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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Oh yeah, that thing. So what else?

Although GW thought it was undercosted as well, so that fits in my bucket nicely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 14:54:36


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Chaos units, GSC units, Eldar, Nids, Orks, etc

Lol it's OK to be wrong. It's not OK to be unable to admit it.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Specifically which overcosted units are being saved by stratagems? Youre the expert. Rattle them off. Show me, dont tell me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 14:58:55


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Oblits, specifically, and the Eldar flyers you keep bringing up, as a basic example. You really don't know anything, do you? You are actually a scrub shouting people down over the Internet.

How many games a month do you play? Show us your tournament performance. If you can't I suggest you stop spouting your drivel in every topic. It's perfectly fine to be inexperienced, but it's not OK to pretend otherwise and rant constantly.

All the top tier armies are built around their strats, faction traits, relics and/or psychic powers. This is not in question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 15:11:08


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I never said they weren"t. But basal efficiency of the units being amplified is of critical importance. I'm saying sufficiently overcosted units can't be rescued by said strats.

So what kinds of strats do you would fix marines?


Eldar flyers dont need strats. They are terrific without them

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 15:17:52


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 Ishagu wrote:
Oblits, specifically, and the Eldar flyers you keep bringing up, as a basic example. You really don't know anything, do you? You are actually a scrub shouting people down over the Internet.

How many games a month do you play? Show us your tournament performance. If you can't I suggest you stop spouting your drivel in every topic. It's perfectly fine to be inexperienced, but it's not OK to pretend otherwise and rant constantly.

All the top tier armies are built around their strats, faction traits, relics and/or psychic powers. This is not in question.


Oblits aren't over-costed and still over perform without double shoot. Even at 115ppm, they're still the most busted unit in the new Codex next to Abaddon and Chosen.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

You wouldn't see them in substantial use without the Slaanesh Strat, but they can be run of course. Just like every unit in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
I never said they weren"t. But basal efficiency of the units being amplified is of critical importance. I'm saying sufficiently overcosted units can't be rescued by said strats.

So what kinds of strats do you would fix marines?


Eldar flyers dont need strats. They are terrific without them


Do you even read? I outlined strats, relics, faction traits, psychic powers. None of these things are costed or in the profile. Eldar flyers gain their power from faction traits making them harder to hit in combination with psychic powers. What's the point cost of Alaitoc?

You literally said "Points are everything"
You are literally wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 15:23:42


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
Like I've said, stats and points aren't the main problem. It's the lack of stratagems, good relics, warlord traits, competitive psychic powers and chapter tactics on vehicles.


That's not strictly true, increase the HP of every single Marine unit by 50% (rounded up) and they'd be significantly more competitive with no other changes.

It depends on what GW wants Marines to be. They seem to want Marines to be the noob-friendly faction that doesn't have a ton of tricks to remember but is tough as nails so you can make bad plays or positioning mistakes without it being unrecoverable, but Marines aren't nearly resilient enough for that since GW seems to really not get that a 3+ save isn't that good under the current AP rules, and in the current game state GW can't improve Marine toughness or save stats enough to fix it. Making them meaningfully tougher under the current rules means giving them either a blanket 4-up or 5-up FNP or a lot more wounds.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 17:28:15


   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Breton wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So, how about those infiltrators? Just a tad over priced huh


I actually don’t know if they are overpriced. They’re a little more expensive, but that doesn’t mean overpriced. They are statistically the same as intercessors. On the guns -1 AP and 6’s auto wound feels like a close to a wash on value. I suspect the AP results in a few more casualties per 100 games but not enough to measure. The apothecary, the infiltration setup, and the deep strike area denial have to cost something. The difference between a fully loaded Intercessor and Infiltrator squad is about 60 points. An apothecary is about 70 points. The Helix adept is not an apothecary. But he’s at least part of one, plus they can infiltrate, plus they have that LandSpeeder Storm? deep strike denial. 6 points a model for all that doesn’t feel THAT much more expensive.

I’m not sure any of the units in Shadowspear are overpriced, but they have issues. Lieutenants Suppressors and Eliminators all need help - and if they don’t get it then the Librarian needs help on the Phobos only powers.

Shadowspear/Vanguard Marines feels like an attempt to create a Death/Raven/whatever Wing thematic army - in this case more of an insurgent special forces that would be at home in an Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, etc. army. But there aren’t enough Phobos options to cover all the roles necessary to pull it off, and some of the options they do have are bad compared even to non Phobos primaris options.


Honestly I think they would be fine at 20 or so. I mostly don't think that they should be exactly double the amount of a scout. I imagine there's a good argument for scouts having more deepstrike denial than infiltrators.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I'd take 20, but they really are sidegrades to intercessors.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

I used the Infiltrators tonite and I will say that their guns are useful(against eldar) at least and the denial range helped keep warp spiders at bay.

It was fun using them along with the phobos Librarian & capt. Shrouding them while in cover is an interesting way to protect them. Hallucination probably works best on cultists, guard & other low LD units.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Ishagu wrote:
The Knight Castellan only rose to dominance because of strats, relics and Warlord traits. It has sunk again now that Rotate Ion Shields can't elevate the invul to a 3++

Are you for real?
You actually don't know anything about the game.


You're doing the same thing you're accusing the others of. You can't take either in a vaccuum. Strats cost CP, and the strat does you no good if you can't afford the points to get the model and the CP. You also can't claim some hypothetical future scenario will make Unit A good in the future so you should buy the less robust kit now, just in case. If the unit will be good at some future junction when it has wargear options in the full model kit, a strat, and a new codex the time to buy it is when the full model kit comes out - especially as that alternate wargear could be the choice that makes it good.

I happen to like the Infiltrators as they are now. I don't think they're overpriced, or at least prohibitively so, as they stand now. I have hope for the Eliminators. They're not bad on a model per model basis, but the combination of Heavy Support and limit 3 make them less appealing now. I'll get them now as long as I'm getting the box for the Infiltrators anyway. Suppressors are abysmal. Almost nothing about them is better designed than the Interceptors. The LT isn't bad, as the only Primaris LT that can deep strike for armies that want to go full, or as close to full Primaris as possible. The Captain is unimpressive but not hold your nose bad. The Librarian is good if you have a Full or Nearly Full Phobos force- or you can use the Phobos only powers on a 6+ or on other marines on an 8+, or if he'll be able to default to Librarian powers instead of Concealment Discipline.

I do think they're still being beta tested, and will be improved. I believe we'll see some changes. Teleportation for Gravis armor - Inner Circle for at least some of Gravis Armor'ed Primaris as Aggressors and potentially Interceptors plus characters get inducted into the Deathwing for game and fluff balance. Gravis is the corollary for Terminator Armor, and Aggressors, the new Terminators. Green Wing Primaris - will still be Green Wing and not Inner Circle. Primaris Death Company is probably in the pipeline - but they've got to figure out what they're going to do for Jump CCW Infantry in the Primaris line first - they're not going to make shooty DC, nor will they make two DC squads in one army, and the players are unlikely to tolerate footslogging DC. Now that Calgar has "crossed the Primaris Rubicon" we should see more Marine special characters get Primaris'ified and we could see some stay Marines while being "killed" in the fluff undergoing the procedure while a new model with an either-or requirement being added i.e. only one Chapter Master, Captain of the <X> Company keyword per faction/Chapter and/or list depending on what they want to do with Soup. So Lysander might be Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> and Captain Pollux the replacement kitted out like a super Aggressor because Primaris + no TH/SS (So far) for Primaris would also be Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> thus you can only have one Captain of the <First Company, Imperial Fists> I suspect Shrike and Lysander also successfully cross the Rubicon as GW is calling it, and will each get to prototype/model the Primaris CC options to replace their LCs and TH/SS - i.e. the infantry ginsu LC replacement, and the Vehicle/Monster killer replacement for TH/SS.

Kantor could go either way, Between Calgar basically having had two bolt storm guantlets for a while now, and Kantor copying that on one hand he doesn't really stand out on the table top as unique. Khan is a candidate for replacement. No Primaris Bikes, and they didn't even give him his bike in the current codex - They're going to have to figure out something to do with bikes sooner or later - Ravenwing and Scars players are already tapping their foot waiting impatiently for that. He'Stan is a candidate to stick around based on wargear, and go either way based on fluff. The guy on the hunt for Vulkan is going to have SOMETHING happen to him when he finds Vulkan - be it get killed, get Primaris-ified, or interned in a Dread.

To get back on track, there are 6 Vanguard units in the Box, 1 is outstanding(Infiltrators), 2 are decent(LT and Librarian), 2 are Meh(Captain and Eliminators), and 1 is poor(Supressors). More options, and a new codex could raise the Meh to Good. That new codex should also fill the holes we're seeing on the Primaris front for Bikes, and Jump CCW (Though unlikely to be direct replacements as similar as Intercessors and Tacs) so be careful focusing on the Phobos. Most of my lists start with a 10 man Intercessor, a 10 man Infiltrator, and a 10 man Sniper/cloak scout squad I don't see that changing until/unless Eliminators start pushing Scouts out performance wise.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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