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Frankly, I'm glad there's no bikers or "assault squads".

Making Bikers and Jump Packs the hallmarks of two interesting and unique Chapters(Raven Guard and White Scars) was a mistake from the outset. The stuff we saw with the Tau campaign in 7th actually made for unique and interesting playstyles.

As for what they're lacking, I don't know. They aren't done with the range yet.

Depending on what the Lasfusil does Primaris are really only missing a solid melee unit.

Reivers are close, give or take power weapon options on the Sergeant, but they're not mobile enough. (Although as has been mentioned they do have very similar set of jets to the Suppressors, so a higher speed/fly is something they could easily pick up.)

I don't know that they actually care so much about a cheap transport since Infiltrators can just deploy on top of whatever objective you'd want the transport to get them to in the first place.

Character.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Character.

Imsectum, the leutnants, they are the CHARACHTER of the army!

Aash wrote:
I don;t think the Primaris line-up is missing all that much tbh, one or two things, sure, but what I don't want to see is the kind of bloat and over-stuffed options of regular space marines being replicated with the Primaris line.

With the addition of the Shadowspear/Phobos units once it is fleshed out with full kits, the Repulsor Executioner, and what appears to be a new transport in the latest tease the only things really lacking are a melee specialist unit and a techmarine.

Melee specialists could easily be added by giving a new weapon loadout for Reivers and inceptors. (Power weapon options the Reiver Sgt and Inceptors armed with twin lightning claws instead of guns should do it).

Any thing else is really just additional bonuses, but what the all-Primaris army really lacks is good CC units.

You're thinking of the super-Vanilla chapters, plus the Blood Angels. Everything out already with a few kit tweaks could easily fill out Vanilla Trooper Marines, and Blood Angel lines. Add Angel wing bits, a force pike, and a right handed combat arm to Redemptors, plus the melee specialist tweaks you already mentioned and BA are pretty well set. The Vanilla Marines and Space Wolves pretty much already were.

But think about the less Vanilla chapters. White Scars, what do you think of? Bikes, and Outflanking Rhinos/Razorbacks. I suspect most people have some garbled Classic Western image of a horde of Native Americans kicking up a cloud of dust as they circle a wagon train- only Mongols instead of Native Americans, only on bikes instead of horses, only instead of a wagon train, its some sort of Drukhari slaver base camp.

You think of Dark Angels and what do you think of? You think of a Green Wing squad finding a Transformers 2 DVD and their Master calling Sammael about new rumors of The Fallen, Sammael comes out and runs genetic testing on the DVD to find out Cypher has a sense of humor, and was the last one to watch it, so he calls his pal Belial who rubs Han's lucky dice before making the jump to ludicrous speed, meanwhile Sammael starts driving a spiral search pattern on his jetbike leading a column of bike squads, Landspeeders, and Batman Jets to Teleport Beacon Belial and his Terminator Knights onto the maniacal laughter echoing down the hall of where Cypher used to be.

Primaris is a much further than a new sprue for a couple kits for either of those two.

Edit to Add - they're also missing some of the unique equipment - Stormwolves/fangs, Baal Repulsors, Bigger Batman Jets That sort of thing.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Character.

Imsectum, the leutnants, they are the CHARACHTER of the army!

A'ite, a'ite, noice.

Cheap transports.

As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.

Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.

Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.

I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.

Dudeface wrote:

Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.

I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.

It's all personal taste when all is said and done and I don't want to derail this thread into yet another bashing of Primaris aesthetic. Regret even bringing it up now lol.

I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.

I do sincerely hope that the existing SM aircraft make the jump with minimal modification, the Storm Raven in particular almost feels more like a Primaris option than a Vanilla Marine unit in the first place. The same is true of the Centurions for that matter. (Although those things need at least one more wound.)

Nvs wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Nvs wrote:
Just compare the traditional marines to the primaris marines and pick out what's still missing. I really hope the earliest pages of the next edition detail the destruction of Mars and how all manufacturing has been shifted elsewhere and Mankind can no longer make things like Aggressors, Inceptors, and such.

I hope future Primaris models are more similar to the traditional models than really far out there like the above which really detracts from the brand imo.

I'd love to see terminators and assault terminators though.

I really don't see how they're that far detached from the rest of the range? If you gave a terminator a bigger jump pack you get an inceptor essentially.

More importantly centurions are far more out there as a concept than anything primaris, same for the baby carrier or a sled pulled by wolves.

It's all personal taste when all is said and done and I don't want to derail this thread into yet another bashing of Primaris aesthetic. Regret even bringing it up now lol.

I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.

ahh but do you think they should look like..


or like


or perhaps like


or perhaps even




terminator armor has appered in several varients, I'm not even including the custodes or grey knights patterns. so there definatly be room to do a Primaris Terminator armor that is quite visually distinct while also reckonziably of "terminator linniage"

All true, but for the past 25 years the majority of GWs aesthetic hasn't changed that much for Space Marines. It's so important to their brand that more people know what Space Marines are than the company who makes them or even the game they belong to.

It's also telling that every image you linked was for a non-mainstream FW art/model as opposed to main GW proper. Even the omgwtf ugly original Space Hulk terminators have more in common with current Terminators than the ones you linked.

When I think 40k the main things that come to mind immediately are Rhinos, Terminators, Space Marines, and Dreadnaughts. Departing from their brand is a mistake thus the huge outcry for the Primaris we've seen since their premier. It was a mistake and it's not too late to correct it. IMO anyway.

That's why I would love to buy a few Primaris kits but can only really get 2 that don't stray too far away from what I expect a Space Marine to look like.

And like I said, this is entirely my opinion as the aesthetics of an army is entirely up to personal preference. But I'm 40 years old and I want my Space Marines to look like the ones I got 25 years ago.

Nvs wrote:
All true, but for the past 25 years the majority of GWs aesthetic hasn't changed that much for Space Marines. It's so important to their brand that more people know what Space Marines are than the company who makes them or even the game they belong to.

It's also telling that every image you linked was for a non-mainstream FW art/model as opposed to main GW proper. Even the omgwtf ugly original Space Hulk terminators have more in common with current Terminators than the ones you linked.

the very first picture I linked was of Indomatus Pattern armor, Deathwing to be specific. the others where Tartaros pattern armor

OHH LOOK GW MAKES A KIT FOR IT

Cataphracti armor

ohh look GW makes a kit for that too.

and the last picture was a picture of an early Termy prototype. not sure if it was from forgeworld or early RT era art or what but I included it simply because GW's been borrowing ideas from old RT era concept art a few times with the Primaris release.

so yes there is indeed some varity among terminators.
and yeah I agree the basic tacticus armor is the best looking, but there's some other stuff that I think looks darn smart too. the basic Phobos armor is a nifty "light tacticool" look. and eliminators are the Marine Snipers we've wanted for some time. not a biiig fan of the gravis armor, but I think inceptors look solid, my biggest issue with then is the fight base.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As mentioned already Primaris could use better melee dedicated infantry, pure transports and flyers.

I don't see GW adding to the Reivers as so much as making a entirely new data sheet unit for a new model set. Which will also likely be an Elite slot. Which is fine if GW moved Reivers to Troops where I think they fit a lot better if for nothing else but Objective Secured. Of course, I could be biased in that I think every 40k faction should have more Troop options.

I suspect the new repulsor will be the Primaris pure transport. Hopefully the weapons or options for weapons are fairly cheap.

As for flyers, I would be fine just allowing Storm Ravens transport capacity for Primaris as I don't see Primaris really getting a flyer that is all that different from it anyways. Well, maybe except for the weapons.

What I kinda feel is still missing are man portable heavy anti-tank weapon squads (Eliminators may cover that soon) and close range breacher-type squads somewhat like melta Terminators. I can't see something like melta aggressors being all that useful on the tabletop, but fluff wise they would make some sense for boarding actions. Primaris are still space marines after all.

I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

They are missing cheap transports, but they're also missing the low-mid range non-transports - the air superiority fighter, the fighter/bomber, The AA Tank, the medium tank, the artillery.

If the New Repulsor is the Primaris Rhino equivalent, I'm definitely hoping it has more than 10 capacity and isn't much more costly than a Rhino (It should be more at T8 16W), but not much more. The normal Repulsor holds 10, and this one won't/shouldn't have storage for ammo/power packs for all the guns.

I don't see them allowing Stormravens to transport Primaris. They've worked pretty hard not to allow that cross over, and give Primaris lines their own weaponry The TLHB/LC on the Repulsor is the exception proving the rule. plus the backlash or people who are already torqued about the "Can't transport Primaris" would have a field day.

I expect to see another Gravis unit that will have either long range AT or Close Combat Loads as their two options. Think all Cylone Missile or all Lightning Claws or TH/SS.

I expect to see Deep Strike - probably Teleportarium - retcon'ed onto Mk X Gravis armor - I think they want to get away from so many alpha/deep strike but still slow units, but doubt they can piecemeal like this.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't expect to see Suppressors get a CCW option. Melee Heavy/Dedicated Primaris will be one of the last things they add to the line

I expect to see a Hover-Cavalry unit to replace bikes. I think they're having almost daily meetings to figure out how to do this without using Jetbikes to avoid pissing off Sammael, Custodes, and Eldar (even more) - but this will be closer to last as they flesh out Ravenwing and White Scars

I'll also agree every line could use more troop slot units. Assault Marines and probably bikes should have been troops already for Force Org reasons, most infantry should get objective secured - and objective securing should be tie-broken by something other than pure model count - not just basic troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nvs wrote:


I just hope when we eventually get the analog to Space Marine terminators they look like terminators and not fat aggressors.

Aggressors ARE the analog to Terminators. Cumberson, Two-seat-on-a-transport-taking, Slow, walking, Supposedly more durable, Power Fist(s) and a short range shooter.

I'd have no problem with the new trnasport only having a ten model capacity if instead of more room it used the weight saved from the lack of a turret to move faster. if it say... had a speed of 15 and a cost of 100 points that'd be a reasonably useful transport.

Allowing Primaris to use older "big", "non-Rhino" transports such as Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, Storm Wolfs, etc.. would be a good start IMO.

eh primaris have a land raider equivilant, although being able to load up stormravens would be nice.

as it is I'm planning on doing a mixed blood ravens force. once my primaris battle company is done, I'm gonna do a 1st company demi-company deploying via storm raven. I'm not likely to use them all (outside of apoc) but it's a fun concept!

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd have no problem with the new trnasport only having a ten model capacity if instead of more room it used the weight saved from the lack of a turret to move faster. if it say... had a speed of 15 and a cost of 100 points that'd be a reasonably useful transport.

That's a reasonable but non-traditional-for-GW approach. A 15" move is half again the armed Repulsor, 3 more than a Rhino/Razorback (And Predator), and with a 3" Disembark 75% of the way across the "normal" No-Man's-Land- with a 3inch Disembark and a 6 inch advance its entirely across the no man's land.. Even if they did deviate between a standardized stat line (including move) for a chassis, 15" without a "Not within 9 inches" caveat feels like it might be getting into abuse potential territory.

A 6" move squad in a Rhino chassis can move 12", advance 6" disembark 3" move 6" advance 6" - that's (Not within 24") 0.00000001 inches shy of 33 out of of 36" on turn 2. The 15" Repulsor Theory-cutor can cover that last 3 inches. Or - if they potentially stay in 15 + 6 + 15+ 6 they can be across and off the board. I think there's a scenario involving escaping off the opposing board edge? And it probably says not to use transports. But it can/will/already has inspired tournament missions where tailoring lists to narrative missions isn't possible because tailoring lists is frowned upon.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more transports, and transports having more usability, but movement alone probably isn't the answer. Ground troops by themselves are likely too slow, faster transports are too fast, and need to do something other than be fast probably in the Command and Control area like the Forgeworld Rhinos.

I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)

So was I, most of the time they equate transport capacity gained/lost based on Dakka/Ammo/Power storage. The LRC carries more bodies because Hurricane Bolter Ammo takes up less space than twin LC Power Packs. Or that was what they told us. And Good God, if they make the Primaris Rhino-pulsor Phobos only its gonna be

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm just trying to guess ideas based on what we've seen andapply some logic, the interior is only so big in a transpoort and all, and the repulsor fluff actually notes it's a little small, we seem to see some sponsons that might be side mounted jets on this new transport, so a high speeder lighter transport seems logical. the land speeder has a 16 inch movement, and the landspeeder storm a 18 inch movement, so 15 inches really wouldn't be THAT odd, especially if this things is intended for phobos units (this BTW is something we might need to consider, that only phobos units may be able to use it, I hope not, but..)

So was I, most of the time they equate transport capacity gained/lost based on Dakka/Ammo/Power storage. The LRC carries more bodies because Hurricane Bolter Ammo takes up less space than twin LC Power Packs. Or that was what they told us. And Good God, if they make the Primaris Rhino-pulsor Phobos only its gonna be

ohh I agreed. it'll be a gak storm, it'd make GW look completely tone deaf

Whilst I would have prefered a straight update of the "small" Marine range to Primaris size it does look like we are stuck with having both still wandering together hand in hand.

The marine range is already horribly bloated with various "new" units brutally crowbarred in over the last few years and it would be a shame for Primaris to go the same way.

We are stuck with them having to make "Marine" units that continue the asthetic but don't look enough like old units that they can just be proxied - so I don't think we will ever see drop pods, bikes, teminators, Land Raider, Rhino (and variants) - the latter are all used by other Imperial forces.

A basic transport not a IFV would be good.
A mobile artillery unit
Characters

 Mr Morden wrote:
Whilst I would have prefered a straight update of the "small" Marine range to Primaris size it does look like we are stuck with having both still wandering together hand in hand.

The marine range is already horribly bloated with various "new" units brutally crowbarred in over the last few years and it would be a shame for Primaris to go the same way.

I've never understood this complaint. More options are always good. You were never taking all the options in the codex in a normal sized game anyway. Why are more options you can swap in an out based on codex updates, flavor changes, and pure whimsy bad? I mean if its just your personal OCD, I get that. I have some of the same, it gets me when the units in a 100 Marine company aren't in 5's and 10's, 3 and 6 man Centurions, Aggressors, Eliminators and so on feel weird. So an honest question, how is it bloated, and shoe horned? Some are less optimal than others, but it doesn't feel like any of them have no theoretical use.

Breton wrote:
I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

I would point out that they already sell chapter-specific upgrade kits for Primaris marines and that they are also still carrying that vehicle upgrade kit with wargear for three or four different factions. A generic melee upgrade sprue for Primaris Sergeants couldn't cost any more than that and they could probably do it just copy-pasting from their existing CAD files and not have to design anything new. Although if they go that route I hope they give Reivers something besides the sword/fist options. Axe/chainfist would fit their aesthetic better, even if a short 'tactical' power axe would mean some new design work.

(I wouldn't even complain about having to perform surgery on my existing Sergeants for more than five minutes.)

The Newman wrote:

Breton wrote:
I don't see them adding to Reivers - or any other two option unit already fleshed out either. At least not before more of the range is filled out and they redo the options/sprues for the existing kit. All the costs involved in recalling all existing boxes to repack with an upgrade sprue, or to toss the original mold, and rework a current sprue to replace one already in the box (still necessitating a recall) is extremely cost prohibitive.

I would point out that they already sell chapter-specific upgrade kits for Primaris marines and that they are also still carrying that vehicle upgrade kit with wargear for three or four different factions. A generic melee upgrade sprue for Primaris Sergeants couldn't cost any more than that and they could probably do it just copy-pasting from their existing CAD files and not have to design anything new. Although if they go that route I hope they give Reivers something besides the sword/fist options. Axe/chainfist would fit their aesthetic better, even if a short 'tactical' power axe would mean some new design work.

(I wouldn't even complain about having to perform surgery on my existing Sergeants for more than five minutes.)

The Sergeant melee upgrade is in the Chapter specific upgrade pack. You're talking about- as I understood it, an across the board option upgrade for all the Reivers in the squad. I don't see them forcing a second purchase added to a $50 box - of any unit that already has their two options done - i.e. for Reivers BP/Combat Knife, or Bolter Carbine. If they give a Phobos/Shadowspear unit a CCW option/upgrade, I think it would be the Suppresors with a big ass hammer/sword/lance type of weapon either thrusting or on the downswing to fit their reclining and two handed pose, as they already have the jump boots, and grav chutes.

The vehicle upgrade pack doesn't have any rules do they? They're all cosmetic?

For me the biggest missing (both of which have already been mentioned) are

1) bikes. it was ork bikes and buggies that got me into the hobby. I have 50ish space marine /scount bikes plus attack bikes, at least 50 ork bikes, 15 custodes bikes, and 30+ eldar bikes, My next bike project will eb dark eldar jetbikes and hellions. But if GW made nice looking Primaris bike model I would totallt push that back ion favor of Primaris bikers.

2) Razerback/Rhino equivalent transport.somethign cheap to zip em around the board, maybe a storm bolter or 2 and a lower capacity transport model with a better gun(but not to pricey/powerful) say a twin hellblaster on top.

I personally like the look of/playing mech armies or mixed bikers and units in transports getting where they need to go, be it backfield shooting positions, midfield holding/firing or up close combat, and none of this "we are both somehow out of transports and dug in/prepared positions like we waited for a starting bell to begin fighting. like... "oh dear chaps why don't we meet up at 4:00 on a thursday for a battel you xenos scum. no shots fired before that moment, you greenskins will abide by that yes?"

Unit upgrade options.

Access to OldMarine goodies (options and transports).

Bharring wrote:
Unit upgrade options.

Access to OldMarine goodies (options and transports).

Which would be the end of traditional marines for sure, except also ensure that the old models could be used to proxy the Primaris ones. I'm not sure GW wants to encourage that. I remain ciriois to see how it plays out.