Storm guardians. I love them, but I just can't bring myself to actually field them. They're just such a terribly designed unit, even at 6ppm. The same goes for falcons imo.
Every Phoenix Lord that's not Asurmen. I love their fluff but the models are generally awful. Maugan looks super static, Faugan is weird and old looking, Baharroth I actually like, Karandras has ridiculous mandiblasters and Jain Zar haunts my dreams.
Another vote for Storm Guardians. Lot's of conversion possibilities, and for me it's like they are Howling Banshees or scorpions in training...I use them on the table with my group, but they really stink even at 6ppm.
Space Marine Land Speeders. The model screams the future, and I think it does a great job of combining "it could work but is WAY above technology we have". Sadly, an absolute waste of points in the game right now. Labd soeeder storm same. Love the modeling oppurtunities of scouts hanging off and such. Way too expensive.
Any Imperial Guard vehicle "designed" to shoot aircraft down (the autocannon type). Love the concept and model generally, the game rules on flyers being basically tanks that fly means none of these can actually do any real damage to a flyer. (Flyers should be fast but fragile, in this game they are absolutely not and that is lame (and I know, "sell those models" ruleset))
When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
Bloodcrushers. I want to use them...but it’s better to just take more Bloodletters. And Soul Grinders. Awesome models, there are just better options. Same with Be’Lakor; awesome, works great, I just don’t have room for him, especially with how difficult he is to pop into a list (based on detachment rules).
Land speeders, attack bikes, whirlwinds and vindicator tanks. I mean how can they fail so miserably with writing rules for these? None of them can perform, even in the fields they are supposed to excell!
edwardmyst wrote: Another vote for Storm Guardians. Lot's of conversion possibilities, and for me it's like they are Howling Banshees or scorpions in training...I use them on the table with my group, but they really stink even at 6ppm.
Space Marine Land Speeders. The model screams the future, and I think it does a great job of combining "it could work but is WAY above technology we have". Sadly, an absolute waste of points in the game right now. Labd soeeder storm same. Love the modeling oppurtunities of scouts hanging off and such. Way too expensive.
Any Imperial Guard vehicle "designed" to shoot aircraft down (the autocannon type). Love the concept and model generally, the game rules on flyers being basically tanks that fly means none of these can actually do any real damage to a flyer. (Flyers should be fast but fragile, in this game they are absolutely not and that is lame (and I know, "sell those models" ruleset))
This makes me sad because Marine aircraft are notably flimsier than Marine tanks, and Marine tanks are pretty flimsy to begin with.
I can't point to a unit that I like but never use because I'm goofy about trying to make units I like work even when I know they're terrible, but I wish the Storm Raven and Storm Talon gunships and both types of Centurions had better rules. I almost never play my Terminators either.
edwardmyst wrote: Another vote for Storm Guardians. Lot's of conversion possibilities, and for me it's like they are Howling Banshees or scorpions in training...I use them on the table with my group, but they really stink even at 6ppm.
Space Marine Land Speeders. The model screams the future, and I think it does a great job of combining "it could work but is WAY above technology we have". Sadly, an absolute waste of points in the game right now. Labd soeeder storm same. Love the modeling oppurtunities of scouts hanging off and such. Way too expensive.
Any Imperial Guard vehicle "designed" to shoot aircraft down (the autocannon type). Love the concept and model generally, the game rules on flyers being basically tanks that fly means none of these can actually do any real damage to a flyer. (Flyers should be fast but fragile, in this game they are absolutely not and that is lame (and I know, "sell those models" ruleset))
This makes me sad because Marine aircraft are notably flimsier than Marine tanks, and Marine tanks are pretty flimsy to begin with.
I can't point to a unit that I like but never use because I'm goofy about trying to make units I like work even when I know they're terrible, but I wish the Storm Raven and Storm Talon gunships and both types of Centurions had better rules. I almost never play my Terminators either.
You could have a hellturkey.
Whilest profile wise not beeing flimsy at all, the pricepoint and lack of -1 to hit against it makes it into a rather rare sight nowadays. (altough it is justifyingly repenting for the sins of it's introduction)
Plague Hulk and Blight Drones. I use them every now and then but always realize Bloat Drone and Plagueburst Crawler do the same or more for 80 points less, which is a shame as the models are awesome.
Gitdakka wrote: Land speeders, attack bikes, whirlwinds and vindicator tanks. I mean how can they fail so miserably with writing rules for these? None of them can perform, even in the fields they are supposed to excell!
I'll second the Land speeders and Attack bikes. Both iconic and somewhat unique units among Space Marines. I'd love to see more on the table.
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
I'll do it. What do I need to try it out? Can I proxy my guard forces?
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
I'll do it. What do I need to try it out? Can I proxy my guard forces?
You basically just need the e-book if you have a sizeable guard force.
GL i'll wait .
Edit: The index: forces astra militarum from FW, all required units are in there.
Yeah, they can't have missed to address them for so long, it is intentional. Seriously, have you seen how nerfed the Land Speeder has been in 8th ? It wasn't even that great before !
godardc wrote: Yeah, they can't have missed to address them for so long, it is intentional. Seriously, have you seen how nerfed the Land Speeder has been in 8th ? It wasn't even that great before !
Well the new Primaris TM with more dakka and higher flightstand has to sell.
I tend to use most of my units, even if they suck - and some of them suck in casual settings, even.
Eldar: Swooping Hawks: Expensive, pay 7 points for a four-shot lasgun. Toughness 3, 4+ armour...die to a stiff breeze.
Fire Dragons: Egregiously expensive and absolute gak compared to Wraithguard who are slightly more expensive.
Warp Spiders: Unique but semi-pointless. Strength 6 don't matter when you've got no armour penetration 84% of the time. Disappointing mostly.
Striking Scorpions: Almost worth it, but dedicated high-speed space elves who've practiced the art of close combat for decades are no match for chaff throwing 4-5 attacks with spells/strats at 1/3rd the cost.
Howling Banshees: Suicidal lawn-darts. Better at stopping overwatch than actually fighting in close combat...whole squad will perish to 3-4 Ork boyz or a couple genestealers.
Warlocks: These I actually no longer use. They are so absolute gak, despite their powers I can't justify the points cost. Spiritseers and Farseers are okay.
Phoenix Lords: Cool, and I even love the models...but heroes who mostly want to get close, with no invulnerable save just disappear to anything shooting them. Asurmen and Fuegan are okay (invuln, and FNP respectively). Maugan Ra stands out since he doesn't need to get close.
Storm Guardians: Still don't see why this needed to happen...go back to just "Guardian" squads. Give me 4+ shooting/fighting at 6 points, and let me choose how to outfit my squad instead of arbitrarily dividing them. Guardians used to be able to take a nice selection of guns.
Eldar Support Weapons: Garbage, though some got a minor points decrease. Their weapon rules are completely gak.
In general, the Eldar Aspect Warriors suffer just like Space Marines. Assault units that can't compete with a simple Ork boy, and paying for skill and armour that doesn't benefit them in the waves of cheap boosted chaff units. They could literally all be fixed with a couple of stratagems which are aimed explicitly at their aspect. Phoenix Lords share the Aspect keywords, so this could be fixed quite easily...but I suspect GW is replacing the whole line instead of paying any attention to them (note the Specialist Detachments were aimed at Wraithguard and Guardian Bikers of all things...). I still use them on occasion and more or less regret it every single time.
godardc wrote: Yeah, they can't have missed to address them for so long, it is intentional. Seriously, have you seen how nerfed the Land Speeder has been in 8th ? It wasn't even that great before !
Well the new Primaris TM with more dakka and higher flightstand has to sell.
You jest...but unfortunately (not a conspiracy, just a genuine observation) this is actually intentional. Primaris have, thus far, outdone all of their normal marine counterparts and will continue to do so. Only just, but it will continue. It's the easiest way to slowly reduce old Marine kit sales, and then justify canceling them (again we're years out from some of this, but it's absolutely the plan).
WraithKnight. It needed a nerf from 7E, but GW overcompensated and made then garbage. They're a better now after their points dropped nearly 100pts. but they still cant' compare to Knights (which themselves aren't super great)
Elbows wrote: You mean you don't like a 380+ point model which gets four shots a turn? (I haven't looked at the datasheet in a while...but it's sooo underwhelming).
Yikes, might aswell delete the entry From King to beggar or as we would say here:
König, Kaiser, hoseseicher.
King, emperor, Person that pees their pants.
First one was a Corsair Prince I made in 7th. Strangely, he hasn't seen much use in 8th. Can't think why that might be.
Second one was basically another try at the same concept, as I never liked the wings I used on the first one.
Since DE still has bugger-all in the way of winged HQs, they're both forced to lead from the safety of their command centre on Planet Shelf.
In terms of off-the-shelf (no pun intended) units:
Incubi. I love the models but boy do they suck. Their weapons are weak, they're very fragile, they need a transport (unlike Mandrakes who compete for the same slot), and they have 0 support outside of 1 godawful special character who's little more than a glorified squad sergeant (but several times more expensive).
Medusae. Love the idea. Pity their rules were written by a haddock.
Cronos. I don't even know what this thing's role is supposed to be. It has bad shooting, bad melee and it's support abilities are laughably bad.
Veterans and Special Weapons Squads. I like the idea of these, especially having dozens of special weapons guys driving around in Chimeras. However, their being Elites makes them really bad, and the Rule of 3 kills them entirely.
Triarch Praetorians. Love the models. Love the idea. Wish the had even an iota of support.
Necron Destroyer Lord. Why does a melee HQ have WS3+? Why does a melee HQ have an aura that only supports a single, ranged unit? Why could it not have had the Necron Lord's aura (it's literally a Necron Lord with a Destroyer body!)? Does this model just need to be awful by some arbitrary decree?
Trazyn. Love his fluff but his rules are beyond awful. What happened to Mindshackle Scarabs? You know, the one piece of wargear that actually made Trazyn worth a damn. For a collector of artefacts he appears to have 0 artefacts. Also, his ability to body-swap with other models was based around him replacing models that cost 25-35pts. Now he's forced to replace models costing 70+pts, all of which are probably significantly more useful than Trazyn himself.
Legion of the Damned are famous enough to get an Index Astartes article...but then if they don't make the Primaris transition they'll be forgotten and disappear.
Elbows wrote: Legion of the Damned are famous enough to get an Index Astartes article...but then if they don't make the Primaris transition they'll be forgotten and disappear.
Thought about your statement before.
Imo it would br a shame.
Yep, normal scale marine units which were originally metal/resin because they were small-production or special units likely will all disappear. Sad for people running off-shoot chapters etc.
Lots of units come to mind just in my own collection:
Tactical Marines
Assault Marines
Land Speeders that aren't Sammael or Talonmasters
Nephilim Jetfighter (AKA the Dark Talon's idiot cousin)
Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Terminators of pretty much any flavor
Drop Pods
Possessed
Helbrutes (the generic ones; the FW ones actually are decent)
Flesh Hounds
Bloodthirsters
Vespids
Crisis Suits (yes, GW gave them some help in the last CA but they are still outperformed by other units sadly)
I'd like to see Ghaz featured in more lists. He's so iconic for modern Orkz, but because he's Kultur locked into a Goff, no one really runs him. Not that Goffs are bad, but compared to Bad Moonz, Deathskullz, and Evil Sunz, they don't bring enough to the table.
Also: Killa Kanz. I feel like they would be much more competitive and useful if they could utilize Kultur and Stratagems. As they are, they're just too expensive, too fragile, and too weak to field in anything but the most casual of settings.
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
There's a guy in my town with a sweet R&H army and he does very well casually and in lighter tournies. One of the first armies I played against with my EC.
ZergSmasher wrote: Lots of units come to mind just in my own collection:
Tactical Marines
Assault Marines
Land Speeders that aren't Sammael or Talonmasters
Nephilim Jetfighter (AKA the Dark Talon's idiot cousin)
Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Terminators of pretty much any flavor
Drop Pods
Possessed
Helbrutes (the generic ones; the FW ones actually are decent)
Flesh Hounds
Bloodthirsters
Vespids
Crisis Suits (yes, GW gave them some help in the last CA but they are still outperformed by other units sadly)
Helbrutes and Possessed are actually decent units, at least as Death Guard.
For me it's the Repentia, Arco flaggelants, death cult assassins and crusaders. Until recently I would have said penitent engines too, but they've found a place in my lists as a counter assault unit defending my back field exorcist castle.
I have repentia and arc is and even priests, but they never make my lists...Just don't fit my play style. I know Aegis are good right now with their stratagem but they're just not my go to.
I use lots of different things people think are bad. I'd like it if they were better. So while I can't really answer the question you asked - to answer the spirit of your question -
Edit To Add: One of my favorite compliments from a guy I used to play with was he hated my lists because he couldn't figure out a target priority Any given unit had about the same priority as any other unit. Even running the same lists the games were usually different based on what he prioritized opening up opportunities for another unit. Most of my wishlist is for each army to get more of that balance.
Nearly any and every troops choice, especially in larger than minimum loadouts.
Viable fluffy but non-standard lists - i.e. Death and/or Combi-wing, The Golden Host.
Rhinos with 10-ish man Tac Squads counting any characters - Fully Mechanised SM lists.
The Fallen - especially with rules that don't require Dark Angels so they aren't narrative niche.
Flamer type weapons.
The Primaris version of a Rhi.. oh. Oops, wrong wish list.
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
There's a guy in my town with a sweet R&H army and he does very well casually and in lighter tournies. One of the first armies I played against with my EC.
K, nice, ask him about how he is feeling about the state of the index garbage fire, how many units and unit concepts he had to axe, I'll wait.
Because i could literally throw out my whole army at that point thanks to renegade grenadiers not existing anymore.
Togusa wrote: When you stop trying to min/max and roll with the waac group, all of these units are actually fun to use. I've run SG, Tacticals and Land Speeders in 8th, with great success.
But in keeping with the theme, when it comes to playing more competitively, I wish terminators were actual matches to their fulff. Neigh unkillable death machines marching slowly into the bowels of the enemy stronghold.
I dare you to field a renegades and heretics army even in a casual environment.
There's a guy in my town with a sweet R&H army and he does very well casually and in lighter tournies. One of the first armies I played against with my EC.
K, nice, ask him about how he is feeling about the state of the index garbage fire, how many units and unit concepts he had to axe, I'll wait.
Because i could literally throw out my whole army at that point thanks to renegade grenadiers not existing anymore.
Chaplains. SMHQs have always had a revolving roster of who’s trash and who’s great. I think the last time the chaplain wasn’t at or near the bottom of that list was 3rd, where they were actually at/near the top. Which is a shame, as they really sum up the flavor of 40k in one awesome looking model.
Assault marines. The core of the marine army rests upon the tripod of Tac/Dev/Assault marines. So the lore tells us. They descend upon wings of fire to bring ruin to the foes of mankind in a maelstrom of violence. Or these days, get shot a lot before slapping their foes like a wet noodle. Even in prior editions where they were bemoaned as useless, they still could function as a bully unit. Lark around the backfield, find something weaker than them in CC, take their lunch money. But I think 8th is the weakest they’ve been, and that’s a pretty low bar. (I’m taking 20 in my next list despite this, just to get the dust off them)
Land speeders. Another unit that I enjoy that’s been classically panned. They used to have a number of useful jobs. Toss some MMs on them and they functioned as a piece of dangerous terrain. “Move your tank within 24” of here, and there is a good chance you die” I always got a lot of use out of my TML/HB speeders. They tossed enough fire downrange to be effective, but not so much to get to the top of the threat list. They could jink if things go tough, and had movement to take advantage of targets of opportunity. When wounds were allocated directionally, the ability of slide around to the right angle and drop some fire was nice. These days they are expensive, vulnerable, and lost the ability to project fire on the move effectively, which was kind of their thing.
I’d say Drop Pods, as they don’t see action. But I don’t like them. I like their concept, and the classic imagery of a marine force slamming down in planetfall. But the models never really thrilled me, and are a bear to build/paint. I’ve got 3 collecting dust. I occasionally include one, depending on the theme of a list.
Anyone with a flamer/metlagun. 8th edition really let them down in a bad way. DS range restictions, price point, rules, the list goes on. Two of the classic marine weapons are basically shelf warmers these days.
Terminators have alway sucked, but I field them anyway. They are better today then they have been in a while.
I’ll also go ahead and say assault marines. Love their esthetics and the idea of a future warrior with a jet pack rushing at you from the skies to swing a freaking chain sword at your face. They’re just very underwhelming game wise now.
Scout sentinels. I love the looks and the idea of it, but I just don’t get what it’s supposed to do. Never see it in games.
There are lots of possible contenders, but for me it has to be Terminators.
For my Dark Angel force I have 10 Knights, 5 regular, 10 Cataphractii, and various Deathwing characters such as ancients, apothecaries, captains as well as Terminator chaplain and Librarian. Hardly any of that sees play, because when I do take some they don't pull their weight at all and it's just not very fun.
Such a shame that this highly iconic line is so poor mechanically.
Assault Marines, Landspeeders (excluding characters), Dreadnoughts and Terminators are all units I used to enjoy fielding but now only see action out of nostalgia.
Some need only simple fixes: allow Landspeeders to move and shoot without penalty and give normal GW Dreadnoughts an invul save like the FW ones. Assault Marines and Terminators need more extensive overhauls.
Deathmarks. Cool looking models, nice lore, terrible, terrible rules that don't live up to their background. Best case scenario is that they will arrive, maybe kill that weak character with mortal wounds, and immediately get killed during your opponent's turn. Worst (and more often) case scenario is that they arrive, fail to kill that character, and then get wiped out anyway.
They don't even have the marking ability from 5th ed that gave them their name, DeathMARKS.
I still love the idea of a Silver Tide army, but Warriors just don't do enough to be worthwhile - and trying to buff them just feels like throwing good points after bad.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Deathmarks. Cool looking models, nice lore, terrible, terrible rules that don't live up to their background. Best case scenario is that they will arrive, maybe kill that weak character with mortal wounds, and immediately get killed during your opponent's turn.
Worst (and more often) case scenario is that they arrive, fail to kill that character, and then get wiped out anyway.
They don't even have the marking ability from 5th ed that gave them their name, DeathMARKS.
What the gak GW?
I forgot about Deathmarks. Yeah, I'll add them to my list, too.
Nevelon wrote: Chaplains. SMHQs have always had a revolving roster of who’s trash and who’s great. I think the last time the chaplain wasn’t at or near the bottom of that list was 3rd, where they were actually at/near the top.
Terminators have alway sucked, but I field them anyway. They are better today then they have been in a while.
Chaplains were pretty good in... 5th? I think. The one that introduced Demi- Companies who were led by either a captain or a chaplain. Chaplains took a huge hit this edition being out Special-ed by Captains and Masters.
Terminators have not always sucked. Just since 3rd Edition. In 2nd they were awesome. They had a 3+ on 2D6 armor save modified by weapon negatives and a Lascanon was only a -6, so they still saved ~25% of the time not that you saw that many Lascannon.
Saggitarii. Custodes riflemen would be great if they were Troops rather than Heavy Support and had serious weapons instead of being a glorified heavy bolter Devastator squad for three times the price.
Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Meh, i hope IA13 like dark MEch will be included aswell, then again negavolt cultists are also there.
Burna boyz for me. They look awesome and I use them in my kommandos squads whenever i can, but as a standalone unit, they just do too little while costing too much. I feel like the Mekboyz in the unit should actually do something in their respective Lootas/Burna units to actually make their weapons more reliable. Like have it so the Mekboy in the unit allows them to reroll their random number of shots, or to add +1 to the total for each one. That would actually justify their horrendous price tag and the fact that they don't do anything for them despite costing the same and not having the same weapon as the unit.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Isn't a Chaos Commissar really unfluffy? As Commissars are super loyal.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Isn't a Chaos Commissar really unfluffy? As Commissars are super loyal.
"The higher they rise the more catastrophal the fall. It's as if a dam bursts" Somewhere in a codex regarding traitor marines.
If marines can get disloyal a commisar can just aswell.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Isn't a Chaos Commissar really unfluffy? As Commissars are super loyal.
"The higher they rise the more catastrophal the fall. It's as if a dam bursts" Somewhere in a codex regarding traitor marines.
If marines can get disloyal a commisar can just aswell.
Honestly I'd expect a commissar to be more resistant than Marines seeing as they're basically Guard Chaplains. I would've guessed they'd all be trained as Chaos supporters from the start and be assigned to traitor guards later but there you go.
The space marine chaplain. I absolutely love their aesthetic and lore, but on the table top I've never found a reason to run them. I really hope they get the dark apostle treatment.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:
If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.
Isn't a Chaos Commissar really unfluffy? As Commissars are super loyal.
"The higher they rise the more catastrophal the fall. It's as if a dam bursts" Somewhere in a codex regarding traitor marines.
If marines can get disloyal a commisar can just aswell.
Honestly I'd expect a commissar to be more resistant than Marines seeing as they're basically Guard Chaplains. I would've guessed they'd all be trained as Chaos supporters from the start and be assigned to traitor guards later but there you go.
Yeah, the upbringing for those in the Schola Progenium seem to be specifically focused on being loyal to the Imperium and its ideals (particularly the Imperial Creed) as a whole, in contrast to most SM chapters who have their own distinct backgrounds and beliefs that is tied to their semi-autonomous nature. Not to say there isn't any hypno-indoctrination but the environments in which they are raised are quite different. The Commissar should be amongst the first to be killed if a regiment turns traitor, I would assume any chaos equivalents are created as a dark mirror of their counterparts like the Enforcers in the Siege of Vraks, rather than them willingly turning to Chaos. If they are turned, it seems like it would either be through mind control via psyker shenanigans or being possessed by a Daemonic entity. They're basically almost in the same league of the Sororitas.
Anrakyr the traveller. He is a necron infantry HQ character, who cant travel. He has no dynasty code, which means he cant be teleported onto the battlefield via monolith or night scythes, like other infantry characters can. He cant use the nephrekh stratagem to arrive on the battlefield on T2 or later as reinforcements, like any other nephrekh infantry can. He cant embark on a ghost ark (a necron transport), because only infantry characters with the matching dynasty code can. The only way he can go anywhere on the battlefield is with the deceivers grand illusion ability. Or foot slogging. Epic fail GW
Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?
Well, for one thing Primarchs were never indoctrinated against the true dangers of the warp and their ignorance was used against them. Furthermore, many who joined the rebellion initially were for reasons beyond Chaos (Angron because he hated the Emps and hated Horus less, Mortarion because he resented the Emperor for kill-stealing his dad and what he saw as hypocrisy regarding psykers) but became corrupted over time, typically unwillingly like Angron and Mortarion. All of which had to do with their upbringing, which the Emperor had no control over, unlike Commissars who are raised to do their one job.
Also, unlike Commissars, who know their place in Imperial society, the Primarchs were living demigods of the fledgling empire, second only to the Emperor. When so many of them have large egos, wielding unimaginable power and influence alongside their own independent ideas of how things should be run, of course its easier to subvert them compared to people who are literally raised to do their duty. Notice that the Primarchs who didn't turn were largely ones who put duty and loyalty before pride and ambition.
Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?
Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.
The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.
The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.
And, space marines get psycho indoctrinated and still Fall to Chaos, a pesky commisar is nothing against that.
Again a Commissar is more. A marine can ask himself "I'm so much better than humans, why should I die for them?" A Space Marine can easily make their own fortune by just going it alone. Space Marines don't even believe the Emperor is more than a particularly strong human in most cases. Space Marines have more reason than most to turn not less so a Commissar turning is definitely weirder.
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Obliterators, Heldrakes, Raptors. These were my solid VIPs for 5th and 7th edition. Now theyve been shelved and stored.
In my Death Guard collection, I would love to bring out some Blightlord and Deathshroud termies, but in nearly every list I write, those points would be better used on cheap chaff units. I have these models still sitting unassembled.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Obliterators, Heldrakes, Raptors. These were my solid VIPs for 5th and 7th edition. Now theyve been shelved and stored.
In my Death Guard collection, I would love to bring out some Blightlord and Deathshroud termies, but in nearly every list I write, those points would be better used on cheap chaff units. I have these models still sitting unassembled.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
I'm really don't buy any of that to be honest. Commissars are massively different to Astartes in purpose, training and origins.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
Right, which is why I said the few instances where they would go traitor is if they've been mind-controlled or been possessed by a daemonic entity. Doing it of their own volition? Unlikely to the point of it being practically unheard of.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?
I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?
I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.
Except that the warrior nuns didn't exist for 10'000 years.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
To clear up the example, the Commissar would not be raising a rebellion against the Schola Progenium—this is just the school system. They probably wouldn’t be raising a rebellion against the Schola Prefectus, either. The closest thing would be a Cadet Commissar somehow trying hands at a rebellion of his first regiment.
Right, which is why I said the few instances where they would go traitor is if they've been mind-controlled or been possessed by a daemonic entity. Doing it of their own volition? Unlikely to the point of it being practically unheard of.
This would pretty much be it. A Commissar would have to be forcefully turned in the same fashion that the guardsmen in one of the Eisenhorn books were (demonic branding of sorts), demonic possession, or overexposure to chaos—chaos taint has even turned Imperial Knights through the presence of enough tainted gore.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?
Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?
Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.
Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.
You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?
I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.
Except that the warrior nuns didn't exist for 10'000 years.
Two known traitors in 5'000 years is still way better. Even if we skip the Heresy there have been far FAR more than 4 Traitor Marines.
Ultimately half the original Space Marines turned traitor, over 50 full chapters post-heresy have, and innumerable rogue companies, squads, and individuals have turned likewise.
Any given Space Marine one happens to come across basically has a coinflip chance of being a Heretic.
Say what one will of mortal human troops, the Astartes appear to turn at startlingly high rates, rates that do not appear to match that of normal human troops
Can we PLEASE take the "could x turn traitor?" discussion to another thread? Pretty please? Before the mods have to step in and lock the thread.
Back on topic, I might actually mention the Imperial Knights that aren't Gallants or Crusaders or the Dominus ones. I'm talking about the Paladin, Errant, and Warden. None of these see play, and it's fairly obvious to most why that is. Really these three classes need some kind of bonus or something to make them worth taking instead of one of the specialized classes.
Lets see....I play competitive orkz so this might take a bit.
Killa Kanz: overpriced, completely lacking any meaningful dakka and suck in CC
DeffDreadz: Over priced, no dakka worth taking, are alright in CC but you have to 1: survive to get their and 2: pay through the nose for those handful of attacks.
Burnaboyz: At this point I don't know what to do with them. Over priced, basically worthless. If you can get them into range you are either in a vehicle or the luckiest SOB in existence.
Trukkz: Over priced, extremely fragile and once they drop off their cargo, which is rare as it is, they serve no purpose except to eat overwatch.
Nobz: Anything a nob can do a Boy can do for cheaper. In a unit by themselves they are a priority target due to their price and their relatively good CC abilities.
Warbikers: Over priced and under powered. You NEVER want them in CC because they are just boyz at 3x the price and their dakka, while impressive for 21pts is still rather lackluster all things considered. Worst of all, they are 4+ saves so Over charging Plasma instant kills them and allows for no saving throw. Thank god plasma isn't popular....
Deff Koptas: All the same problems as Warbikers exacerbated by being even more expensive.
All the new Buggies: Over priced and lacking a true purpose
Stompa: about 40-50% over priced, 3 times the cost of a knight while only being better then 1.
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Honestly I'd expect a commissar to be more resistant than Marines seeing as they're basically Guard Chaplains. I would've guessed they'd all be trained as Chaos supporters from the start and be assigned to traitor guards later but there you go.
Necron Monolith - even after CA 2018 it's still about 100 pts too expensive. 3+ save, no invul, no quantum shielding, crap firepower, slow, units can't disembark the turn it arrives, so it's a transport you can't get out of until turn 3.
Tomb Spyders - cool models, but poor rules and no focus in its purpose. It fixes stuff (D3), it builds scarabs (but hurts itself) and it can deny psykers (with an upgrade). Also the gun it can take is hilariously overpriced, 20 pts for a twin multilaser lol
The Eldar Falcon Grav Tank. To me they are the iconic Eldar model and they don't see play because of an overcrowded heavy support slot and being outclassed by Wave Serpents.
Wraithknights, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, the list goes on for Eldar units that are either in a weird spot or straight up bad.
Literally half of the Imperial Guard vehicle range, including Forge World.
FW gave us many beautiful kits, like the Macharius, Avenger, Marauder, Medusa, Salamander, Griffon, Valdor, Taurosii and more, but FW being FW, the rules are either bad or totally OP. For the Guard vehicles, it's the former. The fact the models are very pricey is overlooked. If they were good (or at least reasonably decent) rule-wise too, people would buy them more. I personally bought the Macharius only because it's the sexiest tank model GW ever produced.
How many people don't use units because they are just slightly below the optimal line? This seems to me to be extremely prevalent. I understand that if a unit is just awful, it won't get used, but there are a lot of units listed that can be viable and may synergize in a specific list even though they may sit slightly below the optimal line. I do feel people should play more with these units and turn off the "internet says they're bad" waves for awhile.
I wish GW would make Grey Knight termintors valid to take. I don't think many people use them. Strikes get more shots and more models for more or less the same points, paladins give 3W and better stats and interceptors are faster strikes that cost less too. Considering how iconic termintors are suppose to be for Grey Knights, they are a bit like tacticals, if tacticals were 40pts each.
Karol wrote: I wish GW would make Grey Knight termintors valid to take. I don't think many people use them. Strikes get more shots and more models for more or less the same points, paladins give 3W and better stats and interceptors are faster strikes that cost less too. Considering how iconic termintors are suppose to be for Grey Knights, they are a bit like tacticals, if tacticals were 40pts each.
Seconded. That being said, I think if they simply made the psybolt ammo a DW-esque ammo selection, they would instantly begin appearing in lists. A Psychic terminator squad with powerful shooting and 3w a pop? Somewhere between a stock terminator and a custodes.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
1) you only get 3 per Boy Mob, maximum (1 per 10 models). So, sure, he ain't got to move. But his 9 buddies *do*. And they, most likely, will want to Advance as well. If you're Da Jumping the Mob, the extra 18" isn't gonna help you anyway.
2) you just spent 5 pts to get 0.4 extra hits per shooting phase, while the increase in S can make a slightly higher difference (depending on the target, against anything between 5 and 7T, they'll wound the same). I specifically don't mention the extra 18", because even with maximum Big Shootaz in your Mob, you're only getting 9 S5 AP- D1 shots at BS 5+. That's 3 hits, 2 Wounds against T4, and approximately 1.7 damage against 6+ Saves. Congratulations, you just spent 15 pts to take out less than 2 Boyz per turn. Alternatively, you can spend those 15 pts on 2 more Boyz, and you'll actually do about the same damage (9 shots at S5 vs 10 shots at S4).
3) Boyz are squishy. A good list will be able to wipe a full Boy Mob per turn with relative ease. Marines are far less squishy.
If you want to throw a wrench into that comparisson compare to Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters. BS4 , Assault Heavy Bolter with 24" range, and every model in the unit can get one. 5 points per. Base model is more expensive, though with a Prime you boost them to BS 3+.
But in general, comparing weapons prices across armies isn't very helpful, as the context of a choice within an army is crucial to the value of a weapon.
Overall Heavy Bolters suffer from another problem, which is that the unit purchasing them tends to have a bunch of other options. For a Tac Squad, they have 6 Heavy weapon options to go in that slot, and it's a valuable slot. If youre buying a 5- man squad, it's competing against all the special weapons, too. The Heavy Bolter doesn't really compete well against the other options.
"Less fragile" isn't relevant in context. Sure Marines are harder to kill than Ork Boys, but it's the difference between paper and damp paper, and they're significantly more expensive.
A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.
Honestly, I don't know enough about Marines to refute you, so I'll just reiterate Insectum's point: comparing across armies never really goes well. For example, and Ork Power Fist Equivalent (the Power Klaw) costs 13 pts. I'm probably not current on Marine prices, but last I checked a Power Fist was 9 pts for you guys.
A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.
Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.
Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.
A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.
Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.
Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.
Base points for Intercessors is 85 for the min 5-man squad. Tacs are 65 with no upgrades, so it's 20 points. In practice it's closer though, because why even field Tacs if you're not going to take a heavy or special on the squad?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: Honestly, I don't know enough about Marines to refute you, so I'll just reiterate Insectum's point: comparing across armies never really goes well. For example, and Ork Power Fist Equivalent (the Power Klaw) costs 13 pts. I'm probably not current on Marine prices, but last I checked a Power Fist was 9 pts for you guys.
And a Nob has what, 4 attacks? A Marine sergeant only has 2.
Although that does point up the oddness of set costs for weapons over a whole faction. A Power Fist costs the same on a tac serg with 2 attacks, a intercessor serg with 3, and (iirc) a Primaris Captain with 5.
A Nob has 3 attacks, but that kinda just makes my point. GW has a habit of pricing the same weapon differently based on how well the Faction can use it. We got cheaper ranged weapons, you got cheaper CC weapons.
A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.
Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.
Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.
Base points for Intercessors is 85 for the min 5-man squad. Tacs are 65 with no upgrades, so it's 20 points. In practice it's closer though, because why even field Tacs if you're not going to take a heavy or special on the squad?
Hmm, that's more than I thought. When you can get a Las Tac for 90, double Plas for 87 or a Plasma Cannon for 81 the Intercessos are less interesting unless you're looking for resilience against small arms.
Swooping hawks take the top spot followed by Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, and Falcons.
Hawks... Awesome models and concept - Compared to IG lasgunners are laughable... their MW output is very gimmicky and does nothing really...
Scorpions Amazing models - should really have the infiltrate rule as well as DS to give them the options maybe another attack on the charge wouldn't hurt..
Fire Dragons - really cool models but are just... glorified storm guardians. I would argue a storm guardian unit with 2 fusion is actually better because you can give them celestial shield and discipline of black guardians and they provide CP...
Falcons are just so much worse serpents..
To be honest most of the codex is solid. However, we suffer as we are way too overpriced because interaction with ynnari in the past. They are gone as we knew them but the point hikes remained.. The good units we have are just so much more point efficient and betetr youre gimping yourself not taking them.(looking at you crimson hunters/hemlocks)
Honerable mention - Autarch with wings... Why take autarch with wings where the bike is only like 10 points more and the foot autarch can be given falochus wing relic..
I would love to bring storm talons. I know that is controversial but imao the model is gorgeous. The futuristic attack hover-copter is kinda unique in the game.
Also the lack of a viable cheap ground attack flier makes a SM air wing detachment not viable. The storm raven is too expensive to bring 3 and the stormhawk is quite decent when shooting units with the fly keyword but meh otherwise, is kinda is situational enough to not be able to justify to bring 2 or more.
Unfortunately either they are far over-costed or the datasheet needs to be tweak to make it worth. Internal balance wise and external balance wise both are a brainac no go.
At the end of the day the fact that the stormtalon is a no go makes unviable a whole army detachment chart in all the SM codexes that they don't have specific fliers (SW, DW and DA)
psipso wrote: I would love to bring storm talons. I know that is controversial but imao the model is gorgeous. The futuristic attack hover-copter is kinda unique in the game.
Also the lack of a viable cheap ground attack flier makes a SM air wing detachment not viable. The storm raven is too expensive to bring 3 and the stormhawk is quite decent when shooting units with the fly keyword but meh otherwise, is kinda is situational enough to not be able to justify to bring 2 or more.
Unfortunately either they are far over-costed or the datasheet needs to be tweak to make it worth. Internal balance wise and external balance wise both are a brainac no go.
At the end of the day the fact that the stormtalon is a no go makes unviable a whole army detachment chart in all the SM codexes that they don't have specific fliers (SW, DW and DA)
The Storm Talon is a pretty model, but personally I like the Storm Raven better. If your group prefers smaller games there's the option to throw a Vanguard detachment (Captain, two 5-man vet squads, and a dread) in a Storm Raven with a Storm Talon in support for just under 1000 points. It looks awesome, it's amazingly thematic, it's only two drops so you'll usually get the bonus to the all-important "who goes first" roll, and it's terrible on the table.
I really wish I could play that list and not feel like I'd deliberately tazered myself in the bollox.
For Necrons, Canoptek Spyders. They're slow, fragile, and while they have some decent utility they pay through the nose for it. D3 damage on the claws are nice, but they barely ever make it into melee as is, and the low number of attacks and weapon skill means they perform about as well as a Veteran Sergeant with a powerfist.
At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.
Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With 3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.
As for better units as troops:
Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.
Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS
Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.
Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.
All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.
Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.
Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.
For elite shooting/Firepower
For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.
Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.
This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.
I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.
The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.
I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.
Elbows wrote: Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.
I'm sure they'll celebrate when said codex actually materialises.
At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.
Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With 3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.
As for better units as troops:
Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.
Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS
Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.
Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.
All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.
Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.
Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.
For elite shooting/Firepower
For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.
Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.
This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.
I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.
The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.
I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.
Man im sorry to hear warriors are that bad. Reason i never see them in bat reps i guess. One of my fav kits. Are spine fists a thing still? Cant remember last time i saw anything other than stealers on the board. Stealers were always good even back in my day but used to be more expensive and no invuln.
I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.
The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.
I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.
Sicarian Ruststalkers
After CA they are cheap for 14 points and still useless.
They lost movement, their charge bonus, LD was once higher than SM and is now on guard level, 5+++ gone, no grenades, no increased lethality after one turn of combat.
Weapons are supposed to sync to your armor and cut it like butter which had AP2 and auto wounding on 2 if I remember correctly after one turn, first turn only on 6+.
Now they have AP 0 and deal a MW on 6, but Multidamage is now the norm so they die as easily as a 7points ranger.
Half the Necron codex.. Some other stuff that hasn't been mentioned:
Praetorians - give them a way to have Dynasty benefits. Perhaps universal Dynasty KW, or benefit from your detachment and let them be universally targetable for dynasty abilities. And slice their points a few more notches.
Flayed Ones - give them back their 4th attack and make them troops.
Nightscythe - give them QS or an invul. Let them pick up units on the battlefield like a transport.
Obelisk - Just give it anything to make it worthwhile.
Tomb stalker/sentinel - make them more survivable
Canoptek Acanthrites - less of a glass cannon. An invul perhaps? Make their meltas S8 or +1 to wound so they at least have the cannon in "glass cannon"
Anrakyr the Traveller - Make him transportable the usual Necron ways.
Insectum7 wrote: I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.
The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.
I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.
owwwwhhh dont say awesome stuff like that. My inner child wants to get a whole nid army now!
Insectum7 wrote: I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.
The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.
I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.
owwwwhhh dont say awesome stuff like that. My inner child wants to get a whole nid army now!
Haha, it is awesome. But I can't recommend it with a clear conscience. It was pretty expensive, and you never know what will happen to the unit in the future. Skew builds are almost never a good investment from a gaimg perspective.
That said, every time I field it I get a big, stupid grin on my face though.
Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?
Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.
The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.
The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.
Bullocks on the whole Commissars not being able to fall tripe (not directed at you persay, quoted poster). Everything and everyone can turn. Some just need more time in the oven than others.
As for units.
Warp Talons.
Raptors (outside of nightlords).
Terminators (big surprise).
Mutilators.
Hel Turkey (from champ to chump in one edition).
HelBrutes (FW ones are so much better) from the codex.
Bike Squads.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.
So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.
Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.
So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.
Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.
Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?
It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?
The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...
Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.
I don't think Boyz need a buff at all. I *do* wish there was a reason to actually take Big Shoota and Rokkit Boyz, though. At the end of the day, you're spending extra points and not getting a whole lot in return for the investment. I feel like they coulda just... not included that option and the end result would have been the same.
Kinda wish Boyz were still 6ppm, of course, but at 7 they ain't really overpriced either. Does tend to get expensive once you hit that third mob though.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.
So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.
Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.
Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?
It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?
The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...
Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.
SemperMortis and I got our wires crossed just a bit. I asked why a unit with a 36" gun would be advancing in a way that didn't make it obvious that I genuinely didn't know. There isn't a dedicated Ork player in my local group so as far as I knew Orks were still doing the "despite the fluff we're actually really good shooting army" thing.
Then I pointed out how good that gun would be in a Marine army as a dig at how bad Marines are right now specifically because Ork players consider it a bad weapon. If a trash tier Ork weapon would be good in a Marine army how bad does that make the Marine weapon options look? Semper didn't catch that and defended why he thinks the Big Shoota is a bad weapon. I see no reason to argue since he answered the question I had and kinda supported my point about Marines in the process.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.
So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.
Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.
Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?
It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?
The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...
Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.
Point of this thread "Units you Like but that don't see Action" I modified that to be Models since there isn't a Big Shoota unit as much as a model. I LOVE how the model looks but I never take them because they are utter trash. Adding to that, they would have a purpose in a mob if they weren't worse across the board then simply adding more shoota boyz. Being able to plop a mob of 10 boyz with a Big Shoota onto an objective and letting them camp out would be a useful tactic, especially if they allowed you to take all 3 heavy weapons without taking the additional 20 boyz.
On the subject of Boyz being good...Yes they are ok, they are absolutely not the strongest troop choice in the game by a long shot, that title is firmly held by Imperial Guard infantry squads, there are also a few other troop choices I would argue are either as good or better then boyz.
SemperMortis and I got our wires crossed just a bit. I asked why a unit with a 36" gun would be advancing in a way that didn't make it obvious that I genuinely didn't know. There isn't a dedicated Ork player in my local group so as far as I knew Orks were still doing the "despite the fluff we're actually really good shooting army" thing.
Then I pointed out how good that gun would be in a Marine army as a dig at how bad Marines are right now specifically because Ork players consider it a bad weapon. If a trash tier Ork weapon would be good in a Marine army how bad does that make the Marine weapon options look? Semper didn't catch that and defended why he thinks the Big Shoota is a bad weapon. I see no reason to argue since he answered the question I had and kinda supported my point about Marines in the process.
I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.
I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?
The forgeworld legio custodes galatus contemptor dread. Such a cool model, but it unfortunately falls short compared to the achillus and especially the telemon on the tabletop.
SemperMortis wrote: Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?
(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)
Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.
Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)
Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.
So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.
Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.
Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better... Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?
It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?
The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff! Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...
Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.
Point of this thread "Units you Like but that don't see Action" I modified that to be Models since there isn't a Big Shoota unit as much as a model. I LOVE how the model looks but I never take them because they are utter trash. Adding to that, they would have a purpose in a mob if they weren't worse across the board then simply adding more shoota boyz. Being able to plop a mob of 10 boyz with a Big Shoota onto an objective and letting them camp out would be a useful tactic, especially if they allowed you to take all 3 heavy weapons without taking the additional 20 boyz.
On the subject of Boyz being good...Yes they are ok, they are absolutely not the strongest troop choice in the game by a long shot, that title is firmly held by Imperial Guard infantry squads, there are also a few other troop choices I would argue are either as good or better then boyz.
SemperMortis and I got our wires crossed just a bit. I asked why a unit with a 36" gun would be advancing in a way that didn't make it obvious that I genuinely didn't know. There isn't a dedicated Ork player in my local group so as far as I knew Orks were still doing the "despite the fluff we're actually really good shooting army" thing.
Then I pointed out how good that gun would be in a Marine army as a dig at how bad Marines are right now specifically because Ork players consider it a bad weapon. If a trash tier Ork weapon would be good in a Marine army how bad does that make the Marine weapon options look? Semper didn't catch that and defended why he thinks the Big Shoota is a bad weapon. I see no reason to argue since he answered the question I had and kinda supported my point about Marines in the process.
I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.
I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?
Understood. Its imiliar to the problem I have with fusion guns on storm guardians. Should a 12" gun goin otn a T3 5+ infantry model cost nearly double the price of the infantry model? I dont think so... If you put it on a bs2 biker warlord, the weapon has a totaly different value as you will actualy get to use it. Unfortunately any fix in order to determine gear costs in relation to the unit said gear is going on, would just create more bloat and rules and people seem to hate rules...Then again if you just had different point values for option in the individual codex entries rather than a long 2 page unwieldly list of weapons and their points that would be a fix IMO. But what do I know...
I think the rules team have been gravitating towards having less individualism and more samesy wholesale units for purposes of easier balance. For example if a Gun A on a specific model is casuing problems resulting in imbalance, then GW knee jerks jack up the price of Gun A affecting all the other entries in the codex, rather than deal with the entry that is making the gun too efficient.
Well that went off track lol. So how about those raptors eh ? I would love to see more of them on the table.
SemperMortis wrote: I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.
I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?
The way you answered came across as defensive (that's how I read it at least, and how Argive seems to have read it as well), I figured there had to be a misunderstanding there somewhere because why get defensive if I'm not disagreeing on whether the Big Shoota is a bad weapon? Easy mistake for either of us to make though, we still haven't got a comprehensive enough set of punctuation marks despite English having been a tonal language for centuries.
On the other question, it would entirely depend on what I wanted the squad to do. On a squad I expect to close with the enemy yes the Stormbolter is better. On a squad that I expect to try to avoid melee then it's only 10 S4s (Bolter Drill only works when stationary) vs 6 S5s with enough range to play keep-away with fast melee units. The Big Shoota would be better there.
In general out of all the places I can take a Stormbolter on Marines there are quite a few where I'd spend the extra 3 points for a Big Shoota instead if I had the option.
SemperMortis wrote: I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.
I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?
The way you answered came across as defensive (that's how I read it at least, and how Argive seems to have read it as well), I figured there had to be a misunderstanding there somewhere because why get defensive if I'm not disagreeing on whether the Big Shoota is a bad weapon? Easy mistake for either of us to make though, we still haven't got a comprehensive enough set of punctuation marks despite English having been a tonal language for centuries.
On the other question, it would entirely depend on what I wanted the squad to do. On a squad I expect to close with the enemy yes the Stormbolter is better. On a squad that I expect to try to avoid melee then it's only 10 S4s (Bolter Drill only works when stationary) vs 6 S5s with enough range to play keep-away with fast melee units. The Big Shoota would be better there.
In general out of all the places I can take a Stormbolter on Marines there are quite a few where I'd spend the extra 3 points for a Big Shoota instead if I had the option.
True, but in the example you give you want to keep the entire unit out of combat which makes sense, so the extra 12' of range is really important and since you can take 5 Marines, (1 sgt and 1 heavy weapon) you would have fairly good ratio's with that, for Orkz though you have to take 10 boyz to unlock 1 heavy weapon and their guns at best are 18' so dropping 10 orkz off somewhere to babysit a single Big Shoota, or 20 to babysit 2 doesn't make much sense. On top of that, Ork boyz only really excel in close combat so they want to be advancing the whole time which basically makes Big Shoota boyz useless.
On a related note, the only time I actually take Big shoota's anymore at all is in Min/max Kommando squads and only in fluffy games. dropping off 3 squads of 5 Kommandos with 2 Big shootas each is funny. Leaving them on an objective is ....slightly annoying, not exactly hard to get rid of still since even in cover they only have a 4+ save and morale becomes an issue.
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They should be one of the best AT units in the game, or at least one of the best for their price. In a galaxy full of energy based AT weapons, they are one of the few purely kinetic penetrators in the game. They are just bad, and have been for a long time. They used to be ok with FW rules and their dreaded beasthunter shells, but that was a long time ago.
At least you can use the models for the relic cannon I guess.
Kroot. I loved the idea of Kroot mercenaries and tried to field some alongside my Guard but they just melt away so easily under bolter fire and never really did anything.
Brotherjulian wrote: Kroot. I loved the idea of Kroot mercenaries and tried to field some alongside my Guard but they just melt away so easily under bolter fire and never really did anything.
Yeah, they're in a really tough spot this edition. Not cheap enough to really be an effective screen, not tough or scary enough in melee to be an actual deterrent to enemy CC units, and not enough dakka to be skirmishers. There really should be more synergy between the shaper and regular Kroot Carnivore squads, I feel GW initially wanted to expand on Tau auxiliaries, but ended up going the "safe" route of BIGGER MECHS instead.
Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.
BUUUT they're squishy, 5 points per model and outshone by Termagants in so many ways it hurts. CC wise Genestealers outshine them by far per point and have access to so much more support, Terms shoot and are cheap to swarm in bodies and other cheap units make them look awful (Hell, the only thing they kinda beat in Stormguardians but that's like beating Stevie Wonder at darts, no one is going to give you a damn award!)
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.
Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.
At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.
Aspect Warriors, beyond the OP deathstar-du-jour (Was Spectres, then Reapers, then Spears).
Dire Avengers are one of my favorite units.
Swooping Hawks are so much fun and look great (especially if you use Scourge feathered wings for your Exarch)!
Scorpions are scads of fun, if you can get them into something they can bully.
Banshees are a great disruption unit. And charging first with Banshees then everyone else (even the Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks) is just so... great.
3-man Spear teams don't see much use, but are a super fast skirmish unit - can't hold a line, won't crack a CC threat, but can hit where they want when they want.
Spectres are overcosted, but have some nasty guns and attract a lot of ineffective firepower.
Fire Dragons are always good for when some hard target must die.
And Asurmen and the center of the force... Overcosted but so much fun.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.
Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.
At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.
Oh same I agree, I still field my hormas and warriors. Nothing looks quite as good as 3 carnifexs surrounded by over 90 gaunts!
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.
Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.
At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.
Oh same I agree, I still field my hormas and warriors. Nothing looks quite as good as 3 carnifexs surrounded by over 90 gaunts!
I wish my choice had worked out as well for me. I have a very hard time putting my Centurions in the field, they're sinfully overcosted.
Stompa - GW has kept it extremely inefficient in points to the point that for several editions no wit is in the running for most overcosted unit in the game. currently a stompa can lose to a 350 point imperial knight. and it basically cannot beat a castellan or valliant both of which cost less than a stompa.
legion of the damned - super cool models, they are really awesome lore wise but on the tabletop they have never managed to really be worth it.
nob bikers - in 5th edition they were strong but mostly due to the exploitation of wound shenanigins. GW decided they need to for some reason continue to pay a pennance for that for 3 editions now being overcosted
ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost.
drop pods - i was at first glad they were dead as they have been good for 3 editions now, but GW overcosted them by so much outside a few people trying them (and never using them again) I never see them in 8th. I even tried them and realized just how much of a point sink it is for a deep strike. the previous 35 poitns was to cheap, but 85 is def to much since it jsut sits there now with a storm bolter after droppign off a unit. probably worth around 50 points for the pod then 2 for the stormbolter which should be optional.
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SemperMortis wrote: Lets see....I play competitive orkz so this might take a bit.
Killa Kanz: overpriced, completely lacking any meaningful dakka and suck in CC
DeffDreadz: Over priced, no dakka worth taking, are alright in CC but you have to 1: survive to get their and 2: pay through the nose for those handful of attacks.
Burnaboyz: At this point I don't know what to do with them. Over priced, basically worthless. If you can get them into range you are either in a vehicle or the luckiest SOB in existence.
Trukkz: Over priced, extremely fragile and once they drop off their cargo, which is rare as it is, they serve no purpose except to eat overwatch.
Nobz: Anything a nob can do a Boy can do for cheaper. In a unit by themselves they are a priority target due to their price and their relatively good CC abilities.
Warbikers: Over priced and under powered. You NEVER want them in CC because they are just boyz at 3x the price and their dakka, while impressive for 21pts is still rather lackluster all things considered. Worst of all, they are 4+ saves so Over charging Plasma instant kills them and allows for no saving throw. Thank god plasma isn't popular....
Deff Koptas: All the same problems as Warbikers exacerbated by being even more expensive.
All the new Buggies: Over priced and lacking a true purpose
Stompa: about 40-50% over priced, 3 times the cost of a knight while only being better then 1.
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.
I'll leave it there for now.
dual choppa nobz are one of the best units on the codex. mix in a few big choppas, if you haev points to spare consider giving the boss nob a power claw but not required.
nobz vs boys add a 4+ armor save, 1w, +1str, +1 attack all for twice the cost of a boy (5 nobz 70 vs 10 boys 70) dual choppas means you lose shooting (which was terrible anyway) but onyl lose 1 attack vs 2 boys but at Strength 5 meaning wounding most infantry on 3's and vehicles on 5's and the bonus of 4+ means they last longer.
throw multiple units in the same transport and be sure o throw an ammo runt to eat expolosive casualties/wounds (oh no you overcharged plasma and killed my... ammo runt)
25 would be way to low. heck at 35 they were always to good for what they did. I just think GW overcorrected in their adjustment. being able to pop in and combi melta a thing down with sternguard is def worth ~50 point cost to entry imo
The Leman Russ Vanquisher/Exterminator/Eradicator. I like the looks and the general fluff idea behind each, but they cannot perform that way in the crunch. Would be nice, if the Exterminator would really be faster or in any way more effective against flyers than the other russes.
For similar reasons: the Stygies Tank Destroyer and Demolisher as well as the Valdor.
stroller wrote: Doesn't apply. I like this model. I'm going to play it. Oversimple maybe but I play for fun, and to enjoy, and cool models are, for me, part of that.
G00fySmiley wrote: ...ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost...
Marine bikes are down to 23 points and they get Stable Platform as far as Bolter Drill is concerned, I'd say they're actually not in a terrible spot. Four Bolter shots isn't great, but they're more points efficient than a lot of other things in the Marine codex and they can do it on the move.
G00fySmiley wrote: ...ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost...
Marine bikes are down to 23 points and they get Stable Platform as far as Bolter Drill is concerned, I'd say they're actually not in a terrible spot. Four Bolter shots isn't great, but they're more points efficient than a lot of other things in the Marine codex and they can do it on the move.
yea, ork bikes are not terrible either anymore but neither is what I would call good honestly I think 20 points a bike is about right. At 20 each they might see the occasional placement on a competitive list, for space marines +1 T +1W and extra bolter for ~160% the cost of a tac marine (which also needs adjusting but thats another topic altogether)
My most favorite HQ models are equipped with twin lightning claws. They look so badass, but I would always want a combi weapon over that second claw on the tabletop, and Damage 1 melee isnt that great.
Nightlord1987 wrote: My most favorite HQ models are equipped with twin lightning claws. They look so badass, but I would always want a combi weapon over that second claw on the tabletop, and Damage 1 melee isnt that great.
I personally never understood the pricetag of the pair of claws.
Yeah sure you can reroll wounds but is that worth that much?
Especially considering a combi-bolter is 2 a combiplas 11 pts...
Heck even a mace or sword for 4 or a chainaxe for 1 pts seem like a better Investment.
I'm partial to Phoenix Lords and their corresponding Aspects. This includes Drazhar and Incubi.
I really hope when GW comes out with new models for the Craftworlds they find a way to allow shrine oriented lists to be viable. They then expand Drazhar and Incubi in some fashion to make lists based off them as well.
Imagine if they found some way to make generic aspect themed vehicles and such with each having a unique weapon and rule based off the shrine they chose. Aspect themed wraithguard and wraithlords for some heavy weapon support.
Just things like that.
But that's basically what I want. a Scorpion and/or Incubi themed list. You could do it with the old DE book because incubi wargear was available to leaders and such. Reallly miss those days.
Nightlord1987 wrote: My most favorite HQ models are equipped with twin lightning claws. They look so badass, but I would always want a combi weapon over that second claw on the tabletop, and Damage 1 melee isnt that great.
I personally never understood the pricetag of the pair of claws.
Yeah sure you can reroll wounds but is that worth that much?
Especially considering a combi-bolter is 2 a combiplas 11 pts...
Heck even a mace or sword for 4 or a chainaxe for 1 pts seem like a better Investment.
That's because they are a better investment. A single claw picks up the reroll to wound but loses AP, that's comparable to a Power Axe maybe. 5 points, tops. The pair gives an extra attack, chain swords do that for free. An extra claw attack is probably worth a point or two though.
On topic: I like the heavy version of Hellblasters, but I couldn't justify building a squad of them.
Martel732 wrote: They were not too good at 35. Thats a fallacy. Now in 8th, theres nothing even worth putting in them. I can tell you i wouldnt use them at 25.
Melta is terrible in 8th. Its not worth anything to me to try to mobilize and overcosted unit with melta.
I might not even use them if they were free because the units that go in them are so bad.
For ~15 pts I'll use them as SB platform and little antiDS spot. Probably will put it in my deployment turn1 instead of putting it into reserve.
Huron black heart wrote: Warp Talons, one of Chaos' best looking units. Even as standard raptors they're not very good on the table.
Warp Talons are useful. Like other units that have a specific purpose, it is quite hard to judge them solely on their stat line. But generally even THIS Night Lord player doesn't use them even though I sorely always want to.
Huron black heart wrote: Warp Talons, one of Chaos' best looking units. Even as standard raptors they're not very good on the table.
Warp Talons CAN be good, but you really have to build around them. Host Raptorial with a Tip of the Spear Lord is the minimum, and you ideally want them to be Khorne, have a Herald of Khorne to deepstrike alongside them for the charge reroll and have them be Black Legion or World Eaters for the extra attack on the charge (BL only with the stratagem).
Anyway, for me it's Thunderwolf Cavalry that's not a Lord on Wolf. Just too expensive for what they do.
dual choppa nobz are one of the best units on the codex. mix in a few big choppas, if you haev points to spare consider giving the boss nob a power claw but not required.
nobz vs boys add a 4+ armor save, 1w, +1str, +1 attack all for twice the cost of a boy (5 nobz 70 vs 10 boys 70) dual choppas means you lose shooting (which was terrible anyway) but onyl lose 1 attack vs 2 boys but at Strength 5 meaning wounding most infantry on 3's and vehicles on 5's and the bonus of 4+ means they last longer.
throw multiple units in the same transport and be sure o throw an ammo runt to eat expolosive casualties/wounds (oh no you overcharged plasma and killed my... ammo runt)
5 Dual Choppa nobz are as expensive as 10 boyz, very true. Of course the difference is that the +1 wound and 4+ armor means exactly nothing against so many competitive weapons that the enemy can just kill them AS easily as regular boyz when they are left in the open which means you need a transport, and Orkz do not have a single transport worth its cost. A trukk is so flimsy at its current points value and lacks any purpose after unloading its cargo and eating overwatch; A battlewagon on the other hand is just bad. So you have to take a unit which is roughly as effective as Boyz at low model count (When you go to 10 nobz the boyz get 20 boyz which means +1 attack, so instead of 60 attacks they get 80) but is nowhere near as durable due to multi damage weapons and suddenly you now have to take an expensive transport that doesn't have any real shooting capability and is borderline useless in CC except to eat overwatch. So those nobz are now hamstrung by a 60+ pt increase due to the need for a transport.
dual choppa nobz are one of the best units on the codex. mix in a few big choppas, if you haev points to spare consider giving the boss nob a power claw but not required.
nobz vs boys add a 4+ armor save, 1w, +1str, +1 attack all for twice the cost of a boy (5 nobz 70 vs 10 boys 70) dual choppas means you lose shooting (which was terrible anyway) but onyl lose 1 attack vs 2 boys but at Strength 5 meaning wounding most infantry on 3's and vehicles on 5's and the bonus of 4+ means they last longer.
throw multiple units in the same transport and be sure o throw an ammo runt to eat expolosive casualties/wounds (oh no you overcharged plasma and killed my... ammo runt)
5 Dual Choppa nobz are as expensive as 10 boyz, very true. Of course the difference is that the +1 wound and 4+ armor means exactly nothing against so many competitive weapons that the enemy can just kill them AS easily as regular boyz when they are left in the open which means you need a transport, and Orkz do not have a single transport worth its cost. A trukk is so flimsy at its current points value and lacks any purpose after unloading its cargo and eating overwatch; A battlewagon on the other hand is just bad. So you have to take a unit which is roughly as effective as Boyz at low model count (When you go to 10 nobz the boyz get 20 boyz which means +1 attack, so instead of 60 attacks they get 80) but is nowhere near as durable due to multi damage weapons and suddenly you now have to take an expensive transport that doesn't have any real shooting capability and is borderline useless in CC except to eat overwatch. So those nobz are now hamstrung by a 60+ pt increase due to the need for a transport.
Nobz are good on paper....that is about it.
Tellyporta and Da Jump? Nobz also have the advantage that they have less bodies and thus have an easier time to get everyone stuck in CC. Although that can also be a disadvantage if you want to make a wide multi-charge. Overall I'd say that the biggest disadvantage Nobz have is that they don't generate nearly as much CP as Boyz do, which is a quite significant thing in an army as CP hungry as Orks.
Tellyporta and Da Jump also relies on a 9' charge unless you are Evil Sunz. Tellyporta is also 2CP and Da Jump can only be used once a turn. So in essence you are wasting 2CP for a minimum squad of nobz to accomplish what a squad of boyz can do, OR you are tying up the Weirdboy for 1 turn to get 5 nobz into charge range and hoping they get in, because if they don't they are boned.
Realistically there is no happy middle ground and jumping or teleporting nobz doesn't make sense because its expensive and/or it is risky because if they fail their charge they are left exposed and in the open.
