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So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?

 DV8 wrote:
So we've gotten some Hedonist games under our belt in our group (competitive play), and here are my impressions on it:

Very finesse. I don't want to call them a glass cannon, but they're certainly fragile. They hit hard and fast (with a lot of options to force opponents to Fight Last), but if you hit them with any concerted effort, they crumple like wet paper. A large part of their survivability is tied to being able to force ASL onto their opponents.

Shalaxi is not great. When she can hit a target she's supposed to (a Hero or Hero/Monster), she can do decent. But low volume of attacks (high risk to missing, unless you can buff for rerolls) means she's not always consistent. I think a generic Keeper is better in almost every regard.

Exploding on natural 6's is a huge buff, meaning you can't debuff to cripple a large part of their offensive output.

How have you found the amount of summoning so far?

It seems like some of their heroes already make a third or more of their summon points back even if they just get killed without doing a single point of damage. Also, did you ever attempt to field more than 1 keeper of secrets so far?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?

That's how I got started with my second AoS army. I had all the Tzeentch Daemons with my Thousand Sons, so I started playing them, and I only needed a few models and the rules to play them in AoS.

Honestly, go for it! You have a very low cost to play some AoS games, since you already have the army!

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?

Pick up a battletome and away you go!
You might even be able to use a store copy if you game at your local GW store (or your local 3rd party holds a lot of stock and has store copies). Or borrow it from a current AoS Slaanesh player - just to get a feel for how it all goes together before buying your own.

Depending on how you build your 40K army you might find you're playing at the lower point values to start with in AoS, but otherwise you shouldn't have any trouble crossing over and trying it out. I think the only unit with a base difference would be Seekers of Slaanesh if they are on the biker bases, however far as I recall the bike bases are about as long as the AoS seeker bases so its not too bad an issue.

 Elmir wrote:
How have you found the amount of summoning so far?

It seems like some of their heroes already make a third or more of their summon points back even if they just get killed without doing a single point of damage. Also, did you ever attempt to field more than 1 keeper of secrets so far?

I wasn't the one playing the Hedonites. I was smashing my Grand Host of Nagash into them (although they probably enjoyed it )

I definitely think you want to start with a minimum of two Keepers (not Shalaxi). Their speed and hitting power gives them significant board presence, and having multiple avenues of forcing ASL on a 2+ is really tech. You'll probably want to have a third on sidebar for summoning, MAYBE.

I also think having two Harps is going to be an (almost) requirement too. From what I saw, they're really good support pieces (buff/debuffs, ability to force reroll on spells, etc.) Likewise with the Contorted Epitome. Another source of ASL (admittedly only on a 4+) is great tech.

Insofar as summoning, I think it depends entirely on your opponent. I bring a lot of 1-wound models, so my opponent wasn't farming depravity points off me (just his own units/heroes that I was smashing). By the time he had enough to summon in the games we played, it was turn 3 ish and it had basically already been decided (but based on my experience, I also think Nagash is just a tough matchup for the Hedonites; mystic shield across the board, immune battleshock, ethereal saves on Chainrasps and Reapers, and the ability to CP summon whole units back really hurts the Hedonites, who rely on rend and volume to eliminate threats quickly before being overwhelmed).

YMMV based on opponent though; facing a Stormcast army, for example, might yield a lot more depravity points and ramp up the summoning aspect.

Stormcast with all their multiwound models are a nice target for Slaanesh - in contrast a smart skaven player with a lot of rats can be a nasty thing if they've swarm you with a load of 1 wound models. Heck Daughters of Khaine would be another tough match as, again, they've a lot of 1 wound models.



What's interesting is messing around in the army builder you can't actually "swarm" slaanesh very easily at all. Most of the heroes are hitting the 200 point or greater mark and many of the units are not cheap either. Indeed the cheapest way to build a large army is going for a strong chariot focus (which is not just somewhat expensive, but also the biggest nightmare to transport esp once you start talking about three or for exalted chariots)


Chariot wise I'm also wondering about the best way to represent heralds from regular riders and if its possible to easily model/paint them to count as either whilst being clear on the rules which one is which. I'm thinking its probably not and the chariots don't really have room to let you fit magnets without them standing out. If the latter were possible one could easily swap in and out deamonettes modelled with whips for regular and heralds with the blades.

 Overread wrote:
Stormcast with all their multiwound models are a nice target for Slaanesh - in contrast a smart skaven player with a lot of rats can be a nasty thing if they've swarm you with a load of 1 wound models. Heck Daughters of Khaine would be another tough match as, again, they've a lot of 1 wound models.

To be fair, Daughters of Khaine is a tough match up for everyone. They are still probably the top-dog army in AoS right now.

What's interesting is messing around in the army builder you can't actually "swarm" slaanesh very easily at all. Most of the heroes are hitting the 200 point or greater mark and many of the units are not cheap either. Indeed the cheapest way to build a large army is going for a strong chariot focus (which is not just somewhat expensive, but also the biggest nightmare to transport esp once you start talking about three or for exalted chariots)

Chariot wise I'm also wondering about the best way to represent heralds from regular riders and if its possible to easily model/paint them to count as either whilst being clear on the rules which one is which. I'm thinking its probably not and the chariots don't really have room to let you fit magnets without them standing out. If the latter were possible one could easily swap in and out deamonettes modelled with whips for regular and heralds with the blades.

To be honest, if I were to play Hedonites, chariot-heavy would be the route I'd go.

 Overread wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So would now be a good time for a 40K Slaanesh player to try out AoS?

Pick up a battletome and away you go!
You might even be able to use a store copy if you game at your local GW store (or your local 3rd party holds a lot of stock and has store copies). Or borrow it from a current AoS Slaanesh player - just to get a feel for how it all goes together before buying your own.

Depending on how you build your 40K army you might find you're playing at the lower point values to start with in AoS, but otherwise you shouldn't have any trouble crossing over and trying it out. I think the only unit with a base difference would be Seekers of Slaanesh if they are on the biker bases, however far as I recall the bike bases are about as long as the AoS seeker bases so its not too bad an issue.

Coolbeans, thanks. I built the majority of my Daemons from SC! boxes, so the Seekers have the 60x35mm oval bases, not biker bases.

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So I have

six Heralds (three on foot, two on Steeds, one on a Seeker Chariot)
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers
five Hellflayers
Zarakynel (who I usually run as a stock KoS in 40K)

do you reckon I can put together a semi-enjoyable 'pick-up' list from that lot to try it out? I also have plans to add six Fiends, The Contorted Epitome, Syll'Esske, two Soul Grinders and the Infernal Enrapturess in the near future. Any of that good in AoS?

For friendly pick-up games, you'll definitely be able to make a solid list with what you have. The Contorted Epitome is really good as well, although I don't think Soul Grinders exist in AoS anymore.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

You can play around in the warscroll builder!
Though select Chaos Demons Slaanesh rather than Hedonites because the latter also adds all the models which can take a mark of slaanesh from other allied armies, which makes them count as part of your army rather than allied models.

Chaos Demons keeps it "pure" to demons only - although oddly the chaos lord on foot and on mount are still in the builder even though they are removed (you can only get them now as allied/marked models from slaves to darkness).


Heralds on steeds are also removed (odd choice really as they are easily made). The heroes and fiends you list are all solid investments; the Infernal is the only ranged unit and a great buff unit as well as one to work with the terrain item for more depravity point generation. The others heroes are very solid choices too.

Points wise even without the additional new models you've got enough to easily make it to 2K points, Though your summoning options might be a touch limited at first.


Fiends are in an odd spot as they are now quite expensive points wise, but they are a nice solid unit and honestly a fantastic model to look at. Though when you're putting them together follow the instructions as they are a bit more fiddly (Though note the heads and arms are totally interchangeable so wap them around a bit for some variety).



Soulgrinders are still listed under creatures of chaos, which is a sort of unique chaos catch all for some of their beasties. This entry might get updated when slaves/everchosen gets updated.

Fiends are in an odd spot as they are now quite expensive points wise, but they are a nice solid unit and honestly a fantastic model to look at. Though when you're putting them together follow the instructions as they are a bit more fiddly (Though note the heads and arms are totally interchangeable so wap them around a bit for some variety).

Fiends are too expensive (points wise) for me to justify including in my initial list, but are good for a summoning side board.


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Soul Grinders are also still pretty tasty. And can be summoned without depravity points... though on a 10. So thats a tough roll to make but if you do! Look out.

Aye though the soul grinder summoning is the old system of summoning if I recall right so there's a good chance that will get revision. Soulgrinder actually fits into AoS better than it did in classic fantasy as its legs and machine parts are more akin to steampunk (which is sort of where AoS tech lands) than it was to old-world tech where it sort of stood out a bit.

The summon spells for generic daemons were removed; it is in the grand alliance chaos errata.

Those jokers need to update their damn warscrolls online then.

I think they mostly update them when the Tomes that the models are in get updated.

Soul Grinder could slip through the gaps, it depends since Creatures of Chaos isn't an army but rather a pool of neutral chaos models within their line. Most assume they'll get rolled into a general Chaos Tome along with Dark Oath, Slaves and Everchosen. Which is probably about best since Dark Oath copies a lot of basic slaves themes; whilst everchosen only has two models to its name and creatures isn't a functional army.

So roll them into a general "Mortal followers of Chaos" type army deal and then use battalions and sub-armies to have any niches required within.

Its just irritating to get online to get the warscroll, think you're legit, and someone goes "nope you didn't use the eratta". Its a gotcha and is laborious to have to constantly scan faq and errata.

We both know Tzeentch would be dropping down a free Soul Grinder every turn anyways.

auticus wrote:
Its just irritating to get online to get the warscroll, think you're legit, and someone goes "nope you didn't use the eratta". Its a gotcha and is laborious to have to constantly scan faq and errata.

GW has never been good at keeping their rules, erratas and FAQs organized in any meaningful way. Just take a look at the mess that is 40k.

 Overread wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

Thanks again, that's crazy useful.

I accidentally built a 2,800pt AoS army, apparently.

That's good, you'll want some spare for summoning!


Also the more I think about depravity point generation the more I wonder if GW hasn't throttled it a little too well. I appreciate throttling it to avoid abuse or the appearance of abuse; however I think its added too much weight to taking leaders. When players are thinking about an army where 1/2 to 3/4 of the points is on leader/heroes rather than on troops I think that something has gone a little wrong perhaps.

I would argue that perhaps depravity should generate on wounds given (but not kills) from all units. That or assign it to some specific units, that would at least give players more reason to balance the hero-troop component of their armies and give some added benefit to taking units like fiends; or many of the allied models.



Another option would be a depravity limit per turn, however I think that would just encourage people to always hit the limit every time (otherwise you're leaving unused potential on the table to go to waste)

I respect the theme they are going for with depravity point generation, but I would not have tied it to enemy wounds count the way they did. I would have designed a trade off that gives players a choice to generate them at a cost, so that the mechanic supports both summoning and non-summoning playstyles.

As an example, letting the Slaanesh player voluntarily change a successful save roll (after modifiers) into a fail to generate them with any unit. Or give an army wide fnp against normal (not mortal) wounds that when passed can either block the damage OR generate depravity.

They don't work as well thematically but they present a more engaging gameplay mechanic, and having fun is better for forging a narrative than anything.

True, as it stands Slaanesh might well od really well against, say, Stormcast whilst against a smart Skaven player far less well due to the difference in wound distribution the enemy has.

I think we'll have to see how it fairs in the real world and how it influences the army in real playing. Hopefully GW can adjust it if need be if its found to be too good or not good enough or just not well suited.


Regardless its sure to sell loads of the new leaders models and keepers (not that GW needed to give a rules excuse to buying loads of them anyway )

I think GW has had a hard time balancing summoning to a point where it's not open to abuse or just completely OP. Nurgle and Beastmen both have summon mechanics but it's super slow or requires plague points like depravity that take a while to build up. But then you have FEC Ghoul Kings that can just CP summon free units. Legion of Nagash can resurrect slain units (without scale) for 1 CP (a unit of 5 Dogs costs the same CP as 30 Reapers or 40 Chainrasps/Skeletons). Even Seraphon can spam out droves of Skinks and Bastilidons.

The new handbook may have some impact on the ease/difficulty of summoning, and the effectiveness of summoning in Hedonites may be a mark of things to come (or not, we won't know till we have the book)

I've got two Keepers (and getting Shalaxi soon), 2 IEs, the new Prince, 3 DPs, 60 Daemonettes, 30 seekers, 5 Hellstriders (I want 15 more), 5 seeker chariots, 3 exalted, 3 hellflayers, and 8 fiends. Oh, and 2 mounted heralds (dead) and 4 foot Heralds and the Masque. I think I'm well sorted for...everything?

When gw brought back free summoning, their inability to balance anything like it is why i was very much against it. And indeed they have created several negative play experiences barring ultra competitive personalities.

My Ogre Army is suffering agaisnt our Slaanesh player... alas. That was to be expected without a battletome.

But at least they don't felt as oppresive to play agaisnt like FEC, Skaven or those stupid Stormcast Ballistas.

 Overread wrote:
True, as it stands Slaanesh might well od really well against, say, Stormcast whilst against a smart Skaven player far less well

Lol you think Skaven need intelligence to win with

I kid, of course.

So, I kinda put this thought into the forbidden power thread (since it utilizes a spell from there), but bum-rush a unit of 30 daemonettes into the nastiest target your opponent has, use a nearby Keeper to make the target ASL, then swing for 118 attacks with exploding 6s to hit and MWs from 6s to sound. That 300pt unit can vaporize anything they touch (Morathi excluded). Are daemonettes, properly buffed, the scariest of the lesser Daemons now? I’m thinking so. Their damage output is off the charts.

I think thirty 32mm based slaaneshi demonettes are going to have a hard time doing the bridge BS.

And putting them on 25mm is going to get people to scream basing for advantage (and many events will force them on 32s anyway)

Additionally they die to a stiff breeze so if you don't go first, that murder unit will be paste so there is at least that trade off.

They come on 25mm. They were not updated at all. So it’s fine. Anyone trying to force me onto 32mm is actually trying to model for me for their advantage; check the site and all Daemonettes boxes.