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OK, so we are supposed to get a reveal tomorrow, which is more than likely the new marines that have been shown in the blurry pics recently. However, does this mean we will see a new codex soon?

If we are, how is this going to be presented. They have to add all of the new vanguard marines in Shadowspear, plus the new executioner, new hover tank, new dread, etc. And this is before they even release the Gravis line of Primaris (who I assume won't be in a new codex unless it is released much later).
This codex is going to be enormous.....unless, it becomes Primaris only. Do we think that we are at that point where this will happen? basically a mini-dex that is simply Primaris and gets tacked onto the existing SM codex.

It's definitely going to be interesting from here on out.

Its gotta be a Primaris only book no?

There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

I think it's worth mentioning that Shadowspear really only added three units:
Suppressors, Infiltrators, and Eliminators

The Lt, Captain, and Librarian are just tagged as "In Phobos Armor".

I did a count awhile back as to how many units are in the Marine book. Excluding named/Chapter specific characters/units(the Emperor's Champion for example)?

68 unit entries.
Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?

Cutting some of those units down would free up space in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

 oni wrote:
There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Or 3) Retire some Firstborn entries to the Index and consolidate others into a single entry in order to make room for the new Primaris toys. There's easily like 12 units they could do this with.

Well, the minimarines will be retired to some index or legacy PDF at some point, though I doubt it will happen yet.

Lemondish wrote:

 oni wrote:
There's an egregious lack of foresight with the Primaris Marines.

It was fine when it was just the Intercessors and a small handful of other units, but unfortunately their blind greed has pushed them into a corner they cannot escape from.

They cannot remove Primaris from Codex: SM's because they've chosen to integrate them too deeply into the standard SM lore and rules.

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Or 3) Retire some Firstborn entries to the Index and consolidate others into a single entry in order to make room for the new Primaris toys. There's easily like 12 units they could do this with.

You can say that but at this point GW either need to go full comitment and squat the specific codex's or every marine chapter would be the same as primaris marines don't outside of UM have any chapter or legion specific units

Without mini marines you don't have any justification for the subfaction codex's.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Ice_can wrote:

You can say that but at this point GW either need to go full comitment and squat the specific codex's or every marine chapter would be the same as primaris marines don't outside of UM have any chapter or legion specific units

Yet.

I don't have any inside knowledge or anything. I just think it rather telling that we're getting an Iron Hands special character within the next few months(a Chapter that previously only had a flipping upgrade kit from GW; their transfer sheets and other stuff was from FW and only came about with the damn Heresy stuff!). And it's not like Ultramarines have that much specific to them: it's, so far, just the Victrix Guard(who only come with an Ultramarines character to boot!)

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

I definatly think GW's going to need to reevaluate how they present their datasheets within an edition or two.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

 Ratius wrote:
Its gotta be a Primaris only book no?

Primaris is the new black (or it should be).

A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that Shadowspear really only added three units:
Suppressors, Infiltrators, and Eliminators

The Lt, Captain, and Librarian are just tagged as "In Phobos Armor".

I did a count awhile back as to how many units are in the Marine book. Excluding named/Chapter specific characters/units(the Emperor's Champion for example)?

68 unit entries.
Of those unit entries, there's a disgusting amount of overlap or things that could reasonably be done as simple wargear swaps.Why do we need 4 different profiles for a Captain(Captain, Terminator Armor, Cataphractii Armor, Bike) or 3 for a Land Raider(there is NO rule change between them) or 2 for Terminator Squads(literally the only difference between the two: Assault Squads have the Storm Shield rule...)?

Cutting some of those units down would free up space in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

As I see it, GW has two options:
1. Drastically decrease the size of the lore section and remove a lot of art to make room for all of the new unit content.
2. Split it into two volumes and sell it for $100.00. Vol.1 is all lore and art. Vol.2 is all rules.

Option 3: Clean up the profiles section. It's disgustingly repetitive and a lot of it could be revised with very little issue.

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

Yeah. One Captain entry handling the Bike and Jump Pack and another to handle "Terminator" makes more sense.

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

Agreed, it pretty much has to be a Primaris dedicated book, that any chapter can draw from. It does make some redundancy between other Codexes and this Primaris book, but I think that's far less of an issue than other options.

Mainly that the regular SM codex is bloated already, and there are loads of Datasheets that need properly publishing between Shadowspear, Repulsor Executioner, the new blurry units, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. It would make a complete SM codex impossible imo.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

I'm going even further with the Terminator HQ consolidation. Just let the Captain buy whatever weapons are available and you're gold. Hell it strikes me as odd that, if a Chapter had 4 suits of regular Terminator armor and 1 Cata with nothing but the Autocannon, they don't just pair up that Cata with the other four suits. It's too stupid and just needs to go.

Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
A Primaris-only codex wouldn’t be a horrible idea - if it was done in the same vein that Militarium Tempestus was done back in 7E. I.E., you could still use the Space Marine codex if you want a combined force of oldmarines and primaris, or you could go Primaris only. Just put a clause in the book stating openly “New Primaris unit’s listed in this book can be added to a battle forged Space Marine army” - sort of like how Brood brothers work to allow IG units in a GSC force.

I mean, right now if you want to play a IG-Heavy GSC force or a Ynarri force with Craftworld & Dark Eldar, you HAVE to buy two separate Codexes. As big as the SM codex has got, splitting it out into two isn’t exactly unfair.

The difference is that you can reasonably play an IG heavy GSC force without ever taking the IG book. The GSC book has quite a few options in there(Sentinels, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Heavy Weapons Squads, Brood Brother Squads themselves) from the outset.

I really don't think that splitting Primaris off would work. People these days are far too whiny. The Stormcast got shafted because of this, they had smaller books and now every Chamber was jammed in rather than getting smaller books with thematic relics, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been saying this about Land Raiders for a while. What really needs to be done is finding a reasonably done price for the chassis and the guns can simply be bought. Regarding Captains I overall agree, especially with there being three different Terminator entries yet there aren't for the different Mk Power Armors. We can mostly lose that in favor of the original two Terminator entries.

Honestly, I think you could get away with a single Terminator Captain entry but allow for them to buy Cataphractii instead and the bespoked rules would tell you the difference--or hell, you could give the unit entry an "Indomitus Pattern" and "Cataphractii Pattern" statline.
Same thing for Terminators themselves I feel. It'd also make for some more flexible squads and a reason to buy a 10 squad and combat squad it out rather than just...ignoring Terminators like done now.


My 'dream' for the book is that we see some of the HQ/Elite bloat handled. Sternguard and Vanguard are pointless right now; I'd rather see them rolled into the "Company Veterans" unit entry and having the rules associated with the units put into that. I'd dump the Attack Bikes unit entry and instead make Bike Squads able to be made purely of Attack Bikes if you so choose. Land Raiders, obviously, would get compacted together--as would Venerable, Ironclad, and normal Dreadnoughts.

Yeah they can do that to the marine codex as soon as everyone else looses the abilities to take 3 tanks for 1 datasheet nonsense.
Having all those dreadnaught datasheets etc arn't redundant aslong as the rule of 3 exsists in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or we could give them the Xenos HQ fix.

The Bike Captain can be trimmed down to one line - he just has a Force Lance.

They can just stop selling the JP captain and drop that from the book.

And so forth.

Because consolidation is great!

(In case it was missed, I'm saying be careful what you wish for. SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes...)

Three Terminator armors having not much difference is perfectly fine for consolidation for a statline. OR are you saying we need different rules for the different Mk Power Armors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They ALL have separate kits after all!

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

He has a point enjoy making a primaris smash captain. Or a primaris anything with a Thunderhammer oh yeah they can't even take basic things like a chainsword FFS.

Serious question: how many people actually are running more than 3 units of Terminators, Land Raiders, etc in competitive circumstances(read: where the Rule of 3 actually exists)?

Skitarii players had to sort it out thanks to losing the Onager Squadron rules. You'll be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

I should have put a TLDR in my post, to point out what I was saying: that you should be careful what you wish for. Because SM HQs have tons of options that were ripped out of other codexes.

Do you really think those options won't come back when kits get released?

If the theory is that there is going to be a Gravis wave down the line, there is no point doing Codex: Primaris Marines (or whatever) yet.

Wait for that wave, then you've got all three types of Primaris (standard, Phobos, Gravis) in one book.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Serious question: how many people actually are running more than 3 units of Terminators, Land Raiders, etc in competitive circumstances(read: where the Rule of 3 actually exists)?

Skitarii players had to sort it out thanks to losing the Onager Squadron rules. You'll be fine.

I've run a lot more than 3 dreadnaughts in a list on multiple occasions.
I've also seen lists with multiple squads of sternguard and vanguard combining them into 1 datasheet would invalidate that players list.

You can say it's just the high points units that currently have bad rules, but some of the suggestions go as far as making every captain the same datasheet. NO Thanks atleast untill GW sort out the terrible ness that is Lieutenant Wargear choice oh the CC focused HQ without and invulnerable save but no you can't have a storm shield or Terminator Armour.

While having generic tac, roid vamprie tactical squad and emo secret heretic tactical squads is daft, it's a problem GW need to figure out as if primaris is the future its just intercessors with different paint jobs.

Either they admit that primaris is it and everyone playing marines will be playing the same army or they arn't actually loosing old marines or they just don't have a plan and are winging it and it's going ti have another edition or more before marines will be playing from a functional codex.

Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

 Dysartes wrote:
If the theory is that there is going to be a Gravis wave down the line, there is no point doing Codex: Primaris Marines (or whatever) yet.

Wait for that wave, then you've got all three types of Primaris (standard, Phobos, Gravis) in one book.

Don’t forget the upcoming Mark X.III Teflon Armor.

If A Gravis update is coming in the next couple of months, I could see a delay in putting out an update SM codex, but otherwise, you just need a sensible cutoff point where enough models have been added that rolling them into one book is just plain needed.

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Ice_can wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Limit per detachment and per army should be on a Unit's datasheet, not a global rule. Rule of Three is bad because its a work around. Lots of Units in the game should be 1 per army, many others 1 per detachment.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Rule of three is stupid and should be removed.

Nine hive tyrants?

Well if they would properly cost them maybe, but yes it does limit spamming some of GW most egregious example of WTFBBQ Point's costing of units.

Limit per detachment and per army should be on a Unit's datasheet, not a global rule. Rule of Three is bad because its a work around. Lots of Units in the game should be 1 per army, many others 1 per detachment.

I would see that as more of an improvement of the rule rather than the complete rescinding of the rule.