OK, so we are supposed to get a reveal tomorrow, which is more than likely the new marines that have been shown in the blurry pics recently. However, does this mean we will see a new codex soon?

If we are, how is this going to be presented. They have to add all of the new vanguard marines in Shadowspear, plus the new executioner, new hover tank, new dread, etc. And this is before they even release the Gravis line of Primaris (who I assume won't be in a new codex unless it is released much later).
This codex is going to be enormous.....unless, it becomes Primaris only. Do we think that we are at that point where this will happen? basically a mini-dex that is simply Primaris and gets tacked onto the existing SM codex.

It's definitely going to be interesting from here on out.

Its gotta be a Primaris only book no?

There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

I think it's worth mentioning that Shadowspear really only added three units:
Suppressors, Infiltrators, and Eliminators

The Lt, Captain, and Librarian are just tagged as "In Phobos Armor".

I did a count awhile back as to how many units are in the Marine book. Excluding named/Chapter specific characters/units(the Emperor's Champion for example)?

68 unit entries.
Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?

Cutting some of those units down would free up space in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

 oni wrote:
There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Or 3) Retire some Firstborn entries to the Index and consolidate others into a single entry in order to make room for the new Primaris toys. There's easily like 12 units they could do this with.

Well, the minimarines will be retired to some index or legacy PDF at some point, though I doubt it will happen yet.

Lemondish wrote:

 oni wrote:
There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Or 3) Retire some Firstborn entries to the Index and consolidate others into a single entry in order to make room for the new Primaris toys. There's easily like 12 units they could do this with.

You can say that but at this point GW either need to go full comitment and squat the specific codex's or every marine chapter would be the same as primaris marines don't outside of UM have any chapter or legion specific units

Without mini marines you don't have any justification for the subfaction codex's.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Ice_can wrote:

You can say that but at this point GW either need to go full comitment and squat the specific codex's or every marine chapter would be the same as primaris marines don't outside of UM have any chapter or legion specific units

Yet.

I don't have any inside knowledge or anything. I just think it rather telling that we're getting an Iron Hands special character within the next few months(a Chapter that previously only had a flipping upgrade kit from GW; their transfer sheets and other stuff was from FW and only came about with the damn Heresy stuff!). And it's not like Ultramarines have that much specific to them: it's, so far, just the Victrix Guard(who only come with an Ultramarines character to boot!)

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

I definatly think GW's going to need to reevaluate how they present their datasheets within an edition or two.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

 Ratius wrote:
Its gotta be a Primaris only book no?

Primaris is the new black (or it should be).

A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that Shadowspear really only added three units:
Suppressors, Infiltrators, and Eliminators

The Lt, Captain, and Librarian are just tagged as "In Phobos Armor".

I did a count awhile back as to how many units are in the Marine book. Excluding named/Chapter specific characters/units(the Emperor's Champion for example)?

68 unit entries.
Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?

Cutting some of those units down would free up space in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

Yeah. One Captain entry handling the Bike and Jump Pack and another to handle "Terminator" makes more sense.

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

Agreed, it pretty much has to be a Primaris dedicated book, that any chapter can draw from. It does make some redundancy between other Codexes and this Primaris book, but I think that's far less of an issue than other options.

Mainly that the regular SM codex is bloated already, and there are loads of Datasheets that need properly publishing between Shadowspear, Repulsor Executioner, the new blurry units, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. It would make a complete SM codex impossible imo.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

I'm going even further with the Terminator HQ consolidation. Just let the Captain buy whatever weapons are available and you're gold. Hell it strikes me as odd that, if a Chapter had 4 suits of regular Terminator armor and 1 Cata with nothing but the Autocannon, they don't just pair up that Cata with the other four suits. It's too stupid and just needs to go.

Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

Yeah they can do that to the marine codex as soon as everyone else looses the abilities to take 3 tanks for 1 datasheet nonsense.
Having all those dreadnaught datasheets etc arn't redundant aslong as the rule of 3 exsists in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

He has a point enjoy making a primaris smash captain. Or a primaris anything with a Thunderhammer oh yeah they can't even take basic things like a chainsword FFS.

Serious question: how many people actually are running more than 3 units of Terminators, Land Raiders, etc in competitive circumstances(read: where the Rule of 3 actually exists)?

Skitarii players had to sort it out thanks to losing the Onager Squadron rules. You'll be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

Do you really think those options won't come back when kits get released?

If the theory is that there is going to be a Gravis wave down the line, there is no point doing Codex: Primaris Marines (or whatever) yet.

Wait for that wave, then you've got all three types of Primaris (standard, Phobos, Gravis) in one book.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Serious question: how many people actually are running more than 3 units of Terminators, Land Raiders, etc in competitive circumstances(read: where the Rule of 3 actually exists)?

Skitarii players had to sort it out thanks to losing the Onager Squadron rules. You'll be fine.

I've run a lot more than 3 dreadnaughts in a list on multiple occasions.
I've also seen lists with multiple squads of sternguard and vanguard combining them into 1 datasheet would invalidate that players list.

You can say it's just the high points units that currently have bad rules, but some of the suggestions go as far as making every captain the same datasheet. NO Thanks atleast untill GW sort out the terrible ness that is Lieutenant Wargear choice oh the CC focused HQ without and invulnerable save but no you can't have a storm shield or Terminator Armour.

While having generic tac, roid vamprie tactical squad and emo secret heretic tactical squads is daft, it's a problem GW need to figure out as if primaris is the future its just intercessors with different paint jobs.

Either they admit that primaris is it and everyone playing marines will be playing the same army or they arn't actually loosing old marines or they just don't have a plan and are winging it and it's going ti have another edition or more before marines will be playing from a functional codex.

Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

 Dysartes wrote:
If the theory is that there is going to be a Gravis wave down the line, there is no point doing Codex: Primaris Marines (or whatever) yet.

Wait for that wave, then you've got all three types of Primaris (standard, Phobos, Gravis) in one book.

Don’t forget the upcoming Mark X.III Teflon Armor.

If A Gravis update is coming in the next couple of months, I could see a delay in putting out an update SM codex, but otherwise, you just need a sensible cutoff point where enough models have been added that rolling them into one book is just plain needed.

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Ice_can wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Limit per detachment and per army should be on a Unit's datasheet, not a global rule. Rule of Three is bad because its a work around. Lots of Units in the game should be 1 per army, many others 1 per detachment.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Limit per detachment and per army should be on a Unit's datasheet, not a global rule. Rule of Three is bad because its a work around. Lots of Units in the game should be 1 per army, many others 1 per detachment.

I would see that as more of an improvement of the rule rather than the complete rescinding of the rule.

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Limit per detachment and per army should be on a Unit's datasheet, not a global rule. Rule of Three is bad because its a work around. Lots of Units in the game should be 1 per army, many others 1 per detachment.

1 per army, or 1 per X points or part thereof (where X is something like 3,000, maybe)?

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

That's a problem with the Guard book being full of broken crap, not with the Rule of Three being a flawed concept. Nothing heavier than a Land Speeder or a Sentinal should be fieldable in Squadrons.

The majority is not wrong on this one.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

You can't be wrong about whether or not you like playing with it.

No one is running 12 Leman Russes and getting anywhere competitively with it though. It's not a problem, so why get so worked up about it?

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

You can't be wrong about whether or not you like playing with it.

No one is running 12 Leman Russes and getting anywhere competitively with it though. It's not a problem, so why get so worked up about it?

Soooooooo if Russes are theoretically at a point cost where you wouldn't need Rule of Three, why can't we do the same for Flyrants and price them appropriately?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

Which, for your Eldar you keep playing martyr for, you have in your index. Or are you suggesting the Index is to be considered defunct?

There's honestly no reason the three frickin separate Terminator Captain entries need to exist. We can put it into one and be done with it.

Pricing units appropriately isn't the only way to achieve balance, which is good because its basically impossible to do. More realistically, there are certain units that are supposed to be really good and very efficient, but should be limited in their quantity to stop them from being spammed. Flyrants and Daemon Princes are both examples of this.

Consider: If they were priced in such a way that it isn't worth taking multiples of them, why care about the rule of 3?

Also consider: How do you go about pricing a Flyrant in such a way that it is worth taking 1, but not worth taking 3 or 6? That's a pretty damn hard balancing act. So just let it be good, but limit the number.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Pricing units appropriately isn't the only way to achieve balance, which is good because its basically impossible to do. More realistically, there are certain units that are supposed to be really good and very efficient, but should be limited in their quantity to stop them from being spammed. Flyrants and Daemon Princes are both examples of this.

Consider: If they were priced in such a way that it isn't worth taking multiples of them, why care about the rule of 3?

Also consider: How do you go about pricing a Flyrant in such a way that it is worth taking 1, but not worth taking 3 or 6? That's a pretty damn hard balancing act. So just let it be good, but limit the number.

Easy:
You make it so that you can only take one per Detachment. It worked for Tau Commanders(Yeah, I know it was a crummy move there...but the difference is that Crisis Suits are trash and need to be upped) in that regard.

Frankly, it's a garbage argument that was made with regards to a lot of these specialist units for Marines.Combat Squads addresses a lot of these issues pretty effectively(allowing for a single 10-man squad to become 2 5-mans is kind of a big deal if this comes into play) but currently is only used with cheap crap to get more objective secured.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

You can't be wrong about whether or not you like playing with it.

No one is running 12 Leman Russes and getting anywhere competitively with it though. It's not a problem, so why get so worked up about it?

Soooooooo if Russes are theoretically at a point cost where you wouldn't need Rule of Three, why can't we do the same for Flyrants and price them appropriately?

Because balance in 40k is far more complex than can possibly be encapsulated in a single number value. Some units become exponentially more powerful when taken in greater numbers. It would be a great shame to not be able to have units with that kind of design in the game. So rule of 3 is a great safety valve to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As another user suggested too, balance purely through point costing is impossible to achieve in any practical sense. You need other checks and balances.

Another reason this is more of an issue now than in previous editions:

In the past, units tended to have more specific roles. It was common for a unit to be efficient in one area, but then have a glaring weakness or counter. It could be worth using units that were quite inefficient overall just because they were good at one specific role. An army would use a bunch of different specialists, but in limited quantities to balance their pros and cons. Generalist units did exist, but they tended to not really be particularly efficient in any role except perhaps durability per point.

But due to how rules have changed in 8th, this effect has eroded. Now, we pretty much just look at a units efficiency as this rock/paper/scissors dynamic is pretty much gone. Units now tend to be overall efficient or not. This is why if you have a unit that is efficient, its good to just spam a ton of it because nothing is going to hard counter it anyways.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

Truthfully, I expect Onagers to get some kind of tweak and squadrons to return when they redo the AdMech book. There's too many missing things from the Onagers(the Manipulator Arm, Mindscanner Probes, etc...).

And I'm thinking that updated book will be in the next six months or so. I'm kinda/sorta expecting the next campaign to feature Iron Hands going after the Emperor's Children and AdMech to play a part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

But due to how rules have changed in 8th, this effect has eroded. Now, we pretty much just look at a units efficiency as this rock/paper/scissors dynamic is pretty much gone. Units now tend to be overall efficient or not. This is why if you have a unit that is efficient, its good to just spam a ton of it because nothing is going to hard counter it anyways.

This is the nostalgia effect. This has always been the case when it comes to competitive play(which is really where Rule of 3 only comes into play).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Not the first time most people are wrong. Balance the units properly and it is not needed. The rule affects different armies completely disproportionately. Some armies get a ways to basically ignore it, other don't. It is blatantly stupid that you can have 12 Leman Russes (not even counting FW variants) but only three Onagers.

Truthfully, I expect Onagers to get some kind of tweak and squadrons to return when they redo the AdMech book. There's too many missing things from the Onagers(the Manipulator Arm, Mindscanner Probes, etc...).

And I'm thinking that updated book will be in the next six months or so. I'm kinda/sorta expecting the next campaign to feature Iron Hands going after the Emperor's Children and AdMech to play a part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

But due to how rules have changed in 8th, this effect has eroded. Now, we pretty much just look at a units efficiency as this rock/paper/scissors dynamic is pretty much gone. Units now tend to be overall efficient or not. This is why if you have a unit that is efficient, its good to just spam a ton of it because nothing is going to hard counter it anyways.

This is the nostalgia effect. This has always been the case when it comes to competitive play(which is really where Rule of 3 only comes into play).

Its not just nostalgia. It's a clear pattern from looking at army lists. In 5th ed, you looked at the efficiency of a unit within a specific role. In 8th, the roles are much less specific. In 5th, it was very rare for a unit to be good at anti horde, anti MeQ, and anti- armor. Generally it'd be good at just one. But now we regularly have units that are good at 2/3 or even 3/3 of those, but often not as good at any single one as units in 5th were.

Of course, in previous editions Force Org also limited unit options in a way similar to rule of 3. But the effect I'm describing was still a factor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

Which, for your Eldar you keep playing martyr for, you have in your index. Or are you suggesting the Index is to be considered defunct?

Awesome, I totally missed that Archons still have Jetbike access in the Index! I'm going to go home and look them up again! And Force Axes/Mauls on my Exarchs!
Note: I'm being sarcastic. Those options don't exist in the Index either.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Its not just nostalgia. It's a clear pattern from looking at army lists. In 5th ed, you looked at the efficiency of a unit within a specific role. In 8th, the roles are much less specific. In 5th, it was very rare for a unit to be good at anti horde, anti MeQ, and anti- armor. Generally it'd be good at just one. But now we regularly have units that are good at 2/3 or even 3/3 of those, but often not as good at any single one as units in 5th were.

That's because no longer can you just say "Y has X Strength/AP, this makes it the best".

And frankly, even going back as far as 6th? Weight of Fire was king, same as it is now.

Of course, in previous editions Force Org also limited unit options in a way similar to rule of 3. But the effect I'm describing was still a factor.

"In previous editions", you also had HQs that moved X unit from Elite/HS/FA to Troops and Unique FO charts for certain factions

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

You bring me 9 hive tyrants I'll give you 9 piles for the meat wagon back.

All jokes aside, the rule of three is kind of dumb as some armies can circumvent it with scornful ease and all it does it curtail some trouble units while doing nothing to touch other real powerhouse unit selections. As is the traditional way for GW it was a fix for a problem that they fixed with other rules but as is their way they never went back to fix the over nerf because GW is equal parts stubborn and over compensating. Just look at the size creep of all the models, got something to prove GW ? - Comedy detected -

 bullyboy wrote:
OK, so we are supposed to get a reveal tomorrow, which is more than likely the new marines that have been shown in the blurry pics recently. However, does this mean we will see a new codex soon?

If we are, how is this going to be presented. They have to add all of the new vanguard marines in Shadowspear, plus the new executioner, new hover tank, new dread, etc. And this is before they even release the Gravis line of Primaris (who I assume won't be in a new codex unless it is released much later).
This codex is going to be enormous.....unless, it becomes Primaris only. Do we think that we are at that point where this will happen? basically a mini-dex that is simply Primaris and gets tacked onto the existing SM codex.

It's definitely going to be interesting from here on out.

It depends. I doubt we're going to see the Codex soon. IF the other blurry units are the Infiltrators, Eliminators (I think I saw them for sure) and Suppresors with their alternate loads, the Codex is closer than I think. If any of them are missing, it's probably further away. It also may not be a new Codex. It could be a supplement like Angels of Death not a Replacement.

The Captain, Librarian, and Lieutenant will get their own datasheet, not be folded into other Captain/Libby/Lt sheets. That's just how they're doing it now instead of bike/pack/armor upgrade options and they're unlikely to quit halfway through. It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

If, as is suspected, they're going to continue to add more Primaris types then it would make sense to wait until releasing a full new codex. Sort of...Why not make people buy books twice? I was thinking it could be another starter box with the new new Primaris, and something else, but that's probably wishful thinking that we might get some updated Eldar in plastic, or heck, even new Khorne or Slaanesh dedicated Marines.

I'd kind of forgotten about Shadowspear being anything other than Chaos to be honest though, as outside of the Librarian the new Primaris didn't interest me much. That's not long out so I don't know we'd see another Space Marine starter quite so quick, given they've been a little better recently with mixing in different races and factions. Maybe not a mini-dex in a starter then, how about another Vigilus style book? There are certainly other factions that could benefit from some Specialist Detachments and something with new Marines and a few tidbits for other armies would be a good way for GW to guarantee more sales.

craggy wrote:
If, as is suspected, they're going to continue to add more Primaris types then it would make sense to wait until releasing a full new codex. Sort of...Why not make people buy books twice? I was thinking it could be another starter box with the new new Primaris, and something else, but that's probably wishful thinking that we might get some updated Eldar in plastic, or heck, even new Khorne or Slaanesh dedicated Marines.

I'd kind of forgotten about Shadowspear being anything other than Chaos to be honest though, as outside of the Librarian the new Primaris didn't interest me much. That's not long out so I don't know we'd see another Space Marine starter quite so quick, given they've been a little better recently with mixing in different races and factions. Maybe not a mini-dex in a starter then, how about another Vigilus style book? There are certainly other factions that could benefit from some Specialist Detachments and something with new Marines and a few tidbits for other armies would be a good way for GW to guarantee more sales.

I liked the Lieutenant as a Deep Striking Primaris HQ, and LOVE the Infiltrators. The Libby was nice for a visual option, but I would have been just as tempted to paint him normal and ignore the Phobos/obscuration. The Eliminators weren't bad, except for the LIMIT:3 part. I didn't like the Suppressors at all - it felt like Plasma Inceptors beat the pants off them.

The "starter" sets almost always have Space Marines and something in them. I think there was one, once, with Guard, other than that I think they've all been some flavor of Space Marine. Dark Angels models have been disappearing from the store lately - Perhaps we'll see them in the next set. As for the other army, that depends on when. If it's before the next Campaign book, it'll likely be one of the Vigilus opposition armies - we've already had Death Guard, Black Legion (Dark Imperium. Shadowspear), Eldar(Wake the Dead), and Nids(Tooth and Claw). I think the only thing we're missing from the Vigilus story are the Orks - That probably means White Scars, or Ravenwing, or either/both in a biker brawl. Of course the next set could come after the next campaign book and Vigilus could be over, which would reset the whole thing and depend on which armies they fluffed into the new campaign with an edge to the armies that didn't make it into this one - Tau or Necrons maybe.

Don't forget Forgefiend (I think it was), Breton - Ad Mech + mini-Knights vs. Necrons.

 Dysartes wrote:
Don't forget Forgefiend (I think it was), Breton - Ad Mech + mini-Knights vs. Necrons.

That was Vigilus? I don't remember that?

Breton wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Don't forget Forgefiend (I think it was), Breton - Ad Mech + mini-Knights vs. Necrons.

That was Vigilus? I don't remember that?

I think Forgebane was before that, but so were a few of the others.

Breton wrote:

It depends. I doubt we're going to see the Codex soon. IF the other blurry units are the Infiltrators, Eliminators (I think I saw them for sure) and Suppresors with their alternate loads, the Codex is closer than I think. If any of them are missing, it's probably further away. It also may not be a new Codex. It could be a supplement like Angels of Death not a Replacement.

We have no indications of Suppressors(the drop troopers) having alternate loadouts. We know Eliminators(snipers) have one though, as they literally put it in the Apocalypse datasheet.

The Captain, Librarian, and Lieutenant will get their own datasheet, not be folded into other Captain/Libby/Lt sheets. That's just how they're doing it now instead of bike/pack/armor upgrade options and they're unlikely to quit halfway through.

We'll see. Apocalypse tells a wildly different story. They showed there that it's fairly easy to do these things.

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Breton wrote:

craggy wrote:
If, as is suspected, they're going to continue to add more Primaris types then it would make sense to wait until releasing a full new codex. Sort of...Why not make people buy books twice? I was thinking it could be another starter box with the new new Primaris, and something else, but that's probably wishful thinking that we might get some updated Eldar in plastic, or heck, even new Khorne or Slaanesh dedicated Marines.

I'd kind of forgotten about Shadowspear being anything other than Chaos to be honest though, as outside of the Librarian the new Primaris didn't interest me much. That's not long out so I don't know we'd see another Space Marine starter quite so quick, given they've been a little better recently with mixing in different races and factions. Maybe not a mini-dex in a starter then, how about another Vigilus style book? There are certainly other factions that could benefit from some Specialist Detachments and something with new Marines and a few tidbits for other armies would be a good way for GW to guarantee more sales.

I liked the Lieutenant as a Deep Striking Primaris HQ, and LOVE the Infiltrators. The Libby was nice for a visual option, but I would have been just as tempted to paint him normal and ignore the Phobos/obscuration. The Eliminators weren't bad, except for the LIMIT:3 part. I didn't like the Suppressors at all - it felt like Plasma Inceptors beat the pants off them.

I had exactly the opposite reaction, Suppressors were the first thing I saw the value in, largely because they're less dependent on the other things in Shadowspear. It took me a while to see the value in the Eliminator/Libby combo or to find a use for the Lieutenant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breton wrote:
It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

I sure hope you're wrong, because Brenton hasn't thought it through. If Lasfusiles are even in the same postal code as Lascannons then Eliminators with Shrouding is suddenly the best AP option in the codex. Maybe not in terms of straight damage output, but because they don't have to worry about being shot off the table turn one.

I'm actually a little worried about how good that combo sounds, GW doesn't let Marines have nice things.

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

Why would that mean this keyword and the entire discipline would go away...?

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Is the minority view. Most people are glad to have it as a safety valve for the worst skew lists.

Others of us think it's a stupid, lazy, bullgak excuse for GW to suck donkey balls at internal codex balance that has a serious negative impact on weaker codexes while not really doing anything to curb stronger codexes AND making soup mandatory rather than simply appealing.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breton wrote:

It depends. I doubt we're going to see the Codex soon. IF the other blurry units are the Infiltrators, Eliminators (I think I saw them for sure) and Suppresors with their alternate loads, the Codex is closer than I think. If any of them are missing, it's probably further away. It also may not be a new Codex. It could be a supplement like Angels of Death not a Replacement.

We have no indications of Suppressors(the drop troopers) having alternate loadouts. We know Eliminators(snipers) have one though, as they literally put it in the Apocalypse datasheet.

We have lots of indications. The Easy To Build kit bundled in a starter set turning into it's stand alone kit has always (as far as I can remember) ended up adding at least one weapon option to the kit. Assault Bolters into Plasma, Bolt Rifles into Stalker and Assault Bolt Rifles, Flamestorm to Auto Bolt Storm...

The Captain, Librarian, and Lieutenant will get their own datasheet, not be folded into other Captain/Libby/Lt sheets. That's just how they're doing it now instead of bike/pack/armor upgrade options and they're unlikely to quit halfway through.

We'll see. Apocalypse tells a wildly different story. They showed there that it's fairly easy to do these things.

Apoc is it's own system, not 40K. And Just about every datasheet in a 40K Codex I've seen does it the way I mentioned - which is why I pointed out "That's how they're doing it now". As near as I can tell they're trying to keep stat-line modification for upgrades to a minimum.

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

Why would that mean this keyword and the entire discipline would go away...?

Oh I think the Keyword definitely hangs around. And it's possible the Power list sticks around, but they haven't been all that frequently putting multiple power lists in one book.

My prediction for the future.

A lot more primaris, because it seems to me that GW is theming each wave after a single archetype of OG marines

Initial release of the Primaris where the Tactical Marines of the range, plus some odd models. New releases that where debut in Shadowspear are generally based around Scout archetype.

So, I think in the future we'll get similar scaled releases based around at least assault marines, devastators, bikes, terminators, and maybe librarians, what with that "Psychic Awakening" abound. Plus chapter specific stuff of course.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
My prediction for the future.

A lot more primaris, because it seems to me that GW is theming each wave after a single archetype of OG marines

Initial release of the Primaris where the Tactical Marines of the range, plus some odd models. New releases that where debut in Shadowspear are generally based around Scout archetype.

So, I think in the future we'll get similar scaled releases based around at least assault marines, devastators, bikes, terminators, and maybe librarians, what with that "Psychic Awakening" abound. Plus chapter specific stuff of course.

I don't think they're modeled after an archetype of OG marines, I think they're modeled after a combat role. I think they're trying to cover the chapter themes as well, so we got Intercessors(UM, IF) and Infiltrators (Raven Guard, Night Lords)

I think we will eventually get similar but not obvious/direct replacements for almost everything we already had. I think Aggressors are the Terminator replacements. I'm hoping we don't get Jet bikes, but we do get regular bikes, or some sort of other calvalry mount that works with Technical Space Marines. Maybe one of those giant wheel bike things from Robotech and General Grievous.

Any news on old Marines? ? ?

How do they fit in and will they even be in the codex?

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

Which is probably when I stop playing space marines. I don't like the primaris enough to build an army around them.

usmcmidn wrote:
Any news on old Marines? ? ?

How do they fit in and will they even be in the codex?

They will be in the codex and benefit of the new abilities.

From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino type thing called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks.

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

I think the SM are about to have all the news toys, all the new rules, and yet we will undoubtedly keep hearing how bad they are because they don't win 100% of the time.
Same old same old...

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

SO its a dreadnaught called a war-suit.

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

"Vanguard operations"... you mean deploy 3 on the edge of the enemy deployment zone and then charge T1?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

Possibly. We will have to wait and see.

But according to the latter part of the article They shall know no fear, Bolter discipline will now be accompanied by "shock assault" giving all marine type units (chaos & GK included) +1 A on turn they charge or are charged.

"To suggest that an Imperial Fist and a White Scar fight in the same way is nearly heresy – and the new codex and codex supplements really lean into the distinct identities of each Chapter to ensure they work on the tabletop the way they do in the lore"

"That’s not even all – Codex: Space Marines also has extensive rules for Successor Chapter Tactics to support the creation of your own Chapter of Space Marines. Whether you’ve always had a particular theme in mind for your Chapter that you’d like to represent on the battlefield, or simply wish to enhance your favoured play style, you can be your own Chapter Master. Simply pick two Successor Tactics from the long list of awesome choices included in the codex and you’re good to go!"

Looks like the supplements will contain a bunch of extra snowflake rules on top the new "catch all ability"
I'm sure there will be huge outcry about more bloat. But hey, IOM is IOM no surprises there...

That being said, If black templars get a unique enough book and get some identity I might actually get some space marines...It looks like they are doing some re-structuring. WIll be very interesting to find out if they do this right or if it turns into a hot garbage mess. My money is on the latter because GWs books/rules have a certain way of ending up that way..

Also they finally doing another kill team starter set with a bunch of terrain. Lots of people have missed out on the first one.

Breton wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
My prediction for the future.

A lot more primaris, because it seems to me that GW is theming each wave after a single archetype of OG marines

Initial release of the Primaris where the Tactical Marines of the range, plus some odd models. New releases that where debut in Shadowspear are generally based around Scout archetype.

So, I think in the future we'll get similar scaled releases based around at least assault marines, devastators, bikes, terminators, and maybe librarians, what with that "Psychic Awakening" abound. Plus chapter specific stuff of course.

I don't think they're modeled after an archetype of OG marines, I think they're modeled after a combat role. I think they're trying to cover the chapter themes as well, so we got Intercessors(UM, IF) and Infiltrators (Raven Guard, Night Lords)

I think we will eventually get similar but not obvious/direct replacements for almost everything we already had. I think Aggressors are the Terminator replacements. I'm hoping we don't get Jet bikes, but we do get regular bikes, or some sort of other calvalry mount that works with Technical Space Marines. Maybe one of those giant wheel bike things from Robotech and General Grievous.

I think what they're rather doing is going with vague company theming, the inital wave release was a battle line release, focused around the units most commonly seen in a battlecompany. the vanguard release is basicly a 10th company focus. presumably wave 3 will be a "elite heavy" wave. designed around 1st company veterns

 Argive wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

Possibly. We will have to wait and see.

But according to the latter part of the article They shall know no fear, Bolter discipline will now be accompanied by "shock assault" giving all marine type units (chaos & GK included) +1 A on turn they charge or are charged.

"To suggest that an Imperial Fist and a White Scar fight in the same way is nearly heresy – and the new codex and codex supplements really lean into the distinct identities of each Chapter to ensure they work on the tabletop the way they do in the lore"

So I assume SW will have to get a new snowflake rule on top to be "unique". I guess what they mean is that the supplements will contain a bunch of extra snowflake rules on top the new "catch all ability".
I'm sure there will be huge outcry about more bloat. But hey, IOM is IOM...

That being said, If black templars get a unique enough book and get some identity I might actually get some space marines...

Also they finally doing another kill team starter set with a bunch of terrain. Lots of people have missed out on the first one.

I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

Just realised there is an entire 14 page strong thread going full hyperbole about this

Nothings certain apart from extra attacks on the charge have dropped yet and people are already loosing their gak.

If my army got 20% of the new models and rules marines are getting this year id be chuffed!

@ Pandabeer - You might be right. It seems they are doing a bunch of re-structuring. We will have to give it until CA drops at the end of the year and sorts out the mess they are about to create before deciding if good or bad overall lol.

 Argive wrote:
Just realised there is an entire 14 page strong thread going full hyperbole about this

Dakka doing what it does best

I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

depends what you wanna play.

If you play your custom chapter and space wolves, your space wolves codex will suffice and you'l want codex space marines for it. if you play just space wolves you'll be able to get away with just space wolves, but you might want codex space marines as a stop gap so you have the data sheets for the vanguard Marines.
if you play space wolves and ultramarines you'll want the space wolves and space marines codex, and proably wanna snag the Ultramarines codex to maximize your options.

if you play whtie scars and ultramarines you CAN proably just buy the one codex but you'll likely want the addityional options in the supplements

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

You buy the codex and each chapter supplement you need.

 Argive wrote:


SO its a dreadnaught called a war-suit.

Its a Sentinel called a warsuit. The pilot is almost as exposed as the Sister in a Penitent Engine and it's armed with a buncha stubbers and a heavy bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

All Phobos ARMIES i.e. in the set every model was a Phobos. So every model was a viable Phobos Only Psychic Power target. Once they're in the main Dex, they're Phobos, Gravis, etc. and only a few are valid targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:


I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

They will all but have to get their own supplement for special characters/units, psychic powers, stratagems, Chapter Tactics, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
.

If my army got 20% of the new models and rules marines are getting this year id be chuffed!

I'd be more than happy to design several Reiver quality units for you, and see how chuffed you are. What army do you play? Do you want Hatred: Soup so you only hate the sub factions that don't make up the bulk of the opposition army, IF they even have any?

Not all of the units are bad. Few of the units have been good. It gets worse when the units are only half finished - missing options.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:


I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

They will all but have to get their own supplement for special characters/units, psychic powers, stratagems, Chapter Tactics, and so on.

Breton wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

All Phobos ARMIES i.e. in the set every model was a Phobos. So every model was a viable Phobos Only Psychic Power target. Once they're in the main Dex, they're Phobos, Gravis, etc. and only a few are valid targets.

Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Pandabeer wrote:


No, because SW etc. have their own codex. The only thing this codex overrides for them is their basic rules (like them getting Angels of Death), their unit access (As it is written now they should get access to Centurions and stuff) and updated point costs if there are any compared to CA 2018. I think their current codici should actually be seen as thier current supplements (minus basic rules etc.).

That may be how it starts, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Non-Codex chapters get a suplement before it's all said and done if not on release day. They'll update the SC/Unit datasheets as well. This much upheaval will justify a new book for UM/WS/etc, it'll justify one for the BA/DA/SW. And it's not going to be much work. A little tweaking, a little cut and paste from their previous Dex and they get an easy money book to sell that brings them into line with the Codex Marines, dovetails correctly/as designed with the core book, and doesn't push all the players into 30 pages of printouts for errata/updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:


Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Two things:

1) No not everybody read it that way, some people understood what I said as what I meant, and in fact replied with the same clarification before you posted your Says Hi - you just probably hadn't gotten far enough through the thread to see it.. Argumentum Ad Populum is Argumentum Ad Populum.

2) I missed Suppresors not being Phobos - they're even worse than I thought.

This actually makes sense with the apocalypse release too.

The datacards for SM does not include any special characters or unique units for any chapter or the special snow flake codexes. It's JUST the base SM units.

So now those units are available for everyone and they can release the special supplement card pack as an additional purchase!

Breton wrote:

The Newman wrote:


Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Two things:

1) No not everybody read it that way, some people understood what I said as what I meant, and in fact replied with the same clarification before you posted your Says Hi - you just probably hadn't gotten far enough through the thread to see it.. Argumentum Ad Populum is Argumentum Ad Populum.

2) I missed Suppresors not being Phobos - they're even worse than I thought.

1) Nobody in this thread has responded to that underlined bit like they knew what you meant, but only one person in the thread has responded to that underlined bit at all. I'll cop to my own hyperbole there, but I stand by my doubt that anyone read that bit the way you meant it. (And again, not disagreeing with what you actually meant here.)

I also stand by the sentiment that the Phobos powers have a place in a more general Marine list and the Eliminators are most of the reason that they do.

2) We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Suppressors, they're the second best thing Marines got out of Shadow Spear after the new Warlord Traits.

The Newman wrote:


1) Nobody in this thread has responded to that underlined bit like they knew what you meant, but only one person in the thread has responded to that underlined bit at all. I'll cop to my own hyperbole there, but I stand by my doubt that anyone read that bit the way you meant it. (And again, not disagreeing with what you actually meant here.)

I also stand by the sentiment that the Phobos powers have a place in a more general Marine list and the Eliminators are most of the reason that they do.

2) We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Suppressors, they're the second best thing Marines got out of Shadow Spear after the new Warlord Traits.

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

1) Brian got it.
1A) A one trick pony requiring somewhere around 20% or more of your Army, and not being nullified, to pull off doesn't really feel like a place.

2) Inceptors outperform them even before the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy, and after they had to make an all new and better Autocannon and including the overwatch rule Marines aren't going to care about because close combat is generally so bad in the whole game. Both the un-supercharged Plasma and the Autocannon have the same STR so vs T isn't going to change.
Vs T4 3+ Plasma Interceptors do 9.05 wounds per game. 24 shots (D3 Average x2 x6) 16 shots (3+ 67%) 10.77 wounds (3+/67%) 9.05 (84% after 3+ -3 6+ save)
vs T4 the Supressors do- (2 shots x 6 turns) 12 shots, 9 hits(67%), 6 wounding hits (67%), 8 wounds after 5+ (-2) saves and D Mods.

Now you could argue the Inceptors have shorter range and don't get to shoot every turn, but at 9 wounds to 8 wounds, even if they only shoot every other turn(unlikely with M12 Jump Packs), they're still doing more wounds, after I get my hypothetical situation that moving with a Heavy, having to jumppack dance around LOS blocking terrain the Suppressors aren't even doing 8 wounds anymore. 12 shots, 6 hits (50%) 4 wounding hits (67%) 5.36 with the -1.

And I still have overcharge and T5 in my Inceptor's back pocket

supressors have a range advantage though so they're less obvious targets, drop a squad of inceptors down and your gonna ahve them in your enemies face, he'll concentrate fire, supressors simply by virtue of their range are less likely to be focused, it's a matter of how we're wired to react

Breton wrote:


1) Brian got it.
1A) A one trick pony requiring somewhere around 20% or more of your Army, and not being nullified, to pull off doesn't really feel like a place.

2) Inceptors outperform them even before the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy, and after they had to make an all new and better Autocannon and including the overwatch rule Marines aren't going to care about because close combat is generally so bad in the whole game. Both the un-supercharged Plasma and the Autocannon have the same STR so vs T isn't going to change.
Vs T4 3+ Plasma Interceptors do 9.05 wounds per game. 24 shots (D3 Average x2 x6) 16 shots (3+ 67%) 10.77 wounds (3+/67%) 9.05 (84% after 3+ -3 6+ save)
vs T4 the Supressors do- (2 shots x 6 turns) 12 shots, 9 hits(67%), 6 wounding hits (67%), 8 wounds after 5+ (-2) saves and D Mods.

Now you could argue the Inceptors have shorter range and don't get to shoot every turn, but at 9 wounds to 8 wounds, even if they only shoot every other turn(unlikely with M12 Jump Packs), they're still doing more wounds, after I get my hypothetical situation that moving with a Heavy, having to jumppack dance around LOS blocking terrain the Suppressors aren't even doing 8 wounds anymore. 12 shots, 6 hits (50%) 4 wounding hits (67%) 5.36 with the -1.

And I still have overcharge and T5 in my Inceptor's back pocket

Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

Yeah it is bad. Most armies lack really good basic close combat units. Very few Fight units have the volume of attacks, and armor save mods to compare to their shooting. Shooting units can shoot more often than fighting units can fight. They need a higher number of attacks than the shooting units have shots to make up for that. They don't. Most close combat centric units have 2 Attacks a bonus attack for a chainsword/combatknife/equivalent at Base Strength, and 0 Save Mod every other to 2 turns out of three. While their shooty brethren shoot twice at base strength or a little higher with a -1 save mod. Even at 2 turns out of three 6 -0 Attacks is not as good as 6 -1 shots. The game used to have bonus attacks for two CCW's, and charging to make up the shortfall of a regroup before re-charging turn. The new Marine rule... what's it called. It's just them putting the +1A for charging back into the game reworded to work with Characters that Heroically Intervene instead of Charging.

you also get it if you are charged. so effectively what it means is +1 attack in the first round of combat

BrianDavion wrote:
you also get it if you are charged. so effectively what it means is +1 attack in the first round of combat

But you still don't for two CCW's i.e. a pistol and a sword.

Breton wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

Yeah it is bad. Most armies lack really good basic close combat units. Very few Fight units have the volume of attacks, and armor save mods to compare to their shooting. Shooting units can shoot more often than fighting units can fight. They need a higher number of attacks than the shooting units have shots to make up for that. They don't. Most close combat centric units have 2 Attacks a bonus attack for a chainsword/combatknife/equivalent at Base Strength, and 0 Save Mod every other to 2 turns out of three. While their shooty brethren shoot twice at base strength or a little higher with a -1 save mod. Even at 2 turns out of three 6 -0 Attacks is not as good as 6 -1 shots. The game used to have bonus attacks for two CCW's, and charging to make up the shortfall of a regroup before re-charging turn. The new Marine rule... what's it called. It's just them putting the +1A for charging back into the game reworded to work with Characters that Heroically Intervene instead of Charging.

I think you're playing a whole different game. Close combat units, and even units that aren't close combat units but are cheap and fast, offer really good control of the board and zoning, and a target that must be serviced. In addition, if they touch something like a tank or a gun team, they usually have made themselves worthwhile. It's cheap and easy suppression if Guardsmen run up to try to punch a Land Raider. Real close combat units with lots of attacks that can charge a line, mulch through it, and then consolidate into the next are definitely really good [Boyz, Genestealers].

And the whole falling back thing isn't usually a problem, you can take prisoners really easily so you're hard to shoot at [or they're really counting on a morale failure] and the movement you can do can be use to loop a ton of units in melee until your heavy hitters get into position. The only things that aren't super vulnerable to CQC are super heavies.

I think the reality is inbetween. Assault is good on units like grots and wraiths. Marines lack such units save wulfen. BA only have a captain.

Breton wrote:

The Newman wrote:


1) Nobody in this thread has responded to that underlined bit like they knew what you meant, but only one person in the thread has responded to that underlined bit at all. I'll cop to my own hyperbole there, but I stand by my doubt that anyone read that bit the way you meant it. (And again, not disagreeing with what you actually meant here.)

I also stand by the sentiment that the Phobos powers have a place in a more general Marine list and the Eliminators are most of the reason that they do.

2) We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Suppressors, they're the second best thing Marines got out of Shadow Spear after the new Warlord Traits.

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

1) Brian got it.
1A) A one trick pony requiring somewhere around 20% or more of your Army, and not being nullified, to pull off doesn't really feel like a place.

2) Inceptors outperform them even before the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy, and after they had to make an all new and better Autocannon and including the overwatch rule Marines aren't going to care about because close combat is generally so bad in the whole game. Both the un-supercharged Plasma and the Autocannon have the same STR so vs T isn't going to change.
Vs T4 3+ Plasma Interceptors do 9.05 wounds per game. 24 shots (D3 Average x2 x6) 16 shots (3+ 67%) 10.77 wounds (3+/67%) 9.05 (84% after 3+ -3 6+ save)
vs T4 the Supressors do- (2 shots x 6 turns) 12 shots, 9 hits(67%), 6 wounding hits (67%), 8 wounds after 5+ (-2) saves and D Mods.

Now you could argue the Inceptors have shorter range and don't get to shoot every turn, but at 9 wounds to 8 wounds, even if they only shoot every other turn(unlikely with M12 Jump Packs), they're still doing more wounds, after I get my hypothetical situation that moving with a Heavy, having to jumppack dance around LOS blocking terrain the Suppressors aren't even doing 8 wounds anymore. 12 shots, 6 hits (50%) 4 wounding hits (67%) 5.36 with the -1.

And I still have overcharge and T5 in my Inceptor's back pocket

1) Brian got what you meant in the first post, which was eight or nine posts back from the line I underlined and specifically called out. The one where you said "Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing." Nobody else has responded to that. I still think it's a terrible way to phrase what you meant, but eh; context is a thing.

1a) Emperor only knows what a six-man Lasfusile Eliminator squad is going to cost, but it would have to be 300 points to be 20% of a list along side a Libby. That ... ok, I don't like how plausible the back-of-the-envelope math on that actually sounds if the Lasfusile is in the vicinity of a Lascannon.

Still, a dedicated AT platform that can't be targetted without a flubbed 6+ psychic test or getting a psycher close enough for a Deny test (and then succeeding...) sounds pretty solid to me. Especially when we still have no idea what the 40k profile of a Lasfusile is going to look like. It could just as easily look more like a Suppressor Cannon or a Centurion Missile Launcher than a Lascannon and be better against a wide range of targets.

2) I wouldn't argue about getting more chances to shoot, but I would point out that you're comparing a single Plasma Inceptor to a single Suppressor when they're 60 points to 35. You have to compare 7 Inceptors to 12 Suppressors for that to come out even. Using your own results that's 63 wounds for the Inceptors and 96 for the Suppressors. It's 70 for the Suppressors if they move every turn, but they have enough range to make that unlikely.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Serious question: how many people actually are running more than 3 units of Terminators, Land Raiders, etc in competitive circumstances(read: where the Rule of 3 actually exists)?

Skitarii players had to sort it out thanks to losing the Onager Squadron rules. You'll be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

Do you really think those options won't come back when kits get released?

Kits get released? That doesn't happen for DE very often. Been waiting to get our hq options back since 5th. Hasn't happened

Breton wrote:

 Argive wrote:


SO its a dreadnaught called a war-suit.

Its a Sentinel called a warsuit. The pilot is almost as exposed as the Sister in a Penitent Engine and it's armed with a buncha stubbers and a heavy bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

An Invictor Tactical Warsuit is, in essence, a Redemptor Dreadnought that has been stripped back and redesigned with lighter, sound-dampening materials for use on covert operations. - GW community website

You were saying ?

& I play the army where all of our iconic "elite infantry" is 15 years old fine cast sculpt. Can you guess which xenos that is??? It rhymes with Craftworld Eldar.
So yeah Id take some new poorly ruled plastic kits over poorly ruled finecats kits any day of the week