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Made in fi
Elusive Dryad





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm actually surprised at the number of people who don't lick their brushes. I'm pretty sure everyone I know does it. Albeit that's usually to put a point back on the brush after rinsing it, but still. I'd always thought it was more common than not.

Aye, it seems (and I too thought that it was) one of the most logical and common ways to keep the point on a brush. Don't think I know anybody who puts the brush in their mouth before cleaning it in the water though, what would be the point of that? Suppose you could get inventive and use your tongue as a wet palette of sorts.. wait a second, that sounds like a plan...
   
Made in ca
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Rzhev, Kronstaat IV

You're*

University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.

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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances






"Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium" - Cadmium is most often found in and used as a yellow pigment, Cobalt in blue pigments. Chromium in greens. Whats hard is that pure pigments these are very distinctive colors and while you can get close with mixes of other pigments, there are simply a long list of colors that no one makes anymore because those specific shades required specific toxic pigments.

Another element getting more and more attention due to its growing widespread use and toxicity when it builds up in your system is Titanium, which is the most common white pigment. Its being found as the source of cancers now, despite its extreme inertness. This one is probably going to be one of the most problematic pigments to try and do without because every other white is either 10 times the cost, or is known to be toxic like lead.

Maybe miniature paints companies should market dental dams.
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You're*

University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.


If that is addressing the post above yours, then you have a problem as their usage of "your" is grammatically correct. If not, you may want to add the quote you're correcting.



Christ on a pogo stick, this thread is becoming more fun by the second.

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 Stormatious wrote:
I use the top of my left hand to do this. By the end of each session my hand looks pretty ridiculous.
Same here.

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If he means this sentence:
 LordofHats wrote:

No. I can spot the law school equivalent of "I took psychology 101 and now I understand everything" just fine. Walking through it again doesn't change how badly your applying a basic principle


then should be "you're". As in "...how badly you are applying …". "your" could work there, but in that case the sentence is missing a clause.

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Model-Color-2018-1.pdf
https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Game-Color-2018-1.pdf

Those are the MSDS for Vallejo MOdel Color and Game Color (you can find them, and MSDS for the rest of their ranges at https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/safety/

I see nothing there to indicate that they're toxic or carcinogenic, but I'm not an industrial chemist or health professional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 16:22:50


 
   
Made in us
Revenant Pirate Crew






Yeah, this is about as credible as vaccines cause autism. It’s true, I read a paper on it

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AndrewGPaul wrote:


https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Model-Color-2018-1.pdf
https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SDS-Game-Color-2018-1.pdf

Those are the MSDS for Vallejo MOdel Color and Game Color (you can find them, and MSDS for the rest of their ranges at https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/safety/

I see nothing there to indicate that they're toxic or carcinogenic, but I'm not an industrial chemist or health professional.


Thats about as plain jane as an MSDS gets.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

University of Leicester, School of Law. 'Class' of 2012. Not strictly relevant to discussion of a principle of logic, but hey-ho.


I'm seriously wondering if you can see the funny in this. I'm guessing not but I feel like explaining it would become too mean spirited so... Maybe just leave it to the conclusion with the least assumptions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 aka_mythos wrote:
Maybe miniature paints companies should market dental dams.


That's a weird image. I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth, but it's still a really weird image.

I can still see GW doing it though. They'd charge like $30 for it too, and I'd just laugh and go get one for $5 at some hobby store.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 16:47:20


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Lex parsimoniae says that the answer that requires fewest assumptions is likely correct.

While I don't at all disagree with your opinions on the flimsiness of jury-trials in the civil system, the answer that requires fewest assumptions is that the OP is making this up.


That's a reach, because assuming the OP heard a story of a person getting cancer and suing a paint company is really just as likely as a troll, especially since the post doesn't really come off as a troll attempt.



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Made in fi
Elusive Dryad





meatybtz wrote:Here is a hint too for the uninformed. We all have cancer. Every single one of us. My daughter does, so does my son at 1 year old. What matters is if our body is cleaning it up or failing to do so. When we "get cancer" it means our body has failed to deal with it. But otherwise, every day our body's natural systems clean up the mess that DNA Replication causes.

Yeah.. no. If it's regulated cell growth, that's just staying alive. Only if it's out of control, it's cancer, by definition.

LordofHats wrote:There was recall on hobby and craft paint just a few years ago that was infested with bacteria. If you don't know what's in it, and you really can't know what's in it, why would you put it in your mouth?

Oh my word, not bacteria! Newsflash, everything around you is covered in bacteria, including you, inside and out. Estimates vary, but "you" consist of about 10 to 100 times as many bacterial as actual human cells. The fact that you're still alive probably means you either got very lucky, or most substances and micro-organisms around you are not killing you very effectively. Do you know what's in the air you breathe? The food you eat? You typically expect them to be safe. Even tested to be safe to a reasonable extent. Well, turns out the same is true for our paints (which at a guess are far less likely to contain problematic multidrug-resistant bacteria than e.g. meat).

 LordofHats wrote:
I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth [...]

Then you'll die. I mean, you can put tubes in the right places and get nutrients and oxygen that way, but without all that fuss, you will want to have chemicals in your mouth every now and then.
What you don't want are toxins.
Which many (most? all?) widely used acrylic paints are not and do not contain.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium. Others (some bought around the same time, but who knows how long they've been on the shelves) simply conform to this ASTM D-4236, also mentioned on Citadel pots and Army Painter bottles. Missing from Coat d'Arms, but both they and Army Painter simply pride themselves on being non-toxic. Citadel actually having the least information available of any of them.
Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA



Want to eat some E. Coli out of the petri dish just because "there's bacteria everywhere?" Hell, maybe they only recalled the product out of fear and the bacteria was perfectly harmless. People eat yogurt all the time and it's filled with harmless/beneficial bacteria.

It's still a stupid idea to put stuff in your body that doesn't normally go into your body. There's being healthily skeptical, and then there's being mindlessly obtuse. Favor the former.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium.


And I'll bet money that Vallejo doesn't have a clue what's actually in their paints, or the components they use to make them. They don't test every pot, or every source they get their materials from. No one does, and that's part of the problem with modern supply chains. They take the providers of their materials at their word, and those providers probably took their providers at their word so on a so forth through the as many as three dozen companies that might be involved in the manufacture and procurement of what goes into commercial products. All it takes is one person/company in that supply chain to lie, be reckless, or even just make a perfectly harmless mistake, and you've got lead paint on children's toys in the local Wal-Mart.

We all have to eat food to live. We do not have to lick our brushes, so go ahead and lick them if you want. I'm not your mother, but this conflation game is asinine.

Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.


Eh. You'll probably be fine. Until your not. Because someone mixed up the paints for some third world country that are filled with mercury and anti-freeze with the ones that are compliant with US regulations. And then you're not fine, and this silly little game of "but everything is dangerous/causes cancer" starts looking really childish.

Also I feel like there's a funny web comic waiting to be drawn in this quote XD

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 20:51:31


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

 LordofHats wrote:
No one does, and that's part of the problem with modern supply chains. They take the providers of their materials at their word, and those providers probably took their providers at their word so on a so forth through the as many as three dozen companies that might be involved in the manufacture and procurement of what goes into commercial products. All it takes is one person/company in that supply chain to lie, be reckless, or even just make a perfectly harmless mistake, and you've got lead paint on children's toys in the local Wal-Mart.


You mean like how Tescos (might have been other supermarkets hit as well) were putting horse into minced beef packets for several months a few years back?!

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USA

 Overread wrote:
You mean like how Tescos (might have been other supermarkets hit as well) were putting horse into minced beef packets for several months a few years back?!


Yeah, and like that time cyanide somehow found its way into a batch of insulin, or how there's already enough heavy metals poisoning the water table.

And yet, we'll blindly trust not food to be exactly what it says on the label... Although is horse even bad for you? I wouldn't think so, but still. I don't want to eat any ponies. That's nasty. I'd rather eat culturally acceptable food animals, like chicken, or long pork

   
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






I used to work in an art supply store and I have seen people TASTE cadmium rich watercolor paints to sample them, as well as lick brushes they haven't bought, along with a number of other high-health-risk behaviors.

There are some crazy-toxic art supplies out there, and some crazy people using them.

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USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
I used to work in an art supply store and I have seen people TASTE cadmium rich watercolor paints to sample them, as well as lick brushes they haven't bought, along with a number of other high-health-risk behaviors.

There are some crazy-toxic art supplies out there, and some crazy people using them.


Oh, if we're going outside of just what I see people use for wargaming models;

I've seen people wash out oil paints with turpentine and then lick the brush. It's turpentine why does anyone need to be told not to stick it in their mouths? It's got a OSHA label on it XD

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 22:42:35


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Unlike heavy metals, I don't think turpentine builds up in the tissues, and the LD50 is probably higher than what you'll get from licking the brush.
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 LordofHats wrote:

It's not news that paint contains cadmium, among other things. I have no idea why OP feels the need to raise the alarm about it now, but speculating as to their motive is all nothing but assumptions and I don't really see how it matters.


Sharing a legitimate study is understandable. Saying there's proof and then suddenly going silent when asked for it is absurdly and unnecessarily suspicious behaviour, and makes me immediately think of this:




Are you sure you want to be defending someone who does that sort of thing?

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






If MajorTom11 had started this thread with "according to this article, these paints contain potentially toxic levels of cadmium", then we could have looked at the article, and potentially researched the reliability of the study and those who carried it out, and judged accordingly.

However, instead, MajorTom11 essentially asked us to take them at their word. Since they're an anonymous source with no reputation, none of us (unless some of you know who they are in real life) can make any judgement on the reliability of the information in the OP, and thus it's meaningless.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


It has recently come to my attention that a well known brand of mini acrylic paint, I am not going to say which, has given several people cancer. This is due to the trace presence of certain minerals or chemicals such as Cadmium, Cobalt and Chromium in their line. Any of these, but particularly Cadmium, are considered toxic even when ingested at very small amounts.




As in, the definitive, sole cause of Cancer? Yeah? From a reputable medical source, peer reviewed, and definitely not The Man In The Pub?


I mean, with this standard nothing causes cancer except swimming in nuclear waste water.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

Unlike heavy metals, I don't think turpentine builds up in the tissues, and the LD50 is probably higher than what you'll get from licking the brush.


No it doesn't, but Turpentine is highly reactive. As much as a tablespoon ingested has immediate health effects. People get killed by the stuff pursuing cheap highs all the time (turpentine will kill you faster than the cocaine it was mixed with).

 Elemental wrote:
Are you sure you want to be defending someone who does that sort of thing?


I literally said I don't think the OP's motives or reasons matter. That's not a defense. It's stating they're irrelevant. The only defense there is calling bad logic bad logic, to which the OP is still irrelevant.

They can be a bald face liar, and it doesn't change that putting chemicals in your mouth is dancing in the danger zone. All this "OP must be lying" and "it's not dangerous" and "why are you defending the OP" talk is missing the forest for the trees. You shouldn't need a reliable source to tell you sticking chemicals in your mouth maybe isn't the safest thing to do. Seriously, did the OP just shoot your dogs or something? You're all making this bizarrely personal for something that should be known and done even without a PSA. Recalls on paint for toxic stuff finding its way in are yearly. They happen all the time. Maybe it's not hobby paints now, but whenever it is who knows when maybe never, it's going to be kind of childish that anyone was this defensive about the possibility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 23:40:54


   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

Lol, this has been pretty amusing boys not gonna lie... I perfectly understand why some won't take what I said at face value and want outside sourcing to validate. 'Trump tactic' comment and all the very reasonable requests for further facts stung, not gonna lie. However, I still won't provide any more detail, for 'reasons', the kind that journalists have not to disclose sources I suppose being the correct analogue. Accept or don't accept, but asking more won't change it. I am sorry I can't give more, for what it is worth.

As to the idea I have something to gain from this? LOL busted! I wanted to troll.... so badly... and I needed a target. I cast about looking for a target that would really blow up with the right pressure point. I realized that some people are avid and militant paint-eaters in the miniature hobby, and set about my scheme... being a moderator here for 5 years, 10000+ posts, many minis painted... all to build up a persona for this moment. Now that my decade long scheme is finally in play, I can sit back and watch the money roll into my bank account when I release my 'mouth free tip sharpener' under yet another name, leveraging the massive new market I have created with my Fake News Machiavellian (™) scheme. PROFIT FROM FEAR

Wheels within wheels people, wheels within wheels.

If that sounds more 'credible' to you than I simply came across some concerning facts and was worried enough to share it... well some of you have already eaten too much paint is all I can say


   
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Armpit of NY

That's an incredibly condescending and juvenile sounding rationale for your doom-laden IP, which is quite possibly why people aren't taking your vague, unsupported proclamations of the paint apocalypse seriously...
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Thing is we get a lot of "cancer scare" messages in the media. I'm sure if one were to hit up some of the more sensationalist major media like the Daily Mail or The Sun chances are you could find loads of "common thing causes cancer" reports.

Without a source for the actual information itself, as opposed to interpretation, its impossible to really make your voice heard above that background noise that decades of media has already generated before you.

Also your sources are not hidden, they are perfectly open and accessible sources of information which is, I'm assuming, how you came across them. Essentially anyone else could find this information though the internet is huge and not everything is online (most is) so might be that it takes a long while before someone does track it down. So at best you're not really protecting, just hiding for a short duration.

Far better to just post up the full details for review. It's the simplest and most effective and powerful means to carrying your message to others. I would argue if you want to make a meaningful effort in passing this information on then pass it on in full as you've found it.

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[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

So disregard. Lol, guys, no one is holding a gun to your head. Some people have listened, I am pleased for that. Some people already know what I am referring to. If you don't want to listen you can go on with your life without ever seeing this thread again. It's really that simple lol.

I have acknowledged the nature of my message is less than ideal for some. I acknowledge that there is reason to be skeptical particular for those of an empirical and objective bent. I have also said, being aware of all this, I simply did what I felt I could with the circumstances I have. Take it or leave it.

With that this will be my final comment on the matter, anything further is circular. Both sides have been presented, I'll leave to each individual to decide whether they want to lend any credence, or, better yet, simply inspire a few google searches so people can deduce the facts for themselves. Good enough for me. If someone else wants to name the name, they can go right ahead too if that is the way the discussion goes, I'm not in charge here obviously, only of myself.

Have a good one boys -

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Just Tony wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
I completely understand your EXTREMELY valid line of questioning, I am usually the guy asking for exactly those things (seriously not being sarcastic at all). I am not naming the company because I don't want this discussion to turn into a bash fest or get detracted from the main point of the warning. But yes, reputable medical source, peer reviewed and proven with sufficient rigour and cause to stand in a court of law.


So what you are saying is that you have solid evidence that one of the companies in our hobby is producing dangerous materials with insufficient warning of their contents and you're more concerned with preventing a "bash fest" than getting this vital safety information out so that people can avoid the hazard? By withholding this information if anyone here is hurt by these paints their blood is on your hands.


Agreed.


I also agree. The saying is "extreme claims require extreme evidence", but I think this requires at least SOME evidence.

You're saying that there is peer reviewed information out there, which means it's already in the public domain.

I don't think you're trolling or lying because you are a well established, respected figure in this community. If nearly anyone else had posted this I would have just snickered, moved on to a different thread, and forgotten I ever read this one. But, you're not someone else, so I believe you are reporting what you believe to be accurate.

But I don't think it's reasonable to throw something out there, say you have clear and unambiguous, publicly available information, of imminent import to the community, but you can't show us so we can know more and maybe we can do some google searches or something.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Some people already know what I am referring to


Why is this a big secret only people in the cool guy club can know? Do the non-cool people not have a right to awareness of undisclosed toxicity in their products?

 MajorTom11 wrote:
If someone else wants to name the name, they can go right ahead too if that is the way the discussion goes


Can one of the cool guys in the inner circle please tell me, a reforming brush licker, which one of my products is an unlabeled toxin that is provably linked to cancer if ingested? I mean, it seems like Vallejo from searches, right? Vallejo yellows probably? I'm guessing, I have no idea. But want to know!






This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/13 10:29:50


 
   
Made in us
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 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
meatybtz wrote:Here is a hint too for the uninformed. We all have cancer. Every single one of us. My daughter does, so does my son at 1 year old. What matters is if our body is cleaning it up or failing to do so. When we "get cancer" it means our body has failed to deal with it. But otherwise, every day our body's natural systems clean up the mess that DNA Replication causes.

Yeah.. no. If it's regulated cell growth, that's just staying alive. Only if it's out of control, it's cancer, by definition.

Spoiler:
LordofHats wrote:There was recall on hobby and craft paint just a few years ago that was infested with bacteria. If you don't know what's in it, and you really can't know what's in it, why would you put it in your mouth?

Oh my word, not bacteria! Newsflash, everything around you is covered in bacteria, including you, inside and out. Estimates vary, but "you" consist of about 10 to 100 times as many bacterial as actual human cells. The fact that you're still alive probably means you either got very lucky, or most substances and micro-organisms around you are not killing you very effectively. Do you know what's in the air you breathe? The food you eat? You typically expect them to be safe. Even tested to be safe to a reasonable extent. Well, turns out the same is true for our paints (which at a guess are far less likely to contain problematic multidrug-resistant bacteria than e.g. meat).

 LordofHats wrote:
I mean, it's kind of easily resolved by just not putting chemicals in your mouth [...]

Then you'll die. I mean, you can put tubes in the right places and get nutrients and oxygen that way, but without all that fuss, you will want to have chemicals in your mouth every now and then.
What you don't want are toxins.
Which many (most? all?) widely used acrylic paints are not and do not contain.

Interestingly, some of the Vallejo bottles on my desk specifically mention not containing a list of chemicals including the aforementioned cobalt, cadmium and chromium. Others (some bought around the same time, but who knows how long they've been on the shelves) simply conform to this ASTM D-4236, also mentioned on Citadel pots and Army Painter bottles. Missing from Coat d'Arms, but both they and Army Painter simply pride themselves on being non-toxic. Citadel actually having the least information available of any of them.
Now I do wonder how much paint you could drink before your stomach will at least get upset. Ingesting something called Typhus Corrosion does sound like rather a bad plan.


Thus we all have cancer, sorry, but we do. Now a benign cancer isn't anything to worry about and most are. Malignant is when things get interesting. Never the less the human body is capable, and does, deal with malignant cancers every day. When those mechanisms fail, that's when people start to pay attention. It is why when dealing with cancers the newer treatment directions include trying to activate your body's own defense.
Genetics can suck, I've spent my adult life keeping track of mine and having bits carved out and tested. So far all good for 41 years. Hope it stays that way.

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
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Beyond the Beltway

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Well, I'm not gonna do it. Gave my reasons, and I understand your reservations, but I guess if you feel it's scaremongering go ahead and eat your paint and we let natural selection decide lol
You can send 'em a PM with the link. You can send it to me too. S'il vous plait.

Best way to point a brush is to tap the ferrule on the edge of the water cup. Like you're drumming. A quick flick of the wrist while holding the end of the handle. It's also a good way to find out if a brush no longer points as it should. Practice it a few times. Don't do it with a dripping wet brush though. Blot the brush on a towel or something first.

I did a lot of oil painting back in the day, a lot. The generalized warning about don't put any of this stuff in your mouth stuck. And the Radium Girls etc.

Cadmium makes for the best, the absolute best, yellows though. You'll have to pry the bottle of my liquitex soft body cadmium yellow light from my cold dead hands.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/13 05:01:55


 
   
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





CO

MajorTom, please understand you've decided to communicate the following: "I have a credible source giving compelling evidence that licking your paint brushes will literally kill you. Instead of actually attempting to give that compelling evidence for an actually convincing post, I'm going to tell you that you should just trust me. I'm not actually going to use the information I have to try to persuade you, thus instead leaving you to continue on licking as you always have." That is indeed trolling at best, or encouraging people to ignore you and thus die at worst. If it's the latter, then there are no positive words to describe your actions in this situation.

4500
 
   
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Nasty Nob





SoCal

There's some real backwards logic.

   
 
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