. Catachan is more space Vietnam, judging by the foliage and the Rambo expies.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 15:20:37


    Post by: Drager


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
     EnTyme wrote:
    Yet more evidence realize we were never meant to live in Australia. It was supposed to be God's thunderdome.


    I'm still surprised that there's no deathworld based on Australia. Catachan is more space Vietnam, judging by the foliage and the Rambo expies.
    You can't make a deathworld based on Australia. Not different enough from real Australia to trademark.


    Poorly-named factions @ 2019/05/14 15:35:13


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Dakka Wolf wrote:

    Fire can be a weather effect.
    We get fire storms in Australia, half are lit by people but half are lit by weather, lightning, sun or wind friction.


    You'll note I said "in the same vein". All of the other are wind/sky-based weather effects with "fire" being the only outlier.