Misfittoy wrote: I am new to 40k and was wondering what weapon options people used for their squads.
Mass Storm Bolters, nothing else.
Ehm, what?
Nevermind. Gray hunters do not have access to storm bolters, they are you line troop choice. And you want to keep them as cheap, as possible. According to current edition - naked squad is the best choice, they have 2 attack base and bolter, could add a single plasmagun (better magnetise the hand), could also give an axe to a sarge (magnetise).
No more than 5 guys.
Misfittoy wrote: I am new to 40k and was wondering what weapon options people used for their squads.
Mass Storm Bolters, nothing else.
Ehm, what?
Nevermind. Gray hunters do not have access to storm bolters, they are you line troop choice. And you want to keep them as cheap, as possible. According to current edition - naked squad is the best choice, they have 2 attack base and bolter, could add a single plasmagun (better magnetise the hand), could also give an axe to a sarge (magnetise).
No more than 5 guys.
It depends on how fluffy you and your Meta (local gaming groups) are. A meta that more strongly works off the "troop tax" less fluffy thought process will take as few, with as little upgrading, as necessary. A more fluffy meta might take 10 of them with several bells and whistles like a WG, chainswords, a special weapon, and a Drop Pod or other transport.
Just no.
Taking GH is already handicap to your list, taking 10 man unit is outright shoot in your leg. Taking droppod for them is insane level of absurd.
No, there is no fluff in 8ed, not for marine. Want to play fluffy marines, play with custodes rules.
Silver144 wrote: Just no.
Taking GH is already handicap to your list, taking 10 man unit is outright shoot in your leg. Taking droppod for them is insane level of absurd.
No, there is no fluff in 8ed, not for marine. Want to play fluffy marines, play with custodes rules.
Silver is obviously in a less fluffy meta. I'll repeat, find out what your local meta/groups are like.
I don't know what is more sad, the state of marines or these answers.
Your basic troops in all marine armies aren't going to be great, that said I still like my Grey Hunters. I run mine with plasma guns and the extra ccw so they are real all rounders.
Honestly if you're playing the bleeding edge of competitive warhammer, don't play marines, but if you are playing with friends in an all rounder setting, some bells and whistles are fine.You still can win with marine troops taken as more than just a tax then.
Your suggestion is just generally bad, no matter what the meta is.
It will lead to a sorrowful experience no matter how low the bar in your garage hammer.
Please don't pretend that advice "take 5 man squad" is have anything with competitive meta. It's not even close. Taking 10 man squad in the droppod will leave you with 200+ point unit that utterly useless on table. It's not just weak, it literally incapable of doing any purpose for its point no matter who you opponent is.
So stop giving a bad advice, the peps like you is the ones who breaking the interest in game for the new players, when they bought their first army and finds out its totally unplayable, but the money are already spend.
Silver144 wrote: Your suggestion is just generally bad, no matter what the meta is.
It will lead to a sorrowful experience no matter how low the bar in your garage hummer.
Please don't pretend that advice "take 5 man squad" is have anything with competitive meta. It's not even close. Taking 10 man squad in the droppod will leave you with 200+ point unit that utterly useless on table. It's not just weak, ot literally incapable of doing any purpose for its point no matter who you opponent is.
So stop giving a bad advice, the peps like you is the ones who breaking the interest in game for the new players, when they bought their first army and finds out its totally unplayable, but the money are already spend.
Maybe you live in the nexus of complete sadness but I still can win games with marine troops. The OP didn't ask if Grey Hunters were completely pointless to take, he asked how to equip them, if you can't do anything at all with marines don't put that hang up on everyone else. People can win games with them, not every game is a min max nightmare of only the best army unit selections. I know that is world shattering for some players but it's true.
Why don't you stop giving advice that would suck the passion out of new players and kill any love they might find in it.
Silver144 wrote: Your suggestion is just generally bad, no matter what the meta is.
It will lead to a sorrowful experience no matter how low the bar in your garage hummer.
Please don't pretend that advice "take 5 man squad" is have anything with competitive meta. It's not even close. Taking 10 man squad in the droppod will leave you with 200+ point unit that utterly useless on table. It's not just weak, ot literally incapable of doing any purpose for its point no matter who you opponent is.
So stop giving a bad advice, the peps like you is the ones who breaking the interest in game for the new players, when they bought their first army and finds out its totally unplayable, but the money are already spend.
Maybe you live in the nexus of complete sadness but I still can win games with marine troops. The OP didn't ask if Grey Hunters were completely pointless to take, he asked how to equip them, if you can't do anything at all with marines don't put that hang up on everyone else. People can win games with them, not every game is a min max nightmare of only the best army unit selections. I know that is world shattering for some players but it's true.
Why don't you stop giving advice that would suck the passion out of new players and kill any love they might find in it.
Have I ? Yes, and still won games. Drop pods are beyond bad yes, that isn't a revelation and hasn't been since the edition dropped.
My point is, marines are bad, we all get it, but their troops can still be ok, you can still win games with them. It's ok. Not everyone fights only the top 5% of each armies most effective units every game.
Also I point out, the point of the game is to have fun, and the goal is to win. However, you don't need to only take the best options to win, nor do you need to win every single game. No one is telling a new player any false information just that you can take what you like and maybe, still win sometimes.
I'm sure other marine players out there can win with tac marines, grey hunters, etc. Heck I even know Grey Knight players who can still win, and they are quite bad.
No man, the quote you made was only about the 10 man squad in droppod, do not push the conversation on the abstract side.
If you advise the new player to spend 200+ points on the single troop choice, then I'll repeat my answer for you:
Please, stop giving bad advice for a new players.
Silver144 wrote: No man, the quote you made was only about the 10 man squad in droppod, do not push the conversation on the abstract side.
If you advise the new player to spend 200+ points on the single troop choice, then I'll repeat my answer for you:
Please, stop giving bad advice for a new players.
I'll repeat my answer of, I'll say what I want and you can just pop a big chill pill. No one told him to use a drop pod, my post said I liked to use a plasma gun, or two depending on squad size.
You can disagree with me or anyone else, you can not tell us what to say.
I would advise the new player to have fun with his troops, regardless of those who want to make the game of the most samey experience of carbon copy army list simulator.
Silver144 wrote: No man, the quote you made was only about the 10 man squad in droppod, do not push the conversation on the abstract side.
If you advise the new player to spend 200+ points on the single troop choice, then I'll repeat my answer for you:
Please, stop giving bad advice for a new players.
I'll repeat my answer of, I'll say what I want and you can just pop a big chill pill. No one told him to use a drop pod, my post said I liked to use a plasma gun, or two depending on squad size.
You can disagree with me or anyone else, you can not tell us what to say.
I would advise the new player to have fun with his troops, regardless of those who want to make the game of the most samey experience of carbon copy army list simulator.
Breton suggest a new player to take 10 man squad in droppod.
I answered, that this is a bad advice.
You do quote my answer and disagree with me. So no, leave all abstract bs on the side. The question is 10 man squad in droppod and by disagreement with you arvicing the new player to act as Breton was saying: taking 200+ pts troop choice.
If you just had own opinion, why do you quote my answer then, huh?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But to prevent the same answer "marine could be fun to play" I'll answer it directly.
Yes, they can. Even oldstartes.
"marines are bad, we all get it, but their troops can still be ok, you can still win games with them. "
Yes, you are right. I am painting my gray hunters and will have my fun with them on the table. Want to see the photo of my PFGH sarge I am painting currently?
"Not everyone fights only the top 5% of each armies most effective units every game. "
Yes, you are right. I have a necron bud and solo csm bud, so I have an opponents to play on equal footing with my solo SW.
"Also I point out, the point of the game is to have fun, and the goal is to win. "
Yes, you are right. Some games are just an excuse to hung out with pals snd have nothing with outcome.
"No one is telling a new player any false information just that you can take what you like and maybe, still win sometimes. "
Sorry here, advicing a player to take 200 pts single troop choice is terrible, no matter how low you garage hammer.
Breton suggest a new player to take 10 man squad in droppod.
Actually I said figure out what your local groups/metas are like and provided a range it could run from bare naked minimum troops, to super fluffy book armies with max troops + dedicated transports as seen below:
It depends on how fluffy you and your Meta (local gaming groups) are. A meta that more strongly works off the "troop tax" less fluffy thought process will take as few, with as little upgrading, as necessary. A more fluffy meta might take 10 of them with several bells and whistles like a WG, chainswords, a special weapon, and a Drop Pod or other transport.
I answered, that this is a bad advice.
Yes, you did. After which I pointed out you would appear to be from a more competitive less fluffy meta, and reiterated that a new player trying to fit into a group should probably get the lay of the local land, and not assume everyone plays the same way you do, because trying to push one meta on players from another can make you come off as TFG. Thank you for providing an apt example.
You do quote my answer and disagree with me. So no, leave all abstract bs on the side. The question is 10 man squad in droppod and by disagreement with you arvicing the new player to act as Breton was saying: taking 200+ pts troop choice.
If you just had own opinion, why do you quote my answer then, huh?
Understandably. Instead of acknowledging there are multiple ways of playing the game, and a new player wanting to fit into a new group should figure out what that group is like before deciding on a play/list style, you told him to run straight to the low Comp Score section of army creation without any consideration of what his local group might be. Perhaps his entire area plays 10 man marine troops with drop pods because that's what they've got from their 5E Heyday and haven't gotten around to/can't afford to buy new stuff, just happen to love stories of drop pod assaults, or the guy who sculpted the Drop Pod model itself leads the group. But please, do tell us more about how handicapped someone playing 10 model marine troop squads in drop pods is - in a hypothetical meta where everyone plays 10 model marine troop units in drop pods
Such meta could exist only in your head, or there should be just handful players total, who play marines only. This is not something that should be generally assumed
SW have nothing with competitive playing. Arguing that advice to use 5 man tac squad is "sport advice" means you actually have zero knowledge about the sport, because, you know, there are zero tac in sport lists, not just 5 man squads.
And GH are already garagehammer unit, and advicing new player, that 10 man squad in droppod could work in current edition is straight lie. No it can't, even against your regular buddy with troop choices like orks, tau FW, infantry squad or even other marines with sane squad loadout. It will lead to the frustration and overall bad experience. Just stop this bs.
Silver144 wrote: Such meta could exist only in your head, or there should be just handful players total, who play marines only. This is not something that should be generally assumed
SW have nothing with competitive playing. Arguing that advice to use 5 man tac squad is "sport advice" means you actually have zero knowledge about the sport, because, you know, there are zero tac in sport lists, not just 5 man squads.
And GH are already garagehammer unit, and advicing new player, that 10 man squad in droppod could work in current edition is straight lie. No it can't, even against your regular buddy with troop choices like orks, tau FW, infantry squad or even other marines with sane squad loadout. It will lead to the frustration and overall bad experience. Just stop this bs.
What exactly is "sport advice"? Why is it in quotes? Do you think I gave some sort of "sport advice"? Are you making something up you've claimed I said again? What is your primary language, I'll use Google Translate to explain I'm only "advicing new player" to scout out what the local playstyle is, not taking either bare bones minimums, or maxed options - or even that those are the only two options - but only to follow their lead if he wants to fit in with them for games.
Thats how you respond to my advice to take 5 man squad:
"you told him to run straight to the low Comp Score section of army creation "
So you equated the 5 man squad with competitive approach to the game, while it's not true. If I wanted to give such advice, it could be something like "take them as DW veterans", or at least "take intercessors instead, those at least could survive some low str fire".
While your suggestion to spend 200+ points on single troop choice to a new player is actually harmful, because should he actually listen to you and buy 30 GH and 3 droppods, he could drop the game after he will figure out how unplayable it's on the table.
Silver144 wrote: Just no.
Taking GH is already handicap to your list, taking 10 man unit is outright shoot in your leg. Taking droppod for them is insane level of absurd.
No, there is no fluff in 8ed, not for marine. Want to play fluffy marines, play with custodes rules.
Silver is obviously in a less fluffy meta. I'll repeat, find out what your local meta/groups are like.
He's got a point though, Custodes actually have the statlines to be played like marines are being portrayed in the fluff. Therefore on the tabletop Custodes painted as Ultramarines makes for fluffier Ultramarines than most Ultramarine infantry models themselves.
Edit: to add something on-topic, a couple of max-plasma equipped 5 man GH squads accompanied by a Wolf Lord who outflank together (with the stratagem) make for an effective and even somewhat fluffy glass cannon you can throw at something expensive turn 2.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only way to make them work is the Outflank strat that they have available. Even then, I'd think Blood Claws a better distraction.
Blood Claws don't work with outflank unless you send Ragnar along for the charge reroll, and even then it's only a 50% chance you make it in. I'd rather run Blood Claws like one would run World Eaters. Take 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannon, put a 6 man squad in each one, fully kitted out with a Powerfist on the sarge and TH/SS on the WG. Then take a Lord with Wulfen Stone and Saga of the Hunter and a Battle Leader with Saga of the Savage (and make the whole thing a Stalker Pack) with either JP or a Thunderwolf. Then run everything up the field as fast as possible. If you can make everything work each of your BC squads now gets 5 TH attacks and 5 PF attacks on the charge (along with 20 chainsword attacks) while rerolling 1s to hit and wound.
Now this is going to cost you about 900 points so it's no longer a distraction but anything it comes into contact with will be dead. Get a Knight or something to draw fire and enjoy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only way to make them work is the Outflank strat that they have available. Even then, I'd think Blood Claws a better distraction.
Blood Claws don't work with outflank unless you send Ragnar along for the charge reroll, and even then it's only a 50% chance you make it in. I'd rather run Blood Claws like one would run World Eaters. Take 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannon, put a 6 man squad in each one, fully kitted out with a Powerfist on the sarge and TH/SS on the WG. Then take a Lord with Wulfen Stone and Saga of the Hunter and a Battle Leader with Saga of the Savage (and make the whole thing a Stalker Pack) with either JP or a Thunderwolf. Then run everything up the field as fast as possible. If you can make everything work each of your BC squads now gets 5 TH attacks and 5 PF attacks on the charge (along with 20 chainsword attacks) while rerolling 1s to hit and wound.
Now this is going to cost you about 900 points so it's no longer a distraction but anything it comes into contact with will be dead. Get a Knight or something to draw fire and enjoy.
Sadly the +1 attack Saga was nerfed even before the codex came out... So the sad thing is - it's giving +1 attack only to the bearer, not the aura (maaaaybe you'll kill 5 models with your lord somewhere in the middle of the game, but your squad probably will be dead to that moment already), so you'll only get +1 for wulfen stone and +1 for the charge, also 2 base. But for the friendly game is still good.
Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
That isn't what the topic is. What you're thinking of is "How would fluff dictate a Grey Hunter squad be equipped". This thread is asking how you would generally equip them, to which the answer is, unsurprisingly, "why use them?"
Not exactly difficult to grasp, especially with how bad the balance is currently.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
That isn't what the topic is. What you're thinking of is "How would fluff dictate a Grey Hunter squad be equipped". This thread is asking how you would generally equip them, to which the answer is, unsurprisingly, "why use them?"
Not exactly difficult to grasp, especially with how bad the balance is currently.
In fairness Space Wolves don't have access to scouts so tat does make a 5 may grey hunter squad the best budget choice for troops for a space wolf player. Sure Blood claws are cheaper (I think) but Grey Hunters might actually kill something before being killed
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only way to make them work is the Outflank strat that they have available. Even then, I'd think Blood Claws a better distraction.
Blood Claws don't work with outflank unless you send Ragnar along for the charge reroll, and even then it's only a 50% chance you make it in. I'd rather run Blood Claws like one would run World Eaters. Take 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannon, put a 6 man squad in each one, fully kitted out with a Powerfist on the sarge and TH/SS on the WG. Then take a Lord with Wulfen Stone and Saga of the Hunter and a Battle Leader with Saga of the Savage (and make the whole thing a Stalker Pack) with either JP or a Thunderwolf. Then run everything up the field as fast as possible. If you can make everything work each of your BC squads now gets 5 TH attacks and 5 PF attacks on the charge (along with 20 chainsword attacks) while rerolling 1s to hit and wound.
Now this is going to cost you about 900 points so it's no longer a distraction but anything it comes into contact with will be dead. Get a Knight or something to draw fire and enjoy.
See, I wouldn't even think about them making a charge the moment they arrive. Squads of 10 with the two leaders with the heavy melee component is cheap enough to be a distraction. That's all you need: JUST enough bodies. I had done a list like that with Sternguard led by Lias and surprisingly had moderate success. With the Deathwatch codex being the apple of my eye, though, I've essentially abandoned it.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
That isn't what the topic is. What you're thinking of is "How would fluff dictate a Grey Hunter squad be equipped". This thread is asking how you would generally equip them, to which the answer is, unsurprisingly, "why use them?"
Not exactly difficult to grasp, especially with how bad the balance is currently.
In fairness Space Wolves don't have access to scouts so tat does make a 5 may grey hunter squad the best budget choice for troops for a space wolf player. Sure Blood claws are cheaper (I think) but Grey Hunters might actually kill something before being killed
Blood Claws have strategems tied to them and honestly would be more scary once they do their thing. Grey Hunters would need max plasma to do anything. They won't kill anything at 5 dudes.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
You probably have loaded dice, not skill. It would probably take cheating to win with that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
You probably have loaded dice, not skill. It would probably take xheating to win with that.
wow someone admits to winning a game with a list and you accuse them of being a cheater? you're a class act dude.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
That isn't what the topic is. What you're thinking of is "How would fluff dictate a Grey Hunter squad be equipped". This thread is asking how you would generally equip them, to which the answer is, unsurprisingly, "why use them?"
Not exactly difficult to grasp, especially with how bad the balance is currently.
Considering this is in general and the question was, how would you generally equip them, I did answer that. If people don't like the answer that's all on them. Honestly the gnashing of teeth and screeching of " They Bad ! " is pretty funny to read. It's like the idea someone would use a bad unit is beyond even understanding on a basic level, or that someone might equip them in a way not considered to be as utter trash. Reminds me of when I started dark eldar and ran wyches and it infuriated someone I knew, every time I ran them as he felt they were so bad as to be beneath contempt.
A question was asked, and it was answered, not every answer needs to be the group think of what is the best but sometimes it might be what is best for the one responding. Some players actually like their armies even if the balance is bad.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
That isn't what the topic is. What you're thinking of is "How would fluff dictate a Grey Hunter squad be equipped". This thread is asking how you would generally equip them, to which the answer is, unsurprisingly, "why use them?"
Not exactly difficult to grasp, especially with how bad the balance is currently.
Nor is the topic "How do you use Grey Hunters in a WAAC Competitive Meta" It was a generic how to use question - where the proper answer would cover all bases. Not exactly difficult to grasp, but has surprisingly turned out to be so. There have been a number of people taking offense to the idea Fluffy 10 man + transport is "wrong" and a number who have said they're too bad to do anything else. They are obviously not from the same gaming groups with the same priorities. Too bad nobody pointed this sort of thing out earlier.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well, it's been proven here, the test of absolute warhammer skill comes in taking 10 man marine troop squads in drop pods, if you win the game you have the skills proof positive. So take that as a challenge marine players, because its been said you can't win any game ever with even one squad of them in your list. Take the marine iron man challenge. The more squads the take, and still win the more you can proclaim yourself king of the world !...of warhammer world !
That said, I hope people do realize some can see and know whats better or worse in the game but actually like the softer units because we " gasp " actually like the fluff of the overall game. I know, that's wrong think, but there it is. I think if I ever just played this game hyper competitive that would be the day I stop playing as the lists would be beyond boring.
You probably have loaded dice, not skill. It would probably take xheating to win with that.
wow someone admits to winning a game with a list and you accuse them of being a cheater? you're a class act dude.
It's alright, he's just still in pain from all the trouncing of his blood angels at the hands of the mean guardsmen, so lashing out is a normal part of the recovery process. I guess he just can't win with a drop pod and max troop squad in his marine list. Not everyone can handle the iron marine strike, we call it steel rain.
In fairness Space Wolves don't have access to scouts so tat does make a 5 may grey hunter squad the best budget choice for troops for a space wolf player. Sure Blood claws are cheaper (I think) but Grey Hunters might actually kill something before being killed
The do, but not as troops, not? Which is part of the problem with the new 2HQ/3Troop 5CP base detachment all but assigning CP on model count not points And I think Blood Claws and Grey Hunters are the same base price. Space Wolves are kind of jacked around even more by the change than normal Space Marines - but less so than DA -Wing armies. 3 Min cost Troop units to get to the "good" units are both understandable in a world run by the Loyal 32, and a sorry state of affairs for the game.
In fairness Space Wolves don't have access to scouts so tat does make a 5 may grey hunter squad the best budget choice for troops for a space wolf player. Sure Blood claws are cheaper (I think) but Grey Hunters might actually kill something before being killed
The do, but not as troops, not? Which is part of the problem with the new 2HQ/3Troop 5CP base detachment all but assigning CP on model count not points And I think Blood Claws and Grey Hunters are the same base price. Space Wolves are kind of jacked around even more by the change than normal Space Marines - but less so than DA -Wing armies. 3 Min cost Troop units to get to the "good" units are both understandable in a world run by the Loyal 32, and a sorry state of affairs for the game.
right I was specificly refering to them as troops. that said, if you belive that primaris will be out right REPLACING old Marines it seems GW has reckongized the "scout problem" and is moving to correct it,
You do realise suggesting this "iron marine" challenge for a NEW player is a bad thing, right? He doesn't have own experience to figure out what's good yet. First games are the most memorable, and being tabled out miserable because "oh, but but max squads in pods are fluffy" is harmful for someone, who just test the water.
I had seen own examples of players being turned off that way. One guy was adviced to buy a couple SWSC, because cavalry is a cheap way to fill 1000pts army. Then he figured out how bad it is on the table, and that he has to spend his money to actually buy the army from the scratch again, so he just sold out his army and quit.
Old veterans are used to imbalance and could play for the sake of game, new players are expecting the game, where they are able to win. There is little to none fluff in tabletop. Want the fluff? Play tabletop roleplay game. You have dark heresy, or d20, or savage, even shadow run core rules works awesome for the setting.
In tabletop there are two players directly against each other, and using flamers on aircraft, putting marins in aura Powerball etc have very little with fluff.
right I was specificly refering to them as troops. that said, if you belive that primaris will be out right REPLACING old Marines it seems GW has reckongized the "scout problem" and is moving to correct it,
At least they think they are. They're really just making it worse. Assuming you believe the Primaris will be outright replacing Old Marines (Including Scouts with Phobos Infiltrators and Eliminators). Getting rid of "cheaper" troops choices to be used in the CP generation core detachment just exacerbates the "scout problem" which is actually the CP per FOCC (Force Org Chart Choice) problem They well and truly punish non-generic armies. The -Wings, the Wind/Wild Riders, White Scars, etc. It's not a scout problem, its a tying CP to Detachments problem. It's a sticking to the unified cost/value scale problem they keep screwing up. Objective Securing is model count, even though we buy them with points/Power Level. CP are more accurately generated on model count than points/power level as well. I don't know what they thought CP was going to be, but whatever it was, it isn't that. CP, even more than the HQ/Warlord model is the personification of the player as a general on the tabletop. Between things like personalizing an army during list creation with special detachments, or combo-tricks with stratagems, they're how the player gets to inject themselves into the battle. The worst constructed most unfluffy smallest 500 point list ever should be able to generate X Command Points - with X being some minimum number to use a CP or so every turn on average. When you get to 2,000 points you should have a few but not many more - potentially enough more to delve into the specialist detachments but not so many if you didn't you'd be throwing CP away on a whim - The game isn't fewer game turns with fewer reroll chances because you're playing 500 points. In fact, the reroll becomes more important/relevant/effective/game changing/pick your adjective at 500 points.
At 500 Points of Guard I've got the loyal 32, 2 basilisks that get an extra 1AP on 6's to wound, (8CP -1 for Sepecialist = 7/2 per use = 3.5 uses) 1 of which can fire twice on 3 of my 6 turns, and about a hundred points of something just to rub some salt in the wounds... Masters of Ordnance to be able to use Catachan's and still have a reroll 1's, plus several turns of Orbital Bombardment maybe? I get to fire 2D6, reroll one, pick the best number of S9 AP -3 shots 5 times per two turns. I'll have 6 shots about 40% of the time - 84% of the time the first die won't be a 6, 84% of THAT time the second won't be a 6, 84% of THAT time the one I reroll STILL won't be a six. .84*.84*.84 is about 59% leaving about 40% of the time, one of the three rolls will be a six. Assume the rest of the time you average 3, 40% of 6 shots, and 60% of 3 shots, is 4.2 shots per firing, 2.47 hits, 2.0 and change wound rolls, 1.74 of which make it past a 6+ armor save (So the number is higher with my 6's going to negate armor entirely) - meaning 1.74 wounding hits per firing and 1.25 firings per turn and its 2.18 wounding hits that deal D3 (i.e. average 2 wounds) on the two wound Veteran Intercessor that likely has four CP at best (3 for Battle Forged plus 1 for a cheapie detachment, spending 1 to become an Indomitus Crusade detachment, and 1 to become Veteran Intercessors, and 2 left to use Rapid Fire, changing their Bolt Rifle to Rapid Fire 2... twice.
keep in mind when I say thge scout problem, I mean the issue with scouts, which should be the rarer special forces supplement for marines, being the primary troop choice of most marine lists. this is, for marines, a bit of a problem in that it's a disconnect. move to intercessors and infiltrators and you have your basic line troops, and the more expensive special forces infiltrators which can be used as specialty screeners.
I mean obviously it'd be nice if tac marines where just cheap eneugh to be seen as compeitive with scouts, but I think the 4+ armor save makes that hard, so.. yeah, hence intercessors and infiltrators.
Infiltrators actually could be a nice boost for a SW. I am looking forward to buy them when they will be released as separate kit.
Scouts as troop has two advantages over other troop choices: they are cheap, they provide some board control t1. Infiltrators will give sw at least one if this.
Infiltrators are also Troop Slot, and are fairly duplicative of scouts as special forces that sneak behind enemy lines. Don't get me wrong, Infiltrators solve a lot of the issues Scouts created - The idea that a fully trained Space Marine forgets how to sneak across the no-man's land like he did as a Scout.. yeesh.
Moving the Sniper role to the Eliminators is also a nice touch, but they need a higher ROF as well - even assuming they expand the Eliminator squad enough. I'd rather have 10 scout snipers than 6 Eliminators. (even 7 on equal-ish points)
Silver144 wrote: You do realise suggesting this "iron marine" challenge for a NEW player is a bad thing, right? He doesn't have own experience to figure out what's good yet. First games are the most memorable, and being tabled out miserable because "oh, but but max squads in pods are fluffy" is harmful for someone, who just test the water.
I had seen own examples of players being turned off that way. One guy was adviced to buy a couple SWSC, because cavalry is a cheap way to fill 1000pts army. Then he figured out how bad it is on the table, and that he has to spend his money to actually buy the army from the scratch again, so he just sold out his army and quit.
Old veterans are used to imbalance and could play for the sake of game, new players are expecting the game, where they are able to win. There is little to none fluff in tabletop. Want the fluff? Play tabletop roleplay game. You have dark heresy, or d20, or savage, even shadow run core rules works awesome for the setting.
In tabletop there are two players directly against each other, and using flamers on aircraft, putting marins in aura Powerball etc have very little with fluff.
You do realize that you're the one who suggested it with all of your whining?
The sound advice he's received is to learn his meta and go from there. You shouting "MEGA TOURNAMENTS ONLY !!!!1!!!1!!!" doesn't help him until he finds out that his meta actually plays that way. There are plenty of people here who have won with 10 man marine squads against stronger net lists, and if he's not playing against armies packed full of knights, then he can learn to use full sized squads successfully.
Silver144 wrote: You do realise suggesting this "iron marine" challenge for a NEW player is a bad thing, right? He doesn't have own experience to figure out what's good yet. First games are the most memorable, and being tabled out miserable because "oh, but but max squads in pods are fluffy" is harmful for someone, who just test the water.
I had seen own examples of players being turned off that way. One guy was adviced to buy a couple SWSC, because cavalry is a cheap way to fill 1000pts army. Then he figured out how bad it is on the table, and that he has to spend his money to actually buy the army from the scratch again, so he just sold out his army and quit.
Old veterans are used to imbalance and could play for the sake of game, new players are expecting the game, where they are able to win. There is little to none fluff in tabletop. Want the fluff? Play tabletop roleplay game. You have dark heresy, or d20, or savage, even shadow run core rules works awesome for the setting.
In tabletop there are two players directly against each other, and using flamers on aircraft, putting marins in aura Powerball etc have very little with fluff.
You do realize that you're the one who suggested it with all of your whining?
The sound advice he's received is to learn his meta and go from there. You shouting "MEGA TOURNAMENTS ONLY !!!!1!!!1!!!" doesn't help him until he finds out that his meta actually plays that way. There are plenty of people here who have won with 10 man marine squads against stronger net lists, and if he's not playing against armies packed full of knights, then he can learn to use full sized squads successfully.
Now be a gentleman and quote at least one my message where I did give him a "mega tournament only" suggestion. I am waiting.
Silver144 wrote: You do realise suggesting this "iron marine" challenge for a NEW player is a bad thing, right? He doesn't have own experience to figure out what's good yet. First games are the most memorable, and being tabled out miserable because "oh, but but max squads in pods are fluffy" is harmful for someone, who just test the water.
I had seen own examples of players being turned off that way. One guy was adviced to buy a couple SWSC, because cavalry is a cheap way to fill 1000pts army. Then he figured out how bad it is on the table, and that he has to spend his money to actually buy the army from the scratch again, so he just sold out his army and quit.
Old veterans are used to imbalance and could play for the sake of game, new players are expecting the game, where they are able to win. There is little to none fluff in tabletop. Want the fluff? Play tabletop roleplay game. You have dark heresy, or d20, or savage, even shadow run core rules works awesome for the setting.
In tabletop there are two players directly against each other, and using flamers on aircraft, putting marins in aura Powerball etc have very little with fluff.
You do realize that you're the one who suggested it with all of your whining?
The sound advice he's received is to learn his meta and go from there. You shouting "MEGA TOURNAMENTS ONLY !!!!1!!!1!!!" doesn't help him until he finds out that his meta actually plays that way. There are plenty of people here who have won with 10 man marine squads against stronger net lists, and if he's not playing against armies packed full of knights, then he can learn to use full sized squads successfully.
Now be a gentleman and quote at least one my message where I did give him a "mega tournament only" suggestion. I am waiting.
Here you go
Just no.
Taking GH is already handicap to your list, taking 10 man unit is outright shoot in your leg. Taking droppod for them is insane level of absurd.
No, there is no fluff in 8ed, not for marine.
Silver144 wrote: Ok, where do you see a "mega tournament only" here?
Or do you truly believe 5 man squad with plasma and axe on a leader I suggested on the previous post is "mega tournament only"?
I think what people are saying is that your comments of "you can never with a game with 10 man squads in a transport" is not a general statement, and does not apply to all games of 40k. Your comments especially seem to imply a highly competitive bent.
The OP might be asking this in regards to the competitive scene, or maybe they're more curious about what the fluff might say. This is why Breton made the most sensible comment out of the two of you, encouraging the OP to find out what their meta was like and what kind of games they wanted to play.
And for what it's worth, I've had success taking a 3x10 Tactical Squad list. Can't remember the exact list, but it was something like 3x10 Tacts, Terminators, Devastators, Calgar, a Lieutenant and I *think* Sternguard? Won pretty well against a Death Guard list.
Silver144 wrote: Ok, where do you see a "mega tournament only" here?
Or do you truly believe 5 man squad with plasma and axe on a leader I suggested on the previous post is "mega tournament only"?
I think what people are saying is that your comments of "you can never with a game with 10 man squads in a transport" is not a general statement, and does not apply to all games of 40k. Your comments especially seem to imply a highly competitive bent.
The OP might be asking this in regards to the competitive scene, or maybe they're more curious about what the fluff might say. This is why Breton made the most sensible comment out of the two of you, encouraging the OP to find out what their meta was like and what kind of games they wanted to play.
And for what it's worth, I've had success taking a 3x10 Tactical Squad list. Can't remember the exact list, but it was something like 3x10 Tacts, Terminators, Devastators, Calgar, a Lieutenant and I *think* Sternguard? Won pretty well against a Death Guard list.
People overestimate how "bad" troops are, especially when they're Objective Securing somewhere around half of the ways to score points today. Me personally I'd never take a 3x10 Tac list. Not out of a power grab or anything, I just want one of everything so I mix in a lot of squads Tac, Intercessor, Infiltrator, Scout.... That works pretty well too.
I prefer to have mono-troop lists where I can - so my Ultramarines 2nd is Tacticals, my Ultramarines 5th is Intercessors, my homebrew Chapter's 3rd is Intercessors, and my homebrew's 10th is Infiltrators, but I see your point.
Silver144 wrote: Ok, where do you see a "mega tournament only" here?
Or do you truly believe 5 man squad with plasma and axe on a leader I suggested on the previous post is "mega tournament only"?
I think what people are saying is that your comments of "you can never with a game with 10 man squads in a transport" is not a general statement, and does not apply to all games of 40k. Your comments especially seem to imply a highly competitive bent.
The OP might be asking this in regards to the competitive scene, or maybe they're more curious about what the fluff might say. This is why Breton made the most sensible comment out of the two of you, encouraging the OP to find out what their meta was like and what kind of games they wanted to play.
And for what it's worth, I've had success taking a 3x10 Tactical Squad list. Can't remember the exact list, but it was something like 3x10 Tacts, Terminators, Devastators, Calgar, a Lieutenant and I *think* Sternguard? Won pretty well against a Death Guard list.
People overestimate how "bad" troops are, especially when they're Objective Securing somewhere around half of the ways to score points today. Me personally I'd never take a 3x10 Tac list. Not out of a power grab or anything, I just want one of everything so I mix in a lot of squads Tac, Intercessor, Infiltrator, Scout.... That works pretty well too.
Nah, there's actually some good troops. Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines are not (Grey Hunters less so, of course).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Silver144 wrote: Infiltrators actually could be a nice boost for a SW. I am looking forward to buy them when they will be released as separate kit.
Scouts as troop has two advantages over other troop choices: they are cheap, they provide some board control t1. Infiltrators will give sw at least one if this.
I'm more annoyed with the inconsistency that Wolf Scouts are supposed to be Vets but lack Vet stats.
Silver144 wrote: You do realise suggesting this "iron marine" challenge for a NEW player is a bad thing, right? He doesn't have own experience to figure out what's good yet. First games are the most memorable, and being tabled out miserable because "oh, but but max squads in pods are fluffy" is harmful for someone, who just test the water.
I had seen own examples of players being turned off that way. One guy was adviced to buy a couple SWSC, because cavalry is a cheap way to fill 1000pts army. Then he figured out how bad it is on the table, and that he has to spend his money to actually buy the army from the scratch again, so he just sold out his army and quit.
Old veterans are used to imbalance and could play for the sake of game, new players are expecting the game, where they are able to win. There is little to none fluff in tabletop. Want the fluff? Play tabletop roleplay game. You have dark heresy, or d20, or savage, even shadow run core rules works awesome for the setting.
In tabletop there are two players directly against each other, and using flamers on aircraft, putting marins in aura Powerball etc have very little with fluff.
My standard line to new players is this " You're going to lose a lot before you ever win, make peace with that now and always look to how you can improve and you will before you know it win more than you lose. "
If a new player is so soft shell that some loss out the gate turns them off from the game, they weren't really ever going to last. If all you play a game for is to win, you probably won't play it much in the long run as there is always a better player or a more un balanced list, especially in warhammer. So no, I don't think its a poor idea at all to bring up taking a challenge, it's only through challenge and struggle we grow. A better player will come out of not taking the easy path off the bat but accepting some struggle for the higher gain. I didn't lie and say it was a strong list, I said it was a worse choice it's simply the choice I take. So you can teach your noobs the way you want, I would rather a new player stand the test of time as opposed to spoon feed him into the meta without learning what it is first hand and playing it out to decide what he'd rather, sometimes they surprise you and themselves.
Silver144 wrote: Ok, where do you see a "mega tournament only" here?
Or do you truly believe 5 man squad with plasma and axe on a leader I suggested on the previous post is "mega tournament only"?
It's the competitive build for people who play highly competitive games. Not that people who don't stick to 5 man only seem to have much problems with practice.
So, yeah. When you push net-lists like you are, you're pushing tournament builds.
Misfittoy wrote: I am new to 40k and was wondering what weapon options people used for their squads.
Hmm. Looks like I'm late to this debate. And how I like to run my GH will surely cause a stroke in somebody around here.... But you asked.
I have 3 squads of GH in my SW army.
Squad #1 (sitting on my work table atm as I'm adding details accrued during their last few games - battle honors, kill stripes, etc) consists of:
1 WG - Power armor, bolt pistol, power/frost axe (wich depends upon the edition of the moment)
Power sword/plasma pistol
Power fist/plasma pistol
Flamer
Bolter
Bolter
Bolter
And a drop pod
Squad 2 is similar, but has a Meltagun. Squad 3 has a plasma gun.
*My Wolfguard are not permanent attachments. I have about a dozen made up in various combos & plug them into squads on a game to game basis. Just so happened that Bolt pistol/axe guy was attached during the game this pack finished off a Lord of Change. And so he gets a kill stripe along with the squad.
*Drop pods - Yes. I'm thoroughly annoyed with the current Deep Strike rules. But my Wolves have been a 100% drop pod based army since 2e (using those awful Armorcast pod models) and I'm not changing that now. Eventually the rules will shift again to my favor.
You dare use drop pods ?! You'll never win a game ever and everyone will laugh at you !!
In case it's hard to read there is heavy sarcasm and I kid, sounds like some sweet squads and my wolves aren't total podded but I have a few so their current state is awful and I really do hope they come back around to be useful soonish once more.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You dare use drop pods ?! You'll never win a game ever and everyone will laugh at you !!
In case it's hard to read there is heavy sarcasm and I kid, sounds like some sweet squads and my wolves aren't total podded but I have a few so their current state is awful and I really do hope they come back around to be useful soonish once more.
I've got three pods built, a fouth on the sprue, and would really like to get it built and painted to get it in the hole in the battlefoam tray. I suspect of all the Transports that could transition to Primaris as is, the Drop Pod is the most likely. It's iconically Space Marine, and they're already replacing Land Raiders with Repulsors. Of course, Pods were already ridiculously small for what they were supposed to contain so who knows for sure.
While I'll agree that pushing the it isn't the most powerful option ever line, don't even think of taking it line is extreme, I do think it's important to be honest with new players about the current state of units.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Misfittoy wrote: I am new to 40k and was wondering what weapon options people used for their squads.
Hmm. Looks like I'm late to this debate. And how I like to run my GH will surely cause a stroke in somebody around here.... But you asked.
I have 3 squads of GH in my SW army.
Squad #1 (sitting on my work table atm as I'm adding details accrued during their last few games - battle honors, kill stripes, etc) consists of:
1 WG - Power armor, bolt pistol, power/frost axe (wich depends upon the edition of the moment)
Power sword/plasma pistol
Power fist/plasma pistol
Flamer
Bolter
Bolter
Bolter
And a drop pod
Squad 2 is similar, but has a Meltagun. Squad 3 has a plasma gun.
*My Wolfguard are not permanent attachments. I have about a dozen made up in various combos & plug them into squads on a game to game basis. Just so happened that Bolt pistol/axe guy was attached during the game this pack finished off a Lord of Change. And so he gets a kill stripe along with the squad.
*Drop pods - Yes. I'm thoroughly annoyed with the current Deep Strike rules. But my Wolves have been a 100% drop pod based army since 2e (using those awful Armorcast pod models) and I'm not changing that now. Eventually the rules will shift again to my favor.
I am interested in your format, I like the idea of have one of each of the types of specials, was wondering about the Power Fist/ Plasma Pistol, and the Power Sword/Plasma Pistol. Do you run them on your Pack Leader?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have to say I had an issue when I first started of having a mouth bigger than my eyes, I bought the burning of Prospero for the Mk 3 armor and then an older than I thought battlebox of standard marines, a chaplain, a dreadnought, land speeder and a land raider. I agree I rushed in a little to fast with picking up packs, thus looking more at Grey Hunters. I had read that they were better than the Blood Claws is that thought out dated now?
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
So the moment his meta isn't super competitive and he gets a rep as TFG for NOT buying GH, it's a bad choice? Which makes you a bad person? I didn't make the rules, I'm just making sure I have them right.
Might as well make the smarter choice and figure out what his meta is first.
All this "don't buy it, it's bad" is, in my opinion, bad advice. Also, it's just marine whining.
I have many Grey Hunters, and I run quite a few of them in any given Space Wolf list, mostly because I have them in numbers and don't have their competitors in numbers. While I would generally express a preference for Intercessors or Blood Claws in any given circumstance, it is possible to make them perform adequately.
Sometimes use my Grey Hunters as my minimum-cost-detachment-filler, with minimum loadout, because while Intercessors are good, they're also expensive, and I'm not always up to spend those extra points [especially if my Space Wolves detachment is fire support for another faction's close-assault detachment]. T4 and 2+ in cover is pretty decent for objective holders, especially with a -1 to hit. Other times, I'll load them up with plasmaguns and outflank them, sometimes with additional power weapons; having them there as a threat with plasma is in my experience more effective than having Blood Claws in outflank as a outflank threat.
Theoretically, they're outperformed point-for-point in any given capacity by Intercessors, Hellblasters, or Wolf Guard, but they're also less expensive than those competing options. Also, we're "losing less" by downgrading because we can't take Indomitus Crusaders anyway,
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Honestly I've found asking for advise on what to get in 40k on dakka dakka is useless., people talk as if the only way to play is with a ITC tourny netlist etc.
Honestly I've found asking for advise on what to get in 40k on dakka dakka is useless., people talk as if the only way to play is with a ITC tourny netlist etc.
Its more common among the "tournament" players, but it can also show up in the fluffy players. I try and give at least a couple answers with an "It Depends...." beginning to cover multiple bases/branches or provide an "On the other hand..." if someone replies before me charging full speed ahead one way without any thought to the other(s).
Honestly I've found asking for advise on what to get in 40k on dakka dakka is useless., people talk as if the only way to play is with a ITC tourny netlist etc.
Its more common among the "tournament" players, but it can also show up in the fluffy players. I try and give at least a couple answers with an "It Depends...." beginning to cover multiple bases/branches or provide an "On the other hand..." if someone replies before me charging full speed ahead one way without any thought to the other(s).
I try to remember when giving advice that by time a genuinely new player to 40k breaks onto the tourny scene, he's got to assmble and paint his army and then learn the intricacies of the game that takes time, by time he's that serious FAQs will have come and gone if not whole editions so the meta will certainly have changed.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
So the moment his meta isn't super competitive and he gets a rep as TFG for NOT buying GH, it's a bad choice? Which makes you a bad person? I didn't make the rules, I'm just making sure I have them right.
Might as well make the smarter choice and figure out what his meta is first.
No, it simply means they didn't buy expensive models to create a bad army.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
I dont do it because i might not understand some interaction they were going for. Not because its bad.
Ive seen hellblasters backfire over and over and over. Everyone thinks the dumb banner makes them good. Newsflash: your expensive ass model is still dead AF.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
It's $40, and Grey Hunters aren't so bad you won't succeed with them, and they will perform adequately if not wholly mismanaged. Also, they're 65 points, it's remarkably hard for them to reach the point of "so bad you can't win" unless you bring like 90 of them. They do most of what you want them to do just fine.
Finally, Marines, MEQ, and Space Wolves aren't that bad anyway.
They're pretty terrible. Making them your primary faction puts you off a full standard deviation or more in win % in a competitive setting. All loyalist power armor sans DA are clocking in in the same range of win %, regardless of gimmick. The basal concept doesn't work well in 8th.
It's $40, and Grey Hunters aren't so bad you won't succeed with them, and they will perform adequately if not wholly mismanaged. Also, they're 65 points, it's remarkably hard for them to reach the point of "so bad you can't win" unless you bring like 90 of them. They do most of what you want them to do just fine.
Finally, Marines, MEQ, and Space Wolves aren't that bad anyway.
It's $40, and Grey Hunters aren't so bad you won't succeed with them, and they will perform adequately if not wholly mismanaged. Also, they're 65 points, it's remarkably hard for them to reach the point of "so bad you can't win" unless you bring like 90 of them. They do most of what you want them to do just fine.
Finally, Marines, MEQ, and Space Wolves aren't that bad anyway.
40$ is not pocket change.
$40 isn't pocket change, but it's also not a lot of money either.
While I think that Grey Hunters will perform just fine, because mine do, if you really aren't happy with them, buy a box of Intercessors next month.
With regards to their good-ness, I find that, for a 65-75 point unit, they're cheap enough that I don't really care about marginal gains in efficiency from switching to intercessors. In addition, I don't think it's Grey Hunters that are what's "setting you back by a standard deviation".
IMHO the grey hunter box is one of the best values among basic old marines on the market. being cheaper then a tac squad but also having a ton of useful spare bits. Heck I'd argue even if you wheren't intending on deploying grey hunters it might be worth snagging the box for your bits box.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the grey hunter box is one of the best values among basic old marines on the market. being cheaper then a tac squad but also having a ton of useful spare bits. Heck I'd argue even if you wheren't intending on deploying grey hunters it might be worth snagging the box for your bits box.
I would agree with this sentiment too. All the bits I've got from a bunch of grey hunters has gone a long way for me.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the grey hunter box is one of the best values among basic old marines on the market. being cheaper then a tac squad but also having a ton of useful spare bits. Heck I'd argue even if you wheren't intending on deploying grey hunters it might be worth snagging the box for your bits box.
I'm not denying that buying a box for the bitz is sometimes a good idea. The models themselves built as Grey Hunters though is an entirely different story.
I currently run two five man squads of Grey Hunters and a Rhino.
Squad A is bare bones - all carrying Bolter, Chainswords and Bolt Pistols. They get the Rhino armed with twin Storm Bolters and are completely suicidal, their job is to kill infantry then die.
Squad B is similar, five men, Bolters, Chainswords, Bolt Pistols but one model is packing a Plasma Gun. They’re kind of suicidal as well, they Cunning of the Wolf bag an objective or cover in my opponent’s deployment damage or destroy something more expensive than they are then die - I’ve considered throwing a WGTermie packing a Storm Bolter or Combi-Plasma and a Storm Shield in with them but that just seems to make it harder to get their value before they die rather than making them harder to kill.
My third troop choice is Infiltrators, Space Wolves with Concealed Position demand attention and just like the Grey Hunters exist in my list for the purposes of killing screening models and drawing attention away from Wulfen and WGBikers.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
They're more durable than Blood Claws.
Smart opponents can make it so Blood Claws need a Wolf Guard babysitter or surrender their turn by declaring Advance to prevent them being forced to suicide charge.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
They're more durable than Blood Claws.
Smart opponents can make it so Blood Claws need a Wolf Guard babysitter or surrender their turn by declaring Advance to prevent them being forced to suicide charge.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Plus Grey Hunters are more expensive because they NEED to buy Special Weapons. Claws don't even really need the Power Weapons or Fists added to do the job of charging and tying up.
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
[/spoiler]
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Plus Grey Hunters are more expensive because they NEED to buy Special Weapons. Claws don't even really need the Power Weapons or Fists added to do the job of charging and tying up.
It is most certainly a rule, even if it doesn't come up quite as often as say, ballistic skill.
So you're saying that Grey Hunters are more expensive because they can do more than one thing? I'M SHOCKED! SHOCKED I SAY!
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
Its personal bias with a healthy dose of hypocrisy. They're bad because I say they're bad, even if your meta does look down on and ostracize people who don't take the basic troops in fluffy and less competitive levels and anyone who tells someone in that Meta to listbuild with those criteria in mind is evil, making them waste their money. But when I tell them to ignore the crtieria that will get them a game in the first place, and just Min-Max everything it's smart purchasing. Sure they can't get a game at all, but at least they're not getting a ton of games using models I think are stupid.
Edit to continue:
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Objective Secured is a non-rule because I don't play with it. I just do how much of your stuff I kill, because that's all that matters, and everyone who doesn't play the way I do doesn't count.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
Its personal bias with a healthy dose of hypocrisy. They're bad because I say they're bad, even if your meta does look down on and ostracize people who don't take the basic troops in fluffy and less competitive levels and anyone who tells someone in that Meta to listbuild with those criteria in mind is evil, making them waste their money. But when I tell them to ignore the crtieria that will get them a game in the first place, and just Min-Max everything it's smart purchasing. Sure they can't get a game at all, but at least they're not getting a ton of games using models I think are stupid.
Edit to continue:
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Objective Secured is a non-rule because I don't play with it. I just do how much of your stuff I kill, because that's all that matters, and everyone who doesn't play the way I do doesn't count.
And where was I a hypocrite? Pray tell, please.
You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
40k isn't a video game were you can just swap out options with no loss of money or hobby time. I can see a new player being frustrated if they bought three boxes of GH and DPs only to learn that they just dropped 100s of dollars on units that right now are kinda in the dog house.
Bingo. Outside of needing certain bitz, encouraging new players to make bad purchases makes you a bad person.
Which is why the OP was told it would be best to learn his meta...
If his meta isn't super competitive, Grey Hunters aren't a bad purchase.
So the moment it DOES go competitive, they're a bad choice.
Might as well make the smarter purchase first.
For their meta it is a smart purchase.
Why is this that hard for you to understand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ILK
Unlike hellblasters, they are a troop choice, so there's a possible benefit from that as well.
Because that "smart purchase" isn't just $5. It's almost 10× that amount. Best buy stuff that's capable.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
You can get more Plasma outflanked with different units, and I already pointed out this could be done. At least Blood Claws fill a better niche of potentially tying up units.
There's no point to Grey Hunters right now.
And how many of those options are also objective secured, AND spacewolves? Besides, if you're just looking at tying up a unit, Grey Hunters are just as durable as blood claws.
[/spoiler]
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Plus Grey Hunters are more expensive because they NEED to buy Special Weapons. Claws don't even really need the Power Weapons or Fists added to do the job of charging and tying up.
It is most certainly a rule, even if it doesn't come up quite as often as say, ballistic skill.
So you're saying that Grey Hunters are more expensive because they can do more than one thing? I'M SHOCKED! SHOCKED I SAY!
What's the point of doing more than one thing if you suck at everything?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
So perhaps you should see what the OP's environment is like first before making assumptions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
So perhaps you should see what the OP's environment is like first before making assumptions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
So perhaps you should see what the OP's environment is like first before making assumptions.
No kidding...
Plasma doesn't suck. 3-6 Plasma shots for more than 160 points DOES suck though. Would you make the same argument if they only ever got one Plasma Gun in their squad and that's it?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
So perhaps you should see what the OP's environment is like first before making assumptions.
That doesn't refute my point about making smart purchases and modeling in the first place though. Not sure what the point of your post is to be frank.
"Would you make the same argument if they only ever got one Plasma Gun in their squad and that's it?"
That's not the case, so It's not an argument I feel compelled to make.
"3-6 Plasma shots for more than 160 points DOES suck though."
That would depend on the meta. 2-4 plasma shots for 103 points, while having a 2+, and ballistic skill 3+ and T4 are far better than 2-4 plasma shots that hit on a 4+ with T3, with a 4+ armor save for 98 points.
" That doesn't refute my point about making smart purchases and modeling in the first place though. Not sure what the point of your post is to be frank. "
You only don't understand because you're purposely being obtuse.
"Would you make the same argument if they only ever got one Plasma Gun in their squad and that's it?"
That's not the case, so It's not an argument I feel compelled to make.
"3-6 Plasma shots for more than 160 points DOES suck though."
That would depend on the meta. 2-4 plasma shots for 103 points, while having a 2+, and ballistic skill 3+ and T4 are far better than 2-4 plasma shots that hit on a 4+ with T3, with a 4+ armor save for 98 points.
" That doesn't refute my point about making smart purchases and modeling in the first place though. Not sure what the point of your post is to be frank. "
You only don't understand because you're purposely being obtuse.
I love you assume the 2+ that's unlikely to happen anyway.
I find it funny that blood claws are being viewed as better by some when they are nearly identical only GH have guns and claws have a big drawback with a situational 1 turn advantage. GH are fine. At least as fine as marines can be. I just saw a player run 3x5 of each all slogging with tdawgs attached and honestly the GH were superior because bolter discipline but both did better than I'd ever anticipate.
If a player is considering either choice their meta is fairly friendly so it's not a make or break decision.
dominuschao wrote: I find it funny that blood claws are being viewed as better by some when they are nearly identical only GH have guns and claws have a big drawback with a situational 1 turn advantage. GH are fine. At least as fine as marines can be. I just saw a player run 3x5 of each all slogging with tdawgs attached and honestly the GH were superior because bolter discipline but both did better than I'd ever anticipate.
If a player is considering either choice their meta is fairly friendly so it's not a make or break decision.
OP- Buy the box you'll like it.
I said Blood Claws fulfill a better niche. They're not exactly much better.
Kids, take your Grey Hunters, they are sweet and fun and the box is good. Also you'll enjoy the bits and things for the inevitable wolf guard set ups as well.
If you want to enrage people, run large GH squads, with maybe some pods and watch the world burn. Then, if you win, claim it's because you are a tactical genius, one whom Sun Tzu would have to admit is the master of war.
Also, keep in mind Drop pods and marine Power armored troops aren't the best in the world, so your mileage may vary, but you should still be able to win a game and when you do, drive your enemy before you and cherish the lamentation of their women as you know what is best in life. Grey Hunters.
So a unit that can carry a few plasma guns, out-flank onto an objective, and sit in cover with a 2+ armor save, all while overriding non-troops for control of the objective. AKA Grey Hunters.
You've missed the whole point of what people are telling, probably on purpose at this point.
Its personal bias with a healthy dose of hypocrisy. They're bad because I say they're bad, even if your meta does look down on and ostracize people who don't take the basic troops in fluffy and less competitive levels and anyone who tells someone in that Meta to listbuild with those criteria in mind is evil, making them waste their money. But when I tell them to ignore the crtieria that will get them a game in the first place, and just Min-Max everything it's smart purchasing. Sure they can't get a game at all, but at least they're not getting a ton of games using models I think are stupid.
Edit to continue:
Objective Secured is such a non-rule.
Objective Secured is a non-rule because I don't play with it. I just do how much of your stuff I kill, because that's all that matters, and everyone who doesn't play the way I do doesn't count.
And where was I a hypocrite? Pray tell, please.
You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
About the point where what you decided was a "smart purchase" was a smart purchase in every meta, even those that don't appreciate your idea of a "smart" list and telling people to play a less "smart" list to fit in with their local meta was evil or some such.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'll still get games in because most people aren't ass hats about you making smarter purchases. Not my fault your local sea is clearly fitting the definition of CAAC
So perhaps you should see what the OP's environment is like first before making assumptions.
Good Luck with that. Several people have tried to make that point. Maybe you'll finally get through, but the usual answer from him boils down to local environments that don't agree with him are just wrong, and should be shown the error of their ways.
Oh look, I called it.
That doesn't refute my point about making smart purchases and modeling in the first place though. Not sure what the point of your post is to be frank.
