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Sometimes I find it amazing that any two people manage to agree on what the rules of this game are for long enough to actually play a match.

More related to the actual topic, on reflection having Target Priority on a Leiutenant and a normal / Primaris Captain is more points efficient by enough to justify it, even if a Captain taking ordes from a Lieutenant feels weird.

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I move them all the time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

You'd pack up if someone tried to make you play the ways appear to be written (note - I don't have both sets of material to hand)?

If you think it is an error or oversight, email their FAQ address, and see if it gets picked up next time around.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

Yikes, YMDC has overflowed...

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like. Even better, email it to GW If it affects you and see if it gets FAQd for the pedantic.

(And p5freak, pleeeeease don’t be the second guy trying to use GW’s email auto response as a rules source... it’s not from the rules team or part of the rules so just nope. It’s general tide you over advice for completing a game without disputes, not rules or prof of RAW or intent. It’s silly when that other guy cites it... don’t be like that!)

 p5freak wrote:
In short, to expensive for what they do.

Not fluffy enough in my BA army.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I never thought I would see the day where someone whined about Darkstrider...

So you're upset about the -1 penalty which is army-wide on a faction that doesn't always get to do the retreat+act normally thing versus a single, unique character who locks you into the T'au Sept(not a bad thing mind!) and brings nothing beyond this utility and his Structural Analyzer?

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

and your source for this is?

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

Is it your opinion that this rule was intended to make ultramarines fly units worse than non ultramarines? It's pretty clear to anyone it is not intended. GW just doesn't have the common sense to write a rule properly. Not to mention - this is basically the beta codex for 40k. It has lots of mistakes.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

Rules are not rules. Rules are what the to says they are. GWs wishes are actually largely irrelevant because ambiguity.

Their advice is meaningless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

The real advantage to suppressors and eliminators is the ancient banner. They will die - but there is a chance they shoot back. Aint no one ever consider moving them.

I never thought I would see the day where someone whined about Darkstrider...

So you're upset about the -1 penalty which is army-wide on a faction that doesn't always get to do the retreat+act normally thing versus a single, unique character who locks you into the T'au Sept(not a bad thing mind!) and brings nothing beyond this utility and his Structural Analyzer?

I'm not complaining about dark strider he isn't even as good as a fireblade IMO. I never use him. Because the ability to fall back and shoot is really not that great because it is massively situational. It's even more situational on Ultramarines where you have to chose to hit on 4's over 3's in CC. It's only use comes into play when people are trying to tie up additional units. I can fool them into not doing it by telling them I can just fall back and shoot. Almost every situation they would be better of doing it anyways.

The -1 makes the trait worthless.

BrianDavion wrote:
and your source for this is?

Specific overrides general. Thats the nature of the rules. You cant charge after advancing (general). Stratagem (specific) allows you to charge after advancing. Legion trait (specific) allows you to charge after advancing.

Xenomancers wrote:
Is it your opinion that this rule was intended to make ultramarines fly units worse than non ultramarines?

My opinion is that tsons (the best psyker faction) shouldnt be able to spam smite without penalty, but they can. But, my opinion doesnt matter. GW makes the game, they make the rules. If they decide to nerf ultramarines its their choice.

Martel732 wrote:
Rules are not rules. Rules are what the to says they are. GWs wishes are actually largely irrelevant because ambiguity.

Their advice is meaningless.

Thanks for the advice, next time i will ask the TO at my FLGS when i play a casual game.

For a casual game, might as well 4+ it

Space Wolves love them, most other armies are kind of indifferent to them.
The Infiltrators are great for the Space Wolves who are happy to be in melee but otherwise have no access to Concealed Positions, any other marine army simply would not use them that way or would use Scouts instead.
When Suppressors have a flexible unit size they'll be great for any assault army. Being locked to three is just a wonky number, too many to be a minimal harassment unit and not enough to divvy up shots into multiple units expecting to kill a single model or threaten anything bigger than a Land Speeder outright - when the unit has access to a 2 model minimum or four models in one unit they'll be great fun.
Phobos Rune Priest with Master of Vanguard Warlord trait works great with Wulfen dropping their 9' charge to an 8' charge from deepstrike although I do wonder if a Phobos Lieutenant isn't a better option, when it's only a twenty point difference it's hard to decide between being cheaper and throwing tempestas psychic powers around to add to the Wulfen's arrival. The Blood Angels might see some benefit from a Phobos Lieutenant with Master of the Vanguard, I'm not sure they'd care much for the Phobos Libby though.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its an absurd result and therefore unenforceable in my book.

What's absurd is the -1 penalty to begin with. Dark strider gives this ability to fire warriors in a 6" aura whilst being 3 points more than a fire blade and they don't get a -1 to hit penalty. Plus - I'd pretty much pack up at that moment if anyone every tried to make me take a -2 to hit when falling back with a fly unit as ultra marines.

Rules are rules. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like suffering 30MW per turn when playing against Tsons smite spam. Do i pack up ? No, i dont.

Email GW at their FAQ email address, they will reply you with the advice to use rules as written, even if you dont like the outcome.

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

Edit: As for the actual units...

The Captain is a Sniper Scout Captain. He's the 10th company captain people have wanted for years, now that they're theoretically replacing all 10 companies with Primaris.
The LT is nice because he can deep strike - so can the non-Primaris with a Jump Pack for roughly the same cost + and ability to upgrade the CCW.
The Librarian is nice - IF you have enough Phobos Armored (i.e. Vanguard) units to make his powers worthwhile.

The Infiltrators are outstanding. Great unit, the Helix Adept is good, just not as good as your gut reaction, or as bad as your second reaction.

The Suppressors and the Eliminators both suffer from the same problem. Low, fixed, model count with low rate of fire weaponry. Look at the other 3 Model units. Aggressors - 2 6 shot guns, plus the grenade pack. Interceptors are also double fisting 3 or D3 shot guns.

The Eliminators are not especially expensive for 3 snipers with camo cloaks and power armor (a 1+ Save) and special ammunition. But the limit 3 per unit, plus Heavy Support makes it hard to justify the slot given how much competition for Heavy Support there is - their competition are rather obviously the sniper scouts. 10 sniper scouts with camo cloaks have only a 2+, and no special ammo, but they have 10 shots for about 170 points and one Troop slot you had to fill anyway. 6 Elminators have 12 wounds, a 1+ save, and usually - 6 shots for about 150 points. and TWO HEAVY SUPPORT slots. Give me a 10 model Elminator squad - even for 240 ish points in ONE Heavy Support Slot and I'm going to start figuring out what I can live without to take them from time to time.

Suppresors compare poorly vs Plasma Interceptors. Same Str, one less AP, one more D unless the Plasma Overcharges- in which case the Suppresors become -1S same D, less suicidal. The Inceptors have an actually major +1T vs preventing overwatch for an army that doesn't really have any Close Combat units. The only place Suppresors really shine over the Interceptors is in range. For a Flying/Jumping dakka unit - only one of which takes the -1 to hit for flying and jumping - AND can take more battle brothers in the admittedly less stressed Fast Attack slot.

Breton wrote:

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

When playing the game you must follow all rules. Modifiers to dice rolls are cumulative.

BRB update 1.5
Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that
modifiers to characteristics are?
A: Yes.

honestly dude if you tried to pull that gak on me I'd just walk off and let you have your "victory"

 p5freak wrote:
Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

I find it best to think of them as having the UM chapter tactic baked in - fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. That is pretty decent unless you are playing UM in which case its sadly redundant. With their long range and role as backfield fire support they don't want to move unless they have to but that ability to escape from having some annoying unit just touching their toes to shut down their shooting for a turn is nice. As they get the D2 damage without risking blowing themselves up (like hellblasters) the -1 to hit is a bit less crippling: it probably just means one less hit from the unit will be scored.

The bottom line for me is that decent volume of S7 AP-2 D2 shooting is always worth having, that is a really solid statline for any shooting unit. They have enough range to make it hard for a lot of things to get to grips with them and take them off the table while not really being a prime target for the weapons - such as lascannon - which can do so. Also the ability to scoot around grabbing objectives later in the game is not terrible and that is what the smoke is for, it gives you as a player the option to switch from damage output to VP grabbing when you want that option. Decent unit, plenty of utility, possibly a couple of points too expensive but that applies to the whole primaris line IMO.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

The Chapter Tactic does not say they suffer the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons - Or any other modifier beyond the penalty for using their tactic for that matter - when using their tactic ability. Alternately one can point out that the Ultramarine Suppresors have two mechanics for falling back and shooting - the Fly rule, and the Chapter Tactic, so they can get the -1 to shoot with heavy weapons for a flying fall back, or the -1 to shoot for falling back as an Ultramarine.

When playing the game you must follow all rules. Modifiers to dice rolls are cumulative.

BRB update 1.5
Q: Are modifiers to dice rolls cumulative in the same way that
modifiers to characteristics are?
A: Yes.

Show me the rule that says both modifiers apply? You're absolutely right if the rules said all modifiers apply then they would stack, but the rule doesn't say "in addition to other modifiers" to force the other modifiers to apply. The chapter trait says - basically - that units that couldn't normally fire, now can with a -1.

Nor does it say that flying models that already could do this have an additional -1 because of the other rule they didn't even (have to) use to fall back and fire. Flying models aren't using the chapter trait to fall back. They're using the Fly rule. Are you suggesting eliminators using special ammunition have to use all the rules for all the special ammunition they're not even using because modifiers stack?

My counter argument is two fold... first if you want to literalize the rules, we can do this nit picky thing all day - second That's not even the rule being used in theory.

If you want to tell me Devastators who have to use the trait to fall back and fire have to use the -1 trait penalty, and the -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons, I'd probably agree. If you want to apply the trait rule that I wasn't being forced to use, pack a lunch. And your minis, we're going to be arguing not playing all day and someone needs the table.

 p5freak wrote:
Suppressors are weird. They can deepstrike, but dont really want to, because they get -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont need to, because they have 48" range. Same with moving, they can move 10" and have FLY, but dont really want to, because of the -1 to hit, when they do. And they dont really need to, because of the 48" range. I dont understand this unit

Right. Everybody sees everywhere from where they stand with no terrain blocking LOS anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

If the Codex specific chapter tactic overrides the general FLY rule, it also overrides the general modifiers stack rule and it's a straight -1 for the tactic, without a -1 for moving, or a -1 for shooting at Ravenguard, Darkshrouds and so on and so on. Can't have it both ways, if the codex overrides the BRB, and you do exactly what it says and no more, no less...

But other space marines chapters cant shoot when they fall back from close combat, other than ultramarines .............................

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Pretty obvious that the innate FLY ability overrides the Ultramarines -1, but hey, cry RAW and play fun police if you like.

No, sorry. Specific chapter tactic overrides general FLY rule.

I suppose you are also claiming you don't shoot assault weapons after advancing and claim to play 100% RAW despite that being provenly impossible.

If the Codex specific chapter tactic overrides the general FLY rule, it also overrides the general modifiers stack rule and it's a straight -1 for the tactic, without a -1 for moving, or a -1 for shooting at Ravenguard, Darkshrouds and so on and so on. Can't have it both ways, if the codex overrides the BRB, and you do exactly what it says and no more, no less...

Disagree. Absurd results should be discarded just like in real life.

In real life if you get an absurd result first you check your equipment, if it seems right you see if anyone else can replicate your absurd result, and if they can congratulations; you've discovered a stepping stone on the way to a completely new model of physics.

Unless you're in legal. Then there is no such thing as an absurd result, only exploitable loopholes.

(For the record I'm in the "why would the UM faction trait even apply to a unit that already can leave combat without penalty, that's f---ing stupid" camp, but I don't play UMs.)

That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Martel732 wrote:
That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Judges don't rewrite laws. Judges can't rewrite laws. Judges set precidents or throw cases out, but the laws in question just sit there waiting for someone else to try it again (and hope they get a judge less inclined to "legislate from the bench".)

What judges can do that has a permanent effect on the legal code is to rule something unconstitutional and even that isn't rewriting the law, it's telling the legislature "no, this ain't gonna fly".

They absolutely do rewrite laws. I just had a whole course about it.

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's demonstrably untrue. Judges rewrite laws fairly frequently to avoid absurd results.

Judges don't rewrite laws. Judges can't rewrite laws. Judges set precidents or throw cases out, but the laws in question just sit there waiting for someone else to try it again (and hope they get a judge less inclined to "legislate from the bench".)

What judges can do that has a permanent effect on the legal code is to rule something unconstitutional.

Mind that the power to "interpret" gives judges a he** of a lot of latitude that isn't considered "rewriting" legally but might be considered such by a layperson; we might assume that the Equal Protection Clause ("Nor shall any state...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.") means what it says but until Reed v. Reed (1971, a hundred and three years after the 14th Amendment was ratified) the Supreme Court didn't consider it to cover sex discrimination.