Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/05 23:52:38


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


Reading all the „OldMarines get replaced by Primaris“ threads on various 40 related forums I asked myself what do Primaris „need“ to be a „viable“ army (models-wise not rules-wise).

Lets say Oldmarines DO get replaced. What models are „missing“ for a fluffy/TAC Primaris list?
Its definitely not Lieutenants...

I‘d say a transport or two and one/two more kind of Dreads. Then ultimately a dedicated assault CC unit and expand on the Gravis armour dudes.
Just give the regular troops and other units one/two more customization possibilities (Plasma weapons, Lascanons, Flamers etc.)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/05 23:59:10


Post by: BrianDavion


a melee option, and veterns.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 00:14:13


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Melee, flyers, flyer defense, drop pods and any kind of real fast attack vehicle.

and until the new hover cawlino drops a cost efficient transport.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 00:17:37


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


HoundsofDemos wrote:
Melee, flyers, flyer defense, drop pods and any kind of real fast attack vehicle.

and until the new hover cawlino drops a cost efficient transport.


A yes flyers! Add that to my list.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 00:20:16


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Reading all the „OldMarines get replaced by Primaris“ threads on various 40 related forums I asked myself what do Primaris „need“ to be a „viable“ army (models-wise not rules-wise).

Lets say Oldmarines DO get replaced. What models are „missing“ for a fluffy/TAC Primaris list?
Its definitely not Lieutenants...

I‘d say a transport or two and one/two more kind of Dreads. Then ultimately a dedicated assault CC unit and expand on the Gravis armour dudes.
Just give the regular troops and other units one/two more customization possibilities (Plasma weapons, Lascanons, Flamers etc.)


A MBT tank in the ~150 point range, a Lascannon/missile unit, an artillery unit, a close assault unit.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 00:42:33


Post by: BrianDavion


the redemptor dreadnought is about 150 points so I guess it can fill the "150 point MBT" role alright.

artillery unit though yeah thats not a bad point, a "repulsor whirlwind" could be intreasting


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 00:45:39


Post by: Tokhuah


In terms of the actual model I would like to see anatomically correct Primaris.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 01:22:01


Post by: Lemondish


 Tokhuah wrote:
In terms of the actual model I would like to see anatomically correct Primaris.


I'd like to see anatomically correct Terminators myself.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 02:45:52


Post by: BrianDavion


... WHHHHY!


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 05:46:21


Post by: Breton


They lack a ton of vehicles - non-hybrid tanks and transports. Artillery, Techmarines, Mobility, especially on close combat. (I'd like to make my predition now - Reivers will be able to use Grapple hooks and grav chutes as a jump pack in future editions. They'll use the grapple hook to yank themselves 12 inches forwards while being anti-grav'ed by the chutes.)

"Special/Heavy" Weapons other than Plasma. The special/Heavy Weapons all seem to trace back to one of four "Elements" - Las, Plas, Melta, Grav - that every expansion feels like it favors one of those elements. Primaris are screwed in 9th Ed when Plasma takes a downturn and they can't get Melta or Grav.

I think Gravis is the replacement for Terminators as they're usually a Power Fist, plus a short ranged dakka gun.

I don't think the Primaris get bikes. I think they get something, but it's not bikes. Maybe jetbikes, maybe grav chariots, maybe something else. They'll get something else that makes them calvarly/bikers but it won't be a bike - Think He Man and his Sky Sled, or Wily Kit and Wily Kat and their sky surfers. Or the Silver Surfer. I also wouldn't focus on an idea of one bike-ish thing, one occupant. I wouldn't be surprised to see a longer bike-ish thing with a driver and a rear facing gunner like an SBD Dauntless - that could be the landspeeder replacement too. I don't see them being side by side so they're not so obvious.

They need... a path forward for the Black Templar chapter and their crusader squads. 10 Intercessors and 10 Infiltrators doesn't have the same feel.

They need to kill off and then replace the special characters who don't fit in a Primaris theme'd army, and cross the Primaris Rubicon with the ones that do. For example, Shrike with his jump pack and twin lighting claws doesn't strike me as likely to survive the procedure (poor guy, he just got promoted), while Pedro Kantor with what basically ammounts to a Bolt Storm Gauntlet already is pretty likely. Tiggy could go either way. Cassius is a goner - combi-flamer plus some of them have to fail for story reasons. Sicarius is a goner. Not because of his gear, but because they don't want a special character leading the default company of the default chapter. Chronus, sadly, is a goner. Telion survives, and becomes an Eliminator. Lysander.. probably survives and becomes and Aggressor. All three Templar SC's survive. Khan takes a dirt nap. Unless the timing with the new Bike-ish troopers comes out, and Moondrakkan gets a make-over. Vulkan survives. Azrael, Asmodai, and Ezekiel survive. Belial could go either way. Sammael is a goner. Blood Angels - Dante sleeps with the fishes (Jump Pack, 1000+ years old), Tycho survives and maybe becomes an Inceptor where the blast shield can hide his horribly disfigured face, Mephiston survives, Redemptor Librarian Dreads probably become a thing. Thunderwolves in general don't make it, the two wolf chariot... might, but probably not. Harald Deathwolf, and Canis Wolfborn do not. I predict they peel Bjorn out of his current sarcophagus, upgrade him to primaris, then stick him in a redemptor when the conversation doesn't restore him to life as originally thought and he almost dies without his sarcophagus. Murderfang is not so lucky.

[Thumb - Sky Surfers.jpg]
[Thumb - Sky Sled.jpg]


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 06:18:50


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, I think GW will increase the capabilities of Primaris by introducing new models and units from time to time.
Frankly, I'd collect a Primaris army and leave the Tacticals aside,
while Scouts can still play an important role in an SM army.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 06:29:57


Post by: Breton


Eliminators and Infiltrators already suggest Scouts are being replaced too.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 06:37:00


Post by: wuestenfux


Breton wrote:
Eliminators and Infiltrators already suggest Scouts are being replaced too.

How about Primaris, do they also get a price increase next time?


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 06:53:48


Post by: Elbows


Primaris lack a ton of options...but they'll eventually cover those bases. They might do it in a different way than before (leaning in more of a HH or Eldar style of over-specialized squads).

I'd say they lack about 70% of the Marine range right now. Just off the top of my head:

1) Dedicated effective (in 8th edition) close combat
2) Mobile version of the above
3) Indirect fire support
4) Terminator/ultra heavy infantry replacement
5) Flyers
6) Bikes or similar
7) Light speeder or similar
8) Light and "cheap" basic transport (looks like that's coming though)
9) Any actual artillery (not a need, but is a gap in the line)
10) A superheavy vehicle that's not the comical Astraeus (this would probably be a Forgeworld item...something to slot between the Astraeus and Repulsor)
11) A heap of characters (though they're addressing these)
12) Replica characters in potential heavier armour (i.e. the Terminator character replacements)
13) Dedicated anti-tank infantry unit (think Hellblasters but with lascannons or something similar)

etc etc etc.

They cover most of the other roles, but are simply nowhere near finished.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 06:57:03


Post by: BrianDavion


why does everyone keep saying they lack a bike equivilant? stop thinking of what they look like and start thinking what they can do, and it's suddenly clear the bike equivilant of inceptors.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 07:01:14


Post by: Elbows


Because they're not bikes? And yes they'll produce a kit that serves a similar purpose even if it just looks different. They know full well it'll sell.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 07:35:09


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
why does everyone keep saying they lack a bike equivilant? stop thinking of what they look like and start thinking what they can do, and it's suddenly clear the bike equivilant of inceptors.


Inceptors are still jump infantry, not a biker. For most chapters, that's probably similar enough. For some, You'll still need something that's a Bike-ish biker - say for White Scars and Ravenwing.

A lot of people keep saying they need a Terminator replacement, but Aggressors are that replacement. They're only really missing the 2+ and the invuln, but I think they're doing away with mass 2+ and invulns - I think the new plan is add wounds and toughness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me hopes they find Jetbikes for Ravenwing, possibly for Astartes too... and they stick with bikes for the Wolves. Making some Hell's Angels out of Space Wolves screams out to me.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 08:18:28


Post by: BrianDavion


the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:14:19


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Honestly, Invulnerable saves are the thing Primaris are lacking the most. Only two units have them (Captain and Chaplain). Definitely could use more units with them. It might help Primaris against all of the billion different cheap multi-wound weapons out there.

I don't know if we will ever get Primaris Terminators, but some Primaris units with some sort of a shield would be great. Dedicated or at least primarily Close Combat units would be nice too. Unfortunately, I think these kind of units would be placed in the Elites slot, which is already overcrowded due to the inexplicable placement of Reivers (should be Fast Attack) and Aggressors (should be Heavy Support) in that slot.

At any rate, I think the following things are missing:
Units with Invulnerable Saves (either a heavy infantry unit like a Terminator or a fast infantry unit like Vanguard Veterans)
Dedicated Anti-Tank infantry (my guess is the Las Fusils variant of the Eliminators will be exactly this)
Dedicated Light Transport (the tank from the Primaris Lieutenant video appears to be this)
IDF units (some form of a mortar would be nice)
Dedicated Close Combat Units (dudes with Power Weapons and minimal shooting would be good.))

I don't see the need for Bikes. Inceptors perform the same function only better. Ravenwing don't have Primaris to begin with, and White Scars still use regular Troops at times.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:20:16


Post by: Stux


BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:24:16


Post by: Not Online!!!


Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:35:36


Post by: IHateNids


Not Online!!! wrote:
Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.
I felt this one....


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:38:28


Post by: Not Online!!!


 IHateNids wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.
I felt this one....


Granted i am spoilt rotten, started with Orkz went to CSM and then was there during the hightime of IA13 Renegades.
Customizability is for me atleast one of the key features and whilest i really like some of the thing primaris have (like their guns, and some parts of the helmets) overall i feel like they just are too homogenus even in a squad.

Also the whole homogenus schtik is better done by Necrons, where it bothers me a LOOOOOT less.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:39:22


Post by: BrianDavion


 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 09:42:51


Post by: Stux


BrianDavion wrote:
 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.


Agreed. And I don't think many people would mind if Centurions gradually faded away either!


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 10:03:31


Post by: BrianDavion


 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.


Agreed. And I don't think many people would mind if Centurions gradually faded away either!


I've often used Centurions to explain why Primaris are needed. GW needs to produce new minis for Marines, and if they didn't do Primaris we'd instead get more centurions, over specialized units that where more and more rediculas


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 11:35:51


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


Not the first time they've tried to roll back the prevalence of invulns to just Caps and Chaps.

They may have an overlapping function- heck they even have the Impact Hits we've seen borrowed from Fantasy - but they don't overlap on the look/feel. The guy in a jump pack isn't the same as the guy riding a machine or an animal into combat. Holding onto the controls in one hand, wacking someone with a power sword with the other. And as mentioned it will look completely wrong for White Scars and Ravenwing. White Scars would just turn Raven Guard dressed like Apothecaries for Halloween.

 Stux wrote:


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


What's the difference between slower plodding one butt two seats up armored troops with a storm bolter and power fist vs slower plodding one butt two seats up armored troops with two power fists where only one matters, and two fisted bolter type weapons? Also notice the grenade harness borrowed from the Cataphracti. You're right Terminator Armor is iconic, heck the idea of a First Company in Termie Armor itself is, and that's something they're going to have to figure out. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new Gravis unit - once they get around to making close combat Primaris - Pugilators that have some sort of TH/SS replacement, or lightning claw replacement as their two options. Aggressors are the shooty Termies. We don't have the Assault Termies yet.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 12:18:29


Post by: Aash


I don;t think the Primaris line-up is missing all that much tbh, one or two things, sure, but what I don't want to see is the kind of bloat and over-stuffed options of regular space marines being replicated with the Primaris line.

With the addition of the Shadowspear/Phobos units once it is fleshed out with full kits, the Repulsor Executioner, and what appears to be a new transport in the latest tease the only things really lacking are a melee specialist unit and a techmarine.

Melee specialists could easily be added by giving a new weapon loadout for Reivers and inceptors. (Power weapon options the Reiver Sgt and Inceptors armed with twin lightning claws instead of guns should do it).

Any thing else is really just additional bonuses, but what the all-Primaris army really lacks is good CC units.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 13:07:54


Post by: p5freak


When primaris marines were created girlyman forgot that there are heavy weapons, like LC, ML, PC. They also have no clue how to ride a bike. Looks like his budget ran out, no more money to teach them how to handle these things. And, until now, the bureaucracy has stopped him from getting more money. I am not surprised, this came from a guy who cant benefit from his own chapter tactic.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 13:26:06


Post by: Kanluwen


Frankly, I'm glad there's no bikers or "assault squads".

Making Bikers and Jump Packs the hallmarks of two interesting and unique Chapters(Raven Guard and White Scars) was a mistake from the outset. The stuff we saw with the Tau campaign in 7th actually made for unique and interesting playstyles.

As for what they're lacking, I don't know. They aren't done with the range yet.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 23:00:18


Post by: The Newman


Depending on what the Lasfusil does Primaris are really only missing a solid melee unit.

Reivers are close, give or take power weapon options on the Sergeant, but they're not mobile enough. (Although as has been mentioned they do have very similar set of jets to the Suppressors, so a higher speed/fly is something they could easily pick up.)

I don't know that they actually care so much about a cheap transport since Infiltrators can just deploy on top of whatever objective you'd want the transport to get them to in the first place.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 23:53:03


Post by: Insectum7


Character.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/06 23:55:00


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Insectum7 wrote:
Character.


Imsectum, the leutnants, they are the CHARACHTER of the army!


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 04:43:25


Post by: Breton


Aash wrote:
I don;t think the Primaris line-up is missing all that much tbh, one or two things, sure, but what I don't want to see is the kind of bloat and over-stuffed options of regular space marines being replicated with the Primaris line.

With the addition of the Shadowspear/Phobos units once it is fleshed out with full kits, the Repulsor Executioner, and what appears to be a new transport in the latest tease the only things really lacking are a melee specialist unit and a techmarine.

Melee specialists could easily be added by giving a new weapon loadout for Reivers and inceptors. (Power weapon options the Reiver Sgt and Inceptors armed with twin lightning claws instead of guns should do it).

Any thing else is really just additional bonuses, but what the all-Primaris army really lacks is good CC units.


You're thinking of the super-Vanilla chapters, plus the Blood Angels. Everything out already with a few kit tweaks could easily fill out Vanilla Trooper Marines, and Blood Angel lines. Add Angel wing bits, a force pike, and a right handed combat arm to Redemptors, plus the melee specialist tweaks you already mentioned and BA are pretty well set. The Vanilla Marines and Space Wolves pretty much already were.

But think about the less Vanilla chapters. White Scars, what do you think of? Bikes, and Outflanking Rhinos/Razorbacks. I suspect most people have some garbled Classic Western image of a horde of Native Americans kicking up a cloud of dust as they circle a wagon train- only Mongols instead of Native Americans, only on bikes instead of horses, only instead of a wagon train, its some sort of Drukhari slaver base camp.

You think of Dark Angels and what do you think of? You think of a Green Wing squad finding a Transformers 2 DVD and their Master calling Sammael about new rumors of The Fallen, Sammael comes out and runs genetic testing on the DVD to find out Cypher has a sense of humor, and was the last one to watch it, so he calls his pal Belial who rubs Han's lucky dice before making the jump to ludicrous speed, meanwhile Sammael starts driving a spiral search pattern on his jetbike leading a column of bike squads, Landspeeders, and Batman Jets to Teleport Beacon Belial and his Terminator Knights onto the maniacal laughter echoing down the hall of where Cypher used to be.

Primaris is a much further than a new sprue for a couple kits for either of those two.

Edit to Add - they're also missing some of the unique equipment - Stormwolves/fangs, Baal Repulsors, Bigger Batman Jets That sort of thing.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 06:32:37


Post by: Insectum7


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Character.


Imsectum, the leutnants, they are the CHARACHTER of the army!


A'ite, a'ite, noice.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 14:51:17


Post by: Melissia


Cheap transports.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 15:37:52


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 15:49:46


Post by: Nvs


Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 16:20:42


Post by: Dudeface


Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.


I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 17:31:40


Post by: Nvs


Dudeface wrote:
Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.


I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.


It's all personal taste when all is said and done and I don't want to derail this thread into yet another bashing of Primaris aesthetic. Regret even bringing it up now lol.

I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 18:41:35


Post by: The Newman


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.


I do sincerely hope that the existing SM aircraft make the jump with minimal modification, the Storm Raven in particular almost feels more like a Primaris option than a Vanilla Marine unit in the first place. The same is true of the Centurions for that matter. (Although those things need at least one more wound.)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 19:45:10


Post by: BrianDavion


Nvs wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.


I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.


It's all personal taste when all is said and done and I don't want to derail this thread into yet another bashing of Primaris aesthetic. Regret even bringing it up now lol.

I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.


ahh but do you think they should look like..


or like


or perhaps like


or perhaps even




terminator armor has appered in several varients, I'm not even including the custodes or grey knights patterns. so there definatly be room to do a Primaris Terminator armor that is quite visually distinct while also reckonziably of "terminator linniage"



What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 22:25:36


Post by: Nvs


All true, but for the past 25 years the majority of GWs aesthetic hasn't changed that much for Space Marines. It's so important to their brand that more people know what Space Marines are than the company who makes them or even the game they belong to.

It's also telling that every image you linked was for a non-mainstream FW art/model as opposed to main GW proper. Even the omgwtf ugly original Space Hulk terminators have more in common with current Terminators than the ones you linked.

When I think 40k the main things that come to mind immediately are Rhinos, Terminators, Space Marines, and Dreadnaughts. Departing from their brand is a mistake thus the huge outcry for the Primaris we've seen since their premier. It was a mistake and it's not too late to correct it. IMO anyway.

That's why I would love to buy a few Primaris kits but can only really get 2 that don't stray too far away from what I expect a Space Marine to look like.

And like I said, this is entirely my opinion as the aesthetics of an army is entirely up to personal preference. But I'm 40 years old and I want my Space Marines to look like the ones I got 25 years ago.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/07 23:21:59


Post by: BrianDavion


Nvs wrote:
All true, but for the past 25 years the majority of GWs aesthetic hasn't changed that much for Space Marines. It's so important to their brand that more people know what Space Marines are than the company who makes them or even the game they belong to.

It's also telling that every image you linked was for a non-mainstream FW art/model as opposed to main GW proper. Even the omgwtf ugly original Space Hulk terminators have more in common with current Terminators than the ones you linked.



the very first picture I linked was of Indomatus Pattern armor, Deathwing to be specific. the others where Tartaros pattern armor

OHH LOOK GW MAKES A KIT FOR IT

Cataphracti armor

ohh look GW makes a kit for that too.

and the last picture was a picture of an early Termy prototype. not sure if it was from forgeworld or early RT era art or what but I included it simply because GW's been borrowing ideas from old RT era concept art a few times with the Primaris release.

so yes there is indeed some varity among terminators.
and yeah I agree the basic tacticus armor is the best looking, but there's some other stuff that I think looks darn smart too. the basic Phobos armor is a nifty "light tacticool" look. and eliminators are the Marine Snipers we've wanted for some time. not a biiig fan of the gravis armor, but I think inceptors look solid, my biggest issue with then is the fight base.





What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 07:35:37


Post by: Breton


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.


I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

They are missing cheap transports, but they're also missing the low-mid range non-transports - the air superiority fighter, the fighter/bomber, The AA Tank, the medium tank, the artillery.

If the New Repulsor is the Primaris Rhino equivalent, I'm definitely hoping it has more than 10 capacity and isn't much more costly than a Rhino (It should be more at T8 16W), but not much more. The normal Repulsor holds 10, and this one won't/shouldn't have storage for ammo/power packs for all the guns.

I don't see them allowing Stormravens to transport Primaris. They've worked pretty hard not to allow that cross over, and give Primaris lines their own weaponry The TLHB/LC on the Repulsor is the exception proving the rule. plus the backlash or people who are already torqued about the "Can't transport Primaris" would have a field day.

I expect to see another Gravis unit that will have either long range AT or Close Combat Loads as their two options. Think all Cylone Missile or all Lightning Claws or TH/SS.

I expect to see Deep Strike - probably Teleportarium - retcon'ed onto Mk X Gravis armor - I think they want to get away from so many alpha/deep strike but still slow units, but doubt they can piecemeal like this.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't expect to see Suppressors get a CCW option. Melee Heavy/Dedicated Primaris will be one of the last things they add to the line

I expect to see a Hover-Cavalry unit to replace bikes. I think they're having almost daily meetings to figure out how to do this without using Jetbikes to avoid pissing off Sammael, Custodes, and Eldar (even more) - but this will be closer to last as they flesh out Ravenwing and White Scars

I'll also agree every line could use more troop slot units. Assault Marines and probably bikes should have been troops already for Force Org reasons, most infantry should get objective secured - and objective securing should be tie-broken by something other than pure model count - not just basic troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nvs wrote:


I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.


Aggressors ARE the analog to Terminators. Cumberson, Two-seat-on-a-transport-taking, Slow, walking, Supposedly more durable, Power Fist(s) and a short range shooter.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 07:46:41


Post by: BrianDavion


I'd have no problem with the new trnasport only having a ten model capacity if instead of more room it used the weight saved from the lack of a turret to move faster. if it say... had a speed of 15 and a cost of 100 points that'd be a reasonably useful transport.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 07:46:45


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Allowing Primaris to use older "big", "non-Rhino" transports such as Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, Storm Wolfs, etc.. would be a good start IMO.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 07:52:02


Post by: BrianDavion


eh primaris have a land raider equivilant, although being able to load up stormravens would be nice.

as it is I'm planning on doing a mixed blood ravens force. once my primaris battle company is done, I'm gonna do a 1st company demi-company deploying via storm raven. I'm not likely to use them all (outside of apoc) but it's a fun concept!


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 08:49:26


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
I'd have no problem with the new trnasport only having a ten model capacity if instead of more room it used the weight saved from the lack of a turret to move faster. if it say... had a speed of 15 and a cost of 100 points that'd be a reasonably useful transport.


That's a reasonable but non-traditional-for-GW approach. A 15" move is half again the armed Repulsor, 3 more than a Rhino/Razorback (And Predator), and with a 3" Disembark 75% of the way across the "normal" No-Man's-Land- with a 3inch Disembark and a 6 inch advance its entirely across the no man's land.. Even if they did deviate between a standardized stat line (including move) for a chassis, 15" without a "Not within 9 inches" caveat feels like it might be getting into abuse potential territory.

A 6" move squad in a Rhino chassis can move 12", advance 6" disembark 3" move 6" advance 6" - that's (Not within 24") 0.00000001 inches shy of 33 out of of 36" on turn 2. The 15" Repulsor Theory-cutor can cover that last 3 inches. Or - if they potentially stay in 15 + 6 + 15+ 6 they can be across and off the board. I think there's a scenario involving escaping off the opposing board edge? And it probably says not to use transports. But it can/will/already has inspired tournament missions where tailoring lists to narrative missions isn't possible because tailoring lists is frowned upon.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more transports, and transports having more usability, but movement alone probably isn't the answer. Ground troops by themselves are likely too slow, faster transports are too fast, and need to do something other than be fast probably in the Command and Control area like the Forgeworld Rhinos.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 09:08:27


Post by: BrianDavion


I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 09:30:33


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)


So was I, most of the time they equate transport capacity gained/lost based on Dakka/Ammo/Power storage. The LRC carries more bodies because Hurricane Bolter Ammo takes up less space than twin LC Power Packs. Or that was what they told us. And Good God, if they make the Primaris Rhino-pulsor Phobos only its gonna be


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 09:44:41


Post by: BrianDavion


Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)


So was I, most of the time they equate transport capacity gained/lost based on Dakka/Ammo/Power storage. The LRC carries more bodies because Hurricane Bolter Ammo takes up less space than twin LC Power Packs. Or that was what they told us. And Good God, if they make the Primaris Rhino-pulsor Phobos only its gonna be


ohh I agreed. it'll be a gak storm, it'd make GW look completely tone deaf


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 11:01:32


Post by: Mr Morden


Whilst I would have prefered a straight update of the "small" Marine range to Primaris size it does look like we are stuck with having both still wandering together hand in hand.

The marine range is already horribly bloated with various "new" units brutally crowbarred in over the last few years and it would be a shame for Primaris to go the same way.

We are stuck with them having to make "Marine" units that continue the asthetic but don't look enough like old units that they can just be proxied - so I don't think we will ever see drop pods, bikes, teminators, Land Raider, Rhino (and variants) - the latter are all used by other Imperial forces.

A basic transport not a IFV would be good.
A mobile artillery unit
Characters



What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 11:14:30


Post by: Breton


 Mr Morden wrote:
Whilst I would have prefered a straight update of the "small" Marine range to Primaris size it does look like we are stuck with having both still wandering together hand in hand.

The marine range is already horribly bloated with various "new" units brutally crowbarred in over the last few years and it would be a shame for Primaris to go the same way.



I've never understood this complaint. More options are always good. You were never taking all the options in the codex in a normal sized game anyway. Why are more options you can swap in an out based on codex updates, flavor changes, and pure whimsy bad? I mean if its just your personal OCD, I get that. I have some of the same, it gets me when the units in a 100 Marine company aren't in 5's and 10's, 3 and 6 man Centurions, Aggressors, Eliminators and so on feel weird. So an honest question, how is it bloated, and shoe horned? Some are less optimal than others, but it doesn't feel like any of them have no theoretical use.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 11:40:51


Post by: The Newman


Breton wrote:
I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

I would point out that they already sell chapter-specific upgrade kits for Primaris marines and that they are also still carrying that vehicle upgrade kit with wargear for three or four different factions. A generic melee upgrade sprue for Primaris Sergeants couldn't cost any more than that and they could probably do it just copy-pasting from their existing CAD files and not have to design anything new. Although if they go that route I hope they give Reivers something besides the sword/fist options. Axe/chainfist would fit their aesthetic better, even if a short 'tactical' power axe would mean some new design work.

(I wouldn't even complain about having to perform surgery on my existing Sergeants for more than five minutes.)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 12:15:18


Post by: Breton


The Newman wrote:
Breton wrote:
I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

I would point out that they already sell chapter-specific upgrade kits for Primaris marines and that they are also still carrying that vehicle upgrade kit with wargear for three or four different factions. A generic melee upgrade sprue for Primaris Sergeants couldn't cost any more than that and they could probably do it just copy-pasting from their existing CAD files and not have to design anything new. Although if they go that route I hope they give Reivers something besides the sword/fist options. Axe/chainfist would fit their aesthetic better, even if a short 'tactical' power axe would mean some new design work.

(I wouldn't even complain about having to perform surgery on my existing Sergeants for more than five minutes.)


The Sergeant melee upgrade is in the Chapter specific upgrade pack. You're talking about- as I understood it, an across the board option upgrade for all the Reivers in the squad. I don't see them forcing a second purchase added to a $50 box - of any unit that already has their two options done - i.e. for Reivers BP/Combat Knife, or Bolter Carbine. If they give a Phobos/Shadowspear unit a CCW option/upgrade, I think it would be the Suppresors with a big ass hammer/sword/lance type of weapon either thrusting or on the downswing to fit their reclining and two handed pose, as they already have the jump boots, and grav chutes.

The vehicle upgrade pack doesn't have any rules do they? They're all cosmetic?


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 13:10:35


Post by: G00fySmiley


For me the biggest missing (both of which have already been mentioned) are

1) bikes. it was ork bikes and buggies that got me into the hobby. I have 50ish space marine /scount bikes plus attack bikes, at least 50 ork bikes, 15 custodes bikes, and 30+ eldar bikes, My next bike project will eb dark eldar jetbikes and hellions. But if GW made nice looking Primaris bike model I would totallt push that back ion favor of Primaris bikers.

2) Razerback/Rhino equivalent transport.somethign cheap to zip em around the board, maybe a storm bolter or 2 and a lower capacity transport model with a better gun(but not to pricey/powerful) say a twin hellblaster on top.

I personally like the look of/playing mech armies or mixed bikers and units in transports getting where they need to go, be it backfield shooting positions, midfield holding/firing or up close combat, and none of this "we are both somehow out of transports and dug in/prepared positions like we waited for a starting bell to begin fighting. like... "oh dear chaps why don't we meet up at 4:00 on a thursday for a battel you xenos scum. no shots fired before that moment, you greenskins will abide by that yes?"


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 13:17:22


Post by: Bharring


Unit upgrade options.

Access to OldMarine goodies (options and transports).


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 13:22:15


Post by: Insectum7


Bharring wrote:
Unit upgrade options.

Access to OldMarine goodies (options and transports).


Which would be the end of traditional marines for sure, except also ensure that the old models could be used to proxy the Primaris ones. I'm not sure GW wants to encourage that. I remain ciriois to see how it plays out.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 14:24:51


Post by: Rybrook


What about a techmarine, they have an apothecary and chaplain then you could have a retro looking command squad


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 14:33:56


Post by: The Newman


Breton wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Breton wrote:
I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

I would point out that they already sell chapter-specific upgrade kits for Primaris marines and that they are also still carrying that vehicle upgrade kit with wargear for three or four different factions. A generic melee upgrade sprue for Primaris Sergeants couldn't cost any more than that and they could probably do it just copy-pasting from their existing CAD files and not have to design anything new. Although if they go that route I hope they give Reivers something besides the sword/fist options. Axe/chainfist would fit their aesthetic better, even if a short 'tactical' power axe would mean some new design work.

(I wouldn't even complain about having to perform surgery on my existing Sergeants for more than five minutes.)


The Sergeant melee upgrade is in the Chapter specific upgrade pack. You're talking about- as I understood it, an across the board option upgrade for all the Reivers in the squad. I don't see them forcing a second purchase added to a $50 box - of any unit that already has their two options done - i.e. for Reivers BP/Combat Knife, or Bolter Carbine. If they give a Phobos/Shadowspear unit a CCW option/upgrade, I think it would be the Suppresors with a big ass hammer/sword/lance type of weapon either thrusting or on the downswing to fit their reclining and two handed pose, as they already have the jump boots, and grav chutes.

The vehicle upgrade pack doesn't have any rules do they? They're all cosmetic?


A) The chapter-specific upgrade kits only carry Power Swords (except the BA one, that has a Chain Sword), while an Intercessor Sergeant can take a Chain Sword, Power Sword, or Power Fist. Right now there is no way to get some of those without buying mini-marines.

B) I'd talked about the possibility of Sergeant weapon upgrades and possibly a higher speed for the unit in an earlier post, I didn't spell it out again since I thought it was still implied in the back-and-forth.

C) That vehicle upgrade sprue has at least 3 guns on it. One is a combi-melta, one is an upgrade for an Eldar bike, and the third also looks like an Eldar weapon of some sort. Not sure what the rest of it is.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 16:16:06


Post by: Lemondish


 Melissia wrote:
Cheap transports.


Something to transport that isn't obsec troops.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 17:59:20


Post by: Elbows


 Rybrook wrote:
What about a techmarine, they have an apothecary and chaplain then you could have a retro looking command squad


This was previewed a month ago, not sure on release date.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/08 18:23:59


Post by: Sir Heckington


 Elbows wrote:
 Rybrook wrote:
What about a techmarine, they have an apothecary and chaplain then you could have a retro looking command squad


This was previewed a month ago, not sure on release date.


It was an Iron Hands exclusive tech marine however. Finally they got something! or eventually.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 12:49:27


Post by: Quasistellar


It's an Iron Father. More of a captain type character with tech marine training in the fluff. He won't be a cheap HQ I'm sure.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 13:32:42


Post by: SeanDrake


They could really do with not basing all the vehicles on the Repulsive but I think that horse may have bolted sadly.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 13:43:55


Post by: Nurglitch


I'd love to see Beakie Primaris.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 15:43:54


Post by: The Newman


SeanDrake wrote:
They could really do with not basing all the vehicles on the Repulsive but I think that horse may have bolted sadly.


There was that teaser video showing something that looked a lot like a hover-rhino (blurry image not withstanding) so there's still hope on that front. Although that does hurt the chances of GW dropping transport segregation...


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 20:03:40


Post by: Lemondish


The Newman wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
They could really do with not basing all the vehicles on the Repulsive but I think that horse may have bolted sadly.


There was that teaser video showing something that looked a lot like a hover-rhino (blurry image not withstanding) so there's still hope on that front. Although that does hurt the chances of GW dropping transport segregation...


That same video had a much clearer side profile picture towards the end, and though it was mostly obscured, you could still clearly see it carried a very similar design as the Repulsor.

The only thing that made it look like a Rhino is the front windows anyway.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 21:54:09


Post by: Kanluwen


Quasistellar wrote:
It's an Iron Father. More of a captain type character with tech marine training in the fluff. He won't be a cheap HQ I'm sure.

More than that, it's literally supposed to be a named character.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 22:02:23


Post by: The Newman


Lemondish wrote:
The Newman wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
They could really do with not basing all the vehicles on the Repulsive but I think that horse may have bolted sadly.


There was that teaser video showing something that looked a lot like a hover-rhino (blurry image not withstanding) so there's still hope on that front. Although that does hurt the chances of GW dropping transport segregation...


That same video had a much clearer side profile picture towards the end, and though it was mostly obscured, you could still clearly see it carried a very similar design as the Repulsor.

The only thing that made it look like a Rhino is the front windows anyway.


https://youtu.be/SFsL-VdxLYw

Nah, look at the overhang on the base. That thing is clearly too small to be a Repulsor chassis. Besides, the Rhino, Land Raider, and Repulsor hulls have a pretty similar profile in any case.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/09 22:23:21


Post by: BrianDavion


shrinking the base hull and modding it would be a piece of cake with modern CAD software.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 02:42:43


Post by: Lemondish


The Newman wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
The Newman wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
They could really do with not basing all the vehicles on the Repulsive but I think that horse may have bolted sadly.


There was that teaser video showing something that looked a lot like a hover-rhino (blurry image not withstanding) so there's still hope on that front. Although that does hurt the chances of GW dropping transport segregation...


That same video had a much clearer side profile picture towards the end, and though it was mostly obscured, you could still clearly see it carried a very similar design as the Repulsor.

The only thing that made it look like a Rhino is the front windows anyway.


https://youtu.be/SFsL-VdxLYw

Nah, look at the overhang on the base. That thing is clearly too small to be a Repulsor chassis. Besides, the Rhino, Land Raider, and Repulsor hulls have a pretty similar profile in any case.




Looks almost identical to a Repulsor to me, especially being near enough to other models to guess its height.

In any case, we shall see soon enough.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 10:06:50


Post by: Ishagu


A lot of people are asking for re-hashes of existing units. That is so boring.

Primaris have so far been quite unique. Jump troops with heavy, ranged weapons or multi-shot plasmas. Armoured infantry with huge volumes of dakka and power fists, etc
These aren't mirrors of existing units but something new. The range should continue to be expanded this way.

And seriously, why do people keep asking for a cheap transport? There are half a dozen Primaris units that can deploy anywhere or arrive anywhere from reserve for free. What are you putting in this cheap transport, exactly? It's more efficient to dominate the board without one. Maybe Hellblasters, but I can run Inceptors with Plamas who have more shots and cost less than Hellblasters with a transport would.
No one is running Rhinos in a competitive setting. I'm not using them in narrative games because they don't offer anything I can't get for free.
Ironically we seem to be getting one, but unless it has some very dynamic additional rules I certainly won't be using it.


PS: They definitely need a Techmarine! lol


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 12:00:36


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


For me, a heavy melee unit (as in, in Tacticus armour, with shields and power weapons and suchlike), a Techmarine, and a transport flyer - the Stormraven would be nice!


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 12:05:39


Post by: IHateNids


I wouldnt object to some CC Gravis dudes like....

I just want whatever document containing the Primaris Iron Father to hurry up and become a thing...


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 15:00:59


Post by: The Newman


Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?

Actually, considering how Primaris tend to be armed we'd probably get an Inceptor variant with d3 shot flamer pistols. 6d3 S4s that auto-hit plus the MW generation on charging, plus also getting those shots while in melee? Yeah, I can see that.

@Lemondish: Looking at the blurry shot where the tank is mostly facing the camera side-by-side with the Repulsor at the same angle, it really looks like the proportions are wrong. The Repulsor has thick side-wall sections on par with the thickness of a LR track section (the forum needs to agree on what to call that part on a Repulsor), they're a lot thinner on the new tank.

That said; you're correct, we'll know soon enough. Not like either of us wins anything if we're right anyway.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 15:12:53


Post by: Ishagu


We're getting stealthy heavy weapons infantry soon. Infiltrating las cannon style teams. That's not something that has a mirror in the classic Astartes either,

I think if they get a dedicated melee unit it might be different from anything we've seen.

I don't mind a super elite Terminator style unit if it has the stats to back that up. t5, 4 wounds, 4 attacks, no negative hit modifiers, 2+ 4++


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 15:27:14


Post by: fraser1191


Well let's look at our trends:

Aggressors are close quarters shooters with melee weapons for when they get too close
Inceptors wanna drop in close but can get out of melee with fly and have T5
Suppressors wanna stay back but can move 12, and have fly to fall back and shoot
Reivers do things

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if our melee unit ended up being aggressor/inceptor hybrid. Fast melee unit that has some guns


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/10 20:48:13


Post by: DanielFM


The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?


Don't you think twin power fist Primaris Marines with two attacks are underwhelming? What do they get for having two power fists? Nothing. A Terminator with a single power fist gets the same profile.
If they were three attacks base they would be a lot more respectable as a CaC unit and there would be no need for new CaC specialists.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 00:17:04


Post by: The Newman


DanielFM wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?


Don't you think twin power fist Primaris Marines with two attacks are underwhelming? What do they get for having two power fists? Nothing. A Terminator with a single power fist gets the same profile.
If they were three attacks base they would be a lot more respectable as a CaC unit and there would be no need for new CaC specialists.


That was supposed to be sarcastic. I thought the fact that I immediately turned around and started speculating on what a Primaris melee troop would probably look like would have made that obvious, but the written word remains a poor choice for conveying the nuances of a tonal language despite all the opportunities that technology has had to correct the problem and show every sign of continuing to do so.

[Edit] ...or I could start using emojis like the rest of the human race.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 12:46:35


Post by: DanielFM


The Newman wrote:
DanielFM wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?


Don't you think twin power fist Primaris Marines with two attacks are underwhelming? What do they get for having two power fists? Nothing. A Terminator with a single power fist gets the same profile.
If they were three attacks base they would be a lot more respectable as a CaC unit and there would be no need for new CaC specialists.


That was supposed to be sarcastic. I thought the fact that I immediately turned around and started speculating on what a Primaris melee troop would probably look like would have made that obvious, but the written word remains a poor choice for conveying the nuances of a tonal language despite all the opportunities that technology has had to correct the problem and show every sign of continuing to do so.

[Edit] ...or I could start using emojis like the rest of the human race.

Oh, I wasn't addressing you directly, it was more of a retorical question. I wanted to know if more people found it as weird as I do. And also to highlight an easy fix for them.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 15:16:10


Post by: The Newman


I doubt they'll get three attacks base. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets picking up "bearer may make one additional attack if it attacks with this weapon" is more likely.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 18:26:04


Post by: LunaWolvesLoyalist


A good back story.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 18:28:15


Post by: fraser1191


You you get an extra attack for having 2 lightning claws, so why not 4 2 gauntlets?


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 19:23:31


Post by: DanielFM


The Newman wrote:
I doubt they'll get three attacks base. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets picking up "bearer may make one additional attack if it attacks with this weapon" is more likely.


That would be good enough (and functionally the same!)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/11 19:52:56


Post by: The Newman


DanielFM wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I doubt they'll get three attacks base. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets picking up "bearer may make one additional attack if it attacks with this weapon" is more likely.


That would be good enough (and functionally the same!)


Yes it would be functionally identical. What it wouldn't do is impact the base Gravis profile, GW probably doesn't want to do that.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 07:04:40


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
A lot of people are asking for re-hashes of existing units. That is so boring.

A lot of people are asking for rehashes of existing unit archetypes.


Primaris have so far been quite unique. Jump troops with heavy, ranged weapons or multi-shot plasmas. Armoured infantry with huge volumes of dakka and power fists, etc
These aren't mirrors of existing units but something new. The range should continue to be expanded this way.

And seriously, why do people keep asking for a cheap transport? There are half a dozen Primaris units that can deploy anywhere or arrive anywhere from reserve for free. What are you putting in this cheap transport, exactly? It's more efficient to dominate the board without one. Maybe Hellblasters, but I can run Inceptors with Plamas who have more shots and cost less than Hellblasters with a transport would.
No one is running Rhinos in a competitive setting. I'm not using them in narrative games because they don't offer anything I can't get for free.
Ironically we seem to be getting one, but unless it has some very dynamic additional rules I certainly won't be using it.


They have in the past, and will again in the future. If there's a Rhino-type to run. Someone has to have one to run, and think of the idea before it can be used competitively. Additionally, and this may come as a shock, not everyone plays super competitively and will take something more fun than useful. Their's is not the only way to play, and neither is yours.

PS: They definitely need a Techmarine! lol



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?

Actually, considering how Primaris tend to be armed we'd probably get an Inceptor variant with d3 shot flamer pistols. 6d3 S4s that auto-hit plus the MW generation on charging, plus also getting those shots while in melee? Yeah, I can see that.



Considering how Primaris are armed, we won't seen an Inceptor variant with anything they don't already have. IF they're going to melee option a jump unit, and IF it's a unit that's already out, it'll be the Supressors who only have the one option. A two handed melee of some kind might fit into their Jump Pose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DanielFM wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?


Don't you think twin power fist Primaris Marines with two attacks are underwhelming? What do they get for having two power fists? Nothing. A Terminator with a single power fist gets the same profile.
If they were three attacks base they would be a lot more respectable as a CaC unit and there would be no need for new CaC specialists.


Terminators also Teleport. Aggressors have all the drawbacks - slow, two seats on a limited transport option takers, and can't teleport. Yet. They're the shooty Termies. I suspect we'll see a new unit similar to them but different data sheet to be the CC Termies.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 11:37:51


Post by: The Newman


Breton wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Aggressors already have two Power Fists, how much more melee do you want?

Actually, considering how Primaris tend to be armed we'd probably get an Inceptor variant with d3 shot flamer pistols. 6d3 S4s that auto-hit plus the MW generation on charging, plus also getting those shots while in melee? Yeah, I can see that.



Considering how Primaris are armed, we won't seen an Inceptor variant with anything they don't already have. IF they're going to melee option a jump unit, and IF it's a unit that's already out, it'll be the Supressors who only have the one option. A two handed melee of some kind might fit into their Jump Pose.

My bad, I said "Inceptor variant" when I meant "a Gravis jump pack squad". Can't try to say thay won't happen since there are already multiple Primaris units that are identical armor only differentiated by their equipment (Intercessors/Hellblasters, Aggressors/Inceptors, Reivers/Infiltrators, Repulsor/Executioner).

Having said that, if a melee-focused Primaris unit with decent mobility is in the cards I hope you're wrong about it being an alternate weapon for the Suppressors. For the moment * Suppressors only come in the three-man squad size, a three-man squad isn't going to be great in melee unless it has gear that is a serious departure from anything we have right now, and even then I think I'd want it on the more resilient Gravis platform.

* Who knows if this will stay true. I more than half expect both Suppressors and Eliminators to be able to go up to six-man squads once their individual squad boxes or Marine Codex 2.0 hits. Not that a six-man squad really changes my thinking much as far as melee is concerned.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 20:26:14


Post by: Jimbobbyish


If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 21:18:56


Post by: Apple Peel


Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.

So far we have Primaris Calgar and his Victrix Guard.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see new Primaris characters with whatever next campaign we get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, also, Primaris Iron Hands character coming at some point confirmed, so there’s that. But that doesn’t really do anything for the non-codex chapters.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 21:22:59


Post by: BrianDavion


Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 21:31:04


Post by: Apple Peel


BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.

I can agree an everything but BA death company. I’m some what hoping that the Primaris BA don’t go “bad” and mutate to madness like minimarines. Rather, I’m kind of hoping death company gets kept as a legacy unit. The Primaris would mutate into “functional” berzerkers and use a similar color/design scheme.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 21:47:22


Post by: fraser1191


Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


Honestly I understand both arguments for having separate codexes and one giant codex. Personally I've always felt that marines should just have 1 codex with an additional lore book. I remember starting and I was looking at BA, DA, and the SM codexes being very confused I didn't understand at the start. But now I get it.

One codex would cut down some confusion and help with instances where people just recently were saying only vanilla SM could take the new Executioner


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 22:08:36


Post by: BrianDavion


given that in the past 3 years GW has introduced Deathwatch, 1k Sons and Death Guard I see more evidance GW is doubling down on Marine varients then I do that they're trimming them


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/12 22:24:19


Post by: Jimbobbyish


BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.


I could have sworn I read that Primaris Marines don't have the Canis Helix gene, they don't suffer from Black Rage and because they are new to the Dark Angel chapter I doubt they would be accepted into the inner circle.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 00:26:29


Post by: BrianDavion


Jimbobbyish wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.


I could have sworn I read that Primaris Marines don't have the Canis Helix gene, they don't suffer from Black Rage and because they are new to the Dark Angel chapter I doubt they would be accepted into the inner circle.


you've read wrong. Cawl claimed to have solved all the problems inheriant, but it seems he over sold. as for the dark angels. IIRC Primaris Captains are Inner circle. and eventually the dark angels are gonna start trusting Primaris Marines. at the very least there'll come a time when the primaris marines are one recruited in house


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 01:55:05


Post by: Asherian Command


Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
why does everyone keep saying they lack a bike equivilant? stop thinking of what they look like and start thinking what they can do, and it's suddenly clear the bike equivilant of inceptors.


Inceptors are still jump infantry, not a biker. For most chapters, that's probably similar enough. For some, You'll still need something that's a Bike-ish biker - say for White Scars and Ravenwing.

A lot of people keep saying they need a Terminator replacement, but Aggressors are that replacement. They're only really missing the 2+ and the invuln, but I think they're doing away with mass 2+ and invulns - I think the new plan is add wounds and toughness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me hopes they find Jetbikes for Ravenwing, possibly for Astartes too... and they stick with bikes for the Wolves. Making some Hell's Angels out of Space Wolves screams out to me.


Aggressors are more of a Centurion like unit than a Terminator Unit.

Currently the primaris are lacking close assault units, close combat units, heavy infantry elite units. Elite Units in general that are from the first company, and chapter-specific units.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 05:28:44


Post by: Breton


 Apple Peel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.

I can agree an everything but BA death company. I’m some what hoping that the Primaris BA don’t go “bad” and mutate to madness like minimarines. Rather, I’m kind of hoping death company gets kept as a legacy unit. The
Primaris would mutate into “functional” berzerkers and use a similar color/design scheme.


If Wulfen/Deathcompany are in, Death Company/Wulfen are in. If Wulfen/Death Company are out, Death Company/Wulfen are out.

They've given the idea that Primaris are more stable, and don't have the gene issues 1.0 Marines have. They might try and say the Black Rage is psychic and not Genetic. The Red Thirst is supposedly genetic, but rarely shows up in games/editions outside of fluff.

Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Wolf Guard are all special versions of a pre-existing unit or unit archetype. Jump Assault Troops, Terminators, etc. The Primaris Dread already has a Plasma Option which WAS DA specific.

Ravenguard and White Scars will need some form of Calvarly/Bike unit (and land/air/hover two seat+ speeders for Ravenwing) to maintain their flavor/theme. Again these are most often special versions (i.e. an iconography upgrade pack and a basic box) of a currently existing unit.

The DA BatJets are seperate - far more than an iconography pack. The SW Jets are seperate. The Baal Pred, Deathwing/Ravenwing Knights, Bjorn/Murderfang, and DC Dread are between special and seperate... they also need a weapon upgrade sprue.

The special characters will become a combination of phased out the same way as 1.0 - i.e. they'll become worse and worse until we quit using them and won't care when GW quits making rules - or Primaris-ified like Marneus. I suspect it will be done in a way to match them to a new unit - in keeping with the current Primaris Captains and Lieutenants they usually have similar Master Crafted gear to their unit types - and the ones that don't match the new unit will be the ones to die. Some of this will turn out to be laughably comical - i.e. Bjorn will be pulled out of his Dread in the hopes of becoming a Primaris Marine will restore him to full health, only to have the procedure not work and they have to emergency-sarcophagize the guy in a Redemptor Dread. They can't write him off, and they can't leave him in an old Dread He's too Central to SW lore.

Torias Telion and Quietus are easily converted into a Phobos Eliminator.

Dante is 1,100+ years old and a Jump Pack marine. If they don't make a decent Jump Pack Marine - well BA players are already going to be hopping mad, what's killing off their ancient Chapter Master who still had a Strategy Rating of 5, while all the Strategy Rating 6 chapter masters deferred to... his strategies? Shrike will be in the same boat as Dante, perhaps more so.

Lysander is easy to turn into a Bolt-storm Aggressor, especially one that can take advantage of their Chapter Tactic while using the Auto-BoltStorms + allow it for any Aggressors within 6" to make him different than Calgar?

Pedro Kantor - was practically a Gravis captain before there were Gravis Captains. And Hooray, he gets a free power sword he won't need now.

Chronus is unlikely to make the switch unless they add a lot of Primaris tank vehicles.

Sicarius will be replaced by Decimus Felix.

Khan and Hestan will be upgraded to Primaris versions.

Azrael possibly turns into a Hellblaster, since I doubt they'll keep combi-weapons.

Helbrect, the Emperor's Champion, and Grimaldus are easy swaps.

The Librarians are easy swaps - though Tiggy is getting writing-on-the-wall fluff recently about how much various acts of heroism are aging him.

Asmodai probably gets a massive send-off to be replaced by a new Primaris Interrogator Chaplain named - not because there's anything wrong with Asmodai, but just so some special characters die and get replaced in each book and players can't scream favoritism.

Cassius is likely on his last leg. He's also old and probably gets more play in DeathWatch than Ultramarines. Tyrranic War vets not making the jump from the Index to the Codex- even without generalized rules for monstrous creatures to include Demons is portentous.

Tycho - name ripoff aside - has always been someone GW can't figure out what to do with - and could finally find a niche as a Phobos Captain he already sort of looks like one.

The Space Wolves and the Ultras probably lose the most characters, just because they have the most to lose- especially the Wolves as they have the most that are so similar.

If they're planning ahead, the Talonmaster will become either Landspeeder or Whatever-replaces-bikes field-able.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:


you've read wrong. Cawl claimed to have solved all the problems inheriant, but it seems he over sold. as for the dark angels. IIRC Primaris Captains are Inner circle. and eventually the dark angels are gonna start trusting Primaris Marines. at the very least there'll come a time when the primaris marines are one recruited in house



I Think I've already seen fluff about DA Primaris Marines figuring out at least part of the Inner Circle's secret and trying to figure out how to tell the Inner Circle it's OK they can trust the Primaris Marines - without the Inner Circle deciding to send them to Deep Space where they might have an "accident". Primaris Masters are not Inner Circle, but Primaris Librarians are - not that you can hide the Inner Circle secrets from a mind-reading psyker - unless it's an Inquisitor, IG battle psyker, or other chapter's librarian I guess.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 05:38:23


Post by: Vilehydra


Biggest thing for me that primaris don't have (and I hope they don't get) are embedded special weapons. Having to chew out a couple of boltgun wielding marines before getting to the special weapons hurts way less then losing hellblasters/aggressors/inceptors off of the initial salvo.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 05:48:07


Post by: BrianDavion


Spoiler:
Breton wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.

I can agree an everything but BA death company. I’m some what hoping that the Primaris BA don’t go “bad” and mutate to madness like minimarines. Rather, I’m kind of hoping death company gets kept as a legacy unit. The
Primaris would mutate into “functional” berzerkers and use a similar color/design scheme.


If Wulfen/Deathcompany are in, Death Company/Wulfen are in. If Wulfen/Death Company are out, Death Company/Wulfen are out.

They've given the idea that Primaris are more stable, and don't have the gene issues 1.0 Marines have. They might try and say the Black Rage is psychic and not Genetic. The Red Thirst is supposedly genetic, but rarely shows up in games/editions outside of fluff.

Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Wolf Guard are all special versions of a pre-existing unit or unit archetype. Jump Assault Troops, Terminators, etc. The Primaris Dread already has a Plasma Option which WAS DA specific.

Ravenguard and White Scars will need some form of Calvarly/Bike unit (and land/air/hover two seat+ speeders for Ravenwing) to maintain their flavor/theme. Again these are most often special versions (i.e. an iconography upgrade pack and a basic box) of a currently existing unit.

The DA BatJets are seperate - far more than an iconography pack. The SW Jets are seperate. The Baal Pred, Deathwing/Ravenwing Knights, Bjorn/Murderfang, and DC Dread are between special and seperate... they also need a weapon upgrade sprue.

The special characters will become a combination of phased out the same way as 1.0 - i.e. they'll become worse and worse until we quit using them and won't care when GW quits making rules - or Primaris-ified like Marneus. I suspect it will be done in a way to match them to a new unit - in keeping with the current Primaris Captains and Lieutenants they usually have similar Master Crafted gear to their unit types - and the ones that don't match the new unit will be the ones to die. Some of this will turn out to be laughably comical - i.e. Bjorn will be pulled out of his Dread in the hopes of becoming a Primaris Marine will restore him to full health, only to have the procedure not work and they have to emergency-sarcophagize the guy in a Redemptor Dread. They can't write him off, and they can't leave him in an old Dread He's too Central to SW lore.

Torias Telion and Quietus are easily converted into a Phobos Eliminator.

Dante is 1,100+ years old and a Jump Pack marine. If they don't make a decent Jump Pack Marine - well BA players are already going to be hopping mad, what's killing off their ancient Chapter Master who still had a Strategy Rating of 5, while all the Strategy Rating 6 chapter masters deferred to... his strategies? Shrike will be in the same boat as Dante, perhaps more so.

Lysander is easy to turn into a Bolt-storm Aggressor, especially one that can take advantage of their Chapter Tactic while using the Auto-BoltStorms + allow it for any Aggressors within 6" to make him different than Calgar?

Pedro Kantor - was practically a Gravis captain before there were Gravis Captains. And Hooray, he gets a free power sword he won't need now.

Chronus is unlikely to make the switch unless they add a lot of Primaris tank vehicles.

Sicarius will be replaced by Decimus Felix.

Khan and Hestan will be upgraded to Primaris versions.

Azrael possibly turns into a Hellblaster, since I doubt they'll keep combi-weapons.

Helbrect, the Emperor's Champion, and Grimaldus are easy swaps.

The Librarians are easy swaps - though Tiggy is getting writing-on-the-wall fluff recently about how much various acts of heroism are aging him.

Asmodai probably gets a massive send-off to be replaced by a new Primaris Interrogator Chaplain named - not because there's anything wrong with Asmodai, but just so some special characters die and get replaced in each book and players can't scream favoritism.

Cassius is likely on his last leg. He's also old and probably gets more play in DeathWatch than Ultramarines. Tyrranic War vets not making the jump from the Index to the Codex- even without generalized rules for monstrous creatures to include Demons is portentous.

Tycho - name ripoff aside - has always been someone GW can't figure out what to do with - and could finally find a niche as a Phobos Captain he already sort of looks like one.

The Space Wolves and the Ultras probably lose the most characters, just because they have the most to lose- especially the Wolves as they have the most that are so similar.

If they're planning ahead, the Talonmaster will become either Landspeeder or Whatever-replaces-bikes field-able.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:


you've read wrong. Cawl claimed to have solved all the problems inheriant, but it seems he over sold. as for the dark angels. IIRC Primaris Captains are Inner circle. and eventually the dark angels are gonna start trusting Primaris Marines. at the very least there'll come a time when the primaris marines are one recruited in house



I Think I've already seen fluff about DA Primaris Marines figuring out at least part of the Inner Circle's secret and trying to figure out how to tell the Inner Circle it's OK they can trust the Primaris Marines - without the Inner Circle deciding to send them to Deep Space where they might have an "accident". Primaris Masters are not Inner Circle, but Primaris Librarians are - not that you can hide the Inner Circle secrets from a mind-reading psyker - unless it's an Inquisitor, IG battle psyker, or other chapter's librarian I guess.


Death company I honestly agree are unnesscary as they could easy be reconfigured into a stratigium that could be applied to ANY unit. Sanguiary guard and wolf guard are basicly a form of honor guard to a degree but are pretty differant and worth keeping around, Wolf guard in specific are more simply space wolf veterns then terminators though, not all wold guard are in termy armor. as for them turning special characters into gerinic ones I doubt that'd happen, special characters may be made primaris but they won't just be made into "ohh he's a hellblasster now" I'd love to see a Primarised Dante, perhaps with his current weaponry but flying around in inceptor gear. that'd be pretty awesome


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 06:03:27


Post by: Breton


 Asherian Command wrote:


Aggressors are more of a Centurion like unit than a Terminator Unit.

Currently the primaris are lacking close assault units, close combat units, heavy infantry elite units. Elite Units in general that are from the first company, and chapter-specific units.


Aggressors are as much Terminator as they are Centurion. You're focused on the 2+ 5++ and I think they're cutting way back on 2+ and any ++. I'm not entirely sure why the Aggressors are Heavy Support not Elite, and didn't have a white helmet.

Not counting the Shadowspear Phobos units - which weren't around when the codex was written - the current UM 2nd Company - the This is what a company looks like example - has Intercessors, Tacticals, Assaults, Inceptors, Devastators, and Hell Blasters.

Making it pretty obvious Intercessors = Tacticals, Inceptors = Assaults and Hellblasters = Devastators.

Now, if we assume the First Company of the prototypical chapter i.e. Ultramarines still have the Veteran Units - Termies, Vanguard, Sternguard - and this is an assumption I'm not sure will hold up over the long term -

Reivers are both Elite on the shoulderpad and the codex - in power armor but not jump packs. Reivers = Sternguard (bolt carbine) or less likely Vanguard (grav chute plus combat knife), or very unlikely both comparing their two/two options.

Aggressors at Elite on the codex, and Heavy Support on shoulder could be either Termies, or Centurions or possibly both. Centurions, like Tycho have never really had a secure niche, they could drop both Termies and Centurions for Aggressors. Centurions were in a no-man's land of not being part of either First company or Other Company prototype lists.

Scouts = Shadowspear Phobos - this is pretty obvious. Sniper Eliminators, Infiltrator Bolter Scouts - and no whining about not having a carapace armored captain, librarian, or lieutenant. Chaplains... oops. But chaplains are bad right now anyway.


LRC/Razorback = Repulsor

LR/Razorback = Repulsor Executioner

Rhino = The rumored blurry tank on the video.

Without knowing what the blurred out thing suspected to be the Primarhino is - it's hard to place the rest of the Repulsors on the scale. Depending on guns, and trasport capacity and price, either of the current ones could be the Razorback or a Land Raider replacement. IT could even be that they're all a little of both and create a unique paradigm. If the Primarhino is virtually no guns transport 10, the LR is the Repulsor, and the Executioner is a Land Raider hybrid that went Razorback variant instead of Crusader. if the Primarirhino is no guns transport 16 then all bets are off and they mixed and matched everything.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 06:31:50


Post by: Apple Peel


Breton wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.

I can agree an everything but BA death company. I’m some what hoping that the Primaris BA don’t go “bad” and mutate to madness like minimarines. Rather, I’m kind of hoping death company gets kept as a legacy unit. The
Primaris would mutate into “functional” berzerkers and use a similar color/design scheme.


If Wulfen/Deathcompany are in, Death Company/Wulfen are in. If Wulfen/Death Company are out, Death Company/Wulfen are out.

They've given the idea that Primaris are more stable, and don't have the gene issues 1.0 Marines have. They might try and say the Black Rage is psychic and not Genetic. The Red Thirst is supposedly genetic, but rarely shows up in games/editions outside of fluff.

I didn’t say anything about Wulfen. I have a different idea for them.

I think the classic death company idea should be retired. They would be replaced with Primaris berzerkers. They emulate many of the old death company colors and design as an homage, but are not actually mad. They are specially mind-trained to go into an almost Khornate berzerker rage at a moment’s notice, and they can be somewhat quickly snapped out of it. It is easy to trigger, however, and these marines live much more secluded lives to not be a risk to their brothers. I don’t know if it would be a voluntary process one could strive for or if it would be an honor bestowed to skilled warriors.

On the Wulfen lines—don’t the Space Wolves have some weird rituals for becoming a SW space marine? Also, don’t they have some weird planetary life force or something that the Rune Priests use? Just some strange reason that this planet force overpowers the new marine and turns them into mega-Wulfen or something.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 06:44:52


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:


Death company I honestly agree are unnesscary as they could easy be reconfigured into a stratigium that could be applied to ANY unit. Sanguiary guard and wolf guard are basicly a form of honor guard to a degree but are pretty differant and worth keeping around, Wolf guard in specific are more simply space wolf veterns then terminators though, not all wold guard are in termy armor. as for them turning special characters into gerinic ones I doubt that'd happen, special characters may be made primaris but they won't just be made into "ohh he's a hellblasster now" I'd love to see a Primarised Dante, perhaps with his current weaponry but flying around in inceptor gear. that'd be pretty awesome


Turning Death Company into a Stratagem is certainly possible- but it can't be applied to ANY unit. And they don't have units it should be applied to yet. Well, BP/Combat Knife Reivers MAYBE. Many of the Special Characters are already just a souped up troop unit. Lysander with a TH/SS in Terminator Armor? Shrike with a jump pack and twin Lightning Claws? Pedro with a Power fist and Bolter? Can you say Tactical Sergeant?

I suspect many of these special characters are conceived of in this manner - Oh, they're a captain/chapter master. What did they do before they were a captain (Or in the case of someone like Uriel Ventris- what did their mentor they replaced in a sad Time Marches On Story do). What unit don't we already have a special character for in this book? Lets fluff them out as that's how they made a name for themselves, and now that they're in charge, they're going to keep that iconic loadout from their early success. I think the Primaris generic characters followed that pattern. Thus why the Vanguard Captain looks/plays like an Infiltrator, and the Lieutenant looks/plays like a Reiver. I think that's the pattern they're going with now, and the revamped special characters will follow the same pattern. The design team will ask.. what kind of troops does this guy lead? Lets make him a souped up version of that.

As mentioned they've avoided combi-weapons on Primaris. So Azrael's Lion's Wrath will probably get dropped and broken by a Watcher In The Dark while Azrael is being operated on. It was a combi-plasma. DA are known for Plasma. Hellblaster!

They've avoided Thunderhammers and Stormshields on Primaris. Lysander's Fist of Dorn is out. But IF are known for Bolter Discipline, and Aggressors have Bolt Storm Guantlets. That don't work with Bolter Discipline. Rather than changing either, make Lysander an Aggressor that can use both Boltstorm and Bolter Discipline, and teach other Aggressors while they're right next to him.

Shrike probably isn't going to become an Inceptor. There's nothing out yet that really fits him though there probable will before its over. Or he could fail to cross the Rubicon, and so soon as his promotion.

Primaris Dante would be cool, definitely. But the Jump Pack, Inferno Pistol and the Axe are all problems. My first inclination is to say the pistol more than the Axe, but the Axe of Ultramar used to be a thing, while the new Victrix Guard have power swords. (And Storm Shields now that I think about it - but they're also a bodyguard for the rare unit they already do allow ++ saves for... ) I don't think they kill off Dante and Tycho at the same time. Maybe they don't kill off either. Each has reasons to be killed off. Killing off Dante, the leader of Imperium Nihilus? Secondus? Whatever they named the side of the rift he's on, especially while a successor Chapter Master, Gabriel Seth, that only he, Dante, can really keep in check has his, Seth's, codpiece in a twist over Primaris Marines would go a long way towards an emotional roller coaster lowpoint in the GrimDark setting. Some of this will come down to what the Jump Pack Assault Marine replacement will be. But I suspect if Dante does become Primaris, his wargear changes dramatically. The popularity of Melta in BA alone is likely to change. If they're smart the new Jump Pack Marine will have Melta as their second option. Plasma is king this edition, but the King of the Mountain changes every expansion, and Primaris are so far extremely locked into Plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Apple Peel wrote:

I didn’t say anything about Wulfen. I have a different idea for them.

I think the classic death company idea should be retired. They would be replaced with Primaris berzerkers. They emulate many of the old death company colors and design as an homage, but are not actually mad. They are specially mind-trained to go into an almost Khornate berzerker rage at a moment’s notice, and they can be somewhat quickly snapped out of it. It is easy to trigger, however, and these marines live much more secluded lives to not be a risk to their brothers. I don’t know if it would be a voluntary process one could strive for or if it would be an honor bestowed to skilled warriors.

On the Wulfen lines—don’t the Space Wolves have some weird rituals for becoming a SW space marine? Also, don’t they have some weird planetary life force or something that the Rune Priests use? Just some strange reason that this planet force overpowers the new marine and turns them into mega-Wulfen or something.


You said you could agree with all (including Wulfen) but Death Company. I pointed out Death Company and Wulfen are similar "secret shames". I don't see them spreading berzerker away from Khornate troops.

On the weird ritual - Its about the same. You drink the Blood of Sanguinius/Canis Helix from the Red Grail/Cup of Wulfen which activates the gene-seed implants.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 07:19:24


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Breton wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


unique primaris units will come down the road. right now GW needs to do the core lineup. I expect once we get the gravis armor update (much like how the vanguard are a Phobis armor update) we'll start seeing more chapter specific units. we've already gotten chapter specific stuff in the form of the Victrix Guard. I expect we'll see Primaris unique units down the line. certainly well before they get rid of old Marines. which I don't think it going to happen for a looong time. NBow we might starty to see some old units effectively given to primaris. stuff like "well Primaris can become Wulfen too. use the old minis" etc. the smaller size might be slightly jarring but.. *shrugs* off the top of my head I expect we're going to see the following unique units first among the chapters.

Blood Angels: Primaris Sanguinary Guard and death company.

Dark Angels: A Primaris Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Space Wolves: Primaris Wolfguard and maybe Wulfen.


those 6 unique units would honestly cover the bases for the snowflake chapters. it'd not be perfect but it'd give GW something to build on for them. But I really do think GW's going to double dip for ages to come.

I can agree an everything but BA death company. I’m some what hoping that the Primaris BA don’t go “bad” and mutate to madness like minimarines. Rather, I’m kind of hoping death company gets kept as a legacy unit. The
Primaris would mutate into “functional” berzerkers and use a similar color/design scheme.


If Wulfen/Deathcompany are in, Death Company/Wulfen are in. If Wulfen/Death Company are out, Death Company/Wulfen are out.

They've given the idea that Primaris are more stable, and don't have the gene issues 1.0 Marines have. They might try and say the Black Rage is psychic and not Genetic. The Red Thirst is supposedly genetic, but rarely shows up in games/editions outside of fluff.

Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Wolf Guard are all special versions of a pre-existing unit or unit archetype. Jump Assault Troops, Terminators, etc. The Primaris Dread already has a Plasma Option which WAS DA specific.

Ravenguard and White Scars will need some form of Calvarly/Bike unit (and land/air/hover two seat+ speeders for Ravenwing) to maintain their flavor/theme. Again these are most often special versions (i.e. an iconography upgrade pack and a basic box) of a currently existing unit.

The DA BatJets are seperate - far more than an iconography pack. The SW Jets are seperate. The Baal Pred, Deathwing/Ravenwing Knights, Bjorn/Murderfang, and DC Dread are between special and seperate... they also need a weapon upgrade sprue.

The special characters will become a combination of phased out the same way as 1.0 - i.e. they'll become worse and worse until we quit using them and won't care when GW quits making rules - or Primaris-ified like Marneus. I suspect it will be done in a way to match them to a new unit - in keeping with the current Primaris Captains and Lieutenants they usually have similar Master Crafted gear to their unit types - and the ones that don't match the new unit will be the ones to die. Some of this will turn out to be laughably comical - i.e. Bjorn will be pulled out of his Dread in the hopes of becoming a Primaris Marine will restore him to full health, only to have the procedure not work and they have to emergency-sarcophagize the guy in a Redemptor Dread. They can't write him off, and they can't leave him in an old Dread He's too Central to SW lore.

Torias Telion and Quietus are easily converted into a Phobos Eliminator.

Dante is 1,100+ years old and a Jump Pack marine. If they don't make a decent Jump Pack Marine - well BA players are already going to be hopping mad, what's killing off their ancient Chapter Master who still had a Strategy Rating of 5, while all the Strategy Rating 6 chapter masters deferred to... his strategies? Shrike will be in the same boat as Dante, perhaps more so.

Lysander is easy to turn into a Bolt-storm Aggressor, especially one that can take advantage of their Chapter Tactic while using the Auto-BoltStorms + allow it for any Aggressors within 6" to make him different than Calgar?

Pedro Kantor - was practically a Gravis captain before there were Gravis Captains. And Hooray, he gets a free power sword he won't need now.

Chronus is unlikely to make the switch unless they add a lot of Primaris tank vehicles.

Sicarius will be replaced by Decimus Felix.

Khan and Hestan will be upgraded to Primaris versions.

Azrael possibly turns into a Hellblaster, since I doubt they'll keep combi-weapons.

Helbrect, the Emperor's Champion, and Grimaldus are easy swaps.

The Librarians are easy swaps - though Tiggy is getting writing-on-the-wall fluff recently about how much various acts of heroism are aging him.

Asmodai probably gets a massive send-off to be replaced by a new Primaris Interrogator Chaplain named - not because there's anything wrong with Asmodai, but just so some special characters die and get replaced in each book and players can't scream favoritism.

Cassius is likely on his last leg. He's also old and probably gets more play in DeathWatch than Ultramarines. Tyrranic War vets not making the jump from the Index to the Codex- even without generalized rules for monstrous creatures to include Demons is portentous.

Tycho - name ripoff aside - has always been someone GW can't figure out what to do with - and could finally find a niche as a Phobos Captain he already sort of looks like one.

The Space Wolves and the Ultras probably lose the most characters, just because they have the most to lose- especially the Wolves as they have the most that are so similar.

If they're planning ahead, the Talonmaster will become either Landspeeder or Whatever-replaces-bikes field-able.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:


you've read wrong. Cawl claimed to have solved all the problems inheriant, but it seems he over sold. as for the dark angels. IIRC Primaris Captains are Inner circle. and eventually the dark angels are gonna start trusting Primaris Marines. at the very least there'll come a time when the primaris marines are one recruited in house



I Think I've already seen fluff about DA Primaris Marines figuring out at least part of the Inner Circle's secret and trying to figure out how to tell the Inner Circle it's OK they can trust the Primaris Marines - without the Inner Circle deciding to send them to Deep Space where they might have an "accident". Primaris Masters are not Inner Circle, but Primaris Librarians are - not that you can hide the Inner Circle secrets from a mind-reading psyker - unless it's an Inquisitor, IG battle psyker, or other chapter's librarian I guess.


Tycho... The guy that has been dead since the third war for Armageddon???

Maybe captain Invictus of the ultramarines will come back from the dead also on that logic.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 07:33:38


Post by: Breton


endlesswaltz123 wrote:


Tycho... The guy that has been dead since the third war for Armageddon???

Maybe captain Invictus of the ultramarines will come back from the dead also on that logic.


Ironically, Captain Invictus now has a kitbashable model potential with Tartaros Terminators. Tycho's nebulous status is why he's one of the ones who could end up being dropped during the switch. They've never had a clear niche or plan to find one for him. Is he the 3rd company captain? Is he a Death Company Captain? Is he dead? Is he alive and still getting data sheets several editions later? Is he just a stick to poke Star Wars fans with?


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 08:01:08


Post by: BrianDavion


Tycho is dead. he was the third company captain and fell to the black rage in the third war. and then died.


Aggressors are as much Terminator as they are Centurion. You're focused on the 2+ 5++ and I think they're cutting way back on 2+ and any ++. I'm not entirely sure why the Aggressors are Heavy Support not Elite, and didn't have a white helmet.
because they're orginizationally NOT 1st company veterns. they're fire support wearing armor with additional weaponry added to provide additional support for the marines. They fill the EXACT same role in Marine orginization charts as centurions with a anti personal weapons loadout.


Not counting the Shadowspear Phobos units - which weren't around when the codex was written - the current UM 2nd Company - the This is what a company looks like example - has Intercessors, Tacticals, Assaults, Inceptors, Devastators, and Hell Blasters.


And guess what that imagine doesn't show in 2nd company as well? Centurions.

Making it pretty obvious Intercessors = Tacticals, Inceptors = Assaults and Hellblasters = Devastators.


well given that intercessors are listed as line troops, inceptors as close support (just like assault marines) and hell blasters are heavy support, this... is pretty much spelled out in the codex.


Reivers are both Elite on the shoulderpad and the codex - in power armor but not jump packs. Reivers = Sternguard (bolt carbine) or less likely Vanguard (grav chute plus combat knife), or very unlikely both comparing their two/two options.


No they're not Reivers are classed as close support. and have that symbol on them. (go look at the 360 image of the reiver on the GW website, they have the same squad type symbol as assault squads)

Aggressors at Elite on the codex, and Heavy Support on shoulder could be either Termies, or Centurions or possibly both. Centurions, like Tycho have never really had a secure niche, they could drop both Termies and Centurions for Aggressors. Centurions were in a no-man's land of not being part of either First company or Other Company prototype lists.


Because centurions where something your devestator marine squads wore when they needed extra firepower at the expense of mobility. JUST LIKE AN AGRESSOR SQUAD.

Your entire thesis is based on faulty circular logic. GW tells us aggressors are not the elites, and instead fill a fire support role.








What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 08:06:19


Post by: Ishagu


A Primaris only codex with all chapters included can give chapters like BA, DA and SWs a unique unit or two, and a couple of unique characters to all chapters and it would still be more streamlined and manageable than just the regular Astartes codex with the vanilla chapters.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 08:24:57


Post by: BrianDavion


 Ishagu wrote:
A Primaris only codex with all chapters included can give chapters like BA, DA and SWs a unique unit or two, and a couple of unique characters to all chapters and it would still be more streamlined and manageable than just the regular Astartes codex with the vanilla chapters.


the problem withg that, from a busniess POV for GW is it would rapidly lead to a "the end is neigh" mentality around space Marine players. even if GW was simply doing it to ease book keeping and avoid having a phone book sized codex with no intent on ditching old Marines. now granetd GW could dispell that easily eneugh if at the same time as a Primaris only codex they release a brand new set of old Marines (I dunno maybe an updated terminator)


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 08:44:42


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
Tycho is dead. he was the third company captain and fell to the black rage in the third war. and then died.
Just ask his new datasheet(s). This is a discussion of changing/swapping datasheets as we move from 1.0's to Primaris right?




And guess what that imagine doesn't show in 2nd company as well? Centurions.
So you're saying that proves Aggressors are the replacement for Centurions. Because neither show up in the Class Photo of the Second Company? If only I had pointed out Centurions were in some sort of No-Man's-Land. Maybe you could have snipped that part out to pretend I hadn't made that point myself.

Making it pretty obvious Intercessors = Tacticals, Inceptors = Assaults and Hellblasters = Devastators.


well given that intercessors are listed as line troops, inceptors as close support (just like assault marines) and hell blasters are heavy support, this... is pretty much spelled out in the codex.


I'm pretty sure Scouts are "pretty much spelled out in the codex" as Line Troops, and Intercessors ≠ Scouts. But Kudos to you for getting snarky about establishing a baseline. At least you didn't snip the part where this was expanded on Scouts being = to Eliminators and Infiltra... wait I thought I DID say something about that? Oh yeah, I did. But hey, I'm sure you wouldn't selectively snip to cherry pick something for an easy "point".


Your entire thesis is based on faulty circular logic. GW tells us aggressors are not the elites, and instead fill a fire support role.
Everything you disagree with is based on faulty circular logic it appears. My "entire thesis" is that Aggressors probably are the replacement for (Shooty) Terminators, could also be the replacement for (Assault) Centurions, and it's entirely possible neither Terminators nor Centurions get a direct one-for-one replacement - and taken one step further it's entirely possible the whole First Company gets special units thing may go away - there are entire Primaris Only Chapters who have zero terminators or Van/Stern -guard Veterans - do they have a first company, or did they start at 2? Oh sorry, that's one of those false dichotomies you like - for example the Aggressors can only replace Terminators OR Centurions.

No they're not Reivers are classed as close support. and have that symbol on them. (go look at the 360 image of the reiver on the GW website, they have the same squad type symbol as assault squads)

Damn. I saw some that had the Elite/Crux waterslide, and finally relaxed having "figured out" what the hell they were for. Now I'm back to wondering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
A Primaris only codex with all chapters included can give chapters like BA, DA and SWs a unique unit or two, and a couple of unique characters to all chapters and it would still be more streamlined and manageable than just the regular Astartes codex with the vanilla chapters.


the problem with that, from a business POV for GW is it would rapidly lead to a "the end is nigh" mentality around space Marine players. even if GW was simply doing it to ease book keeping and avoid having a phone book sized codex with no intent on ditching old Marines. now granted GW could dispel that easily enough if at the same time as a Primaris only codex they release a brand new set of old Marines (I dunno maybe an updated terminator)


That's not the only problem. It would drastically shrink the part of the world the players get to interact with. It would probably drastically increase the usage of those special units above and beyond what you see now, to emphasize each chapter's uniqueness in some sort of passive aggressive protest. Of course for some, it would be an upgrade. That's two special units and one special character more than the non- UM/BT chapters have now. Of course, you thought the BA/DA/UM/SW players would "end is nigh" scream about losing their tactical marines, wait until they find out they can't pick between a named Chapter Master, Company Captain, Librarian, and Chaplain any more - Let alone the minor Telion/Chronus/Corbulo "You get two choices someone else will pick for you for the rest of your days. Oh, you liked Ezekiel? Too bad, for DA we picked Belial and Asmodai, because of all the people who play Fallen.". "Oh you like Dante? Whoops, we picked Astorath, and Lemartes. Because we like the Death Company better than the Sanguinary Guard. Maybe next time.". And it would either make all the chapters veritable clones of each other, or be just as bloated as several codexes stacked on top of each other with all the If you do X, you can do Y rules to get the same variety the current chapters can/should do. I already feel sorry enough for Dark Angel, White Scar, and CWE players fighting against choosing fluffy thematic or Command Point generating armies.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 09:55:43


Post by: BrianDavion


Check out your space Marine codex again, despite being in the troop slot, Scouts are not listed in the listing of "battleline" units. Primaris require you to mentally adjust some thinking, Space Marine players used to have it pretty easy with the roles units had falling nicely into the same role they had in the chapter orginization, troops where battleline, fast attack where close support, heavy support was heavy etc. Primaris is shaking up this a little. Reivers are elites, but they're "close support" supressors are heavy support, but take up the fast attack slot. GW is thinking outside the box in some areas with Primaris marines. IMHO we should proably expect suprises


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 10:38:43


Post by: Mr Morden


Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


Be a breath of fresh air if they do.

Get rid of all the pretend "unique " units - just give the options to base units - so any Tac marines can have chainswords etc Pysker Dreadnought are not just Blood Angels.
Keep any actual unusual units
Add stuff from the non super special Chapters - esp the other First Founding ones.



What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 12:24:58


Post by: Breton


 Mr Morden wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
If primaris marines are the only future and they replace old marine units and models in the codexes. My biggest fear is that GW will fold all space marine chapters in to one codex including space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels.

Because as it stands unless they make unique primaris units for different chapters beyond just weapons. There won't be any reason for different codexes.


Be a breath of fresh air if they do.

Get rid of all the pretend "unique " units - just give the options to base units - so any Tac marines can have chainswords etc Pysker Dreadnought are not just Blood Angels.
Keep any actual unusual units
Add stuff from the non super special Chapters - esp the other First Founding ones.



Crusader Squads are about more than the chainswords - Ravenwing units aren't unique because of the feathered fairing- nor are they as unique as they used to be with Bikes, Attack Bike, Landspeeder all one squad - and I see both sides. Most chapters are not known for sending Tac Squads out with chainswords mag-clamped onto their backpack but it's not exactly hard to believe any strike cruiser or battlebarge doesn't have a hundred or more of the things in an armory such that any chapter COULD.

I think you could get Librarian Dreads from Forgeworld, and I'm pretty sure you can still get Chaplain Dreads. Which I agree totally makes sense for every chapter. Oh. it's a dying Librarian we could rush into a Dread. But we're not Blood Angels. Tough Luck, Brother Mentallus. Oh well, at least we can harvest your geneseed.

The Furioso (Two CCW Arm) Dread has been in enough video games it also should be universal. It's already been done with Vanguard Veterans, and went the other direction on Sternguard Vets. There should be enough truly unique things like the Dark Angel BatJets and Space Wolf flying bricks - for each chapter - so that any theme'ed army from that chapter - I want to see a close combat Dread with a giant Jump Pack for the Raven Gaurd - should be able to use a couple without working at it, but not feel like they have to take all of them all every time.

Another option is price changes based on chapter. Tactical Ultramarines have to pay for a Chainsword, but Black Templars get the chainsword for free. Of course this is what will make that codex 5 times the size.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/13 23:11:27


Post by: fraser1191


How many unique units should a faction have though?

Probably around 3 or so in my opinion. An HQ and 2 or so unique units. Ideally they would play off of their corresponding trait as well creating actually different play styles between say Ultramarines and imperial fists


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 01:17:14


Post by: Lemondish


 fraser1191 wrote:
How many unique units should a faction have though?

Probably around 3 or so in my opinion. An HQ and 2 or so unique units. Ideally they would play off of their corresponding trait as well creating actually different play styles between say Ultramarines and imperial fists


I'd be super happy if the next step was to follow Primaris Calgar and bring the updated special characters alongside a chapter themed Honour Guard.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 01:19:33


Post by: BrianDavion


Lemondish wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
How many unique units should a faction have though?

Probably around 3 or so in my opinion. An HQ and 2 or so unique units. Ideally they would play off of their corresponding trait as well creating actually different play styles between say Ultramarines and imperial fists


I'd be super happy if the next step was to follow Primaris Calgar and bring the updated special characters alongside a chapter themed Honour Guard.


me too, I doubt we'll see a p[rimarisified Logan Grimnar, his plastic mini is too new, but a primaris dante and azrael would be spiffy.



What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 04:25:33


Post by: Crimson Devil


I would guess Ragnar will be Primarisized.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 04:42:33


Post by: Breton


 fraser1191 wrote:
How many unique units should a faction have though?

Probably around 3 or so in my opinion. An HQ and 2 or so unique units. Ideally they would play off of their corresponding trait as well creating actually different play styles between say Ultramarines and imperial fists


It depends on the factions you're talking about.

CWE and Dark Angels? They should all be unique. Dark Angels - known for Treasure Troves of Dark Age of Technology goodies vs an all new Primaris Only chapter? Quite a few. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists? Not very many until you get into Special Characters.

As for Special Characters, every Chapter they make rules for should have the Chapter Master, a Company Captain, the Top Chaplain, and the Top Librarian (or equivalent) - and there should be a few archetype "special characters" to be sprinkled between units like a Vet Sgt upgrade that are unique but <CHAPTER> compliant. They shouldn't do much but add a little flavor, and/or a unique tweak that's fluffy but outside the norm fluffy - Chronus/Telion-when-he-replaced-a-scout-sgt types.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 04:46:02


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


I would be pretty okay with some of the chapter masters with older sculptures getting replaced with brand new chapter masters. Of course, that is pretty easy for me to say given I don't have any the models for them. Still, I think it would be a good time to introduce new characters here and there just to show that space marines (even the important ones) do actually die. I figure is a model is getting close to driving age most players have got their money's worth and it might be worthwhile injecting some new blood into the Characters that are out in the galaxy.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 05:13:13


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:


me too, I doubt we'll see a p[rimarisified Logan Grimnar, his plastic mini is too new, but a primaris dante and azrael would be spiffy.



Eventually all of the Special characters will be Primaris-ified, or killed and replaced with new characters to fill the old role. A 10 man Intercessor and a 10 man Tactical squad are roughly equivalent on points - other 1.0 and Primaris units are similar - and not quite as equivalent on value but close enough. If your special character you're running the squad with is Primaris, you run the Primaris unit and a Repulsor. If the SC is 1.0 you run it with the 1.0 squad and a Rhino or a Land Raider variant. They're not going to cancel 1.0 Marines, they're going to let us do it, and they're going to make it EASY for us to do it. That's why the newly minted Reserve Company Marine driving a Repulsor has the clout to tell Azrael to get his butt out of a Primaris Repulsor and why Primaris Marneus can't fit in a Land Raider.

Marneus was easy. We already have Aggressors with auto bolt storm two fisted death, he was already a Terminator with two fisted death - and a - I forget where they stashed the 4++ was it the Laurels? - so scale, invuln, weaponry and size rules were already pretty well taken care of. Azrael and Dante are being held up by their wargear. There isn't a melee jump pack unit to inspire/starting point a new Dante sculpt, plus the Melta Pistol, plus the axe (SW have a lot of power axes, Blood Angels not so much). Primaris aren't using combi-weapons which is tough for Azrael, Logan is probably held up over debate on what to do with his dogsled. Enough Space Wolves have power axes already that Morkai isn't an issue. Ragnar will Primaris-ify fast. Dude on foot with a generic bolt pistol and special chainsword? Easy peasy.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 05:14:31


Post by: DanielFM


An absolute minimum is giving Imperial Fists a Chapter Master model. I don't care if it's a new character or the existing one.
Lysander is not enough as a captain. It feels underwhelming to have him as the most important special character in your army.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 05:18:42


Post by: Breton


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I would be pretty okay with some of the chapter masters with older sculptures getting replaced with brand new chapter masters. Of course, that is pretty easy for me to say given I don't have any the models for them. Still, I think it would be a good time to introduce new characters here and there just to show that space marines (even the important ones) do actually die. I figure is a model is getting close to driving age most players have got their money's worth and it might be worthwhile injecting some new blood into the Characters that are out in the galaxy.


They do die. But they may not go away. The Ultramarines First Captain was killed Shakespeare style (off screen) when they introduced Tyranids. Captain Invictus never had a model though. And ironically now potentially does have one that can be kitbashed with the Plasma Blaster. Tycho died. Sort of. He's still around, and playable, but he's officially dead. And dying in 40K could be even less permanent than dying on General Hospital. Lord Solar Macharius for the guard is dead. Creed may or may not be, maybe even wishes he was. Sicarius from the UM Second Company was assumed dead, replaced, and came back to find out there's a new Captain in town - probably because making a named 2nd company captain of the prototype paint scheme everyone plays, frequently with a DIY Captain, or Calgar was a mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DanielFM wrote:
An absolute minimum is giving Imperial Fists a Chapter Master model. I don't care if it's a new character or the existing one.
Lysander is not enough as a captain. It feels underwhelming to have him as the most important special character in your army.


Every Chapter they're going to flesh out should have a Chapter Master, Iconic Company Captain, Top Chaplain, and Top Libby - Well except Black Templars maybe..


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 05:33:22


Post by: BrianDavion


actually the reason for removing Sicarius was so they should show off the gravis captain in 2nd company colours. IMHO there's some evidance pointing towards Cato Sicarius getting primarisized VERY soon. the evidance is two fold now that we know it can be done.

First off all, we're finally getting a novel revealing what happened to him, that will, presumably bring him back into play. Secondly, and this is something that I think a lot of people missed. Sicarius was replaced by a Primaris Captain named Archean (or something) the same primaris captain whom was (presumably) killed in Shadowspear.


What do Primaris lack? (New Models) @ 2019/07/14 05:38:15


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:
actually the reason for removing Sicarius was so they should show off the gravis captain in 2nd company colours. IMHO there's some evidance pointing towards Cato Sicarius getting primarisized VERY soon. the evidance is two fold now that we know it can be done.

First off all, we're finally getting a novel revealing what happened to him, that will, presumably bring him back into play. Secondly, and this is something that I think a lot of people missed. Sicarius was replaced by a Primaris Captain named Archean (or something) the same primaris captain whom was (presumably) killed in Shadowspear.


That was pretty much what I just said? They didn't want a specific Captain in charge of the default color scheme? Sicarius may well be Primaris-ified but I think they make him a floating captain Equerry to Guilliman or something other than the 2nd Company Captain so people can still run a DIY 2nd Company Captain as either Primaris, Phobos, Gravis, OR 1.0 (Assorted).