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Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

Sign me up for your 'Make Castoreum Great Again' campaign then bud

Did you know some Yellows used to be made with the urine of mango fed cows from india? Yum yum it won't kill you so bottom's up! I won't scare people by asking them to consider not drinking the cow urine.

So ridiculous...




   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 MajorTom11 wrote:
Sign me up for your 'Make Castoreum Great Again' campaign then bud

Did you know some Yellows used to be made with the urine of mango fed cows from india? Yum yum it won't kill you so bottom's up! I won't scare people by asking them to consider not drinking the cow urine.

So ridiculous...





Well, boiled animal (and possibly human) urine was used as an antiseptic. I wouldn't recommend it, but it does appear to have medical value as a topical antiseptic. Honey doe as well. There are a lot of unpleasant things used in the past that while they have value in medicine.. yeah they at least worked.

*licks brush in your direction while having a lewed expression that would make slaneesh blush*

I don't recommend people LICK paint filled brushes but there is nothing wrong with pointing a brush that is clean.. and no your skin does not work as well unless you have some oily skin. Also saliva works as a "slow dry" for acrylics.. lol.

Point of fact, breathing causes cancer.

While we have been able to extend the human life span we have not been able to extend the useful lifespan of humans in any significance. We've only manged to extend the period of decrepitude. Yay modern medicine. Those who are hale and hearty in the twilight years also tend to be ones whose genetics are the cause for such, not lifestyle. Most Centenarians have what most of us would call "risky" habits, such as eating lots of bacon, grease, etc.. or smoking.

Genetics has a greater impact than lifestyle, though lifestyle does impact lifespan it does so more for those of us w/o the genetic gift of long useful life.

Still this whole threat is somewhat ridiculous. Not ingesting large quantities of chemicals is generally a good thing.


That all being said...

YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. EVERYONE ON THE FORUM WILL DIE... LIKELY IN AN UNPLEASANT MANNER.

Oh well...

Anyways getting your knickers in a twist of a small cancer chance on a forum where likely cardiovascular health is more likely to be the killer is.. somewhat funny.

One more edit. Heavy metals are most dangerous in organic molecular form.. or dust, nano-particle. In general the most dangerous thing we use in our hobby is the dry pigments who even if inert can cause lung damage or lung cancer as a result of the particle being unable to be removed from the lungs. When they say don't breath the dry pigments folks.. they mean it. By that same measure the nano-dust particles created by passing vehicles over a hard road surface is about as bad and carcinogenic.. I am pretty sure that most of you live by roads.... so just.. umm.. hold your breath.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 16:36:11


Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

 meatybtz wrote:

Anyways getting your knickers in a twist of a small cancer chance on a forum where likely cardiovascular health is more likely to be the killer is.. somewhat funny.


Yeah. Unless you are a guy with cancer from mini paints. Or more than one. Then all of a sudden laughing about it to their faces and saying it's nothing to worry about loses a bit of steam. Is it pearl clutching while you are having chemo?

Utterly ridiculous guys. If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof. But the rest is substantiated, there was a risk, that risk is still on many shelves both at home and at stores. We can debate severity, but not the existence of it. Also remember the changed their formulas real quick, because it was a problem. And if you are entertaining that I am not lying about people getting sick even for a second, remember what you are laughing about.

This topic can be discussed without going to these ridiculous binary ends. Like there's a group of smokers laughing that it hasn't killed them yet therefore it's fine and potentially even a good idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 17:04:33


   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

I do enjoy the effects of Nicotine, and knowing engage in the risk-increasing behaviour because I enjoy the effect.

I knowingly participate in risky behaviour, because I enjoy it. That may not be a “good enough” reasons for others, but it’s good enough for me.

PS: Careful Tom, the veneer is wearing off your polite discussion. We’ve both had a respectful discussion, I’d hate to see that go downhill.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 17:30:09


 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

I smoked too, for more than a decade. I still miss it tbh. But I never told anyone it was fine because I hadn't gotten sick yet. Which is the logic a few seem to be employing. I'm not telling anyone they have to take my advice. I am merely asking they consider the decision, because a lot of people in this hobby don't know much about paints beyond their use, and a lot of people assume it's all crayola grade kid-safe.

If you take it all in and decide you don't consider it worth changing your behaviour over, good on you. It is absolutely and completely up to you, and I make no bones about it. Just like smoking, it's your choice, and admittedly a lot less risky just in case anyone thinks I am drawing a 1:1 risk comparison as opposed to a behaviour related to it. My advice is NOT to do it. But of course it is not up to me to make decisions for you. Just trying to spur consideration.

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

aldo1234 wrote:

In my opinion the bizarness isn't the actual idea of putting paint in your mouth its the fact someone has "peer reviewed evidence that can stand up in court" without releasing it. Everything can kill you in certain doses, its this sort of scaremongering that made Anti-vax such a big thing. People hear about heavy metals in things and instantly freak out, and it should be banned and restricted and heaven forbid putting it in your mouth, that's instant death to you and your whole genetic family. When in the case such as this its in such a minute dose that it would never cause any harm UNLESS there is some sort of peer reviewed data which can stand in the court of law that someone has which has definitive proof which is then being withheld, for reasons???

And, again, nobody claimed it was 'instant death'. The hyperbole doesn't actually serve any useful purpose.

Something to consider - documents presented in a court of law are quite often not freely shareable on the internet, particularly when a settlement is involved, since an NDA is quite commonly a part of any settlement with a corporation...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:

Then maybe if you're going to scaremonger about additives you shouldn't pick something that's actually food safe to clutch your pearls about.

The fact that an additive is used in food doesn't actually mean that the same, food-safe version of that additive is used in paint.

Anything used in food or medicine tends to have much more stringent controls on it than ingredients for things that aren't designed to go into your body.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 19:56:09


   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

Instant death is hyperbole, but so is putting "anything that doesn't belong" in your body to be unimaginably stupid.

There has not been anything presented, regardless of reason, to believe that paint without a warning on it is "toxic" or even capable of long term harm. Common sense would dictate not to take a risk without benefit. The brush-licking afficionados believe the benefit of shaping the brush that way is worth the perceived lack of risk.

In much the same way that breathing dust, smog, exhaust, welding fumes, or any other manner of crap into your lungs is a bad idea, it's usually better than not breathing.

And one tiny huff of exhaust isn't going to kill you, or harm you in any real way, and it might be convenient to cross the shop rather than walk around outside. So the benefit is convenience for a non-zero risk of inhaling exhaust and experiencing problems related to that.

So the people that are "Pro Licking" are really just "Not-Anti-Licking" on the basis that there is little to no perceived threat.

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 20:14:25


 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 21:30:56



 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

If I had them, I probably would continue. I’ve been a Citadel Schmuck my whole life, so it’s a moot point for me.

While unscientific, I just can’t imagine that the minuscule amount of paint I ingest after rinsing my brush is harmful. I don’t imagine I’m going to get super-powers from ingesting it, but I also doubt it’s doing me any harm, and I, personally, would not change my habit.

I’m a risk taker by nature. I have to have a good reason *not* to do something, and the reason *not* to do something has to have sufficient consequence to overcome my curiosity / desire to try / continue doing an activity.

I certainly bite off more than I can chew sometimes, but that is an acceptable risk for me. I’m not saying that way of living is for everyone, and not in a “brag-y” kind of way. Well, maybe a little. Mostly it’s a case of live and let live. I’m very comfortable with uncertainty whereas some people are very much not.

I would have been one of the doubters when things like cigarettes and asbestos first started having claims leveled at them. But once proven, I change patterns. If a report I could see linked an ingredient from paint to being toxic / fatal in levels at which I would consume it (like, say, fentanyl) then I would stop and thank my lucky stars I made it.

But... I’m doubting that’s going to happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 21:49:04


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).

   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles.


Well....yes? I mean, I thought it was implied by the subject area and venue of discussion that when I said 'will you continue licking older Vallejo paints?', I don't literally mean 'dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles'.

I apologise. I should have clarified that I meant 'Will you continue sucking minor quantities of paint residue off your brush from a specific brand/batch of paints which appear to be under suspicion of having above-average ratios of toxic chemicals which could potentially be a health hazard if imbibed on a regular basis over the lengthy period of time such as hobbyists of our ilk tend to paint for'.

But you know, I thought it would be shorter to say what I did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 23:32:30



 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

I’ll stand by my earlier yes answer. I knew where you were coming from.
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).



That's very true. If I was able to provide more concrete evidence on the exact nature of the problem and the precise quantity and exposure windows they need to be in order to be toxic vs likely harmless that would be ideal. For the 20th time, I deeply apologize for that entirely legitimate shortcoming and sincerely wish I could do more. That being said, information on Cadmium and other common pigments, even including to their form suspended in acrylic medium /emulsion IS available to take in. Polonius found some of it and tagged it. The only thing you need to take my word on it for is that people actually got sick with direct link to hobby paint. Other than that, it's all out there.

It bears repeating, this branch of the hobby is really the only place I have seen people above the age of 5 (not being pejorative, I mean it literally) sticking the drawing/marking end of media into their mouths. Military hobbyist guys don't do it, Gunpla guys don't do it, fine arts canvas and multi-media artists CERTAINLY don't do it, dating back 100's of years. (SO many toxic paints, lead white was apparently absolutely amazing looking, best white ever, no joke, but... lead). This is the only art where people do this with any regularity with materials not explicitly, entirely designed for children. And so, so many of us use supplies from other hobbies now, and that is what makes the habit entirely too risky in my opinion. This isn't citadel only land anymore. Many of you are trying oil washes, or using enamels for pin washing. Or using lacquer paint in your AB. These things are vastly more dangerous than citadel, and many people are carrying over their citadel/wargaming habits into other areas like it's all the same. Many of us are using AB's too and not worrying about a think, and again, that is just plain not safe with many products making their way into our hobby. Lacquer paint is NOT cool to be breathing unfiltered on the reg.

There is a huge difference between 'I haven't seen enough from MajorTom11 to reverse my habit, so I'm going to continue' and 'Hey guys! Paint hasn't killed me yet so there is nothing to know... don't bother to ever question or learn about any product we have because it's all good'.

   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

Don't stop licking your brush, but maybe consider licking it less.
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

Nurglitch wrote:
Don't stop licking your brush, but maybe consider licking it less.


I'll take it!

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Mario wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I couldn't care less if someone else licks their brush. I've mentioned earlier that my objection to the "Anti-Licking" being presented here is that it's part of my overall objection to people not minding their own business and having people worry about unimportant things while more pressing / more important things are happening. Worry overload is a thing, and presentations like this add to it. I continue to believe it's a best intentions scenario.

Aye. Question is though: will you continue licking older Vallejo paints? We've reached a point now after all, where it's not so much 'anti-licking' as it is 'You might not want to lick this specific brand within this specific time range'.
Isn't the question: Will you continue licking brushes that have been rinsed and that might contain a few molecules of that paint (and even fewer molecules of the actually dangerous component) from your rinsing pot. It's not like people are generally dunking brushes into pots of paint to slurp that stuff off the bristles. People lick a brush after it's clean but before they soak up paint into the bristles. How bad is that really, compared to everyday dangers like eating candy, drinking soda, or being overweight?

I mean, sure it is a risk factor but we have been given no comparison where on a scale of everyday dangers it lies. Is the risk negligible, is it really dangerous, how much does it vary depending on how much you paint per week? We have no data for people to evaluate for themselves if that's a risk they are willing to take when it comes to painting miniatures. We have hints that there might have been a lawsuit and a settlement that made data hard to come by. That still leaves us in the dark except one person's post. While I agree with "heavy/toxic metals are not good for you", without data it's like saying "smoking is bad for you". True but people still do it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said: I stopped licking brushes because I didn't want my paint/water/medium mixture to be contaminated with my saliva (amylase and whatever else might be in there). I's rather persnickety about that stuff and also use two different pots of water to rinse my brushes (one for regular paint, one for metallics).


I will take it a step further. Depending on the settlement (out of court, mediation, or just lawyer on lawyer action) the actual admission of guilt may just not be there.. even further more than a few companies will decide it is better to settle than risk a costly court battle. Those almost always contain the most restrictive disclosure clauses. Kind of like the ones the US Senate required harassment victims getting the payout to sign.

Generally speaking most developed countries require disclosure of medically dangerous issues with any given product as well as requiring a recall of all effected product. If there are in fact medical records that are unequivocalable proof, the laws of any developed nation will require action to be taken, NDA or no NDA. If there is a risk to public health.. it MUST be disclosed, recalled, and disposed of. Now we all know nothing is perfect.. but barring the actual evidence we cannot make an informed decision. That folks is what it boils down to, informed decisions.
That's why the bagging on the OP. It's not that he isn't right. It is that we are properly skeptical and require more data to make informed choices.

The other option is to lose your mind at all kinds of click-bate style reporting that is common in our world which increases the level of needed skepticism in order to filter out the reality from the noise.

I personally believe it is possible. Frankly the list of things that cause cancer is.. starting to look like everything in existence.

As for my laughing about it.. look buco. I live my life having to watch for deadly cancer that my genes make me vulnerable to. My entire adult life has involved carving off pieces of me and having them tested. If anyone is on the up and up about the horrors of cancer.. it's me. Watched others in my family become disfigured and have their lives almost taken by it.

I am intimately aware of the ticking clock of my life and the inevitability of my own demise.

But, without enough information to make an informed decision.. licking a clean brush is not something I will view as even remotely dangerous and I am not going to tell or support fear mongering.

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
Made in jp
Boosting Black Templar Biker





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

 MajorTom11 wrote:
If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof.

Without proof, I think it was pretty bold of you to start a thread with the premise of causing a potentially terminal disease common enough that most people here will have known at least one person it has killed. That's a pretty emotive argument to put forward with literally no proof, and undermines more or less everything you were trying to say. Your only reason for 'I can't say why' is fear of people 'bashing' a corporation which apparently knowingly produces products carcinogenic enough that they have been proven the cause of the aforementioned disease in someone. Your logic is pretty holey, and your claims are increasingly spurious. These are some very, very extreme absolutes you are mucking about with. You could've made a burner account and posted more info with it, or you could've just made a thread about how you think people ought not to lick their brushes. I think you're outright lying, and there is no proof.

Also, for all the people going off like "Uuuh, Picasso never licked his brushes ever no one other than mini painters ever ever ever licks their brushes"... like... Courbet used to use bits of the road to mix up his paints, and other barmy stuff like painting with a knife - and he was classically trained. Proper painters and artists use a massive array of techniques to create texture and apply paint, and the very claim that mini painters are the only group to have done this in the same thread that has repeatedly invoked the radium girls is so absurd. The radium girls weren't licking their brushes for fun. They did it because it gives a sharp, easy to work tip. Big canvas painters probably rarely lick their brushes because you don't often need that level of minute motor control for finer detail at that scale, but like, miniature portaiture? Detailing on tins of biscuits and whatever? I think there's a whole lot of bottom-talk coming out here.

I also think your comments about bugs and beaver anuses are pretty juvenile. I live in Asia, and I've eaten fried bugs (almost indistinguishable from chips in taste, 10/10 would munch maggots again), and think one of the joys of life in Japan is going to a cheap BBQ restaurant and eating the cheapo weird offcuts like cow colon with your friends and a few cold ones. I don't get why the western eurosphere and north america are so dogmatic about "the approved food animals, and the parts of them you are knowingly allowed to eat (in sausage we trust)" when to meet the demands of western markets and appetites they're pumped full of liquid solutions to bump up the weight and price, their cost to you, the consumer is directly proportional to how little or how much suffering you feel it was okay for them to have been subjected to before they were killed broadly for your pleasure, and come factory farmed from some patch of devastated land and in the end aren't even that flavorsome? Plus god knows what else. what is and isn't food is pretty arbitrary as long as 1. it's actually nutritious 2. it doesn't taste awful.

Yeah, it's good logic to be sceptical about corporations, and the amount of information they disclose to you about what they are selling you. Some paints contain high levels of dangerous stuff. GW, a company I trust a fair amount, advertise their paints as non-toxic, as do a number of other water-soluble acrylic manufacturers, all of whom routinely sell their products to children. This alone probably does not 100% beyond a doubt make them safe, but considering how little paint is on my brush after I clean it, then put it in my mouth, with the objective of coating it in saliva, and making a point - notably, not sucking, eating or ingesting anything, as others have suggested (lol @ people pushing brush-handing - how is that any safer, and how on earth do you not get paint all over your equipment/minis?). I probably do get some trace amounts in my mouth, but I really, really doubt in any quantity significant enough to not be processed out before anything particularly harmful is filtered out before toxcicty builds up to anything near a harmful level.

   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?

It's not a case of 'dont eat paint' but these products are considered safe to sell to children. If any particular brand is not safe we should know some specifics so we can remove them from any paint set shared with minors.
GW are usually very good about checking the safety of their product, and have changed formula several times, but there might well be issues with older product lines. If its earlier formula it might behoove us to identify and separate out unsafe product lines.

It is likely more practical to isolate potentially harmful paint lines than get people to change habits, this is why they make non-toxic paints to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 02:35:05


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

@meat - First of all, let me say I am sorry you have to live under that cloud and that your family has suffered. The nature of what you describe is tough as helI. One of my best friends has Multiple Myeloma, and despite making it so far past the usual expectancy (it was 3 years when he was diagnosed, now it's around 5.5, but he has been with it for 20 years now, I don't believe in spirituality very much but I'd call that a damn miracle) thanks to some newer meds. But he still wakes up every day wondering if it's going to be the day it comes back. Wish you the best with that kind of burden, 100% sincere bud.

No real way to segway out of that without sounding like it is dismissive, but I mean it -

'Bagging on the OP' (me) is absolutely called for. I have said it many times now man, you guys act like I'm fighting back on that, I'm not. I didn't offer what I myself would demand. I fully admit it. But if the choice is say nothing with what I heard, knowing I didn't hear about it when it happened, and say something, hope to open a few eyes to look harder at their supplies and eat the gak... I will eat the gak.

But 'losing your mind to all the click-bait' is not the only other alternative to believing me at nothing but my word. There is lots and lots of room between those two poles to ask a few questions and inform yourself about things without either full hog believing everything I say nor completely ignoring it. It can't hurt to know more about the stuff you love right?

You are not the first to say a settlement doesn't necessarily mean guilt. True. Thing is, it absolutely doesn't mean not guilty either. Settlements aren't always/only to avoid trials just because they may be pricier to the defendant. Sometimes it is equally as beneficial to the plaintiff, esp if time may be an issue. Just sayin, if there was a settlement, it doesn't mean anything either way as to being an indicator of actual guilt necessarily. There are lawyers here who I am sure can correct me if I'm wrong, you may be one of em for all I know lol!

A thoroughly cleaned brush is absolutely of course the least risky of an already fairly low risk scenario. Esp if it is not 'cleaned' in a cup of 3 day old water that has turned a very dark color lol. Fear Mongering is a very strong word to use, cautioning is more appropriate if I may be so bold. I am not encouraging terror, or fear, merely caution and knowledge. (Yes I know, I am withholding knowledge so the irony is not lost on me lol, but there has been plenty of other good stuff to absorb in this thread) Nobody, especially not me, has said 'instant death will be yours if a molecule of paint touches your lips'. So let's try to stay in the pipe here for the scale of what has and hasn't been said, fair?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 02:40:05


   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Was it actually a settlement, though, or do you still just want to protect this company from bashing like you originally said?

   
Made in ca
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Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

 posermcbogus wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:
If you don't believe me that it happened, people getting sick, I understand why, I can't offer proof.

Without proof, I think it was pretty bold of you to start a thread with the premise of causing a potentially terminal disease common enough that most people here will have known at least one person it has killed. That's a pretty emotive argument to put forward with literally no proof, and undermines more or less everything you were trying to say. Your only reason for 'I can't say why' is fear of people 'bashing' a corporation which apparently knowingly produces products carcinogenic enough that they have been proven the cause of the aforementioned disease in someone. Your logic is pretty holey, and your claims are increasingly spurious. These are some very, very extreme absolutes you are mucking about with. You could've made a burner account and posted more info with it, or you could've just made a thread about how you think people ought not to lick their brushes. I think you're outright lying, and there is no proof.

Also, for all the people going off like "Uuuh, Picasso never licked his brushes ever no one other than mini painters ever ever ever licks their brushes"... like... Courbet used to use bits of the road to mix up his paints, and other barmy stuff like painting with a knife - and he was classically trained. Proper painters and artists use a massive array of techniques to create texture and apply paint, and the very claim that mini painters are the only group to have done this in the same thread that has repeatedly invoked the radium girls is so absurd. The radium girls weren't licking their brushes for fun. They did it because it gives a sharp, easy to work tip. Big canvas painters probably rarely lick their brushes because you don't often need that level of minute motor control for finer detail at that scale, but like, miniature portaiture? Detailing on tins of biscuits and whatever? I think there's a whole lot of bottom-talk coming out here.

I also think your comments about bugs and beaver anuses are pretty juvenile. I live in Asia, and I've eaten fried bugs (almost indistinguishable from chips in taste, 10/10 would munch maggots again), and think one of the joys of life in Japan is going to a cheap BBQ restaurant and eating the cheapo weird offcuts like cow colon with your friends and a few cold ones. I don't get why the western eurosphere and north america are so dogmatic about "the approved food animals, and the parts of them you are knowingly allowed to eat (in sausage we trust)" when to meet the demands of western markets and appetites they're pumped full of liquid solutions to bump up the weight and price, their cost to you, the consumer is directly proportional to how little or how much suffering you feel it was okay for them to have been subjected to before they were killed broadly for your pleasure, and come factory farmed from some patch of devastated land and in the end aren't even that flavorsome? Plus god knows what else. what is and isn't food is pretty arbitrary as long as 1. it's actually nutritious 2. it doesn't taste awful.

Yeah, it's good logic to be sceptical about corporations, and the amount of information they disclose to you about what they are selling you. Some paints contain high levels of dangerous stuff. GW, a company I trust a fair amount, advertise their paints as non-toxic, as do a number of other water-soluble acrylic manufacturers, all of whom routinely sell their products to children. This alone probably does not 100% beyond a doubt make them safe, but considering how little paint is on my brush after I clean it, then put it in my mouth, with the objective of coating it in saliva, and making a point - notably, not sucking, eating or ingesting anything, as others have suggested (lol @ people pushing brush-handing - how is that any safer, and how on earth do you not get paint all over your equipment/minis?). I probably do get some trace amounts in my mouth, but I really, really doubt in any quantity significant enough to not be processed out before anything particularly harmful is filtered out before toxcicty builds up to anything near a harmful level.


You need to continue to read the thread bud and the OP. I said a few people got cancer. 10,000's to 100,000's used that paint. I didn't think the way I phrased it people would take it that I meant the danger was huge and imminent and we would all start dropping like flies one by one. I realize now some people have taken it that way, but it was not my intention. There is a risk present specifically with older paints from that line. But generally, this thread (and the bulk of the OP) was that people had no real idea what was in their supplies, and certainly not all of them are marked non-toxic, but most of us just take for granted they are perfectly non-toxic without even looking. It's not the case. This is the point. If you think otherwise, that this is a giant 'we're all gonna get cancer!' thread, you would be incorrect.

I am a classically trained artist. I finished my degree before realizing I needed to get a real job and got another degree lol... We were actively taught to avoid getting stuff in our mouths. All kinds of stuff is no bueno, lots of inks, a certain spread of paints (cadmium being first among them) etc etc. Dusts of all kinds, fumes of all kinds, chemicals and hardcore acids for printing and photography. We needed to educate ourselves on all the media we were dealing with to know how to handle it properly. A lot of it was no problem and totally safe, but a lot of it wasn't. I have painted with knives, all kinds of techniques. Kind of the point of mixed media. But you respect your tools and your media. Because there are plenty of stories of people making mistakes, or not realizing what they were dealing with and paying the price. Just in school that I saw, acid burns, fire, fumes knocking someone out, reactions, allergies, more than one teacher down in the metal and wood shops missing a finger or two. So yeah forgive me, but my fine arts education did not encourage ignorance of the materials, or taking things for granted, quite the opposite.

I am sorry you found my comments on beaver anal glands juvenile. I still would like to avoid eating beaver anal glands or cow urine. You can do as you wish, but so will I. And that response was intentionally ridiculous, as it was responding to an argument I considered to be equally ridiculous. Was trying to make a point. PS I have had fried crickets, chocolate ants and mealworms. Does that satisfy? Honestly though, calling me out for not wanting to eat beaver ass or any other kind of ass meat is so completely off topic frankly you could check yourself a little there, I'm not going to apologize for my 'Western Culture Foods'. (Spent two weeks in Japan a couple of years back, and probably the best experience of my life. Love your culture and your foods were amazing, but I have very simple rules for food - nothing that can see me, taste me, think about me, no sexy bits and no anus. Rest is fair game.)

As for NEEDING to do it to get a fine point. Sorry, I don't think anyone ever accused me of being a lousy painter. I don't do it. I know plenty of the absolute top tier pros, the guys with shelf on shelf of Golden Demons and Crystal brushes, and most of them stopped or never did, getting a perfect point just rolling on the back of their hands, or just on the tissue they use to dry the brush after rinsing. Anyone who says it's the only way to get a good tip is wrong. It's just A way.

To your final paragraph, pretty much completely agree, and GW is probably the most trustworthy of them all from due to its size, global nature and positioning in the market as 'child' goods. Also agree people who don't paint extremely regularly and only put brushes in their mouths when they are cleaned off are in a good spot. But I have been in classes, taught classes, and seen people with paint streaks on their lips, for years. Don't assume other people are as diligent about it as you guys are, some people really go to town. Those guys are the ones I am more concerned about, not 'cleaned brush pointers'. Though I still would advise avoiding it.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
 posermcbogus wrote:
Was it actually a settlement, though, or do you still just want to protect this company from bashing like you originally said?


I can't say anything about it, I'm sorry. That was just addressing the hypothetical that has been mentioned multiple times about what a settlement means, when it doesn't mean anything really besides both parties agreed to end things sooner to their assumed benefit in some way shape or form.

I don't want to protect the company. I didn't stop them being named. I want to keep the focus on my point, that most of us, the vast majority, have no idea what is in the paints exactly. Nor do most of us diligently check every label. And that people in our hobby somewhat uniquely, esp the older ones, are so solely acrylic based we don't even know what questions to ask in this new era of all kinds of media being brought in by many. Oils, lacquer paints, fine arts professional grade acrylic tubes and AirBrush being different ballgames than good ol non-toxic citadels. My point is that we all need to be a bit more cautious about things. Not terrified. Not living in fear. Just not blindly assuming it's all yummy and nutritious either.

Focusing on the company, and what happened years ago, detracts from the general awareness that is agnostic to any particular brand. That is the main reason I wanted to avoid it, because otherwise, this has been out there for quite a while. But how many of us knew it before hand? Not many it seems. Which is the other thing that prompted me to bring it back up.

(Ps - I've built a couple of Gunpla recently, and was getting interested in some of the more amazing candy finishes I saw on youtube and searching imagery. Holy crap the metals... insanity. Gunpla doesn't get painted very often for those who don't know, it's really more of a builder hobby in general. But the ones who do in their top tier are insane. Completely different than wargaming minis though, more like a car, or a guitar. They really don't obsess over tiny details and hand paint gradients everywhere usually, not like us anyways. It's really more about getting an insane showroom car finish a lot of the time, rely on the model detail to add the nuance. Though military style weathering is there too from time to time. Anyways I digress, most of the Gunpla paint lines/companies that are 'hot', esp for metallics are Lacquer based. Lacquer is WAY more problematic and harmful than acrylic. You are heavily recommended to wear a mask, ventilate the area, sometimes even where a suit depending on how much spraying you are doing. But I saw a couple of wargames guys getting started and just assuming they could treat it the same as GW paints in the AB, knowing only they needed thinner. Because they were never really told to worry about anything before. It wasn't part of the equation for them. Meanwhile it is so common in Gundam AB that even those who use tamiya acrylics still know to ask and encourage each other often to wear masks. Here not so much, because many of us think everything is safe defacto.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/18 03:40:48


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)

I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.




   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

TLDR Peregrine is one of most moderated people on this entire board for obvious reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 03:52:46


   
Made in gb
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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 insaniak wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Can I have a TL: DR for the first eight pages overall as in: has the allegedly effected paint ranges been disclosed yet?


TL;DR, OP refuses to post any of their so-called evidence, but people seem to agree that older Vallejo paints are the line in question. OP is probably lying about the cancer though, and posting evasion after evasion in an attempt to avoid admitting it.

(And that's the charitable assumption, that they are merely lying to get attention and not maliciously withholding important safety information.)

I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.


Thank you Peregrine. No matter what some think about raising controversy on this issue we should take a responsible attitude and disclose any safety concerns. Now armed with a 'suggestion' that Vallejo paints may be responsible I did a quick search and found this:

https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/28534-toxicity-of-vallejo-paints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/comments/9vx7q0/psa_recent_vallejo_model_color_paint_is/

....and did a search on GW paints, GW themselves list them as non-toxic and have found no evidence to the contrary. Frankly this didn't surprise me, I will not shy from bashing Geedubs when warranted, but also credit where credit is due. The company has always made product quality its watchword, and have an exemplary manufacturing safety record. GW were early adaptors of materials changes, being amongst others the first major manufacturer to stop using lead based metals, and also abandoning molten metal casting in favour of hot metal pressing, which releases far fewer volatiles. There are downsides to that, GW metal miniatures were not fully molten when cast, hence why the metal crumbles like metallic flapjacks when cut - and a metallurgist I encountered expressed strong concerns over product longevity. But it is a much safer and more healthy production process which is an acceptable counterpoint.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

That is fantastic info Orlanth thank you ^^
PS - GW has the best reputation to my knowledge and the most financial and regulatory obligations to be non-toxic of all the companies due to their size and marketing as a children's product. Of all of them I would consider GW the most safe for sure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/18 04:22:46


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 MajorTom11 wrote:
TLDR Peregrine is one of most moderated people on this entire board for obvious reasons.



I may be moderated but I'm not the one failing in my moral obligation to disclose important safety information out of fear of having a "bash fest". I'm pretty content with our respective roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
I'm not sure what mental gymnastics you need to do in order to think that 'they're probably lying for attention' is a 'charitable assumption'...


Lying for attention is obnoxious but doesn't hurt anyone. Concealing safety information does, and is a far worse offense. So yes, lying is the charitable interpretation.

The charitable assumption would be that Tom is unable to post specific evidence without getting someone in trouble, and so chose to post a less specific message.

Concealing safety information to protect friends is supposed to be worthy of respect?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 04:28:04


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

You are moderated for your god-complex delusions that you always have complete moral authority in every interaction you have. That and your general toxic attitude.

Pretending like the information hasn't been disclosed repeatedly (no less two posts above this one) serves to allow you to troll a former moderator. I get it. But it's kinda sad you are still getting your kicks this way.

Do try and keep up though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 04:38:27


   
Made in nz
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






Can you both please both stop this back and forth, tit for tat exchange and remember rules 1 and 2. They are not optional.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
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Backfire wrote:
Nobody kills his dad and participates in genocide just for cosplay.
 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

It would be my absolute pleasure to get back on topic and redirect everyone back up to Orlanth's post ^^^

   
 
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