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PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 02:17:26


Post by: MajorTom11


Not exactly sure where this should go but here goes -

I have never been in the habit myself, but many people are in the habit of 'sharpening' the tip of their brushes by putting it in their mouths.

It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given a small amount of people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts. *Edit - this issue has since been fixed, but older stock is still out there in many places.

The point is you don't know what is in your paints. And in today's age with so many alternatives of excellent quality from new, small companies as well as huge ones we have more options than ever. These products are often mixed in places where other lines are made too, and you have no way to know if that equipment was decontaminated properly. Play it safe guys, learn to roll your brush on paper or the back of your hand to get that fine point, you can't count on it that your paints are as non-toxic as advertised (if they even are advertised as such).

I realize many will want specifics, but I am not going to be naming and shaming. The only point I have to give is very simple - don't eat paint. What you do with it is up to you, you are free to believe or disbelieve me, I just thought something should be said if some were doing it but skeptical.




PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 02:39:59


Post by: troa


Please add a source, which will indeed include naming the company. Without a source this is no more credible than me saying Space Marines will get a new codex tomorrow.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 02:46:14


Post by: Stormatious


Wow thanks for that infomation MajorTom. That's pretty scary.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 03:01:01


Post by: TheEldanariPrince


Yeah, i have to be honest, whats the point of this without naming the company? Who is it? Cause i'm not gonna bother to break the habit without more information.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 03:06:07


Post by: Stormatious


Well he said his point is that, you dont know whats in any of the paints you get. Which is true, better to be safe then risk it.


As far as im aware all paint is toxic unless it states otherwise on the labeling. And toxic = all sorts of health issues, possibly even the same issues the OP stated ( cancer ). I should note, i am an armchair doctor or what ever you want to call it right now, because i don't really know any thing about this subject.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:04:04


Post by: solkan


This just falls under the general public safety warning: Don't drink your paint or paint water.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:19:03


Post by: Stormatious


 solkan wrote:
This just falls under the general public safety warning: Don't drink your paint or paint water.




Well to be fair, i have seen alot of youtuber painters doing what the OP is talking about. I always found it a bit unusual that they wouldn't mind risking getting saliva on there models, but what ever.


Edit - well i mean they are putting salivia on it any way to sharpen point, so dont know what im saying.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:22:04


Post by: Lance845


I have seen a lot of idiots do a lot of dumb things on a regular basis. That doesn't mean it's safe or anyone should do it.

Don't eat paint. Paint isn't food. Stop putting not food into your mouth.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:44:55


Post by: Ouze


 Lance845 wrote:
Stop putting not food into your mouth.


Don't kink shame me.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:51:14


Post by: hotsauceman1


Citation or is didnt happen.
Honestly, if you are not gonna tell, why tell people at all?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:53:00


Post by: LordofHats


I feel like this would be something people would just know not to do after the Radium Girls. Sure it's not radium in there, but I just assumed people were smart enough to not put manufactured chemicals or anything that touches them, in their mouths. Half the time the company selling the stuff to the company that sold the stuff to the company that sold it to you doesn't even know whats in their products, or even took the time to ask.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:53:08


Post by: Thargrim


I'd guess it'd be vallejo, cause I heard about the cadmium thing before. Tbh even though Citadel paints are listed as non toxic on the website the actual pots don't say the same. They just say ASTM compliant, so whatever.

The bigger question for me is, how bad is it to get paint on your hands. Because your skin absorbs what it comes in contact with.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 04:58:42


Post by: Lance845


 Thargrim wrote:
I'd guess it'd be vallejo, cause I heard about the cadmium thing before. Tbh even though Citadel paints are listed as non toxic on the website the actual pots don't say the same. They just say ASTM compliant, so whatever.

The bigger question for me is, how bad is it to get paint on your hands. Because your skin absorbs what it comes in contact with.


As an emulsion, the bulk of all the chemicals in the paint as suspended in a semi stable compound that should not be absorbing into your skin. The latex and acrylic in the water base along with any bonding agents in the body should keep it all pretty safely on the outside. You need to actually ingest it to be a problem. It's not like harsher paints where the base is a harsher chemical which is itself something to avoid skin contact with. Just don't eat it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 05:03:59


Post by: Thargrim


That's good, i've never done the brush licking thing but I did mistake my paint water for my mixed drink before. I heard vallejo started removing cadmium in their paints going forward, not sure about the others though.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 07:35:17


Post by: Da Boss


I don't put my brushes in my mouth, never got in the habit of that. I use my fingers to get a point.

But I am pretty interested in this anyway. What kind of cancer did these people get? Did they have any other risk factors for that cancer? How long were they painting?

I find it unlikely the cancer was caused from this source alone.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 08:32:24


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 MajorTom11 wrote:


It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given several people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts.




As in, the definitive, sole cause of Cancer? Yeah? From a reputable medical source, peer reviewed, and definitely not The Man In The Pub?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 08:50:26


Post by: Crispy78


Vallejo used to have cadmium in some of their paints. Apparently they eliminated it about 5 years ago, but older bottles will have still been in the supply chain for some time after that.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 09:20:10


Post by: Tyranid Horde


As someone who licks their brushes quite frequently, I'll need more than just a post saying this for me to stop, I don't get the point I want from rolling the bristles on paper or using my finger, plus it dries out the hairs.

Colour me skeptical until there are some sources.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 09:41:43


Post by: Stormatious


I use the top of my left hand to do this. By the end of each session my hand looks pretty ridiculous.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 09:55:54


Post by: Nevelon


I was always under the impression that licking brushes was something you never should have been doing from the start. Than again, I’m old enough to have worked with actual lead miniatures, so the hobby =/= mouth bit is something I’ve been doing for a while now.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 09:58:09


Post by: DanceOfSlaanesh


Did Reginald Kingsbury 3rd get cancer?



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 10:06:13


Post by: Grimtuff


Well this thread seems a little pointless (ha! ) right now...

"Name your sources"
"SHUT UP SAXTON! I'M AN INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST. I DON'T NEED TO NAME SOURCES!"


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 10:08:53


Post by: Kroem


Cadmium and hexavalent chromium are both pretty horrible substances, however the grace period for the REACH regulations in Europe has now ended so most if not all paint manufacturers selling in Europe should have taken these substances out of their paint.

Still better to stay safe an not lick your brushes as you recommend!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 14:07:50


Post by: greatbigtree


As a semi-regular smoker, occasional welder, campfire enthusiast and worker in dusty / smoky / otherwise borderline toxic environments...

They haven't got me yet.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/11 22:54:23


Post by: chromedog


I'm well aware of the risks from cadmium and chromium.
I'm also old enough to have seen "The Radium girls" before I started painting minis - which fortunately for me, was as an adult. It was also still back in the "lead minis" days, so like several others, not putting non-food in my mouth isn't something I have to think about.

My dad was an electroplater. Exposure to hexavalent chromium was a daily hazard. It pushes cigarette smoking so far down the list of "lung cancer" causes that it may as well not be there (it'll still give you emphysema, but the cancer risks from it become 'inconclusive').




PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 00:20:19


Post by: meatybtz


LOL. I am still here. My "issue" is hereditary and genetic.. yaa!

Still yeah. I licked brushes. I used Dragon paint (isocyanate based paint in the late 80s and early 90s.. it was "water based" too.. good god, all those isocyanates. I painted cars too.. ).

I also burned old citadel plastic till it rained a black hydrocarbon rain in my bedroom. I melted led in my middle school shop class. Also welded in the same class.

Also was a metal fabricator for a while. Oh god those fumes. Welders take a smoke break to breath "cleaner" air. A cigarette (in fact one session with cast iron was like a hundred packs kind of damage) is way less harmful the fumes we huffed while welding cast iron.

We all get old, we all die. Here is a hint too for the uninformed. We all have cancer. Every single one of us. My daughter does, so does my son at 1 year old. What matters is if our body is cleaning it up or failing to do so. When we "get cancer" it means our body has failed to deal with it. But otherwise, every day our body's natural systems clean up the mess that DNA Replication causes.

Just as every single male alive has cancer in his Prostate. Sorry guys.. it's 100%. What matters is if it is being handled or not. When it isn't.. death by prostate cancer is ugly.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 03:11:38


Post by: Filthy_Sanchez


This, along with a lot of other sensationalist media, is nonsense. The amount of cadmium containing paint one would have to ingest in order to affect the body in any measurable way is incredibly high. Like drinking a pot of paint a day high.

You have the information of the world at your fingertips. As a very friendly suggestion, please do some basic research before posting things like this.

Here's a paper on Cadmium toxicity which talks specifically about ingestion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1578573/


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 03:45:23


Post by: LordofHats


Filthy_Sanchez wrote:
Here's a paper on Cadmium toxicity which talks specifically about ingestion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1578573/


Did you even read it? For context, the absorption of mercury through the digestive system is only a few percentage points too. Are you going to advocate people consume mercury with nary a care?

Cadmium, on the one hand, is example for an industrially used substance with negative long-time effects on human health.


I don't think anyone has said you're going to drop dead at the drop of a hat, but if you make a habit of ingesting chemicals for years (as part of a hobby perhaps) you're risking kidney damage, bone damage, reproductive damage, and maybe cancer nevermind that you're ignoring the point that you don't know what is in paint. The people who made the paint probably don't even know. Supply chains are a maze. It's so big it's almost impossible to confirm the contents of the product, or where they came from and there's already enough cadmium slipping into the water table from lackluster water laws as is.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 03:50:44


Post by: Lance845


Its disappointing that any grown adults with access to a computer would even need to be told to not eat paint.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 03:59:29


Post by: ZergSmasher


Who the hell puts their paintbrush in their mouth?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 03:59:44


Post by: DarknessEternal


Thanks for all your specific and well thought out opinions, President Trump.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 05:42:33


Post by: hotsauceman1


Brush licking is a habit that I pcike up, drop and pick up again.
I mostly do it when brushes are dry.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 06:27:21


Post by: MajorTom11


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given several people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts.




As in, the definitive, sole cause of Cancer? Yeah? From a reputable medical source, peer reviewed, and definitely not The Man In The Pub?


I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:23:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Gonna need a link to the paper.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:24:31


Post by: aldo1234


 MajorTom11 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given several people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts.




As in, the definitive, sole cause of Cancer? Yeah? From a reputable medical source, peer reviewed, and definitely not The Man In The Pub?


I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


Then link it, if its peer reviewed then it will most likely have been published so the "bash fest" has already passed. trying to help people without evidence is just scaremongering in my opinion, you either have the review and should post it or are making things up


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:30:24


Post by: MajorTom11


Well, I'm not gonna do it. Gave my reasons, and I understand your reservations, but I guess if you feel it's scaremongering go ahead and eat your paint and we let natural selection decide lol


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:34:36


Post by: Peregrine


 MajorTom11 wrote:
I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So what you are saying is that you have solid evidence that one of the companies in our hobby is producing dangerous materials with insufficient warning of their contents and you're more concerned with preventing a "bash fest" than getting this vital safety information out so that people can avoid the hazard? By withholding this information if anyone here is hurt by these paints their blood is on your hands.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:37:46


Post by: Thargrim


https://tangibleday.com/paint-brush-licking-is-it-really-dangerous-scientific-evidence/

Thing is this topic has already been discussed elsewhere, years ago. All it takes is some simple google searches to turn up dozens of threads and results n articles on this. So I don't get the reservations about sharing at this point. It's been known for some time that licking brushes is probably not a good idea. And if you're talking about who I think you are the newer production paints should have had these substances filtered out in favor of safer alternatives, cause no one wants a lawsuit on their hands if they can help it. And honestly what isn't toxic? what doesn't cause cancer. The los angeles air I breathe will probably kill me before these paints do, especially living downwind from a major freeway. Not to mention my daily whiskey nightcap


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 07:39:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


See, you've mentioned a peer-reviewed paper. But you're not willing to share it 'because reasons'.

As Peregrine said, if it's peer reviewed and published, there is no bash fest.

Your reticence to share your source is a wee bit suspicious.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 08:00:04


Post by: Ratius


Just post up the link dude
Its Friday and we needz da dramaz.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 08:09:48


Post by: Rolsheen


If your not going to publish your evidence why bother posting at all? It's just pointless scaremongering to the few people who do lick their brushes and have very old paint laying around.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 08:23:48


Post by: =Angel=


 DarknessEternal wrote:
Thanks for all your specific and well thought out opinions, President Trump.


How dare anyone ask for evidence in an information age. Listen and believe.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 08:45:53


Post by: fresus


I'm extremely doubtful that it's possible to gather enough data to establish a statistically meaningful link, unless it really causes very specific types of cancers. There aren't that many mini painters out there, the amount they ingest is very small and probably varies widely over the course of the decades needed to see the health impact.
Studies that show Cadmium or Chromium are toxic? Of course. Studies on professional construction workers exposed to large quantities of acrylics? That's possible too.

It's probably best to avoid licking your paintbrush. But if you want to know if there is actually a non-negligible risk to your health, the best bet is probably to try to estimate how much paint you ingest when licking (which isn't that easy to do), then calculate the amount of harmful stuff you're ingesting, and finally compare to know effect for similar dosage. This of course can only work for well-known substances (like the heavy metals you mentioned, even though they're almost non-existent in paints nowadays), while paints probably contain a long list of chemicals that haven't been studied extensively.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 08:53:15


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


So people not using the brand-that-shall-not-be-named may now unjustly be scared as they falsely believe they might use the brand-that-shall-not-be-named, while people using said brand may unjustly believe another brand to be the issue and feel unjustly safe.
Furthermore, the only brand actually named in this thread may be unjustly vilified as they may not be the brand in question, in addition to which the contents apparently have changed in recent years, making any supposed accusations less supported than they were to begin with.
Without further information, we do not know who is affected, as we are not aware of the brand, any timeframe on the study, or indeed anything really.

This has most certainly been very helpful.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 11:10:45


Post by: Overread


On the whole bashing angle I think that's overblown.There are lots of dangerous chemicals which can cause cancers and other faster and more guaranteed medical issues, including death, which we interact with on a daily basis.

I'm betting most of us have bottles of bleach in the cupboard for cleaning and yet we've not died of poisoning from using it. And lets not touch on things like smoking, drinking alcohol, driving cars etc...


So I don't see any issue with naming the company nor with posting the article to review the collected data and argument put forth. In fact it would be very sensible and shouldn't result in a bashing situation. Instead it would increase the validity of the advice and of the message being given. At present the lack of presenting any clear evidence seriously undermines the attempt at passing on the advice because at the same time as you're trying to sound serious about the medical advice you're also hiding all the evidence/information about it.

We have clear health labels on all those deadly products and it might well be that the new scientific findings will require the paint company to label their paint as such. Though such things can take time to work through the system so there is likely a long lag period before all the paint on the shelves would carry a warning.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 13:00:37


Post by: Just Tony


 Peregrine wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So what you are saying is that you have solid evidence that one of the companies in our hobby is producing dangerous materials with insufficient warning of their contents and you're more concerned with preventing a "bash fest" than getting this vital safety information out so that people can avoid the hazard? By withholding this information if anyone here is hurt by these paints their blood is on your hands.


Agreed.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 13:09:35


Post by: Sterling191


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See, you've mentioned a peer-reviewed paper. But you're not willing to share it 'because reasons'.

As Peregrine said, if it's peer reviewed and published, there is no bash fest.

Your reticence to share your source is a wee bit suspicious.


Ding ding ding. Peer reviewed data explicitly goes through that process so that it *can* be disseminated widely, not used as a secretive bludgeon of "I know all ze thingz, listen to my wizdomz mortalz".



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 13:27:04


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 MajorTom11 wrote:
rstand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


That's all very interesting, but at this point, totally irrelevant. The validity of the study is meaningless - instead I'm being asked to take the world of some Canadian I know nothing about, whose credentials are unknown. No-one here is doubting the results of a peer-reviewed medical article. They're doubting you because you are the only source of this scaremongering thread at present.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 13:48:09


Post by: Excommunicatus


Weasel words are fun.

FWIW, whether a person is accredited as an expert witness and/or whether a specific piece of evidence is admissible into evidence is decided by the factfinder at the time of trial. In this case, you would need an expert witness to get the paper in. Then there's cross-examination.

So alleging that a paper has "cause to stand in a court of law" is nonsensical gibberish, prima facie, and adds no support at all to an already poor appeal to authority.

gak, or get off the pot.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:00:34


Post by: Polonius


It sounds like a manufacturer was found liable for causing cancer in customers, based on the statement that the science stood up in a court of law. I'm not sure where, but the US, some pretty flimsy science has stood up. California courts have found no end of things to be toxic or carcinogenic, which is why you'll see products labelled for the state that everybody else kind of ignores.

I think we can all take the caution under advisement, and make of it what we will.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:13:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But were they? Or this is information akin to 'vaccines cause autism, honest, Guv!'

We don't know, because OP is bizarrely reticent to share a source he's not actually responsible for the validity of.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:15:57


Post by: Excommunicatus


Lex parsimoniae says that the answer that requires fewest assumptions is likely correct.

While I don't at all disagree with your opinions on the flimsiness of jury-trials in the civil system, the answer that requires fewest assumptions is that the OP is making this up.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:22:25


Post by: weasel_beef


I will NOT STOP EATING PAINT just because a bunch of NERDS on the internet say it's bad.

POST SOURCES OR I WILL DRINK TWO EXTRA POTS OF NULN OIL WHEN I GET HOME TONIGHT.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:23:11


Post by: greatbigtree


To quote the wise words of Patches O'Houlihan…

"I drink it 'cause it's sterile, and I like the taste."

and if that's not a good enough answer to putting paint in your mouth, I don't know what is.

"If you can dodge a paintbrush, you can dodge a ball!"


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:25:23


Post by: LordofHats


 Excommunicatus wrote:
the answer that requires fewest assumptions is that the OP is making this up.


The answer with the fewest assumptions is an assumption?

That's an... inventive, use of a basic principle.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:25:32


Post by: Excommunicatus


For clarity, pooh-poohing the OP does not mean I'm advocating for the free consumption of cadmium.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:27:39


Post by: AndrewGPaul


I'm actually surprised at the number of people who don't lick their brushes. I'm pretty sure everyone I know does it. Albeit that's usually to put a point back on the brush after rinsing it, but still. I'd always thought it was more common than not.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:29:40


Post by: Excommunicatus


 LordofHats wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
the answer that requires fewest assumptions is that the OP is making this up.


The answer with the fewest assumptions is an assumption?

That's an... inventive, use of a basic principle.


I have no idea what you just said.

Answer with fewest assumptions = likely correct. Does not exclude the answer being an assumption or based on an assumption. Mandates only that it is the fewest assumptions. Fewest assumptions = OP is trolling. At the very least, "OP is trolling" requires fewer assumptions than "OP is referencing an inherent weakness in the civil law system as it exists in the United States of America".

Would you like me to walk you through it again?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:32:16


Post by: totalfailure


If all that is going to be presented is Nyah Nyah I know something you don’t, but I’m too afraid to cite any sources, this post should be locked for trolling and forgotten.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:51:06


Post by: LordofHats


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Would you like me to walk you through it again?


No. I can spot the law school equivalent of "I took psychology 101 and now I understand everything" just fine. Walking through it again doesn't change how badly your applying a basic principle.

It's not news that paint contains cadmium, among other things. I have no idea why OP feels the need to raise the alarm about it now, but speculating as to their motive is all nothing but assumptions and I don't really see how it matters.

Commercial paints contain lots of chemicals you really probably shouldn't put in your body, so I'm more alarmed by the knee jerk reaction of "proof or ???". I don't see why it needs to be a controversy and a big internet fight that chemicals you can't identify or understand should probably not enter your mouth. I see people lick their brushes all the time, and it baffles me. Regulators still find lead contamination in paint fairly frequently. There was recall on hobby and craft paint just a few years ago that was infested with bacteria. If you don't know what's in it, and you really can't know what's in it, why would you put it in your mouth?

The OPs motivations for raising an alarm probably aren't as significant at this point imo as the apparent reluctance to engage in basic health safety.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 15:51:52


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm actually surprised at the number of people who don't lick their brushes. I'm pretty sure everyone I know does it. Albeit that's usually to put a point back on the brush after rinsing it, but still. I'd always thought it was more common than not.

Aye, it seems (and I too thought that it was) one of the most logical and common ways to keep the point on a brush. Don't think I know anybody who puts the brush in their mouth before cleaning it in the water though, what would be the point of that? Suppose you could get inventive and use your tongue as a wet palette of sorts.. wait a second, that sounds like a plan...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:02:38


Post by: Excommunicatus


You're*

University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:04:15


Post by: aka_mythos


"Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium" - Cadmium is most often found in and used as a yellow pigment, Cobalt in blue pigments. Chromium in greens. Whats hard is that pure pigments these are very distinctive colors and while you can get close with mixes of other pigments, there are simply a long list of colors that no one makes anymore because those specific shades required specific toxic pigments.

Another element getting more and more attention due to its growing widespread use and toxicity when it builds up in your system is Titanium, which is the most common white pigment. Its being found as the source of cancers now, despite its extreme inertness. This one is probably going to be one of the most problematic pigments to try and do without because every other white is either 10 times the cost, or is known to be toxic like lead.

Maybe miniature paints companies should market dental dams.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:04:55


Post by: Just Tony


 Excommunicatus wrote:
You're*

University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.


If that is addressing the post above yours, then you have a problem as their usage of "your" is grammatically correct. If not, you may want to add the quote you're correcting.



Christ on a pogo stick, this thread is becoming more fun by the second.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:15:33


Post by: ph34r


 Stormatious wrote:
I use the top of my left hand to do this. By the end of each session my hand looks pretty ridiculous.
Same here.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:15:58


Post by: AndrewGPaul


If he means this sentence:
 LordofHats wrote:

No. I can spot the law school equivalent of "I took psychology 101 and now I understand everything" just fine. Walking through it again doesn't change how badly your applying a basic principle


then should be "you're". As in "...how badly you are applying …". "your" could work there, but in that case the sentence is missing a clause.

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Model-Color-2018-1.pdf
https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Game-Color-2018-1.pdf

Those are the MSDS for Vallejo MOdel Color and Game Color (you can find them, and MSDS for the rest of their ranges at https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/safety/

I see nothing there to indicate that they're toxic or carcinogenic, but I'm not an industrial chemist or health professional.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:18:21


Post by: AduroT


Yeah, this is about as credible as vaccines cause autism. It’s true, I read a paper on it


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:30:02


Post by: Sterling191


 AndrewGPaul wrote:


https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Model-Color-2018-1.pdf
https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Game-Color-2018-1.pdf

Those are the MSDS for Vallejo MOdel Color and Game Color (you can find them, and MSDS for the rest of their ranges at https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/safety/

I see nothing there to indicate that they're toxic or carcinogenic, but I'm not an industrial chemist or health professional.


Thats about as plain jane as an MSDS gets.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 16:43:06


Post by: LordofHats


University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.


I'm seriously wondering if you can see the funny in this. I'm guessing not but I feel like explaining it would become too mean spirited so... Maybe just leave it to the conclusion with the least assumptions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 aka_mythos wrote:
Maybe miniature paints companies should market dental dams.


That's a weird image. I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth, but it's still a really weird image.

I can still see GW doing it though. They'd charge like $30 for it too, and I'd just laugh and go get one for $5 at some hobby store.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 19:44:52


Post by: Polonius


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Lex parsimoniae says that the answer that requires fewest assumptions is likely correct.

While I don't at all disagree with your opinions on the flimsiness of jury-trials in the civil system, the answer that requires fewest assumptions is that the OP is making this up.


That's a reach, because assuming the OP heard a story of a person getting cancer and suing a paint company is really just as likely as a troll, especially since the post doesn't really come off as a troll attempt.




PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 20:31:59


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


meatybtz wrote:Here is a hint too for the uninformed. We all have cancer. Every single one of us. My daughter does, so does my son at 1 year old. What matters is if our body is cleaning it up or failing to do so. When we "get cancer" it means our body has failed to deal with it. But otherwise, every day our body's natural systems clean up the mess that DNA Replication causes.

Yeah.. no. If it's regulated cell growth, that's just staying alive. Only if it's out of control, it's cancer, by definition.

LordofHats wrote:There was recall on hobby and craft paint just a few years ago that was infested with bacteria. If you don't know what's in it, and you really can't know what's in it, why would you put it in your mouth?

Oh my word, not bacteria! Newsflash, everything around you is covered in bacteria, including you, inside and out. Estimates vary, but "you" consist of about 10 to 100 times as many bacterial as actual human cells. The fact that you're still alive probably means you either got very lucky, or most substances and micro-organisms around you are not killing you very effectively. Do you know what's in the air you breathe? The food you eat? You typically expect them to be safe. Even tested to be safe to a reasonable extent. Well, turns out the same is true for our paints (which at a guess are far less likely to contain problematic multidrug-resistant bacteria than e.g. meat).

 LordofHats wrote:
I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth [...]

Then you'll die. I mean, you can put tubes in the right places and get nutrients and oxygen that way, but without all that fuss, you will want to have chemicals in your mouth every now and then.
What you don't want are toxins.
Which many (most? all?) widely used acrylic paints are not and do not contain.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium. Others (some bought around the same time, but who knows how long they've been on the shelves) simply conform to this ASTM D-4236, also mentioned on Citadel pots and Army Painter bottles. Missing from Coat d'Arms, but both they and Army Painter simply pride themselves on being non-toxic. Citadel actually having the least information available of any of them.
Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 20:49:27


Post by: LordofHats




Want to eat some E. Coli out of the petri dish just because "there's bacteria everywhere?" Hell, maybe they only recalled the product out of fear and the bacteria was perfectly harmless. People eat yogurt all the time and it's filled with harmless/beneficial bacteria.

It's still a stupid idea to put stuff in your body that doesn't normally go into your body. There's being healthily skeptical, and then there's being mindlessly obtuse. Favor the former.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium.


And I'll bet money that Vallejo doesn't have a clue what's actually in their paints, or the components they use to make them. They don't test every pot, or every source they get their materials from. No one does, and that's part of the problem with modern supply chains. They take the providers of their materials at their word, and those providers probably took their providers at their word so on a so forth through the as many as three dozen companies that might be involved in the manufacture and procurement of what goes into commercial products. All it takes is one person/company in that supply chain to lie, be reckless, or even just make a perfectly harmless mistake, and you've got lead paint on children's toys in the local Wal-Mart.

We all have to eat food to live. We do not have to lick our brushes, so go ahead and lick them if you want. I'm not your mother, but this conflation game is asinine.

Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.


Eh. You'll probably be fine. Until your not. Because someone mixed up the paints for some third world country that are filled with mercury and anti-freeze with the ones that are compliant with US regulations. And then you're not fine, and this silly little game of "but everything is dangerous/causes cancer" starts looking really childish.

Also I feel like there's a funny web comic waiting to be drawn in this quote XD


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 21:40:52


Post by: Overread


 LordofHats wrote:
No one does, and that's part of the problem with modern supply chains. They take the providers of their materials at their word, and those providers probably took their providers at their word so on a so forth through the as many as three dozen companies that might be involved in the manufacture and procurement of what goes into commercial products. All it takes is one person/company in that supply chain to lie, be reckless, or even just make a perfectly harmless mistake, and you've got lead paint on children's toys in the local Wal-Mart.


You mean like how Tescos (might have been other supermarkets hit as well) were putting horse into minced beef packets for several months a few years back?!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 22:06:35


Post by: LordofHats


 Overread wrote:
You mean like how Tescos (might have been other supermarkets hit as well) were putting horse into minced beef packets for several months a few years back?!


Yeah, and like that time cyanide somehow found its way into a batch of insulin, or how there's already enough heavy metals poisoning the water table.

And yet, we'll blindly trust not food to be exactly what it says on the label... Although is horse even bad for you? I wouldn't think so, but still. I don't want to eat any ponies. That's nasty. I'd rather eat culturally acceptable food animals, like chicken, or long pork


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 22:31:45


Post by: Insectum7


I used to work in an art supply store and I have seen people TASTE cadmium rich watercolor paints to sample them, as well as lick brushes they haven't bought, along with a number of other high-health-risk behaviors.

There are some crazy-toxic art supplies out there, and some crazy people using them.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 22:42:05


Post by: LordofHats


 Insectum7 wrote:
I used to work in an art supply store and I have seen people TASTE cadmium rich watercolor paints to sample them, as well as lick brushes they haven't bought, along with a number of other high-health-risk behaviors.

There are some crazy-toxic art supplies out there, and some crazy people using them.


Oh, if we're going outside of just what I see people use for wargaming models;

I've seen people wash out oil paints with turpentine and then lick the brush. It's turpentine why does anyone need to be told not to stick it in their mouths? It's got a OSHA label on it XD


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 22:51:01


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Unlike heavy metals, I don't think turpentine builds up in the tissues, and the LD50 is probably higher than what you'll get from licking the brush.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 22:52:31


Post by: Elemental


 LordofHats wrote:

It's not news that paint contains cadmium, among other things. I have no idea why OP feels the need to raise the alarm about it now, but speculating as to their motive is all nothing but assumptions and I don't really see how it matters.


Sharing a legitimate study is understandable. Saying there's proof and then suddenly going silent when asked for it is absurdly and unnecessarily suspicious behaviour, and makes me immediately think of this:




Are you sure you want to be defending someone who does that sort of thing?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 23:06:30


Post by: AndrewGPaul


If MajorTom11 had started this thread with "according to this article, these paints contain potentially toxic levels of cadmium", then we could have looked at the article, and potentially researched the reliability of the study and those who carried it out, and judged accordingly.

However, instead, MajorTom11 essentially asked us to take them at their word. Since they're an anonymous source with no reputation, none of us (unless some of you know who they are in real life) can make any judgement on the reliability of the information in the OP, and thus it's meaningless.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 23:07:12


Post by: stratigo


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given several people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts.




As in, the definitive, sole cause of Cancer? Yeah? From a reputable medical source, peer reviewed, and definitely not The Man In The Pub?


I mean, with this standard nothing causes cancer except swimming in nuclear waste water.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/12 23:39:51


Post by: LordofHats


Unlike heavy metals, I don't think turpentine builds up in the tissues, and the LD50 is probably higher than what you'll get from licking the brush.


No it doesn't, but Turpentine is highly reactive. As much as a tablespoon ingested has immediate health effects. People get killed by the stuff pursuing cheap highs all the time (turpentine will kill you faster than the cocaine it was mixed with).

 Elemental wrote:
Are you sure you want to be defending someone who does that sort of thing?


I literally said I don't think the OP's motives or reasons matter. That's not a defense. It's stating they're irrelevant. The only defense there is calling bad logic bad logic, to which the OP is still irrelevant.

They can be a bald face liar, and it doesn't change that putting chemicals in your mouth is dancing in the danger zone. All this "OP must be lying" and "it's not dangerous" and "why are you defending the OP" talk is missing the forest for the trees. You shouldn't need a reliable source to tell you sticking chemicals in your mouth maybe isn't the safest thing to do. Seriously, did the OP just shoot your dogs or something? You're all making this bizarrely personal for something that should be known and done even without a PSA. Recalls on paint for toxic stuff finding its way in are yearly. They happen all the time. Maybe it's not hobby paints now, but whenever it is who knows when maybe never, it's going to be kind of childish that anyone was this defensive about the possibility.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 00:34:49


Post by: MajorTom11


Lol, this has been pretty amusing boys not gonna lie... I perfectly understand why some won't take what I said at face value and want outside sourcing to validate. 'Trump tactic' comment and all the very reasonable requests for further facts stung, not gonna lie. However, I still won't provide any more detail, for 'reasons', the kind that journalists have not to disclose sources I suppose being the correct analogue. Accept or don't accept, but asking more won't change it. I am sorry I can't give more, for what it is worth.

As to the idea I have something to gain from this? LOL busted! I wanted to troll.... so badly... and I needed a target. I cast about looking for a target that would really blow up with the right pressure point. I realized that some people are avid and militant paint-eaters in the miniature hobby, and set about my scheme... being a moderator here for 5 years, 10000+ posts, many minis painted... all to build up a persona for this moment. Now that my decade long scheme is finally in play, I can sit back and watch the money roll into my bank account when I release my 'mouth free tip sharpener' under yet another name, leveraging the massive new market I have created with my Fake News Machiavellian (™) scheme. PROFIT FROM FEAR

Wheels within wheels people, wheels within wheels.

If that sounds more 'credible' to you than I simply came across some concerning facts and was worried enough to share it... well some of you have already eaten too much paint is all I can say



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 00:44:43


Post by: totalfailure


That's an incredibly condescending and juvenile sounding rationale for your doom-laden IP, which is quite possibly why people aren't taking your vague, unsupported proclamations of the paint apocalypse seriously...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 01:23:15


Post by: Overread


Thing is we get a lot of "cancer scare" messages in the media. I'm sure if one were to hit up some of the more sensationalist major media like the Daily Mail or The Sun chances are you could find loads of "common thing causes cancer" reports.

Without a source for the actual information itself, as opposed to interpretation, its impossible to really make your voice heard above that background noise that decades of media has already generated before you.

Also your sources are not hidden, they are perfectly open and accessible sources of information which is, I'm assuming, how you came across them. Essentially anyone else could find this information though the internet is huge and not everything is online (most is) so might be that it takes a long while before someone does track it down. So at best you're not really protecting, just hiding for a short duration.

Far better to just post up the full details for review. It's the simplest and most effective and powerful means to carrying your message to others. I would argue if you want to make a meaningful effort in passing this information on then pass it on in full as you've found it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 02:33:52


Post by: MajorTom11


So disregard. Lol, guys, no one is holding a gun to your head. Some people have listened, I am pleased for that. Some people already know what I am referring to. If you don't want to listen you can go on with your life without ever seeing this thread again. It's really that simple lol.

I have acknowledged the nature of my message is less than ideal for some. I acknowledge that there is reason to be skeptical particular for those of an empirical and objective bent. I have also said, being aware of all this, I simply did what I felt I could with the circumstances I have. Take it or leave it.

With that this will be my final comment on the matter, anything further is circular. Both sides have been presented, I'll leave to each individual to decide whether they want to lend any credence, or, better yet, simply inspire a few google searches so people can deduce the facts for themselves. Good enough for me. If someone else wants to name the name, they can go right ahead too if that is the way the discussion goes, I'm not in charge here obviously, only of myself.

Have a good one boys -


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 03:02:10


Post by: Ouze


 Just Tony wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So what you are saying is that you have solid evidence that one of the companies in our hobby is producing dangerous materials with insufficient warning of their contents and you're more concerned with preventing a "bash fest" than getting this vital safety information out so that people can avoid the hazard? By withholding this information if anyone here is hurt by these paints their blood is on your hands.


Agreed.


I also agree. The saying is "extreme claims require extreme evidence", but I think this requires at least SOME evidence.

You're saying that there is peer reviewed information out there, which means it's already in the public domain.

I don't think you're trolling or lying because you are a well established, respected figure in this community. If nearly anyone else had posted this I would have just snickered, moved on to a different thread, and forgotten I ever read this one. But, you're not someone else, so I believe you are reporting what you believe to be accurate.

But I don't think it's reasonable to throw something out there, say you have clear and unambiguous, publicly available information, of imminent import to the community, but you can't show us so we can know more and maybe we can do some google searches or something.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Some people already know what I am referring to


Why is this a big secret only people in the cool guy club can know? Do the non-cool people not have a right to awareness of undisclosed toxicity in their products?

 MajorTom11 wrote:
If someone else wants to name the name, they can go right ahead too if that is the way the discussion goes


Can one of the cool guys in the inner circle please tell me, a reforming brush licker, which one of my products is an unlabeled toxin that is provably linked to cancer if ingested? I mean, it seems like Vallejo from searches, right? Vallejo yellows probably? I'm guessing, I have no idea. But want to know!








PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 03:54:26


Post by: meatybtz


 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
meatybtz wrote:Here is a hint too for the uninformed. We all have cancer. Every single one of us. My daughter does, so does my son at 1 year old. What matters is if our body is cleaning it up or failing to do so. When we "get cancer" it means our body has failed to deal with it. But otherwise, every day our body's natural systems clean up the mess that DNA Replication causes.

Yeah.. no. If it's regulated cell growth, that's just staying alive. Only if it's out of control, it's cancer, by definition.

Spoiler:
LordofHats wrote:There was recall on hobby and craft paint just a few years ago that was infested with bacteria. If you don't know what's in it, and you really can't know what's in it, why would you put it in your mouth?

Oh my word, not bacteria! Newsflash, everything around you is covered in bacteria, including you, inside and out. Estimates vary, but "you" consist of about 10 to 100 times as many bacterial as actual human cells. The fact that you're still alive probably means you either got very lucky, or most substances and micro-organisms around you are not killing you very effectively. Do you know what's in the air you breathe? The food you eat? You typically expect them to be safe. Even tested to be safe to a reasonable extent. Well, turns out the same is true for our paints (which at a guess are far less likely to contain problematic multidrug-resistant bacteria than e.g. meat).

 LordofHats wrote:
I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth [...]

Then you'll die. I mean, you can put tubes in the right places and get nutrients and oxygen that way, but without all that fuss, you will want to have chemicals in your mouth every now and then.
What you don't want are toxins.
Which many (most? all?) widely used acrylic paints are not and do not contain.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium. Others (some bought around the same time, but who knows how long they've been on the shelves) simply conform to this ASTM D-4236, also mentioned on Citadel pots and Army Painter bottles. Missing from Coat d'Arms, but both they and Army Painter simply pride themselves on being non-toxic. Citadel actually having the least information available of any of them.
Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.


Thus we all have cancer, sorry, but we do. Now a benign cancer isn't anything to worry about and most are. Malignant is when things get interesting. Never the less the human body is capable, and does, deal with malignant cancers every day. When those mechanisms fail, that's when people start to pay attention. It is why when dealing with cancers the newer treatment directions include trying to activate your body's own defense.
Genetics can suck, I've spent my adult life keeping track of mine and having bits carved out and tested. So far all good for 41 years. Hope it stays that way.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 05:01:30


Post by: Red Harvest


 MajorTom11 wrote:
Well, I'm not gonna do it. Gave my reasons, and I understand your reservations, but I guess if you feel it's scaremongering go ahead and eat your paint and we let natural selection decide lol
You can send 'em a PM with the link. You can send it to me too. S'il vous plait.

Best way to point a brush is to tap the ferrule on the edge of the water cup. Like you're drumming. A quick flick of the wrist while holding the end of the handle. It's also a good way to find out if a brush no longer points as it should. Practice it a few times. Don't do it with a dripping wet brush though. Blot the brush on a towel or something first.

I did a lot of oil painting back in the day, a lot. The generalized warning about don't put any of this stuff in your mouth stuck. And the Radium Girls etc.

Cadmium makes for the best, the absolute best, yellows though. You'll have to pry the bottle of my liquitex soft body cadmium yellow light from my cold dead hands.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 05:06:20


Post by: troa


MajorTom, please understand you've decided to communicate the following: "I have a credible source giving compelling evidence that licking your paint brushes will literally kill you. Instead of actually attempting to give that compelling evidence for an actually convincing post, I'm going to tell you that you should just trust me. I'm not actually going to use the information I have to try to persuade you, thus instead leaving you to continue on licking as you always have." That is indeed trolling at best, or encouraging people to ignore you and thus die at worst. If it's the latter, then there are no positive words to describe your actions in this situation.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 06:02:25


Post by: Vertrucio


There's some real backwards logic.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 06:19:25


Post by: KingmanHighborn


Honestly the best way to keep a brush on point is to roll it with your wet lips. I've been doing it for years.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 06:41:25


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


 MajorTom11 wrote:
However, I still won't provide any more detail, for 'reasons', the kind that journalists have not to disclose sources I suppose being the correct analogue. Accept or don't accept, but asking more won't change it. I am sorry I can't give more, for what it is worth.

You're doing this to protect your source, your source being a publicly available peer-reviewed scientific study? I'd say that is not quite the correct analogue.

So is one of the fortunate people who also knows what this whole sorry affair refers to willing to disclose that fairly important information..?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 07:08:49


Post by: greatbigtree


A dog is the kind of animal that decides if it should put something in it's mouth, by putting something in it's mouth.

GreatBigTree is a dog-person.

Agrax Earthshade has an unsurprisingly earthy flavour, whereas goblin green has kind of a weak mushroom vibe. Nuln Oil has a greasy taste. Lothoren Forest has a whiff of Pine, and a maple finish.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 09:38:26


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 MajorTom11 wrote:
being a moderator here for 5 years


In which case I would have thought you wouldn't be breaking rule 1 by posting

well some of you have already eaten too much paint is all I can say





 MajorTom11 wrote:
Some people already know what I am referring to.


Great. They didn't need this post, and you didn't give the rest of us any useful information.

If you don't want to listen


I'm happy to listen, when you say something. Even Jenny McCarthy referenced a published article. OK, it was wrong, but the point is we could tell it was wrong because she told us where to look.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 10:27:53


Post by: Ouze


I get frustration but please lets try to avoid hostility that might escalate into a thread lock.

I think a lot of people genuinely want to know more, whether it comes from MT or someone else.


Also, the Facebook feed picked this up.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 11:04:43


Post by: Grimtuff


 MajorTom11 wrote:
So disregard. Lol, guys, no one is holding a gun to your head. Some people have listened, I am pleased for that. Some people already know what I am referring to. If you don't want to listen you can go on with your life without ever seeing this thread again. It's really that simple lol.

I have acknowledged the nature of my message is less than ideal for some. I acknowledge that there is reason to be skeptical particular for those of an empirical and objective bent. I have also said, being aware of all this, I simply did what I felt I could with the circumstances I have. Take it or leave it.

With that this will be my final comment on the matter, anything further is circular. Both sides have been presented, I'll leave to each individual to decide whether they want to lend any credence, or, better yet, simply inspire a few google searches so people can deduce the facts for themselves. Good enough for me. If someone else wants to name the name, they can go right ahead too if that is the way the discussion goes, I'm not in charge here obviously, only of myself.

Have a good one boys -


So, IOW just as I predicted earlier ITT.

SHUT UP SAXTON! I'M AN INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, I DON'T NEED TO PROVIDE MY SOURCES! THAT'S WHAT INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM IS!



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 13:09:05


Post by: Trondheim


Oh the irony of postring a public health warning on Dakka, and not citing sources. My faith in humanity still is justified to be low it seems.
Also why dose people need to be told this? Is this now common knowlegdge in the world at large?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 13:17:03


Post by: Grimtuff


 Trondheim wrote:
Oh the irony of postring a public health warning on Dakka, and not citing sources. My faith in humanity still is justified to be low it seems.
Also why dose people need to be told this? Is this now common knowlegdge in the world at large?




That is a visual representation of what the OP has posted.

Cite sources, it's really not hard. Is he thinking Dakka will be under some kind of legal implications for making these allegations if they name the company? "Google it" simply does not work in this case as you can spout any kind of gak on the internet and still have it be taken as gospel. Isn't that right Buster?





PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 13:38:45


Post by: Ghool


If you're worried about what your paint contains, there are things called Material Safety Data Sheets (not sure what they're called these days), that any and every manufacturer is required to surrender by law, if you ask for them.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't know what is in their paint. Especially if you're a brush licker. Ask for the MSDS from the manufacturer and you'll know if there is anything harmful even in the slightest in your paints. It's very easy information to find.

Don't use scare tactics for people to stay informed. Provide the information instead.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 13:43:56


Post by: Yodhrin


 Ghool wrote:
If you're worried about what your paint contains, there are things called Material Safety Data Sheets (not sure what they're called these days), that any and every manufacturer is required to surrender by law, if you ask for them.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't know what is in their paint. Especially if you're a brush licker. Ask for the MSDS from the manufacturer and you'll know if there is anything harmful even in the slightest in your paints. It's very easy information to find.

Don't use scare tactics for people to stay informed. Provide the information instead.


As has been pointed out, repeatedly - the MSDS says what should be in the paint. Given how many links in the supply chain there are for mass produced products, and how much of what goes on in that chain has to be taken almost on faith, whether what's supposed to be in the paints is the same as what is in the paints is a little less than certain.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 13:52:47


Post by: Lance845


 Ghool wrote:
If you're worried about what your paint contains, there are things called Material Safety Data Sheets (not sure what they're called these days), that any and every manufacturer is required to surrender by law, if you ask for them.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't know what is in their paint. Especially if you're a brush licker. Ask for the MSDS from the manufacturer and you'll know if there is anything harmful even in the slightest in your paints. It's very easy information to find.

Don't use scare tactics for people to stay informed. Provide the information instead.


This has been bought up before. MSDS sheets do exist. For paint they exist for the base paint. Not the pigments. Because most paint is made to order to the color it is being produced to. If you want a MSDS for the pigments you need to know the manufacturer of the pigments. Do you know who manufacture GWs pigments? Or any paint companies pigments? I have never seen a MSDS for any paint that said, in summary, "You should eat this". This is speaking from my experience working a sum total of like.... 8 years in a paint store. On top of that pigments have all been far chemically worse than the base paint itself. With the less white the paint the worse they are because even more pigment is in them. And the brighter more vibrant they are the worse they are. Because as above, cadmium and other VERY toxic materials make the best brighter colors. Your yellows, oranges, bright blues. reds etc... And it's not just if your bottle is bright orange. The darker oranges are made with those bright orange pigments mixed with others to get the color you end up with. Any bottle of yellow is likely going to have SOME measure of cadmium in it.

Again, don't eat paint.

Why is it that adults need to be told what you tell preschool aged children? It's not good for you. It can't be good for you. Don't do it. Even without the toxic pigments, it's got acrylic in it. Like.. sheets of plastic acrylic. You are eating plastic.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 14:45:26


Post by: Overread


 Lance845 wrote:


Why is it that adults need to be told what you tell preschool aged children? It's not good for you. It can't be good for you. Don't do it. Even without the toxic pigments, it's got acrylic in it. Like.. sheets of plastic acrylic. You are eating plastic.


Thing is its not adults eating paint, its adults using a painting method which has been used for years and which can result in the ingestion of tiny amounts of paint, but which is typically considered to be such small doses as to be "safe". The OP's point is that even in these low doses a regular painter is exposing themselves to a meaningful level of serious risk up to and including death. That's a big and serious thing to consider and yet without the source its hard to have the viewpoint carry weight.


Googling also doesn't help because you get a lot of old articles on the old radioactive paint used in watches and a lot of websites which recycle viewpoints more than scientific fact. Plus its a horrible mish mash of out old and new all recycled around. Without a clear new article really standing out. Without some experience in this field its hard to sift through fact and opinion. Again its the fact that Google is great IF you know enough of the answer and subject to use the right search terms and sift through the results.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 14:57:25


Post by: Lance845


 Overread wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:


Why is it that adults need to be told what you tell preschool aged children? It's not good for you. It can't be good for you. Don't do it. Even without the toxic pigments, it's got acrylic in it. Like.. sheets of plastic acrylic. You are eating plastic.


Thing is its not adults eating paint, its adults using a painting method which has been used for years and which can result in the ingestion of tiny amounts of paint, but which is typically considered to be such small doses as to be "safe". The OP's point is that even in these low doses a regular painter is exposing themselves to a meaningful level of serious risk up to and including death. That's a big and serious thing to consider and yet without the source its hard to have the viewpoint carry weight.


Purposefully ingesting any amount of something that has chemicals that are not food is still purposefully ingesting chemicals that are not food. It doesn't matter how tiny of an amount it is. You don't tell a kid not to eat paint and then they say "But it was ONLY a little" and then you go "Oh, well thats fine then." There really is nothing to weigh and consider. You (the royal you) have spent years building up a habit of doing a really dumb thing. Stop.

Googling also doesn't help because you get a lot of old articles on the old radioactive paint used in watches and a lot of websites which recycle viewpoints more than scientific fact. Plus its a horrible mish mash of out old and new all recycled around. Without a clear new article really standing out. Without some experience in this field its hard to sift through fact and opinion. Again its the fact that Google is great IF you know enough of the answer and subject to use the right search terms and sift through the results.


It's great to do the research and find out exactly how toxic it could be if you had the information to do the research about this particular case. But the details of any particular case don't actually matter in terms of the practice. There is no good reason to put paint in your mouth. Any amount of it. Ever.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 15:14:20


Post by: greatbigtree


The good reason is that it produces a point that you can contour with your tongue.

As a person with the genetic ability to manipulate my tongue in many ways (some can’t, but I cant tell you my sources) I can shape a point, fan, “barrel”, and even a curve to a standard brush (to reach those tricky armpit spots).

The residual paint on my brush after washing? Very low in terms of potential toxins I constantly consume as part of my day-to-day living. The benefits of ease of brush shaping outweigh the *potential* risks of health damage.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 15:53:22


Post by: Lance845


 greatbigtree wrote:
The good reason is that it produces a point that you can contour with your tongue.

As a person with the genetic ability to manipulate my tongue in many ways (some can’t, but I cant tell you my sources) I can shape a point, fan, “barrel”, and even a curve to a standard brush (to reach those tricky armpit spots).

The residual paint on my brush after washing? Very low in terms of potential toxins I constantly consume as part of my day-to-day living. The benefits of ease of brush shaping outweigh the *potential* risks of health damage.


There are other ways to shape a brush.

I have rarely ever heard someone says something as dumb as "the convenience of this thing I do for gaks and giggles that does not matter is worth the health risk of eating chemicals".

I am not calling you dumb GBT. I am saying that that statement is full on slowed. This isn't a potential health risk like... if I get into my car I MIGHT get into an accident. Instead, if you put your paint brush in your mouth you ARE eating paint. No "might" about it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 15:57:59


Post by: AndrewGPaul


In such small quantities that I don't believe it constitutes harm, or that it's the major source of any harmful toxins (stop saying "chemicals" as some sort of bogeyman word; water is a chemical, a potential toxin and an industrial solvent, after all) I might ingest or inhale. I'm not drinking lead-containing paint by the pint, I'm licking a brush after it's been rinsed.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:01:37


Post by: Filthy_Sanchez


Ok, science lesson time:

Using scare-words like 'toxic' or 'poison' when talking about something that may or may not be in a product is intellectually dishonest without also discussing dosage, even in estimated terms. The dose makes the poison. All things are poison in large enough doses, even water and oxygen. No one here is doubting that these chemicals can cause health problems in large enough doses. Roughly 5% of the cadmium you ingest is taken into the body. Roughly 6% of the cadmium applied to the skin is absorbed into the body percutaneously. From the paper linked below, Germany suggests no more than 15ug/L of cadmium as an upper limit for workers, and shows that on average, a non-smoker has a blood concentration of 0.5 ug/L. This assumes raw, elemental cadmium. Luckily for us, the cadmium used for pigmentation is overwhelmingly in the form of cadmium sulfide (CdS), and occasionally mixed with cadmium selenium (CdSe).

Due to different chemical properties, cadmium sulfide has a MUCH higher lethal dose (LD50) of >5000 mg/kg of body weight, compared to cadmium's LD50 of ~200 mg/kg. While I don't advocate consuming cadmium sulfide for s&g, if you're a paint-licker, you should be totally fine. To play it extremely safe, I'll say that a dose less than 100x smaller than the Lethal Dose (LD50) should fall within NOEL (No observable effect level). So less than 50mg/kg should be a 'safe' consumption level, or for the average adult, less than 3100 mg/day. As the form of cadmium sulfide used in paint pigments is less soluble than the raw cadmium sulfide tested via PubChem, the 'safe' consumption level of cadmium sulfide containing pigment is even higher than the 3100 mg/kg shown due to the way our bodies function with regards to digestion and absorption.

If you honestly believe that the concentration of a chemical like cadmium sulfide in your paint pots is high enough that a few dabs a day from a paint brush, of the size typically used to paint details on miniatures thus requiring a fine tip, on the lips or tongue is going to move the needle in a meaningful way as it relates to bodily absorption, you either don't understand math, don't understand the scientific principles surrounding absorption, or are just really, truly comfortable in your ignorance. Regardless of which of these applies, you shouldn't be scare-mongering by posting nonsense PSA's, especially if you're unwilling to back them up with any kind of citation.

Cadmium toxicity - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1578573/
Cadmium Sulfide PubChem - https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/14783


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:06:46


Post by: Lance845


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In such small quantities that I don't believe it constitutes harm, or that it's the major source of any harmful toxins (stop saying "chemicals" as some sort of bogeyman word; water is a chemical, a potential toxin and an industrial solvent, after all) I might ingest or inhale. I'm not drinking lead-containing paint by the pint, I'm licking a brush after it's been rinsed.


We are not talking about drinking water. We are talking about a hodge podge of a bunch of chemicals that are put into paint to give it a variety of features incudeing it's flow, thickness, color, surfactants, the pigments (which are themselves often compounds of chemcicals), things that help in the steady and even drying and off gasing, the acrylics that make it up.

Don't negate both that you have no idea what you are actually putting in your mouth or trying to make it seem less than what it is by saying water is also a chemical (it is. But thats just distracting from the point). What you believe is toxic is irrelevant. Why would you eat paint at all? Why are ANY of you trying to justify it? lol


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:16:57


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Why are you babbling about "eating paint"? There's basically no paint on the brush that goes in my mouth.

As the post above yours points out, the levels of cadmium compounds are minimal, regardless of your attempts to use scary words like "chemicals!" without a useful context.

Going by Filthy_Sanchez' post and assuming 3.1 g of Cadmium Sulfide is the safe level, you'll be fine drinking an entire pot of paint daily; licking the brush comes nowhere near that. I'm at more risk living in a suburban environment and breathing for 24 hours a day.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:25:53


Post by: Grimtuff


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Why are you babbling about "eating paint"? There's basically no paint on the brush that goes in my mouth.

As the post above yours points out, the levels of cadmium compounds are minimal, regardless of your attempts to use scary words like "chemicals!" without a useful context.

Going by Filthy_Sanchez' post and assuming 3.1 g of Cadmium Sulfide is the safe level, you'll be fine drinking an entire pot of paint daily; licking the brush comes nowhere near that. I'm at more risk living in a suburban environment and breathing for 24 hours a day.


Oh you, ingesting that deadly chemical dihydrogen monoxide.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:26:37


Post by: Lance845


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Why are you babbling about "eating paint"? There's basically no paint on the brush that goes in my mouth.

As the post above yours points out, the levels of cadmium compounds are minimal, regardless of your attempts to use scary words like "chemicals!" without a useful context.

Going by Filthy_Sanchez' post and assuming 3.1 g of Cadmium Sulfide is the safe level, you'll be fine drinking an entire pot of paint daily; licking the brush comes nowhere near that. I'm at more risk living in a suburban environment and breathing for 24 hours a day.


1) Cadmium isn't the only thing in paint. Paint is made up of lots of things.

2) Cadmium isn't even in all paint. It's in specific pigments.

3) You are eating paint. Take the brush out of your cup and wipe it on a piece of paper. does the spot you wiped it on have color? I wonder why that would be.


The amount of paint you should eat is none. Not small amounts. None.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:27:22


Post by: LordofHats


 Lance845 wrote:
saying water is also a chemical (it is. But thats just distracting from the point).


I call it the conflation game.

Where you completely ignore the other person's point, throw up a stupid semantical argument, and proceed to act like it means anything.

As the post above yours points out, the levels of cadmium compounds are minimal, regardless of your attempts to use scary words like "chemicals!" without a useful context.


As I've posted numerous times, the levels of anything in paint are completely unknown, and paint manufacturers regularly issue recalls on paints for excessive amounts of toxic chemicals (among other things). You shouldn't just trust that the pot in front of you is as the label describes, and you're still ignoring that paint isn't the only source of cadmium, cobalt, or chromium in the environment. Water tables around the world are increasingly contaminated with heavy metals from industrial runoff (There are lead rivers in Pennsylvania near me that are literally bright yellow from all the cadmium in them). That doesn't just wash out to sea. It gets into your food and your drinking water.

Recklessly putting any more of it into your body than is already there doesn't sound like useful context. It sounds like wilful ignorance.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:40:41


Post by: AndrewGPaul


I'm not sure I believe your assertion that EU regulations allow free use of toxic pigments in domestic paints, and I can't find any evidence of a safety recall from Games Workshop or Vallejo.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:41:11


Post by: leopard


Can you still wash your brush in your tea?

or is it better to use vodka?

the latter tends to have an effect on paint quality though, on the plus side you do care less though


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:49:08


Post by: Lance845


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm not sure I believe your assertion that EU regulations allow free use of toxic pigments in domestic paints, and I can't find any evidence of a safety recall from Games Workshop or Vallejo.


Go to your local paint store. Ask them about the pigments they put into their paints. Ask them if they can show you the jugs the pigments come in. Specifically ask if you can find out the names of the pigments. They are often given letter designations. "A" for example. "E" at my store was phthalo Blue. A super common synthetic blue pigment. Very likely used in Macragge and anything like it. Not food. Is toxic.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 16:53:13


Post by: LordofHats


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm not sure I believe your assertion that EU regulations allow free use of toxic pigments in domestic paints, and I can't find any evidence of a safety recall from Games Workshop or Vallejo.


Most government regulations allow some use of toxins in most consumer products because they're not really dangerous until they rise to certain levels, or because they're in chemical states where they're inert (cadmium is common in lots of plastics, but bonded plastics aren't very reactive and the chemicals that they are reactive with are not house hold products).

But some companies produce products to different national standards in the same factories, like in the mid-00s when a bunch of toothpaste chock-full of anti-freeze from a Chinese manufacturer wound up in the US instead of South East Asia (On the bright side, South East Asian countries got some US regulation quality toothpaste for once, so you know good for them!). The regulations only protect you so much. Someone else somewhere else doesn't have them or could feth up.

You won't know there's a recall until there's a recall, at which point the product has already gone out to shelves and is in your house. Regulators and companies catch some things before it ever reaches consumers. Some regulators and companies on find out after someone turns up really sick, or dead. You might as well go gamble at a casino. At least that has the chance for an upside.

Nevermind that for all we know chemicals once thought safe will in 25 years turn out to be completely unsafe. People used to sell Radium as a beauty product a hundred years ago.

To wit, you can keep licking your brush. Go ahead. I'm not your mother. But don't be some dullard acting like it can't possibly be dangerous.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 17:31:42


Post by: Red Harvest


 Grimtuff wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Why are you babbling about "eating paint"? There's basically no paint on the brush that goes in my mouth.

As the post above yours points out, the levels of cadmium compounds are minimal, regardless of your attempts to use scary words like "chemicals!" without a useful context.

Going by Filthy_Sanchez' post and assuming 3.1 g of Cadmium Sulfide is the safe level, you'll be fine drinking an entire pot of paint daily; licking the brush comes nowhere near that. I'm at more risk living in a suburban environment and breathing for 24 hours a day.


Oh you, ingesting that deadly chemical dihydrogen monoxide.
Deadly? Citations, please. Here, I'll get you started, Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide Scary, scary stuff.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 17:38:07


Post by: Azreal13


No adult has ever ingested, or consumed in any way, anything they knew to be toxic that had no benefit, ever! Especially if it was entirely legal and "safe."

What's the matter with you all?!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 17:43:30


Post by: Grimtuff


 Azreal13 wrote:
No adult has ever ingested, or consumed in any way, anything they knew to be toxic that had no benefit, ever! Especially if it was entirely legal and "safe."

What's the matter with you all?!


I think some people might need pulling out of that deep sar-chasm they;re about to fall into there...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 18:48:43


Post by: greatbigtree


 Lance845 wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
The good reason is that it produces a point that you can contour with your tongue.

As a person with the genetic ability to manipulate my tongue in many ways (some can’t, but I cant tell you my sources) I can shape a point, fan, “barrel”, and even a curve to a standard brush (to reach those tricky armpit spots).

The residual paint on my brush after washing? Very low in terms of potential toxins I constantly consume as part of my day-to-day living. The benefits of ease of brush shaping outweigh the *potential* risks of health damage.


There are other ways to shape a brush.

I have rarely ever heard someone says something as dumb as "the convenience of this thing I do for gaks and giggles that does not matter is worth the health risk of eating chemicals".

I am not calling you dumb GBT. I am saying that that statement is full on slowed. This isn't a potential health risk like... if I get into my car I MIGHT get into an accident. Instead, if you put your paint brush in your mouth you ARE eating paint. No "might" about it.


I’m not calling you dumb, I’m calling you slowed. I like it. I’m not saying you’re an alien, but... you’re an extra terrestrial.

I’ve been a brush licker for 25 years or so, and have not suffered an ill effect. I also eat gluten, red meat. I smoke, and eat smoked meat. I eat fish and wild game that contains “bad stuff” because pollution. I’ve worked on garbage trucks and had garbage juice drip in my mouth and eyes. I breath welding fumes, put zip ties and other contaminated tools on my mouth. I’ve eaten catnip. I’ve eaten dog treats.

I’ve smoked half-finished cigarettes found on the ground the next morning of an all-night party because I’d run out, lit from a log I pulled out of a fire that had those colour changing packets put in them, plastic garbage burned in it and a *mostly spent* can of silly string exploded in it. Started with a cup of diesel.

I’ve tried holy water. It tasted like bleach. I’m hoping that’s just an additive to reduce the spread of infection from everyone dipping their fingers in it, and not a sign from powers I doubt exist.

I’ve eaten fungus that doesn’t go on pizza. I’ve siphoned gasoline, and gotten a taste of the devil’s wee. I’ve eaten half a worm from a bottle of patron. I’ve tasted pine resin right off the tree.


You call me slowed. I call it gaining XP. I’m a level 37 multi class father/husband/technician/sales/admin assistant/tech support/gamer/survivor/carpe-er of the fething Dieme-er/technical writer/teacher/welder/keeper of the fire/maintainer of the world .

And a few of those XP came from surviving the poison saves I made against diluted paint. So, who’s winning? This guy. You don’t know your limits until you go past them. Lick it! Lick your brush! Grow strong, and wise, like Tree!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 18:56:16


Post by: Lance845


1) i didnt call you slowed. I called the thing you said slowed.

2) All you have done is provide us with a big list of really dumb and disgusting gak you have done and are apparently proud to have done.

If anything, the fact that you did and will do again, all that gross stuff is all the more reason why anyone should steer clear of your advice when it concerns paint licking.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 19:31:54


Post by: greatbigtree


Not necessarily proud. I mean, some of it, yeah.

But the point is all of those things were survived and thrived from. Licking a brush is not only NOT going to harm you in the amount that a model painter might ingest, but may indeed lead to habits and proclivities that will result in a life well lived, and thoroughly enjoyed.

Worrying about piddly things like “oh, sweet yet cruel and uncaring universe. What If that thing I read on the internet is true and touching trace amounts of paint to my body is harmful?! I should never take a chance of that possibly happening! Oh, the horror!” Will result in you curled up in a corner with a blankie, fearing the harmful effects of sunlight.

So seriously, if you’ve never licked a clean brush, for fear of harmful side effects, do it. And live the rest of your life knowing that’s one thing that didn’t kill you. Then try something else. Seriously, big world, go try it.

Everything causes cancer. All good food is bad for you. You need water to live, but if you breathe it you’ll die in about 30 seconds. Figure out what real risks are, so you can decide if taking that risk is worth it. Experience let’s you avoid mistakes and you get experience by making mistakes.

Fear of paint in the mouth is cosmically and absurdly hilarious. People should post their survival stories of their harrowing experiences licking brushes.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 19:52:15


Post by: Lance845


Cool argument.

You know how all those people have done meth but didnt die or suffer immidiate noticably permanent effects? Get out there and live! Do meth! But just a little bit of meth at a time. Life experience! Come back and tells us stories about how you survived meth in small amounts.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 20:02:19


Post by: greatbigtree


I can’t speak to meth. It’s a little bit more dangerous than paint. Which I know because I’ve tried paint, and directly observed the effects of meth on others.

Having tried other “stimulating” substances, and determining that I liked it so much that I never did it again for fear of acquiring an addiction I couldn’t afford, I can say that it was an incredible experience and I’m glad to have experienced it.

But comparing hard substances to paint? Not exactly an equivalence I’d try to argue. Probably why paint is available to minors, over the counter, and Meth isn’t.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 20:09:32


Post by: Lance845


The comparison is not hard drugs to paint. Its things you shouldnt put in your body vs this other thing you shouldnt put in your body.

They both, equally, dont belong in your bodh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was pointing out the logical fallacy of your argument. If just a little bit of this toxic substance that doesnt benefit you is fine then why not just a little bit of THIS toxic substance? Life experience right? This is a good foundation for making decisions!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 20:50:05


Post by: greatbigtree


Your “logical” argument assumes correctness which is itself a logical fallacy. You assume the knowledge of things you shouldn’t put in your body. There are many things I think shouldn’t be put in your body, like hypodermic needles, yet many people require that to continue living. While I don’t compare paint to a hypodermic needle, I will point out my argument is that putting minute amounts of diluted paint in your mouth *for the benefit of shaping a brush* is worth the (near zero) risk of harm.

I can anecdotally prove through 25 years of experience that this practice has been harmless to me, while I’ve enjoyed the benefit of precisely shaped brushes. I’m willing to wager one (1) internet-street-cred against yours that you can’t find a case of illness directly related to the minute consumption of licked brushes, unrelated to lead paint or radioactive paint, by an amateur painter. I recognize that professional painters exposed to industrial paint processes do experience those risks.

My argument is that in minute quantities, there are no harmful effects to brush licking for non-lead, non-radioactive paint. There is a benefit, for some, like me.

Your argument continues to use the false equivalence fallacy. This is illogical. You attempt to straw man my argument by comparing two dissimilar things, which I have not.

I do not suggest consuming, even at microscopic levels, materials that are *likely* to cause immediate harm. Many “hard” substances are killing people all over Southwest Ontario. They can kill in doses less than a tenth of a grain of sand. That has proven, fatal consequences directly and immediately linked to consumption.

Paint does not.

PS: Trying new things, experimenting, taking (usually) smart risks, taking (sometimes) foolish risks, being willing to accept the consequences of my actions and decisions has given me an excellent life. When it gets down to it, I’m content and satisfied with my life and my future. It has been an effective, successful,and enjoyable way to live.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 20:53:29


Post by: Tyton


The OP is 100% talking about Vallejo. It was said very loudly at Adepticon this past year by a gentleman selling paints.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 20:59:38


Post by: greatbigtree


Sweet. I’m a Citadel man, myself. In yo’ face, hate-ahs!

Don’t chug paint. It might upset your stomach. Or do, and maybe become a YouTube sensation, your call. Happy weekend to you all!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 21:09:10


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


 Lance845 wrote:
I was pointing out the logical fallacy of your argument. If just a little bit of this toxic substance that doesnt benefit you is fine then why not just a little bit of THIS toxic substance? Life experience right? This is a good foundation for making decisions!

The whole point however is that the paint is, in fact, not toxic. (Until proven otherwise by the OP. I'm not holding my breath.) Toxic in the meaning of "harmful to your health at any quantities even remotely near those you might ingest". Paranoia about any hypothetical potential contamination compromizing its saftey is as relevant here as it is to the air that you breathe, the food you eat and the water you drink, or the car that you drive, or the airplane you board, or the microwave you use, or the blanket you sleep under, or the chair you sit in, or the rollercoaster you ride, or the phone you use, or [...]. You can't be 100% certain they're safe, but they should be, so you have to live by that assumption. You can say that you have to put food in your mouth, but don't have to put the brush there. But neither is supposed to be harmful, so it doesn't matter. And while requiring nutrients to stay alive is all well and good, there is a lot of processed food with a complicated supply chain you could do without, yet still happily consume, assuming it to be safe (correctly assuming, most of the time). You could avoid many of these risks, but the risks are so low that they are negligible, and indeed should be ignored unless you want to drive yourself mad.
It's not that this is risk factor you could easily avoid. It's that it simply isn't a risk factor by any stretch of the imagination.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/13 21:12:20


Post by: Azreal13



Tyton wrote:
The OP is 100% talking about Vallejo. It was said very loudly at Adepticon this past year by a gentleman selling paints.


t's also likely bs.

One quick Google shows a thread from years ago on the Reaper forum with people losing their gak because Vallejo was poison.

Then the next day, somebody actually suffering from cancer refuting the whole thing, basically they weren't typical and were looking for a possible cause. Vallejo paint was a possibility, but nothing concrete. Vallejo had done nothing wrong in terms of legality and while cadmium is present in their paint, it is in an inert form and not considered toxic.

A little further down the first page of Google, as find that Vallejo reformulated and removed cadmium in any form 5 years ago.

This looks decidedly apocryphal in the absence of further info.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 00:29:28


Post by: Camkierhi


Just want to say a thank you to Major Tom, if you are young and coming into the hobby, as apposed to the salty crowd commenting, pay heed to a master (Major Tom). It is not good to suck on paint brushes. It is also not good to use spray cans in doors, or use glues and other chemicals in an unventilated areas.

I do not need to be given scientific journals to tell me that sticking paint in my mouth is a bad idea. Regardless of quantity. Why do people have to be so silly about this stuff. If you have gone through life licking your brush, that is up to you, the advice in the OP is still valid, especially for anyone just starting out in the hobby. No point starting bad habits. I am not comparing licking your brush to cigarettes, but it is a similar argument, some people go through life smoking 20 a day and never have an issue, others die young because of it. Most people will not really be affected at all by licking their paint brush, but some might be affected, and therefore it is not a good idea to start a bad habit.

Guess I am trying to say, why the hell are people arguing. Good solid advice from respected member of the community. Just find it incredible that people argue about this stuff.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 05:02:11


Post by: Ouze


 Azreal13 wrote:

Tyton wrote:
The OP is 100% talking about Vallejo. It was said very loudly at Adepticon this past year by a gentleman selling paints.


t's also likely bs.

One quick Google shows a thread from years ago on the Reaper forum with people losing their gak because Vallejo was poison.

Then the next day, somebody actually suffering from cancer refuting the whole thing, basically they weren't typical and were looking for a possible cause. Vallejo paint was a possibility, but nothing concrete. Vallejo had done nothing wrong in terms of legality and while cadmium is present in their paint, it is in an inert form and not considered toxic.

A little further down the first page of Google, as find that Vallejo reformulated and removed cadmium in any form 5 years ago.

This looks decidedly apocryphal in the absence of further info.


Thank you for the info.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 06:06:34


Post by: RiTides


Let's stay on topic, please. The discussion and criticism is valid and useful, and worth having in a broader sense even beyond the details of a certain case. So please, no thread derailment here - thanks!

For myself, this is a habit I've been meaning to kick anyway. I'm curious, what do people use instead of licking their brush tips - brush soap to sculpt it back to shape when done painting? But what about in the middle of a painting session?

It's so easy to lick the paintbrush tip, that I'd be much more likely to be successful in changing habits if I had an alternative!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 06:20:54


Post by: MajorTom11


This at least is an answer I can give -

Generally so long as your brush is rinsed sufficiently, and you have kept paint away from the ferrule (the metal sleeve the bristles are housed in) you shouldn't have much trouble at all simply rolling the brush on tissue while damp to repoint perfectly. If you are having trouble, you have options such as rolling the brush on the back of your hand as I am sure you guys have seen many pro's do, as your body oils can condition the brush and make it hold together a bit better than water. If you are at wits end, then gross as it sounds, a little spit on the back of the hand will work too.

Brush cleaner should be applied between sessions in a thorough clean, the main goal of it is to break up semi dry and maybe even dry paint, particularly as tends to accumulate up towards the ferrule as time goes on. This is ultimately what messes up your brushes.

When you are done, re-point your brushes using one of the mentioned methods, the brush should be slightly moist with water, place it back in it's protective clear plastic sleeve or put it someplace it won't be jostled at all on the brush portion and as it dries it should retain the point and be conditioned to continue to do so.

#1 rule for 'you' care: Don't eat paint if you can help it. (Don't need to freak out if a little bit once in the while, but if you are going to town 5 nights a week for a few hours each, yeah you've got a habit there lol)

#1 rule for brush care: Keep paint away from the ferrule
#2 rule for brush care: don't squish and splay the bristles on a brush you want to keep a point on.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 08:52:05


Post by: filbert


I use Masters soap, rinse it off, blot with tissue paper and then use my thumb and forefinger to shape the point. Never realised people stuck it in their mouth, to be honest.

But then, as echoed above and earlier, surely any advice, regardless of its citations or sources or lack of, not to stick things in your mouth that you don't know the provenance of, is good advice?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 09:41:55


Post by: Ketara


I think a few people in this thread should be aware that MajorTom was a moderator here sometime back, and certainly does not fall into the 'troll' camp (even if he does 'tag 'lol' onto half his sentences - crazy colonial types....). So no, he's not a complete stranger here to others in the community, and probably not just chucking stuff out for a casual giggle. He does have a certain degree of reputation, and is known to more than one other person on here in real life. It';s not April fools day.

MajorTom has acknowledged that he cannot (for various unspecified reasons) name any names. He's stated that what he's saying has involved credible scientific testing (not publication in an academic journal). Unfortunately, Majortom has also stated that he cannot disclose that testing either, despite knowing full well that on the internet, that is basically akin to shooting yourself in the foot. The reasons for that also remain unspecified. It should be kept in sight that there are several fully legitimate reasons for this sort of statement (working for the manufacturer, court cases, personal/business relationships at risk, and so on).

Some people are consequently so focused in on the lack of evidence that they're missing the point he's actually trying to get out; namely, don't lick your brushes with paint on if you can help it. Why?

It is always worth bearing in mind the following issue some very sensible users have raised:-

 Yodhrin wrote:


As has been pointed out, repeatedly - the MSDS says what should be in the paint. Given how many links in the supply chain there are for mass produced products, and how much of what goes on in that chain has to be taken almost on faith, whether what's supposed to be in the paints is the same as what is in the paints is a little less than certain.


Hidden horse steaks are still well in memory for many.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 13:05:36


Post by: Filthy_Sanchez


@Ketara - It isn't credible scientific testing if the scientists involved are unwilling to share their materials, methods, and findings for others to double check, regardless of whether it was published or not. Proclamations that someone should change their actions, due to unspecified harm which may or may not befall them if they don't change, is the definition of the term scare-mongering. Some general good advice you're failing to give out in your defense of OP is: Do not engage in scare-mongering. Likewise, do not propagate 'scientific' claims which lack shareable evidence.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 13:25:03


Post by: Ketara


Filthy_Sanchez wrote:
@Ketara - It isn't credible scientific testing if the scientists involved are unwilling to share their materials, methods, and findings for others to double check, regardless of whether it was published or not.


Absurdity. By this logic any classified piece of research isn't 'credible scientific testing'. Disseminating your materials, methods, and findings for other people to doublecheck effectively IS publication,.

Regardless of which, my 'defence of OP' is nothing more than an assembly of the facts; namely:-

1. The user is an established member of the community, known to many, and is highly unlikely to be 'trolling' for fun. The odds are thus consequently weighted that he believes what he is saying (regardless of the veracity of his statement).
2. The user, being aware of what 'scientific testing' usually consists of, claims that such testing has occurred in this instance. The odds are thus good that some form of testing in a laboratory has taken place (on chemical composition given the subject matter)
3. The user is unable, for whatever reason to provide that evidence here and is aware of and acknowledges that as a limitation. There are many legitimate reasons for that being the case. If I settle out of court, for example? That would be a reason. If I'm friends with the wife of the company involved, and don't want to get someone into trouble? I might abstain from providing evidence. If I left the company under a black cloud as a whistleblower and signed an NDA? Again, the same.

That's it. That's the case, in a nutshell. You can take it or leave it. Given the common sense approach to putting chemicals in my mouth anyway, Occam's Razor would, for me, dictate the minor change in behaviour. Cancer is kind of nasty, and wiping my paintbrush on something other than my tongue is not exactly difficult. But your mileage may vary.

It is fine to believe that OP may be mistaken, fooled by something, or just generally an idiot. But the odds here are strongly that he believes what he saying, and that he has seen something convincing enough to give him that belief. Given that he is now communicating that belief under unspecified restrictions, it is up to you to decide whether or not to discount him or not. That's all there is to it, really.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 13:43:10


Post by: Excommunicatus


 greatbigtree wrote:

The residual paint on my brush after washing? Very low in terms of potential toxins I constantly consume as part of my day-to-day living. The benefits of ease of brush shaping outweigh the *potential* risks of health damage.


I used to live in London, ON - by the Thames (no, really) - and can confirm that it is awash in toxins, pollution and general filth.

Lavish is good, though.

I live in Hamilton now and I smoke, so even if this is true - which it isn't - I've got bigger fish to fry. No-one makes it out alive.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 14:09:33


Post by: greatbigtree


(@ExCom) (I lived in London, ON, Adelaide North, immediately East of Adelaide. Currently Ingersoll, ON. The Thames runs right through the middle. I probably wouldn’t lick a brush rinsed in that. Sorry about the Hamilton thing. )


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 14:49:17


Post by: posermcbogus


Alright, MajorTom, we aren't naming names, but say...

...I use Tamiya paints and citadel paints, and I lick my brush. Will I die of cancer?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 15:05:46


Post by: timetowaste85


Personally, I don’t think MajorTom is trolling. I like MajorTom. He’s been an awesome member of the community and a Mod since I’ve been on the site. But I DO think not being willing to share the information is a bit of BS.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 15:38:21


Post by: Lance845


 posermcbogus wrote:
Alright, MajorTom, we aren't naming names, but say...

...I use Tamiya paints and citadel paints, and I lick my brush. Will I die of cancer?


You guys think of this in entirely the wrong terms. It's like you have the all or nothing mentality of a diet fad.

"Bacon is potentially a carcinogen says this guy! So never eat Bacon!"

This isn't lick brush = gets cancer.

This is Paint = emulsion which is a unstable chemical compound full of unknown amounts of a whole lot of different things that varies not just color to color (because pigments are different) but bottle to bottle because ultimately people make mistakes, and none of which are meant to be ingested.

People used to use the phrase "eats paint chips" to describe people with mental handicaps.

(Start at 6:00)





PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 15:49:01


Post by: Azreal13


Yes, for the very specific reason that some paint used to contain lead, which, when consumed as a juvenile, cause inhibition of brain development.

You know, something supported by facts, figures, scientific investigation....



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 15:54:01


Post by: Lance845


 Azreal13 wrote:
Yes, for the very specific reason that some paint used to contain lead, which, when consumed as a juvenile, cause inhibition of brain development.

You know, something supported by facts, figures, scientific investigation....



No, that is not the very specific reason.

Are you aware that almost all paints are produced with mildewcides in them? Or again, that almost all pigments are toxic to some degree? Did you know that because we have shifted from oil based products to water based that paints are mostly an organic compound and they can go bad by developing bacteria in them? When they do actually turn they smell like spoiled milk because of the waste chemicals produced by said bacteria. It's water in there.Things can live in that.

Focusing in on the single hot trigger word "lead" or "chromium" while ignoring EVERYTHING else that is in the paint is insanity.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 16:37:19


Post by: Azreal13


https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/lead-poisoning.html

The most common way that kids get lead poisoning is from lead-based paint. This type of paint was used in many U.S. homes until the late 1970s, when the government banned the manufacturing of paint containing lead.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
You really need to stop lecturing people on things when they remember them and you only read about it on Wikipedia.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 16:43:56


Post by: LordofHats


And there's a recall right now on some rust-oleum cans for containing lead. What's you're point?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 16:49:30


Post by: Azreal13


That "eating paint chips" as a reference for slow kids is a well known reference to lead paint being used in the 20th century. As anyone who was alive during the 70s onwards will be more than aware of, and that trying to somehow retroactively make it some sort of wide, deeply informed, reference to all the other things that might be in paints now or then is just the sort of thing that somebody that has learned it from the internet rather than being around long enough to understand the reference because of experience is likely to try and argue.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 16:54:08


Post by: LordofHats


 Azreal13 wrote:
That "eating paint chips" as a reference for slow kids is a well known reference to lead paint being used in the 20th century. As anyone who was alive during the 70s onwards will be more than aware of, and that trying to somehow retroactively make it some sort of wide, deeply informed, reference to all the other things that might be in paints now or then is just the sort of thing that somebody that has learned it from the internet rather than being around long enough to understand the reference because of experience is likely to try and argue.


And your point?

I think you're talking right past anything Lance is actually saying and harping on the least important things he posted. Which is basically this entire thread in a nutshell.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 17:03:07


Post by: Azreal13


Not taking past it, just disregarding it as a typical, hair on fire, millennial type response to something that should be so minor as to be inconsequential. Sure there's things in things that might hurt us if used inappropriately. There's thing in things that might hurt us if used as directed sometimes, and sometimes we don't find out until it's too late.

My point was that he was trying to justify using a reference in a context that was inappropriate to try and strengthen his argument, and it's largely a pointless thing to argue over anyway, many of these cancer studies are inconclusive or based on such small studies or small margins as to be meaningless.

Additionally, getting so worked up over other people being stupid is a sure fire way to insanity. Eating tiny amounts of paint is about the least destructive self destructive thing I can conceive of, and anyone who acts surprised that there might be things in the paint they're eating that aren't good for them is probably giving Darwinism a boost.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 17:12:02


Post by: LordofHats


 Azreal13 wrote:
Not taking past it, just disregarding it as a typical, hair on fire, millennial type response to something that should be so minor as to be inconsequential. Sure there's things in things that might hurt us if used inappropriately. There's thing in things that might hurt us if used as directed sometimes, and sometimes we don't find out until it's too late.

My point was that he was trying to justify using a reference in a context that was inappropriate to try and strengthen his argument, and it's largely a pointless thing to argue over anyway, many of these cancer studies are inconclusive or based on such small studies or small margins as to be meaningless.

Additionally, getting so worked up over other people being stupid is a sure fire way to insanity. Eating tiny amounts of paint is about the least destructive self destructive thing I can conceive of, and anyone who acts surprised that there might be things in the paint they're eating that aren't good for them is probably giving Darwinism a boost.


And why not lead with that? That's all fairly reasonable, minus the veiled petty insults. For something you consider largely pointless, it's confusing that you focused on it instead of the substance of the discussion.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 17:18:55


Post by: Azreal13


If you're confused, probably best not dwell in it then. Perhaps you don't work the same way, but I don't have a whiteboard with all my ideas and arguments planned out before I enter a thread, I tend to respond what grabs my attention rather than work to some great blueprint.




PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 17:52:53


Post by: LordofHats


I don't think anyone functions that way, but the internet would be a lot less absurd if people took maybe a few seconds to think before they speak... no wait a minute that's not the internet that's everywhere.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 18:09:26


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


The most important thing seems to be that the paints in question should not contain lead/chromium/cobalt/Iranian enriched uranium/etc., are not being recalled for having been found to contain those, there is no available proof they contain these substances anyway, and thus no reason to believe they are any health hazard (be it via inhalation, skin contact, or indeed minimal amounts of ingestion).

I'm not claiming "brush licking" is definitely safe. All I'm saying is that there is, at present, no reason to believe it poses any credible threat to anyone's wellbeing (in the context of Citadel/Vallejo/Army Painter type acrylic paints). Some may choose to err on the side of caution, for fear of contamination of the paints or the fact that some components in the paints will later be found to be more dangerous than expected. As I see it, those hypotheticals could apply to most things in life, so I'd rather focus my worries on more pressing issues. I personally will continue to put the brush in my mouth, not because I'm a maverick, not because I don't value my health, but because there has of yet not been shown any evidence telling me why I shouldn't. Keeping a brush tip tidy may seem a small gain, but that still weighs heavier than the costs, which at present appear to be zero.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 18:13:40


Post by: Lance845


1) you dont know how old i am.

2) you dont know the basis of my experience. Though if you took the things i posted about myself in this thread as true you would note my experience of near a decade working with paints.

3) hats is right. My first post about lead and cancer that you went on this about was about the whole thing not being about lead or cancer. It doesnt matter if paint is a carcinogen. It doesnt matter if lead is in it. The issue with eating paint isnt a question of will it give you cancer or not. The issue is simply that it is full of unknown quantities of unknown substances every single one of which are not designed for your consumption. Do you dispute that?

If no, then why the feth would anyone in this thread encourage anyone else to lick their brushes dunked in dirty paint water and used to paint?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 18:55:44


Post by: Red Harvest


 RiTides wrote:


For myself, this is a habit I've been meaning to kick anyway. I'm curious, what do people use instead of licking their brush tips - brush soap to sculpt it back to shape when done painting? But what about in the middle of a painting session?

It's so easy to lick the paintbrush tip, that I'd be much more likely to be successful in changing habits if I had an alternative!
My answer here. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/777739.page#10502128 It really works.

Brush licking is an odd habit to defend or be proud of.

[Edit to add] It's like being proud to be a booger eater.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 21:05:25


Post by: Elemental


 LordofHats wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Are you sure you want to be defending someone who does that sort of thing?


I literally said I don't think the OP's motives or reasons matter. That's not a defense. It's stating they're irrelevant. The only defense there is calling bad logic bad logic, to which the OP is still irrelevant.

They can be a bald face liar, and it doesn't change that putting chemicals in your mouth is dancing in the danger zone. All this "OP must be lying" and "it's not dangerous" and "why are you defending the OP" talk is missing the forest for the trees. You shouldn't need a reliable source to tell you sticking chemicals in your mouth maybe isn't the safest thing to do. Seriously, did the OP just shoot your dogs or something? You're all making this bizarrely personal for something that should be known and done even without a PSA. Recalls on paint for toxic stuff finding its way in are yearly. They happen all the time. Maybe it's not hobby paints now, but whenever it is who knows when maybe never, it's going to be kind of childish that anyone was this defensive about the possibility.


I'm being cranky because the OP is trolling--and I don't care about their rep, I'm just reading what they're posting right now. I'm not going to take yet another health scare story seriously without evidence, when I'm already pretty much saturated with fear of the world and every single substance in it. This one has no evidence, so I choose to dismiss it rather than inflict even more fear upon myself. When you add to that their incredibly condescending, baiting tone, it's clear that they're not worth taking seriously for a moment.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 23:25:02


Post by: Bookwrack


 timetowaste85 wrote:
Personally, I don’t think MajorTom is trolling. I like MajorTom. He’s been an awesome member of the community and a Mod since I’ve been on the site. But I DO think not being willing to share the information is a bit of BS.


MajorTom11 is lying about something? How is that news?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 23:38:19


Post by: RiTides


I know Tom is catching a lot of heat here (possibly from previously being a mod, as I can't see where the comment above mine would be coming from otherwise).

But while obviously his not being able to share the evidence means a lot of folks won't take him seriously, I'd like to point out this is only his third thread started in Dakka Discussions in 6 years. Of the others, one was a similar public warning, about a scammer who plagued Dakka for years until he was finally ferreted out - and that thread absolutely helped the community with an issue about which much was unknown. It is actually the main reason the scammer finally abandoned Dakka as a target, I think!

So again, it's totally fair to say someone won't take the warning seriously without seeing the evidence. But Tom is one of the most trustworthy people on this site, and you can easily see it in the history I mentioned above. So, for me at least, that's enough to take it seriously and kick a habit I've been meaning to, anyway.

I also have a feeling some of the google searches / references above about paint formulas which have since been updated are probably close to the mark. But I have plenty of paints from before the dates mentioned, so not taking any chances personally!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 23:38:21


Post by: Alpharius


That seems unnecessarily harsh.

I stand with MajorTom!!!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/14 23:53:05


Post by: MajorTom11


 Bookwrack wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
Personally, I don’t think MajorTom is trolling. I like MajorTom. He’s been an awesome member of the community and a Mod since I’ve been on the site. But I DO think not being willing to share the information is a bit of BS.


MajorTom11 is lying about something? How is that news?


I can't recall anyone before this thread ever calling me a liar... wrong sure, but not a liar, ever. Well except Daniel Mandelbaum but I mean... c'mon

Gotta admit that one gave me a chuckle Bookwrack gg lol



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 02:58:31


Post by: greatbigtree


Major Tom, as a fellow Tom, I neither believe you a troll, nor do I believe you a liar. I think you are probably well intentioned, and this is your best approach.

My perspective, is that people ought to worry about problems. Brush licking isn’t a problem. It doesn’t hurt you. There’s a reason there are anti-smoking campaigns, and there aren’t anti-brush-licking campaigns.

It is my anecdotal observation, that people need to experience fearful situations and painful situations so that they can appreciate and understand what other people go through. If we train people to be fearful of harmless things, then we do them a disservice. We train them to believe that “this scary dangerous thing” is bad. So they don’t have a sense of the grey area between good and bad.

I’ve had a long day of looking after other people’s kids. My son’s birthday party with his friends was today, I’m drained and feel the cohesion of my thoughts disintegrating.

It is likely my “chaotic” nature that rebels against the need for “lawful” folks to prefer yes and no answers. Yes, consuming anything in excess is bad. No, licking a brush is not consuming to excess. I just find this kind of “don’t do this harmless thing because it has a non-zero chance of causing harm if this other non-zero chance thing occurs” to grate on me in a way that just feels intrusive somehow. Like it tries to take away personal responsibility for actions because people can’t be “trusted” to make decisions at all. Which is, I suppose, the core conflict between “lawful” and “chaotic” personalities.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 03:43:46


Post by: MajorTom11


First of all, please let me say I appreciate the civility, the presentation of your argument, all of it. Thank you very much for that Brother Tom. 100% genuine there man, just in case it comes across as anything but.

To your point... I 1000% percent agree with you about scaremongering derived from 'preference/belief/faith' based pseudo science. I have gone after many many an anti-vaxxer, chem trailer, brown menacer etc etc. I so get it, why this bothers some of you.

If you guys will indulge me a second here though, think of it this way: As some people have mentioned in this thread, it is known that a company had a heavy metal contaminant in their paint a few years ago. This was not from me but a few others in this very thread. You guys can find it if you try, here and elsewhere.

If it was Lead in the paint, people would have gone ballistic. Because everyone knows Lead paint is bad. It's a thing. It's in the zeitgeist.

What if it was Arsenic in the paint in trace amounts? Or Mercury? Hell no! We all know those names, POISON right? I'm not willingly putting arsenic in my mouth, not even just a little bit.

Tell em it's Cadmium? meh.... not that big a deal... I don't get that much in my mouth.

Here is the thing boys. Cadmium is in the top 4 most dangerous, toxic heavy metals out there, in the same category as... drumroll... lead, mercury and arsenic. It gives you lovely little specific cancers too, among other problems.

So what I am telling you is the fact some of the bottles on your shelf, if they are from a few years back, could have a lead/mercury/arsenic equivalent in them? I HOPE it gets a bit harder to be 'no big deal' about it. I hope you feel that knowing that happened, that other people than me in this thread heard about it, knew it, is a legitimate cause of concern.

Like I said, this news is neither particularly new nor really particularly fresh. What concerned me, enough to start this thread, is that it didn't really seem to gain traction in the hobby just how bad getting CADMIUM in your mouth can be, and pretty quick. When I found out my safe-zone kid friendly paints had Cadmium in them, I was pissed. I knew from fine arts not to fek with that stuff.

On top of it, the information I received was more specific than the above which is already known, and I cannot share it, but the concern is not anecdotal or theoretical. I know that is a trigger for some of you, as it would be for me, but please, if you could, just for a second try to reason out legitimate reasons why i couldn't say anything more. One that isn't malicious, or self-aggrandizing ego work, one that is ethically motivated. I am sure you could come up with one or two that make sense, so at least give me the possibility that it is something positive and respectful, not trollish or condescending.

I probably should have gotten into the specifics of why Cadmium, common in fine arts paints, is such a threat in this hobby. Picasso wasn't sharpening his 2" flat head brush with his mouth back in the day. They also knew some paint was poison back then as a given. The culture surrounding it was different. It is the advent of our hobby and tiny brushes and supposedly non-toxic paints that gave rise to this habit and the nonchalance surrounding getting paint in your mouth.

All I am saying is it has ALREADY happened that a quite toxic heavy metal ended up in our kid safe paint supply. It was already supposed to be safe and ok. It was already supposed to be regulated. But it wasn't. That at least you can verify from more than just me. So, based on that, I choose to be cautious. You don't have to if you don't want to, smoking is just as bad but people (including me) have done it. You can go 20 years before it gets you. I choose to remove the risks, because I have perfectly viable alternatives that give me razor sharp brush points without putting anything in my mouth.

If you or anyone choose not to, I am completely ok with that. I just thought people should know so they can make a choice based in the already available facts. Which are, again, a large paint company had Cadmium in some paints, and that those paints, though older now, are still out there. If you want the name, it's in the thread and on the net.

Ok that was longer than expected and I know I said I would bow out of the thread, but at the risk of feeding trolls, I do care about this community, I would have wanted to know sooner than this. It is for those who feel the same and missed it the first time that I brought it up again.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 04:15:23


Post by: greatbigtree


Thank you, Brother Tom, for looking out for the community. Despite our different values / approaches, and although I doubt that I or anyone in our community is at risk of health concern from shaping a brush with our mouth, I believe the desire to help and concern for our wellbeing is at the core of your post.

I hope the future disentangles you from your potential ethical shackles / other reasons for withholding potential information.

Now please excuse me. Like watching a movie where someone smokes, all this talk of brush licking has given me a craving. I’m thinking it’s a Mephiston Red kind of night. Be well, Brother Tom.

(PS: Just in case, I’m also being genuine, in the unfortunate event that I sound sarcastic. My wife tells me that my “genuine” voice and “sarcastic” voice are hard to tell apart. Except for the Mephiston Red part which I hope comes across as a joke. )


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 04:33:02


Post by: MajorTom11


It does, I am sarcastic as hell IRL, ask those other mods, no worries! Again, thanks for the civil debate, I appreciate it Brother Tom


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 04:52:30


Post by: Argive


I'm a guilty brush licker, been meaning to unlearn the habit. Are alternative useful hacks/tactics and solutions discussed in the thread other than using your mouth to make a good point?


Asking because I would rather avoid going back through 6 pages worth of unnecessary arguments(probably about semantics or nothing pertinent).


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 04:57:52


Post by: MajorTom11


I gotcha -

 MajorTom11 wrote:
This at least is an answer I can give -

Generally so long as your brush is rinsed sufficiently, and you have kept paint away from the ferrule (the metal sleeve the bristles are housed in) you shouldn't have much trouble at all simply rolling the brush on tissue while damp to repoint perfectly. If you are having trouble, you have options such as rolling the brush on the back of your hand as I am sure you guys have seen many pro's do, as your body oils can condition the brush and make it hold together a bit better than water. If you are at wits end, then gross as it sounds, a little spit on the back of the hand will work too.

Brush cleaner should be applied between sessions in a thorough clean, the main goal of it is to break up semi dry and maybe even dry paint, particularly as tends to accumulate up towards the ferrule as time goes on. This is ultimately what messes up your brushes.

When you are done, re-point your brushes using one of the mentioned methods, the brush should be slightly moist with water, place it back in it's protective clear plastic sleeve or put it someplace it won't be jostled at all on the brush portion and as it dries it should retain the point and be conditioned to continue to do so.

#1 rule for 'you' care: Don't eat paint if you can help it. (Don't need to freak out if a little bit once in the while, but if you are going to town 5 nights a week for a few hours each, yeah you've got a habit there lol)

#1 rule for brush care: Keep paint away from the ferrule
#2 rule for brush care: don't squish and splay the bristles on a brush you want to keep a point on.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 05:05:11


Post by: Lance845


 greatbigtree wrote:

My perspective, is that people ought to worry about problems. Brush licking isn’t a problem. It doesn’t hurt you. There’s a reason there are anti-smoking campaigns, and there aren’t anti-brush-licking campaigns.


The reason there are anti smoking campaigns is because if you use the product they are marketing to you as intended it causes harmful effects to your body.

The reason there are not anti brush licking campaigns is because people who make paint tell you not to ingest paint. You have to go out of your way to do the thing they tell you not to do to get the problems.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 05:27:58


Post by: greatbigtree


Lich, please.

They put “hot” warnings on coffee cups and do-not eat warnings on desiccant. They label bags *directly on the bag* and tell you not to let babies play with bags because they might suffocate. I’m frankly surprised they don’t label knives “not to be used as a suppository.”

*Anything* that can potentially harm the user is plastered with warnings. Kinder Eggs (a chocolate shell with a toy inside) are not allowed to be sold in the USA because a kid might not understand the toy inside the chocolate is *not* for eating.

A *mostly* harmless plant has just recently begun being decriminalized/legalized in many parts of North America. It was made illegal for no credible reason (at the time) because fear.

My point is that I do not observe... no. It’s way too late and I’ve got to work tomorrow. At this point I’m arguing just to argue. You’re arguing yes or no without considering the space between in which no harm is the overwhelmingly probable outcome. I can’t change a fundamental perspective of reality by internet post. Good night, Lance.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 07:13:29


Post by: queen_annes_revenge


I was a habitual paintbrush sucker, but I'm trying to break the habit now, and lately I've been using my thumb as a surface to get the right brush shape after rinsing instead. Its a had habit to break though.. I've even considered starting chewing gum so my mouth is too preoccupied to lick my brush. if a brush is cleaned and dried I dont think using lips to form a point is a big deal though.

I know about cadmium from my occupation. never realised it might be in paints though.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 09:38:26


Post by: JohnnyHell


Well this all seems a bit Daily Mail without any actual proof. Moving on...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 11:07:19


Post by: Polonius


I think that this would have been pretty presented in a different manner. Instead of framed as "I have information I can't share," I think it would have better framed as a reminder that toxicity varies by concentration, and the QA on hobby paint may not be great, and that keeping paint ingestion minimal is wise.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 12:19:47


Post by: Nurglitch


I do like that there's a strong "Keep on lickin'!" contingent though.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 12:36:52


Post by: Excommunicatus


There's a Forensic Files episode out there where a lady was given 400x the lethal dose of a heavy metal (I want to say thallium) by her doctor husband.

She survived, 'cause of the slow, methodical way she was exposed.

But yeah, you're totally gonna lose your hair and die with burning feet 'cause you licked a brush that might have been contaminated.

Because POISON, yo.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 12:37:55


Post by: Ketara


 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I was a habitual paintbrush sucker, but I'm trying to break the habit now, and lately I've been using my thumb as a surface to get the right brush shape after rinsing instead. Its a had habit to break though.. I've even considered starting chewing gum so my mouth is too preoccupied to lick my brush. if a brush is cleaned and dried I dont think using lips to form a point is a big deal though.

I know about cadmium from my occupation. never realised it might be in paints though.



Having looked around the web a little, it seems to have been present in Vallejo paints up until half a decade or so ago. So if it's a new bottle, you're probably alright, but if you've got the older stuff (and some of it is probably still on sale in shops -paint don't expire!) - it might be best not to lick your brush when using it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 12:46:49


Post by: Red Corsair


Paint absolutely expires. It's why I shake and check every bottle before I buy them...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 13:18:09


Post by: Ketara


 Red Corsair wrote:
Paint absolutely expires. It's why I shake and check every bottle before I buy them...


Well yes, but so do people, pyramids, and suns. I meant it more in a short-term nature. I'm still using some paints I bought a decade ago, and got a 12 year old Coat D'Arms paint out a shop the other day which was perfectly good. I imagine plenty of people have five to six year old Vallejo paints in their box.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 13:32:18


Post by: Excommunicatus


I have a four-year old art paint from Dollarama that is still going strong.

Two of them, actually.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 13:49:41


Post by: LordofHats


Bacteria and stuff growing in paint (or at least, the kind that might hurt you), is definitively not normal. As far as I know most paint is "good" until it completely dries out and even then you can revive the stuff a bit by adding water. If the issue is that there are still paints out there that have some heavy metal toxicity in them, and they're all years old, then the next smartest thing to do (setting aside the obvious) is to check for a manufacturing date on your paints. Make sure you don't have any from the manufacturer and years in question.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 14:09:51


Post by: Excommunicatus


Or, take a look at the world around you and invest your energy into worrying about real problems instead.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 20:32:37


Post by: Vertrucio


 Excommunicatus wrote:
There's a Forensic Files episode out there where a lady was given 400x the lethal dose of a heavy metal (I want to say thallium) by her doctor husband.

She survived, 'cause of the slow, methodical way she was exposed.


They probably don't mention the terrible life she led afterwards, and she probably still died of it sooner than later.

For a group of people dedicated to min maxing out the entirety of their game, it seems a bit odd that people are unwilling to min max this seemingly small tip.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 22:41:51


Post by: Taarnak


 MajorTom11 wrote:

On top of it, the information I received was more specific than the above which is already known, and I cannot share it, but the concern is not anecdotal or theoretical. I know that is a trigger for some of you, as it would be for me, but please, if you could, just for a second try to reason out legitimate reasons why i couldn't say anything more. One that isn't malicious, or self-aggrandizing ego work, one that is ethically motivated. I am sure you could come up with one or two that make sense, so at least give me the possibility that it is something positive and respectful, not trollish or condescending.

No one seems to be doubting that brush licking is not the best habit, or that heavy metals are bad for you. What is in doubt is your assurance that there is hard, scientific, peer reviewed evidence that hobby paint, specifically hobby paint, caused cancer in someone.

As to what I quoted above, please... There are no legit reasons not to share what you claim to be publicly available information. And ethics should dictate that you reveal your source to get your warning across to as many people as possible. Morally, as well, probably. If we are talking professional ethics, then you should not have said anything at all.

Your reputation on this internet message board full of strangers means absolutely nothing when it comes to health and safety warnings.

Personally, I don't understand brush licking. I do understand the annoyance being broadcast at Tom though.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/15 22:55:49


Post by: ph34r


If there truly is a problem worth making a thread about let alone being alarmed about and warning others, the thought of then refusing to reveal the 'what' and the 'how' of this problem makes absolutely zero sense to me.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 03:40:44


Post by: greatbigtree


If you’ve never been caught by the short and curlies in an ethical conundrum, you’re lucky.

Guy says he’s stuck, no real reason to doubt him. Balance of probabilities, I’d say he’s trying to help.

I don’t agree with the position, but I don’t think he’s doing anything but trying to get people to reconsider consuming paint (to any degree).

Again, given the quantities I don’t believe it’s a harmful action. I can’t imagine possible health *benefits* either, but I’m not shaping a brush with my tongue for my health, but to get the shape I want.

There’s little value in attacking the person. Consider the value of the message.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 03:58:50


Post by: ingtaer


Well said GBT, there are plenty of reasons why Tom would not be able to have total openness but the fact that he felt strongly enough about it to still post and open himself up to the criticism of the people here speaks volumes.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 04:05:19


Post by: insaniak


 Excommunicatus wrote:
There's a Forensic Files episode out there where a lady was given 400x the lethal dose of a heavy metal (I want to say thallium) by her doctor husband.

She survived, 'cause of the slow, methodical way she was exposed.

But yeah, you're totally gonna lose your hair and die with burning feet 'cause you licked a brush that might have been contaminated.

Because POISON, yo.


Thallium mostly leaves your body within days. Cadmium accumulates in your body for up to 20 or 30 years.


So yes, just like that one time handling mercury, you're not about to keel over immediately after sticking a paint brush in your mouth... but it's absolutely a good idea to avoid sticking potentially toxic paintbrushes into your mouth as a long-term habit.


Honestly, I've never understood the brush-licking thing anyway.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 13:12:30


Post by: Azreal13


Assuming we are talking about cadmium, and with the caveat that my formal chemical education finished some years ago, it does appear that concerns are I'll founded.

A quick bit of research shows that the compound used in paints is cadmium sulphate, which is not considered that toxic, and because it's bound into a pigment it isn't particularly soluble in the body and therefore very little is absorbed.

The danger is present when using dry pigment and inhalation is possible, alongside things like chalk pastels coloured with cadmium derived pigment.

That essentially appears to be the reason why some paints till use it, technically there is increased risk, but is considered low enough that the much higher quality paint is worth it.

There is still a movement towards replacing it where possible, but the only issue seems to be if someone was using it and not making that known so people can't make an informed decision. The little bit I've seen specifically about Vallejo seems to suggest they've fulfilled their obligations in this regard, so even that doesn't seem to be an issue.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 13:26:13


Post by: Excommunicatus


Vertrucio wrote:

They probably don't mention the terrible life she led afterwards, and she probably still died of it sooner than later..


She is interviewed, at length, in the show some four years after the fact. Her name is Deborah Pignataro and the episode is called 'Bad Medicine'. As far as I can tell, she is still alive nineteen or so years later. I doubt her life was great after, but I bet it had more to do with the fact her husband tried to kill her.

So, nyet.

insaniak wrote:
Thallium mostly leaves your body within days.


It's not really my area, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. The CDC isn't conclusive, but seems to agree with me.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750026.html

In any event, it was arsenic she was dosed with.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 15:34:01


Post by: Polonius


Okay, well, this thread has spurred me to go on a dive into Cadmium safety. Here's what I found out:

Cadmium is toxic, with various ailments arising acutely after exposure. However, this is usually in an industrial capacity, and inhalation is far more dangerous than ingestion. The NIH does say that cadmium can cause lung cancer, which is a double whammy because smoking also increases your cadmium intake. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/cadmium

As for cadmium pigments, which are compounds with cadmium in them, the dry pigments are generally seen as toxic and dangerous, again especially when inhaled. Outside of a few fringe sources, nobody seems terribly concerned with the actual paint, since the emulsifier would really limit absorption. It's worth noting that the EU, despite having a hair trigger for banning even borderline toxic substances, still allows cadmium pigments.

For a fun read, this artist talks about the time his cat walked through cadmium paint, and began licking it up, all with no ill effects. https://www.danschultzfineart.com/is-cadmium-paint-toxic/

I found some sites very eager to link cadmium to cancer, but one was literally called "Cancer wisdom," and no kidding, talking about how a person had a filling improperly removed, and then got cancer on a finger the next day. https://www.cancerwisdom.net/heavy-metal-toxicity-and-cancer/

Okay, so looking at the actual warning here, it's easy to say, "well, better safe than sorry" and accept it at face value. And, sure, there's probably no real loss in utility to stop shaping brushes by mouth.

However, I think that the OP is either drastically overstating the certainty of his claim that hobby paint gave people cancer, or overstating his duty to avoid revealing more information. The reason I think that is because based on what I could find about cadmium, it's toxicity, it's pigments, and it's use, a claim that a hobby paint caused cancer requires a few leaps. First, it requires the leap that a compound which is generally seen as safe when not inhaled caused cancer through ingestion. Second, it requires medical certainty that this fairly uncommon metal caused the cancer, instead of any other factors. Third, it requires pigments, which are generally not absorbed when emulsified, to be absorbed at a higher rate than normal.

All of this seems unlikely, especially given the rationale provided by the OP in a follow up:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So, peer review is a term of art use in academics, which is unlikely here. Now, assuming the OP meant "verified by second opinion," that's fine, but what really worries me is that final clause. "proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law." That... does not mean much. That means that they had enough medical testimony to convince a finder of fact (jury or judge) that the paint, more likely than not, caused the cancer. Keep in mind that neither the judge nor jury knows anything about heavy metal toxicity or cancer.

Even if a hobby paint with cadmium caused cancer in a few people, that doesn't mean it will be generally dangerous. And based on what I've read, the biggest danger wouldn't be brush licking, which is essentially ingesting highly diluted pigment, but airbrushing, which would involve inhalation, the more dangerous route of absorption.

As for the "ethical quandary," I dunno. Usually people cannot reveal specifics due to ethical rules (medical or legal privacy), a signed NDA, or because they are a journalist who needs to protect a source. But he's not making a general warning. He's pretty clearly saying "Vallejo paints gave people cancer." And then saying, "but I can't tell you how I know that." Given what I've noted above, the only real way to know this would be a fairly extensive scientific study, if the OP had access to peoples medical files, or active litigation. The problem is, if he was involved in treatment or litigation, he shouldn't be saying anything. That's not an ethical conundrum, that's just the rules.

Based on the line about proving it in a court of law, I'm going to take a guess that the OP knows one or more people who have had cancer, and sued a paint company over it, and received a settlement with a non disclosure agreement. Which means that he wouldn't be able to say why he knows without risking those settlements. If this is the case, than there's all more reason to doubt the certainty of the claims. Company's settle cases all the time, especially if the settlement would be lower than the cost of litigation.

I know this was a lot, and I certainly don't think the OP is being malicious, but I think that the level of concern is both misguided and overstated.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 15:41:49


Post by: Excommunicatus


 Polonius wrote:

So, peer review is a term of art use in academics, which is unlikely here. Now, assuming the OP meant "verified by second opinion," that's fine, but what really worries me is that final clause. "proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law." That... does not mean much. That means that they had enough medical testimony to convince a finder of fact (jury or judge) that the paint, more likely than not, caused the cancer.


I would argue that it doesn't even say that. It doesn't say it was definitely probative, it doesn't even establish that the 'paper' was referred to or relied upon by the factfinder either in the ratio or the obiter. In the most generous interpretation possible, it says "it was deemed more probative than prejudicial and thus admissible".

Big whoop.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 18:53:47


Post by: Lance845


 Polonius wrote:
Okay, well, this thread has spurred me to go on a dive into Cadmium safety. Here's what I found out:

Cadmium is toxic, with various ailments arising acutely after exposure. However, this is usually in an industrial capacity, and inhalation is far more dangerous than ingestion. The NIH does say that cadmium can cause lung cancer, which is a double whammy because smoking also increases your cadmium intake. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/cadmium

As for cadmium pigments, which are compounds with cadmium in them, the dry pigments are generally seen as toxic and dangerous, again especially when inhaled. Outside of a few fringe sources, nobody seems terribly concerned with the actual paint, since the emulsifier would really limit absorption. It's worth noting that the EU, despite having a hair trigger for banning even borderline toxic substances, still allows cadmium pigments.

For a fun read, this artist talks about the time his cat walked through cadmium paint, and began licking it up, all with no ill effects. https://www.danschultzfineart.com/is-cadmium-paint-toxic/

I found some sites very eager to link cadmium to cancer, but one was literally called "Cancer wisdom," and no kidding, talking about how a person had a filling improperly removed, and then got cancer on a finger the next day. https://www.cancerwisdom.net/heavy-metal-toxicity-and-cancer/

Okay, so looking at the actual warning here, it's easy to say, "well, better safe than sorry" and accept it at face value. And, sure, there's probably no real loss in utility to stop shaping brushes by mouth.

However, I think that the OP is either drastically overstating the certainty of his claim that hobby paint gave people cancer, or overstating his duty to avoid revealing more information. The reason I think that is because based on what I could find about cadmium, it's toxicity, it's pigments, and it's use, a claim that a hobby paint caused cancer requires a few leaps. First, it requires the leap that a compound which is generally seen as safe when not inhaled caused cancer through ingestion. Second, it requires medical certainty that this fairly uncommon metal caused the cancer, instead of any other factors. Third, it requires pigments, which are generally not absorbed when emulsified, to be absorbed at a higher rate than normal.

All of this seems unlikely, especially given the rationale provided by the OP in a follow up:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So, peer review is a term of art use in academics, which is unlikely here. Now, assuming the OP meant "verified by second opinion," that's fine, but what really worries me is that final clause. "proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law." That... does not mean much. That means that they had enough medical testimony to convince a finder of fact (jury or judge) that the paint, more likely than not, caused the cancer. Keep in mind that neither the judge nor jury knows anything about heavy metal toxicity or cancer.

Even if a hobby paint with cadmium caused cancer in a few people, that doesn't mean it will be generally dangerous. And based on what I've read, the biggest danger wouldn't be brush licking, which is essentially ingesting highly diluted pigment, but airbrushing, which would involve inhalation, the more dangerous route of absorption.

As for the "ethical quandary," I dunno. Usually people cannot reveal specifics due to ethical rules (medical or legal privacy), a signed NDA, or because they are a journalist who needs to protect a source. But he's not making a general warning. He's pretty clearly saying "Vallejo paints gave people cancer." And then saying, "but I can't tell you how I know that." Given what I've noted above, the only real way to know this would be a fairly extensive scientific study, if the OP had access to peoples medical files, or active litigation. The problem is, if he was involved in treatment or litigation, he shouldn't be saying anything. That's not an ethical conundrum, that's just the rules.

Based on the line about proving it in a court of law, I'm going to take a guess that the OP knows one or more people who have had cancer, and sued a paint company over it, and received a settlement with a non disclosure agreement. Which means that he wouldn't be able to say why he knows without risking those settlements. If this is the case, than there's all more reason to doubt the certainty of the claims. Company's settle cases all the time, especially if the settlement would be lower than the cost of litigation.

I know this was a lot, and I certainly don't think the OP is being malicious, but I think that the level of concern is both misguided and overstated.


Good breakdown of cadmium. Now find every other chemical that is inside paint and do a similar break down of all of them.then take the results of all the indiviual chemicals and combine them for a net effect that paint can have on you.

Again. Licking your brush isnt licking 1 particular substance. Its an unknown amount of a great many substances.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 18:57:38


Post by: Excommunicatus


Do you buy pearls in bulk, or do you just clutch the same ones over and over?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 19:20:16


Post by: Nurglitch


Ew, pre-clutched pearls? What are we, farmers?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/16 19:27:42


Post by: insaniak


It's possible to be civil, even when you disagree with someone, folks. I would recommend it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 00:12:12


Post by: RiTides


Nurglitch wrote:
I do like that there's a strong "Keep on lickin'!" contingent though.

I thought this was pretty good

However, I also thought Polonius' breakdown was excellent, from the skeptical point of view. In the end, it's a piece of information, along with the comments about older Vallejo paint people posted from googling in this thread.

It doesn't mean everyone has to adjust, but for me, I actually Have Vallejo paint older than the change, so this was very useful. And if something like that could be the case as recently as 5 years ago, it stands to reason it could occur again (or already be occurring). So for myself, it's an easy, no brainer change to make.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 00:28:29


Post by: MajorTom11


Remembering also you can get a perfect brush tip without putting it in your mouth... there’s really nothing to lose.

Ps- respect to polonius for the research and breakdown, he is a clever man. I disagree with a few of the conclusions derived from it, but solid.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 04:27:32


Post by: Cynista


Weird, I just bought a Cadmium yellow ink yesterday. I'll try not to lick my brush, or indeed drink it.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 07:06:24


Post by: MajorTom11


Cadmium is very common in fine arts, it is hands down the best, purest source of yellow, orange and red primaries. That being said, in fine arts, no one is showing a 2 inch flat brush in their mouths, and in addition to that cadmium, there are all kinds of other no bueno for the body pigments. Cobalt, Titanium, zinc... all kinds of other stuff, heavy metals are common. So are things like bug shells and poo lol.

Which is kind of ultimately the only real point here. Most paints have no ingredients list. Nor do they say 'safe to ingest'. Some do, most don't. But we are living in an era where a lot of people are spreading their wings beyond GW paints and others lines are not designed to be kid friendly by a mega-corp. Go to an oil, or enamel (this should be obvious on those 2) or even a fine arts acrylic class and you won't see anyone sucking on brushes. If you airbrush you are supposed to wear a mask to avoid getting random nonsense in your lungs as a rule. It's only really this hobby in my anecdotal experience that is agnostic in it's attitude towards consuming art materials at any level. Everyone else avoids it. And if you are buying fine arts supplies and new paint companies, you have no idea what is in them. Like none. Beaver Anal glands makes for a lovely purple color, but do you really want to be eating it even if it isn't toxic?

All of you should ask yourselves what you really know about what is exactly in each and every one of your paints. If you generally have no idea, then why are you so casually licking it?



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 07:31:26


Post by: Laughing Man


 MajorTom11 wrote:
Beaver Anal glands makes for a lovely purple color, but do you really want to be eating it even if it isn't toxic?

Yes, because it's a common ingredient in ice cream.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 08:39:32


Post by: MajorTom11


Used to be. Castoreum. But not for a good long while, they stopped because it was too expensive and difficult to produce, and couldn’t keep up with the market. And when people found out what castoreum was they thought it was fekking gross.

Now it is only really used in fragrances. So as stoked as you may be to chow down on some beaver ass unfortunately it’s not in the cards at baskin and robbins anymore lol... admire the enthusiasm though!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 10:01:48


Post by: Coenus Scaldingus


MajorTom11 wrote:Used to be. Castoreum. But not for a good long while, they stopped because it was too expensive and difficult to produce, and couldn’t keep up with the market. And when people found out what castoreum was they thought it was fekking gross.
True, but...
MajorTom11 wrote:Cadmium is very common in fine arts, it is hands down the best, purest source of yellow, orange and red primaries. That being said, in fine arts, no one is showing a 2 inch flat brush in their mouths, and in addition to that cadmium, there are all kinds of other no bueno for the body pigments. Cobalt, Titanium, zinc... all kinds of other stuff, heavy metals are common. So are things like bug shells and poo lol.
.. "bug shells" are a pretty common source of food colouring (and other purposes besides). Carmine. Perhaps best known as the reason why people following a kosher/halal/vegan diet do not eat red M&Ms. E120 in the EU. There's plenty of weird stuff in food, or used in the production of it, that people are unaware of, but as long as it's not dangerous, it doesn't really matter.

All of you should ask yourselves what you really know about what is exactly in each and every one of your paints. If you generally have no idea, then why are you so casually licking it?
I don't know what's in the bottle of amaretto in my cupboard. I don't know what KFC's secret herbs and spices are. I don't know what's in the paint on the walls of my house. I don't know what's in the air I'm breathing. Just because I don't know it, doesn't mean nobody does. It's good to be cautious, but consumer products, food and air quality are all subject to certain levels of safety monitoring. If my bottle of paint tells me it's "non-toxic" and "does not contain As, Cd, Co, Cr, Hg, Pb, Sb, Se", I'm quite willing to believe people have checked that, and I won't take out my own chemistry set to test it out. As said before, there are rather more pressing matters to worry about.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 11:15:30


Post by: insaniak


That was hyperbolic.

Nobody's telling you to bust out a chemistry set. Just suggesting that maybe paint doesn't belong in your mouth.


It's bizarre that there's even an argument about this.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 12:50:18


Post by: aldo1234


 insaniak wrote:
That was hyperbolic.

Nobody's telling you to bust out a chemistry set. Just suggesting that maybe paint doesn't belong in your mouth.


It's bizarre that there's even an argument about this.


In my opinion the bizarness isn't the actual idea of putting paint in your mouth its the fact someone has "peer reviewed evidence that can stand up in court" without releasing it. Everything can kill you in certain doses, its this sort of scaremongering that made Anti-vax such a big thing. People hear about heavy metals in things and instantly freak out, and it should be banned and restricted and heaven forbid putting it in your mouth, that's instant death to you and your whole genetic family. When in the case such as this its in such a minute dose that it would never cause any harm UNLESS there is some sort of peer reviewed data which can stand in the court of law that someone has which has definitive proof which is then being withheld, for reasons???


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 13:35:53


Post by: Excommunicatus


Ayuh, I don't believe anybody has said "eating paint is a great idea and I endorse it".

The pushback has been against the ridiculous notion mentioned above and the strong contingent of Helen Lovejoys this board has apparently amassed.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 13:37:38


Post by: Ratius


*goes off to goggle Helen Lovejoy.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 13:53:23


Post by: Excommunicatus


 Ratius wrote:
*goes off to goggle Helen Lovejoy.


Reverend Lovejoy's wife, from The Simpsons.

Springfield's premier pearl-clutcher.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 14:42:54


Post by: queen_annes_revenge


seems a little rich...


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 15:31:49


Post by: Laughing Man


 MajorTom11 wrote:
Used to be. Castoreum. But not for a good long while, they stopped because it was too expensive and difficult to produce, and couldn’t keep up with the market. And when people found out what castoreum was they thought it was fekking gross.

Now it is only really used in fragrances. So as stoked as you may be to chow down on some beaver ass unfortunately it’s not in the cards at baskin and robbins anymore lol... admire the enthusiasm though!

Then maybe if you're going to scaremonger about additives you shouldn't pick something that's actually food safe to clutch your pearls about.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 15:55:27


Post by: whitedragon


Here's my peer reviewed findings about things that are toxic.

https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/20-toxic-things-you-probably-use-every-day.html

Essentially, we are all on borrowed time.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 16:01:40


Post by: MajorTom11


Sign me up for your 'Make Castoreum Great Again' campaign then bud

Did you know some Yellows used to be made with the urine of mango fed cows from india? Yum yum it won't kill you so bottom's up! I won't scare people by asking them to consider not drinking the cow urine.

So ridiculous...





PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 16:23:27


Post by: meatybtz


 MajorTom11 wrote:
Sign me up for your 'Make Castoreum Great Again' campaign then bud

Did you know some Yellows used to be made with the urine of mango fed cows from india? Yum yum it won't kill you so bottom's up! I won't scare people by asking them to consider not drinking the cow urine.

So ridiculous...





Well, boiled animal (and possibly human) urine was used as an antiseptic. I wouldn't recommend it, but it does appear to have medical value as a topical antiseptic. Honey doe as well. There are a lot of unpleasant things used in the past that while they have value in medicine.. yeah they at least worked.

*licks brush in your direction while having a lewed expression that would make slaneesh blush*

I don't recommend people LICK paint filled brushes but there is nothing wrong with pointing a brush that is clean.. and no your skin does not work as well unless you have some oily skin. Also saliva works as a "slow dry" for acrylics.. lol.

Point of fact, breathing causes cancer.

While we have been able to extend the human life span we have not been able to extend the useful lifespan of humans in any significance. We've only manged to extend the period of decrepitude. Yay modern medicine. Those who are hale and hearty in the twilight years also tend to be ones whose genetics are the cause for such, not lifestyle. Most Centenarians have what most of us would call "risky" habits, such as eating lots of bacon, grease, etc.. or smoking.

Genetics has a greater impact than lifestyle, though lifestyle does impact lifespan it does so more for those of us w/o the genetic gift of long useful life.

Still this whole threat is somewhat ridiculous. Not ingesting large quantities of chemicals is generally a good thing.


That all being said...

YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. EVERYONE ON THE FORUM WILL DIE... LIKELY IN AN UNPLEASANT MANNER.

Oh well...

Anyways getting your knickers in a twist of a small cancer chance on a forum where likely cardiovascular health is more likely to be the killer is.. somewhat funny.

One more edit. Heavy metals are most dangerous in organic molecular form.. or dust, nano-particle. In general the most dangerous thing we use in our hobby is the dry pigments who even if inert can cause lung damage or lung cancer as a result of the particle being unable to be removed from the lungs. When they say don't breath the dry pigments folks.. they mean it. By that same measure the nano-dust particles created by passing vehicles over a hard road surface is about as bad and carcinogenic.. I am pretty sure that most of you live by roads.... so just.. umm.. hold your breath.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 16:54:51


Post by: MajorTom11


 meatybtz wrote:

Anyways getting your knickers in a twist of a small cancer chance on a forum where likely cardiovascular health is more likely to be the killer is.. somewhat funny.


Yeah. Unless you are a guy with cancer from mini paints. Or more than one. Then all of a sudden laughing about it to their faces and saying it's nothing to worry about loses a bit of steam. Is it pearl clutching while you are having chemo?

Utterly ridiculous guys. If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof. But the rest is substantiated, there was a risk, that risk is still on many shelves both at home and at stores. We can debate severity, but not the existence of it. Also remember the changed their formulas real quick, because it was a problem. And if you are entertaining that I am not lying about people getting sick even for a second, remember what you are laughing about.

This topic can be discussed without going to these ridiculous binary ends. Like there's a group of smokers laughing that it hasn't killed them yet therefore it's fine and potentially even a good idea.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 17:27:56


Post by: greatbigtree


I do enjoy the effects of Nicotine, and knowing engage in the risk-increasing behaviour because I enjoy the effect.

I knowingly participate in risky behaviour, because I enjoy it. That may not be a “good enough” reasons for others, but it’s good enough for me.

PS: Careful Tom, the veneer is wearing off your polite discussion. We’ve both had a respectful discussion, I’d hate to see that go downhill.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 17:33:43


Post by: MajorTom11


I smoked too, for more than a decade. I still miss it tbh. But I never told anyone it was fine because I hadn't gotten sick yet. Which is the logic a few seem to be employing. I'm not telling anyone they have to take my advice. I am merely asking they consider the decision, because a lot of people in this hobby don't know much about paints beyond their use, and a lot of people assume it's all crayola grade kid-safe.

If you take it all in and decide you don't consider it worth changing your behaviour over, good on you. It is absolutely and completely up to you, and I make no bones about it. Just like smoking, it's your choice, and admittedly a lot less risky just in case anyone thinks I am drawing a 1:1 risk comparison as opposed to a behaviour related to it. My advice is NOT to do it. But of course it is not up to me to make decisions for you. Just trying to spur consideration.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 19:53:56


Post by: insaniak


aldo1234 wrote:

In my opinion the bizarness isn't the actual idea of putting paint in your mouth its the fact someone has "peer reviewed evidence that can stand up in court" without releasing it. Everything can kill you in certain doses, its this sort of scaremongering that made Anti-vax such a big thing. People hear about heavy metals in things and instantly freak out, and it should be banned and restricted and heaven forbid putting it in your mouth, that's instant death to you and your whole genetic family. When in the case such as this its in such a minute dose that it would never cause any harm UNLESS there is some sort of peer reviewed data which can stand in the court of law that someone has which has definitive proof which is then being withheld, for reasons???

And, again, nobody claimed it was 'instant death'. The hyperbole doesn't actually serve any useful purpose.

Something to consider - documents presented in a court of law are quite often not freely shareable on the internet, particularly when a settlement is involved, since an NDA is quite commonly a part of any settlement with a corporation...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:

Then maybe if you're going to scaremonger about additives you shouldn't pick something that's actually food safe to clutch your pearls about.

The fact that an additive is used in food doesn't actually mean that the same, food-safe version of that additive is used in paint.

Anything used in food or medicine tends to have much more stringent controls on it than ingredients for things that aren't designed to go into your body.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 20:11:21


Post by: greatbigtree


Instant death is hyperbole, but so is putting "anything that doesn't belong" in your body to be unimaginably stupid.

There has not been anything presented, regardless of reason, to believe that paint without a warning on it is "toxic" or even capable of long term harm. Common sense would dictate not to take a risk without benefit. The brush-licking afficionados believe the benefit of shaping the brush that way is worth the perceived lack of risk.

In much the same way that breathing dust, smog, exhaust, welding fumes, or any other manner of crap into your lungs is a bad idea, it's usually better than not breathing.

And one tiny huff of exhaust isn't going to kill you, or harm you in any real way, and it might be convenient to cross the shop rather than walk around outside. So the benefit is convenience for a non-zero risk of inhaling exhaust and experiencing problems related to that.

So the people that are "Pro Licking" are really just "Not-Anti-Licking" on the basis that there is little to no perceived threat.

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 21:28:19


Post by: Ketara


 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 21:46:18


Post by: greatbigtree


If I had them, I probably would continue. I’ve been a Citadel Schmuck my whole life, so it’s a moot point for me.

While unscientific, I just can’t imagine that the minuscule amount of paint I ingest after rinsing my brush is harmful. I don’t imagine I’m going to get super-powers from ingesting it, but I also doubt it’s doing me any harm, and I, personally, would not change my habit.

I’m a risk taker by nature. I have to have a good reason *not* to do something, and the reason *not* to do something has to have sufficient consequence to overcome my curiosity / desire to try / continue doing an activity.

I certainly bite off more than I can chew sometimes, but that is an acceptable risk for me. I’m not saying that way of living is for everyone, and not in a “brag-y” kind of way. Well, maybe a little. Mostly it’s a case of live and let live. I’m very comfortable with uncertainty whereas some people are very much not.

I would have been one of the doubters when things like cigarettes and asbestos first started having claims leveled at them. But once proven, I change patterns. If a report I could see linked an ingredient from paint to being toxic / fatal in levels at which I would consume it (like, say, fentanyl) then I would stop and thank my lucky stars I made it.

But... I’m doubting that’s going to happen.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 22:07:55


Post by: Mario


 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/17 23:32:12


Post by: Ketara


Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles.


Well....yes? I mean, I thought it was implied by the subject area and venue of discussion that when I said 'will you continue licking older Vallejo paints?', I don't literally mean 'dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles'.

I apologise. I should have clarified that I meant 'Will you continue sucking minor quantities of paint residue off your brush from a specific brand/batch of paints which appear to be under suspicion of having above-average ratios of toxic chemicals which could potentially be a health hazard if imbibed on a regular basis over the lengthy period of time such as hobbyists of our ilk tend to paint for'.

But you know, I thought it would be shorter to say what I did.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 01:17:55


Post by: greatbigtree


I’ll stand by my earlier yes answer. I knew where you were coming from.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 01:43:29


Post by: MajorTom11


Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).



That's very true. If I was able to provide more concrete evidence on the exact nature of the problem and the precise quantity and exposure windows they need to be in order to be toxic vs likely harmless that would be ideal. For the 20th time, I deeply apologize for that entirely legitimate shortcoming and sincerely wish I could do more. That being said, information on Cadmium and other common pigments, even including to their form suspended in acrylic medium /emulsion IS available to take in. Polonius found some of it and tagged it. The only thing you need to take my word on it for is that people actually got sick with direct link to hobby paint. Other than that, it's all out there.

It bears repeating, this branch of the hobby is really the only place I have seen people above the age of 5 (not being pejorative, I mean it literally) sticking the drawing/marking end of media into their mouths. Military hobbyist guys don't do it, Gunpla guys don't do it, fine arts canvas and multi-media artists CERTAINLY don't do it, dating back 100's of years. (SO many toxic paints, lead white was apparently absolutely amazing looking, best white ever, no joke, but... lead). This is the only art where people do this with any regularity with materials not explicitly, entirely designed for children. And so, so many of us use supplies from other hobbies now, and that is what makes the habit entirely too risky in my opinion. This isn't citadel only land anymore. Many of you are trying oil washes, or using enamels for pin washing. Or using lacquer paint in your AB. These things are vastly more dangerous than citadel, and many people are carrying over their citadel/wargaming habits into other areas like it's all the same. Many of us are using AB's too and not worrying about a think, and again, that is just plain not safe with many products making their way into our hobby. Lacquer paint is NOT cool to be breathing unfiltered on the reg.

There is a huge difference between 'I haven't seen enough from MajorTom11 to reverse my habit, so I'm going to continue' and 'Hey guys! Paint hasn't killed me yet so there is nothing to know... don't bother to ever question or learn about any product we have because it's all good'.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 01:52:39


Post by: Nurglitch


Don't stop licking your brush, but maybe consider licking it less.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 01:58:06


Post by: MajorTom11


Nurglitch wrote:
Don't stop licking your brush, but maybe consider licking it less.


I'll take it!


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 01:59:40


Post by: meatybtz


Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).


I will take it a step further. Depending on the settlement (out of court, mediation, or just lawyer on lawyer action) the actual admission of guilt may just not be there.. even further more than a few companies will decide it is better to settle than risk a costly court battle. Those almost always contain the most restrictive disclosure clauses. Kind of like the ones the US Senate required harassment victims getting the payout to sign.

Generally speaking most developed countries require disclosure of medically dangerous issues with any given product as well as requiring a recall of all effected product. If there are in fact medical records that are unequivocalable proof, the laws of any developed nation will require action to be taken, NDA or no NDA. If there is a risk to public health.. it MUST be disclosed, recalled, and disposed of. Now we all know nothing is perfect.. but barring the actual evidence we cannot make an informed decision. That folks is what it boils down to, informed decisions.
That's why the bagging on the OP. It's not that he isn't right. It is that we are properly skeptical and require more data to make informed choices.

The other option is to lose your mind at all kinds of click-bate style reporting that is common in our world which increases the level of needed skepticism in order to filter out the reality from the noise.

I personally believe it is possible. Frankly the list of things that cause cancer is.. starting to look like everything in existence.

As for my laughing about it.. look buco. I live my life having to watch for deadly cancer that my genes make me vulnerable to. My entire adult life has involved carving off pieces of me and having them tested. If anyone is on the up and up about the horrors of cancer.. it's me. Watched others in my family become disfigured and have their lives almost taken by it.

I am intimately aware of the ticking clock of my life and the inevitability of my own demise.

But, without enough information to make an informed decision.. licking a clean brush is not something I will view as even remotely dangerous and I am not going to tell or support fear mongering.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 02:23:13


Post by: posermcbogus


 MajorTom11 wrote:
If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof.

Without proof, I think it was pretty bold of you to start a thread with the premise of causing a potentially terminal disease common enough that most people here will have known at least one person it has killed. That's a pretty emotive argument to put forward with literally no proof, and undermines more or less everything you were trying to say. Your only reason for 'I can't say why' is fear of people 'bashing' a corporation which apparently knowingly produces products carcinogenic enough that they have been proven the cause of the aforementioned disease in someone. Your logic is pretty holey, and your claims are increasingly spurious. These are some very, very extreme absolutes you are mucking about with. You could've made a burner account and posted more info with it, or you could've just made a thread about how you think people ought not to lick their brushes. I think you're outright lying, and there is no proof.

Also, for all the people going off like "Uuuh, Picasso never licked his brushes ever no one other than mini painters ever ever ever licks their brushes"... like... Courbet used to use bits of the road to mix up his paints, and other barmy stuff like painting with a knife - and he was classically trained. Proper painters and artists use a massive array of techniques to create texture and apply paint, and the very claim that mini painters are the only group to have done this in the same thread that has repeatedly invoked the radium girls is so absurd. The radium girls weren't licking their brushes for fun. They did it because it gives a sharp, easy to work tip. Big canvas painters probably rarely lick their brushes because you don't often need that level of minute motor control for finer detail at that scale, but like, miniature portaiture? Detailing on tins of biscuits and whatever? I think there's a whole lot of bottom-talk coming out here.

I also think your comments about bugs and beaver anuses are pretty juvenile. I live in Asia, and I've eaten fried bugs (almost indistinguishable from chips in taste, 10/10 would munch maggots again), and think one of the joys of life in Japan is going to a cheap BBQ restaurant and eating the cheapo weird offcuts like cow colon with your friends and a few cold ones. I don't get why the western eurosphere and north america are so dogmatic about "the approved food animals, and the parts of them you are knowingly allowed to eat (in sausage we trust)" when to meet the demands of western markets and appetites they're pumped full of liquid solutions to bump up the weight and price, their cost to you, the consumer is directly proportional to how little or how much suffering you feel it was okay for them to have been subjected to before they were killed broadly for your pleasure, and come factory farmed from some patch of devastated land and in the end aren't even that flavorsome? Plus god knows what else. what is and isn't food is pretty arbitrary as long as 1. it's actually nutritious 2. it doesn't taste awful.

Yeah, it's good logic to be sceptical about corporations, and the amount of information they disclose to you about what they are selling you. Some paints contain high levels of dangerous stuff. GW, a company I trust a fair amount, advertise their paints as non-toxic, as do a number of other water-soluble acrylic manufacturers, all of whom routinely sell their products to children. This alone probably does not 100% beyond a doubt make them safe, but considering how little paint is on my brush after I clean it, then put it in my mouth, with the objective of coating it in saliva, and making a point - notably, not sucking, eating or ingesting anything, as others have suggested (lol @ people pushing brush-handing - how is that any safer, and how on earth do you not get paint all over your equipment/minis?). I probably do get some trace amounts in my mouth, but I really, really doubt in any quantity significant enough to not be processed out before anything particularly harmful is filtered out before toxcicty builds up to anything near a harmful level.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 02:34:51


Post by: Orlanth


Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?

It's not a case of 'dont eat paint' but these products are considered safe to sell to children. If any particular brand is not safe we should know some specifics so we can remove them from any paint set shared with minors.
GW are usually very good about checking the safety of their product, and have changed formula several times, but there might well be issues with older product lines. If its earlier formula it might behoove us to identify and separate out unsafe product lines.

It is likely more practical to isolate potentially harmful paint lines than get people to change habits, this is why they make non-toxic paints to begin with.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 02:38:14


Post by: MajorTom11


@meat - First of all, let me say I am sorry you have to live under that cloud and that your family has suffered. The nature of what you describe is tough as helI. One of my best friends has Multiple Myeloma, and despite making it so far past the usual expectancy (it was 3 years when he was diagnosed, now it's around 5.5, but he has been with it for 20 years now, I don't believe in spirituality very much but I'd call that a damn miracle) thanks to some newer meds. But he still wakes up every day wondering if it's going to be the day it comes back. Wish you the best with that kind of burden, 100% sincere bud.

No real way to segway out of that without sounding like it is dismissive, but I mean it -

'Bagging on the OP' (me) is absolutely called for. I have said it many times now man, you guys act like I'm fighting back on that, I'm not. I didn't offer what I myself would demand. I fully admit it. But if the choice is say nothing with what I heard, knowing I didn't hear about it when it happened, and say something, hope to open a few eyes to look harder at their supplies and eat the gak... I will eat the gak.

But 'losing your mind to all the click-bait' is not the only other alternative to believing me at nothing but my word. There is lots and lots of room between those two poles to ask a few questions and inform yourself about things without either full hog believing everything I say nor completely ignoring it. It can't hurt to know more about the stuff you love right?

You are not the first to say a settlement doesn't necessarily mean guilt. True. Thing is, it absolutely doesn't mean not guilty either. Settlements aren't always/only to avoid trials just because they may be pricier to the defendant. Sometimes it is equally as beneficial to the plaintiff, esp if time may be an issue. Just sayin, if there was a settlement, it doesn't mean anything either way as to being an indicator of actual guilt necessarily. There are lawyers here who I am sure can correct me if I'm wrong, you may be one of em for all I know lol!

A thoroughly cleaned brush is absolutely of course the least risky of an already fairly low risk scenario. Esp if it is not 'cleaned' in a cup of 3 day old water that has turned a very dark color lol. Fear Mongering is a very strong word to use, cautioning is more appropriate if I may be so bold. I am not encouraging terror, or fear, merely caution and knowledge. (Yes I know, I am withholding knowledge so the irony is not lost on me lol, but there has been plenty of other good stuff to absorb in this thread) Nobody, especially not me, has said 'instant death will be yours if a molecule of paint touches your lips'. So let's try to stay in the pipe here for the scale of what has and hasn't been said, fair?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 02:52:59


Post by: posermcbogus


Was it actually a settlement, though, or do you still just want to protect this company from bashing like you originally said?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 03:18:10


Post by: MajorTom11


 posermcbogus wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof.

Without proof, I think it was pretty bold of you to start a thread with the premise of causing a potentially terminal disease common enough that most people here will have known at least one person it has killed. That's a pretty emotive argument to put forward with literally no proof, and undermines more or less everything you were trying to say. Your only reason for 'I can't say why' is fear of people 'bashing' a corporation which apparently knowingly produces products carcinogenic enough that they have been proven the cause of the aforementioned disease in someone. Your logic is pretty holey, and your claims are increasingly spurious. These are some very, very extreme absolutes you are mucking about with. You could've made a burner account and posted more info with it, or you could've just made a thread about how you think people ought not to lick their brushes. I think you're outright lying, and there is no proof.

Also, for all the people going off like "Uuuh, Picasso never licked his brushes ever no one other than mini painters ever ever ever licks their brushes"... like... Courbet used to use bits of the road to mix up his paints, and other barmy stuff like painting with a knife - and he was classically trained. Proper painters and artists use a massive array of techniques to create texture and apply paint, and the very claim that mini painters are the only group to have done this in the same thread that has repeatedly invoked the radium girls is so absurd. The radium girls weren't licking their brushes for fun. They did it because it gives a sharp, easy to work tip. Big canvas painters probably rarely lick their brushes because you don't often need that level of minute motor control for finer detail at that scale, but like, miniature portaiture? Detailing on tins of biscuits and whatever? I think there's a whole lot of bottom-talk coming out here.

I also think your comments about bugs and beaver anuses are pretty juvenile. I live in Asia, and I've eaten fried bugs (almost indistinguishable from chips in taste, 10/10 would munch maggots again), and think one of the joys of life in Japan is going to a cheap BBQ restaurant and eating the cheapo weird offcuts like cow colon with your friends and a few cold ones. I don't get why the western eurosphere and north america are so dogmatic about "the approved food animals, and the parts of them you are knowingly allowed to eat (in sausage we trust)" when to meet the demands of western markets and appetites they're pumped full of liquid solutions to bump up the weight and price, their cost to you, the consumer is directly proportional to how little or how much suffering you feel it was okay for them to have been subjected to before they were killed broadly for your pleasure, and come factory farmed from some patch of devastated land and in the end aren't even that flavorsome? Plus god knows what else. what is and isn't food is pretty arbitrary as long as 1. it's actually nutritious 2. it doesn't taste awful.

Yeah, it's good logic to be sceptical about corporations, and the amount of information they disclose to you about what they are selling you. Some paints contain high levels of dangerous stuff. GW, a company I trust a fair amount, advertise their paints as non-toxic, as do a number of other water-soluble acrylic manufacturers, all of whom routinely sell their products to children. This alone probably does not 100% beyond a doubt make them safe, but considering how little paint is on my brush after I clean it, then put it in my mouth, with the objective of coating it in saliva, and making a point - notably, not sucking, eating or ingesting anything, as others have suggested (lol @ people pushing brush-handing - how is that any safer, and how on earth do you not get paint all over your equipment/minis?). I probably do get some trace amounts in my mouth, but I really, really doubt in any quantity significant enough to not be processed out before anything particularly harmful is filtered out before toxcicty builds up to anything near a harmful level.


You need to continue to read the thread bud and the OP. I said a few people got cancer. 10,000's to 100,000's used that paint. I didn't think the way I phrased it people would take it that I meant the danger was huge and imminent and we would all start dropping like flies one by one. I realize now some people have taken it that way, but it was not my intention. There is a risk present specifically with older paints from that line. But generally, this thread (and the bulk of the OP) was that people had no real idea what was in their supplies, and certainly not all of them are marked non-toxic, but most of us just take for granted they are perfectly non-toxic without even looking. It's not the case. This is the point. If you think otherwise, that this is a giant 'we're all gonna get cancer!' thread, you would be incorrect.

I am a classically trained artist. I finished my degree before realizing I needed to get a real job and got another degree lol... We were actively taught to avoid getting stuff in our mouths. All kinds of stuff is no bueno, lots of inks, a certain spread of paints (cadmium being first among them) etc etc. Dusts of all kinds, fumes of all kinds, chemicals and hardcore acids for printing and photography. We needed to educate ourselves on all the media we were dealing with to know how to handle it properly. A lot of it was no problem and totally safe, but a lot of it wasn't. I have painted with knives, all kinds of techniques. Kind of the point of mixed media. But you respect your tools and your media. Because there are plenty of stories of people making mistakes, or not realizing what they were dealing with and paying the price. Just in school that I saw, acid burns, fire, fumes knocking someone out, reactions, allergies, more than one teacher down in the metal and wood shops missing a finger or two. So yeah forgive me, but my fine arts education did not encourage ignorance of the materials, or taking things for granted, quite the opposite.

I am sorry you found my comments on beaver anal glands juvenile. I still would like to avoid eating beaver anal glands or cow urine. You can do as you wish, but so will I. And that response was intentionally ridiculous, as it was responding to an argument I considered to be equally ridiculous. Was trying to make a point. PS I have had fried crickets, chocolate ants and mealworms. Does that satisfy? Honestly though, calling me out for not wanting to eat beaver ass or any other kind of ass meat is so completely off topic frankly you could check yourself a little there, I'm not going to apologize for my 'Western Culture Foods'. (Spent two weeks in Japan a couple of years back, and probably the best experience of my life. Love your culture and your foods were amazing, but I have very simple rules for food - nothing that can see me, taste me, think about me, no sexy bits and no anus. Rest is fair game.)

As for NEEDING to do it to get a fine point. Sorry, I don't think anyone ever accused me of being a lousy painter. I don't do it. I know plenty of the absolute top tier pros, the guys with shelf on shelf of Golden Demons and Crystal brushes, and most of them stopped or never did, getting a perfect point just rolling on the back of their hands, or just on the tissue they use to dry the brush after rinsing. Anyone who says it's the only way to get a good tip is wrong. It's just A way.

To your final paragraph, pretty much completely agree, and GW is probably the most trustworthy of them all from due to its size, global nature and positioning in the market as 'child' goods. Also agree people who don't paint extremely regularly and only put brushes in their mouths when they are cleaned off are in a good spot. But I have been in classes, taught classes, and seen people with paint streaks on their lips, for years. Don't assume other people are as diligent about it as you guys are, some people really go to town. Those guys are the ones I am more concerned about, not 'cleaned brush pointers'. Though I still would advise avoiding it.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
 posermcbogus wrote:
Was it actually a settlement, though, or do you still just want to protect this company from bashing like you originally said?


I can't say anything about it, I'm sorry. That was just addressing the hypothetical that has been mentioned multiple times about what a settlement means, when it doesn't mean anything really besides both parties agreed to end things sooner to their assumed benefit in some way shape or form.

I don't want to protect the company. I didn't stop them being named. I want to keep the focus on my point, that most of us, the vast majority, have no idea what is in the paints exactly. Nor do most of us diligently check every label. And that people in our hobby somewhat uniquely, esp the older ones, are so solely acrylic based we don't even know what questions to ask in this new era of all kinds of media being brought in by many. Oils, lacquer paints, fine arts professional grade acrylic tubes and AirBrush being different ballgames than good ol non-toxic citadels. My point is that we all need to be a bit more cautious about things. Not terrified. Not living in fear. Just not blindly assuming it's all yummy and nutritious either.

Focusing on the company, and what happened years ago, detracts from the general awareness that is agnostic to any particular brand. That is the main reason I wanted to avoid it, because otherwise, this has been out there for quite a while. But how many of us knew it before hand? Not many it seems. Which is the other thing that prompted me to bring it back up.

(Ps - I've built a couple of Gunpla recently, and was getting interested in some of the more amazing candy finishes I saw on youtube and searching imagery. Holy crap the metals... insanity. Gunpla doesn't get painted very often for those who don't know, it's really more of a builder hobby in general. But the ones who do in their top tier are insane. Completely different than wargaming minis though, more like a car, or a guitar. They really don't obsess over tiny details and hand paint gradients everywhere usually, not like us anyways. It's really more about getting an insane showroom car finish a lot of the time, rely on the model detail to add the nuance. Though military style weathering is there too from time to time. Anyways I digress, most of the Gunpla paint lines/companies that are 'hot', esp for metallics are Lacquer based. Lacquer is WAY more problematic and harmful than acrylic. You are heavily recommended to wear a mask, ventilate the area, sometimes even where a suit depending on how much spraying you are doing. But I saw a couple of wargames guys getting started and just assuming they could treat it the same as GW paints in the AB, knowing only they needed thinner. Because they were never really told to worry about anything before. It wasn't part of the equation for them. Meanwhile it is so common in Gundam AB that even those who use tamiya acrylics still know to ask and encourage each other often to wear masks. Here not so much, because many of us think everything is safe defacto.)


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 03:38:42


Post by: Peregrine


 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 03:48:52


Post by: insaniak


 Peregrine wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)

I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.





PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 03:52:34


Post by: MajorTom11


TLDR Peregrine is one of most moderated people on this entire board for obvious reasons.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 04:05:50


Post by: Orlanth


 insaniak wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)

I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.


Thank you Peregrine. No matter what some think about raising controversy on this issue we should take a responsible attitude and disclose any safety concerns. Now armed with a 'suggestion' that Vallejo paints may be responsible I did a quick search and found this:

https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/28534-toxicity-of-vallejo-paints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/comments/9vx7q0/psa_recent_vallejo_model_color_paint_is/

....and did a search on GW paints, GW themselves list them as non-toxic and have found no evidence to the contrary. Frankly this didn't surprise me, I will not shy from bashing Geedubs when warranted, but also credit where credit is due. The company has always made product quality its watchword, and have an exemplary manufacturing safety record. GW were early adaptors of materials changes, being amongst others the first major manufacturer to stop using lead based metals, and also abandoning molten metal casting in favour of hot metal pressing, which releases far fewer volatiles. There are downsides to that, GW metal miniatures were not fully molten when cast, hence why the metal crumbles like metallic flapjacks when cut - and a metallurgist I encountered expressed strong concerns over product longevity. But it is a much safer and more healthy production process which is an acceptable counterpoint.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 04:08:01


Post by: MajorTom11


That is fantastic info Orlanth thank you ^^
PS - GW has the best reputation to my knowledge and the most financial and regulatory obligations to be non-toxic of all the companies due to their size and marketing as a children's product. Of all of them I would consider GW the most safe for sure.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 04:23:24


Post by: Peregrine


 MajorTom11 wrote:
TLDR Peregrine is one of most moderated people on this entire board for obvious reasons.



I may be moderated but I'm not the one failing in my moral obligation to disclose important safety information out of fear of having a "bash fest". I'm pretty content with our respective roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...


Lying for attention is obnoxious but doesn't hurt anyone. Concealing safety information does, and is a far worse offense. So yes, lying is the charitable interpretation.

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.

Concealing safety information to protect friends is supposed to be worthy of respect?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 04:37:32


Post by: MajorTom11


You are moderated for your god-complex delusions that you always have complete moral authority in every interaction you have. That and your general toxic attitude.

Pretending like the information hasn't been disclosed repeatedly (no less two posts above this one) serves to allow you to troll a former moderator. I get it. But it's kinda sad you are still getting your kicks this way.

Do try and keep up though.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 05:10:34


Post by: ingtaer


Can you both please both stop this back and forth, tit for tat exchange and remember rules 1 and 2. They are not optional.
Thanks,
ingtaer.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 05:13:41


Post by: MajorTom11


It would be my absolute pleasure to get back on topic and redirect everyone back up to Orlanth's post ^^^


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 05:32:37


Post by: posermcbogus


So it was Vallejo all along, and the information has been public knowledge all along? Is this the paint, and the company you were referring to all along, yet unable to disclose?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 05:32:42


Post by: ingtaer


That reddit post brings up an interesting point about airbrushing as whilst I am sure everyone wears their PPE whilst using an airbrush I do wonder if the various safety regulations/warnings take them into account. Anyone know?


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 06:23:16


Post by: Just Tony


 posermcbogus wrote:
So it was Vallejo all along, and the information has been public knowledge all along? Is this the paint, and the company you were referring to all along, yet unable to disclose?


Not only that, but this is information that has been out for quite some time.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 06:31:59


Post by: posermcbogus


How very worth the cloak and dagger intrigue.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 07:25:15


Post by: MajorTom11


Well, I said it was available to find online easily on the first page while making it clear it couldn't come from me, whether I wanted to or not. You could have just, y'know, looked.

Let me ask 2 things here for everyone -
1.) Does it bother you that you didn't know about it?
2.) Are you surprised that you didn't hear about it?

If the answer is yes to either, that is why this thread exists. What happened there is an object lesson about why it is worth being careful at all times, to whatever degree you are comfortable with. And more importantly very illustrative of the point I have been trying to make all along: We almost always don't know what is in the paint. Be it heavy metals, beaver anal juice, poo, crushed flower petals, dragon scabs, lemonade or a powdered lock of Scarlett Johansson's hair, you almost always don't know.

Some of you have called it 'fearmongering' to say that. I kinda feel like being in opposite is 'OKmongering', saying it's all fine when you yourself have little to no idea what is in the product you are saying is fine.

We don't need to be terrified of paint, but imho we do need to stop acting like it's all the same and none of it can be bad for you as a 100% certainty. It shouldn't be 'fearful' to take some basic steps to educate yourself about the stuff in front of you. This goes up exponentially when talking about lacquers, enamels, oils and other pro fine arts supplies outside of the acrylic mini paint realm.

Discount everything I said if you want, but at least pay attention to the other data right in front of you multiple times now. Those links Orlanth put up pretty much say what you should need to hear. And they have absolutely nothing to do with me.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 09:01:10


Post by: posermcbogus


"I was only pretending to be fear mongering to make you all afraid!"

Didn't someone bring up Vallejo super early on? You could have chosen then to drop the pretences, and murky threat that any number of us could unknowingly be possessing carcinogenic material rather than beat on about sources you were unable to cite for reasons you weren't allowed to provide.

This was trolling and I think the mods ought to treat it as such.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 09:17:12


Post by: fresus


There was some talk about legal actions/toxicity held up in court.
I know that in some countries (US mostly), you can sue for basically no reason and try to hold other people accountable for your own stupidity, but I can't see how any of the stuff we're talking about could hold up in court.
Paint is not meant to be ingested, so you can't sue a paint company if you get sick for using their products wrongfully. The same way you can't sue a bleach company if you drink a bottle of the stuff and end up in the hospital. You could, however, sue them if you got sick from normal use, which would include having a little bit on your skin, or breathing a small amount of airbrushed paint.

It was mentioned that paint has been established as the main cause of a few people's cancers (even if that statement in itself doesn't mean much). I very much doubt that there was a scientific study on the subject just for research reasons (and if there was, it would be published in peer-reviewed article). It could, however, be a study done to support an action in court, which would mean that the people had good reasons to believe they could win the case. Which brings me to my first point. If someone indeed got cancer mostly because of brush licking, I really don't see how they could hope to win a trial, as that's not how you're supposed to use the paint.
Maybe you could try and say it's marketed for children (which usually means vastly different safety requirements) or that there was inadequate warnings, but it still seems pretty unlikely.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 09:35:49


Post by: insaniak


 posermcbogus wrote:
"I was only pretending to be fear mongering to make you all afraid!"

Didn't someone bring up Vallejo super early on? You could have chosen then to drop the pretences, and murky threat that any number of us could unknowingly be possessing carcinogenic material rather than beat on about sources you were unable to cite for reasons you weren't allowed to provide.

This was trolling and I think the mods ought to treat it as such.

The mods aren't treating it as trolling because they understand that the purpose of the thread wasn't to point fingers at a specific company, but to create an awareness that maybe sticking paint in your mouth isn't a good idea, even if you believe it's safe.


Clearly that message has been misconstrued, but there was no hidden agenda here.



PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 09:47:55


Post by: Ouze


Maybe it's time to lock this up? MT has provided as much information as he has said he is going to, the gaps have been filled in by other parties, and the PSA is available.

The only things left to do in this thread are cast aspersions on MT's motivations and sources, which might be fun and even warranted... but not very productive. He's been clear from the very beginning he feels a legal or professional duty to not fill in those gaps, and from a moral perspective, Orlanth has already done the what and Polonius has done the probably-why. There is nothing more to be done here but the namecalling and accusations.


Once we hit the point we were discussing eating beaver buttholes, I think this thread peaked.


PSA - Warning - Do NOT put brushes in your mouth to sharpen the point anymore @ 2019/07/18 10:11:08


Post by: RiTides


 Ouze wrote:
Maybe it's time to lock this up?

I think so...

For anyone who hasn't participated in the thread, here are a few excellent posts for reference.

Polonius' deep dive into Cadmium safety:
Spoiler:
 Polonius wrote:
Okay, well, this thread has spurred me to go on a dive into Cadmium safety. Here's what I found out:

Cadmium is toxic, with various ailments arising acutely after exposure. However, this is usually in an industrial capacity, and inhalation is far more dangerous than ingestion. The NIH does say that cadmium can cause lung cancer, which is a double whammy because smoking also increases your cadmium intake. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/cadmium

As for cadmium pigments, which are compounds with cadmium in them, the dry pigments are generally seen as toxic and dangerous, again especially when inhaled. Outside of a few fringe sources, nobody seems terribly concerned with the actual paint, since the emulsifier would really limit absorption. It's worth noting that the EU, despite having a hair trigger for banning even borderline toxic substances, still allows cadmium pigments.

For a fun read, this artist talks about the time his cat walked through cadmium paint, and began licking it up, all with no ill effects. https://www.danschultzfineart.com/is-cadmium-paint-toxic/

I found some sites very eager to link cadmium to cancer, but one was literally called "Cancer wisdom," and no kidding, talking about how a person had a filling improperly removed, and then got cancer on a finger the next day. https://www.cancerwisdom.net/heavy-metal-toxicity-and-cancer/

Okay, so looking at the actual warning here, it's easy to say, "well, better safe than sorry" and accept it at face value. And, sure, there's probably no real loss in utility to stop shaping brushes by mouth.

However, I think that the OP is either drastically overstating the certainty of his claim that hobby paint gave people cancer, or overstating his duty to avoid revealing more information. The reason I think that is because based on what I could find about cadmium, it's toxicity, it's pigments, and it's use, a claim that a hobby paint caused cancer requires a few leaps. First, it requires the leap that a compound which is generally seen as safe when not inhaled caused cancer through ingestion. Second, it requires medical certainty that this fairly uncommon metal caused the cancer, instead of any other factors. Third, it requires pigments, which are generally not absorbed when emulsified, to be absorbed at a higher rate than normal.

All of this seems unlikely, especially given the rationale provided by the OP in a follow up:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So, peer review is a term of art use in academics, which is unlikely here. Now, assuming the OP meant "verified by second opinion," that's fine, but what really worries me is that final clause. "proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law." That... does not mean much. That means that they had enough medical testimony to convince a finder of fact (jury or judge) that the paint, more likely than not, caused the cancer. Keep in mind that neither the judge nor jury knows anything about heavy metal toxicity or cancer.

Even if a hobby paint with cadmium caused cancer in a few people, that doesn't mean it will be generally dangerous. And based on what I've read, the biggest danger wouldn't be brush licking, which is essentially ingesting highly diluted pigment, but airbrushing, which would involve inhalation, the more dangerous route of absorption.

As for the "ethical quandary," I dunno. Usually people cannot reveal specifics due to ethical rules (medical or legal privacy), a signed NDA, or because they are a journalist who needs to protect a source. But he's not making a general warning. He's pretty clearly saying "Vallejo paints gave people cancer." And then saying, "but I can't tell you how I know that." Given what I've noted above, the only real way to know this would be a fairly extensive scientific study, if the OP had access to peoples medical files, or active litigation. The problem is, if he was involved in treatment or litigation, he shouldn't be saying anything. That's not an ethical conundrum, that's just the rules.

Based on the line about proving it in a court of law, I'm going to take a guess that the OP knows one or more people who have had cancer, and sued a paint company over it, and received a settlement with a non disclosure agreement. Which means that he wouldn't be able to say why he knows without risking those settlements. If this is the case, than there's all more reason to doubt the certainty of the claims. Company's settle cases all the time, especially if the settlement would be lower than the cost of litigation.

I know this was a lot, and I certainly don't think the OP is being malicious, but I think that the level of concern is both misguided and overstated.

Orlanth's manufacturer comparison thoughts:
Spoiler:
 Orlanth wrote:
No matter what some think about raising controversy on this issue we should take a responsible attitude and disclose any safety concerns. Now armed with a 'suggestion' that Vallejo paints may be responsible I did a quick search and found this:

https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/28534-toxicity-of-vallejo-paints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/comments/9vx7q0/psa_recent_vallejo_model_color_paint_is/

....and did a search on GW paints, GW themselves list them as non-toxic and have found no evidence to the contrary. Frankly this didn't surprise me, I will not shy from bashing Geedubs when warranted, but also credit where credit is due. The company has always made product quality its watchword, and have an exemplary manufacturing safety record. GW were early adaptors of materials changes, being amongst others the first major manufacturer to stop using lead based metals, and also abandoning molten metal casting in favour of hot metal pressing, which releases far fewer volatiles. There are downsides to that, GW metal miniatures were not fully molten when cast, hence why the metal crumbles like metallic flapjacks when cut - and a metallurgist I encountered expressed strong concerns over product longevity. But it is a much safer and more healthy production process which is an acceptable counterpoint.

As I posted earlier, I had never thought about any of this before, and actually have Vallejo paints from before the change. So, this was an extremely useful thread for me personally! However, I think we'd be better off rebooting it in the future if folks want to continue the discussion, particularly with a focus on anything that might not have been identified yet. As Tom noted, many hobbyists are branching out into different types of paints, with applications where the manufacturer would never consider that someone might put it in their mouth. It's a habit I, personally, will be kicking...

With that, I'll lock this up for now. If I missed any good research / summary links, please PM me!