Next week I am going into a game with the new Vanguard Primaris models that were recently released and was wondering what peoples thoughts on them were. I have used the Suppressors and Eliminators in a single game so far and found them underwhelming though it could be that I was using them incorrectly.

If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

In short, to expensive for what they do.

I like the look of the infiltrator models.
Based on that alone I'll eventually get around to picking up a squad of them just because.

Beyond that I haven't really paid them any attention as they don't fit in any of the armies I'm currently playing (AdMech, 100% SM dreadnaughts, & SW - that use only 2e era models).

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

 KingGarland wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

didnt say DS, they can still come in on T2 tho.

I just use infiltrators as intercessors for my crimson fists at the moment as I love the models, not actually used any of the rules yet as I run my marines as Deathwatch

I think the Infiltrators should be the same cost as Intercessors to be worth fielding. I think their weapons are basically even with and their special abilities are so situational as to not be worth extra points to me. Conversely, if I could choose to take Infiltrators at the same price as Intercessors without a lot of their special abilities I would. The Helix Adept seems entirely too expensive to Necron the squad he is embedded with. Doubly so given the failure chance and lost of Shooting with said failure.

I think the Eliminators are a good price, but have limited utility in standard matched play games. As a side and it could be my personal opinion, but I also think they would most usable if they could be taken individually or in teams of two.

The Suppressors seem pretty good. A little tough to use sometimes, but good especially as Fast Attack and as cheap as they are. I would have expected them to be the price of Infiltrators.

The Captain in Phobos Armor seems like a Primaris Captain HQ choice. Maybe a little too expensive given their are better choices. I could see running him for fluff reasons and him not holding back the army though.

The Librarian in Phobos Armor seems pretty good if your are running a Phobos heavy army. Probably the best HQ choice of the three offered in the box for space marines.

The Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, like the Captain, doesn't seem like anything particularly special and also seems a little overly expensive.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

didnt say DS, they can still come in on T2 tho.

How are you getting them in T2? They are set up like scouts during deployment.

The captain and Lt suffer from having no worthwhile melee weapon (seriously GW, WTF?), but the Lt with Target Priority WT is great with Hellblasters or plasma inceptors. I can't really see a use for the Captain.
Infiltrators are too expensive, eliminators don't have enough shots, and the suppressors suffer from a crisis of identity.

While I like the models, GW didn't do Space Marine players any favours with this release.

They seem a bit overpriced for what you get, but seem to be able to do their roles pretty good. So effective, not efficient.

Options on the HQs kinda blow. Would it hurt to give them at least a basic power sword?

The captain has a role of backfield camp support. He sits back in cover (bonus save) plinking with his rifle (better then nothing) and keeping things from DSing close to his charges (12” denial). But he’s there for the re-rolls to hit primarily.

 bullyboy wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

didnt say DS, they can still come in on T2 tho.

How are you getting them in T2? They are set up like scouts during deployment.

The captain and Lt suffer from having no worthwhile melee weapon (seriously GW, WTF?), but the Lt with Target Priority WT is great with Hellblasters or plasma inceptors. I can't really see a use for the Captain.
Infiltrators are too expensive, eliminators don't have enough shots, and the suppressors suffer from a crisis of identity.

While I like the models, GW didn't do Space Marine players any favours with this release.

so stuff cannot be set up as reserves anymore?

Racerguy180 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

didnt say DS, they can still come in on T2 tho.

How are you getting them in T2? They are set up like scouts during deployment.

The captain and Lt suffer from having no worthwhile melee weapon (seriously GW, WTF?), but the Lt with Target Priority WT is great with Hellblasters or plasma inceptors. I can't really see a use for the Captain.
Infiltrators are too expensive, eliminators don't have enough shots, and the suppressors suffer from a crisis of identity.

While I like the models, GW didn't do Space Marine players any favours with this release.

so stuff cannot be set up as reserves anymore?

No, that's not a thing in 8e. Unless the unit has an ability like that on their datasheet.

They're overall not particularly great. However, the HQ options are pretty decent:

The Vanguard Libby can learn Null Zone via a relic, which is a neat trick you can puill off.

The Vanguard Captain can use the Warlord trait for +1 to hit, which is really strong on giant squads of Hellblasters.

I haven't had a whole lot of success with Eliminators, I'd just take a Vindicare via Operative Requisition Sanctioned. I haven't been impressed by suppressors, but there's potential there for pairing them with Infiltrators to get T1 charges against things like the aforementiioned giant squads of Hellblasters.

I'd definitely use Infiltrators as forward skirmishers, relying on their higher resilience per point than scouts to engage the enemy in close quarters to be disruptive.


As far as models go, I love them, though

Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

 p5freak wrote:
Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

They profit quite alot in a city fights scenario from flight.

Probably as a fast relocating unit of Havocs sans the ignore -1 to hit penalty but with fly and 10" m range.

I like the look and feel, but they are overpriced for what they do.

Does anyone else thing the Vanguard models are out of proportion to the other Primaris?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Does anyone else thing the Vanguard models are out of proportion to the other Primaris?

No, they look fine scale wise.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Does anyone else thing the Vanguard models are out of proportion to the other Primaris?

The kneeling snipers are out of scale

I find the Infiltrators work better than people would expect.

I play all primaris (cause I can see where GW is going) and so I find the Suppressors and Eliminators very good additions also.

But the real winner has to be the Librarian.

Works great as Raven Guard when paired with Shrike and some Vanguard Veterans.

Suppressors lock down units from firing Overwatch, Shrikewing takes everything that can be meleed down.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Does anyone else thing the Vanguard models are out of proportion to the other Primaris?

The kneeling Eliminators are definitely out of scale with other primaris. They must have got the sizing wrong on them at some point when the molds were being created. Put one next to the Eliminator sergeant or a regular intercessor to see what i mean. If they were to stand up straight its pretty obvious they would be significantly taller.

 bullyboy wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you want competitive I cant help you, but for everything short of tourney minmax they work well to supplement other Primaris units.

The infiltrators are best used as a disruption type unit. deploy them last(not DS) and use the 12" bubble to best effect. then bring in Suppressors & elims on T2 to support Infils in attacking whatever you send them after.

I am pretty sure that the Infiltrators and Eliminators can't deep strike. They can do the thing were they can deploy up to 9 inchs from the enemy deployment zone.

didnt say DS, they can still come in on T2 tho.

How are you getting them in T2? They are set up like scouts during deployment.

The captain and Lt suffer from having no worthwhile melee weapon (seriously GW, WTF?), but the Lt with Target Priority WT is great with Hellblasters or plasma inceptors. I can't really see a use for the Captain.
Infiltrators are too expensive, eliminators don't have enough shots, and the suppressors suffer from a crisis of identity.

While I like the models, GW didn't do Space Marine players any favours with this release.

Target Priority can go on any warlord with the Phobos keyword, so it needs to be considered independent of the character it's on. Personally I think the Captain is less over-priced than the Lieutenant (he's not paying for DS and the meaningless Combat Knife) and he's harder to kill, although it is putting all the accuracy buff eggs into one basket.

I don't see why anyone woulf diss the Suppressors. Marines have needed Autocannons for a while, getting them with AP 2 (which is very on-meta) on a platform that can leave melee and shoot without penalty (beyond the normal -1 for move-and-shoot) and is fast enough to evade melee units is really good. They might just be the best thing Marines got in the whole box.

(Oh, and they're Spd 12", not 10". Donno if anyone else pointed that out yet.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[Edit]
Don't mind me, for some stupid reason I thought Suppressors inflicted a -1 to hit on the target unit instead of "may not overwatch".

Autocannons have a 48" range, meaning the Suppressors will often be outside of 12", giving a -1 to hit them. Also, if the suppressors eliminate a model from a unit, that unit cannot fire Overwatch.

Downside to putting Target Priority on your Captain is that he can't shoot to use the trait, which is not great since his gun is reasonable.

The Newman wrote:

I don't see why anyone woulf diss the Suppressors. Marines have needed Autocannons for a while, getting them with AP 2 (which is very on-meta) on a platform that can leave melee and shoot without penalty (beyond the normal -1 for move-and-shoot) and is fast enough to evade melee units is really good. They might just be the best thing Marines got in the whole box.

Just dont play them as ultramarines, because you get -2 to hit when you leave CC. Its -1 for shooting and moving a heavy weapon, and -1 for ultramarines chapter tactic. Note that other SM chapters dont get that -1 to hit when they fall back from CC. For some weird reason ultramarines like to be punished by their own chapter tactic.

 p5freak wrote:

The Newman wrote:

I don't see why anyone woulf diss the Suppressors. Marines have needed Autocannons for a while, getting them with AP 2 (which is very on-meta) on a platform that can leave melee and shoot without penalty (beyond the normal -1 for move-and-shoot) and is fast enough to evade melee units is really good. They might just be the best thing Marines got in the whole box.

Just dont play them as ultramarines, because you get -2 to hit when you leave CC. Its -1 for shooting and moving a heavy weapon, and -1 for ultramarines chapter tactic. Note that other SM chapters dont get that -1 to hit when they fall back from CC. For some weird reason ultramarines like to be punished by their own chapter tactic.

To be fair I think most people wouldn't play it that way as a matter of being friendly. It's rather silly that someone would insist that your chapter tactic makes your flying units worse.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

The Newman wrote:

I don't see why anyone woulf diss the Suppressors. Marines have needed Autocannons for a while, getting them with AP 2 (which is very on-meta) on a platform that can leave melee and shoot without penalty (beyond the normal -1 for move-and-shoot) and is fast enough to evade melee units is really good. They might just be the best thing Marines got in the whole box.

Just dont play them as ultramarines, because you get -2 to hit when you leave CC. Its -1 for shooting and moving a heavy weapon, and -1 for ultramarines chapter tactic. Note that other SM chapters dont get that -1 to hit when they fall back from CC. For some weird reason ultramarines like to be punished by their own chapter tactic.

To be fair I think most people wouldn't play it that way as a matter of being friendly. It's rather silly that someone would insist that your chapter tactic makes your flying units worse.

Thats what the rules says. I agree that its silly, but it hasnt been changed by GW since 8th edition started, so i guess it must be intended.

 p5freak wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

The Newman wrote:

I don't see why anyone woulf diss the Suppressors. Marines have needed Autocannons for a while, getting them with AP 2 (which is very on-meta) on a platform that can leave melee and shoot without penalty (beyond the normal -1 for move-and-shoot) and is fast enough to evade melee units is really good. They might just be the best thing Marines got in the whole box.

Just dont play them as ultramarines, because you get -2 to hit when you leave CC. Its -1 for shooting and moving a heavy weapon, and -1 for ultramarines chapter tactic. Note that other SM chapters dont get that -1 to hit when they fall back from CC. For some weird reason ultramarines like to be punished by their own chapter tactic.

To be fair I think most people wouldn't play it that way as a matter of being friendly. It's rather silly that someone would insist that your chapter tactic makes your flying units worse.

Thats what the rules says. I agree that its silly, but it hasnt been changed by GW since 8th edition started, so i guess it must be intended.

They've also never fixed assault weapons so I guess it must be intended.

Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

Sometimes I find it amazing that any two people manage to agree on what the rules of this game are for long enough to actually play a match.

More related to the actual topic, on reflection having Target Priority on a Leiutenant and a normal / Primaris Captain is more points efficient by enough to justify it, even if a Captain taking ordes from a Lieutenant feels weird.

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I move them all the time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

You'd pack up if someone tried to make you play the ways appear to be written (note - I don't have both sets of material to hand)?

If you think it is an error or oversight, email their FAQ address, and see if it gets picked up next time around.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

Yikes, YMDC has overflowed...

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like. Even better, email it to GW If it affects you and see if it gets FAQd for the pedantic.

(And p5freak, pleeeeease don’t be the second guy trying to use GW’s email auto response as a rules source... it’s not from the rules team or part of the rules so just nope. It’s general tide you over advice for completing a game without disputes, not rules or prof of RAW or intent. It’s silly when that other guy cites it... don’t be like that!)

 p5freak wrote:
In short, to expensive for what they do.

Not fluffy enough in my BA army.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I never thought I would see the day where someone whined about Darkstrider...

So you're upset about the -1 penalty which is army-wide on a faction that doesn't always get to do the retreat+act normally thing versus a single, unique character who locks you into the T'au Sept(not a bad thing mind!) and brings nothing beyond this utility and his Structural Analyzer?

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

and your source for this is?

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

Is it your opinion that this rule was intended to make ultramarines fly units worse than non ultramarines? It's pretty clear to anyone it is not intended. GW just doesn't have the common sense to write a rule properly. Not to mention - this is basically the beta codex for 40k. It has lots of mistakes.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

Rules are not rules. Rules are what the to says they are. GWs wishes are actually largely irrelevant because ambiguity.

Their advice is meaningless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I never thought I would see the day where someone whined about Darkstrider...

So you're upset about the -1 penalty which is army-wide on a faction that doesn't always get to do the retreat+act normally thing versus a single, unique character who locks you into the T'au Sept(not a bad thing mind!) and brings nothing beyond this utility and his Structural Analyzer?

I'm not complaining about dark strider he isn't even as good as a fireblade IMO. I never use him. Because the ability to fall back and shoot is really not that great because it is massively situational. It's even more situational on Ultramarines where you have to chose to hit on 4's over 3's in CC. It's only use comes into play when people are trying to tie up additional units. I can fool them into not doing it by telling them I can just fall back and shoot. Almost every situation they would be better of doing it anyways.

The -1 makes the trait worthless.

BrianDavion wrote:
and your source for this is?

Specific overrides general. Thats the nature of the rules. You cant charge after advancing (general). Stratagem (specific) allows you to charge after advancing. Legion trait (specific) allows you to charge after advancing.

Xenomancers wrote:
Is it your opinion that this rule was intended to make ultramarines fly units worse than non ultramarines?

My opinion is that tsons (the best psyker faction) shouldnt be able to spam smite without penalty, but they can. But, my opinion doesnt matter. GW makes the game, they make the rules. If they decide to nerf ultramarines its their choice.

Martel732 wrote:
Rules are not rules. Rules are what the to says they are. GWs wishes are actually largely irrelevant because ambiguity.

Their advice is meaningless.

Thanks for the advice, next time i will ask the TO at my FLGS when i play a casual game.

For a casual game, might as well 4+ it

Space Wolves love them, most other armies are kind of indifferent to them.
The Infiltrators are great for the Space Wolves who are happy to be in melee but otherwise have no access to Concealed Positions, any other marine army simply would not use them that way or would use Scouts instead.
When Suppressors have a flexible unit size they'll be great for any assault army. Being locked to three is just a wonky number, too many to be a minimal harassment unit and not enough to divvy up shots into multiple units expecting to kill a single model or threaten anything bigger than a Land Speeder outright - when the unit has access to a 2 model minimum or four models in one unit they'll be great fun.
Phobos Rune Priest with Master of Vanguard Warlord trait works great with Wulfen dropping their 9' charge to an 8' charge from deepstrike although I do wonder if a Phobos Lieutenant isn't a better option, when it's only a twenty point difference it's hard to decide between being cheaper and throwing tempestas psychic powers around to add to the Wulfen's arrival. The Blood Angels might see some benefit from a Phobos Lieutenant with Master of the Vanguard, I'm not sure they'd care much for the Phobos Libby though.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

Edit: As for the actual units...

The Captain is a Sniper Scout Captain. He's the 10th company captain people have wanted for years, now that they're theoretically replacing all 10 companies with Primaris.
The LT is nice because he can deep strike - so can the non-Primaris with a Jump Pack for roughly the same cost + and ability to upgrade the CCW.
The Librarian is nice - IF you have enough Phobos Armored (i.e. Vanguard) units to make his powers worthwhile.

The Infiltrators are outstanding. Great unit, the Helix Adept is good, just not as good as your gut reaction, or as bad as your second reaction.

The Suppressors and the Eliminators both suffer from the same problem. Low, fixed, model count with low rate of fire weaponry. Look at the other 3 Model units. Aggressors - 2 6 shot guns, plus the grenade pack. Interceptors are also double fisting 3 or D3 shot guns.

The Eliminators are not especially expensive for 3 snipers with camo cloaks and power armor (a 1+ Save) and special ammunition. But the limit 3 per unit, plus Heavy Support makes it hard to justify the slot given how much competition for Heavy Support there is - their competition are rather obviously the sniper scouts. 10 sniper scouts with camo cloaks have only a 2+, and no special ammo, but they have 10 shots for about 170 points and one Troop slot you had to fill anyway. 6 Elminators have 12 wounds, a 1+ save, and usually - 6 shots for about 150 points. and TWO HEAVY SUPPORT slots. Give me a 10 model Elminator squad - even for 240 ish points in ONE Heavy Support Slot and I'm going to start figuring out what I can live without to take them from time to time.

Suppresors compare poorly vs Plasma Interceptors. Same Str, one less AP, one more D unless the Plasma Overcharges- in which case the Suppresors become -1S same D, less suicidal. The Inceptors have an actually major +1T vs preventing overwatch for an army that doesn't really have any Close Combat units. The only place Suppresors really shine over the Interceptors is in range. For a Flying/Jumping dakka unit - only one of which takes the -1 to hit for flying and jumping - AND can take more battle brothers in the admittedly less stressed Fast Attack slot.

Breton wrote:

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

When playing the game you must follow all rules. Modifiers to dice rolls are cumulative.

BRB update 1.5
Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that
modifiers to characteristics are?
A: Yes.

honestly dude if you tried to pull that gak on me I'd just walk off and let you have your "victory"

 p5freak wrote:
Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

I find it best to think of them as having the UM chapter tactic baked in - fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. That is pretty decent unless you are playing UM in which case its sadly redundant. With their long range and role as backfield fire support they don't want to move unless they have to but that ability to escape from having some annoying unit just touching their toes to shut down their shooting for a turn is nice. As they get the D2 damage without risking blowing themselves up (like hellblasters) the -1 to hit is a bit less crippling: it probably just means one less hit from the unit will be scored.

The bottom line for me is that decent volume of S7 AP-2 D2 shooting is always worth having, that is a really solid statline for any shooting unit. They have enough range to make it hard for a lot of things to get to grips with them and take them off the table while not really being a prime target for the weapons - such as lascannon - which can do so. Also the ability to scoot around grabbing objectives later in the game is not terrible and that is what the smoke is for, it gives you as a player the option to switch from damage output to VP grabbing when you want that option. Decent unit, plenty of utility, possibly a couple of points too expensive but that applies to the whole primaris line IMO.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

When playing the game you must follow all rules. Modifiers to dice rolls are cumulative.

BRB update 1.5
Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that
modifiers to characteristics are?
A: Yes.

Show me the rule that says both modifiers apply? You're absolutely right if the rules said all modifiers apply then they would stack, but the rule doesn't say "in addition to other modifiers" to force the other modifiers to apply. The chapter trait says - basically - that units that couldn't normally fire, now can with a -1.

Nor does it say that flying models that already could do this have an additional -1 because of the other rule they didn't even (have to) use to fall back and fire. Flying models aren't using the chapter trait to fall back. They're using the Fly rule. Are you suggesting eliminators using special ammunition have to use all the rules for all the special ammunition they're not even using because modifiers stack?

My counter argument is two fold... first if you want to literalize the rules, we can do this nit picky thing all day - second That's not even the rule being used in theory.

If you want to tell me Devastators who have to use the trait to fall back and fire have to use the -1 trait penalty, and the -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons, I'd probably agree. If you want to apply the trait rule that I wasn't being forced to use, pack a lunch. And your minis, we're going to be arguing not playing all day and someone needs the table.

 p5freak wrote:
Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

Right. Everybody sees everywhere from where they stand with no terrain blocking LOS anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

If the Codex specific chapter tactic overrides the general FLY rule, it also overrides the general modifiers stack rule and it's a straight -1 for the tactic, without a -1 for moving, or a -1 for shooting at Ravenguard, Darkshrouds and so on and so on. Can't have it both ways, if the codex overrides the BRB, and you do exactly what it says and no more, no less...

But other space marines chapters cant shoot when they fall back from close combat, other than ultramarines .............................

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

If the Codex specific chapter tactic overrides the general FLY rule, it also overrides the general modifiers stack rule and it's a straight -1 for the tactic, without a -1 for moving, or a -1 for shooting at Ravenguard, Darkshrouds and so on and so on. Can't have it both ways, if the codex overrides the BRB, and you do exactly what it says and no more, no less...

Disagree. Absurd results should be discarded just like in real life.

In real life if you get an absurd result first you check your equipment, if it seems right you see if anyone else can replicate your absurd result, and if they can congratulations; you've discovered a stepping stone on the way to a completely new model of physics.

Unless you're in legal. Then there is no such thing as an absurd result, only exploitable loopholes.

(For the record I'm in the "why would the UM faction trait even apply to a unit that already can leave combat without penalty, that's f---ing stupid" camp, but I don't play UMs.)

That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Martel732 wrote:
That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Judges don't rewrite laws. Judges can't rewrite laws. Judges set precidents or throw cases out, but the laws in question just sit there waiting for someone else to try it again (and hope they get a judge less inclined to "legislate from the bench".)

What judges can do that has a permanent effect on the legal code is to rule something unconstitutional and even that isn't rewriting the law, it's telling the legislature "no, this ain't gonna fly".

They absolutely do rewrite laws. I just had a whole course about it.

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Judges don't rewrite laws. Judges can't rewrite laws. Judges set precidents or throw cases out, but the laws in question just sit there waiting for someone else to try it again (and hope they get a judge less inclined to "legislate from the bench".)

What judges can do that has a permanent effect on the legal code is to rule something unconstitutional.

Mind that the power to "interpret" gives judges a he** of a lot of latitude that isn't considered "rewriting" legally but might be considered such by a layperson; we might assume that the Equal Protection Clause ("Nor shall any state...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.") means what it says but until Reed v. Reed (1971, a hundred and three years after the 14th Amendment was ratified) the Supreme Court didn't consider it to cover sex discrimination.

It's basically rewriting. It's always connected to an ambiguity, but there are so many of those because legislatures are terrible at their jobs. And the number one trigger is an absurd result.

Martel732 wrote:
It's basically rewriting...

If you're taking a course on law or judicial history you should be aware that you're operating in a world in which words have very specific technical definitions, and "rewriting" the law is very much not something any court (in the U.S.) is allowed to do, even if you happen to ascribe to a definition of what they're doing that can be described in plain English as "basically rewriting".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
...Unless you're in legal. Then there is no such thing as an absurd result, only exploitable loopholes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation

Well, the prof used the term "rewrite", as in, they had to cross out two words and put in four new ones for the law to function. So yes, they do this from time to time. This usually happens in the case of a) absurd result or b) its so bad they can't even interpret. In those cases, literal rewriting is allowed. It's actually necessary, because trying to get legislatures to revisit topics is almost impossible. So the judge has no choice in these cases. "Allow" isn't even an consideration.

Martel732 wrote:
They absolutely do rewrite laws. I just had a whole course about it.

I had a big spiel about jurisprudence and the difference between changing the letter of the law without legislative cooperation and just setting the precident of a narrower application than what the exact text of a law would allow, but it's been a while since my last college level civics class. And I occasional have to remind myself that the actual process of political sausage-making seldom stays inside the nice clean lines of how things are supposed to work.

Especially when legislatures refuse to do their jobs. The buck stops with the judiciary, because they can't refuse to make a ruling. It's a power that the legislature has de facto surrendered.

So back to the original point, i say all absurd readings of rules are ignored/adjudicated by TOs.

So, how about those infiltrators? Just a tad over priced huh

They can be good, but you are playing with beta rules in effect.

They are in the same position as the Primaris in Dark Imperium were before a codex release.

I think the Vanguard captain is a decent gunline babysitter. He denies deep strike and can have the +1 to hit for a nearby unit warlord trait.

Other than that, they're underwhelming in the extreme.

 Ishagu wrote:
They can be good, but you are playing with beta rules in effect.

They are in the same position as the Primaris in Dark Imperium were before a codex release.

True. If the 5 year lead time is true than infiltrators should be 19, 2pts more than intercessors since they were originally 20.

Martel732 wrote:
It's basically rewriting. It's always connected to an ambiguity, but there are so many of those because legislatures are terrible at their jobs. And the number one trigger is an absurd result.

Your technically incorrect which is the best kind of incorrect, lol. I agree with you to a point. Judges cannot literally change what a law says which is what rewriting a law would be. They can change how the words the legislature choose mean. Having both a law degree and having taken a few classes in legislative writing there are multiple reasons that legislation has to be vague. One is that they can't foresee every scenario or interaction with other laws. So they write laws in general sense and let the courts figure it out. Whether this is good or bad can and has filled endless books but it's the system we have.

This related back to 40k is were GW often get themselves in trouble. To many mechanics over various editions are fine in a bubble but when combined with others create all kind of problems. The opposite is also true. GW some times seems to make some bad assumptions about certain combos always being taken when pricing units.

They might not be able to, but they have.

Martel732 wrote:
They might not be able to, but they have.

Our system has a cure for that though, which is not all that different that GW's CA, FAQs, and Errata. If the legislature/GW thinks that the Tournament scene, players at large/ courts are really getting it wrong you pass/ release additional changes and clarification. There are numerous examples of a court deciding something one way and a legislative body deciding to move to show that's not what we intended so lets change that.

Over all I can't comment on writing rules for a game (no experience in that ) but I have helped form both model and real life legislation and it's not easy. Every word is a potential pitfall and for every person you have in the room (assuming they have generally the same agenda, god help you when they don't ) there are another 10,000 ready to pick it apart. GW could be far better at writing it's core rules but it is nice for once they are sorta trying to fix things more than one time after a codex is released and then hope for better next edition.

Martel732 wrote:

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

If the Codex specific chapter tactic overrides the general FLY rule, it also overrides the general modifiers stack rule and it's a straight -1 for the tactic, without a -1 for moving, or a -1 for shooting at Ravenguard, Darkshrouds and so on and so on. Can't have it both ways, if the codex overrides the BRB, and you do exactly what it says and no more, no less...

Disagree. Absurd results should be discarded just like in real life.

oh I agree forcing Ultramarine flyers into a -1 because they’re Ultramrines using an ability they already had as a flyer etc is ridiculous. But if that’s the way an opponent wants to go, there isn’t a shortage of ways to apply this logic of theirs against their favor ergo if the codex trumps the brb and ultra flyers have an additional -1 even using the fly rule instead of the trait, then the codex trumps the brb and the ONLY have the -1. It’s the same reasoning on the same rule.

I'd appeal to TO, or insist on 4+ at minimum.

 fraser1191 wrote:
So, how about those infiltrators? Just a tad over priced huh

I actually don’t know if they are overpriced. They’re a little more expensive, but that doesn’t mean overpriced. They are statistically the same as intercessors. On the guns -1 AP and 6’s auto wound feels like a close to a wash on value. I suspect the AP results in a few more casualties per 100 games but not enough to measure. The apothecary, the infiltration setup, and the deep strike area denial have to cost something. The difference between a fully loaded Intercessor and Infiltrator squad is about 60 points. An apothecary is about 70 points. The Helix adept is not an apothecary. But he’s at least part of one, plus they can infiltrate, plus they have that LandSpeeder Storm? deep strike denial. 6 points a model for all that doesn’t feel THAT much more expensive.

I’m not sure any of the units in Shadowspear are overpriced, but they have issues. Lieutenants Suppressors and Eliminators all need help - and if they don’t get it then the Librarian needs help on the Phobos only powers.

Shadowspear/Vanguard Marines feels like an attempt to create a Death/Raven/whatever Wing thematic army - in this case more of an insurgent special forces that would be at home in an Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, etc. army. But there aren’t enough Phobos options to cover all the roles necessary to pull it off, and some of the options they do have are bad compared even to non Phobos primaris options.

Yeah, they're 19 points tops. More like 18 or 17. They're overpriced.

The capt is seriously a 60 pt model. He sucks.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, they're 19 points tops. More like 18 or 17. They're overpriced.

The capt is seriously a 60 pt model. He sucks.

The captain is indeed less than impressive. He and the LT are also locked into their loadout and the loadout is kinda bad, which is why - no option and an option that isn’t that impressive makes for a total sum of more suckage than a bad option you’re not forced to take.

Intercessors are 17. You didn’t call them overpriced, yet this unit that does everything they do, plus two pretty cool things should be the same price? It’s a difference of 5 points per model for the two abilities and 10 points per 10 man unit for a portable bandaid dispenser. 2 cool abilities for 5 points doesn’t feel that bad, and 10 points for the bandaid seems cheap.

I get it, I’d like to take more of them too, and some of the sacrificises for them aren’t easy decisions, but that really just reinforces the idea that they’re pretty accurately priced.

Those abilities aren't THAT significant to justify 5 ppm. That's more than a guardsmen. More like 2 ppm. They still die like chumps to damage 2.

Martel732 wrote:
Those abilities aren't THAT significant to justify 5 ppm. That's more than a guardsmen. More like 2 ppm. They still die like chumps to damage 2.

I wouldn't get hung up too much at this point. The units will have point adjustments and additional options once the next codex and the full kits and released.

These units are basically in Beta. Play with them if you like them, ignore them if you don't.

Doing the math on it Infiltrators wind up performing between an Intercessor and a regular Tac Marine on most targets. Since the BS is the same across the board you can just do the numbers on 100 hits:

Vs MEQ
Intercessors put 50 wounds out, 25 failed saves.
Infiltrators put 58 wounds out, 19 failed saves.
Tac Marines put 50 wounds out, 17 failed saves.

On a GEQ those numbers are 55, 48, 44.
On a Land Raided its 5, 5, 2.
On a Russ it's 8, 10, 5

Intercessors are better against everything except T8 3+, so if anything the base price for Infiltrators should actually be cheaper than Intercessors. DS denial and Advanced Deploy are definitely worth something, no argument there, but 6+ points seems too high.

Why does GW overshoot on the high side for EVERY marine unit?

Martel732 wrote:
Why does GW overshoot on the high side for EVERY marine unit?

We'll know if this is still the case following the next codex. It's obvious all Astartes books were written around the same time and all suffer from the same problems.

The releases are coming thick and fast, I expect the next codex in September.

They could have fixed it in CA. They didn't. They make no sense at all. When writing Xenos, it's Vegas party time, but with marines, we gotta be careful with those S4 AP 0 guns or someone might be hurt. Then they publish power fantasy bolter porn. Maybe they are trying to thin out their own customers through fatal cases of blue balls.

Like I've said, stats and points aren't the main problem. It's the lack of stratagems, good relics, warlord traits, competitive psychic powers and chapter tactics on vehicles.

Orks had a point increase in the new codex but their new clan rules, stratagems and abilities made them highly competitive.
Knights were't changed much, but their relics, warlord traits and stratagems put then into most armies.

These kind of changes only come with a new codex. Chapter approved only adjusts points here and there and adds a few additions, it does not re-write rules across an entire codex, it does not re-write stratagems, psychic powers or relics. You have to temper your CA expectations. I saw many people were disappointed last time around and it's because of what they themselves set up in their minds.

Take the humble Repulsor for example. If you had a stratagem to teleport it in and make it shoot twice, suddenly it becomes the most incredible unit.
Take the humble Redemptor Dreadnought and give it the ability to deploy from reserves with the addition of +2 to it's charge. Suddenly Black Templar Redeptors become must use units.

This is what a new codex can do, and changing points has nothing to do with it.

Points are everything. They can make up for poor strats, traits, etc.

Being over costed by even 10% gives you only 90% of the firepower and 90% of the bodies you are supposed to have. It eats away on both ends of the battle. It goes down hill VERY quickly. Most marine units are more than 10% overcosted, too.

In fact, I'd say that at the current costing, GW can't write strats or powers that will fix them given their writing paradigms. There is simply no way to make a tac marine 13 pts in 8th edition. There have been threads dozens of pages long. All failures.

I really don't think you are as experiences in 40k as your boast you are when you dismiss something which is obviously true and significant. Points are something, yes, but stratagems can boost the output or use of something significantly.

A unit can be overpriced by 10%, but if I can make it shoot twice I'm getting double the output for no additional cost.

The best armies have the best stratagem, faction rules, relics and psyhics powers. This is not an opinion, this is a Fact. Your hyperbolic comment and absolutes give you away as an inexperienced, sensationalist player who's lacking real experience in the game. How many armies do you have, and how many times a month do you play? From the way you talk and dismiss opinions you'd have us believe you've won The LVO. I play regularly in organised and casual events and have recently played against team USA champions, the top British ITC player and the Throne of Skulls champion. You don't see me making hyperbolic statements that outright dismiss anything the way you do.


Edit: Typos fixed

Strats help, obviously. I was on the wrong side of shoot twice loota bomb many times. But just having endless cacaphony does not make csm properly costed, as only one squad can use it per turn.

Winning lists usually involve strats going off on undercosted units. The more general the strat, the better. I can't of many overcosted units saved by strats. Thats the game BA are trying to play, in fact.

On the contrary, some units are only popular due to the strats, relics, warlord traits or faction rules available to them.

Such as? Most of the popular units i see are good before that stuff is piled on.

I guess theres the infamous slam capt.

The Knight Castellan only rose to dominance because of strats, relics and Warlord traits. It has sunk again now that Rotate Ion Shields can't elevate the invul to a 3++

Are you for real?
You actually don't know anything about the game.

Oh yeah, that thing. So what else?

Although GW thought it was undercosted as well, so that fits in my bucket nicely.

Chaos units, GSC units, Eldar, Nids, Orks, etc

Lol it's OK to be wrong. It's not OK to be unable to admit it.

Specifically which overcosted units are being saved by stratagems? Youre the expert. Rattle them off. Show me, dont tell me.

Oblits, specifically, and the Eldar flyers you keep bringing up, as a basic example. You really don't know anything, do you? You are actually a scrub shouting people down over the Internet.

How many games a month do you play? Show us your tournament performance. If you can't I suggest you stop spouting your drivel in every topic. It's perfectly fine to be inexperienced, but it's not OK to pretend otherwise and rant constantly.

All the top tier armies are built around their strats, faction traits, relics and/or psychic powers. This is not in question.

I never said they weren"t. But basal efficiency of the units being amplified is of critical importance. I'm saying sufficiently overcosted units can't be rescued by said strats.

So what kinds of strats do you would fix marines?


Eldar flyers dont need strats. They are terrific without them

 Ishagu wrote:
Oblits, specifically, and the Eldar flyers you keep bringing up, as a basic example. You really don't know anything, do you? You are actually a scrub shouting people down over the Internet.

How many games a month do you play? Show us your tournament performance. If you can't I suggest you stop spouting your drivel in every topic. It's perfectly fine to be inexperienced, but it's not OK to pretend otherwise and rant constantly.

All the top tier armies are built around their strats, faction traits, relics and/or psychic powers. This is not in question.

Oblits aren't over-costed and still over perform without double shoot. Even at 115ppm, they're still the most busted unit in the new Codex next to Abaddon and Chosen.

You wouldn't see them in substantial use without the Slaanesh Strat, but they can be run of course. Just like every unit in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said they weren"t. But basal efficiency of the units being amplified is of critical importance. I'm saying sufficiently overcosted units can't be rescued by said strats.

So what kinds of strats do you would fix marines?


Eldar flyers dont need strats. They are terrific without them

Do you even read? I outlined strats, relics, faction traits, psychic powers. None of these things are costed or in the profile. Eldar flyers gain their power from faction traits making them harder to hit in combination with psychic powers. What's the point cost of Alaitoc?

You literally said "Points are everything"
You are literally wrong.

 Ishagu wrote:
Like I've said, stats and points aren't the main problem. It's the lack of stratagems, good relics, warlord traits, competitive psychic powers and chapter tactics on vehicles.

That's not strictly true, increase the HP of every single Marine unit by 50% (rounded up) and they'd be significantly more competitive with no other changes.

It depends on what GW wants Marines to be. They seem to want Marines to be the noob-friendly faction that doesn't have a ton of tricks to remember but is tough as nails so you can make bad plays or positioning mistakes without it being unrecoverable, but Marines aren't nearly resilient enough for that since GW seems to really not get that a 3+ save isn't that good under the current AP rules, and in the current game state GW can't improve Marine toughness or save stats enough to fix it. Making them meaningfully tougher under the current rules means giving them either a blanket 4-up or 5-up FNP or a lot more wounds.

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So, how about those infiltrators? Just a tad over priced huh

I actually don’t know if they are overpriced. They’re a little more expensive, but that doesn’t mean overpriced. They are statistically the same as intercessors. On the guns -1 AP and 6’s auto wound feels like a close to a wash on value. I suspect the AP results in a few more casualties per 100 games but not enough to measure. The apothecary, the infiltration setup, and the deep strike area denial have to cost something. The difference between a fully loaded Intercessor and Infiltrator squad is about 60 points. An apothecary is about 70 points. The Helix adept is not an apothecary. But he’s at least part of one, plus they can infiltrate, plus they have that LandSpeeder Storm? deep strike denial. 6 points a model for all that doesn’t feel THAT much more expensive.

I’m not sure any of the units in Shadowspear are overpriced, but they have issues. Lieutenants Suppressors and Eliminators all need help - and if they don’t get it then the Librarian needs help on the Phobos only powers.

Shadowspear/Vanguard Marines feels like an attempt to create a Death/Raven/whatever Wing thematic army - in this case more of an insurgent special forces that would be at home in an Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, etc. army. But there aren’t enough Phobos options to cover all the roles necessary to pull it off, and some of the options they do have are bad compared even to non Phobos primaris options.

Honestly I think they would be fine at 20 or so. I mostly don't think that they should be exactly double the amount of a scout. I imagine there's a good argument for scouts having more deepstrike denial than infiltrators.

I'd take 20, but they really are sidegrades to intercessors.

I used the Infiltrators tonite and I will say that their guns are useful(against eldar) at least and the denial range helped keep warp spiders at bay.

It was fun using them along with the phobos Librarian & capt. Shrouding them while in cover is an interesting way to protect them. Hallucination probably works best on cultists, guard & other low LD units.

 Ishagu wrote:
The Knight Castellan only rose to dominance because of strats, relics and Warlord traits. It has sunk again now that Rotate Ion Shields can't elevate the invul to a 3++

Are you for real?
You actually don't know anything about the game.

You're doing the same thing you're accusing the others of. You can't take either in a vaccuum. Strats cost CP, and the strat does you no good if you can't afford the points to get the model and the CP. You also can't claim some hypothetical future scenario will make Unit A good in the future so you should buy the less robust kit now, just in case. If the unit will be good at some future junction when it has wargear options in the full model kit, a strat, and a new codex the time to buy it is when the full model kit comes out - especially as that alternate wargear could be the choice that makes it good.

I happen to like the Infiltrators as they are now. I don't think they're overpriced, or at least prohibitively so, as they stand now. I have hope for the Eliminators. They're not bad on a model per model basis, but the combination of Heavy Support and limit 3 make them less appealing now. I'll get them now as long as I'm getting the box for the Infiltrators anyway. Suppressors are abysmal. Almost nothing about them is better designed than the Interceptors. The LT isn't bad, as the only Primaris LT that can deep strike for armies that want to go full, or as close to full Primaris as possible. The Captain is unimpressive but not hold your nose bad. The Librarian is good if you have a Full or Nearly Full Phobos force- or you can use the Phobos only powers on a 6+ or on other marines on an 8+, or if he'll be able to default to Librarian powers instead of Concealment Discipline.

I do think they're still being beta tested, and will be improved. I believe we'll see some changes. Teleportation for Gravis armor - Inner Circle for at least some of Gravis Armor'ed Primaris as Aggressors and potentially Interceptors plus characters get inducted into the Deathwing for game and fluff balance. Gravis is the corollary for Terminator Armor, and Aggressors, the new Terminators. Green Wing Primaris - will still be Green Wing and not Inner Circle. Primaris Death Company is probably in the pipeline - but they've got to figure out what they're going to do for Jump CCW Infantry in the Primaris line first - they're not going to make shooty DC, nor will they make two DC squads in one army, and the players are unlikely to tolerate footslogging DC. Now that Calgar has "crossed the Primaris Rubicon" we should see more Marine special characters get Primaris'ified and we could see some stay Marines while being "killed" in the fluff undergoing the procedure while a new model with an either-or requirement being added i.e. only one Chapter Master, Captain of the <X> Company keyword per faction/Chapter and/or list depending on what they want to do with Soup. So Lysander might be Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> and Captain Pollux the replacement kitted out like a super Aggressor because Primaris + no TH/SS (So far) for Primaris would also be Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> thus you can only have one Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> I suspect Shrike and Lysander also successfully cross the Rubicon as GW is calling it, and will each get to prototype/model the Primaris CC options to replace their LCs and TH/SS - i.e. the infantry ginsu LC replacement, and the Vehicle/Monster killer replacement for TH/SS.

Kantor could go either way, Between Calgar basically having had two bolt storm guantlets for a while now, and Kantor copying that on one hand he doesn't really stand out on the table top as unique. Khan is a candidate for replacement. No Primaris Bikes, and they didn't even give him his bike in the current codex - They're going to have to figure out something to do with bikes sooner or later - Ravenwing and Scars players are already tapping their foot waiting impatiently for that. He'Stan is a candidate to stick around based on wargear, and go either way based on fluff. The guy on the hunt for Vulkan is going to have SOMETHING happen to him when he finds Vulkan - be it get killed, get Primaris-ified, or interned in a Dread.

To get back on track, there are 6 Vanguard units in the Box, 1 is outstanding(Infiltrators), 2 are decent(LT and Librarian), 2 are Meh(Captain and Eliminators), and 1 is poor(Supressors). More options, and a new codex could raise the Meh to Good. That new codex should also fill the holes we're seeing on the Primaris front for Bikes, and Jump CCW (Though unlikely to be direct replacements as similar as Intercessors and Tacs) so be careful focusing on the Phobos. Most of my lists start with a 10 man Intercessor, a 10 man Infiltrator, and a 10 man Sniper/cloak scout squad I don't see that changing until/unless Eliminators start pushing Scouts out performance wise.