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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Reading all the „OldMarines get replaced by Primaris“ threads on various 40 related forums I asked myself what do Primaris „need“ to be a „viable“ army (models-wise not rules-wise).

Lets say Oldmarines DO get replaced. What models are „missing“ for a fluffy/TAC Primaris list?
Its definitely not Lieutenants...

I‘d say a transport or two and one/two more kind of Dreads. Then ultimately a dedicated assault CC unit and expand on the Gravis armour dudes.
Just give the regular troops and other units one/two more customization possibilities (Plasma weapons, Lascanons, Flamers etc.)
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





a melee option, and veterns.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Melee, flyers, flyer defense, drop pods and any kind of real fast attack vehicle.

and until the new hover cawlino drops a cost efficient transport.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




HoundsofDemos wrote:
Melee, flyers, flyer defense, drop pods and any kind of real fast attack vehicle.

and until the new hover cawlino drops a cost efficient transport.


A yes flyers! Add that to my list.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Reading all the „OldMarines get replaced by Primaris“ threads on various 40 related forums I asked myself what do Primaris „need“ to be a „viable“ army (models-wise not rules-wise).

Lets say Oldmarines DO get replaced. What models are „missing“ for a fluffy/TAC Primaris list?
Its definitely not Lieutenants...

I‘d say a transport or two and one/two more kind of Dreads. Then ultimately a dedicated assault CC unit and expand on the Gravis armour dudes.
Just give the regular troops and other units one/two more customization possibilities (Plasma weapons, Lascanons, Flamers etc.)


A MBT tank in the ~150 point range, a Lascannon/missile unit, an artillery unit, a close assault unit.

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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





the redemptor dreadnought is about 150 points so I guess it can fill the "150 point MBT" role alright.

artillery unit though yeah thats not a bad point, a "repulsor whirlwind" could be intreasting

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Sentient Void

In terms of the actual model I would like to see anatomically correct Primaris.

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 Tokhuah wrote:
In terms of the actual model I would like to see anatomically correct Primaris.


I'd like to see anatomically correct Terminators myself.
   
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






 Tokhuah wrote:
In terms of the actual model I would like to see anatomically correct Primaris.


Well you're in luck. Someone on ebay is selling naked primaris.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Space-Marine-Primaris-Without-Armor-Proxy-for-WARHAMMER-40k-28mm-Resin-Miniature/293137680356?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D2f53689fdf9b49c8b441aa26afcd117e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D273913943180%26itm%3D293137680356&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A1ca82878-9f90-11e9-bc65-74dbd1801b5c%7Cparentrq%3Ac4f7a1cf16b0a4b7b6cf497cff85e254%7Ciid%3A1

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Made in ca
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... WHHHHY!

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





They lack a ton of vehicles - non-hybrid tanks and transports. Artillery, Techmarines, Mobility, especially on close combat. (I'd like to make my predition now - Reivers will be able to use Grapple hooks and grav chutes as a jump pack in future editions. They'll use the grapple hook to yank themselves 12 inches forwards while being anti-grav'ed by the chutes.)

"Special/Heavy" Weapons other than Plasma. The special/Heavy Weapons all seem to trace back to one of four "Elements" - Las, Plas, Melta, Grav - that every expansion feels like it favors one of those elements. Primaris are screwed in 9th Ed when Plasma takes a downturn and they can't get Melta or Grav.

I think Gravis is the replacement for Terminators as they're usually a Power Fist, plus a short ranged dakka gun.

I don't think the Primaris get bikes. I think they get something, but it's not bikes. Maybe jetbikes, maybe grav chariots, maybe something else. They'll get something else that makes them calvarly/bikers but it won't be a bike - Think He Man and his Sky Sled, or Wily Kit and Wily Kat and their sky surfers. Or the Silver Surfer. I also wouldn't focus on an idea of one bike-ish thing, one occupant. I wouldn't be surprised to see a longer bike-ish thing with a driver and a rear facing gunner like an SBD Dauntless - that could be the landspeeder replacement too. I don't see them being side by side so they're not so obvious.

They need... a path forward for the Black Templar chapter and their crusader squads. 10 Intercessors and 10 Infiltrators doesn't have the same feel.

They need to kill off and then replace the special characters who don't fit in a Primaris theme'd army, and cross the Primaris Rubicon with the ones that do. For example, Shrike with his jump pack and twin lighting claws doesn't strike me as likely to survive the procedure (poor guy, he just got promoted), while Pedro Kantor with what basically ammounts to a Bolt Storm Gauntlet already is pretty likely. Tiggy could go either way. Cassius is a goner - combi-flamer plus some of them have to fail for story reasons. Sicarius is a goner. Not because of his gear, but because they don't want a special character leading the default company of the default chapter. Chronus, sadly, is a goner. Telion survives, and becomes an Eliminator. Lysander.. probably survives and becomes and Aggressor. All three Templar SC's survive. Khan takes a dirt nap. Unless the timing with the new Bike-ish troopers comes out, and Moondrakkan gets a make-over. Vulkan survives. Azrael, Asmodai, and Ezekiel survive. Belial could go either way. Sammael is a goner. Blood Angels - Dante sleeps with the fishes (Jump Pack, 1000+ years old), Tycho survives and maybe becomes an Inceptor where the blast shield can hide his horribly disfigured face, Mephiston survives, Redemptor Librarian Dreads probably become a thing. Thunderwolves in general don't make it, the two wolf chariot... might, but probably not. Harald Deathwolf, and Canis Wolfborn do not. I predict they peel Bjorn out of his current sarcophagus, upgrade him to primaris, then stick him in a redemptor when the conversation doesn't restore him to life as originally thought and he almost dies without his sarcophagus. Murderfang is not so lucky.
[Thumb - Sky Surfers.jpg]

[Thumb - Sky Sled.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 05:51:29


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, I think GW will increase the capabilities of Primaris by introducing new models and units from time to time.
Frankly, I'd collect a Primaris army and leave the Tacticals aside,
while Scouts can still play an important role in an SM army.

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Eliminators and Infiltrators already suggest Scouts are being replaced too.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Hamburg

Breton wrote:
Eliminators and Infiltrators already suggest Scouts are being replaced too.

How about Primaris, do they also get a price increase next time?

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Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Primaris lack a ton of options...but they'll eventually cover those bases. They might do it in a different way than before (leaning in more of a HH or Eldar style of over-specialized squads).

I'd say they lack about 70% of the Marine range right now. Just off the top of my head:

1) Dedicated effective (in 8th edition) close combat
2) Mobile version of the above
3) Indirect fire support
4) Terminator/ultra heavy infantry replacement
5) Flyers
6) Bikes or similar
7) Light speeder or similar
8) Light and "cheap" basic transport (looks like that's coming though)
9) Any actual artillery (not a need, but is a gap in the line)
10) A superheavy vehicle that's not the comical Astraeus (this would probably be a Forgeworld item...something to slot between the Astraeus and Repulsor)
11) A heap of characters (though they're addressing these)
12) Replica characters in potential heavier armour (i.e. the Terminator character replacements)
13) Dedicated anti-tank infantry unit (think Hellblasters but with lascannons or something similar)

etc etc etc.

They cover most of the other roles, but are simply nowhere near finished.

 
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain





why does everyone keep saying they lack a bike equivilant? stop thinking of what they look like and start thinking what they can do, and it's suddenly clear the bike equivilant of inceptors.

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Because they're not bikes? And yes they'll produce a kit that serves a similar purpose even if it just looks different. They know full well it'll sell.

 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
why does everyone keep saying they lack a bike equivilant? stop thinking of what they look like and start thinking what they can do, and it's suddenly clear the bike equivilant of inceptors.


Inceptors are still jump infantry, not a biker. For most chapters, that's probably similar enough. For some, You'll still need something that's a Bike-ish biker - say for White Scars and Ravenwing.

A lot of people keep saying they need a Terminator replacement, but Aggressors are that replacement. They're only really missing the 2+ and the invuln, but I think they're doing away with mass 2+ and invulns - I think the new plan is add wounds and toughness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me hopes they find Jetbikes for Ravenwing, possibly for Astartes too... and they stick with bikes for the Wolves. Making some Hell's Angels out of Space Wolves screams out to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 07:40:55


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Courageous Space Marine Captain





the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.

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Sioux Falls, SD

Honestly, Invulnerable saves are the thing Primaris are lacking the most. Only two units have them (Captain and Chaplain). Definitely could use more units with them. It might help Primaris against all of the billion different cheap multi-wound weapons out there.

I don't know if we will ever get Primaris Terminators, but some Primaris units with some sort of a shield would be great. Dedicated or at least primarily Close Combat units would be nice too. Unfortunately, I think these kind of units would be placed in the Elites slot, which is already overcrowded due to the inexplicable placement of Reivers (should be Fast Attack) and Aggressors (should be Heavy Support) in that slot.

At any rate, I think the following things are missing:
Units with Invulnerable Saves (either a heavy infantry unit like a Terminator or a fast infantry unit like Vanguard Veterans)
Dedicated Anti-Tank infantry (my guess is the Las Fusils variant of the Eliminators will be exactly this)
Dedicated Light Transport (the tank from the Primaris Lieutenant video appears to be this)
IDF units (some form of a mortar would be nice)
Dedicated Close Combat Units (dudes with Power Weapons and minimal shooting would be good.))

I don't see the need for Bikes. Inceptors perform the same function only better. Ravenwing don't have Primaris to begin with, and White Scars still use regular Troops at times.

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BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.
I felt this one....

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 IHateNids wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Customizablity.

No seriously don't laugh.
I felt this one....


Granted i am spoilt rotten, started with Orkz went to CSM and then was there during the hightime of IA13 Renegades.
Customizability is for me atleast one of the key features and whilest i really like some of the thing primaris have (like their guns, and some parts of the helmets) overall i feel like they just are too homogenus even in a squad.

Also the whole homogenus schtik is better done by Necrons, where it bothers me a LOOOOOT less.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 09:38:53


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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.


Agreed. And I don't think many people would mind if Centurions gradually faded away either!
   
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 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Stux wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


IMHO agressors have more in common with centurions then terminators. Both are heavy additions to basic marine armor that allow the mounting of a large amount of firepower. I mean a Centurion with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters basicly fills the EXACT tactical niche Aggressors seem to be intended for.


Agreed. And I don't think many people would mind if Centurions gradually faded away either!


I've often used Centurions to explain why Primaris are needed. GW needs to produce new minis for Marines, and if they didn't do Primaris we'd instead get more centurions, over specialized units that where more and more rediculas

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BrianDavion wrote:
the 2+ and invul is kiiinda the idea of termies though.

as for inceptors not being bikes, they do fill the role bikes to, they're the fast mobile shooty unit. deploy in packs of 3 etc.


Not the first time they've tried to roll back the prevalence of invulns to just Caps and Chaps.

They may have an overlapping function- heck they even have the Impact Hits we've seen borrowed from Fantasy - but they don't overlap on the look/feel. The guy in a jump pack isn't the same as the guy riding a machine or an animal into combat. Holding onto the controls in one hand, wacking someone with a power sword with the other. And as mentioned it will look completely wrong for White Scars and Ravenwing. White Scars would just turn Raven Guard dressed like Apothecaries for Halloween.

 Stux wrote:


I definitely see design space for both Aggressors and Terminators to exist. Aggressors are mobile weapons platforms, Terminators are elite assault troops. Aggressors are there to protect your firebase, Terminators push out and take the fight to the enemy. Very different tactics, loadouts, and stats.

I also cannot see GW stopping the iconic Terminator look. The iconic power armour look is already covered by Intercessors. So I fully expect to eventually get some sort of Primaris or at least upscaled and more empowered Terminator.


What's the difference between slower plodding one butt two seats up armored troops with a storm bolter and power fist vs slower plodding one butt two seats up armored troops with two power fists where only one matters, and two fisted bolter type weapons? Also notice the grenade harness borrowed from the Cataphracti. You're right Terminator Armor is iconic, heck the idea of a First Company in Termie Armor itself is, and that's something they're going to have to figure out. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new Gravis unit - once they get around to making close combat Primaris - Pugilators that have some sort of TH/SS replacement, or lightning claw replacement as their two options. Aggressors are the shooty Termies. We don't have the Assault Termies yet.

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I don;t think the Primaris line-up is missing all that much tbh, one or two things, sure, but what I don't want to see is the kind of bloat and over-stuffed options of regular space marines being replicated with the Primaris line.

With the addition of the Shadowspear/Phobos units once it is fleshed out with full kits, the Repulsor Executioner, and what appears to be a new transport in the latest tease the only things really lacking are a melee specialist unit and a techmarine.

Melee specialists could easily be added by giving a new weapon loadout for Reivers and inceptors. (Power weapon options the Reiver Sgt and Inceptors armed with twin lightning claws instead of guns should do it).

Any thing else is really just additional bonuses, but what the all-Primaris army really lacks is good CC units.
   
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When primaris marines were created girlyman forgot that there are heavy weapons, like LC, ML, PC. They also have no clue how to ride a bike. Looks like his budget ran out, no more money to teach them how to handle these things. And, until now, the bureaucracy has stopped him from getting more money. I am not surprised, this came from a guy who cant benefit from his own chapter tactic.
   
 
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