So I realize if you’re buying from a GW store, you’re getting it tomorrow (like me). But if you can get it from an independent, you might already have the book. So how good is it? I know the individual warscrolls are on the app, but what about the battalions and synergies in the rules. The artifacts and warlord traits? How much fun is this book looking?
timetowaste85 wrote: Hah. Yeah, so like me you’re stuck waiting until tomorrow, eh? Or are you pouring through it and making an edjucated opinion in the morning?
Afaik stores are not supposed to sell stuff on Friday regardless of location, at least my flgs abides by that. But I buy them in the app anyways.
Stores are not allowed to sell stuff early, but many will post the product with the intention that it arrives on or after Saturday, though sometimes the postal service is nice and it arrives early.
Personally I'm still waiting on mine, its in the postal system so I'm fingers crossed it arrives tomorrow, but if not it will be a LONG wait until Tuesday (Bank Holiday on Monday in the UK).
You didn't see the battle reports on social media, already ?
One example :
Basically, the book seems to be made against armies with multiple wounds miniatures. Feels like FEC and Idoneth will not enjoy their tricks, and the Keeper of Secrets is basically a depravity engine. It can add up quite fast against some specific builds.
One thing I'm noticing quickly is that the Battalions are much more sensible. Comparing them back against Daughters of Khaine, where one was well over 5K in points and another was heavily reliant on a block of Stormcast, the Slaanesh Battalions are all quite practical to field within an army. Even the combined Battalion is quite practical in a points sense. They also got them onto a two page spread by cutting the big pictures about each one, which makes them far easier to compare and read.
It's also nice to see the cults and different subfaction paint schemes and the paint section alone is quite a bit more fleshed out. I think GW is pushing hard to get the purple world of Slaanesh diversified and get gamers encouraged into different schemes. A welcome addition to the book!
One thing I'm noticing quickly is that the Battalions are much more sensible. Comparing them back against Daughters of Khaine, where one was well over 5K in points and another was heavily reliant on a block of Stormcast, the Slaanesh Battalions are all quite practical to field within an army. Even the combined Battalion is quite practical in a points sense. They also got them onto a two page spread by cutting the big pictures about each one, which makes them far easier to compare and read.
It's also nice to see the cults and different subfaction paint schemes and the paint section alone is quite a bit more fleshed out. I think GW is pushing hard to get the purple world of Slaanesh diversified and get gamers encouraged into different schemes. A welcome addition to the book!
Feels like they've scaled a lot of battalions back to make them more accessible this year. Old Battalions used to be so large that I wondered if they were only designed for Apoc sized battles.
Aye which is fine, save that GW hasn't pushed Apoc style games on AoS much yet. Plus AoS, whilst having a huge legacy, is still sortof the new game since the old world shed so many fans and didn't build a huge host of new ones. Time isn't ripe yet for GW to really push for such vast armies at a major scale (esp when most are still not even complete small and regular armies with rules).
It indeed makes them far more accessible, it might also be that GW is going to put a load of 3 and 5 K battalions into Generals Handbook for all the armies and roll "extreme" game sizes out that way as a big feature one year.
One thing I'm noticing quickly is that the Battalions are much more sensible. Comparing them back against Daughters of Khaine, where one was well over 5K in points and another was heavily reliant on a block of Stormcast, the Slaanesh Battalions are all quite practical to field within an army. Even the combined Battalion is quite practical in a points sense. They also got them onto a two page spread by cutting the big pictures about each one, which makes them far easier to compare and read.
It's also nice to see the cults and different subfaction paint schemes and the paint section alone is quite a bit more fleshed out. I think GW is pushing hard to get the purple world of Slaanesh diversified and get gamers encouraged into different schemes. A welcome addition to the book!
Feels like they've scaled a lot of battalions back to make them more accessible this year. Old Battalions used to be so large that I wondered if they were only designed for Apoc sized battles.
Agreed, a good change. I am still sad that Nurgle didn't get a part of this... one of their battalions requires three tallybands T-T
auticus wrote: Characterful. Some integration with mortals (6 to hit does extra hits is for all slaanesh) and path to glory has mortals.
Nothing screams busted. There are some strong options but nothing so bent as fec, skaven, or daughters.
Overall pretty solid but will suffer against power lists.
My only real concern is the way they've built heroes into the depravity point generation system at the same time as they've bumped their costs all up. There's no hero under 120 points, so if you fill your leaders slots that is, at the very least, 720 points. That's a bit of an issue as that is as cheap as you can go whilst generating depravity points and doesn't leave a wealth of points for infantry, troops, demons, fiends and the like. I feel like they've come at two angles - one of boosting the armies magic by giving heralds wizard status, which bumped up their cost; whilst at the same time trying to introduce a new summon resource generation and tagging it onto leaders.
Then again that viewpoint is only focusing on depravity generation within an army, and there's certainly going to be tactics well outside of it. Plus throw in one keeper alone and that's a huge depravity generator on its own with its high number of attacks and wounds.
Slaanesh seems well suited to being a character hunting army; able to tackle but not benefit from dealing with swarms and likely aiming to snipe and kill off enemy monsters and leaders above all else. Armies with lots of multi-wound infantry might suffer against them, whilst those with a lot of single wound infantry are going to do better; at least in terms of depravity generation.
Basically they didnt make the obvious summon spam build. If you want to try and spam depravity there is a risk in the investment.
As it should be. However right now other books and forces like seraphon and legion of nagash and fec can bust summoning, so depravity looks poor in comparison.
So I've gotten through the crunch, and it seems like a very finesse army where performance is dramatically affected by which characters you take, how you equip them, and your skill at utilizing them on the battlefield. The troops & buffs for them are rather straightforward, but the ability to screw with the enemy is quite high.
Sidenote; a 30-man blob of marked warriors is really good for a Slaanesh army.
Finished my first game with new Slaanesh. Pretty fun and has some interesting combos. I feel we moved sideways from where we were. Still strong, we got some good battalions that don't feel awful and have good synergies. We're hero hungry, but we can spawn in more heroes, and if done right, you can always be healing on your keepers to keep them in the fight. I went from 6 wounds remaining back up to 11 wounds in a single turn. Will have to see how it all pans out more.
That does not stop fnp abilities like disgustingly resilient because those are not saves. It is just clarifying that no armor save is made.
I like that one too, because it is good but also high cost (though I would have put it a bit higher personally) and because having stuff do mortals on 6's to wound does not bother me. It is essentially saying 'on a 6 to wound no save' verses when it is on hit rolls where the attack gets to skip rolling to wound entirely on top of ignoring the save.
I like all the Slaanesh battalions for that matter. I wish they get more of them, but with the design they went with everything is covered and all the options are useful so I really can't complain.
Clarifying in the rules that there is no armor save made on a mortal wound is kind of... stupidly pointless. The core rules already specify mortal wounds give you no normal save.
They could have just spared putting that in there and said 6s are mortal wounds.
And thats frustrating for me because it seemed obvious it meant no save was able to be made. Unless its stating that the only type of actual save is a regular armor save which loops me back to why bother clarifying you don't get an armor save against mortal wounds when that is covered in the core rules. No other mortal wound ability has this clarification anywhere in the game. Its unique to that battalion.
That was my interpretation. Otherwise there is no need for it to have the no save clarification. I think its a hard counter to things like daughters bouncing wounds in your face, etc.
Well daughters bounce MWs on unmodified saves of 6, so it does counter that. But as it stands fnp abilities are just that; abilities. MWs explicitly say they don't allow saves, so if those abilities did count as saves then MWs from any source would ignore them.
So we've gotten some Hedonist games under our belt in our group (competitive play), and here are my impressions on it:
Very finesse. I don't want to call them a glass cannon, but they're certainly fragile. They hit hard and fast (with a lot of options to force opponents to Fight Last), but if you hit them with any concerted effort, they crumple like wet paper. A large part of their survivability is tied to being able to force ASL onto their opponents and then doing as much damage as they can before your units can retaliate.
Shalaxi is not great. When she can hit a target she's supposed to (a Hero or Hero/Monster), she can do decent. But low volume of attacks (high risk to missing, unless you can buff for rerolls) means she's not always consistent. I think a generic Keeper is better in almost every regard.
Exploding on natural 6's is a huge buff, meaning you can't debuff to cripple a large part of their offensive output.
Positioning is going to be hugely important. With a short 1" reach (from what I experienced) on a lot of their units, you can (especially for bigger units) stretch them out by attacking multiple sides and forcing that unit coherency. This can help reduce wraps and pile-ins, reducing the amount of incoming attacks. Conversely, as a Hedonite, you need to be careful you don't find yourself stretched too thin, and clumping a bit will really allow you to maximize the bodies you can get in there.
DV8 wrote: So we've gotten some Hedonist games under our belt in our group (competitive play), and here are my impressions on it:
Very finesse. I don't want to call them a glass cannon, but they're certainly fragile. They hit hard and fast (with a lot of options to force opponents to Fight Last), but if you hit them with any concerted effort, they crumple like wet paper. A large part of their survivability is tied to being able to force ASL onto their opponents.
Shalaxi is not great. When she can hit a target she's supposed to (a Hero or Hero/Monster), she can do decent. But low volume of attacks (high risk to missing, unless you can buff for rerolls) means she's not always consistent. I think a generic Keeper is better in almost every regard.
Exploding on natural 6's is a huge buff, meaning you can't debuff to cripple a large part of their offensive output.
How have you found the amount of summoning so far?
It seems like some of their heroes already make a third or more of their summon points back even if they just get killed without doing a single point of damage. Also, did you ever attempt to field more than 1 keeper of secrets so far?
Excommunicatus wrote: So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?
That's how I got started with my second AoS army. I had all the Tzeentch Daemons with my Thousand Sons, so I started playing them, and I only needed a few models and the rules to play them in AoS.
Honestly, go for it! You have a very low cost to play some AoS games, since you already have the army!
Excommunicatus wrote: So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?
Pick up a battletome and away you go!
You might even be able to use a store copy if you game at your local GW store (or your local 3rd party holds a lot of stock and has store copies). Or borrow it from a current AoS Slaanesh player - just to get a feel for how it all goes together before buying your own.
Depending on how you build your 40K army you might find you're playing at the lower point values to start with in AoS, but otherwise you shouldn't have any trouble crossing over and trying it out. I think the only unit with a base difference would be Seekers of Slaanesh if they are on the biker bases, however far as I recall the bike bases are about as long as the AoS seeker bases so its not too bad an issue.
Elmir wrote: How have you found the amount of summoning so far?
It seems like some of their heroes already make a third or more of their summon points back even if they just get killed without doing a single point of damage. Also, did you ever attempt to field more than 1 keeper of secrets so far?
I wasn't the one playing the Hedonites. I was smashing my Grand Host of Nagash into them (although they probably enjoyed it )
I definitely think you want to start with a minimum of two Keepers (not Shalaxi). Their speed and hitting power gives them significant board presence, and having multiple avenues of forcing ASL on a 2+ is really tech. You'll probably want to have a third on sidebar for summoning, MAYBE.
I also think having two Harps is going to be an (almost) requirement too. From what I saw, they're really good support pieces (buff/debuffs, ability to force reroll on spells, etc.) Likewise with the Contorted Epitome. Another source of ASL (admittedly only on a 4+) is great tech.
Insofar as summoning, I think it depends entirely on your opponent. I bring a lot of 1-wound models, so my opponent wasn't farming depravity points off me (just his own units/heroes that I was smashing). By the time he had enough to summon in the games we played, it was turn 3 ish and it had basically already been decided (but based on my experience, I also think Nagash is just a tough matchup for the Hedonites; mystic shield across the board, immune battleshock, ethereal saves on Chainrasps and Reapers, and the ability to CP summon whole units back really hurts the Hedonites, who rely on rend and volume to eliminate threats quickly before being overwhelmed).
YMMV based on opponent though; facing a Stormcast army, for example, might yield a lot more depravity points and ramp up the summoning aspect.
Stormcast with all their multiwound models are a nice target for Slaanesh - in contrast a smart skaven player with a lot of rats can be a nasty thing if they've swarm you with a load of 1 wound models. Heck Daughters of Khaine would be another tough match as, again, they've a lot of 1 wound models.
What's interesting is messing around in the army builder you can't actually "swarm" slaanesh very easily at all. Most of the heroes are hitting the 200 point or greater mark and many of the units are not cheap either. Indeed the cheapest way to build a large army is going for a strong chariot focus (which is not just somewhat expensive, but also the biggest nightmare to transport esp once you start talking about three or for exalted chariots)
Chariot wise I'm also wondering about the best way to represent heralds from regular riders and if its possible to easily model/paint them to count as either whilst being clear on the rules which one is which. I'm thinking its probably not and the chariots don't really have room to let you fit magnets without them standing out. If the latter were possible one could easily swap in and out deamonettes modelled with whips for regular and heralds with the blades.
Overread wrote: Stormcast with all their multiwound models are a nice target for Slaanesh - in contrast a smart skaven player with a lot of rats can be a nasty thing if they've swarm you with a load of 1 wound models. Heck Daughters of Khaine would be another tough match as, again, they've a lot of 1 wound models.
To be fair, Daughters of Khaine is a tough match up for everyone. They are still probably the top-dog army in AoS right now.
What's interesting is messing around in the army builder you can't actually "swarm" slaanesh very easily at all. Most of the heroes are hitting the 200 point or greater mark and many of the units are not cheap either. Indeed the cheapest way to build a large army is going for a strong chariot focus (which is not just somewhat expensive, but also the biggest nightmare to transport esp once you start talking about three or for exalted chariots)
Chariot wise I'm also wondering about the best way to represent heralds from regular riders and if its possible to easily model/paint them to count as either whilst being clear on the rules which one is which. I'm thinking its probably not and the chariots don't really have room to let you fit magnets without them standing out. If the latter were possible one could easily swap in and out deamonettes modelled with whips for regular and heralds with the blades.
To be honest, if I were to play Hedonites, chariot-heavy would be the route I'd go.
Excommunicatus wrote: So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?
Pick up a battletome and away you go!
You might even be able to use a store copy if you game at your local GW store (or your local 3rd party holds a lot of stock and has store copies). Or borrow it from a current AoS Slaanesh player - just to get a feel for how it all goes together before buying your own.
Depending on how you build your 40K army you might find you're playing at the lower point values to start with in AoS, but otherwise you shouldn't have any trouble crossing over and trying it out. I think the only unit with a base difference would be Seekers of Slaanesh if they are on the biker bases, however far as I recall the bike bases are about as long as the AoS seeker bases so its not too bad an issue.
Coolbeans, thanks. I built the majority of my Daemons from SC! boxes, so the Seekers have the 60x35mm oval bases, not biker bases.
six Heralds (three on foot, two on Steeds, one on a Seeker Chariot)
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers
five Hellflayers
Zarakynel (who I usually run as a stock KoS in 40K)
do you reckon I can put together a semi-enjoyable 'pick-up' list from that lot to try it out? I also have plans to add six Fiends, The Contorted Epitome, Syll'Esske, two Soul Grinders and the Infernal Enrapturess in the near future. Any of that good in AoS?
For friendly pick-up games, you'll definitely be able to make a solid list with what you have. The Contorted Epitome is really good as well, although I don't think Soul Grinders exist in AoS anymore.
You can play around in the warscroll builder!
Though select Chaos Demons Slaanesh rather than Hedonites because the latter also adds all the models which can take a mark of slaanesh from other allied armies, which makes them count as part of your army rather than allied models.
Chaos Demons keeps it "pure" to demons only - although oddly the chaos lord on foot and on mount are still in the builder even though they are removed (you can only get them now as allied/marked models from slaves to darkness).
Heralds on steeds are also removed (odd choice really as they are easily made). The heroes and fiends you list are all solid investments; the Infernal is the only ranged unit and a great buff unit as well as one to work with the terrain item for more depravity point generation. The others heroes are very solid choices too.
Points wise even without the additional new models you've got enough to easily make it to 2K points, Though your summoning options might be a touch limited at first.
Fiends are in an odd spot as they are now quite expensive points wise, but they are a nice solid unit and honestly a fantastic model to look at. Though when you're putting them together follow the instructions as they are a bit more fiddly (Though note the heads and arms are totally interchangeable so wap them around a bit for some variety).
Soulgrinders are still listed under creatures of chaos, which is a sort of unique chaos catch all for some of their beasties. This entry might get updated when slaves/everchosen gets updated.
Fiends are in an odd spot as they are now quite expensive points wise, but they are a nice solid unit and honestly a fantastic model to look at. Though when you're putting them together follow the instructions as they are a bit more fiddly (Though note the heads and arms are totally interchangeable so wap them around a bit for some variety).
Fiends are too expensive (points wise) for me to justify including in my initial list, but are good for a summoning side board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Soul Grinders are also still pretty tasty. And can be summoned without depravity points... though on a 10. So thats a tough roll to make but if you do! Look out.
Aye though the soul grinder summoning is the old system of summoning if I recall right so there's a good chance that will get revision. Soulgrinder actually fits into AoS better than it did in classic fantasy as its legs and machine parts are more akin to steampunk (which is sort of where AoS tech lands) than it was to old-world tech where it sort of stood out a bit.
I think they mostly update them when the Tomes that the models are in get updated.
Soul Grinder could slip through the gaps, it depends since Creatures of Chaos isn't an army but rather a pool of neutral chaos models within their line. Most assume they'll get rolled into a general Chaos Tome along with Dark Oath, Slaves and Everchosen. Which is probably about best since Dark Oath copies a lot of basic slaves themes; whilst everchosen only has two models to its name and creatures isn't a functional army.
So roll them into a general "Mortal followers of Chaos" type army deal and then use battalions and sub-armies to have any niches required within.
Its just irritating to get online to get the warscroll, think you're legit, and someone goes "nope you didn't use the eratta". Its a gotcha and is laborious to have to constantly scan faq and errata.
auticus wrote: Its just irritating to get online to get the warscroll, think you're legit, and someone goes "nope you didn't use the eratta". Its a gotcha and is laborious to have to constantly scan faq and errata.
GW has never been good at keeping their rules, erratas and FAQs organized in any meaningful way. Just take a look at the mess that is 40k.
That's good, you'll want some spare for summoning!
Also the more I think about depravity point generation the more I wonder if GW hasn't throttled it a little too well. I appreciate throttling it to avoid abuse or the appearance of abuse; however I think its added too much weight to taking leaders. When players are thinking about an army where 1/2 to 3/4 of the points is on leader/heroes rather than on troops I think that something has gone a little wrong perhaps.
I would argue that perhaps depravity should generate on wounds given (but not kills) from all units. That or assign it to some specific units, that would at least give players more reason to balance the hero-troop component of their armies and give some added benefit to taking units like fiends; or many of the allied models.
Another option would be a depravity limit per turn, however I think that would just encourage people to always hit the limit every time (otherwise you're leaving unused potential on the table to go to waste)
I respect the theme they are going for with depravity point generation, but I would not have tied it to enemy wounds count the way they did. I would have designed a trade off that gives players a choice to generate them at a cost, so that the mechanic supports both summoning and non-summoning playstyles.
As an example, letting the Slaanesh player voluntarily change a successful save roll (after modifiers) into a fail to generate them with any unit. Or give an army wide fnp against normal (not mortal) wounds that when passed can either block the damage OR generate depravity.
They don't work as well thematically but they present a more engaging gameplay mechanic, and having fun is better for forging a narrative than anything.
True, as it stands Slaanesh might well od really well against, say, Stormcast whilst against a smart Skaven player far less well due to the difference in wound distribution the enemy has.
I think we'll have to see how it fairs in the real world and how it influences the army in real playing. Hopefully GW can adjust it if need be if its found to be too good or not good enough or just not well suited.
Regardless its sure to sell loads of the new leaders models and keepers (not that GW needed to give a rules excuse to buying loads of them anyway )
I think GW has had a hard time balancing summoning to a point where it's not open to abuse or just completely OP. Nurgle and Beastmen both have summon mechanics but it's super slow or requires plague points like depravity that take a while to build up. But then you have FEC Ghoul Kings that can just CP summon free units. Legion of Nagash can resurrect slain units (without scale) for 1 CP (a unit of 5 Dogs costs the same CP as 30 Reapers or 40 Chainrasps/Skeletons). Even Seraphon can spam out droves of Skinks and Bastilidons.
The new handbook may have some impact on the ease/difficulty of summoning, and the effectiveness of summoning in Hedonites may be a mark of things to come (or not, we won't know till we have the book)
I've got two Keepers (and getting Shalaxi soon), 2 IEs, the new Prince, 3 DPs, 60 Daemonettes, 30 seekers, 5 Hellstriders (I want 15 more), 5 seeker chariots, 3 exalted, 3 hellflayers, and 8 fiends. Oh, and 2 mounted heralds (dead) and 4 foot Heralds and the Masque. I think I'm well sorted for...everything?
When gw brought back free summoning, their inability to balance anything like it is why i was very much against it. And indeed they have created several negative play experiences barring ultra competitive personalities.
So, I kinda put this thought into the forbidden power thread (since it utilizes a spell from there), but bum-rush a unit of 30 daemonettes into the nastiest target your opponent has, use a nearby Keeper to make the target ASL, then swing for 118 attacks with exploding 6s to hit and MWs from 6s to sound. That 300pt unit can vaporize anything they touch (Morathi excluded). Are daemonettes, properly buffed, the scariest of the lesser Daemons now? I’m thinking so. Their damage output is off the charts.
They come on 25mm. They were not updated at all. So it’s fine. Anyone trying to force me onto 32mm is actually trying to model for me for their advantage; check the site and all Daemonettes boxes.
When did you get them? GW website lists them as coming with 25mm (could be an old description). And the base size doc says 25mm.
So if they're freshly reboxed it might not be updated everywhere yet, because the doc still lists the Keeper of Secrets as 60mm, when the new kit comes with a 100mm. So it needs to be updated, and that may come with a base size increase.
I picked up the new box week of release. I have a bunch of older boxes of them and realized i needed 10 more so bought the new box and it had them on 32s.
It wouldn't be the first time that basing was jacked up though. I have had chaos models in the past sent with the wrong circle bases. I didn't even know plague bearers were 32s until someone on here mentioned it because my supposedly new boxes were still packing 25s.
I'd be surprised if they increased the base size and didn't do it then. However my impression is that base size does not get communicated around the GW system very well every time. We've clearly had several cases where balancing has changed a base size but never reported it to manufacture so we end up with loads of kits with "the wrong base size" in them which prompts GW to reverse the basesize change.
If GW were going to change the bases they should have done it for Wrath and Rapture or announced it by now - though the online document isn't updated yet so they could still pull a nasty surprise.
Played one game with new tome, absolutely loved it and lost only because I forgot a factor in my Depravity Points. If like fast armies so it's my bag though. very squishy in places.
I'm not going to lie, after pouring through the book cover to cover about 10 times, I'm thinking this is the best of the Chaos gods books. Not counting Skaven, since they're the babies on the block. Nothing actually seems like crap, hordes of Daemonettes are probably the most terrifying battleline unit on the table, Seekers are the fastest thing in the game, and Keepers of Secrets are absolutely brutal force-multipliers and all-around beatsticks. I don't feel like this book is middle of the road at all; with Endless Spell access, I think this book is top tier. Like Disciples of Tzeentch level when that book first came out w/ the broken Balewind/Gaunt Summoner combo. Any opponent handing first turn in hopes of a double turn is basically SOL against this book.
However, there are a tiny handful of negatives: only three different battalion options and a cleansing of mortal options. Other armies have like 8 battalions...we get 3. But our big battalion is possible in a normal game (although nearly impossible to use, it seems; 3k is better). Minimal mortals (2 units, and the two hero mortal options have been retired). However, the positives definitely outweigh the negatives, and this army is fast, has a ton of attacks (6's to hit become 2-3 hits, depending on unit size), and the best trolling heroes there are (every hero can cause ASL and Keeper can cause a unit to attack twice).
But yeah, you can do waves of infantry, a lightning fast cavalry army (before even adding endless spell shenanigans), Hero-Hammer (we do it best with Depravity Points), or even the best (only) all-chariot build in the game. Slaves to Darkness are close, but no Hero chariot options (I don't think).
The double keeper is pretty much standard in a competitive list right now (granted its still the baby days but thats what the powergamers are gravitating towards due to the depravity generation and damage output).
I'm doing a single keeper in my casual campaign list.
timetowaste85 wrote: Nothing actually seems like crap, hordes of Daemonettes are probably the most terrifying battleline unit on the table, Seekers are the fastest thing in the game, and Keepers of Secrets are absolutely brutal force-multipliers and all-around beatsticks.
Daemonettes are certainly not the most terrifying battleline unit in the game, though. Fyreslayers and their Hearthguard Berserkers (Hemdar) IMO take the cake (although the army suffers from having to death-ball in one spot and lacks good board coverage, so it suffers in missions requiring it to spread out (or like Places of Arcane Power, requiring Artefacts and/or Wizards).
I don't feel like this book is middle of the road at all; with Endless Spell access, I think this book is top tier. Like Disciples of Tzeentch level when that book first came out w/ the broken Balewind/Gaunt Summoner combo. Any opponent handing first turn in hopes of a double turn is basically SOL against this book.
Meh I think it's a solid book, maybe 1.5 Tier or just below it. It's no DoK/LoN/FEC/Skaven though.
I think plague monks take the cake for most OP battleline(ish) unit, and among the most OP in the game overall. But max size daemonette units, like their bloodletter and plaguebearer buddies, are above the power curve thanks to max size discounts they don't deserve.
Keepers are one of those models made overpowered by allegiance rather than their point cost being inherently too low. Unfortunately it means they will probably need to go up, but then grand alliance chaos is only for running the everchosen battalions anyways in terms of serious lists.
So after getting a game with them yesterday, holy crap, Slaanesh is STUPID-good!! I wrote up a battle report here, but hot damn, I ended up with almost 90 depravity points on my third turn!! I summoned a KoS and a regular chariot on turn 2, an exalted chariot, Daemonettes and two MORE chariots turn 3!
Opponents: don’t EVER let Slaanesh cast Cogs. It’s an auto take for us, and you need to avoid it at all cost. Also, despite the chances of a double turn, don’t give us turn one; we CAN and WILL charge you from jump.
Honestly, I didn’t run an optimized list (although I will always take two Keepers because they’re the reason I started Chaos in the first place), and I still summoned like a fiend. And if an army doesn’t have a way to get ASF, they will get crippled by ASL. This just...wow. I could tell the book was great on paper, but in practice...just wow. This is the Slaanesh army I’ve been waiting for. And the wait was worth it.
I’m about to start driving, so I’m just going to mention that I wrote up a battle report, that should explain it. I was amazed at how many points I was able to generate. Both of us were.
And opponent had Fyreslayers.
I’m actually looking forward to fighting FEC. I got a taste for dismembering dwarves, now it’s time to give a proctology exam to some Bretonnia-wannabees. Idk if my other Chaos armies will ever even come off the shelf at this point.
Looks like a lot of the analysis people are rating HoS quite high after very solid performance since the book came out:
Seems like they hard counter FEC pretty hard (as the FB group is pretty much still scratching their heads about how to counter it).
Also, looks like one person in particular played against Slaanesh and had to undergo 7 CC combat activations before he could even pick a unit to fight with. So it's not just crazy amounts of summoning. A lot of Greater daemons will put your army in ASL so hard, that the entire army waltzes over you before you even get to strike sometimes.
As a Hedonite player, I can confirm the ASL ability is more bonkers than depravity. It’s not Ward-levels of broken 7th Ed Daemon shenanigans...but I have the Slaanesh and the Skaven book, and I feel more comfortable with winning the war on paper with my HoS than Skaven.
They are definitely a high B list. The strongest of the chaos lists, skaven not withstanding.
In the powergamer arena they will be difficult to steer to overall victory if they encounter any of the big-three, but from a casual player standpoint they will be providing plenty of negative play experiences to those not powerlisting.
GHB 2019 not withstanding.
Caveat: a great player using this force against a not-so-great player powerlisting with the big-three would be an even matchup and a good game.
IMO, it's the keepers. Without them Slaanesh is pretty well balanced barring multi-wound opponents. I think they will also become a little bit less summony as people realize it is only wounds caused by attacks and spells from the heroes that generate depravity (taking damage is from any source, dealing it is not) so wounds caused by chariot charges/blending, dark temptations, etc do not generate depravity.
timetowaste85 wrote: As a Hedonite player, I can confirm the ASL ability is more bonkers than depravity. It’s not Ward-levels of broken 7th Ed Daemon shenanigans...but I have the Slaanesh and the Skaven book, and I feel more comfortable with winning the war on paper with my HoS than Skaven.
Oh wow, that's... Saying something I suppose.
I've got zero experience personally playing Hedonites (they aren't a big thing in our local meta yet), but I could see my FEC (being quite glass cannon, but an extremely potent cannon in terms of damage output) being put to shame if they are forced in an ASL situation. It's almost a hard counter.
That being said: I don't think it's good game design to have one faction (FEC) being able to blast through most melee armies, but getting mauled by an army that forces you into an almost ASL across the line.
I knew about the “limits” on depravity. Endless spells also don’t generate DP. I got that many points with just my heroes causing wounds in CC (and the IEs shooting which are also attacks). But one spells causing DPs, two IEs with their ability and their shooting, the Keepers attacks, and somebody like Syll’Eske? You get points fast. I forgot to get myself about 2D6 worth of points too. Both abilities are insane. And yeah, Keepers are the bomb. Best GDs without any debate. To say otherwise is definitely madness.
timetowaste85 wrote: I knew about the “limits” on depravity. Endless spells also don’t generate DP. I got that many points with just my heroes causing wounds in CC (and the IEs shooting which are also attacks). But one spells causing DPs, two IEs with their ability and their shooting, the Keepers attacks, and somebody like Syll’Eske? You get points fast. I forgot to get myself about 2D6 worth of points too. Both abilities are insane. And yeah, Keepers are the bomb. Best GDs without any debate. To say otherwise is definitely madness.
Apologies, I did not mean to imply that I was responding to your specifically. Pretty sure going against Fyreslayers is about the best situation for depravity generation you can get short of Bonesplittaz.
I think it is a matter of tactical play that (no offense to FEC players) they haven't particularly needed before. Against Slaanesh FEC really need to consider where when and how they engage, unlike many other armies where they just point and click.
And I’ll add that I don’t think Slaanesh will be point and click either. And you can’t go all heroes because of you run into hordes of chaff, you’re in trouble. You NEED those blocks of Daemonettes or Marauders or 20 Seekers. Even if it’s just one block for competitive builds. I think dual-Keepers are a must. I’m also thinking adding Kairos Fateweaver as an ally when running Shalaxi could be downright rotten. When you need that all-important 6...you got it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think it is a matter of tactical play that (no offense to FEC players) they haven't particularly needed before. Against Slaanesh FEC really need to consider where when and how they engage, unlike many other armies where they just point and click.
What would you call tactical engagement then? Anywhere that's not within 6" KoS and anything with a regular hero nearby is also kind of risky...
Because I'm just seeing a model that forces a 2+ ASL before every fight phase (my NH at least have to get an 18" range, counterable spell off to do something similar), while hitting quite hard and even if it somehow is killed without doing anything, it'll generate 1/3 of it's cost back in summoning points.... for 360p. That's kind of bonkers.
Thats why for my for fun narrative list i only run one keeper.
So, I kept being gifted random KoSs (older models). I bought one back in fantasy 6th and have like three extras (one is unusable parts now). Plus I have a converted one that needs its legs finished to be the size of the new one. And I have one new one and Shalaxi. The insane thing is that I can actually have the three big ones on the field and reliably expect to summon the other three smaller ones in a regular game. That’s bonkers. The only reason I didn’t have more in my game was that I didn’t bring enough with me (plus I wanted to try out Chariots as it was my first game with HoS).
I own the new one, the forgeworld one, and a creature caster one, plus i can use the wet nurse from kingdom death as one. However for casual fun games I'm not fielding more than one unless my opponent starts bringing the adepticon lists.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think it is a matter of tactical play that (no offense to FEC players) they haven't particularly needed before. Against Slaanesh FEC really need to consider where when and how they engage, unlike many other armies where they just point and click.
What would you call tactical engagement then? Anywhere that's not within 6" KoS and anything with a regular hero nearby is also kind of risky...
Because I'm just seeing a model that forces a 2+ ASL before every fight phase (my NH at least have to get an 18" range, counterable spell off to do something similar), while hitting quite hard and even if it somehow is killed without doing anything, it'll generate 1/3 of it's cost back in summoning points.... for 360p. That's kind of bonkers.
It's really difficult to say because it depends on what the board looks like and where the models are. But I am not at all suggesting that the KoS isn't OP.
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